high velocity with cast.

[dtknowles]

I have had people try and tell me how to catch fish, I was never sure whether they just did not know how to fish the pond or if they were deliberately advocating poor techniques so I would not catch any fish. I ignored their advice and caught my limit. You can try to teach a man to fish but he might not listen if your creel is empty.

Tim

[btroj]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/IMG_0502_zps9a4c2352.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/IMG_0502_zps9a4c2352.jpg.html)

[geargnasher]

Yes, Brad, just wait until it dawns on you to apply some of what you've learned to the .38 Special. Then you will wonder what the heck you thought you were doing before.

Bjorn, here's a learning exercise. Describe, in tenths of an inch, what forces the bullet experiences in the first half inch of movement, starting with what makes it move. In order to make such a description, you will have to think and visualize what is going on in there. Once you do that, you can start to see what things can go wrong (path of least resistance), and what things you can manipulate to right them. Later, we'll do the second half-inch, and then halfway down the barrel, muzzle exit, and so on.

Gear

[dtknowles]

My Uncle had this record Rainbow Trout mounted and hanging on the wall with some sort of certificate that stated where and when it was caught. Years after my Uncle died my brother told me that my Uncle confessed to him it was a lie and the fish was caught in a different pond but he did not want people fishing "his" pond but he still wanted to be in the record books so he changed where he reported where he caught the fish.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Yes, Brad, just wait until it dawns on you to apply some of what you've learned to the .38 Special. Then you will wonder what the heck you thought you were doing before.

Bjorn, here's a learning exercise. Describe, in tenths of an inch, what forces the bullet experiences in the first half inch of movement, starting with what makes it move. In order to make such a description, you will have to think and visualize what is going on in there. Once you do that, you can start to see what things can go wrong (path of least resistance), and what things you can manipulate to right them. Later, we'll do the second half-inch, and then halfway down the barrel, muzzle exit, and so on.

Gear

I know I have gone thru this thought exercise and I imagine Bjorn and most others who have been following this thread have done so as well. That is why we are having these alloy, bullet fit, barrel twist, pound cast, neck tension, powder choice discussions.

Tim

[geargnasher]

I imagine very much that they haven't. Actually, I don't need to imagine, their comments and alloy choices demonstrate that they haven't. I know, I used to think the same way, or rather NOT think, just assemble components according to recipes and wonder why I couldn't get past 1800 fps with anything resembling accuracy.

We are having this alloy/fit/powder discussion because Lamar, Brad, and I started beating everyone over the head with it about two pages ago, not because anyone else thought it was important enough to bring up. It made some people who wanted to discuss the relatively unimportant stuff angry and they left, but they weren't in a place just yet to learn a whole lot anyway.

Gear

[btroj]

Sorta.

Working up a test protocol for alloys, where you can be reasonably sure that diminishing accuracy is caused by alloy and not by other components or loading processes, is where the problems lay IMO. I figure I'll establish a "HV baseline" at a given MV, and then try pushing the various alloys faster, loading each batch identically and see where accuracy goes south.

Look at what Bjorn said. Establish a baseline at a given MV then see what happens when the alloy is pushed faster to see where accuracy goes south.

What will this tell us? Not much more than how that alloy handles that pressure curve for that bullet in that rifle.

The alloy can be manipulated for hardness and it does matter. Rick proved that in his 357 as discussed earlier. What he didn't look into, however, is how does the "ideal" hardness of the alloy change as the pressure curve rises faster, slower, or to a higher peak?

Looking at a single velocity for instance the manner in which we arrive at the velocity also matters. Say we get 2400 fps, how did we get there? 4895 will do it but so will 4350 and 860. Think those powders don't place vastly different demands on the alloy? Is a linotype 24 BHn bullet gonna act the same as a heat treated range scrap 24 BHn bullet?

We need to test multiple permutations of alloy composition, BHn, powder type and charge, and see how they interact.

Think about what Bob said a few pages back about a bullet either off the lands or in the lands getting hit with a hammer. Now think about using a variety of hammers too. Now change the bullet and try each hammer.

[45 2.1]

Rationalizing your point of view can lead to conclusions that just ain't so. Whether you do so or not depends on how much you actually know about what happens........................

[dtknowles]

Several of us have done that. Learn something from it!


It must have been in a different thread as I have not seen anyone post a range report about shooting cast at over 3000 fps except Bjorn. I did post a report in a different thread but the cast bullet was in a nylon sabot so I did not think it was relevant here. 3800+ fps under 2 MOA for 5 shots at 100 yards :-)

Tim

Tim

[dtknowles]

I imagine very much that they haven't. Actually, I don't need to imagine, their comments and alloy choices demonstrate that they haven't. I know, I used to think the same way, or rather NOT think, just assemble components according to recipes and wonder why I couldn't get past 1800 fps with anything resembling accuracy.

We are having this alloy/fit/powder discussion because Lamar, Brad, and I started beating everyone over the head with it about two pages ago, not because anyone else thought it was important enough to bring up. It made some people who wanted to discuss the relatively unimportant stuff angry and they left, but they weren't in a place just yet to learn a whole lot anyway.

Gear

These discussion did not start with this thread, they have been discussed in other threads on this forum before this one.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Or, perhaps, it didn't happen on the internet at all. Most of the people who do this don't haunt internet boards.

Gear

[btroj]

That's ok. As Brad no doubt has figured out, actually shooting and seeing what your loads and rifle does at speeds close to 3K is worth a hundred language lessons and thousands of Cast Boolits posts.

This is the comment Bob was speaking of. Nowhere does it say at 3K fps, it says close to. He was referring to my shooting and I haven't gone past 2750 fps. yet. I don't know the exact pressure i was getting but I bet it was in the 50K PSI realm, not shabby for a range scrap type alloy.

I did this with a bullet FAR softer than linotype and did it with a far faster burning powder too. I learned a ton about that alloy in doing so and the big thing it taught me is that a low tin, moderate antimony alloy can handle a whole lot more pressure than people give it credit for. We need to get out of the 70's era thinking from the Lyman manuals that gave us garbage like cast not shooting well in microgroove barrels. It is very feasible to heat treat a "lesser" alloy and make it perform very well in high pressure, high velocity enviorns.

[dtknowles]

Sorta.

Working up a test protocol for alloys, where you can be reasonably sure that diminishing accuracy is caused by alloy and not by other components or loading processes, is where the problems lay IMO. I figure I'll establish a "HV baseline" at a given MV, and then try pushing the various alloys faster, loading each batch identically and see where accuracy goes south.

Look at what Bjorn said. Establish a baseline at a given MV then see what happens when the alloy is pushed faster to see where accuracy goes south.

What will this tell us? Not much more than how that alloy handles that pressure curve for that bullet in that rifle.

The alloy can be manipulated for hardness and it does matter. Rick proved that in his 357 as discussed earlier. What he didn't look into, however, is how does the "ideal" hardness of the alloy change as the pressure curve rises faster, slower, or to a higher peak?

Looking at a single velocity for instance the manner in which we arrive at the velocity also matters. Say we get 2400 fps, how did we get there? 4895 will do it but so will 4350 and 860. Think those powders don't place vastly different demands on the alloy? Is a linotype 24 BHn bullet gonna act the same as a heat treated range scrap 24 BHn bullet?

We need to test multiple permutations of alloy composition, BHn, powder type and charge, and see how they interact.

Think about what Bob said a few pages back about a bullet either off the lands or in the lands getting hit with a hammer. Now think about using a variety of hammers too. Now change the bullet and try each hammer.

Bjorn has described the next phase of his testing. Does it cover the waterfront, not completely but it will provide more data than I have seen from anyone since Larry posted his test data. Bjorn's gun is not set up to provide pressure rise data maybe some one will do that testing some day. I would be interested in seeing actual test data about the effect on pressure for various distances off the lands including various amounts of jam. It would be nice to have that data for various alloys as well. We have so little hard data and so much speculation. Science it is not.

Tim

[45 2.1]

It must have been in a different thread as I have not seen anyone post a range report about shooting cast at over 3000 fps except Bjorn. I did post a report in a different thread but the cast bullet was in a nylon sabot so I did not think it was relevant here. 3800+ fps under 2 MOA for 5 shots at 100 yards :-) Tim

You've read that cast can be shot at high velocity many different ways. Somewhere along the way you, and others, seemed to have tried to pigeon hole everyone into just one way. Several people have posted about it on this site using several different ways to accomplish that. Most people here are older and don't need a You tube write-up to understand what was said..... words and articulate speech are very useful in doing things like this.


These discussion did not start with this thread, they have been discussed in other threads on this forum before this one. Tim

What difference does that make? It certainly applies to HV and is what the old timers were trying to tell you for about the last 140 years.

[45 2.1]

It is very feasible to heat treat a "lesser" alloy and make it perform very well in high pressure, high velocity enviorns.

You've learned a valuable lesson........... now, how about that powder.

[btroj]

Alloynisnt going to alter the pressure rise, it is how the pressure rise affects the alloy. Having a pressure trace for various alloys won't tell us what we need to know. We need a high speed camera if anything to see how the bullet is changed on it's trip thru the throat and bore.I also don't know that jam amount is having a significant impact on pressure. That into is certainly not relevant to me as I don't intend to jam anything into the throat or lands. Pressure trace equipmet would let us better calculate a max load but wouldn't provide much else in my opinion. I have some hard data in my rifle at HV so I feel I can draw some conclusions and speculate based on that data. What matters at this point is what you are looking to find. Do you want to see what is possible or try to prove what isn't?

[btroj]

You've learned a valuable lesson........... now, how about that powder.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm working on it.

I still ill want to try some others first to get a better handle on how things change with powder change. Never hurts to get a better view of the world, does it?

[dtknowles]

That's ok. As Brad no doubt has figured out, actually shooting and seeing what your loads and rifle does at speeds close to 3K is worth a hundred language lessons and thousands of Cast Boolits posts.

This is the comment Bob was speaking of. Nowhere does it say at 3K fps, it says close to. He was referring to my shooting and I haven't gone past 2750 fps. yet. I don't know the exact pressure i was getting but I bet it was in the 50K PSI realm, not shabby for a range scrap type alloy.

I did this with a bullet FAR softer than linotype and did it with a far faster burning powder too. I learned a ton about that alloy in doing so and the big thing it taught me is that a low tin, moderate antimony alloy can handle a whole lot more pressure than people give it credit for. We need to get out of the 70's era thinking from the Lyman manuals that gave us garbage like cast not shooting well in microgroove barrels. It is very feasible to heat treat a "lesser" alloy and make it perform very well in high pressure, high velocity enviorns.

Since when is 2750 close to 3000, that is only 91 percent. I agree with you that heat treated lesser alloys can be made to perform better than most have expected. I have some bullets ageing that while I don't consider them of a lesser alloy, they were water dropped, they are a mix of range scrap and Lino. Will they shoot better than Lino. I hope to prove the advocates for that type of alloy right, I have no love for Lino except for a source of Antimony. I have some copper bearing alloy that I will test again, my earlier testing with it was of little value because I had no baseline for comparison.

Tim

[btroj]

Will they shoot better than Lino?
With what powder, in what bullet mould, and at what BHn? Far more variables to consider other than just alloy. Not just powder but also what peak pressure?

As for 2750 not being close to 3000, I tend to agree. I was only drawing a logical conclusion to the comment by Bjorn.

I agree with him that seeing is believing. I came, I shot, I saw. That changed my mind forever. Trust me, no linotype bullets are gonna go down my barrel.

[dtknowles]

Alloynisnt going to alter the pressure rise, it is how the pressure rise affects the alloy. Having a pressure trace for various alloys won't tell us what we need to know. We need a high speed camera if anything to see how the bullet is changed on it's trip thru the throat and bore.I also don't know that jam amount is having a significant impact on pressure. That into is certainly not relevant to me as I don't intend to jam anything into the throat or lands. Pressure trace equipmet would let us better calculate a max load but wouldn't provide much else in my opinion. I have some hard data in my rifle at HV so I feel I can draw some conclusions and speculate based on that data. What matters at this point is what you are looking to find. Do you want to see what is possible or try to prove what isn't?

