high velocity with cast.

[runfiverun]

there is enough interest to open a thread and discuss this openly.
it's NOT about why we CAN'T do it.
it's about what we NEED to do to make it happen, the steps we took to make it happen in our rifles, loads, brass prep, and the expectations we have of our rifles.
what worked and what didn't questions and answers nothing more.


ANY NEGATIVE POSTS OR BICKERING WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE THREAD, WITHOUT EXPLANATION AND THERE WILL BE WARNINGS AND POINTS ISSUED.
READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

let's get after it.

[btroj]

I'm game.

I know lots of stuff that doesn't work. I see this as a long term quest for now. Lots of stuff needs to be looked at.

My issue now is brass quality. Or at least I think it is. I'm seeing runout where I don't want any.

[tomme boy]

How about the expanders that we use. I have always thought that they were helping in one way but hurting in another. Meaning that we need to get a set amount of tension to hold the bullet. So to get that, I use an RCBS neck expander. It works well. But is there a better way to expand the neck and keep it straight at the same time?

I do not like the expanders that come with a FL die or neck die. I usually take them out and use the Neck expanders only. My groups have most certainly improved. I feel it has to be because of more consistent neck tension. I know everyone has different ways to achieve the same thing, but this is something that really seems to help make my ammo more accurate weather it is cast or jacketed.

[geargnasher]

Tomme, I use the RCBS expanders, but you are at the mercy of the alignment of your reloading press because like most dedicated expanders, the body is sort of generic and there's lots of room around the case body/head for things to get really crooked, like if you case isn't in exactly the same place in your shellholder every time, or the ram is sloppy, or the top plate isn't square to the ram. I've also found that I get straighter necks if I screw the spud snugly against the inside top of the die. Another member mentioned the advantage of the Forster Coax press because it lets the case head wiggle a little bit and prevents binding. Bent necks due to tooling problems is one of those areas that DOES matter a great deal when velocity and pressure is pushed up.

What would be the berries is a sliding-sleeve type, cartridge specific, neck expanding die that keeps the spud and case body in perfect alignment while expanding the necks.

Another "works for me" thing is not to size your necks too small to begin with, either hone the neck of a FL die and partial-size (best way I know of to size the necks so they're straight with the body and everything is fully-supported during the resizing process), or use a bushing die system so that the necks are minimally worked. Then you can just "kiss" the neck with the RCBS expander spud and get just enough bell to start the gas check. By "kiss" I mean maybe a thousandth or two at most interference fit between spud and inside of the resized neck.

Gear

[Yodogsandman]

runfiverun, can you define high velocity for the purposes of this thread?

[Bullshop]

Maybe everyone has a different idea of what high velocity is with cast boolits.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to first define what high velocity is.
Perhaps even define degrees of high velocity like #1 high velocity - 18-2100 fps #2 super high velocity 21-2700 fps and #3 mega high velocity 2700- 3000 fps and #4 super mega high velocity 3000-3500 fps and finally #5 light speed.
Its not really an even playing field if we say that anything over 1300 fps is high velocity. I do actually have one load that will fall in the #5 category.

[JeffinNZ]

Bullshop makes a good point. Maybe define high velocity. I have a load for me .223 Rem and my .303 Brit both of which exceed 2300fps with great results. Is that HV though?

I can't help but think this thread will go in one direction however.

[rsrocket1]

Agreed Bullshop,
1800 seems like it's pretty easy, I do it with light plain based cast bullets. I have yet to even try 2000 fps but would like to get up to 26-2700 fps without going to extreme measures or at least see what a reasonable velocity should be. Maybe a post at the top stating what is easily attainable so we can see what we should be striving towards.

[runfiverun]

it's anything beyond normal cast velocity's in your rifle.
in the 30 cal's that would certainly anything above 2200 fps.
if you are approaching jacketed velocity's, your for sure high velocity with cast.

for instance I shoot 2400 fps in my 308's my 30-30's and 358 Winchester.
I shoot 2800 in my AR and in my ruger varmint 223.
my 22-250 and 220 swift both shoot near 2800 also, that is not near jacketed velocity's, but is certainly above 'normal' cast velocity's and takes some work to get them there.

the discussion will center on what to look for in your rifle, and what to do with your brass etc to get there.
I.E.
a 2 sided discussion on just boolit design and alloy manipulation for each one would take up 5 pages alone and they both could be correct.
I have the two different designs in hand right now to try in a rifle, I know one will go fast, I need to figure out how to make the second one do it too....
are the same techniques going to work for it ???
maybe, maybe I need a powder one step slower to duplicate the results.

Dan's numbers work for me.
we need to remember a 180 in a 308 won't get past 2700 no matter what we do.

[geargnasher]

I'll let R5R answer for himself, but I tend to define "High Velocity" as somewhere in between the point where people typically have trouble maintaining their arbitrary and personal accuracy standard (another thing that needs defining???) and full-out jacketed velocity of the cartridge with a given weight bullet. HV, by definition, seems to require a major reworking of either the rifle (slower twist barrel is a big help), and/or a great deal of refinement of one's tools and techniques to get really good accuracy past a certain common point.

Gear

Edit to add Run posted and this is now redundant.

[cbrick]

One thing (of many) I would like to see discussed is annealing. I've played with it & worked to get the process down & I have then Ken Light BC-1000 Annealer that takes much of hassle out. The biggest problem with it as I see it getting a batch of brass all consistent. By consistent I mean every piece of brass annealed the same uniformly all the way around. I never got the process down to where I would trust my match brass after annealing & opted for new brass instead. If the torches aren't set to exactly the identical flame as last time or the angle of the flame isn't exact you have different annealing not only between batches but between individual cases in the same batch.

118428

Obviously annealing works or the factory couldn't make the brass, it's annealed a few times as a normal part of manufacture. I've decided annealing is an art form and takes the right touch.

So my question is: Has anyone here done serious accuracy/grouping with brass they've annealed and what were the results, better, worse, the same?

Rick

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I may not have much to contribute But I am SURE looking forward to following along!

[wmitty]

Are we going to be looking at a specific caliber, or is the full spectrum open for discussion? Am I correct in assuming we're talking gas checked lube grooved boolits?

[RickinTN]

I sure do welcome this thread. I'm working with a few 30 calibers. I'm thinking I need to successfully tackle the 2,200 to 2,400 fps range first then work from there. I do use bushing neck sizers and I'm thinking to size the case as little as possible and have whatever tool used to expand the mouth to gently "kiss" it as mentioned.
Bullet design is where my mind is most of the time right now and I think I'm learning that maybe alloy investigation for me could be a parallel learning curve. Almost like looking for the better mousetrap and bait at the same time.
I'm all ears (eyes) and looking forward to where this goes.
Thanks all,
Rick

[runfiverun]

cb the best way I have found to get around it is to use a temp indicator and time.
once I hit the 700-f temp zone that's all I want, I time how long it takes to get there and use the same amount on each case.
I don't like a dead soft anneal on my cast loads.
I like the case necks to have a couple of sizings done to them after an anneal, you'll feel the difference in the seating die.
I sort my loads according to that feel usually the vast majority have a resistance to them, one or two slip right in, and a couple take some oomph to seat.
the too easy and too tight get pulled into their own group for shooting together.

[detox]

Remington brass is softer than most and more consistant in hardness. I have a new batch of Lapua brass and some cases are harder than others of same batch...even after I anneal them.

Remington is my favorite brass. Butch's has new Remington unprimed 30-06 brass in stock. These can be formed to make other calibers such as the 308, 7mm-08. After forming the necks can be turned to fit tighter to chamber of some loose fitting factory rifles.

The 30-06 has enough case capacity for higher velocities.

Correction: Butch's has Remington 30-06 brass in stock.

[Bullshop]

"""Dan's numbers work for me.
we need to remember a 180 in a 308 won't get past 2700 no matter what we do. """
I was not trying to set the bar with the numbers I posted but just only using them as an example to make my point.
I guess if we are calibrating a bar to determine what high velocity is and for the sake of discussion there would also have to be a few caliber groups such as small - 22 to 25 medium 26 to 35 and large 36 to 50.

[RED333]

Gona be reading and watching, so I am thinking of using my lead to anneal, I can control the temp,
control the time and control the temp of the water to cool them or air cool, ideas?

[runfiverun]

either way,, they seemed good to me.
you do run into degrees of difficulty along the way.
airc it was Felix that told me it was about every 250-300 fps.
21-24-2700 seemed to each hold an accuracy node.
as you found each one you found accuracy again about that much higher and had to work harder and harder on narrowing down the details to move to the next one.

[btroj]

Rick, I wonder the same thing. I figure a couple of firings will even them out a bit.

OK Run, you sort somewhat by effort to seat a bullet. How does that work when trying different loads?

[runfiverun]

red the cooling doesn't matter it's the heat.
the time of the heat isn't overly important it's how much.
you have to get to between 700-715 for the molecules to re-align in brass and for the annealing to be done.
I use time to get the temps to the same point.
if a case takes more or less time it is different than the rest of the batch and doesn't belong.

[runfiverun]

not sure, but it's like varying your neck tension.
I try to keep the anneal consistent in the batch.

ever split a case neck? where did that shot go. [probably low]
imagine half of your necks splitting same effect.

[btroj]

I use my fingers and time as a guage. I twirl the case neck in the flame and count for a set numbers. I determine the number by how long a case takes to get warm enough I don't want to hold on and go from there. Case necks never glow even a bit red and color change barely gets past shoulder. I want to remove stress from the neck but not soften it dead soft.

[brotherdarrell]

A topic I constantly trying to get smarter at. It seems to me it almost requires it own sub-forum. :twisted:

My own high velocity interests pretty much revolve around the 22 calibers. I never fails to amaze me what matters and what doesn't. Why does a boolit with a good static fit shoot like garbage yet another that appears to be totally un-suited shoot so well? Why do I get great accuracy at velocity with the 4895's yet moving to 4064 accuracy is dismal at any velocity?

There are certain things that I know work yet I don't know why. Some of the recent threads regarding the 30 xcb have started to shed some light on some of the things I have been running into and I hope they can continue.

Darrell

[geargnasher]

I too sort loaded ammo into batches by 'feel' of the press handle if I'm going to shoot for groups. It's one of those things that makes a huge difference in point-of-impact. Mix them up and the aggregate group is huge.

Seeing a trend here among "things that matter at HV": Straight necks, consistent neck tension on the bullet, and Detox brought up another really good one, loaded neck clearance. How about fitting the brass to the chamber straight the first time and not messing that up with a FL sizing? Sort of a given to many, but maybe not to all? Short version, use fireformed brass and when you do "bump" the shoulder back, .002" is plenty.

Here's a question: How much neck clearance can you get away with and still shoot MOA or better at "HV"?

Gear

[btroj]

I bet neck clearance isn't as big an issue as it would seem. Look at what some do with factory rifles.
I just had an epiphany of sorts. Saw .006 runout on a few loaded rounds. My sizing bushing was full of gunk from case forming and the bushing was also held too snug in the die. I like to let them float a bit, gives less runout. Case has .002 to .003 after sizing now. It stays the same after using an M-die. Yes Gear, an M-die. It isn't expanding anything, just putting a very slight bell on the case mouth to prevent any bullet shaving. I'm using a .333 bushing with .0125 necks. I would use my .335 bushing but it doesn't give any tension on my .3095 bullets. The .333 gives roughly .0015 tension. Not much but it holds bullets in place, can't spin them with my fingers like I can if I use a .335 bushing.

[geargnasher]

I use my fingers and time as a guage. I twirl the case neck in the flame and count for a set numbers. I determine the number by how long a case takes to get warm enough I don't want to hold on and go from there. Case necks never glow even a bit red and color change barely gets past shoulder. I want to remove stress from the neck but not soften it dead soft.

I soot the necks and "draw" them in a 700F pot of lead for a count, then into a small bucket of water to stop the movement of heat. You can go to an almost full anneal if you hold them too long, or dip for a one-two count to just barely draw out a little brittleness. CBRick has mentioned using Vice Grip pliers and a micrometer to check relative anneal, set the "lock" to a few thousandths below the neck diameter and squeeze the neck until the pliers lock, then release and check if the neck sprung back to round or if it deformed. Crude but with a little common sense applied, it is a very effective gauge.

Gear

[btroj]

Clean case necks merely means no powder gas leaked down the sides of the neck, nothing more. No different than when I load to higher pressures. Low pressure gives dirty case necks, higher pressure gives clean case necks. This has no bearing on accuracy potential of either load.

Gear, I did the lead method once. Once. Got lead stuck to cases and swore it off for good.

[geargnasher]

Hence the soot. Also, I said "lead", not alloy containing tin, I should have been more specific because we use the term "lead" quite generically to mean pretty much any bullet alloy. Tin "tins" brass like crazy. Been there, done that.

Gear

[Bullshop]

On annealing cases I am afraid of over doing the heads so I decap and submerge the heads in water. With just a little more than the area to be annealed out of the water I use a propane torch and judge the heat by the color it takes on. When they get the right glow I bump them over into the water to stop any further migration of heat.

On high velocity 22s I have found it critical to get the gas check to be a perfect square fit. For those I have made a small punch with a rounded end to put a slight flare on the gas checks before seating. That in conjunction with a gas check seater seems to produce about as square a base as I can get without deforming the boolit base installing the gas check.
These two things seem to have greatly reduced the number of unexplained flyers I get when pushing 22 cal boolits up near the limit in pressure that the alloy hardness will tolerate.

[451whitworth]

I've had success at 2550 fps in two rifles/cartridges. The 218 Bee and 250-3000. By that I mean accuracy and no leading. Both used oven heat treat WW alloy & RCBS neck expander die with custom made expander plugs of bullet diameter. Maybe the slow 1-14" and 1-16" twists are the reason for success in those two but I haven't done it with any 30 cal rifle yet. An interesting note to the 250-3000 is I couldn't get decent accuracy or case life with R-P or WW brass. I started forming LC .308/7.62x51 to 250 Savage with a RCBS forming die set that I got for a song and outside neck turning the brass. Results literally turned 180* with that move.

[cbrick]

Gear, the idea of using vise grips to check neck annealing belongs to Ken Light and yes, sounds kind of crude but it does work. Here is a really good article on annealing where what, why, how, when to anneal is discussed. Lot's good tips and cautions.

http://lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm By Ken Light.

I'd still like to know if anyone has done a side by side accuracy test of annealed brass against virgin brass and fired brass not annealed. The results would certainly indicate a level of success of the annealing.

Rick

[detox]

When annealing fired cases in hot lead, do not remove the fired primer. Trapped air prevents lead from entering inside neck.

[Bigslug]

This one's gonna have to wait until after deer season for me, but the project I've got is a 218 grain bore rider for a .30-06 that hasn't found it's "zone" yet. Necks have been turned and alloys have been tried, but so far it's not wanting to be more than a 1600-1700fps bullet. Quenching/heat treating is next on the list.

[cbrick]

Ah yes, the single most boring thing I do in my loading room is size gas checks but I do it anyway simply because it gives the best possible flat against the bullet base that's possible. I take the concave out of the check completely and add a flair to the sides of the check. Checks slip on easily and are held tight against the bullet base by the punch as it's crimped on.

Big PITA but worth it for accuracy, NO slightly crooked checks because they went on to tight. Bullet exit at the muzzle is even all around the bullet.

Rick

[detox]

Gear, the idea of using vise grips to check neck annealing belongs to Ken Light and yes, sounds kind of crude but it does work. Here is a really good article on annealing where what, why, how, when to anneal is discussed. Lot's good tips and cautions.

http://lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm By Ken Light.

I'd still like to know if anyone has done a side by side accuracy test of annealed brass against virgin brass and fired brass not annealed. The results would certainly indicate a level of success of the annealing.

Rick

According to a guy in another forum, "too much neck tension can size bullet down smaller". He turned all his necks very thin .010. He also had a smaller match chamber (30BR) so he had to turn his necks for snug chamber fit.

[detox]

This one's gonna have to wait until after deer season for me, but the project I've got is a 218 grain bore rider for a .30-06 that hasn't found it's "zone" yet. Necks have been turned and alloys have been tried, but so far it's not wanting to be more than a 1600-1700fps bullet. Quenching/heat treating is next on the list.

Linotype is harder and makes a purdy well filled out bullet. I have allways got better accuracy using linotype "IF" bullet was fitted to free bore diameter correctly(.0001-.0005 smaller) and jammed into rifling.

[detox]

For high velocity the lead bullet must have a long bearing surface just like the taper nose design of the NOE 30XCB 165gr. Bore rider designs have less lead for rifling to grab hold...I think. Bullet must fit free bore and throat correctly for best accuracy.

Support your local cast bullet.

[btroj]

Ah yes, the single most boring thing I do in my loading room is size gas checks but I do it anyway simply because it gives the best possible flat against the bullet base that's possible. I take the concave out of the check completely and add a flair to the sides of the check. Checks slip on easily and are held tight against the bullet base by the punch as it's crimped on.

Big PITA but worth it for accuracy, NO slightly crooked checks because they went on to tight. Bullet exit at the muzzle is even all around the bullet.

Rick

Gee Rick, sounds like a neat project for a guy with a lathe. Or maybe someone getting a lathe.

Getting checks square on my 30 Sil bullets is a pain. They are just snug enough to be a problem. A punch to open the checks a bit is what I need.

[cbrick]

This one's gonna have to wait until after deer season for me, but the project I've got is a 218 grain bore rider for a .30-06 that hasn't found it's "zone" yet. Necks have been turned and alloys have been tried, but so far it's not wanting to be more than a 1600-1700fps bullet. Quenching/heat treating is next on the list.

Been my experience that accuracy will go down as velocity goes up with bore riders. I believe in the concept of bore riders but the catch is that it has to ride the rifling perfectly and few really do. Too many variations of actual rifling height, but if you can get one that fits perfectly it probably could be bumped up some.

Rick

[btroj]

I would love to see someone get 2600 fps in a 30 cal with a traditional bore rider. I doubt I ever will but it would be a challenge.

[cbrick]

Gee Rick, sounds like a neat project for a guy with a lathe. Or maybe someone getting a lathe.

Getting checks square on my 30 Sil bullets is a pain. They are just snug enough to be a problem. A punch to open the checks a bit is what I need.

I know someone that is getting a lathe, perhaps you could talk to him about making punches? :mrgreen:

I have a punch made for every caliber that I cast for. Made them out of center punches because they are tapered, as you make them shorter they get larger in diameter, the trick is to get them exactly the right diameter for the caliber. Then put a very slight chamfer on the end to slightly angle the side of the check.

It really is a PITA but what possible good could a perfect crown be if the bullet that exits it has a crooked check?

Rick

Here's another type I made from a Lyman "M" die for use in the Rockchucker, this one is for 35 caliber. The anvil is a RCBS comp extended shell holder that has no hole in the middle. This works well but is actually slower than the punch.

118440 118441

[btroj]

It is the little details like that which matter. Square bases are more important than anything else in a bullet.

I see some punches being made this winter.

[cainttype]

Regular punches can be used to flare checks after turning in a decent drill press with a mill file to bevel the tip to your desired angle. Minor beveling has no practical effect on a punch, so you can normally use it without worry as a dual-purpose tool indefinitely.
I have a pretty large selection of punches modified this way. Most were purchased by the handful from the used tool bins in local pawn shops...pennies a piece.

[Doc Highwall]

Funny that you mention annealing case necks I just received this in the mail today.

http://bench-source.com/id81.html

Here is a thread I started about modifying dies for cast bullets. Take a look at my neck expander die. I will be making the other expander diameters this winter.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?90241-Modifying-Dies-For-Cast-Bullet-Shooting

This fits right in with what you are doing. I hope to use the 311365 bullet for this test.

[Pilgrim]

I agree square bases are absolutely critical for accuracy, but.....if all the other factors (fit, neck tension, alloy, alignment, brass, etc.) aren't right, then the square base doesn't buy you squat. I think the powder ignition does a pretty good job of ensuring the GC is as flat as the boolit base, so I 've not spent much time fooling around with GC's other than to NEVER use slip-on GC. All I use now are the Hornady checks. I've sorta given up on BHN simply to keep my casting etc. simple. I think it's important, but I'm not too sure WHEN it becomes important. My .358 is giving me 2430 fps instrument velocity with a 35-200 boolit with a BHN # of 14/15 ( ACWW w/ 2% 95-5 solder). Ain't no way that load is anywhere near the 2240 x BHN pressure limit. It's gotta be approaching 50k psi. Alloy is important, but I think it is secondary to fit and BHN. So when does the boolit BHN become critical? I know a too small boolit total diameter is disaster, as is a bore rider that doesn't ride the bore. I suspect oversize boolits are just as acceptable as the "perfect fit boolit" whatever that is. Lubes are as important as anything else, but there are a bunch of good lubes that prevent leading, so lube is a factor, but again when ? I think lubes are as good as the boolit fit and gets more critical as velocity goes up but I'm not sure when to start testing lubes vs. velocity. So far LBT Blue has served me well so changing to FWFL or Bens Red isn't in the cards (yet). Powder selection is important, but I think it's a black art that we will never have a good answer for. Some combination ALWAYS work like the .270 and H4831 with 130 gr. jacketed bullets. Other combinations mostly work but some combinations should work but don't. I'm going to go back to testing my .30 and .35 Rems, .375 Win., .30-30, and most likely .223 and I will report back here as to my results and observations. FWIW Pilgrim

[MT Gianni]

either way,, they seemed good to me.
you do run into degrees of difficulty along the way.
airc it was Felix that told me it was about every 250-300 fps.
21-24-2700 seemed to each hold an accuracy node.
as you found each one you found accuracy again about that much higher and had to work harder and harder on narrowing down the details to move to the next one.


Back on the shooters hosted forum I remember Felix talking about accuracy nodes @ 400 fps intervals, 1200, 2600, 2000, & 2400 with secondary nodes at the half points, 1400, 1800, 2200 etc. I thought it was more toward barrel harmonics but could be wrong.

[geargnasher]

OK, back to the brass prep thing. Here's some more stuff I find necessary at HV, ya'll chime in.

Brass must be a reasonably snug fit in the chamber. More loose in autoloaders, but no more loose than absolutely necessary to function. This usually means the brass must be fireformed, and fireformed concentrically. If the chamber is super-sloppy near the head, a narrow strip of cellophane tape wrapped around the head will keep the full-length-resized case centered during fireforming. Leaving the case mouth belled for a scrape-fit in the chamber neck also helps center the front of the case, provided the flare is concentric with the neck and the neck is sized concentric with the body. Once this is done, subsequent sizings may be neck only, or partial sizing in a regular FL die that's backed off the shellholder until it only sizes the body enough to plunk back into the chamber easily but with minimal "wiggle". The case neck steers the bullet at launch, and experience shows that crooked starts = big groups.....at any velocity, but HV and high rpm magnify these little issues exponentially.

Next deal is case neck clearance. I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't maintained 1MOA in any rifle much past "normal" velocities with the .006-10" total chamber neck clearance that is so typical. Look at the .308 Winchester chamber neck, it's like .343" at the front and .345" at the shoulder junction, and brass averages around .0135" after knocking off the high spot. Throat entrance varies, but is typically .310-.311". So the max size bullet is .311". Add .311", 2X .0135", subract from .343", and you get .005" as an absolute best case scenario, more like .006" if you give a little margin of error and size just under throat entrance diameter (.310" or so). All other things close to the same, I can substitute GI blank brass (thanks, Bob) which has necks around .022" thick, turn them to .016" thick, and get .001" total neck clearance and can now shoot MOA at 2400 fps instead of 1900, in a ten twist sporter. Some other things have to be just right, too, like bullet nose shape, alloy composition/temper, and powder burn rate/charge, but it can be dialed in PROVIDED the neck clearance is small. If it can be done with thin necks, I don't know how. As was mentioned earlier (and I've done this), using .270 or '06 brass to form 7mm-08 or 6.5x55 Mauser with thick-enough necks is a necessary tool for getting HV in those calibers. No way around it. If you have a .30-06, you're pretty much stuck. I've tried .35 Whelen brass sized down, it's not enough. I even talked with the Hawk guys and a custom brass outfit that makes '06 "basic" brass about forming '06 out of basic brass and the conclusion was I might gain .002" total, which in most '06 chambers isn't enough. I came up with a way to add thickness to the necks by copper-plating trued '06 necks up to just over the correct thickness and sanding them to an exact size checked with a ball mic. It worked very well, and enabled me to take my '06 to places it had never been before with sub-moa accuracy, but the process of doing only five cases exactly the same was excruciating. I will gladly pay $500 to rebarrel a rifle plus another $150 for a tight-necked reamer before I do that again. If you have a .243 Winchester (hey JonB, this is for you) you can get thick necks from .308 brass or .270 brass, quite a few options, really. Anyway, the point is that getting that total loaded neck clearance down around a thousandth is pretty much essential to HV accuracy because it limits how far off to one side the bullet base can bend, or more likely, how much it can rivet up as the nose is swaging through the throat. Ideally, I postulate that the inside of the case neck, when fully expanded to the confines of the chamber neck, is never larger than the throat entrance diameter. Felix made a comment once that softer bullets like a little more clearance, but in context he meant within reason, and that super-tight, like a few "tenths" total, might not work as well with a soft bullet as with a tougher one. I have yet to test this very well to see, but have in one instance tested .0005" total vs. .0012" total and all else equal the tighter fit shot best by a clear margin using a fairly "tough" alloy.

We talked about anneal, I find some load/gun combos like rock-hard necks, others not so much. If your neck is soft, work the case through a FL die a few times with the factory expander button in there, they will harden quickly. I find also that when dealing with production-spec neck clearances (SAAMMI minimum brass and SAAMMI maximum chambers) really hard necks help accuracy at 'normal' velocities. Consistent neck anneal, or "bullet pull", "neck tension" however you want to describe it, is at least as important as the exact amount of tension or anneal. This goes double for revolvers with straight-walled cartridges and rifles where the bullet must "jump" to the lands.

I true my necks by at least removing high spots. Doing so has always improved groups, so I continue to do it, even in .30-30 Winchester.

Things I don't do regularly, YET, because I haven't seen much difference: Deburring flash holes, weighing cases or measuring water weight, or sorting by weight. I'm on the fence with flash hole uniforming. Military '06 flash holes are rarely close to center, but I haven't seen just how much that matters for sure yet.

I do true primer pockets with a Redding reamer and found to my surprise that groups actually improved, so i do it to every LR pocket now. This really helps get the primers just below flush and I think that helps a lot when the case is well-formed to the chamber and the bolt puts some preload on it as it's cammed into battery. I started reaming pockets when I discovered that a lot of .30-30 pockets are too shallow, or are actually all over the map. I can't hold half-inch groups at 100 yards with my Marlin .30-30 without truing pockets and culling the super-deep ones.

When using range pickup brass or brass fired from a machine gun, I tend to check the case head and rim for burrs and file them off, or flat-sand across the headstamp to remove high spots. Seems to help ensure that the datum length remains constant through multiple firings.

These are a few things I've found through my own, meandering experience or been told about and tested to be true myself...things that fall into the "it matters" category when taking cast bullets to the next level of velocity, particularly in rifle barrels with standard twist rates.

Gear

[Pilgrim]

If you can get a copy of a 1994 RIFLE article "In Search of Accuracy", I compared a whole bunch of accuracy tricks with brass treatment. I found that much of what gear just typed up matches my research. There is a lot of variables that affect the net effect like case neck turning. Marquart sold me his neck turning setup and ventured an opinion that a "tight neck" chamber situation is necessary to see accuracy improvement. My tests verified his opinion that minimal neck clearance is necessary for neck turning to have a positive accuracy effect. Anyway....it was performed using j@#=/^ed bullets, but much/most of the results will be the same with bullets or boolits. FWIW Pilgrim

[geargnasher]

When you start splitting hairs, this stuff definitely matters with j@#=/^ed bullets too. I've said before that it seems like one has to go to full-on F-class BR case prep methods to get even "normal" factory j@#=/^ed ammo accuracy with cast bullets. Due to the delicacy of our beloved cast lead-alloy bullets, the nuances and variances of the cartridge brass affect the way they launch and fly so much more.

Gear

[ReloaderEd]

I have learned a few valuable things reading thru this thread. Vice grips ro test anealed case neck and pure lead as an annealing media for consistent temperature. Fired case necks wirh cast bullets that fit the chamber throat (just) seated at the correct depth and perhaps indexed from rhe mold. Now all this is something I'm going to work on this winter starting out with the most accurate loads I have for cast.
Off hand does anyone know what the maximum PC cast bullets or boolits have been pushed velocity wise?
Lighter 30 caliber boolits will be needed for sucess in the quest for 3000+ fps and a slow barrel twist. That's my opinion. Be safe
118444

[303Guy]

Thanks for that write up, Gear.

[frnkeore]

Can we define "accuracy"?

Frank

[tomme boy]

My definition would be different from others. Because there is bench accuracy and then there is hunting accuracy. Even this is different from person to person.

My bench accuracy for cast in a rifle would be 1 IPHY(inch per hundred yards). Hunting accuracy for me would be 2 IPHY.

[RoyEllis]

..... I do actually have one load that will fall in the #5 category.

That makes me feel better, to know I'm not the only one trying to learn a way to get really high velocity cast to work. .257 Weatherby mag @ 3600fps I've found do-able with paper patched loads,but when a 100gr boolit just explodes & doesn't penetrate through a yote...I got some alloy work to do. Only way I can get consistently defect-free boolits to wrap is casting a core, swaging it in a die I had made for use in my 20 ton shop press.....monotype way too hard, lino was still too hard & would crumble/crack when swaged, AC WW's work ok but blow up @ impact. I mean it looks like you taped an IED to a yotes shoulder...huge hamburger-like depression blown out & no through penetration, not what I want for beanfield deer shootin'.
Oh well, back to the drawing board, maybe with a good discussion by others who know far more than I do, I just might learn enough to get somewhere.

[Bullshop Junior]

How about the expanders that we use. I have always thought that they were helping in one way but hurting in another. Meaning that we need to get a set amount of tension to hold the bullet. So to get that, I use an RCBS neck expander. It works well. But is there a better way to expand the neck and keep it straight at the same time?

I do not like the expanders that come with a FL die or neck die. I usually take them out and use the Neck expanders only. My groups have most certainly improved. I feel it has to be because of more consistent neck tension. I know everyone has different ways to achieve the same thing, but this is something that really seems to help make my ammo more accurate weather it is cast or jacketed.

I think if I was going to be target shooting, I would not size my cases. I would notch the rim of the case, so that it could be chambered the same every time, and then use brass with a thick even neck, where the bullet is just a snug fit. If we are single loading at a bench, we don't need to worry about bullets getting shoved back into the case during recoil or when cycling the action. And then all the cases are fit to the chamber, and are the same way every time.

[Bullshop Junior]

it's anything beyond normal cast velocity's in your rifle.

if you are approaching jacketed velocity's, your for sure high velocity with cast.

for instance I shoot 2400 fps in my 308's my 30-30's and 358 Winchester.
I shoot 2800 in my AR and in my ruger varmint 223.

we need to remember a 180 in a 308 won't get past 2700 no matter what we do.

This is kinda the way I see it. Say I look in a reloading manual for say, my 32 special and it shows a 170gn Jacketed at 2300 FPS. For me, if I am approaching within 200 FPS of that I am getting to high velocity for that gun.

My 30/06 will shoot that same weight bullet 2700 FPS. Again, if I am approaching that velocity I am getting to high velocity with cast.

On the other hand, in my 1911, 900 FPS is high velocity.

[geargnasher]

My definition would be different from others. Because there is bench accuracy and then there is hunting accuracy. Even this is different from person to person.

My bench accuracy for cast in a rifle would be 1 IPHY(inch per hundred yards). Hunting accuracy for me would be 2 IPHY.

I just stick with 1IPHY for everything, I need every advantage I can get in the hunting field. If that means I have to slow things down a bit and do a lot more shooting at various ranges to dial-in my trajectory better, so be it. I'd rather compensate for additional drop than for an extra MOA of "unknown".

ReloaderEd, several members have been gathering data on Powder Coated Cast Bullets in rifles to determine which techniques and components work best, and what are the practical limits of the method. The jury is still out, but likely PC will mostly just replace lube and possibly give a little boost to the bullet's surface strength. It's looking like fine-tuning alloy is still very important, and that PC does not mitigate all of the challenges with cast lead-alloy bullet shooting at higher velocities, though it does seem to make some aspects of HV load development easier.

Gear

[Bullshop]

Here is something to ponder and to try to apply reason to the why of it that may lead to fruitful ground.
Why is it that I can get well in excess of 4000, 4300 tops so far fps with a 22 cal boolit with acceptable accuracy shooting them from a 1/10" twist barrel if they are in a sabot but without a sabot seemingly impossible to get even close to this? I think there are going to be several points to address in answering this question like alloy strength, alloy spring back, torque, boolit length, alloy temper and likely many things beyond my ability to even consider.
It will be very interesting to truly understand why this is so

[dtknowles]

cb the best way I have found to get around it is to use a temp indicator and time.
once I hit the 700-f temp zone that's all I want, I time how long it takes to get there and use the same amount on each case.
I don't like a dead soft anneal on my cast loads.
I like the case necks to have a couple of sizings done to them after an anneal, you'll feel the difference in the seating die.
I sort my loads according to that feel usually the vast majority have a resistance to them, one or two slip right in, and a couple take some oomph to seat.
the too easy and too tight get pulled into their own group for shooting together.

I should have known I was not the only person using feel during bullet seating as a sorting criteria. The too tight or too loose ones get used a fowlers for cold barrels or after cleaning. If I get a lot of variation it is time for new brass or annealing depending on my mood.

Tim

[dtknowles]

red the cooling doesn't matter it's the heat.
the time of the heat isn't overly important it's how much.
you have to get to between 700-715 for the molecules to re-align in brass and for the annealing to be done.
I use time to get the temps to the same point.
if a case takes more or less time it is different than the rest of the batch and doesn't belong.

I use time and feel to gage proper annealing. I use a simple propane torch and hold the case neck in the flame with my thumb and fore finger holding the base of the case, rotating it back and forth about 180 degrees while counting to ten. If it gets hotter than normal I will drop it in the water early or if it does not get as hot I hold it a bit longer but normally it goes in the water at the ten count.

Tim

[dtknowles]

A topic I constantly trying to get smarter at. It seems to me it almost requires it own sub-forum. :twisted:

My own high velocity interests pretty much revolve around the 22 calibers. I never fails to amaze me what matters and what doesn't. Why does a boolit with a good static fit shoot like garbage yet another that appears to be totally un-suited shoot so well? Why do I get great accuracy at velocity with the 4895's yet moving to 4064 accuracy is dismal at any velocity?

There are certain things that I know work yet I don't know why. Some of the recent threads regarding the 30 xcb have started to shed some light on some of the things I have been running into and I hope they can continue.

Darrell

About the unexpected results. If the test samples are small or from a single range session then the unexpected results could be caused by variations or factors not related to the particular item being tested. For my testing, I can be a big uncontrolled variable. I am not the same shot each session or at in a long day at the range I can break discipline. Another big variable is wind, I have started bringing wind flags to the range and while I am still learning to read them, I can see the wind is causing shots to move out of my groups.

Tim

[btroj]

Clean case necks merely means no powder gas leaked down the sides of the neck It also means the neck is supported by the chamber, not just flopping around in there.

It does? Interseting. I can get clean necks in every factory rifle I own if I load close to max pressure. I am certain there is a bunch of neck clearance in many of them but clean necks are easy to get. Dirty necks are equally easy to get in most rifles.