You might be right but how would you defend your statement that "Alloynisnt going to alter the pressure rise" I submit that if a soft bullet rivets in the throat or hard bullet hangs on the lead they provide more resistance to forward motion driving higher pressures and increased burn rate in the early stages of the pressure rise curve. Can I prove that, no, I don't have data, just my experienced engineering judgment, I have guessed wrong before so before I blow it up on the test stand I look to get data.

You said "it is how the pressure rise affects the alloy" you mean how the pressure rise affects the bullet, the alloy does not change, even its mechanical properties (temper) is little affected by pressure rise or work of deformation.

I know for a fact that with a jacketed bullet, bullets loaded to jam produce higher pressures than those set back from the lands. Jam is one condition that I test when I am tuning a load. I have shot some of my smallest groups with bullets loaded long so the reach the lands and are force back into the neck a small amount by using light neck tension. This includes my smallest group shooting XCB bullets. Does this increase peak pressures and pressure rise with cast bullets, I don't know, I have yet to push a cast bullet hard enough for me to see any high pressure indications.

What hard data do you have, hard data is rare.

I am trying to prove what I can do with my rifle. Whatever makes the group smaller or the velocity higher and preferably both at the same time.

What do I know right now? The XCB cast with linotype alloy shoots smaller groups at 2400 fps than my other two bullets cast from a mix of wheel weights and range scrap. XCB bullets sized 0.310 shoot smaller groups than those sized 0.308 or 0.311. My other bullets need to be tested sized 0.310 and need to be tested with other alloys of various tempers.

Tim

[geargnasher]

He has his targets, a clean barrel, brass indicating safe zone, and he knows what he did to make that system give him those results. What other hard data would he need?

Your observation that properties of alloy (if they are altered) affect pressure rise is correct, and a very important point.

edit to comment, I was shooting a "Morse taper fit" type bullet in myh XCB long before the NOE 311-165 came about, or the AM bullet that was it's predecessor. I had hoped that the other folks designing bullets just for the XCB would have learned from my mistake. In that throat, at HV, and with extrudable alloys, you might be better served with a different design which can engrave more easily, more gradually, has places for the metal to go, and maintain a more consistent slip on the rifling once it's fully swaged to fit. Linotype has a 'hard' time with all of these things, no pun intended, and the MTF bullet fit exacerbates the engraving process unless you give the bullet a head start, and that sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Gear

[Bjornb]

Wow, where do I start? For me, and also for several other shooters on this forum who I've spoken with, my basic alloy test will have significant value FOR WHAT WE WANT TO FIND OUT. High Velocity with acceptable accuracy. For me, with the one precision rifle I own, based on the powder capacity of the XCB cartridge and the speed tests I have already run, I would like the rifle to shoot MOA or better at 2900 fps.

The XCB bullet will be the only bullet used, as I have very little experience with the Mihec 30 and don't pretend to know its limitations. The powders that have produced high speeds and good accuracy are H414/WW760 and LeveRevolution, so they will be used. Like Brad says, there is no way to cover all combinations, but who cares? I have already shot so many powder/charge/alloy combinations (I didn't always shoot Lino), that I have seen much of what I wanted to see.

Now I want to see if there are alloys that shoot as well or better than Lino, with the lube, charges and powder(s) that I am most likely to use. I'll share the results, for the perusal of those interested. As for the "bias theory", I have no personal skin in the game except to be a better shooter, so all loads will be treated equally.

Now for you guys who relentlessly keep telling me how I'm doing everything wrong, please reread what runfiverun wrote in the first post on this thread:

"it's NOT about why we CAN'T do it.
it's about what we NEED to do to make it happen, the steps we took to make it happen in our rifles, loads, brass prep, and the expectations we have of our rifles.
what worked and what didn't questions and answers nothing more."

[MBTcustom]

Since it is a discussion about what works, I'll take a moment and tell what works for my clients.
Just delivered a rifle January 21st to a client in 30 XCB.
He has had it to the range twice so far. earlier today he shot this group at 2934FPS. He used an XCB rifle and an XCB bullet as it was designed to fit that chamber. Alloy was standard Lyman #2 casting alloy. Lube was White Label 2500+
129671
So two weeks after he cut the tape on the box, he's nearly breaking 3000FPS with sub 1.5" groups.
This is what works for me.

[dtknowles]

He has his targets, a clean barrel, brass indicating safe zone, and he knows what he did to make that system give him those results. What other hard data would he need?

Gear

He actually has more hard data than you indicated. But what you claim he has for hard data I consider mostly observations. Observations while meaning full are not easily subjected to statistical analysis.

I think he did provide a BHN for his alloy and since it got a substantial part of its hardness due to heat treating we expect that it has superior toughness to Linotype. A valid assumption I expect but the actual toughness and ductility are not measured and so not quantified. He has his targets and probably others and since he posted these then I expect they reflect an improved performance using this alloy vs. others he has tested but that data is not presented. A baseline of what the rifle shoots using carefully developed handloads using match grade jacketed bullets would be helpful as well.

Neck tension and distance off the lands would be helpful too. Again maybe I am the only one who cares about this but I think it has a significant affect on the forces on the bullet. I think it is easier on the bullet if it does not hit the lands with a big head of steam. Can we make bullets that can that beating without too much distortion, maybe but why not give them the easiest start we can.

Tim

There is much room for more hard data and to me and maybe only me but most hard data is represented in the form of numbers

[roadie]

goodsteel,
What's the barrel twist rate?
What's the barrel length?

[geargnasher]

Nobody is telling you you're going it wrong, Bjorn, FOR YOUR SYSTEM. Your alloy is right enough to give you the results you've gotten, FOR YOUR SYSTEM, and it's extremely important to make the distinction between the rifle you're using and, say, the rifle I bought from you, and that the methods to get HV accuracy for the two will be very different. Your system is a heavy bench gun with a super-smooth barrel, very slow rate of twist which doesn't stress the leading edge of the engraves any more than it would in a normal rifle at CBA-record velocities, you're using really slow powders (like some of the rest of us are too, sometimes), and getting the FPS with a really, REALLY long barrel. It's a system that works well with a hard, brittle alloy that resists crooked launches. You also have the ability with that rifle's chamber to easily achieve very tight neck clearances. How does it all work? Well, without any special tricks or knowledge other than sound, meticulous loading practices akin to those one would use with jacketed bullets for best accuracy, it seems to work right well, judging by your many stacks of targets. I certainly think what you're doing is valid, timely, and deserves a place here too, but don't forget that what works in your gun won't work in very many others. Having shot a great deal of Linotype and WD straight WW years ago trying to get more dependable velocity, in deer rifles, that is the voice of MY experience.

However, not all of us are having that discussion, some of us are having other discussions about how to make ordinary rifles shoot extraordinarily. Perhaps a small tweak to the powder and alloys is all you need to really tighten those groups up in your XCB, you're to that point with it because you don't have to deal with some of the disadvantages an off-the-shelf .308 (for example) has. If you were working with an ordinary rifle having huge neck clearance, a rough-cut bore, and steep rifling trying to get HV accuracy, I'd be telling you not to waste your time with Linotype or an MTF bullet, or better yet, to go ahead and try it because you would quickly discover for yourself why I advised against it. Do I make any sense here?

Gear

[leftiye]

I chronoed Linotype at 3316 fps, still in a group of sorts. It has performed well at speeds that I have not seen duplicated. There may be other alloys that will shoot every bit as good, I'm not arguing that. I am (slowly) casting up a stash of bullets (NOE XCB) from approx. 10 different alloys, all certified (even the WWs), to try shooting them side by side. No, the 50/50 won't have 3 months aging, more like 6 weeks, but nothing is perfect. I won't count out any alloy until it has been tested to failure.

Could someone run us through that thing about soft alloys conforming to a barrel that varies in size? I guess I can see it "bumping up" as it transverses a larger portion of the barrel if enough pressure is present, but I can also envision it (as well as harder lead) just flame cutting. This being said, harder (or hardened) lead just traversing a barrel that is uniform is much more mentally comfortable., and it also would engrave better and not deform when unsupported as much. What are the benefits of soft lead?

[leftiye]

"Think of it this way. If you only vary the alloy what are you learning? You are learning how ONE powder curve impacts the alloys chosen." Btroj

Not so, Any powder that produces a slower curve will be sucessful with that alloy. I for one would never step foot on that field of experimentation. I say to always sift out the by roads before starting the journey. Formulate as much principle as you can first, then start guessing. Never undertake to test "everything". I guess I'm lazy. Oh well.

[MBTcustom]

goodsteel,
What's the barrel twist rate?
What's the barrel length?

I apologize,
Twist rate is 1-16, and the barrel length is 30". It's a different method than is being discussed here in this thread, and I don't want to detract from the discussion as it is being layed down, but I am a custom rifle builder and HV cast bullet rifles is my passion. It's the thing that has motivated me since I started building custom rifles.
But, since I am in the business of custom rifles, I need, and my customers demand, a method that cuts right to the chase. Custom rifles are expensive (It costs at least $375 to send a rifle back with a custom barrel) so I must be able to save them at least that much in components which I believe I can (to say nothing of the time involved). Several times in this thread, shooting 1500-2000 rounds has been mentioned here, and when you consider the commitment of powder, primers, brass, and range time, my hat is off to those deep pocketed individuals endeavoring to persevere!

Anyway, I make no bones about it, I took the easy way out. I gathered together all of the things that work well, and work quick, and put them together into a system that delivers results immediately and for a known cost. Several different common alloys have been used and they work well. Several different inexpensive, commercial bullet lubes have been used and work well. Loads must still be worked up, but it can be done in days not months or years, and instead of throwing your money into the berm, you get to hold it in your hands for years.

Again, not to detract from the current discussion, but I want people to know that there is another way if you're not the type that loves to experiment a lot.

Thanks to the OP, and the participants for your patience. Let the quest continue!

[btroj]

But the knowledge gained in that shooting is priceless. That is the real key. Ignoring the value of first hand experience, good observations, and drawing conclusions is the true gem lost by not trying a variety of things.

What happened to this guy?

Everybody starts somewhere, but eventually, this becomes so much more than just getting cheap ammo to make your twist-pipe go bang; it becomes a scientific exercise to find out what the rules are. The barrier of looking for cheap easy shooting is what keeps the secrets secret. Behind that curtain lies a whole world of challenging pursuits that is deep and wide enough to keep even my scattered, OCD ADD mind completely saturated.
The object is simple, but the implementation is very very difficult, and the sort of thing that some call impossible, and a breaking of the accepted limits is considered magic.
Well I've got news for you: Merlin the magician was nothing more than a practical scientist with a brain surrounded by impractical people with swords.
That could be you!

[Bjornb]

Nobody is telling you you're going it wrong, Bjorn, FOR YOUR SYSTEM. Your alloy is right enough to give you the results you've gotten, FOR YOUR SYSTEM, and it's extremely important to make the distinction between the rifle you're using and, say, the rifle I bought from you, and that the methods to get HV accuracy for the two will be very different. Your system is a heavy bench gun with a super-smooth barrel, very slow rate of twist which doesn't stress the leading edge of the engraves any more than it would in a normal rifle at CBA-record velocities, you're using really slow powders (like some of the rest of us are too, sometimes), and getting the FPS with a really, REALLY long barrel. It's a system that works well with a hard, brittle alloy that resists crooked launches. You also have the ability with that rifle's chamber to easily achieve very tight neck clearances. How does it all work? Well, without any special tricks or knowledge other than sound, meticulous loading practices akin to those one would use with jacketed bullets for best accuracy, it seems to work right well, judging by your many stacks of targets. I certainly think what you're doing is valid, timely, and deserves a place here too, but don't forget that what works in your gun won't work in very many others. Having shot a great deal of Linotype and WD straight WW years ago trying to get more dependable velocity, in deer rifles, that is the voice of MY experience.

However, not all of us are having that discussion, some of us are having other discussions about how to make ordinary rifles shoot extraordinarily. Perhaps a small tweak to the powder and alloys is all you need to really tighten those groups up in your XCB, you're to that point with it because you don't have to deal with some of the disadvantages an off-the-shelf .308 (for example) has. If you were working with an ordinary rifle having huge neck clearance, a rough-cut bore, and steep rifling trying to get HV accuracy, I'd be telling you not to waste your time with Linotype or an MTF bullet, or better yet, to go ahead and try it because you would quickly discover for yourself why I advised against it. Do I make any sense here?