[tomme boy]

Junior, if you have to index a case to get it to shoot, something is not lined up to begin with. What is the whole point of making the brass and the bullet as straight as possible then shove it into an off center chamber.

I know most chambers on factory rifles are not as straight as we would like. Remington and T/C come to mind here. They are scary how far out of center I have seen. But they shoot jacketed really well. Cast can be another story sometimes.

[leftiye]

Gear, the idea of using vise grips to check neck annealing belongs to Ken Light and yes, sounds kind of crude but it does work. Here is a really good article on annealing where what, why, how, when to anneal is discussed. Lot's good tips and cautions.

http://lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm By Ken Light.

I'd still like to know if anyone has done a side by side accuracy test of annealed brass against virgin brass and fired brass not annealed. The results would certainly indicate a level of success of the annealing.

Rick

Would hardness testing the necks (if it were possible) fulfill the need for uniform neck "pull"?

[dtknowles]

Would hardness testing the necks (if it were possible) fulfill the need for uniform neck "pull"?

I would not go to the trouble to control that one variable. There are many variables that effect neck tension. Brass wall thickness, bullet diameter, internal neck brass roughness, sized neck diameter, bullet straightness, brass hardness.... To me it is easier to control the easy to control factors and use bullet seating feel to screen out the bad actors.

Tim

[Bullshop Junior]

That makes me feel better, to know I'm not the only one trying to learn a way to get really high velocity cast to work. .257 Weatherby mag @ 3600fps I've found do-able with paper patched loads,but when a 100gr boolit just explodes & doesn't penetrate through a yote...I got some alloy work to do. Only way I can get consistently defect-free boolits to wrap is casting a core, swaging it in a die I had made for use in my 20 ton shop press.....monotype way too hard, lino was still too hard & would crumble/crack when swaged, AC WW's work ok but blow up @ impact. I mean it looks like you taped an IED to a yotes shoulder...huge hamburger-like depression blown out & no through penetration, not what I want for beanfield deer shootin'.
Oh well, back to the drawing board, maybe with a good discussion by others who know far more than I do, I just might learn enough to get somewhere.

I don't know what the flash point is on your paper, but what about swaging your paper patched ACWW alloy and then heat treating? (Not sure what all in involved in that, just have seen a few guys mention it)

[BruceB]

As far as high-velocity cast loads are concerned, my most-forgiving rifle is a Ruger #1..... in .416 Rigby!

The most-common factory loads are 400 grains at a nominal 2370 fps. I say "nominal" because my rifle has never seen a factory cartridge in its 2600-plus rounds. Apart from maybe 300 jacketed rounds, all were cast bullets, the RCBS 416-350 at 365 grains in my alloy.

My go-to load for fun AND hunting runs at 2050 fps, and groups TEN rounds in an inch or a tad more from 100 yards.

HOWEVER.... a high-velocity research sequence saw the RCBS bullet departing at just over 2600 fps, driven by a charge of well over 100 grains of H4831. This load groups 5 rounds in 1.5" at 100 yards. The downside is that it is BRUTAL behind the butt.

The .416 Rigby is great if one can tolerate the recoil. I have a load for the 300-grain X-bullet that leaves at a flat 3000 fps, with a trajectory about like a 150 .30'06. What an elk load THAT would be.... but again, one had better not have tongue-between-teeth when touching off this hummer.

My "standard" 2050 fps/365 grain load has avery usable trajectory to 200 yards and more.... three inches high at 100 places the bullets on point of aim at 200. With a cast soft-point on the RCBS bullet, that makes an effective big-game load, especially since I try to make 200 yards my MAXIMUM range for shots at game. This is actually much like a moderate-weight bullet in a .45-70 at the same speed, but a skosh flatter-shooting.

[RickinTN]

With the comments about sizing/squaring gas checks.....Is there a benefit to annealing the checks? I've tried a few and don't think I saw a difference but maybe had too many of the other variables out of kilter for it to show. Any experiences?
Rick

[geargnasher]

Would hardness testing the necks (if it were possible) fulfill the need for uniform neck "pull"?

IDK, I tend to think some sort of inside expanding collet-type mandrel that could give a .0015" controlled stretch and indicate pressure required to achieve it would be more of a direct test. One would also check before and after neck OD to detect any permanent deformation. Pressure required and permanent deformation point would be good to know, but practical? Only if one can devise a machine to check.

Gear

[cbrick]

With the comments about sizing/squaring gas checks.....Is there a benefit to annealing the checks? I've tried a few and don't think I saw a difference but maybe had too many of the other variables out of kilter for it to show. Any experiences?
Rick

I tried annealing checks and wasn't impressed, probably didn't give it the attention it deserved but I went back to sizing them with the punch.

Rick

[geargnasher]

CBRick, don't they get annealed slightly when you heat treat your bullets? You mentioned installing them before heat-treating and I wondered if 400-ish was enough to knock the suds out of the copper or not.

Gear

[cbrick]

Would hardness testing the necks (if it were possible) fulfill the need for uniform neck "pull"?

Here's how I attempt to control work hardened necks. New brass goes into an MTM ammo box correct for it's size. Never is this brass to be mixed with any other brass, not in the tumbler, not anyplace. That brass is loaded, fired, tumbled and prepped as a single lot of brass. No brass in that box is reloaded until all of them have been fired. A piece of tape inside the lid is marked how many times that brass has been loaded. All brass in that box has been loaded/fired the same number of times.

When I went to a championship long range match I didn't go to the firing line with a box of ammo where some had been fired once and some 10 times, they were all as identical as I could make them.

Rick

[Bullshop Junior]

Junior, if you have to index a case to get it to shoot, something is not lined up to begin with. What is the whole point of making the brass and the bullet as straight as possible then shove it into an off center chamber.

I know most chambers on factory rifles are not as straight as we would like. Remington and T/C come to mind here. They are scary how far out of center I have seen. But they shoot jacketed really well. Cast can be another story sometimes.

I am not saying it is nessisary, i am saying that it takes out another variable.

[Bullshop Junior]

Here is a thought. It may exist, and I may not have seen it, but I am gonna flap my thumbs anyway.

I have seen several post, mostly from r5r about feeling how much pressure it takes to seat the bullet, and separating them by lot on how the bullet seats.

What if we add a pressure gauge to the seating die to regulate how much pressure it used. You could defiantly be more accurate with a gauge then my feel I would think.

[cbrick]

CBRick, don't they get annealed slightly when you heat treat your bullets? You mentioned installing them before heat-treating and I wondered if 400-ish was enough to knock the suds out of the copper or not. Gear

They might, not sure. They do dis-color but they are crimped on tight and don't loosen any from the heat treat. The only rounds that I'm heat treating is for the long range match revolver, everything else I'm currently shooting is COWW +2% Sn air cooled. All handgun and rifles to 2000 fps, none of them benefits from a harder bullet. Since I'm not competing anymore I don't load that revolver much these days.

Rick

[brotherdarrell]

The only rifle I have had consistent high velocity success with is my 222 (rem 788) and that only happened when I started forming cases from 223 and added an extra .015" to the case length. Before that accuracy stopped at a little over 2k fps. It is now holding moa @ 100 yds up to 2500 fps.


Please keep the info coming, and thanks.

Darrell

[offshore44]

A comment on bore riders... (I know we are talking about brass prep at the moment, but i wanted to get this in here before I forget)

From my experience bore riding designs are very dependent on alloy / boolit strength vs. velocity / pressure. Given properly prepared brass, accuracy degrades rapidly at a certain point. Try pushing just a little faster and groups turn into patterns. Increase boolit strength and accuracy returns. Given that the bore riding section fits the bore correctly, at about 0.001" over bore size that is. This has happened in four rifles. .308, 8mm and the .45 cals. (45-70 and 458 Win mag) Bore riders are very accurate, but very picky beasts, and require more of a balance with fit, boolit strength, launch pressure and brass / chamber fit. When the balance is there, higher velocities are achievable.

[btroj]

Alright, here is a question for all.

In the past Run has commented on using a bit of Dacron even with almost full cases. He says it helps boost powder burn rate by making the powder think it is in a smaller case. It could also help protect the bullet base a bit from hot gases.

Would using a bit be a worthwhile experiment with the 30 Sil and RE19? Powder is on the slow side for good results based on what I have seen. I figure it can't hurt to try it and see, just looking for some input from others.

[geargnasher]

RE19 I think is a touch too slow in the XCB with the 182-ish bullet. You can advance the burn curve considerably by using Dacron filler or even more with buffer, but buffer is a double-edged sword and might insulate the initial swaging through the throat too much and not get enough bump. Only way to know is try, blah blah blah..

PM me and I may be able to give you some safety tips and starting points on the buffer as I've used a lot of it.

Gear

[btroj]

I have to try it? What?

I will await the return PM and go from there. I do wat to try some Dacron, just need to find time. I have another major project arriving next week and I think shooting will be a bit on the back burner for a bit.

And yes, RE19 does seem just a shade too slow. I need to find some RE17, if I can. The bit of RE15 I have left will also get some shooting time.

[detox]

Both Varget and V140 do verywell at velocities above 2000fps using the NOE 30XCB 165gr bullet. 35grs of both powders averaged 2200fps. 40grs of both powders averaged 2500fps. Gun is a Remington VS chambered in 308 Winchester. Linotype bullets were sized .311 and jammed into rifling when chambered. All bullets hand dipped in Lee Alox.


4895 and 335 did not do very well above 2000fps

Here is my best group @100yards. Both Varget and V140 averaged under 1.25" for all shots. I will test these rounds again and post pictures of 10 shot groups all together

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg.html)

[detox]

Here is one more picture

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8107_zps24d9ed36.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8107_zps24d9ed36.jpg.html)

[geargnasher]

Detox, that's excellent! I'd love to see a chamber cast of your rifle to see how the bullet nose and chamber mate. I have a similar rifle and it has .100 freebore followed by a 3-degree-per-side leade into the lands, and I have been meaning to try the straight-taper of the AM 31-190X in it to see if the mis-match improves things vs. the matched, straight taper of the XCB which didn't work so well. Based on your results above, it just might work and now I'm more encouraged to try the 190X in my .308. I'm thinking at HV there needs to be a little bit of mismatch to the angles to allow a little slack for things to center on their own, rather than force them in there from a dead-nutz, full-contact fit which can never really be made perfect just by closing the bolt.

I'm having good luck at HV using a bullet with a couple of different tapers to the nose which allows a good "self-alignment" in a variety of chambers, it's a 45 2.1-designed bullet and he has explained how it works. It works particularly well in straight-taper or worn throats with little freebore, kind of the opposite of what I think you're doing with the straight-taper bullet and freebore+sharp taper throat if your throat is cut like I suspect.

You're going to prove a bunch of us wrong about straight linotype shooting straight at HV, aren't you? Good for you for showing there's more than one way to go about this.

Gear

[detox]

Here is chamber pound cast. The factory 308 NATO on left has .150 length free bore and .3118 diameter. The cast on right is my new Minimum SAMMI 308 with .090 free bore and .310 diameter. The NOE 30XCB Bullet prefers the larger 308 NATO with longer .150 leade and worn tapered throat (Remington VS).

The longer .150 free bore or leade and gentle throat taper is what helps guide the bullet strait. Bullets are sized .3115 to fit snug in free bore.

I will shoot for 2600-2700fps next time out

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8039_zpsf9115ebd.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8039_zpsf9115ebd.jpg.html)

[leftiye]

I would not go to the trouble to control that one variable. There are many variables that effect neck tension. Brass wall thickness, bullet diameter, internal neck brass roughness, sized neck diameter, bullet straightness, brass hardness.... To me it is easier to control the easy to control factors and use bullet seating feel to screen out the bad actors.

Tim

One could, and many would, control all of those factors. It is the way we pursue accuracy. Pull being one of the harder factors to measure, only thumb tight seating will remove its effect.

[Bullshop Junior]

http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/tension.html

[leftiye]

Here is a thought. It may exist, and I may not have seen it, but I am gonna flap my thumbs anyway.

I have seen several post, mostly from r5r about feeling how much pressure it takes to seat the bullet, and separating them by lot on how the bullet seats.

What if we add a pressure gauge to the seating die to regulate how much pressure it used. You could defiantly be more accurate with a gauge then my feel I would think.

Or what if we ran an expander ball (that didn't expand the brass, or very little) through each case and had an electronic pull type scale (a recording type scale so we don't have troubles reading a spring type scale) attached to the press handle? I am thinking this would do it.

P.S. I hadn't seen your above reference (post 90) yet when I typed this.

[Bullshop Junior]

There are lots of ways it could be done. I don't know if it is worth the effort, although I had never even though of case neck tension being a factor in accuracy before.

[geargnasher]

Detox, thank you for the pic and explanation. Looks like the leade tapers are mismatched by well over 1.5 degrees per side, and longer freebore helps. Mismatching the tapers helps make the swaging less sudden. Have you hardness-tested your linotype? Hope you don't mind all the questions, I'm just really interested in dissecting all the fine details of how you got a NATO chamber, in I'm assuming ten-inch twist rate, to shoot 2500 fps with just over MOA accuracy, because that's REALLY tough to do and a couple of us have done it at 2400 fps, I'd like to see what we did differently and what we did the same.

I'm assuming you have the 26" Varmint-contour, 1-in-10" barrel on your VS?

Gear

[leftiye]

Detox, that's excellent! I'd love to see a chamber cast of your rifle to see how the bullet nose and chamber mate. I have a similar rifle and it has .100 freebore followed by a 3-degree-per-side leade into the lands, and I have been meaning to try the straight-taper of the AM 31-190X in it to see if the mis-match improves things vs. the matched, straight taper of the XCB which didn't work so well. Based on your results above, it just might work and now I'm more encouraged to try the 190X in my .308. I'm thinking at HV there needs to be a little bit of mismatch to the angles to allow a little slack for things to center on their own, rather than force them in there from a dead-nutz, full-contact fit which can never really be made perfect just by closing the bolt.

I'm having good luck at HV using a bullet with a couple of different tapers to the nose which allows a good "self-alignment" in a variety of chambers, it's a 45 2.1-designed bullet and he has explained how it works. It works particularly well in straight-taper or worn throats with little freebore, kind of the opposite of what I think you're doing with the straight-taper bullet and freebore+sharp taper throat if your throat is cut like I suspect.

You're going to prove a bunch of us wrong about straight linotype shooting straight at HV, aren't you? Good for you for showing there's more than one way to go about this. Gear

Gear, it might also be about the lower impact of the smaller contact area of the mismatched angles. It might engrave a small area enough to guide the rest while engraving, whereas a total fit might not engrave before sliding one way or another. Deformation?

[dtknowles]

One could, and many would, control all of those factors. It is the way we pursue accuracy. Pull being one of the harder factors to measure, only thumb tight seating will remove its effect.

I work to minimize the variation in all those factors in pursuit of accuracy but personally testing the hardness of my brass is not something I am getting into. I have tried to track down why some bullets require more or less force to seat than others. One factor was not getting the bullet started quite straight, gladly I will reject those rounds. Another was thin case necks. After just one cycle all those cases are now segregated.

I believe that if it take more or less force to seat the bullet then the force to pull the bullet will vary in an unacceptable manner.

I have loaded and tested ammo with almost no neck tension (thumb seating) I loaded these with long overall length so the bullets would hit the lands and be pushed back into the neck. I would not call this jam because the contact force is very small. This worked ok, not magic, groups much like others for good loads in this rifle.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Getting and keeping the bullet absolutely straight as it goes into the barrel seems to be the principle obstacle to HV accuracy when all the other factors are ironed out. It's very difficult to do what Runfiverun and Detox are doing with their .308s where there is more or less dependence on pre-aligning the bullet straight in the throat and lots of room (I assume) around the case neck for the base of the bullet to wiggle/bend/rivet etc. yet the nose is presumably tough enough and tight enough to be held straight. They are doing it, though, or the groups would be more like 5-6" or worse. The proof of a straight bullet start (and finish) is in the group sizes they're getting.

Gear

[RickinTN]

Gear, and others.
I have limited experience on the matter but so far I think I agree with you on the mis-matched taper of the bullet nose. It seems it would be easier on the transition from static to dynamic fit and engrave gradually instead of all at once thus somewhat relieving the tendency of the bullet to compress. My question would be....Is it better to have the nose of the bullet engrave from the front of the nose back? or form the back of the nose forward? I think I know that ideally a bore-ride bullet engraves the leade slightly at the very front of the bore-ride section and serves to align the bullet. In a situation of engraving from the back of the nose forward this alignment would be sacrificed at least in static state and alignment to the bore would have to rely on other areas. The issue I see with engraving from the back of the nose forward is that the nose of the bullet, at least part of it, is temporarily unsupported until complete engraving is accomplished. I hope my question makes sense. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Rick

[Bjornb]

Detox, thank you for the pic and explanation. Looks like the leade tapers are mismatched by well over 1.5 degrees per side, and longer freebore helps. Mismatching the tapers helps make the swaging less sudden. Have you hardness-tested your linotype? Hope you don't mind all the questions, I'm just really interested in dissecting all the fine details of how you got a NATO chamber, in I'm assuming ten-inch twist rate, to shoot 2500 fps with just over MOA accuracy, because that's REALLY tough to do and a couple of us have done it at 2400 fps, I'd like to see what we did differently and what we did the same.

I'm assuming you have the 26" Varmint-contour, 1-in-10" barrel on your VS?

Gear

Gear,
over on the test thread Detox mentioned that his 308 had a 1:12 twist.