Gear

Ian, Lamar did not call this thread "HV with cast in fast twist rifles". It's time to bury the hatchet when it comes to fast vs. slow twist. Especially since nobody wants to resurrect any kind of RPM discussion. Brad's rifle is pretty much functionally identical to mine, except he has a barrel that is ONE twist rate faster (14 vs. 12). Yours and Lamar's also have 12 inch twists.

So while I understand your wish to explain the "fast twist" techniques to all the guys out there that have the more common 30 cal rifles in 1:10 twist, this thread was about HV shooting, and I take that to understand High Velocity regardless of twist. I shoot for the highest possible velocity, and my "stack of targets" is generated to show what is possible to achieve with a rifle like mine. I'm sure that the guys who read this, who are mostly rifle shooters with experience far greater than mine, are not going to confuse Bertha with grandpa's 1903A3.

I have not once tried to criticize your approach to HV shooting (softer alloys, different bullet design, different powders etc.), I have just chosen a different path, one that gives the speed with less concerns about the details needed for the fast twist rifles. Tim just delivered another XCB rifle in 1:16 twist, that immediately shot good groups at just under 3000 FPS. Some people want to do that, and why shouldn't they be able to co-exist in this thread with the faster twist guys?

[btroj]

I don't think twist is a real issue however in all previous discussions it was THE issue. Look at the post by tim, it specifically mentions a twist rate but no load data. What is the message?

I think the knowledge on how to shoot HV with cast is independant of twist rate. It works in all rifles if bullet fit is right.

Bjorn, go back and look at th little quote from a past thread here. Those words were written by tim.

"The barrier of looking for cheap easy shooting is what keeps secrets secret."

That is exactly what I'm trying to eliminate. When I get hammered for having deep pockets that can afford to shoot those 1500 to 2000 rounds people are failing to understand that knowledge NEVER comes cheap. Taking the easy way out isn't what I'm after. I want to learn, not brag.

All I am asking is that people keep an open mind and realize that it is vey possible to shoot HV with cast totally independant of twist rate. There are many ways to accomplish this, it isn't new.

Yes tim, anyone can have you build them a rifle likes larry's and shoot similar loads and get similar results. What did they LEARN from the exercise? Is this an exercise in learning or in trigger pulling?

We all need to decide what is is we are seeking. I am seeking knowledge. I am seeking the ability to understand what happens to the bullet in the throat and bore and how to think abot those affects and how to take advantage of them rather than be held back by them. I seek information that will, ultimately, make me a much better caster and shooter. I seek less the small groups than I do the knowledge of WHY those groups are small.

Bjorn, I have little doubt you are after much of the same information. We just need to understand that we are on very different paths.

[MBTcustom]

But the knowledge gained in that shooting is priceless. That is the real key. Ignoring the value of first hand experience, good observations, and drawing conclusions is the true gem lost by not trying a variety of things.

What happened to this guy?

Everybody starts somewhere, but eventually, this becomes so much more than just getting cheap ammo to make your twist-pipe go bang; it becomes a scientific exercise to find out what the rules are. The barrier of looking for cheap easy shooting is what keeps the secrets secret. Behind that curtain lies a whole world of challenging pursuits that is deep and wide enough to keep even my scattered, OCD ADD mind completely saturated.
The object is simple, but the implementation is very very difficult, and the sort of thing that some call impossible, and a breaking of the accepted limits is considered magic.
Well I've got news for you: Merlin the magician was nothing more than a practical scientist with a brain surrounded by impractical people with swords.
That could be you!

I'm still the same guy who wrote those words Brad. But the science and my personal pursuit led me a different direction. I have experimented without bias many many different methods to get to true HV with accuracy, but I settled on slow twist barrels with properly fitting bullets as the most reliable method of realizing those goals. Using the methods I created at MBT, my clients have shot sub 2MOA groups at 3200 fps with a standard cast bullet lubed with commercially available lubes from White Label. Matchgrade accuracy has been produced by my clients as high as 2900 FPS.
There was a time I wouldn't have believed those claims but there is proof plenty, being reported back to me with pictures, and I can deliver these results on demand, not just in MY rifle, but I can deliver it in YOUR rifle with you behind the stock as well.
That's like magic, but in truth, it's just solid science. Exactly like I said in that post.

Now, that said, Bjorn is right. There is no reason to battle over this. I'm satisfied with the results my method produces, and I'm excited to see if it can be used to shoot sub MOA at 3000fps, but at the same time, I understand that some people like yourself have the wherewithal to see if it can be done with a standard rifle, and I aplaud your efforts! I'm just not able to go that way. I literally don't have time nor money enough to do it (much to my shegrin).
This thread was recently brought to my attention, and I would like to explore the quest for HV in tandem with you fellers. No more crying over spilt milk.
My desire is to have several methods outlined in public that people can use to realize HV with cast lead. Mine may be just one of many, and I hope it is.

It is indeed time to bury the hatchet. Exciting things are happening in the cast bullet world, and there is plenty of room for all of us.

[btroj]

Yes, that method has worked for many. It just isn't the way I work. I'm not interested in cookbook reading, I prefer to create my own recipe and enjoy some good, and some not so good, good along the way.

Would you ever have thought a 96/3/1 type alloy would shoot 2.25 inch groups for 10 shots at 2750 fps in a 12 twist barrel? I didn't think so a few years back but I am sold now. Did you, really? Do you now?

Think of it this way, the envelope is being pushed and it is being done in the open. My knowledge level is growing rapidly even if many of the little gems of knowledge are fed to me via PM or email.

See tim, I am not seeking small groups using someone else's methods. I want to develop my own methods, for me. Following a cookbook works but it isn't very satisfying. I am truly a path less traveled kind of guy.

[MBTcustom]

Good for you Brad!
Like I said, I aplaud your efforts and your success. It's not the direction I went, but like I said, there is plenty to be learned by everyone. Keep on going!

[swheeler]

Since it is a discussion about what works, I'll take a moment and tell what works for my clients.
Just delivered a rifle January 21st to a client in 30 XCB.
He has had it to the range twice so far. earlier today he shot this group at 2934FPS. He used an XCB rifle and an XCB bullet as it was designed to fit that chamber. Alloy was standard Lyman #2 casting alloy. Lube was White Label 2500+
129671
So two weeks after he cut the tape on the box, he's nearly breaking 3000FPS with sub 1.5" groups.
This is what works for me.
Looks like it works for someone else too! 1.1" including the two called fliers at 2930+fps for 10, WOW! Cast at HV is on the cusp of a new dawn, good job and thanks for sharing!

[runfiverun]

wow, just wow.

now we got about 8 guy's here that are pushing cast boolits into the realm of jacketed velocity arguing about it.
the whole point is that it can be done.
the thread is about why is it possible to do so, not who is right.
why does what you do work?
earlier I describe 3 different way's to get what we want, then I described how I got to 2400 fps in my 308 in a basic step by step description.
as I read about the slow twist hard boolit method it really occurs to me that the launch in even that method is basically the same as in the faster twist rifles, only the boolit design has changed and the alloy flow is manipulated by content and launch rate.

I'm shaking my head over the whole DAMN thing.

[MBTcustom]

This thread was brought to my attention via phone call made by SBowers about a week ago. I checked it out, and I'm glad to see the success being had. I decided to post some results that I have seen on my end, since this is a thread about high velocity and what works. I simply said this is what works for me, and I have had a cordial interaction with Brad about what he is doing in his way.
Was this thread started to bring about healing and cooperation for the forum or to divide it? If healing and cooperation is the goal, then I think it's admirable and I support it.

My dream from the beginning has been to have a clearly presented path to success for all forms of HV cast bullet shooting.

Copper enhanced alloys
High RPM with reactive bullets
Slow RPM with custom barrels.
high RPM with breach seated bullets.
paper patched bullets.

I have tried to contribute to these goals with every fiber of my being for the last 5 years, and I have enjoyed success with the last three methods on the list, and I did my best to put tools in the hands of gentlemen who could succeed where I had failed in the previous two.
I still hope to realize this goal.

[btroj]

Lamar is right. We have proven it is quite possible. Some said that all along.

I am finding that lower Sb alloys actually have much more of a place at HV and higher pressure than I ever expected. They just need to be cast in a mould that enhances their properties rather than in a mould where those properties are a negative.

Can both methods work? Obviously they can.

I havent reached a max with my bullets and powder, least not yet. I am truly amazed at how well the bullet I'm using, with this alloy, handles the 50K PSI of the current loads. Never figured that was possible either.


I want to keep using the mould and alloy I'm using as I have literally a ton of range scrap and can get more easily. Economics is, at times, a factor for me. I can be sorta cheap that way and buying lots of foundry alloy just isn't my style. I'm sure many here can relate to that.

[runfiverun]

it was started to get some cooperation from the members here and to bring out the various ways it is being done so that the other members that want to make this step forward can ask questions in which direction to get started.

obviously I would not have a rifle built in this caliber if it were not for Tim's generosity.

many others here have what they have and want to try too.
they can barely afford the 0-6 with a 3x9 scope, have some ww's on hand, but wanna give H/V a go.
we should be able to help them attain that goal.

[roadie]

For me at least, it comes down to what is practical. I'm not interested in paper target shooting, hv with cast has to work for harvesting game cleanly and efficiently. No matter if it's a deer or a lil prairie dog, it has to kill cleanly.

I don't see linotype bullets as being practical for that use, I'd expect fragmentation on impact, cratered wounds, lost critters and suffering. I need predictable results. And no, I'm not looking for a debate on linotype performance vs more standard alloys.

Nor do I see having a 30 inch barrel as being practical for hunting, fine if you setup in a prairie dog town, useless though for packing around. Having a rifle barreled with a special twist isn't practical, given that hv and accuracy can be achieved with "common" barrels. And it's not even the cost of rebarreling, I can do that myself.....it's the principle of the thing. Not to mention that going this route would cut down on my shooting....nothing to "shoot for", as it were.

It's great that some are getting results using these methods, just doesn't work for me. I don't care if someone does it with a hunk of pipe and a chest full of hot air....I want what works for me....yup, it's all about me.

I'm getting that the powder used has a very high effect on the degree of deformation of the bullet as it transitions from the case into the bore, with varying changes in deformation along the way. Controlling that deformation seems to be key in getting accuracy. The extrusion example that Geargnasher spoke of comes to mind.

Are certain powders more suitable for something like, lets say #2 alloy as opposed to 50/50? I'm thinking here of the guy who doesn't have a storehouse of different powders on hand, me being one of them.
Is a buffer a necessity to protect the base?

[geargnasher]

Ian, Lamar did not call this thread "HV with cast in fast twist rifles". It's time to bury the hatchet when it comes to fast vs. slow twist. Especially since nobody wants to resurrect any kind of RPM discussion. Brad's rifle is pretty much functionally identical to mine, except he has a barrel that is ONE twist rate faster (14 vs. 12). Yours and Lamar's also have 12 inch twists.

So while I understand your wish to explain the "fast twist" techniques to all the guys out there that have the more common 30 cal rifles in 1:10 twist, this thread was about HV shooting, and I take that to understand High Velocity regardless of twist. I shoot for the highest possible velocity, and my "stack of targets" is generated to show what is possible to achieve with a rifle like mine. I'm sure that the guys who read this, who are mostly rifle shooters with experience far greater than mine, are not going to confuse Bertha with grandpa's 1903A3.

I have not once tried to criticize your approach to HV shooting (softer alloys, different bullet design, different powders etc.), I have just chosen a different path, one that gives the speed with less concerns about the details needed for the fast twist rifles. Tim just delivered another XCB rifle in 1:16 twist, that immediately shot good groups at just under 3000 FPS. Some people want to do that, and why shouldn't they be able to co-exist in this thread with the faster twist guys?

There is no "hatchet". You wanted to know why you thought you, in particular, were being told that your alloy was wrong for what you're doing. I explained that, and I'm not telling you that you're using the wrong alloy. I mentioned to others, with different systems, that it's probably not going to work very well, and WHY there are other alloys that will do better in other systems.