[geargnasher]

Gear, and others.
I have limited experience on the matter but so far I think I agree with you on the mis-matched taper of the bullet nose. It seems it would be easier on the transition from static to dynamic fit and engrave gradually instead of all at once thus somewhat relieving the tendency of the bullet to compress. My question would be....Is it better to have the nose of the bullet engrave from the front of the nose back? or form the back of the nose forward? I think I know that ideally a bore-ride bullet engraves the leade slightly at the very front of the bore-ride section and serves to align the bullet. In a situation of engraving from the back of the nose forward this alignment would be sacrificed at least in static state and alignment to the bore would have to rely on other areas. The issue I see with engraving from the back of the nose forward is that the nose of the bullet, at least part of it, is temporarily unsupported until complete engraving is accomplished. I hope my question makes sense. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Rick

That's the million-dollar question, isn't it? I've had the best results so far using bullets that are a shallower taper than the leade angle, for what it's worth.

You can "engrave" the nose all you want, but those little lands aren't going to continue to support it straight without sinking in to one side of the nose if the bullet base is jammed crooked from the back just as soon as the powder lights. Harder, way harder bullets seem to be needed for getting good groups at even just above the typical we've seen. The bore-rider concept just doesn't seem to work out very well at extremely HV from what I've seen.

Gear

[btroj]

I think excessive land contact is bad. I want enough to keep the bullet aligned at ignition but I want the bullet to be able to easily engrave the rifling. I want bullet movement early in the ignition so it is engraving before pressure rises too much. A tapered nose allows the engraving to be not only gradual but to also increase in length of contact. Move the bullet 1/4 inch and it is engraved well and still centered.

Im no expert but I think this is part of why the 30 Sil shoots well at higher velocity.

[geargnasher]

Gear,
over on the test thread Detox mentioned that his 308 had a 1:12 twist.

Right. I was going off of some internet misinformation. Remington states 1:12 for #84345 and 26" (probably fluted) barrel for the .308 model.

Gear

[btroj]

Internet misinformation? Say it isnt so!

Those are some very nice groups for 2200 fps.

[dtknowles]

I am sure I missed something quite a while back but bare with me. How come all this discussion is about long nose bullets with only a single or maybe two grooves? What is the reason for not using Loverin style bullets or Pope style. I am working on high velocity with gas checks and also 2000 fps with plain base. I am following this because a lot of the same details apply to both but I don't understand why to use a long nose short shank bullet. As an aside, why isn't the neck longer on the 30XCB?

Tim

[btroj]

I prefer the long nose, single groove bullets as much for casting ease as anything. The MP 30 Sil shoots well, has a good reputation, and is what I have. This bullet is also well regarded for use in the 06 and we have a short 06.

I have a pretty strong dislike for Loverin style bullets. Can't say why, just do.

As for the case not having a longer neck, how much longer is needed? I have never heard of anyone accusing the 06 case of being short necked and that is what we have.

[geargnasher]

I am sure I missed something quite a while back but bare with me. How come all this discussion is about long nose bullets with only a single or maybe two grooves? What is the reason for not using Loverin style bullets or Pope style. I am working on high velocity with gas checks and also 2000 fps with plain base. I am following this because a lot of the same details apply to both but I don't understand why to use a long nose short shank bullet. As an aside, why isn't the neck longer on the 30XCB?

Tim

I don't know anyone getting any sort of what I'd call "accuracy" at HV using Loverin-style (or more specifically, the narrow-banded Lyman iterations) using regular twists. Best I ever did was with a honed-out 266469 in the Swedish Mauser, got to around 2200 fps with consistent MOA accuracy, but they were hard bullets and a lot of tricks used to get them pushed along straight.

If you have a Loverin style bullet in .30 caliber, have a go with it and see what you get. They shoot really well in the normal range and some have demonstrated they can still do pretty well at elevated velocities in slow-twist barrels, so you can draw your own conclusions about their inherent shortcomings (hint: Bearing surface). Now you're thinking "well, the silhouette style has very little bearing surface", to which I reply, "not if you launch it correctly".

Gear

[dtknowles]

I prefer the long nose, single groove bullets as much for casting ease as anything. The MP 30 Sil shoots well, has a good reputation, and is what I have. This bullet is also well regarded for use in the 06 and we have a short 06.

I have a pretty strong dislike for Loverin style bullets. Can't say why, just do.

As for the case not having a longer neck, how much longer is needed? I have never heard of anyone accusing the 06 case of being short necked and that is what we have.

Well, the neck is shorter than the 30-30 and the 30-40 Krag. Could have just pushed the shoulder back on the 30-06 without shortening the case. I like to keep the whole bullet in the neck and with the short lead some bullet designs would have the base below the neck.


The design seems tailored toward that particular style bullet and I was wondering why that style bullet was chosen with all the nose slump bore riding bullet balance issues. Why have so much bullet out of the case. With a tight necked chamber and neck turned brass why not have the case support more of the bullet to get it going straight?

Is the MP 30 Sil a clone of the RCBS Sil style bullets. These seem to be a more modern development. I guess they were developed for Silhouette shooting, maybe? I always assumed this style was preferred for its higher ballistic coefficient but have never seen any such story in print.

Tim

[btroj]

Oh no, the MP 30 Sil is a totally different beast from the RCBS 165 Sil. The nose has no parallel section. None at all. There is also a more pronounced taper that fills the throat and bore.

I wasn't in on the discussion about the cha,her but I think it was decided to use a tit necked 06 reamer run in short for many reasons. It gave a cast friendly throat angle. It also allows the use of commonly available dies with just a simple shortening of the die. It also has a shape that will feed well from most rifle magazines.

Others can speak more on the design decision but it works pretty well. A longer neck would require a custom reamer, custom dies, and that adds to the cost fast.

[tomme boy]

The only Remington 700 that has the 7.62 Nato chamber is the M24. Most of the 308 win rifles are 1-12 except the Tacticals with the 20" or shorter barrels. For a short time some of the PSS models were 1-10 but they moved back to the 1-12 for most except for the oddball 5r barreled one which is a 1-11.5"

I am really surprised by the factory 700 shooting this good. It must have a very worn throat to get rid of the groove of the off center chamber that every single one I have ever seen has.

[RickinTN]

"I am really surprised by the factory 700 shooting this good. It must have a very worn throat to get rid of the groove of the off center chamber that every single one I have ever seen has."

I have one I have worked with a little which has the offset chamber also. It is only about .0005" but it is there. I would have never known working only with jacketed bullets. I found it while trying to fill the freebore section with a cast bullet. I think I remember this rifle has a .250" or so freebore section, similar to all of my later Remington rifles.
Rick

[geargnasher]

I think I'd be happier with a half inch of parallel freebore and only seating the gas check in the case neck, but we all have our own ideas, don't we? That's what makes this so fascinating to discuss.

Gear

[btroj]

Then get a throating reamer and have at it. Come on Gear, be bold! Be brave!

Your ammo is going to be pretty fragile, isn't it? Wait, you want to breech seat, don't you?

[RickinTN]

My later '06 chambers have more than .200" freebore and I consider it a plus. To my thinking having a snug fit in the long freebore helps with bullet alignment. I do like to have the lube groove in the case neck however.:)
Rick

[geargnasher]

Then get a throating reamer and have at it. Come on Gear, be bold! Be brave!

Your ammo is going to be pretty fragile, isn't it? Wait, you want to breech seat, don't you?

:bigsmyl2:

I could do the same thing with a 120-grain bullet and a grease groove in the middle of the throat angle. Don't think I haven't considered it.

Gear

[dtknowles]

Then get a throating reamer and have at it. Come on Gear, be bold! Be brave!

Your ammo is going to be pretty fragile, isn't it? Wait, you want to breech seat, don't you?

I think some of us don't really know what we want, we just want to play with bullets. I know that the whole shoot less than 2 MAO with linear dispersion from 100 to 200 yards at 2600 to 2900 fps is not where I am going. I hope I got that at least close to the original 30XCB goals. Where I shoot 100 yards is it. I already shoot much under 2 MOA and paper could care less about velocity.

I would like to shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with a plain base bullets from mostly stock rifles in the mid price range. Another related goal. I would like my rifles that I choose to shoot with cast bullets to shoot to their potential with bullets I cast.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Tim, Ben has posted a lot about doing just that. I think he mostly shoots at 50-yards. 7-8 grains of most medium pistol powders and a well-fitted plain-based bullet will get you there with some toying around.

Gear

[dtknowles]

I think I'd be happier with a half inch of parallel freebore and only seating the gas check in the case neck, but we all have our own ideas, don't we? That's what makes this so fascinating to discuss.

Gear

Wouldn't a half inch be too much, oh but you did not say what bullet.

But seriously, I have a 30 BR for which I guess I need to select a bullet mould. It has a 1 in 16 twist and I would not expect to use a bullet heavier than 130 grains. I guess I need to do a pound cast to see what the lead and throat are like. I was leaning toward Loverin style bullets but the neck is short. Suggestions

Tim

[dtknowles]

I don't know anyone getting any sort of what I'd call "accuracy" at HV using Loverin-style (or more specifically, the narrow-banded Lyman iterations) using regular twists. Best I ever did was with a honed-out 266469 in the Swedish Mauser, got to around 2200 fps with consistent MOA accuracy, but they were hard bullets and a lot of tricks used to get them pushed along straight.

If you have a Loverin style bullet in .30 caliber, have a go with it and see what you get. They shoot really well in the normal range and some have demonstrated they can still do pretty well at elevated velocities in slow-twist barrels, so you can draw your own conclusions about their inherent shortcomings (hint: Bearing surface). Now you're thinking "well, the silhouette style has very little bearing surface", to which I reply, "not if you launch it correctly".

Gear

I don't have any Loverin style bullets but the seem to have a lot of bearing surface and it is distributed along the length so they should stay straight. How does how you launch a bullet change its bearing surface?

I don't know anyone getting any sort of accuracy with any sort of cast rifle bullet Loverin or otherwise. I read stuff here and give it consideration. I used to read "The Foulng Shot" but the articles were not much help. I did check the scores and groups but everyone used faster twist and heavier bullets. I want to give this barrel a shot before I think about changing it.

Tim

[Bjornb]

Wouldn't a half inch be too much, oh but you did not say what bullet.

But seriously, I have a 30 BR for which I guess I need to select a bullet mould. It has a 1 in 16 twist and I would not expect to use a bullet heavier than 130 grains. I guess I need to do a pound cast to see what the lead and throat are like. I was leaning toward Loverin style bullets but the neck is short. Suggestions

Tim

311465 should fit the bill. NOE makes a version. Small Loverin, 122 grs. I could send you some.

[dtknowles]

311465 should fit the bill. NOE makes a version. Small Loverin, 122 grs. I could send you some.

That is a nice offer. Thanks

Tim

[btroj]

Tm, I want good groups at 100 yards. I could care less about what happens beyond 100 yards, linear or otherwise. Not everyone has the same goals and to my knowledge there was never a set purpose for the XCB other than to see how well it could shoot and how fast it could do so. if other criteria were set it wasn't a discussion I was ever part of.
I would be thrilled to find a solid 1 inch or less shooting load so,I can use it for testing lubes and other things. Having a solid control load allows for so much other work to be done under controlled settings.

[303Guy]

I think if I was going to be target shooting, I would not size my cases. I would notch the rim of the case, so that it could be chambered the same every time, and then use brass with a thick even neck, where the bullet is just a snug fit. If we are single loading at a bench, we don't need to worry about bullets getting shoved back into the case during recoil or when cycling the action. And then all the cases are fit to the chamber, and are the same way every time.This is my thinking. I plan on seating the boolit using a stiff-ish lube in unsized necks. I wan just a snug fit with no tension. I have tried this once before and it did work. For milder recoil it even works for magazine feeding.

My method of loading for the 22 hornet was to make a paper towel cup that held the bullet snugly in the unsized neck in an oversized chamber neck area the dipping the bullet into molten 'waxy-lube' which would soak up into the paper towel cup and hold the bullet fast. of course it required some tricks to overcome the low but consistent bullet grip and that involved compressing the Lil'Gun powder tightly before setting the cup in place. Accuracy and velocity was impressive. I had no success with the paper cup and cast boolits but then I didn't try very hard.

[btroj]

Gear, your inbox is full.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I love reading these type of threads.
I have nothing to add right now, but am making a post,
so it will come up on my searches (my way of surfing through CB)

[Bullshop Junior]

I don't usually leave the lock nuts loose, but I do wait to tighten them until there is a round up in the die after making all the adjustments, then I will lock it all down. I have never checked for runout before, but I believe I will be looking at it more once I get my new loading room set up. All of my gun stuff is packed up in rubbermaid tubs right now.

[geargnasher]

About the lube and lubing only one groove or just the area above the gas check, I have found that to be very true as well in the past with certain guns. Finding "lube boogers" on 100 yard targets, accompanied by flyers, started me on the all-consuming quest for a better, more versatile lube. Since then I've found that lube with lower viscosity (softer) and less slick (softened with paraffinic rather than napthenic oils) fixes that problem and you can lube as many or as few grooves as you like.

Gear

[Doc Highwall]

I just checked my Remington 40X and it has 7.62 NATO stamped on the barrel and has a 1-12" twist and the only bullet that I have shot in it so far is the SAECO #315 175gr TCGC at about 2000 fps with 30:1 alloy. My record 5 shot groups at 100 yards is .305" and at 300 yards is 1.610". I am working on getting everything set to do a more extensive testing session including neck tension and bullet diameters followed by a lube test.

I have a strain gage attached to the gun already with data that I have gathered that has led me to invest a considerable amount on money in things to complete this project in a scientific manner with only one variable at a time.

Check out my post #47.

[geargnasher]

Doc, I'm glad you're still plugging along with that little project. I'm going to post your customized in-line die link again here in case others didn't check it out earlier in the thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?90241-Modifying-Dies-For-Cast-Bullet-Shooting

Gear

[cainttype]

Linear accuracy at 200 and 300 yards with HV cast was the idea behind the 30 XCB project from the beginning, if memory serves me correctly.
I find the whole idea of HV pursuit with cast interesting, having quite a bit of over-lap to long-standing benchrest prepping.
It isn't anything I'm likely to devote time to, but I do appreciate the dialog and info being contributed by those of you that do. With group participation like this, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the success rate rapidly climb. It will provide an excellent referrence source for everyone with the same goal in the future.

[tomme boy]

Ah the 40X. Forgot all about that one. It is a one off build like the M40's maybe that is why they use the 7.62 chamber. The barrels are hand selected out of the standard barrels. They find the best ones to use.

[Bjornb]

I just checked my Remington 40X and it has 7.62 NATO stamped on the barrel and has a 1-12" twist and the only bullet that I have shot in it so far is the SAECO #315 175gr TCGC at about 2000 fps with 30:1 alloy. My record 5 shot groups at 100 yards is .305" and at 300 yards is 1.610". I am working on getting everything set to do a more extensive testing session including neck tension and bullet diameters followed by a lube test.

I have a strain gage attached to the gun already with data that I have gathered that has led me to invest a considerable amount on money in things to complete this project in a scientific manner with only one variable at a time.

Check out my post #47.

Doc,
that's some outstanding shooting. I'm familiar with that rifle; a friend shoots one (cast only) with a European diopter sight. It's got a worn throat, thus it was retired to cast-only and it's doing a standout job.
What is the powder of choice for that load?

[cbrick]

My goal isn't just HV with accuracy for a few rounds, but rather, the ability to maintain accuracy (2moa or less at 500m) for extended strings of fire along with enough residual energy to reliably knock down 47# steel rams.

Ah, rifle silhouette. :mrgreen: Not residual energy, what your looking for is momentum in pound seconds. Momentum is what takes down those rams, when figuring momentum bullet weight is worth about 4 times what velocity is worth. It is said by those that study such things that a minimum of .75 pound seconds is needed to reliably take down a properly set ram (key words are "properly set"). There are however bullet proof rams that laugh at such things.

Momentum in Pound Seconds
Multiply the bullet weight in grains by the velocity at impact. Divide the product by 226,000 (a gravimetric Constant).
Example: 44 caliber 240 grain bullet 200 yard velocity of 985 fps. 240 x 985 = 236400 divided by 226,000 = 1.046 pound-seconds momentum.

If you have a 100 grain bullet at X velocity and want to double the momentum you could use a 200 grain bullet at the same velocity as the 100 gr, or you could use the same 100 gr bullet and raise the velocity by 400%

Rick

[detox]

Detox, thank you for the pic and explanation. Looks like the leade tapers are mismatched by well over 1.5 degrees per side, and longer freebore helps. Mismatching the tapers helps make the swaging less sudden. Have you hardness-tested your linotype? Hope you don't mind all the questions, I'm just really interested in dissecting all the fine details of how you got a NATO chamber, in I'm assuming ten-inch twist rate, to shoot 2500 fps with just over MOA accuracy, because that's REALLY tough to do and a couple of us have done it at 2400 fps, I'd like to see what we did differently and what we did the same.

I'm assuming you have the 26" Varmint-contour, 1-in-10" barrel on your VS?

Gear

My linotype measures exactly 22bhn using my SAECO hardness tester.

I hear all Remingtons chambered in 308 have the larger NATO chamber. This lowers pressure for safety reasons.


My Remington 700 BDL Varmint Synthetic has a 26" length with 1/12 twist Varmint contour barrel. Gun was manufactured in 1996 and has H-S Precision stock. Lots of these guns out there.

[detox]

Ah the 40X. Forgot all about that one. It is a one off build like the M40's maybe that is why they use the 7.62 chamber. The barrels are hand selected out of the standard barrels. They find the best ones to use.

Hart supplies the barrels for these and yes it has the larger 308 NATO chamber.

[detox]

Internet misinformation? Say it isnt so!

Those are some very nice groups for 2200 fps.

Its the truth. I will see if I can back it up next trip. One good five shot group means nothing if you cannot do it consistantly

[btroj]

Detox, the Internet misinformation comment was directed to something Gear said, not you. I suppose my two part answer was easy to take out of context.

Those are nice groups, I have no doubt they will be pretty repeatable.