Match the hatch. You have to know what goes with what and why it does. Lino doesn't like steep twists and rough barrels, which are the norm among rifle shooters. Lino can tolerate that at lower velocities, but not much above what most cast shooters are used to. Low-antimony, minimal tin alloys I know for a fact do better at pretty much any velocity in my "normal" rifles than any other alloy. I assume that information will translate to others. I also know that such an alloy has limits and needs to be improved to go past a certain point....either you have to change the system (gun barrel and chamber, mould design, alloy) or you have to find a way to improve the components to work in the system you have, improve meaning ID the failure points and improve them...in the case of alloy it may need copper additions or a paper jacket. My challenge has been to figure out how far one can go by changing everything but the gun, that's the challenge I chose, and it's just one way. I also have a better "system" in the XCB should I need it.

The other part of this is how you fit and launch that alloy. It all works together, whether your system makes you aware of it at HV or not, and that's been a huge sticking point for me. Powder choice is critical, but cannot be pre-determined. Just because you have an out of the box system that will deliver great accuracy at 3K fps at 100 yards doesn't mean it will be fully optimized, YOU have to make it work, and how well you do is relative to how much you understand about the system, how it works, how it fails, what to correct when it fails. You need the same knowledge base to shoot cast well at HV out of regular old rifles, too, you just need it a lot more to get decent HV results than you do with a system designed to hot rod with relative ease.

Gear

[leftiye]

For me at least, it comes down to what is practical. I'm not interested in paper target shooting, hv with cast has to work for harvesting game cleanly and efficiently. No matter if it's a deer or a lil prairie dog, it has to kill cleanly.

I don't see linotype bullets as being practical for that use, I'd expect fragmentation on impact, cratered wounds, lost critters and suffering. I need predictable results. And no, I'm not looking for a debate on linotype performance vs more standard alloys.

Nor do I see having a 30 inch barrel as being practical for hunting, fine if you setup in a prairie dog town, useless though for packing around. Having a rifle barreled with a special twist isn't practical, given that hv and accuracy can be achieved with "common" barrels. And it's not even the cost of rebarreling, I can do that myself.....it's the principle of the thing. Not to mention that going this route would cut down on my shooting....nothing to "shoot for", as it were.

It's great that some are getting results using these methods, just doesn't work for me. I don't care if someone does it with a hunk of pipe and a chest full of hot air....I want what works for me....yup, it's all about me.

I'm getting that the powder used has a very high effect on the degree of deformation of the bullet as it transitions from the case into the bore, with varying changes in deformation along the way. Controlling that deformation seems to be key in getting accuracy. The extrusion example that Geargnasher spoke of comes to mind.

Are certain powders more suitable for something like, lets say #2 alloy as opposed to 50/50? I'm thinking here of the guy who doesn't have a storehouse of different powders on hand, me being one of them.
Is a buffer a necessity to protect the base?

Not to whiz on anybody's parade (And not flaming Roadie at all), but in the realm of reality shall we say, there is very limited need or even place for HV cast in game getting or anything else but paper shooting. Lead boolits proceed from doing vast damage to game to grenading as the velocity rises. Before he left .357 Max posted about the damage that his 7mm/.223 did to a deer. As the bore size increases, velocity becomes a problem at slower and slower velocities. I know this is OT, but my point is that I for one am not going to shoot truly HV because it has no value to me (even if I do load everything up like I was a teenager, I do it to calibers that have a use loaded so). It is intriguing, but it is not a primary issue.

[MBTcustom]

Rodie, your explanation makes perfect sense, and is perfectly logical.
Rebarreling to a slower twist rate is the easiest, cheapest way to jump to HV accuracy with cast bullets for me. I say this based on the fact that my time is limited, I don't mind toting a 30" barrel for any hunting situation that might require speeds like we are talking about, and I just can't dump money into powder selection and range time without any assurance it will pay off for me someday. That's my situation.

As such, putting up a set cost of $375 is much more attractive. This way I can buy two powders, one bullet mold, invest in one alloy, and spend two or three range sessions figuring out how to make it talk at HV. Then I can go hunting when I get the chance.
This is not everyone's situation. Some might be alloy rich, and have the mind to understand alloy, lube, and how to read the shotgun patterns to decide what to change to make good groups happen. I can't do that. I just don't have the patience for it (again, that's on ME and no one else). Dad always told me "A mans got to know his limitations" and I know mine. If I have to spend $500 and thousands of hours on load development, my ADD kicks in, I lose interest, and I go spend that $500 on jacketed bullets instead (that's still a lot of shooting!).

Now, that said, I know that many here are on the quest for excellence at high RPM, with standard rifles. In other words, save money on the rifle, and spend it on the ammo. I applaud that strategy, and I hope to see some truly stellar groups someday from the good people undertaking this challenge, and I have supported them far more than I ever supported the low RPM crowd (as R5R so graciously mentioned). I want to see it happen! I want to see success at high RPM and I invested a lot of time and money towards that end, so my sincerity should not be questioned.

If the membership does not mind, I would like to participate in this thread to see the success the rifles I built for geargnasher, Btroj, and runfiverun first hand, and if it is acceptable, I would like to post my journey as well, with the understanding that I am certainly NOT doing things the way they have undertaken. I am walking my own path, and I will be shooting cast bullets at high velocity, but low RPM.
I am working hard to remain on the cutting edge of the HV cast bullet quest, and I have not been idle these last two months. I have designed a new wildcat called the 35XCB, and a 22 caliber is in the works as well. I would like to demonstrate these things here as I think this thread is aimed right at the work I am doing.

I'm not here to cause trouble. In fact, I am committed to helping to push the limits. I am perhaps the most educated gunsmith in the country on this subject, and I want to help if I can.
I thought I would ask first out of respect though. I do not want to cause an issue here.
I shoot extremely high velocity with slow twist barrels. Is it acceptable to respectfully discuss such things here or not?

[btroj]

I don't care what rpm you shoot, I'm interested more in group size and velocity. Matter of fact, rpm is the elephant in the room that always causes issues. We could never use those three letters together again on is forum and I would be quite pleased.

Decide what your goals are and how badly you want to attain them. My goal is to get better with this rifle and start working on a similar approach, using knowledge gained from the first rifle, to see what I can get from Dad's Mod 70 in 30-06. Just a plain old deer rifle.

[ShooterAZ]

Some of us hunt with our cast boolits, some are precision target shooters. Some do both. The quest for high velocity is nothing new. I have an off the shelf rifle that happens to be very, very accurate. I'd like to get the best of both worlds, good velocity and good accuracy. There's no reason why I can't. This thread has proved to me that low tin, low antimony alloys can and do work very well at velocities above 2000fps. I did it. I never would have known this. It also showed me that slow burning powders are key as well. They give the boolit a more gentle push initially (as opposed to a smashing blow), therefore less deformation upon engraving the rifling. I can't wait to try my 98/1.5/.5 alloy. A couple more weeks of aging and I will be posting some more targets and results. I have some 3100 powder to try, but much to my dismay I just learned that it has been discontinued and data is no longer published. I will have to extrapolate some data. Also, my low tin/antimony alloy is casting a touch smaller than my previous alloys. I don't think this is going to be a problem. I'm enjoying the learning process, the casting and loading process, the shooting good groups process. This whole thing has been an awesome lot of fun.

[MBTcustom]

Brad, first that seems biased to silence an entire metric of shooting that my method hinges on wouldn't you say?
Secondly, I am hoping to be shooting ragged hole groups at 2600FPS and that has been been proven to be very possible with my system, so you need not worry about me polluting the thread with groups that don't qualify in the accuracy dept. or the HV dept. in fact, I promise that I will not post unless I have something worthy of the title of the thread.

[303Guy]

I am not seeking small groups using someone else's methods. I want to develop my own methods, for me. Following a cookbook works but it isn't very satisfying. I am truly a path less travelled kind of guy.Being OCD ADD myself, I can relate to that.;-) I don't follow cookbooks either!:mrgreen: There is a huge fun factor in treading the untrodden path or just trying to reinvent the wheel unaided (knowing that if one gets stuck one can always ask).

OK, the last few pages have been discussing what works but hidden somewhere in the extremely long thread are the details of what works and what doesn't. Might I ask for you good folks who have done the hard yards to summarize please, so someone with an ADD mind like mine can benefit? Actually, we will all benefit. Or at least point us to the posts that contain the details?

For example, I want to shoot cast in one of my rifles to a reasonable velocity but that rifle is a milsurp Lee Enfield (with a very good bore). It's plenty accurate with jacketed's, so it is a known good shooter (MOA). It has a tight chamber (for a milsurp). Because of what this rifle is, I would like to achieve jacketed performance with it. It's a fairly heavy sporter, a 1902 LE I action with a No4 barrel and an SMLE trigger. It's also scoped.

[btroj]

Not at all intended to remove anyone from the conversation. It is intended rather to stick to discussion shooting and not theory. We all know where discussing rpm gets us so why go there? It has been hashed out numerous times before and it only causes dissension and bad feelings. To me it is the single most divisive topic we could discuss.

I see the method you are using as being less abot rpm and more about hard alloy, certan powders, and a specific bullet.

I am am far more interested in the bullet, load, and results than I am the rifle you used.

[ballistim]

deleted

[Nrut]

Tim,
I would much rather see you start your own thread on your XCB rifles..
I for one would read it with interest..

If you post on this thread you should be asking questions and taking notes, if you really want to learn how to shoot "reactive bullets" at high velocity as you state in post 1126 above...

[303Guy]

Not wanting to mention the three, twist rate is a concern to me due to shear forces and skidding. So one of my first questions is which powders are best to give a gentle launch, a slow pressure rise and long even pressure curve. The 303 Brit case capacity is very similar to the 308 although the throats may be different.

What is a reactive boolit?

[MBTcustom]

Tim,
I would much rather see you start your own thread on your XCB rifles..
I for one would read it with interest..

If you post on this thread you should be asking questions and taking notes, if you really want to learn how to shoot "reactive bullets" at high velocity as you state in post 1126 above...

Im not interested in doing the high RPM reactive bullets. I spent way too much time on that, and I have none left to give (no offense to present company).
Your comment affirms what I think I see. The original stated purpose of this thread is much narrower than it seems. However, I don't know what's been going on behind the scenes. Could be some of my clients are getting overly rambunctious stating that this is the only way to do it. If that were the case, I think my presence here might have a positive effect.
On the other hand, if the thread is being "pruned" to a standard other than what is stated in the OP, then there is no way I could participate without violating the unspoken rules that have been imposed on this thread by Staff ( who could?) and I will exit stage left.

[geargnasher]

Peter, twist rate is a concern in two areas: Steep rifling and high velocity is liable to abrade the driving side of the land engraves if your alloy has too much antimony and/or tin in it, and the resulting high spin rate of the bullet (rpm) can act on bullet imperfections that affect balance and disrupt the bullet's stability in flight. If the first happens, abrasion, the antimony dust and/or tin fouling left remaining in the bore affects the friction condition irregularly, thus affecting barrel time in the same way lube inconsistencies do, and adversely affects consistent point of impact on target. The bullet can, conceivably, even abrade enough to strip completely except for the gas check, ruining accuracy, though that is next to impossible to do. Bullet balance issues occur, I think, mostly in the first inch of bullet travel, where the bullet must get out of the case neck and into the bore perfectly straight when there are a lot of things working against it doing so.

Your biggest challenge will probably be the launch, that first inch or less of bullet travel. That is where reducing tolerances, supporting the bullet straight through proper fit, and selecting an alloy/powder combination that gets the bullet through there without it becoming rumpled up or bent all come together (or not) to get the bullet safely on its way through the gun so it will fly true upon muzzle exit becomes paramount. Sorry, I have no recipe to get you there, that's the journey each of us must take.

Look to low-antimony, low-tin alloy, or even alloy with equal tin/animony but under 2.5% of each to handle the throat transition and rifling forces. Look for a bullet that is a close dimensional fit of the throat and chamber neck and has deep lube grooves to provide a place for the metal to move to without excessive force as the bullet engraves and swages through the throat down to groove diameter. Look for a powder that is in the medium burn-rate in published jacketed data, but more or less use what you have on hand in that range or slower and experiment. Using a compacting buffer, if you can get such an animal as BPI Original PSB, may help the case-barrel transition by keeping hot gas off of the bullet while it engraves, and hopefully push it more straight and evenly than gas alone can.

Gear

[btroj]

This thread is about what works and what doesn't for shooting cast at HV. No rules other than that. Discuss what we can do, not what we can't do. I don't see any narrowing of the concept, simply a desire to keep it about what we are doing. What is working for you, what didn't work out and what you did about it.

Yea, tim and his friends have a viable method. So do Bob, Run, And Gear. Neither is right, neither is wrong. They are simply different. Blondes and brunettes, Fords and Chevys.

Never heard of the 30 sil called being called a reactive bullet but I can see what it is being called one.

Heck, I don't even care if you try something totally different, just be willng to try. ShooterAZ certainly showed he found a mould that worked well for his rifle.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This thread was brought to my attention via phone call made by SBowers about a week ago. I checked it out, and I'm glad to see the success being had. I decided to post some results that I have seen on my end, since this is a thread about high velocity and what works. I simply said this is what works for me, and I have had a cordial interaction with Brad about what he is doing in his way.
Was this thread started to bring about healing and cooperation for the forum or to divide it? If healing and cooperation is the goal, then I think it's admirable and I support it.

My dream from the beginning has been to have a clearly presented path to success for all forms of HV cast bullet shooting.

Copper enhanced alloys
High RPM with reactive bullets
Slow RPM with custom barrels.
high RPM with breach seated bullets.
paper patched bullets.

I have tried to contribute to these goals with every fiber of my being for the last 5 years, and I have enjoyed success with the last three methods on the list, and I did my best to put tools in the hands of gentlemen who could succeed where I had failed in the previous two.
I still hope to realize this goal.
Tim,
Welcome back, I missed you, and I am truly glad you are back. I know you have plenty of things to add to a thread like this.

You asked this question...

Was this thread started to bring about healing and cooperation for the forum or to divide it?
The answer is neither.

To understand why this thread was started, see post #1
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255753-high-velocity-with-cast&p=2958473&viewfull=1#post2958473
================================================== ========================================


Just a reminder to ALL who are posting in this thread:
This topic has proven to be an emotional one for us boolit casters...Before you post your negative thoughts on someone else's tests or conclusions, wait a day before you hit "submit reply"...AND if someone comments negatively toward your post, again, wait a day before you reply.

Let the emotions settle out and give a kind critique, if you still feel it's necessary. Because, it's not just about you and the other member sharing words back and forth...If you look down near the bottom of this page, you'll see that there are 882 members (and a multitude of guests) following this thread, most of whom are not posting, just reading.
Jon

[MBTcustom]

Tim,
Welcome back, I missed you, and I am truly glad you are back. I know you have plenty of things to add to a thread like this.

You asked this question...

The answer is neither.

To understand why this thread was started, see post #1
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?255753-high-velocity-with-cast&p=2958473&viewfull=1#post2958473
================================================== ========================================


Just a reminder to ALL who are posting in this thread:
This topic has proven to be an emotional one for us boolit casters...Before you post your negative thoughts on someone else's tests or conclusions, wait a day before you hit "submit reply"...AND if someone comments negatively toward your post, again, wait a day before you reply.

Let the emotions settle out and give a kind critique, if you still feel it's necessary. Because, it's not just about you and the other member sharing words back and forth...If you look down near the bottom of this page, you'll see that there are 882 members (and a multitude of guests) following this thread, most of whom are not posting, just reading.
Jon
Thank you Jon, I missed you guys too. I just needed to get away for a while. Turns out shooting is fun! LOL!
I would like to contribute on this, and other threads as I am very excited about the work I am doing and the results I am seeing!
Im working with Bjorns old Bertha barrel till my new Brux shows up. Nothing wild and crazy, but it sure is fun! This rifle was previously barreled with a Remington 1-10 twist and I couldn't get good results to save my soul. I kept trying to get it done, but I just couldn't make it happen. Put on the bulged 14 twist barrel, and I had instant results that were far better than the old barrel could give. Nothing I would call either HV, nor accurate (about 1.5" at 2350 FPS for ten shots), but it was a huge improvement!

As soon as the Brux gets here, I hope to make some real progress. This new barrel will be interesting because it has a deeper groove than a normal barrel and I want to see if that gives me an edge over Bjornb's or Larry Gibson's results. I know it will be better than any of the barrels I have used thus far.

Also, I think I have an idea concept for an inexpensive target rifle I can put in peoples hands for much less money than has previously been possible (still working on that).

I'm going out shooting tomorrow, and I'm hoping for some good results.

[303Guy]

Thanks Gear. Then I have most of what I need. I don't have the right boolit mold though (other than for fit) so I'll see how what I do have gets along first then look for a better mold (if I can't make one).

Interesting comment on the low tin/antimony. I started out with just that and managed to fire such a soft alloy without base peening or distortion with H4350 but that was with paper patching. It also had copper in it.

Would polishing the bore help with driving edge abrasion?

Tim, I've missed you too. I was about to PM you to see where you were. Good to have you back.

[Sticky]

Because, it's not just about you and the other member sharing words back and forth...If you look down near the bottom of this page, you'll see that there are 882 members (and a multitude of guests) following this thread, most of whom are not posting, just reading.
JonI am one of these, following with great interest and have about a thousand posts to read back on in this thread alone (so much info, so little time to read and glean it all, but I will in time). I am new to casting and know that achieving success with some of my rifles that would be considered HV, will be a challenge, but one I will pursue in time as I gain knowledge, experience and confidence. So please, do continue to contribute your experiences, successes and failures, so that we can learn, somewhat, from your experiences.. regardless of your methods, they all are of interest!

I am primarily using WW, as I have a supply and this is my cost justification to keep the cost down over time. Yes, I have already spent a bunch on getting started, but over time, that will dwindle as I put together the tools needed to achieve results from casting. Thus my interest in being able to push low Sb, Sn alloys into the ranges needed for a couple of my 308 rifles. They are AR's not bolt guns, so I know that is relevant, but I want to be able to go to the range and punch paper with them for minimal cost. If I can take that a couple steps further, great, if not, no biggie, I have been working on loads with jboolits to achieve accuracy and effectiveness for hunting and other needs, but as the cost of components continue to rise, I am more focused on using what I already have available to keep future costs down.

I am going to start with the 300AAC (an AR pistol in my case) and some handgun loads (45acp, 357mag and 44 mag). The 300 is primarily for subsonic loadings, as these are the ones that cost the most to obtain jboolits for and it's a hoot to shoot quietly. The pistols, pretty simple.. inexpensive ammo over time. I think they will be pretty straightforward, as I have gleaned a plethora of information here and elsewhere to start me on that journey, but it is the quest to shoot HV in some of my rifles that will be my long-term goal (yes, I know it will take a while and a lot of experimentation, but that is something that I can do).

So thank you ALL for your contributions here, regardless of your methods, reasoning, type of bbl, bullet, lube, coating, whatever... it is all of interest to many of us, I'm sure!

[MBTcustom]

Sticky, dont be afeared of that 300BLK. Buddy of mine across town has a suppressed SBR, and I watched him chunk 250 grain powder coated bullets at 400 meters and hit a 2' X 3' square steel target with boring regularity. It's very doable.

Now, here was my first outing with the 1909 Argentine I screwed BjornB's old barrel into.
129751
129752
Speed was 2250ish. (looked at my notes)

So like I said, not really HV or very accurate, but it sure was fun for a first outing! (honestly though, I think I was straining against the stock to get into the scope and that caused some horizontal stringing. I corrected the scope mounting issue and we'll see if it makes a difference or not. )

303guy, yeah I'm back and I'm in good form. Needed to get my mind back on what's important. I feel great.

[Sticky]

Not a bad first outing at all Gear!

No fear here, I love shooting long ranges, so we'll see if we can get the peestol to shoot casts well. I have one mold now, another in a group buy from Miha down the road and got one of his 308 hunting boolit molds on the way from a closed group buy, so it's all good. Just need this sub-arctic weather to subside a bit and get out to the range and see what it'll do! I plan to sbr that and build a suppressor for it later this summer.

[runfiverun]

as far as a hunting boolit goes look at the one Tim had Tom cut for the xcb.
it's pretty dang close to the one I had Tom cut for my 308.
I posted a link to the 165-A back in the thread where I outlined what I done in my 308 to make 2400 fps.
now 2400 fps is almost a magic step as far as cast goes.
it starts to flatten out trajectory's. [it's also the upper limit for a hunting boolit as far as I have found]
for an explanation on what a boolit shape does for or against you at higher velocity look at good steels sticky in the hunting section, it's right under Dan walkers sticky on practical high velocity.
2600 fps is the number I had in mind when starting the whole xcb thing.
why did I pick that number you ask?
think about a 165 gr boolit/bullet at 2600 fps and it's expansion property's on game.
now if I can shoot my cast at that velocity and switch over to a home made jacketed bullet [tuned to work at that speed] of about the same weight with the same load...
that is about the ultimate in practical application as far as I am concerned.

[45 2.1]

now 2400 fps is almost a magic step as far as cast goes.
it starts to flatten out trajectory's. [it's also the upper limit for a hunting boolit as far as I have found]

Without going to a lot of work... Yes, it is. It can be done easily and cheaply also.

[runfiverun]

the first time wasn't so easy,,, I had to think.
I didn't even know what mold to start with, or how to do a pound cast.
I also had no clue on how to start with a slow[ish] powder and had to kinda wing it.
brass fitment gave me an aneurism for a while.

the next one was a bit easier, even though I followed a bit different path to get there.
but I had a basic understanding of what I was doing and what to try to make things happen.

the third was something different again it was basically just ripping off a jacketed load with the slowest powder the round used and working from low to high.

[geargnasher]

Well, you had it easy, I started with a Swedish Mauser!

Gear

[Forrest r]

Your biggest challenge will probably be the launch, that first inch or less of bullet travel. That is where reducing tolerances, supporting the bullet straight through proper fit, and selecting an alloy/powder combination that gets the bullet through there without it becoming rumpled up or bent all come together (or not) to get the bullet safely on its way through the gun so it will fly true upon muzzle exit becomes paramount. Sorry, I have no recipe to get you there, that's the journey each of us must take.

Look to low-antimony, low-tin alloy, or even alloy with equal tin/animony but under 2.5% of each to handle the throat transition and rifling forces. Look for a bullet that is a close dimensional fit of the throat and chamber neck and has deep lube grooves to provide a place for the metal to move to without excessive force as the bullet engraves and swages through the throat down to groove diameter. Look for a powder that is in the medium burn-rate in published jacketed data, but more or less use what you have on hand in that range or slower and experiment. Using a compacting buffer, if you can get such an animal as BPI Original PSB, may help the case-barrel transition by keeping hot gas off of the bullet while it engraves, and hopefully push it more straight and evenly than gas alone can.

Gear

As an outsider looking in, perhaps the "common" shooter with common chambers/twists might take a harder/closer look at one of the most important and overlooked tool in their bag, the simple pound cast.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/riflingleademarks_zps5d0d19fd.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/riflingleademarks_zps5d0d19fd.jpg.html)

Those are 2 different bullets, 311281 & 311414, and they fully engrave the riflings the same depth from the nose of the bullet (.302) to the ball lead/beginning of the rifling (.308). Where the rifling stops is where the ball leade begins (.309). And the bullet's base is tapered out to .3095 at the cg. That's what that bbl's pound cast looked like, so now any bullet I cast can be made to fit that bbl. Those bullets are fully supported from their .302 noses to the .3095 bases and are taped to match the taper of the riflings of the leade. Those bullets were altered in a bump die that was made from the dimensions from a simple pound cast.

There's 2 sides to every street, on one side of the street. Most shooters are looking at a pound cast and then trying to get the best fit/bullet, choose a bullet off the rack, so to speak. Or going with custom bbl's with custom chambers and using a bullet specifically designed for that rig. Or trying mechanical press-fits of a bullets that's close to their chamber/throat/leade to keep the bullet strait/centered so it doesn't get damaged during launch.