[Pilgrim]

For my .358 Win. I started using a .360 sizer in my RCBS lubrisizer. The boolits are probably .359 (haven't measured them as no need at this time) from my alloy and casting temperatures (unknown...hot melted Pb is the criteria here). The sized boolits have a very thin lube coating on them besides the full lube grooves when removed from the die. I went to the oversized lube die based upon Harris' tests reported in RIFLE magazine. For me it worked in the .358. I tried a .225 die for my .223 boolits (RCBS 22-55-FP IIRC) and accuracy immediately improved over using the .224 die. No leading in either case. Don't recall the powder amount but the powder was red dot. The load I tried gave me a .224" 5 shot 100 yd. group, bench rest. A couple other 5 shot groups with that same combo on the same day were huge compared to the 1st group. I think they were in the 1" category. I suspect that .224 group was a fluke when everything came together "just right", but I intend to go back to that rifle and load and work some more with it, starting with absurdly anal boolit examination acceptance criteria. The only case prep I was using back then was primer pocket uniforming. Standard RCBS reloading die set with (most likely) an RCBS "M" die. I have a couple of in line bullet seating dies and will fool around with those as well, using a standard seating die to take the bell out of the case (if necessary). Shooting with the case slightly belled (if they will chamber) may help with accuracy as well as it may help insure a centered case. If the cases are all trimmed exactly the same, the "bells" should be the same. Assuming the dies are straight and the inline seating dies should take care of that particular problem. FWIW....Pilgrim

[runfiverun]

Ahh the tips in this thread will help those seeking accuracy they dont have to Be used just for high speeds
daniel indexing cases can have a positive affect and a negative consequence if your chamber is off a little the throat will take the brunt of the powder blast all In the same plAce and the same way every time
if things are lined up with the center of the barrel ea ch time it directs everything directly forward
every pull of the trigger


i am kind of surprised no one has mentioned manipulating a powders burn speed slightly by altering the timing of the boolit fully engraving the rifling and sealing the grooves

[tomme boy]

DuPlexing the powder?

[Bullshop Junior]

Ive been wondering about duplex loads, But I suppose we need to get our cartridges straight and our boolits balanced before we start mixing powders

[btroj]

i am kind of surprised no one has mentioned manipulating a powders burn speed slightly by altering the timing of the boolit fully engraving the rifling and sealing the grooves

Isnt that sort of what the 30 Sil does? With the tapered nose you can adjust when it fully engraves the rifling. Seated deep the most hardly touches the lands or seated long the steeped angle is hard into the throat. We have control over when in the burn curve we hit the throat. I like the nose just touching the lands. It holds center well but gives less contact for initial rifling engraving. I like having this first engraving happen at a lower pressure rather than having lots of contact where we need more pressure to get the bullet moving.

think of what happens when you change seating depgpth with jacketed? A load that is fine seated off the lands can give a pressure spike of loaded into the lands. Why would cast behave any different?

[cbrick]

think of what happens when you change seating depgpth with jacketed? A load that is fine seated off the lands can give a pressure spike of loaded into the lands. Why would cast behave any different?

Probably the same effect with cast but I would think to a lessor degree considering it takes less effort to engrave cast as opposed to a jacket.

Rick

[cbrick]

Duplex loads? Not for me thanks, the knowledge to do so safely is above my pay grade. You can get yourself in big trouble really fast doing that without knowing what effect one powder will have on the other, pressure spikes etc.

The 454 Casull was born from triplex loads in 45 colt cases. I assume Dick Casull was a much better educated ballistician than I am. He still had both eyes and all fingers but he never did publish how many guns it took to figure it out.

Rick

[tomme boy]

Hart has supplied the barrel starting in 2009. Before that, they were ALL made in house. Were most people think they were made by Hart was there is an inspection stamp on the barrel that is a Heart not Hart.

[45 2.1]

I don't know anyone getting any sort of what I'd call "accuracy" at HV using Loverin-style (or more specifically, the narrow-banded Lyman iterations) using regular twists. Gear

A long time ago we did a Lee GB using a modified by me Lyman 311407 design. For once Lee cut it to spec. and it shot very very well for me at HV.

[Doc Highwall]

Bjornb, the powder I used in the shooting was AA5744 and by using the pressure trace I found out that there is a slight delay in powder ignition on some shots due to a low loading density with out a filler. I have bought some 2400 powder to try to see if that will eliminated the delay and I could use it in other cartridges as well.

This post http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?90241-Modifying-Dies-For-Cast-Bullet-Shooting will show the dies that I made.

The tests will be made with bullet diameters of .3100",.3105" and .3110". The expanders for these test will be .3090", .3095" and .3100" so that when I change from a .3100" bullet with a 3090" expander for a .001" neck tension to a .3105" bullet I will use a .3095" expander maintaining a .001" neck tension but the bullet will now be .0005" larger being the only change.

[45 2.1]

I am kind of surprised no one has mentioned manipulating a powders burn speed slightly by altering the timing of the boolit fully engraving the rifling and sealing the grooves

It has been mentioned several times, but at that time nobody wanted to play with HV loads..... the usual statement was: not needed, don't want to duplex, don't want to use buffer... etc. There are several ways to shoot HV (at full cartridge velocity for the boolit weight) with accuracy that have been in print for at least the last 60 years. Most of them are somewhat tedious though. I know quite a few guys on this forum that did so with very hard boolits back in the 70's.

[btroj]

Tedious is of no concern to me.

Talk to us Bob, what about buffer. What do we do and how? What buffer? How much?

[geargnasher]

There are several ways to shoot HV (at full cartridge velocity for the boolit weight) with accuracy that have been in print for at least the last 60 years. Most of them are somewhat tedious though.

Like paper jackets?

How about other ways, care to give a reading list?

Gear

[45 2.1]

care to give a reading list? Gear

Paper patching
copper driving bands
zinc alloy
very hard babbit.... >30 BHN
various boosted loads
etc.

[45 2.1]

Tedious is of no concern to me.

Talk to us Bob, what about buffer. What do we do and how? What buffer? How much?

Buffer is useful in sharper shouldered case in overbore condition..... in shallower shouldered cases, all it becomes is filler. See the list I made for Gear for the current possibilities.

[RED333]

Dadburn guys, more info than a country boy can take in for a year.
I still got to get my boolits and cases straight, but keep the info coming.

[geargnasher]

Buffer makes a very handy filler for duplexed loads. I also found that if it's pre-compressed a little more than the usual recommendation and the proportion to powder in the case is just right, it is also useful for raising pressure/efficiency levels in cases with very long, sloping shoulders and narrow bodies while giving the bullet a more gentle, straight start.

Gear

[45 2.1]

^^^^^^^^^
Be very careful what case you do that in. Ammo loaded for a couple of months like that in some cartridges can have significant pressure increases. I've ran into that in a couple of cartridges in the past.

[geargnasher]

COW scared the tar out of me a long time ago, not shooting it, but pulling down some old BP 45/90 loads. The COW had sucked the moisture out of the powder/air and had become exactly like hardened Durham's water putty. Yes, you do have to be careful. So far zero problems with rounds loaded just past two years ago, (just shot some of those this past weekend to good varmint-dispatching effect), but I use the synthetic buffer, not cereal stuff, and I have a pretty sound understanding of how it behaves in various case shapes with various powder types. I never use cereal grain fillers here due to humidity.

Gear

[Bullshop Junior]

A long time ago we did a Lee GB using a modified by me Lyman 311407 design. For once Lee cut it to spec. and it shot very very well for me at HV.

I have this mold.

[303Guy]

Here is a thought. It may exist, and I may not have seen it, but I am gonna flap my thumbs anyway.

I have seen several post, mostly from r5r about feeling how much pressure it takes to seat the bullet, and separating them by lot on how the bullet seats.

What if we add a pressure gauge to the seating die to regulate how much pressure it used. You could defiantly be more accurate with a gauge then my feel I would think.That sounds like a great idea! Very easy to do for a machinist.

[fcvan]

This has been a most inspiring thread. So many things to consider, many of which I may never try but are certainly worth consideration while striving for improvement. Having loaded mostly cast for handgun for 40 years I have only recently started loading cast for rifles.


My initial rifle loads were for plinking with a Mini 14. Ok, I take that back. I started shooting cast in a Marlin 1894 in 41 Mag, and that was 27 years ago. It shot my handgun loads just fine and I don't really consider it a rifle load. Back to cast in a rifle. Lyman 225-415, 14 grains of IMR 4227, roughly 2250 fps. I wanted the gun to cycle and kill cans. My idea of accuracy was 'minute of soda can.' Not a very high bar but it was a starting point.


i started out lubing with Lars White Label BAC and found it to be more than adequate. Gas checks were store bought and then I started getting checks from another member here. After a long but patient wait I finally got my CheckMaker die from PatMarlins. Making my own checks has been very rewarding and part of my whole 'make my own' mindset. Then I started powder coating instead of lube.


Powder coating the little 225-415 boolits really helped the fragile nature of lead projectiles surviving the cycling through the Mini 14. PC toughens up the nose and reduced the deformation of the small flat point of the nose. Then last year, I built an AR 15 style rifle. Different barrel length, different rate of twist.


The Mini now sits idle as the AR is a lot of fun! The feed ramps are different and the boolit survives the trip. The gas system stays clean as a whistle. Tin cans at 100 yards don't survive long. Then I built a 300 AAC Blackout 6 months ago. The Mini 14 sits behind the AR 15 in 5.56 and they are both getting neglected.


I have been casting the Lee 312-155 2R, powder coating with an electrostatic gun, making my own checks, sizing to .311, and loading over the 4227. If it sounds like I've been changing too many things to really concentrate on improving one load for one gun, you are right. But, thanks to this site, I've been taking a methodological approach. Fire forming the brass while finding a starting load that cycles, measuring the cases and adjusting the dies, measuring the cartridges to ensure they chamber properly. Instantly, tin cans at 100 yards began quaking in fear. Then last month, I picked up a Springfield Armory M1A in 7.62, and 2 days later, a Sig Saur 716, both too cheap to pass up.


So now I'm loading 300 blk and .308 Win. Same 312-155 2R, casting cadence adjusted to give consistent weight, better ESPC application for more consistent thickness, adjusting the gas check dies for better seating. If that sounds like a lot of little changes, you are correct. And a lot of shooting between each change.


The last 2 variables were thickness of check material and annealing of the check material before punching the checks. Amerimax .014 material works much better when annealed by immersing the strips into my alloy. Very fast, very repeatable. Very consistent 'minute of soda can' accuracy, actually better. I've got very good starting loads and am working on tweaking for more accuracy. Something else I learned from this website.


All of this to say I'm merely at the beginning of truly wringing out the accuracy from the rifles for which I cast. I will try to push the velocity and see where the sweet spot is for each.


I haven't taken to annealing brass as of yet but am looking to dipping into lead and work up a means to consistently anneal without affecting the rest of the case. My first thoughts, for which I would like feedback, is aluminum jaw inserts to a set of pliers to act as a heat sink to keep the temp from creeping toward the base of the case. I don't know if putting some sort of temperature probe into the jaws would help in keeping the annealing process consistent. Sure, there are fancy machines for such things but I'm trying to think outside the box so any input would be appreciated.


So, how high the velocity? As high as the threshold of accuracy. What degree of accuracy? For now, I'm pretty happy with 'minute of soda can' at 100 yards. I'm doing that now with my starting loads in the 2100-2300 fps category shooting the 312-155 2R, cast from 50/50 WW/range scrap alloy, powder coated with copper colored powder, sized to .311 using gas checks punched from annealed aluminum flashing, while standing and shooting off-hand. I can't wait to actually punch some paper from a bench and have some pictures to post with consistent results. This is fun!

[PAT303]

Here is one more picture

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8107_zps24d9ed36.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8107_zps24d9ed36.jpg.html)
Loving this thread but you blokes are very hard on yourselves,this group shot with HV cast is better than what 99% of factory rifles could do with jacketed,you fellers should remember that. Pat

[tomme boy]

Your right, it is very good! But we want better. For me it is all about trying get the groups as small as I can. I spent 3 years working on a 243 win. after getting it to shoot down into the 0.1" range, I sold it as that was my goal. It got boring after that.

That was one of the reasons I went to shooting cast. It is much more challenging than shooting jacketed.

We are a strange bunch of guys that are shooting this lead out of our rifles. We are the guys that normally all our friends come to when they need to know about something gun related. We shake our heads at most all the groups we see at the shooting ranges and say to ourselves " did he have his eyes closed when shooting them groups?" I know I catch myself doing it.

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks for putting up this thread. I'd love to take my rifle casting/shooting to another level (beyond the status quo) I have been reading the thread with interest, and taking notes as I do. I do have a couple of questions:

1) The two 30 cal molds I have been recently working with are the RCBS 165 SIL, and the Lyman 311299. While I have been able to take them to 2000 fps +/- in a 1903 Springfield 30-06, going beyond that accuracy falls off rather quickly. Would a different boolit/mold be worth looking at? I see mention of the NOE 30XCB.

2) Would I be wasting my time trying to get 2300-2500 fps (with accuracy) in a milsurp rifle? The bore & muzzle is quite good <2, throat erosion @3. I see that many are using custom rifles or match/varmint grade rifles. I'm up for a challenge, but 1/10 twist may be a major handicap?

Thoughts on this? Thanks.

[geargnasher]

Shooter, based on what I know you can expect 2250-2300 fps with a lot of work and some techniques already mentioned, but beyond the scope of this thread. There may be other ways, like with your 311299 and some tough alloy. Point being, just because it's a worn milsurp doesn't mean it won't shoot cast very, very well at elevated speeds. I can and have shot scattergun patterns, even missing the paper several times, at 100 yards, with my bench rifle and match-prepped, properly fitted brass. The inverse can also be true with ordinary military and sporting rifles.

Gear

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks Gear. The rifle has been a very good shooter with cast. I'm going to apply some of the things Iv'e learned here and see if I can push the envelope a little.

[PAT303]

Good point,is a normal military throat or a normal factory throat suitable for cast?. Pat

[btroj]

Why not? I have long stated that I am far more interested in learning what it takes to make Joe Anyrifles gun shoot than I am in making it an excercise in gunsmithing.

[MBTcustom]

Why not? I have long stated that I am far more interested in learning what it takes to make Joe Anyrifles gun shoot than I am in making it an excercise in gunsmithing.

So are you doing any testing with Mil-surps?

[btroj]

I only own one and it is currently residing at someone else's house. Short answer, no mil surp testing.
Milsurps just don't interest me much.

[runfiverun]

Shooter id look at another mold
you want to mimic the throats shape and a bore rider doesn't do that

the rifling will also have an impact on how things go if you look at a true love rig n desig it will generally mimic that worn throat pretty well if you fill in some of those lube grooves with lead it will grab the rifling and hold it even better
think about that tapered design for a second and why you can seat the boolit out of the case
add in more strength and more surface area to resist deformation and twisting upon engraving

[ShooterAZ]

OK.....I checked out a couple of molds. What about this one? http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=82

[detox]

Loaded NOE 30XCB 165gr shown next to chamber pound cast. Chamber is worn factory Remington 308 NATO. Bullet will be pushed back 1/64" deeper in case when chambered. Linotype Bullet is sized .0001-.0005 smaller than free bore of chamber cast. Alox lube

My NOE 30XCB bullets measure .3125 as cast using Linotype alloy.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8111_zps2c11b481.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8111_zps2c11b481.jpg.html)

[detox]

Got more rounds loaded for testing.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8112_zps5b461775.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8112_zps5b461775.jpg.html)

[detox]

Most Mil-Surp have larger diameter and longer free bore. A pound cast will help lots when figuring. The NOE 30XCB matches these types of throats well and should shoot better than loose fitting bore riders. It is very important to size your bullets .0001-.0005 smaller than freebore for best accuracy.

[cbrick]

Look at those rounds in post #173, ain't that Purdy? Almost to Purdy to shoot. Ok, not quite that Purdy but almost.

Rick

[ShooterAZ]

Yes they are Purdy. This gives me some very good reasons to purchase some more molds. I'm going to do a couple of pound casts and go shopping. I'm also going to order some linotype from Rotometals.

[ShooterAZ]

Good reasons to buy more rifles too.....

[tomme boy]

How about fitting a boolit to the throat? As in how to make the best fit possible. I know there was talk about two different types of fit. But what are they and how does it work?

[tomme boy]

Come on guys, I want to keep this going!

[geargnasher]

How about fitting a boolit to the throat? As in how to make the best fit possible. I know there was talk about two different types of fit. But what are they and how does it work?

Two basic ways I know work in normal twists at higher-than-normal cast velocities. Basically, if you have some parallel freebore in the throat, you can cast a very hard, tough bullet and size it exactly to fit. Parallel bore-riding nose fitted very closely, matching throat angle, and freebore matched for a snug, slip-fit when chambering. Fireformed brass so the datum point centers the cartridge and supports the shoulder then firing. This truly gives the bullet nowhere to go but straight, and the load should be designed so that the bullet can be driven fully into the throat with the base flush before the pressure becomes high enough to rivet the base or bend it crooked. The trick is to keep the force required to engrave to the point that the gas check is in the freebore section BELOW the force required to bend the bullet base or rivet it. I believe you sold Runfiverun the mould he's using in a factory .308 Win barrel to shoot 2400 fps with extremely good accuracy. His alloy IIRC is basically water-quenched Taracorp Magnum, 92/6/2, he'll confirm I'm sure if my memory is off.

The other way, and what you more or less have to do if you are trying for HV accuracy in an autoloader, is to give everything some room to "self-align", but you need a bullet shape that will cooperate and you need to get your case neck tension, neck clearance, alloy composition, and powder selection all tuned exactly right so the bullet wiggles in exactly straight to the throat and then, as it's engraving, slug up into the exact center of the bore like a BPCR bullet. Timing the pressure exactly and using just exactly the right alloy is the only way to make it work, and it TAKES lots of work if you're like me and hack away at it rather blindly. I've gotten three rifles to shoot extremely well using this method, though none of them were auto-loaders. I wanted to learn the technique for future reference in cast the AR-10 bug bit me, or if I decide to work with an M1A.

Gear

[PAT303]

Gear,so what you are saying is we should not have the front band of the boolit pressed into the throat but seated into the case a bit to allow the boolit to engage the rifling first with the base of the boolit secured by the case?,sorry for the Q's but you have all of our attention. Pat

[45 2.1]

I've gotten three rifles to shoot extremely well using this method, though none of them were auto-loaders. I wanted to learn the technique for future reference in cast the AR-10 bug bit me, or if I decide to work with an M1A. Gear

You'll need to learn quite a bit more when you do that. The requirements are as different as smokeless versus blackpowder rifle loads. When you can make most all rifles shoot 1.25 MOA or smaller at higher velocities, then you have a good basis to stand on.

[Bjornb]

I have been asked by a member to re-post Larry Gibson's latest HV test in this forum. I posted it yesterday in the Special Projects forum, but I realize that this main Cast Boolits forum gets more traffic, and this is a very impressive test that deserves to be presented to the members at large.
The reason why this document is posted by me and not directly by Larry is that he is having major computer/internet problems that may take some time to resolve, and he is currently limited to posting here from his smartphone.


Bjorn

As you mentioned the BHN of Larry’s #2 alloy WQ’d NOE XCB bullets is 21. That alloy and that bullet when properly sized at .311 and lubed with 2500+ provides less than 2 moa accuracy to 2700+ fps so far. That has been out of my Palma rifle in .308W with a 14” twist 27.6” long barrel.

That rifle is a far cry from a $1500 rifle. And a $1500 rifle is not all that expensive for a tricked out rifle these days. My Palma rifle is on a WWII byf (Mauser) M98 with a takeoff barrel (taken off because it did not shoot to the original owner’ requirement) in a 1st attempt at a Kevlar/fiberglass copy of a Savage 112V stock I fished out of a garbage can. I put the barrel on the action myself. The face of the barrel was square and the shoulder was relieved to just kiss the front of the receiver when the face butted up tight against the internal shoulder. I had to finish ream the chamber to minimal headspace and used a M118 Match reamer. It is just bedded correctly and it shoots very accurately.

I am not disparaging balanced and blue printed actions and barrels by any means. I expect Tim will do an excellent job of such on the VZ24 M98 I am sending him to put the 30” Broughton barrel with the 16” twist on. Everything that can be done to keep the cartridge and bullet concentric with the bore should be done. Especially if we are to remain true to the original objective of the concept of higher velocity with accuracy for which the 30x57, the 30 XCB and the 30 XCB NOE bullet have been developed for. The “high velocity with accuracy” is going to remain relative based on the barrel length, the twist used and the cast bullet weight. The “accuracy” will also remain relative to the bullet weight, design, alloy, care in casting and selection and the acceleration rate used to attain a given velocity relative to the barrel twist.

The original goal was to achieve 2800 + fps with 2 moa or less accuracy with10 shot groups while holding linear dispersion to 300 or longer ranges. We know we can achieve such accuracy with a 10” twist barrel to 2200 +/- fps. We know we can achieve such accuracy to 2400 +/- fps with a 12” twist barrel. Yes there are some who claim higher velocities with such accuracy using 3 or 5 shot groups. I have done so myself at 100 yards. However the test is with 10 shot groups for a reliable/surety measure of the accuracy and that linear dispersion remains consistent at longer range. While it is easy to do with 3 and sometimes 5 shot groups at 100 yards it is indeed “hard” to do with 10 shot groups and to ensure the linear expansion as the range increases. The “easy way” most often leads us to a false answer while the “hard way”, though difficult, leads us to the correct answer.

The trick now is to achieve 2500 – 2600+ fps with such 2 moa or less accuracy using a 14” twist barrel. The 30 XCB/ 30x57 cartridge is an excellent cartridge to use. It can be done also with the .308W as I’ve demonstrated numerous times. I will demonstrate it again now with the .308W cartridge, the NOE 30 XCB bullet and the 14” twist Palma rifle described above.

Let’s discuss the NOE 30 XCB bullet (310-165-FN). This bullet was designed by several of us with the idea of a perfect fit in the ’06 neck length with the GC at the base of the neck and the beginning of the ogive just bumping up against the leade, a bearing surface of 60% +, a nose giving a decent BC w/o any bore riding portion and having a small meplat. The NOE XCB bullet is the result and it is proving to be the best high velocity .30 caliber design. The only design that comes close to the NOE XCB in actual high velocity performance/accuracy is the Lyman 311466. I learned a long time ago it didn’t matter what I “liked” or thought “looked good”. If it didn’t work I don’t use it any more. I don’t care who designed the bullet either. If it works at high velocity or gives the performance desired I will use it. If it doesn’t I won’t use it.

A lot has been bandied about the “balance” of the cast bullet. It is even now suggested that swaging will balance the bullet. It won’t if the alloy is not itself a correct balance of lead to antimony to tin. The antimony and tin must be balance together to form sufficient SbSn (the sub metal) that is in solution with the lead and does not exceed the solubility limit of the lead. While the tin, if in excess, readily blends with lead the antimony does not. The antimony will harden first creating small pockets of that metal in the lead. Since antimony is much less dense than lead those antimony pockets create imbalances. There must be a correct balance of antimony to tin to form SbSn and that sub metal should be close to but not exceed the solubility limit to stay in solution in the lead. If such is not the case then all the visual selection, weight sorting and swaging in the world won’t put that Humpy Dumpy back together again. Quality cast bullets of a correct and suitable alloy are a must if high velocity is the goal.

I don’t cogitate on “launch philosophy”. I measure it, understand what is and what isn’t and then use the science of it to move forward to higher velocity with accuracy. Yes I have the benefit of measuring such. I have not withheld any information and have shared. Some listen, some don’t. I have learned to observe the many times subtle differences between a load that is accurate and one that isn’t given the same relative velocity. One has to look at the accuracy on target, the internal ballistics (SD & ES of the velocities and pressures), the area under the pressure curve (proportional to bullet impulse and momentum) and the rise of the pressure curve (measured in microseconds and indicates the actual burn rate of the powder).

Much ado has also been mentioned about neck clearance, turning necks, etc. While it is important to give case longevity, keep the bullet from unwanted obturation and keeping the bullet concentric to the bore is it necessary for accuracy? I certainly used to think so and will have a tight neck in my Broughton barrel chamber but I have come to find the answer is not always so concrete. In some case it certainly is necessary but is some cases it doesn’t seem to matter. With the harder bullets we are using and the slower burning powders the bullet is out of the case neck and engraved into the rifling well before enough pressure is generated to obdurate the bullet. How do I know this? First the neck clearance on my Palma .308W chamber neck is .006” which hardly supports the bullet while still in the case neck. Second, I measure it. Look at the pressure trace (time/pressure curve) on the three tests. Note the initial pressure rise and then slightly drop off. That is the bullet entering into the bore, swaging from .311 to .308 and being engraved by the rifling. It is very noticeable with slower burning powders. At 2704 fps the accuracy is 1.6” so we have to ask if a tighter neck would make a difference. I’ll leave that to others to debate. I just use other means to ensure concentricity of the bullet/cartridge and it is working fine.

I have also learned that if one does turn necks properly there will be no “dreaded doughnut ring”. The secret is to use a mandrel the same diameter as the bullet.

At the beginning of a test session I like to warm up (after a test of the M43 system set up with reference ammunition) with a test of my SL. Here’s one done a couple days ago consisting of 12 shots. Seven shots were with the necks sized (Redding Bushing die) to give .002 - .003 tension. They went into 1.3”. The other five shots had necks giving .001 which were left over from a test of neck tension on accuracy. Those opened the group to 1.7” with vertical stringing. The internal ballistic data shows the load was excellent. However, in the actual test the lesser neck tension loads gave a lower velocity with a higher SD & ES and a larger group size, mostly vertical stringing. The group here again told the real tale (matches the results of the test) and is why I recommend .002 - .003” neck tension. I only recorded 8 of the shots as I thought I had put gas in the generator (range doesn’t have electricity) but hadn’t and then the battery in the computer died…….oops!

119754
So let’s look at an example of how we move forward by understanding what is actually happening. First example is one test of my “standard load” for the NOE bullet and the load used to test Bjorn’s bullets. It is 47 gr of AA4350 under the NOE 30 XCB bullet in Winchester cases using WLR primers. Out of the 14” twist Palma rifle this load averages 2565 – 2605 fps for 10 shot test strings given the usual variations in test to test averages and depending on the temperature and conditions of the day when tested. The 40 fps average velocity of different test strings is well within the “inclusion standards” of SAAMI.

The accuracy of the SL (“standard load”) group at 1.65” is very close enough for comparative purposes to the accuracy of the second example (LvR) at 1.6”. Note the internal SD & ES of the velocity and pressures of both loads are, for all practical purposes, very good. Some like to chase the lower single digit SD proclaiming some sort of excellence based on it but I can show you many very low single digit SDs with very poor accuracy. Single digit SDs are easier to come by with 3 and 5 shot test strings, especially the 3 shot ones, more on the fallacy of those groups in a minute. However, when we look at the velocity of the SL at 2594 fps and then at the 2704 fps of the LvR load we wonder; why only 2594 fps with the AA4350 load and the much higher 110 fps faster 2704 fps of the LvR load with the same basic accuracy? The answer is in the “Area” and the “Rise” data. The LvR load has the slower time pressure curve as indicated by the longer time under the pressure curve and the slower rise to pressure.

119755

119756

What we see with the LvR load is we have attained 2700+ fps with excellent accuracy using the NOE 30 XCB bullet in a 14” twist barrel. This is with the .308W cartridge which has only 1 -2 gr less load density that the 30x57/30 XCB cartridge with both case being Winchester. There is no reason a 14” twist 30 XCB rifle with at least a 26” barrel shouldn’t be able to do the same. The trick is to slow down the time pressure curve and keep the area of the pressure curve larger. But first, more on the differences between 3, 5 and 10 shot groups.

Look hard at that 1.6” group. I can find at least eight different 3 shot groups of .5” or smaller. I can find five different 5 shot groups. Had I been shooting 3 shot groups and picked any of those eight + 3 shot possibilities I could claim .5 or less “accuracy. Also there is only 12 fps ES and a very low single digit SD for the first 3 shots. Had I just shot a 5 shot group I stood a 50 – 50 chance of moa accuracy or less with an ES of 14 fps and a low single digit SD. However, the truth of the accuracy of that load is now proven to be 1.2 – 1.8 moa (10 shots of course) with linear dispersion to 300 yards. Yes a 10 shot group is “hard” but it gives us the real factual answer. The 3 and 5 shot groups can lead us astray.

In being able to measure the true burning rates I’ve found that with a “Rise” of 155 – 160 we can find accuracy upwards of 2600 fps with the 14” twist barrel. That is IF we also do everything else correctly. There is no one magic thing that will give us instant accuracy at such a velocity. As another example I found H414 to be a promising powder when used with the MP 30-180 Sil bullet. While. Accuracy wasn’t as good as expected above 2400 fps in my 12” twist M70 Target rifle I though it may prove out well in the 14” twist Palma under the NOE 310-165 XCB bullet. Such was not to be thought. At 2600+ fps the burning rate proved no slower than AA4350 and accuracy was never better than 2 moa. In the test below we see at 2735 fps the burning rate (159 “Rise”) was not any slower burning than AA4350. Note also the very fine single digit SD of “6” with an ES of “19” fps. That is certainly excellent but the 4.7” group size belies the fact that a low SD may not really mean much in and of itself.

119757
So, bottom line is I am sitting at 2700 fps with accuracy out of my 14” twist .308W. I will keep trying to push the velocity higher but with the RPM at 139,000 and the case capacity limited I’m not sure how much higher velocity with such accuracy can be attained. I will not be chambering the Broughton 16” twist barrel in the 30x57/30 XCB as I do not think the slight increase in powder capacity is going to be beneficial. I will have Tim run the chamber deeper as I’ve formed cases with the shoulder a tudge farther forward giving a load density of 53 gr AA4350. With that load density, the 16” twist and the 30” barrel 2800 – 2900+ fps is the goal.

To end a session of testing I always like to shoot a group of the SL just to see how the rifle does after numerous tests. Here’s one done a few days back after 100 test shots with 3 different powders had fouled the bore.

119758


Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

45 2.1, Then post up on how to make the AR style guns to shoot. This is what this post is about. For all of us to learn.

[cbrick]

Cbrick - where does the 226,000 number come from? Elastic collision with steel plate? Specific to 44 cal? You state momentum does the damage, but difference between that & energy is fps vs fps^2. I agree that either is a better measure of 'knock-down' power than fps. Just curious.

Where does the number 226,000 come from? From people that are not nearly as mathematically challenged as I am. Who came up with it? Dunno but the formula I posted in post #133 is the standard formula of determining momentum.

Rick

[geargnasher]

45 2.1, Then post up on how to make the AR style guns to shoot. This is what this post is about. For all of us to learn.

My EXACT thoughts. Help us out here.

Gear

[Pinsnscrews]

If this has not been mentioned, I would REALLY LOVE to have a Separate Area of the Forum strictly for the HV discussion. Stickied threads at the beginning could be broken down into the Separate Caliber Ranges (tiny-small-medium-large etc). We could also have a stickied thread for Mold design/designing. Another strictly for Alloy, and one for Brass working etc.

If I am being over ambitious, please ignore me :popcorn:

[dtknowles]

Where does the number 226,000 come from? From people that are not nearly as mathematically challenged as I am. Who came up with it? Dunno but the formula I posted in post #133 is the standard formula of determining momentum.

Rick

I believe that 226,000 is the conversion of grains to pounds mass, 32.2 feet per second per second times 7000 grains per pound but it does not quite match because that equals 225,400.

Tim

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, Then post up on how to make the AR style guns to shoot. This is what this post is about. For all of us to learn.


My EXACT thoughts. Help us out here. Gear


That was once offered to a mod here. It got shot down and the bridge got ripped out below the foundations. As I see it, only one person here is allowed to tell you about high velocity....... so, you take it from there. If by chance either of you do end up with a 30 caliber AR, then you could ask via PM.

[frnkeore]

Note the internal SD & ES of the velocity and pressures of both loads are, for all practical purposes, very good (In my opinion,they are double what a good target load should be, Frank). Some like to chase the lower single digit SD proclaiming some sort of excellence based on it but I can show you many very low single digit SDs with very poor accuracy.

However, in the actual test the lesser neck tension loads gave a lower velocity with a higher SD & ES and a larger group size, mostly vertical stringing.



The truth of the matter is, a bullet with a ES of 46, traveling at 2700 fps average with a BC of .28 has a point of impact difference of .12 BUT, that same bullet has a point of impact difference of .41 at 200 yards, 3.5 times as much. Not even close to linear.

Frank

[ShooterAZ]

A Mod offered up this thread, and set up the rules it will strictly abide by....So why not? Let's do some learning....please?

[45 2.1]

A Mod offered up this thread, and set up the rules it will strictly abide by....So why not? Let's do some learning....please?

If R5R posts something guaranteeing me I won't have any problems with any previous dissenters, trouble makers, or other mods who aren't exactly friendly from earlier posts, then that might happen.

[geargnasher]

there is enough interest to open a thread and discuss this openly.
it's NOT about why we CAN'T do it.
it's about what we NEED to do to make it happen, the steps we took to make it happen in our rifles, loads, brass prep, and the expectations we have of our rifles.
what worked and what didn't questions and answers nothing more.


ANY NEGATIVE POSTS OR BICKERING WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE THREAD, WITHOUT EXPLANATION AND THERE WILL BE WARNINGS AND POINTS ISSUED.
READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE IF YOU ARE IN DOUBT.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

let's get after it.

What part about this don't you get, 45 2 .1?

Gear

[Doc Highwall]

Because the force of gravity is different depending on your latitude with it being the most at poles and the least at the equator (why most space launches are closes to the equator) the speed of a falling object will differ giving a different constant. I use, 2 x 32.174 x 7000 = 450436 and if you only use, 32.174 x 7000 = 225218.

Now 226000 divided by 7000 = 32.285 fps., depends at what latitude it was corrected for will give different results.

[btroj]

If R5R posts something guaranteeing me I won't have any problems with any previous dissenters, trouble makers, or other mods who aren't exactly friendly from earlier posts, then that might happen.

Share away, I don't think Run is going to allow any trollng, baiting, or shenanigans.

[Bjornb]

A Mod offered up this thread, and set up the rules it will strictly abide by....So why not? Let's do some learning....please?

I'm 100% on board with this. Whatever is offered up, if the membership doesn't agree or like it, then the membership can try their own formulas and use whatever works for them. I'm all for shared knowledge: that doesn't mean I agree with everyone, it means that I truly enjoy having the opportunity to read about what works for others.
Then I'll try to glean from those posts what will work in MY particular situation.

Naysaying doesn't belong here: testing, explanations and PROOF belongs here.
JMHO.

[tomme boy]

I think that person you are referring to is gone now. He was banned and posts on another forum now.

Just trying to get you to post!

[geargnasher]

Gear,so what you are saying is we should not have the front band of the boolit pressed into the throat but seated into the case a bit to allow the boolit to engage the rifling first with the base of the boolit secured by the case?,sorry for the Q's but you have all of our attention. Pat

I'm not indicating "should" or "shouldn't" anything in general, just attempting to brief two ways with two different throat designs that I've made work, and so have others.