The other side of the street is taking a good hard look at the pound cast of the rifle being used and alter any bullet being cast to those dimensions. The result is a bullet that's a perfect fit every time to that rifle with a multitude of different bullets/molds.

Perhaps when re-barreling isn't an option and finding the "perfect" bullet to fit the extreme leade angles of throats on some of these modern calibers isn't the easiest thing to do. Using a bump die to make the bullet fit that bbl to take away all the bullet fit/skidding/bending/twisting/flame cut bases might be a good place to start. Take all those things out of play, the shooter should be left with alloy/lube/powder.

Just something to think about, those pounds casts have allot to tell anyone who is willing to listen.

[runfiverun]

Forrest this isn't a private thread.
it's open to anyone willing to participate in the why/how it can be done.

your post is exactly where you/I/they/us need to start...

the question is why is this so important?
why can't you just pull a lyman mold off the shelf and run it up to 24-2700 fps.
and how did lyman miss the boat on this small fact?

[45 2.1]

the question is why is this so important?
why can't you just pull a lyman mold off the shelf and run it up to 24-2700 fps.
and how did lyman miss the boat on this small fact?

Lyman didn't miss that fact Lamar, they changed direction from everyone complaining they had to size boolits down a lot...... without help from a tapered entrance to the sizing die and lubrisizers without enough strength to do so. Most of the really old Lyman/Ideal molds are fine because they do cast large enough. RCBS, Lyman, Redding, etc. are a little small NOW to produce good HV groups like they used to do (without alloy tricks and HT) in the older Lyman handbooks.

[TXGunNut]

...If you look down near the bottom of this page, you'll see that there are 882 members (and a multitude of guests) following this thread, most of whom are not posting, just reading.
Jon

Yes, following this thread closely but nothing to add but encouragement. I applaud the efforts to keep this thread on track even if they do seem to be a bit heavy-handed. Case prep and a certain theory have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, they are beyond the narrow scope of this thread.
I'll be glad when the weather improves so we can see more range reports.

[303Guy]

How significant is neck turning for high velocity cast?

[btroj]

Velocity and cast have little to do with neck turning. Neck turning can play a role in accuracy and is required in a tight neck chamber like tim is putting in the XCB rifles.

Neck turning is a tool. It can help in some cases but is of dubious help in a factory chamber where it simply increases already healthy neck clearances. Use brass with pretty consistent neck walls in a factory chamber and neck turning doesn't matter.

[dtknowles]

Velocity and cast have little to do with neck turning. Neck turning can play a role in accuracy and is required in a tight neck chamber like tim is putting in the XCB rifles.

Neck turning is a tool. It can help in some cases but is of dubious help in a factory chamber where it simply increases already healthy neck clearances. Use brass with pretty consistent neck walls in a factory chamber and neck turning doesn't matter.

I agree, it as all about the chamber and the brass. If it is already loose don't make it worse, I would not even kiss off the high side.

Tim

Tim

[Pilgrim]

Amen btroj!! Been there - done that and what you said is spot on. I ran several 1000 j bullets thru my .223 to try and sort out what mattered for accuracy in a standard chamber and what didn't. Different chambers might show different results, but I'd guess not dramatically so. For me, neck turning just opened up groups in a standard chamber (I used a Marquardt reamer). If anyone is interested in my results, check Rifle magazine 1994 vintage.

[btroj]

I think there was more than one article in Precision Shooting regarding neck turning for factory rifles and they all pretty well said the same thing- not gonna help.
Now if you can find a way to make cases with thick necks where turning is required, then it helps.

People assume that because the BR crowd neck turns it must help- they fail to realize those rifles have tight neck chambers and it is required.

Run likes to use a little trick to help center the bullet better. Use enough neck flair to hold the bullet centered in the neck of the chamber. Fools the rifle into thinking it has a tight neck and it can make a difference.

[MBTcustom]

Actually, the neck turning is only required when forming XCB from 30-06. At the time it was conceived, it was generally thought and preached, that having tight necks was a very big boon to HV shooting, but as it turned out, its just another of those things that gives you an edge. Seems like its much more important to get the neck tension correct (which turning can be used to effect if you do it right).
Another advantage of perfectly fitting necks is brass life, and the ability to FL size and maintain alignment. Obviously, if you are neck sizing and shooting a bullet that fits the lead with any degree of proper fit, and seated with an accurate seating die, the front of the cartridge will be piloted correctly. Its one of those things where you have to get any three of five-ish things going in the right direction. Pick your poison.
The goal is to get the doggon bullet in the barrel in a concentric and straight fashion. As long as you make that happen, you can use any part of the cartridge you desire to accomplish that goal.
However, it's really nice when you have the head, the rim, the body, the shoulder, the case neck, the case mouth, the gas check, the driving bands, and the ogive, all saying the same thing.
Straight square parallel, and concentric. There are a thousand ways to make that happen. The trick is to find out which of these possibilities your personal set of reloading equipment realizes.

[leftiye]

So, say that you made an alloy of 1/2% tin, 1/2 % silver, 1/10th % nickel, 1/2% copper, and 3% antimony, and heat treated it to- (astronomical BHN) - it might act like a jacketed bullet, no? It might not have to be BHN 300 like guilding metal is to avoid the soft metal lead blues? So, you make a mold to fit your chamber (no lube grooves, simply drill the cavity with a shaped drill), powder coat it. High velocity capable, or not? It would be muy tough (with lossa "gription" - thanks R5R), maybe a hollow point hunting boolit?

[geargnasher]

Actually, the neck turning is only required when forming XCB from 30-06. At the time it was conceived, it was generally thought and preached, that having tight necks was a very big boon to HV shooting, but as it turned out, its just another of those things that gives you an edge. Seems like its much more important to get the neck tension correct (which turning can be used to effect if you do it right). ..........


In many instances, not involving slow twist barrels and extremely hard bullets, I have found snugging the neck fit to be far more than "an edge", I would say the advantage can be measured in inches. Specifically, when pressure rise starts to see the high side of 30K PSI. Something to keep in mind if you don't want to be shooting linotype or heat treated Lyman #2 alloy, say, for hunting purposes, or your bullet shape/weight is dependent on the neck for guidance for the first bit of travel instead of the throat. Lamar and I have cited several examples of the distinct improvement we experienced at HV using various tricks for decreasing total loaded neck clearance to .002" or less. Is it always a requirement? No, but it IS something to be aware of and pay attention to, and also seems to be one of the big limiting factors to accurate velocity that many people experience in standard production rifles with the sort of alloys with which anyone would feel comfortable hunting game.

The good news is that work is being done right now to find a workaround that will make extremely large neck tolerance irrelevant if it is successful.

As far as turning necks to remove high spots, I do it because I find a slight advantage to accuracy SOMETIMES, but it is certainly "going the wrong direction" when a potential issue is having too little metal in the necks to begin with. Some brass has as much as .002" thickness variance from one side to the other, which can cause static misalignment of the bullet that only worsens during the firing event as the thin side of the neck yields first, exacerbating that misalignment. Ultimately, "it only matters if it does".

Gear

[MBTcustom]

In many instances, not involving slow twist barrels and extremely hard bullets, I have found snugging the neck fit to be far more than "an edge", I would say the advantage can be measured in inches. Specifically, when pressure rise starts to see the high side of 30K PSI. Something to keep in mind if you don't want to be shooting linotype or heat treated Lyman #2 alloy, say, for hunting purposes, or your bullet shape/weight is dependent on the neck for guidance for the first bit of travel instead of the throat. Lamar and I have cited several examples of the distinct improvement we experienced at HV using various tricks for decreasing total loaded neck clearance to .002" or less. Is it always a requirement? No, but it IS something to be aware of and pay attention to, and also seems to be one of the big limiting factors to accurate velocity that many people experience in standard production rifles with the sort of alloys with which anyone would feel comfortable hunting game.

The good news is that work is being done right now to find a workaround that will make extremely large neck tolerance irrelevant if it is successful.

As far as turning necks to remove high spots, I do it because I find a slight advantage to accuracy SOMETIMES, but it is certainly "going the wrong direction" when a potential issue is having too little metal in the necks to begin with. Some brass has as much as .002" thickness variance from one side to the other, which can cause static misalignment of the bullet that only worsens during the firing event as the thin side of the neck yields first, exacerbating that misalignment. Ultimately, "it only matters if it does".

Gear

Oh I agree completely. Since I have not yet found an instance where looser necks is a good thing, I just try to always take the minimum amount necessary to clean up the necks. If I don't have to remove material I don't. In fact, my latest batch of brass is not totally cleaned up at all. I just split the difference, and I get a very nice slip fit in the gauge I made with the chamber reamer (just cut to the shoulder and stopped so I can feel the fit).
I would think that having an even neck thickness would be a good thing though. Especially with a cast bullet, and especially if the neck doesn't fit well in the chamber, no?
I mean, at the moment of launch, the bullet base will follow the path of least resistance and the neck will open toward the thinner side easier wouldn't it? I know it's that way with jacketed bullets, and the highpower crowd has been turning necks to improve scores for years. The typical chamber on a high power rifle is sloppy as all get out, but they still turn the necks.
I suppose for a cast bullet you're caught in a crossfire between support and alignment. If you have the most support, you have lousy alignment (assuming you got cheap brass that has weird neck variations) and if you turn the necks so you get good alignment, then you have no support.

Being that the case (pun intended), would it not make sense to turn the necks so that you get a good release, and use the bullet nose and the shoulder/body to gain alignment? (assuming we are talking about a standard factory chamber here).
If you are depending on the neck to align the bullet, it simply must​ be a perfect fit, or nothing at all. Since you can't achieve a perfect fit, then would it not be wise to try to achieve a perfect release?

[btroj]

I don't know of any Highpower shooters around here who neck turned anything. We sorted cases and used those with less than .001 neck variance for 600 but no neck turning. Those less then .002 got used for short line stuff. With Win cases in 223 it was easy to find 300 per thousand with .001 or less variance.

[MBTcustom]

I don't know of any Highpower shooters around here who neck turned anything. We sorted cases and used those with less than .001 neck variance for 600 but no neck turning. Those less then .002 got used for short line stuff. With Win cases in 223 it was easy to find 300 per thousand with .001 or less variance.

Yeah, but Winchester is good stuff.
Also, sorting by neck thickness is pretty much the same thing. Those cartridges fall into the chamber of an M14 like a basketball in a 55 gallon drum. You care about neck thickness for getting a consistent launch. Seems that if you do that for jacketed bullets that can pretty much take care of themselves, then it would go double for cast. Like I said, it's just an edge, and we need all the help we can get.

My question is, where do you draw the line? On one side of the balance you have caseneck fit in the chamber. On the other, you have consistent launch, and bullet alignment in the brass. Which do you err on the side of safety towards? If it depends: On what factors?

[geargnasher]

I don't know what factors it depends on, all I can say is go try some each way and see what the gun likes. I've been surprised more often than not what the guns tell me about various things. All of what you said about even thickness and even release (especially in a large chamber neck that doesn't support a thing during the first part of the launch) makes perfect sense to me, but ultimately you have to shoot and see. If bullet shape, body size, jump, powder burn rate, and alloy are working to blow everything up to the maximum confines of the chamber neck before the bullet gets fully into the barrel, none of that matters anyway.

You're right on about Winchester brass in an M1A, compared to at least four other commercial headstamps that I happen to have of recent manufacture, is indeed akin to a basket ball in a 55-gallon drum....my analogy was a BB in a boxcar, just trying to find a wall!

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I don't know what factors it depends on, all I can say is go try some each way and see what the gun likes. I've been surprised more often than not what the guns tell me. All of what you said about even thickness and even release (especially in a large chamber neck that doesn't support a thing during the first part of the launch) makes perfect sense to me, but ultimately you have to shoot and see. If bullet shape, body size, jump, powder burn rate, and alloy are working to blow everything up to the maximum confines of the chamber neck before the bullet gets fully into the barrel, none of that matters anyway.

Gear

Exactly the way I see it.
So riddle me this: Have you ever seen an instance where having a sloppier fitting neck was actually a good thing with cast? In other words, you had a fairly good shooting combination with perfectly fit necks, you turned some off for some reason and accuracy improved?

I guess what I am proposing is a general rule of thumb that case neck RO is more important that neck fit in the chamber. I would like to say that is always true.

[geargnasher]

Yes I have, in the XCB. When shooting "softer" bullets, like air-cooled 50/50 wheel weights/pure, at lower speeds using Unique, I saw a marked improvement in 100-yard groups using some brass that I "over" turned, giving about .0015" or so total clearance instead of the normal .0005-8" I run for best accuracy at higher speeds. In that instance, at least, softer metal liked more wiggle room. I was using an MTF bullet seated about .0010" off the lands IIRC.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Very interesting. I'm glad I asked.

[geargnasher]

In response to your added comment about proposing a "general rule", all I can say is the rules of the HV game change so much depending on you whole approach that there's very little that can be nailed down. You mentioned many posts back along with the 2900 fps group something about "properly fitting bullet". Do you know what that is? Do you think the same rules apply to that chamber for straight wheel weight alloy, or 50/50, or hardball? I can tell you that they do not in the XCB/'06 throat. If you change alloy enough, you're going to have to change your whole approach, probably even bullet shape. Same thing if you change powder burn rate enough. So if I show you a pound cast and ask you to design a bullet to fit it so's I can hunt whitetail a little further out, say 2400 fps, will you know what it will take? How about I want to compete for small groups on paper, short range, and want maximum accuracy. What bullet will fit that same chamber best for that scenario, and with what alloy? Some of these things ARE fairly easy to generalize, but not all of them.

Perhaps one day this will all be sorted out and put into an HV encyclopedia where one can look up a list of attributes for their gun and what techniques to apply for what velocity/bullet weight, but we have so many things that work in a variety of guns already that I doubt it will happen, or even be needed. If you try to think of all this as black and white and nail down "rules", you're going to do nothing but be frustrated.

Gear

[303Guy]

Perhaps this is why some milsurps with fast twists shoot better with longer, heavy for calibre boolits. The boolits get guided at launch by the throat and not the case neck.

One of my rifles has been giving me uneven engraving i.e. the one side of the boolit engraves while the other does not. I have not done a chamber cast (or pound cast) but I am fearing a misaligned chamber. It would be a pity because this bore is good, the rifle having been FTR'd. The bore is .303. I am now thinking of using a shorter boolit seated out to fully engage the throat so that it is supported near the nose and near the base.

[runfiverun]

The goal is to get the doggon bullet in the barrel in a concentric and straight fashion. As long as you make that happen, you can use any part of the cartridge you desire to accomplish that goal.
However, it's really nice when you have the head, the rim, the body, the shoulder, the case neck, the case mouth, the gas check, the driving bands, and the ogive, all saying the same thing.
Straight square parallel, and concentric. There are a thousand ways to make that happen. The trick is to find out which of these possibilities your personal set of reloading equipment realizes.

BAM!!!!
after measuring you gotta figure out how to do this.
the load details are pretty far down the list.
the primer pockets, flash holes whatever.
find the centerline of the barrel and get a correct [not oversized] sized boolit moving into it straight.

using an oversized boolit to make up the difference does NOT fix the problem, it creates other ones.
a little oversized will work if you have someplace for the metal to flow to without distortion.

I like a larger single lube groove and a large front drive band.
I like the angles on the drive band to be about 30* this gives that extra metal a place to move to.
it straightens out that front lube groove wall just a little as everything flows that little bit, but doesn't go past the 90* mark, making everything roll over backward tearing little bits of metal away.
these little bits of metal are flung off with the lube and can cause imbalance to the boolit in flight.
I also like the bottom of the lube groove to slightly engrave the rifling just like a nose would.

read DR.B's sticky on trailing edge failure...
and you can see what can happen behind the lube groove if there isn't some room in front of the gas check for the same movement to happen.

have you ever found a boolit with lead [or a lead like coloring] all over the gas check.
think about how that got on the back of the boolit...

[geargnasher]

Yep, line it all up just so in the chamber and pull the trigger......................well, maybe. Depends on how the alloy chosen reacts to the powder chosen. Those are your next two things to get sorted out, because if the bullet base rivets in the case neck or bends to the weak/thin side as it's headed into the throat, it usually isn't good.

Gear

[runfiverun]

peter.
sometimes you can use other parts of the boolit to help align things.
my argies have some cavernous throats, so I had a 200 gr boolit made up in a loverign style to help fill things up.
but before I received it I got to really looking at my 314299 which pours out to 3145 and has a nose a click over 304. [in WW alloy]
I thought about trying to seat the boolit waay out there, but that was not gonna happen.
how I worked my way around it was to actually back the boolit off, and go to a harder alloy my 4/6/90 [to gain just a bit more diameter on the nose] and find the thickest brass I could to help things align better.
I went to a bit quicker powder than I did with my 308 and started the pressure peaking just a bit sooner.
this allowed me to run the nose directly into the tapered throat just about the time the front driving bands started hitting metal and grabbing rifling, the larger nose was doing the same thing.

I finally started getting decent accuracy out of the rifle and could move ahead with slower powders gaining velocity as I worked the system around the same maximum pressure window.
I had to find that break over point first.

I still ain't tried that loverign boolit.

[geargnasher]

Big mouthful there about finding the right alloy/pressure/jump dynamic and then working up the velocity with the powder. The same window often applies. Weird how one can shoot 1600 fps with one alloy and one particular charge weight of Unique to get some bugholes, then take that same exact alloy to 2200 fps with 3031, but only within about a one grain window for the best group. It's the bump, got to get the wiggle and the bump right. If your powder doesn't jive with the rifle's harmonics right when it's jiving with the bump and wiggle the bullet needs, that powder will NEVER be any good. This is why two powders of virtually identical burn rate won't always interchange well within a given system.

Gear

[btroj]

So we really need to go and shoot our rifle, with our bullets, and see what happens? Wonder how many rounds it takes to get a good handle on this?:-P

[runfiverun]

you ain't kiddin there.
you should have seen the groups triple in size when I switched from imr-4895 to H-4895 in my 22-250
with the HM-2 boolit I designed.
I changed nothing else in the load but the powder.
I had to drop back just over a full grain for things to settle back down.

[geargnasher]

I don't know, Brad, how many do you plan to shoot through it once you get it all dialed in and driving tacks? Do you plan to just put the rifle away in storage along with one loaded box of that ammo you spent all the time and money perfecting?

Gear

[btroj]

Nope. I plan to sit at the range and plink clays at 200 or so. This rifle sure as heck isn't going hunting with me! Once we stop looking at new things we stop learning.

I do see a place for a good load to be used for lube testing.

If if all goes well I will be shooting next week. Will be wearing the Muck boots as it will be slushy and muddy after 10 inches of snow followed by 40 degree weather.

[geargnasher]

I think my fresh batch of Ardito bullets are reaching maturity, going to go load a few of those up for tomorrow, maybe get to the range with the back-asswards Savage and M1A. Supposed to be like today, sunny and mid-70s.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

In response to your added comment about proposing a "general rule", all I can say is the rules of the HV game change so much depending on you whole approach that there's very little that can be nailed down. You mentioned many posts back along with the 2900 fps group something about "properly fitting bullet". Do you know what that is? Do you think the same rules apply to that chamber for straight wheel weight alloy, or 50/50, or hardball? I can tell you that they do not in the XCB/'06 throat. If you change alloy enough, you're going to have to change your whole approach, probably even bullet shape. Same thing if you change powder burn rate enough. So if I show you a pound cast and ask you to design a bullet to fit it so's I can hunt whitetail a little further out, say 2400 fps, will you know what it will take? How about I want to compete for small groups on paper, short range, and want maximum accuracy. What bullet will fit that same chamber best for that scenario, and with what alloy? Some of these things ARE fairly easy to generalize, but not all of them.

Perhaps one day this will all be sorted out and put into an HV encyclopedia where one can look up a list of attributes for their gun and what techniques to apply for what velocity/bullet weight, but we have so many things that work in a variety of guns already that I doubt it will happen, or even be needed. If you try to think of all this as black and white and nail down "rules", you're going to do nothing but be frustrated.

Gear

On the contrary, I have found a method of shooting deliciously high velocities with the kind of accuracy I used to look for in jacketed rifles, and it can be reproduced again and again and again, like clockwork. The loads that worked in one rifle, work in another and it's pretty cut and dried. All I did was pay attention to what has been said by you and R5R on many occasions.
You were right, it worked! It's actually done pretty well in all 30 caliber rifles, with many different alloys, but in the XCB, it's been almost too easy.
That said, I haven't personally shot softer alloys in it yet since getting that jinxed Remington barrel off there, (the last range trip was just fireforming brass) but I will be trying out my house alloy (95.6/2.2/2.2) in it tomorrow. Regardless, I know that Lyman #2 is a winner, and if I just cant help dragging my 20lb rifle out to the woods, I can just HP it, or cast some bi-metal bullets or something right? Heck the fellers figured out how to get around hard bullets a long time ago.

That brings up another question I have. You're shooting these soft bullets at HV and say you have all this awesome accuracy and everything but what are you going to do when it comes time to hunt? I mean, I can make my bullets softer or more reactive, but can you make yours harder? How are you planning on avoiding the little scenario like you see in the link in my sig line? (trust me, you don't want to do that.)
(I'm honestly not trying to be a smart-butt here. I really want to know what the plan is, or if this is just about targets right now?)
Thanks.

[runfiverun]

I got a die set that wraps copper around lead alloy.
oddly I have to manipulate my alloy inside those copper wraps too to make them work the way I want them to.
even a jacketed bullet is subject to meplat, alloy, and anneal when it comes to on game performance.

[geargnasher]

Uh, Tim, I heat treat them to the hardness required.

Gear

[btroj]

Easy, I grab the Marlin 1895 and none of it matters.

[MBTcustom]

I got a die set that wraps copper around lead alloy.
oddly I have to manipulate my alloy inside those copper wraps too to make them work the way I want them to.
even a jacketed bullet is subject to meplat, alloy, and anneal when it comes to on game performance.

Yes, but with a jacketed bullet rifle, you have flexibility to make the bullet any hardness you want. Seems like the method you fellers are using to get to HV, is all about alloy and the hardness of it, which is an awesome trick if you can make it work. But what if your bullets are perfect for the rifle, and shoot accurately, but are just too soft to hit a deer with without producing a pink mist on top of four hoofs and a really surprised looking wall mount? LOL!

I need to have a conversation with you on the subject of jacketed bullets Lamar, but that's a discussion for another thread (I'll give everybody here a little tip: Don't ever tell Bill Schneider what we are doing here with HV cast. It's impossible don'tcha know? Your bullets will melt coming out of the barrel! I'm not kidding, he told me that. LOL!)


I'm just wondering how you are preparing your bullets for terminal performance, or if it has been considered yet. I see you heat treat them to match the rifle, but what happens if the rifle likes something that is softer than what the deer likes? Or are you typically finding success with harder bullets in the 27bhn range? I would think that you would have to be no softer than the mid to low 20s to control expansion at the speeds we are pushing (please correct me if I'm wrong) especially with a bullet wearing a large flat nose.
If you guys aren't thinking about hunting applications yet, I understand. I was just wondering what you thoughts were on that.

[MBTcustom]

Easy, I grab the Marlin 1895 and none of it matters.

Alright Brad, go ahead and give the Sunday school answer.
Bwahahahahaha!
(That big rifle is going to make me lead poor I swear!)

[btroj]

My range scrap heat treats easily to 22-24 BHn. I would have no trouble hunting deer with that alloy at 2400 fps.
Hit a deer where you are supposed to and it isn't an issue. I don't care to hit a deer in the shoulders with anything, it just makes a mess. Jacketed or cast, no shoulders please.

I can can also add a bit more Sb and by altering the powder curve I can get equal accuracy with a harder bullet. I also could go all MI on the deer and add Cu to the alloy and solve the issue entirely.

No one right answer, is there?

[MBTcustom]

My range scrap heat treats easily to 22-24 BHn. I would have no trouble hunting deer with that alloy at 2400 fps.
Hit a deer where you are supposed to and it isn't an issue. I don't care to hit a deer in the shoulders with anything, it just makes a mess. Jacketed or cast, no shoulders please.