Here's a situation: Marlin .30-30 throats. I've been shooting cast out of this one rifle for 23 years now, it's the first rifle I ever put a cast bullet through. The throat is long, really just an extension of the chamber neck out past the case mouth about .200", then an abrupt throat angle of what looks to be 30 degrees or so, going straight into the rifling. You have essentially four choices of bullet fit here, that is fill it all up which would require a heeled bullet, breech seat a bore-sized bullet with a throat-sized driving band, use a tangent-ogive bullet that will reach out and touch the rifling when chambered and be sort of suspended across the throat between the rifling and the case neck, or let the bullet float and punt it across the gap. I messed a lot with the last three over the years, and the best results I got when pushing past about 1700 fps was with the last two methods. I actually, for field-practical reasons, settled on the last method for my regular ammo in this rifle now. I use the Lee group buy copy of the 311041 which casts a little over .311". I sized and gas check to .311" and crimp in the groove. The bullet hangs in space and has a huge jump. The bullet nose doesn't fit the bore, either, in fact it rattles around in there like a BB in a box car. I worked with powder and fillers forever until I finally got a combination that slips that bullet right into the throat and then hammers it from behind, swelling up the whole thing including the nose to fit the bore, BPCR-style. I didn't at first realize this was what was going on, but now do and have been attempting to recover some bullets with intact-enough noses to present as photo examples. I know as the bullets age-hardened another couple of BHN points over some months, my magic loads quit shooting well. I upped the powder charge slightly and they came back to bugholes again. Now I'm having trouble duplicating the alloy again now that I'm low on bullets, but if I have to I'll have a sample analyzed and duplicate it with foundry alloy. Basically it was 50/50 Lead&Brass.com group buy alloy which was 4% antimony, 2% tin, and 1/4% arsenic mixed with a soft, scrap shower pan liner, cast hot and frosty, quenched out of the Lee six-cavity mould and aged a few weeks. After several months it was up to 24 bhn. I'm not giving the load details but I used enough Reloder 7 to get 2100 fps in combination with BPI Original, granulated (NOT spherical) shotshell buffer. I suspect the combination of buffer and relatively fast-burning rifle powder work to achieve the end of gentle push into the throat without slamming the bullet sideways and wiping off one side, then at the right moment the pressure really spikes and the bullet is "bumped" hard to swell up and fit the throat. I haven't made it work with any other powder or without buffer when trying this bullet. Even IMR 4198, which is similar to Reloder 7 in burn rate, won't do it. I think all the extra nitroglycerin in the Reloader 7 puts the bumping energy into the bullet right at the right time, and the 4198 is too "linear" as the restriction from engraving and resulting pressure-rise increases the burn. The Reloder 7 gets hot right when it needs to. Also, there is too much or too little buffer with other powders, it only works with just this one, and there is a very interesting effect when fired and it's working right. The muzzle report is almost muffled, and the firing event is almost like a hang-fire, but not quite. Too much powder/too little buffer makes a loud muzzle blast and a "fast" sounding firing event with sharp recoil. Too much buffer and too little powder, or powder too fast, doesn't get velocity and the groups are pathetic scattergun patterns. I also think too much/too fast powder and too much buffer is extremely dangerous to be messing with, though I've not had any excessive case head expansion or other overpressure signs, it's just creepy even in the slope-shouldered .30-30 case. Neither this rifle nor the brass is particularly strong, so I worked up my experiments in a break-action .30-30 with a totally different throat and did some of my initial buffer testing with a Kevlar vest weighted over the rifle and a wire on the trigger. I'm adventurous, but not completely stupid. Anyway, I learned a bunch and wish I could prove exactly what's going on inside the gun. All I can do is tell what worked and then duplicate it in other rifles following the theories I've generated from some successes. This all started out with 45 2.1's explanation of how to get the Swedish Mausers to shoot at higher velocity with accuracy. It's all in the launch, that first inch. If you mess that up, and almost everyone does, the bullet won't be physically balanced enough to fly straight or repeatably at high RPM, hence the RPM threshold theory.

That's one way, one gun. My other .30-30 is a Savage and it gobbles up everything I feed it with no tricks. It has a tight chamber neck, virtually no throat, loves a two-diameter bullet with no taper cast of soft, bump-able alloy, and has a twelve-twist bore with deep rifling and a 24" barrel. It shoots all the way to max loads with the right alloy and several different powders and drills holes to the capacity of the cartridge, which tops out at about 2200 fps. Even if I'm not getting the launch perfect, it doesn't matter much because it's good enough for the spin rate of the bullet as fast as I can push it. The Savage .30-30 throat is a fair example of the second method I described in the previous post, where the bullet nose rides the bore upon chambering and the base doesn't have much room to shift sideways in the case neck when fired due to the tight tolerances. USUALLY this doesn't work all that well, especially at high velocity, because the bullet almost always gets crooked somehow when fired. Just because the nose is riding tight in the lands doesn't mean it's supported. Those little lands will slice right into one side and not the other when the bullet is fired if it isn't kept straight. This is where the really tough alloy and getting most of the bullet into the throat with as little pressure as possible at first helps with higher pressures and higher velocities and tight neck fit too. Bore-riders really don't self-align. They do when chambered, but when fired all sorts of bad things happen. If you keep velocities modest, the effect of launch damage is less apparent, but when you turn up the heat, the problems both inside the gun and outside exacerbate each other and the bullets start flying all over the place.

Imagine a jumbo-jet coming in for a landing with no nose gear. You have a lot of mass coming down to the tarmac at an angle, mass which has a lot of directional energy as a function of speed, or momemtum, and doesn't change direction easily. This is like a bullet heading for the rifling crooked. The jet has a very delicate fuselage, and can't take much abrasion or impact force at all without getting squished. How to avert disaster? Minimize the approach angle as much as possible in the first place, and slow the speed of the fuselage/tarmac or bullet nose/rifling collision as much as possible until everything is in contact and moving in the same direction. If your bullet is a bore-rider and the nose gets started at an angle, or gets kicked at an angle from the back when fired, it will drive right through the lands on one side and pile up into the grooves. When the rest of the bullet is crammed through the throat, the nose is now lop-sided. When it emerges from the muzzle, the bullet starts looping like a circus ride and flies though the air in a corkscrew pattern to the target. Any launch-imparted crookedness will cause this imbalance. The faster you push it, the larger the corkscrew path. Observe about where this typically happens, and you have reached what some refer to as the "RPM Threshold". Really, it's the threshold of your ability to launch the bullet straight, which can occur at very low or very high rpm/velocity, depending on a number of things. Observe the deliberately unbalanced bullet tests done over the years here, with both jacketed and cast bullets, by Larry Gibson and others, most recently Bjorn, and you'll see the RPM threshold lowered drastically. It can be raised drastically, or ignored altogether, IF you are getting balanced bullets out of the barrel straight. All that is accomplished at the casting and loading bench, and it doesn't take a special rifle to do so, or a really slow twist rifle (though it is MUCH easier with slower twists because they tolerate imbalance so much better).

I still don't understand half of this, but I get by and am learning more. I have some ideas, go test them, fall on my face a lot, and sooner or later get to where I want to go. Almost have the XCB there, did it in a .308 and have rebarreled and am about to start in on trying to do it again, still working with several other guns. Each time I get it right another piece falls into place, but one thing that seems true is there is no one recipe or method that works for everything, you have to learn about what you are REALLY trying to do when you launch that bullet, and get the alloy, bullet design, and powder charge all working together to accomplish it. The big eye opener for me was realizing that at very high velocity and pressure, one has to work WITH the bullet bump instead of trying to prevent it. You can't prevent it, you just have to make sure it happens correctly. Neither can you achieve perfect launch with perfect static fit when chambered, just because it starts straight doesn't mean it will stay that way, you have to coax the bullet straight into the bore while it's moving. Manipulating tolerances, alloy characteristics, and pressures throughout the curve seems to be what we can control, and by getting the combination right we can affect the way a bullet is guided as it transitions from case to bore.

Gear

[ShooterAZ]

Gear, thank you for taking the time and knowledge to type all that out! Wish it was all as easy as your 30-30 Savage. It's clear that no matter how you slice it, it's still going to take a lot of trial & error. For me...this part is more than half the fun. I did end up getting a new scoped M700 in 30-06 to play with, and bought a couple of new NOE molds to try as well. All of my other 30 cals (except 300 Win Mag) are milsurps. Nice rifles, but all iron sighted. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I have cast up some nice boolits and need to get to work. I'm not expecting 2500fps, but can't wait to see what the rifle will do.

[PAT303]

Absolutely,Gear,thanks for the write up. Pat

[runfiverun]

If R5R posts something guaranteeing me I won't have any problems with any previous dissenters, trouble makers, or other mods who aren't exactly friendly from earlier posts, then that might happen.

this thread is about DISCUSSING High velocity with Cast Boolits.
ANYTHING beyond that discussion will be removed.
ANYTHING detrimental to the discussion will be viewed as trolling or baiting by myself [and other mod's]

it's an open thread.
mixing powders, Duplex type loads, fillers, alloys, buffers, etc. can be discussed.


INTERPRETING THE WRITTEN INFORMATION IS AT THE USERS RISK.
THIS IS NOT A RELOADING OR INSTRUCTION MANUAL,,, REMEMBER IT IS A DISCUSSION !!!!
NOT AN ARGUEMENT!
ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE RULES!
[PERIOD]

[btroj]

That is pretty clear to me.

[geargnasher]

Gear, thank you for taking the time and knowledge to type all that out! Wish it was all as easy as your 30-30 Savage. It's clear that no matter how you slice it, it's still going to take a lot of trial & error. For me...this part is more than half the fun. I did end up getting a new scoped M700 in 30-06 to play with, and bought a couple of new NOE molds to try as well. All of my other 30 cals (except 300 Win Mag) are milsurps. Nice rifles, but all iron sighted. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I have cast up some nice boolits and need to get to work. I'm not expecting 2500fps, but can't wait to see what the rifle will do.

I wish I could put it in the form of instructions, but I don't understand enough yet to do that and it have any real use. I'm just sharing experiences and what I THINK happens, subject to change as I learn more about this stuff.

I asked myself, why does this Savage shoot so well? Then applied that to other guns. I can make it shoot very poorly, too, like if I don't turn the high side off of the neck, or if I use magnum primers with WW748 like the books say to. Too hard of an alloy leads at higher velocities and slower powders, go figure.

As to the .30-'06, if it has a standard chamber, I think you might be in for some work. I never did get my late-model CRF Model 70 to shoot well at all above 2000 fps until I did some MAJOR work to reduce the .008" total loaded neck clearance. I think that re-throating with a reamer that would open the throat entrance up to about .315" and shooting .314" bullets "John Ardito style" might prove effective with the right alloy and powder, just guessing there, but I got really good results by copper-plating the outside of my case necks up to about an interference fit and then sanding them carefully to an exact thickness and taper matching the chamber neck taper. Loaded clearance was around .0005-8" total. That's how the Accurate 31-185G got designed, trying to get HV accuracy from that rifle. With really snug case fit, it worked, and worked well. Without that self-aligning nose, a bullet that would fit a .301" bore diameter, 50/50 WW/pure alloy water-quenched, and tight necks, it flat wouldn't shoot groups at all past 2K fps. Hopefully you'll have better luck, but your options for decreasing loaded neck clearance to a reasonable value are few, and that is one thing I haven't yet figured a way around unless you jacket your bullets with something like paper or copper.

I'd really like some input from others who've done this sort of work. I have a LONG way to go yet and lots of stuff to test.

Gear

ETA, thanks R5R, I do believe that is clear.

Gear

[geargnasher]

One more thing I forgot, about the copper-plating, the stuff is too soft to cut with a case trimmer, hence the sanding. Sucks, but it does work, and even if impractical it made me a believer in the necessity of reasonably tight neck fit for HV accuracy. There are probably other ways to get around it aside from reaming the throat out and shooting very much oversized bullets, or going to really slow rifling twist rates, but I haven't found them yet. An Airsoft BB loaded in behind the bullet, backwards gas checks, and Scotch tape on the necks ALMOST works to bring back accuracy at HV with lots o' neck slop, but doesn't fix the problem entirely.

Gear

[cbrick]

Has anyone done accuracy testing with inside neck reaming vs. outside neck turning or with a combination of the two? I played with that several years ago and every attempt I made at inside neck reaming played havoc on groups. Could have been my method or my set up but I couldn't get it to work. Anyone else have experience with inside neck turning?

Yep, thanks R5R, perfectly clear. Perhaps now we can pool collective experience and knowledge and we can all benefit.

Rick

[Bjornb]

Rick, it's not you. I have yet to talk to or read about a shooter who got RELIABLE and REPEATABLE improvements from inside neck reaming. I'm sure others will disagree with me, and that's quite OK, but here's what I found when trying both methods:

When you turn the necks (outside turning) with the normal tools supplied for the task (Forster/RCBS/Lyman mini-lathe) or a hand held neck turning tool (I use a K&M neck turner), you are cutting against a mandrel and therefore achieving a controlled and even neck thickness.

An inside neck reamer will attempt to remove high spots in the inside neck area, but since there is nothing pushing against it on the outside (no outside "mandrel"), it will remove metal without at the same time controlling thickness.

I have never had any luck with inside reaming; while outside neck turning -when needed- usually helps my groups.

[Larry Gibson]

this thread is about DISCUSSING High velocity with Cast Boolits.
ANYTHING beyond that discussion will be removed.
ANYTHING detrimental to the discussion will be viewed as trolling or baiting by myself [and other mod's]

it's an open thread.
mixing powders, Duplex type loads, fillers, alloys, buffers, etc. can be discussed.


INTERPRETING THE WRITTEN INFORMATION IS AT THE USERS RISK.
THIS IS NOT A RELOADING OR INSTRUCTION MANUAL,,, REMEMBER IT IS A DISCUSSION !!!!
NOT AN ARGUEMENT!
ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE RULES!
[PERIOD]

If that's the case and it applies to all of us then check post 192. Frank is trolling and just wants to argue.

Larry Gibson

Larry, Frank fixed his post.
and he explains himself below.

[frnkeore]

Larry,
I'm truly sorry that you are taking it that way. It was not ment to start a arguement at all. What I was doing was pointing out that ES can and will cause larger groups, especially at longer distance (200, 300 or more yds).

While you can get reasonable grouping with ES in the 50 fps range, you will get better grouping with with lower ES, even with the same basic powder charge by trying different primers, raising or lowering the charge by as little as .2 gr and even changing the seating depth by small amounts, as well as duplexing (see below).

Also, it is harder to get lower ES with slower burn rate powders, in smaller cases, because the pressure isn't where the powder manufactor designed those powders to be. You also get incomplete burns until the pressure gets to the upper range.

Duplexing might be one way to over come that. I cleaned up the unburnt powder in a 45/70 using pistol powder to burn 4831 and reducing ES to 10 and SD to 4, with a .60 5 shot grouping @ 100.

Frank

[leftiye]

Rick, it's not you. I have yet to talk to or read about a shooter who got RELIABLE and REPEATABLE improvements from inside neck reaming. I'm sure others will disagree with me, and that's quite OK, but here's what I found when trying both methods:

When you turn the necks (outside turning) with the normal tools supplied for the task (Forster/RCBS/Lyman mini-lathe) or a hand held neck turning tool (I use a K&M neck turner), you are cutting against a mandrel and therefore achieving a controlled and even neck thickness.

An inside neck reamer will attempt to remove high spots in the inside neck area, but since there is nothing pushing against it on the outside (no outside "mandrel"), it will remove metal without at the same time controlling thickness.

I have never had any luck with inside reaming; while outside neck turning -when needed- usually helps my groups.

Agree. The only way you could inside turn [the tools extant do not inside turn, they ream] accurately would be in a lathe type tool where the outside of the neck was say forced into a jig/tool with a chamber in a chuck and then single point the inside. Also, this would eliminate the shoulder sometimes created at the inside of the case at the case's shoulder by outside neck turning.

[btroj]

Yes, lower ES is good for longer range shooting. I'm pretty sure it is quite important to the BPCR guys. For 100 yard shooting it may not matter much but as you reach out farther and farther it grows in importance, unless you like vertical stringing.

I don't plan on shooting much past 100 so I don't really care too much about ES but I still look at it anyway. A low ES isn't always a sign of a good shooting load but I find that high ones generally indicate a poor shooting load. That is MY experience, others may have other experiences.


Inside neck reamers follow the existing hole. They may clean up tight spots but they do not uniform the neck thickness. We want uniform neck thickness so outside turning is the way to go.

[runfiverun]

if you push all the uneven-ness to the outside.
I have seen some brass that was shaped similar to a barrels bore and groove relationship.

[cbrick]

A low ES isn't always a sign of a good shooting load but I find that high ones generally indicate a poor shooting load. That is MY experience, others may have other experiences.

Your experience mirrors an article by Dr. Ken Oehler, that's been my experience also. I think I have that article, I'll look and post it if I find it. It makes understanding S.D. & A.V a bit easier.

Rick

[Doc Highwall]

As I have said here before, a low extreme spread does not take into consideration barrel vibrations, but they will show up on the target. I have even shot 10 shot groups showing two distinctive groups right next to one another. The shooter has to keep records of what the velocity was, and see of this happens again with another load at the same velocity showing that this is a velocity range to avoid if they want a good load.

Even a barrel that has been stressed relieved and measures good with a air gage might not be homogeneous throughout it's entire length, giving bad vibrations with velocity and pressure/time curve adding to dispersion of the shots.


The target is the only true proof the load worked at least once, and multiple groups over time prove the load.

[geargnasher]

+1, Doc. If your load is dancing right around a bad spot in muzzle position upon exit, the ballistics can be excellent but slight variations can throw the hits around on target. Often just a very slight change to powder weight will bring things together without really affecting the internal or external ballistics that much, just where the muzzle is pointed upon exit. Sudden vertical stringing during a load workup can indicate the bullet is exiting right around the peak or valley of longitudinal muzzle whip. There's also that radial vibration thing, the one that makes the muzzle diameter change slightly at certain predictable points, about four cycles while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Gear

[dtknowles]

+1, Doc. If your load is dancing right around a bad spot in muzzle position upon exit, the ballistics can be excellent but slight variations can throw the hits around on target. Often just a very slight change to powder weight will bring things together without really affecting the internal or external ballistics that much, just where the muzzle is pointed upon exit. Sudden vertical stringing during a load workup can indicate the bullet is exiting right around the peak or valley of longitudinal muzzle whip. There's also that radial vibration thing, the one that makes the muzzle diameter change slightly at certain predictable points, about four cycles while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Gear

Gear

Do you have any links to research on Harmonics, whip, modes, ect. for barrels. I have read some stuff but no real research or testing.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Here's one, Tim.

http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm

Read the several pages linked on the sidebar related to barrel harmonics, tuning, movie, etc. There is an article somewhere, perhaps there, about using Quickload and a little calculating to predict exact muzzle exit timing and how to get that to coincide with the radial harmonic. Get the bullet to exit when the two directions of vibration are sync'ed at the ideal point, and you're golden. It's jacketed data, but it's the same idea for cast.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Here's another one, couldn't remember the man's name earlier but Google turned it up. Chris Long is his name, and he talks about the "traveling wave theory", or radial harmonic.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/barrel.htm

Gear

[frnkeore]

This is the best one that I have found on barrel vibration. this site also has the best info on BC, twist rates, too.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/barrel_vibrations.htm

Frank

[dtknowles]

Here's one, Tim.

http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm

Read the several pages linked on the sidebar related to barrel harmonics, tuning, movie, etc. There is an article somewhere, perhaps there, about using Quickload and a little calculating to predict exact muzzle exit timing and how to get that to coincide with the radial harmonic. Get the bullet to exit when the two directions of vibration are sync'ed at the ideal point, and you're golden. It's jacketed data, but it's the same idea for cast.

Gear

Thanks, I will search more for myself and if I find something good, share it. The FEM's show that which I already understood. His tuner testing kind of left me puzzled. It just goes to show that there might be more than one school of thought about what finding the node means.

Tim

[tomme boy]

Here is a little test I have done before, but wanted everyone to see. Like someone said "it only matters if it matters!"

The first target is shot with mixed headstamp brass. What I did was FL size, trim and chamfer inside and out of the neck. Then powder was thrown straight from the powder dispenser and the bullet seated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0389_zpsdc473c18.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0389_zpsdc473c18.jpg.html)

This was then shot right afterwards with out waiting. This brass is all Remington brass from the same lot, once fired. I FL sized this with the expander removed. I then go back and size with a Lee Neck sizer. The necks are chamfered in and out. The primer holes are cleaned and reamed. The inside primer hole has the hole reamed to remove any burrs. Powder is dropped straight from the hopper and the bullet is seated half way. After all are loaded I come back and finish seating the bullet to the length for my throat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0390_zps8aade34e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0390_zps8aade34e.jpg.html)

The group would have been a little better except for that one to the right. The bipod slipped a little as I was pulling the trigger. All were shot off a bipod and a monopod. The gun is a Savage Axis heavy barrel in a Boyds stock. The gun is unbedded and nothing has been done to it. The scope is a 4x20x44.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0392_zpsb6eceb64.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0392_zpsb6eceb64.jpg.html)

[tomme boy]

Oh ya. The bullets are Midsouth Shooters Dogtown 55gr HP. Hardly a match bullet by any means. I know it is a jacketed load, but it shows that some of what we have talked about works.

[cbrick]

Neither a low standard deviation or a low extreme spread are the final word on anything, of course the target is. The S.D. and E.V. are one of many tools and to me well worth paying attention to. A good group combined with good chrono reading makes me far more likely to pursue that load as opposed to one with poor chrono numbers.

I don't buy into these numbers only apply to longer ranges and mean less at only 100 yards. I think what your looking at is simply that it's easier to see the difference at longer ranges, doesn't mean they don't apply at shorter range. Same idea when working up long range revolver loads, very difficult to have an idea of a loads potential at 20 or 25 yards, very easy to see what the load it worth at 150 or 200 yards.

Rick

[45 2.1]

What you need to do is list things you think matter, then discuss the merits of each. Several things do matter, but which are important.

[45 2.1]

I don't buy into these numbers only apply to longer ranges and mean less at only 100 yards. I think what your looking at is simply that it's easier to see the difference at longer ranges, doesn't mean they don't apply at shorter range. Rick

It is very easy to have a very tight grouping load at 100 yards that falls completely apart and strings horribly at 300 yards. SD and ES help identify some of those problems.

[nanuk]

I have read some interesting articles discussing reaming/turning of necks

outside turning of a neck leaves it as much off center as when you started, requiring a full length resize, then possible re-turning

inside reaming with a lathe style tool allows the neck to move around

in one article, a respected (by some?) wildcatter recommends inside reaming, with the RCBS style, fully supporting reamers.

this makes the most sense, but has the highest cost.

[frnkeore]

In my sport, we do 95% of our shooting at 200 yards with CF and 95% at 100 yards RF.

I used to do all my experimenting and testing at 100 yards, mostly for my convenience until I got caught out with it after finding a very good 100 yard load that totally fell apart at 200 yards. (.8 - 3.25). Since then, I've done ALL CF at 200. I've not found a load that grouped well at 200 to fall apart at 100 yards.

Frank

[geargnasher]

What you need to do is list things you think matter, then discuss the merits of each. Several things do matter, but which are important.

I suspect you're in a better position to start such a list than most of us, give it a go?

Gear

[Love Life]

No need to make a list. I'm seeing techniques listed here and in the other threads that I really thought were common knowledge in precision shooting and load development.

Start with a "standard" and then change one variable at a time and prove what is worthwhile and what isn't.

Also, don't neglect trigger time and control.

I'm hitting 2,400 FPS in the 308 just fine with cast using the same techniques I've always used. I just let the targets tell me what needed tweaking at times.

We can cover barrel harmonics and the "nodes". I suggest a 300 yd ladder test (not load ladder) followed by a 400 yd ladder test...or you can do an OCW test...or you can chrono and play with numbers...or any number of things.

You can outside neck turn which is something I do find beneficial but not the end all be all.

You can uniform primer pockets, work flash holes, anneal, weigh empty cases and then weigh plugged/filled cases. Pick your poison.

You can play with primers...after playing with powder charges...after playing with seating depth...after weight sorting and ogive sorting...or any combo you choose.

Every little bit...every little bit.

I said months ago that shooting cast is not rocket science. I was right. If I can do it, then anybody can...on their own for the most part.

The minutia is important, but don't get lost in it. Also, my cast boolits like to jump. Imagine that.

Oh, and the tips I gleaned from Mr. Gibson and Cbrick on making the best boolits I can was one of the most important factors.

[Doc Highwall]

Here is a good article on barrel vibrations, it is from the RSI web page and their pressure trace tracks the optimum barrel exit.
http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

[dtknowles]

Here is a good article on barrel vibrations, it is from the RSI web page and their pressure trace tracks the optimum barrel exit.
http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

Just what I needed another theory;

Tim

[Love Life]

The easiest way to prove a theory to yourself is to test it.

[dtknowles]

The easiest way to prove a theory to yourself is to test it.

I have not the tools. I have a chronograph, a fairly accurate rifle and a 100 yard range. I have a hard enough time telling if my groups change size because of ammo changes, the wind or my shooting technique.

Tim

[Love Life]

That's a bummer.

[cbrick]

I have not the tools. I have a chronograph, a fairly accurate rifle and a 100 yard range. I have a hard enough time telling if my groups change size because of ammo changes, the wind or my shooting technique. Tim

Yep, that's a problem for me also. I've got the chrono, a rifle (while not a bench gun) that I would like to see what I could do with it but I have access to a 100 yard range. Sure will put a crimp on the long range testing but I'll do what I can at 100.

Rick

[RED333]

Yep, that's a problem for me also. I've got the chrono, a rifle (while not a bench gun) that I would like to see what I could do with it but I have access to a 100 yard range. Sure will put a crimp on the long range testing but I'll do what I can at 100.

Rick

This is me, but I do not have the chronograph just yet.
Besides, all we have is time, right?
Time to go back and read and reread, pick out the good parts and hope we dont miss the good parts.
Guys, thanks for the info and kick in the pants.LOL

[btroj]

I can shoot to 300 any day I want, to 600 as long as no matches are going on.

All that and I only care to shoot to 100. No real reason, I just don't have an interest.

[Love Life]

If you decide to sell your rifle, I'd like to make an offer on it.

[btroj]

Why would I sell the rifle? It shoots well at 100 yards, exactly what I wanted it for. Longer distances were never on my radar.

[geargnasher]

The easiest way to prove a theory to yourself is to test it.

That's true. Since the topic of theory has come up, something else I thought I'd throw out there is what I don't discuss. If I'm not talking about it, I either don't know about it, or have determined it's irrelevant for my purposes. Understanding a little bit about barrel harmonics and what to look for on your targets to see if it's affecting groups IS very important when you start splitting hairs. That's why I brought it up. Not too many people realize the importance of the travelling wave. You can actually see it happening with variances in the antimony wash just inside the muzzle. Ever get that wash and notice bare metal from the crown back inside for 1/4 to 3/4"? I have. I also noticed that the next half-grain step of powder increase brought it to the crown and the groups shrunk way down. Hmm. Another half-grain, no good, notice the wash way back inside the muzzle. Next range outing, duplicate the good load and it still works. Do things like that a few times and you start to realize that SOME of this armchair jawjacking about theory this or theory that might actually be useful in practice.
A lot of it is just entertainment, though. Must separate the wheat from the chaff for oneself.

Gear

[Love Life]

Barrel harmonics are not a new phenomenon.

[45 2.1]

I suspect you're in a better position to start such a list than most of us, give it a go? Gear


No need to make a list. I'm seeing techniques listed here and in the other threads that I really thought were common knowledge in precision shooting and load development.

I've taught several people to do much better than they were doing. The problem is most all people consider different things important..........whether they are or not. All of them had several things wrong with what they did... and they weren't the same things each time either. What you need to learn is the basics of HOW things work and WHY they work. Without that you're going to be a parts changer mechanic reloader.

One thing you need to know is this......... You can get normal, well put together production rifles to shoot under 1.5 MOA at 2,400 fps without the benchrest techniques. Basically we are talking about calibers 24 thru 338 here (22 calibers are a separate topic) that have the potential to reach that 2,400 fps or more. Whatever your barrel length, remember at these parameters you get about 35 fps increase for each inch of barrel increase or decrease. Someone shooting a 16 inch barrel at 2,300 fps would get about 2,650 fps shooting out of a 26 inch barrel with the SAME load. Factor that into what you're hearing when you read posts here. You will have to work for it and it won't be easy, but you can do it. This is with molds and the normal things you can get now. All you need to do is separate the BS from what does matter. A list will help determine that for a lot of people here.

[tomme boy]

Could you !please! there I said it! put a list together? There has been a lot of info together in this thread. It would help if you put together what has worked for you.

[45 2.1]

Could you !please! there I said it! put a list together? There has been a lot of info together in this thread. It would help if you put together what has worked for you.

That would leave a lot of people with questions... why this or that wasn't said or talked about. I've done this before and got VERY LITTLE response with a short cut to the point post very few people learned anything from. This way we talk about what you guys think is important and either: discuss or expand it, negate it or place the topic where it belongs in the scheme of things (basically tell how much it matters where).

[ShooterAZ]

Here's my short list. For M700 stock 24" bbl, 10 twist, 30-06.

1) Powder selection. In my Lyman cast boolit manuals I see very little or no use of typical "medium slow" rifle powders listed. I'm referring to Varget, 4064, 4895 and the like. I do see a lot of 5744 and SR4759 data. I have been able to achieve 2000+/- with these "cast boolit" powders with decent accuracy. Will I need to delve into the more typical "jacketed" rifle powders to get to get higher velocity with cast?

2) Mold choices for high velocity. What do you consider to be among the top three mold choices for high velocity in 30 cal?

3) Rifle/Barrels. I see many users rechambering to custom barrels with 1/12 or 1/14 twist. How important is it to get to high(er) velocity?
Of course I do understand it will depend on what type of usage one wants. My usage is casual target shooting...but with a high degree of accuracy with velocity beyond 2000fps.

[runfiverun]

AZ.
I use slow for caliber powders, they fill the case and I'm looking for a slow launch backed up by gas volume to keep things moving.
I also try to get them to come up to pressure after the boolit is firmly in the barrel.

2. my favorite right now is the accurate 30-165A it has enough slopes and angles to it to match my rifles throat pretty darn well, it is supported and centered, but has a slight amount of run-up to the barrel to help it self center when it gets there.

3. your chamber has to be cut on the centerline of the barrels bore and that bore needs to be concentric and straight..
the custom rifle thing is more to get that, than to gain an advantage in twist rate.
in my case I went with a good barrel and no fancy tricks to the rest of the rifle, it has a good straight hole in it and is what I had on hand.
the trigger is as issued my the fuhrer, lightly stoned to clean it up and take out stage one.
the stock is either an old fajen or a bishop from some time in the past [50's?]
will it shoot any better or faster than my 30" barreled AR-30 in 308?
surely faster [maybe] it does have more case capacity to work with, but the shorter barrel will slow things down some.



throughout all this we haven't even mentioned the plastic state of alloy's or us even coming close to exceeding our alloy's strengths.
that's something anyone reading this thread should ponder over for a little while.

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks guys. popper, I have been playing with the BO also...1/7 BFI upper. I am getting 1900fps+ with cast in that one with superb accuracy. Apparently I must be doing a good job of making my boolits.

[geargnasher]

.....throughout all this we haven't even mentioned the plastic state of alloy's or us even coming close to exceeding our alloy's strengths.
that's something anyone reading this thread should ponder over for a little while.

Underscore, highlight.

Gear

[tomme boy]

Run, you are going to make me buy that mold again aren't you!

[cbrick]

throughout all this we haven't even mentioned the plastic state of alloy's or us even coming close to exceeding our alloy's strengths. that's something anyone reading this thread should ponder over for a little while.

I know what Brad is using but is everyone else using? I have a good supply of segregated CWW and SWW, a good supply of bar Sn and enough Super Hard to mix a wide range of alloys but what do I want to blend? What is and what is not working well with HV.

As a side note: Powder Valley just listed some Viht powders and I grabbed some N-140 I've wanted to try and am about to order the NOE XCB mold while it's still listed as available. 165 gr is a lighter bullet than I normally use in 30 cal so that will be new for me also.

Rick

[ShooterAZ]

I have been using #2 alloy for my rifle target loads so far. Expensive, yes, but I can afford it and I like the way it casts. I just ordered some linotype from Roto, and will be experimenting with it soon...hopefully this weekend.

[Love Life]

I use Rotometals #2 or Linotype. I experiment with Copper enriched and it was alright.

[detox]

As a side note: Powder Valley just listed some Viht powders and I grabbed some N-140 I've wanted to try and am about to order the NOE XCB mold while it's still listed as available. 165 gr is a lighter bullet than I normally use in 30 cal so that will be new for me also.

Rick

Rick, I hope the 140 works out for you. I use Linotype alloy, bullets sized nose first, hand dipped in thinned alox, wolf LR primers. Remington 700VS 308 with long .150 NATO free bore

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/DSCF8108_zpsf2810459.jpg.html)

[detox]

I bet this NEW bullet would shoot good in my Remington 308. Fit to free bore and load it long so that it will jam into rifling when chambered.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee395/aviserated1/N_O_E__Bullet_Moulds_310_164Gr__FN_164_gr_Sketch_z ps42e39db5.jpg (http://s1225.photobucket.com/user/aviserated1/media/N_O_E__Bullet_Moulds_310_164Gr__FN_164_gr_Sketch_z ps42e39db5.jpg.html)

[cbrick]

What you need to do is list things you think matter, then discuss the merits of each. Several things do matter, but which are important.

I've given the list idea a great deal of thought and agree it's a great idea and could/would help tremendously in stopping going back and forth from topic to topic with nothing settled on any of them. I even jotted down a few ideas to get started.


One thing you need to know is this......... You can get normal, well put together production rifles to shoot under 1.5 MOA at 2,400 fps without the benchrest techniques.

And then I read this. Stopped me cold, that was everything I had on the list so far. If the bench rest techniques are an aid but what we re looking for can be done without them . . . Well, gnawed on that for awhile and came to the conclusion that I am not qualified to make such a list.

But I'll try to get one started, here is an unqualified list to get started:

Seems that a high quality concentric bullet launched with the center line of the bullet as perfectly matched to the center line of the bore as possible is needed. Perfect bases with perfectly square, flat GC's. (bench rest techniques) Emphasis on concentric, i.e. sizing correctly, to me that's a push through die and not an in & out die.

Alloy? Don't know, waiting to hear what others that have shot HV cast has to say. My old standby has served me well. CWW+ 2% Sn air cooled right at 12 BHN for almost everything including rifle to 2,000 fps. Same alloy HT'd to 18 BHN for long range revolver. In HV, Sn in the alloy, good, bad, indifferent? Sb percentages, what would work better? Seems that somewhere bullet strength is going to come into play. Is it better with HV to HT to a desired BHN or cast an alloy at that strength/hardness.

Throat, in revolver many consider an 11 degree forcing cone an accuracy advantage. What type of throat in a rifle? What length of throating?

Rifling type? There are several different types of rifling, some narrow with shallow grooves, some wider with deeper grooves. Which for HV cast?

As slow of a powder that will permit the desired velocity. Which powder matched with what bullet weight? this has been my approach to cast accuracy in the past but I've not tried to push the limit on velocity. So what about powders with HV?

Ok, that's a start. Please feel free to add to or subtract from the above.

Rick

[ShooterAZ]

I posted this before, but didn't get any opinions. NOE 311407 http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=82 I now have this mold...so I'm gonna try to drive it hard with lino.

[detox]

I posted this before, but didn't get any opinions. NOE 311407 http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=82 I now have this mold...so I'm gonna try to drive it hard with lino.

I am sure it will shoot good if you fit it correctly. What type of rifle will you shoot it in? Have you measured free bore diameter?