I can can also add a bit more Sb and by altering the powder curve I can get equal accuracy with a harder bullet. I also could go all MI on the deer and add Cu to the alloy and solve the issue entirely.

No one right answer, is there?

No, that's a perfectly good answer and I hope you can do that some day and document the results.
I'm also hoping the MI boys will start a thread to teach the general public a process for developing HV Cu enriched loads. That's another thing I was dabbling in, but I had to drop it for the same reason I couldn't continue in the HV with standard twist quest.
It would be nice to see what can be done with each method.

Cast boolitry is not black and white. Like anything, there is black and white in the picture, but there are other colors as well. I would like to see each of four methods displayed to the enth degree for the world to see. I have simply been trying to nail down that which is always true, and that which is sometimes true and sometimes not.

You guys are getting really close here. What I'm still hoping to see is a candid cause and effect series of demonstrations that will help someone know what to do and when. I understand very well that with this method, everything depends on everything else, it only matters if it does, and its all an educated guess till you pull the trigger. That is just a little too vague.
I see this method very much like I used to look at Thai kickboxing. You learn what works, and you learn how to react to problems quickly and accurately using set skills. The skills are static, the application is dynamic.
However, if you never see advanced fighters using the skills and demonstrating what is possible and solving real world issues on the fly, it's very easy to never realize your personal potential.
As it is, you are the only one who has shown what is possible with this method, and I applaud you for having the stones to put it out there (no matter what might be said about it), and sticking to the ten shot groups. That's honest and plain demonstration.
Still, you're using a custom bench rifle with a 30" Krieger Matchgrade barrel. That is a definite edge. I would like to see this done with a standard factory 30-06. I would have to say the man that can do that and post like you did is a Jedi master of a booliteer, and would bring a lot of momentum to the quest.

I'm glad you guys are loosening up and posting, and I hope that the road to fruition can be made less rocky for those who follow. That goes forstudents of all​ methods.

[runfiverun]

we done a very good thread on Cu enriched alloys some time back, two of them as a matter of fact.
EDD done one and another one was to further the discussion.
Popper describes a very simple way to swap copper in for zinc.
and I described a way to get copper bits into a tin rich alloy making a Babbit of sorts to cut into your alloy.
EDD and I discussed it through a bunch of pm's and he furthered the method refining it a bit better.
I think I even explained how to make it work using copper coated 22lr boolits.

[geargnasher]

Yes, but with a jacketed bullet rifle, you have flexibility to make the bullet any hardness you want. It is essentially the same with bare bullets, though you have less leeway with skin toughness. Seems like the method you fellers are using to get to HV, is all about alloy and the hardness of it, which is an awesome trick if you can make it work. But what if your bullets are perfect for the rifle, and shoot accurately, but are just too soft to hit a deer with without producing a pink mist on top of four hoofs and a really surprised looking wall mount? LOL! Then you toughen the bullet with heat and re-tune the load. I can make 50/50 work from 500 fps to 2500 fps, heat treat it for best results at any speed, and tune the powder to make it accurate in any system provided I have the right bullet design for the guns.

I need to have a conversation with you on the subject of jacketed bullets Lamar, but that's a discussion for another thread (I'll give everybody here a little tip: Don't ever tell Bill Schneider what we are doing here with HV cast. It's impossible don'tcha know? Your bullets will melt coming out of the barrel! I'm not kidding, he told me that. LOL!)


I'm just wondering how you are preparing your bullets for terminal performance, or if it has been considered yet. Some of us who are developing HV loads to HUNT WITH keep bringing it up on this thread to the great criticism of those who rely on linotype (or wd#2)/slow twist systems to get HV accuracy. I know this thread is long, but you've missed a lot if you haven't gone through it and done some reading. People have been hunting with HV cast since before you or I were born, the problem was solved long ago through the proper selection of alloy. I see you heat treat them to match the rifle, but what happens if the rifle likes something that is softer than what the deer likes? Then, like Lamar and I were discussing a few posts ago, you adjust the toughness of the bullet and rework the load to suit that toughness. I don't think it clicked for you because you haven't yet done enough work with alloys to see how the pieces of the puzzle fit together....hopefully you will, but you won't get it through reading alone, you'll have to do a lot of work with just one alloy where only the degree of heat treating is changed, and then work with the same alloy at just one heat treat level and change powder and charge until you get it dialed in. Then you'll see how good groups, terminal performance, and desired velocity can all be where you want them to be. Or are you typically finding success with harder bullets in the 27bhn range? No. I can find success with a variety of toughnesses, with the same alloy, by changing powder, bullet shape, or things like seating depth to alter the launch pressure of the powder to something the system likes. I would think that you would have to be no softer than the mid to low 20s to control expansion at the speeds we are pushing (please correct me if I'm wrong) especially with a bullet wearing a large flat nose. Probably softer than that, but I get what I need at about 20 bhn up to 23-2400 fps, above that, it probably needs to be toughened more and below that definitely needs to be softer. Meplat doesn't matter much on small caliber bullets at high velocity made from ductile alloy.
If you guys aren't thinking about hunting applications yet, I understand. I was just wondering what you thoughts were on that? Hunting alloy was a big point of contention, few seemed to care about it, only velocity and groups, but that was coming from people who only knew how to do this HV thing one way, and it involved what I call "armor piercing" alloy. Remember how just a few weeks ago you were going to do those expansion tests with linotype to see if the criticisms of the hunting crowd were valid? Remember why? It was because someone told you you weren't going to do very well hunting with it, that you needed a softer, less brittle alloy and you knew you couldn't get the accurate velocity with such an alloy at those speeds. Yeah, it's been thought about, and solved, long ago. Ask Bob how many seasons he's been hunting.

You haven't learned about alloy/pressure/temper yet and how it relates not only to shooting good groups out of normal rifles at relatively high velocity, but to terminal performance. Here's the short version: Each rifle and bullet combination has a combination of alloy and powder that work "best" in it. Wiggle and Bump. If you want to go faster, you have to manipulate the powder to give the right wiggle and bump at higher speed. If you want (or need) to go tougher with the alloy, you'll have to hit it harder, but at the same speed (does that make sense?) to get it to wiggle and bump the same as before and shoot well the same as before with softer alloy and different powder at lower velocity.

You can tune alloy, temper, and powder to do just about anything you want. If you want more velocity with accuracy, work the powder around. If you also need it to be tougher, heat treat it and work the powder around again. If you want a milder load, soften the alloy with heat and work the powder around again to get the best groups. This is about versatility, not limitations. Once you understand how this all works, you can do lots of things. I don't see 3K fps with 50/50 and normal, 30-caliber twists, though, I just don't. Maybe I'm still naive. Neither do I see 50/50, even oven heat treated, working well on game at that sort of speed. I DO see a place for babbit-toughened alloy, though, or more realistically, paper jackets for both the accuracy and the game performance. Everything has it's practical limitations.

Ok, said the same thing about six different ways here as best I know how. I think it's really important to learn about this because it was really important to my success with cast bullets. That's about as well as I can do without you actually going out and doing the work, but ultimately, that's what you'll have to do before what I wrote over and over, and has been discussed by Lamar, Brad, Bob, myself, and a couple of others repeatedly on this thread will finally make sense.

How many rounds do you think it will take with how many different alloys and powders before you get the picture? 1500-2000 is pretty close, assuming you know in advance how to set up the tests and what to look for.

Gear

[45 2.1]

I don't see 3K fps with 50/50 and normal, 30-caliber twists, though, I just don't. Neither do I see 50/50, even oven heat treated, working well on game at that sort of speed. Gear

It can be done at least two different ways...... with good results.

[geargnasher]

It works great with a paper jacket, I know that firsthand. I haven't tried any other alternatives to plain-jane lubed/gas checked. No, I'm not fooling with copper driving bands, but others may! :p

Gear

[runfiverun]

is this a good time to bring up my tubing boolits again ??
I got told they wouldn't work [I'd stick the tubing blah, blah] by everybody but Bullshop the first time I tried to discuss them here.
[shrug]


they are @ 65% exposed super soft lead with a soft copper tubing base and hit @2400 fps easy enough.
they actually work very well with the metford rifling in the 7.7, and the hint of rifling in the 2 groove 303.

I thought for sure the spire point nose would set back under acceleration stress but they must not because the boolits are not off balance when striking the target.
that's with H-322 and a filler.
they produce about the fastest bang/flop on a deer I have ever seen, without tearing up meat when you shoot them through the shoulders.

little girl swiped and stashed a couple hundred of them for her rifle after shooting her second deer with them when she was 13 [I guess she had some foresight]
cause me and the oldest girl have just about shot the rest of the batch of 1,000 we made back then.

[MT Gianni]

I remember a annual mag of some sort with an article on tubing as a bore rider in the 375 H&H. 3/8" od and he modified a mold to use cut rings of 1/8" length then inserted them into the mold and poured. No ideas if it was type L or M copper.

[MBTcustom]

Alright fellers, I got to enjoy some range time today. It was very cool. The rifle I'm using is a 1909 Argentine that I built into a bench gun for myself as a Christmas present (Lord knows that's about all I got last year.)
Here's the gun named Felix:
130031
130032
130033
130039
This rifle gets a lot of attention at the range. I end up explaining what it is, and what it's used for many times each range session. When I tell people it's for shooting cast lead at fast speeds, I get everything from "wont the bullets lead your barrel?" to "wont they just melt and splatter the target?" LOL!
Lots of people want to shoot it and I oblige them. Here's a couple of people who hit me up today getting a piece of the action:
130048
130050

Never drew a crowd like that with my old BDL! LOL! It was fun.

Anywho, here's the groups I shot. Turns out I can lay down 20 shot strings before the barrel starts to feel a little "warmish" so that's what I did.
Here's a couple of the good ones.
These were XCB bullets cast of Linotype, and lubed with Lars 2500+, pushed with WC867, at 2300 FPS +-10FPS.
This string was focused on my GC uniforming method. These were the un uniformed checks:
20 shots no pause
130051
These were the uniformed gas checks.
15 shots, no pause (pardon the two fliers @ 9:00 and 11:00. It was hard to close the bolt on those two for some reason, and they flew away from the group. I need to try to figure out what's up with that.)
130052

Next I decided to try some Leverevolution powder @ 2750FPS. No bueno. Didn't like the linotype, and it didn't like my house alloy.
(never mind those smaller shots to the left. The poor lost soul with an AR on the bench next to me decided to help me with my target. He was so embarrassed, but I told him it was all good and we had a good laugh about it. LOL!)
130053

Next, I tried a load of H414 @ 2550FPS and again, I got dismal results. (for the record, this same group was shot with brass that had not been prepped with all the tricks, and the group was so large, I won't bother posting it.)

130054

Now, not to make excuses for myself, but this barrel has a definite bulge in it. I have a new one coming, but I wanted to enjoy a little shooting before that happens. 2300 isn't bad, but I want to push it on up to 2700 and hold a decent group at that speed.

Something else I did today was shoot some of my house alloy bullets at 2300 FPS, and surprisingly enough they shot just like the Linotype (although I only had five of them which is nothing I put any stock in.) I thought the house alloy would be a bust, but those five held the POI and group size, so I will be making more and trying them next time.

[geargnasher]

Dang, I don't feel so bad about the groups I got with my M1A today! :kidding: I thought you cut the bulged part off of that barrel? Was it too far forward to do that?

Check for lead rings at the end of the chamber when the bolt's hard to close, that happens sometimes with a bullet that engages the whole ball seat at once with some powder/alloy/seating depth combinations, I've had the same problem with MTF bullets and my XCB with certain combinations and it will for sure cause a flyer.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Dang, I don't feel so bad about the groups I got with my M1A today! :kidding: I thought you cut the bulged part off of that barrel? Was it too far forward to do that?

Check for lead rings at the end of the chamber when the bolt's hard to close, that happens sometimes with a bullet that engages the whole ball seat at once with some powder/alloy/seating depth combinations, I've had the same problem with MTF bullets and my XCB with certain combinations and it will for sure cause a flyer.

Gear

Glad I could help you feel better Ian. LOL!
No, the bulge is in the very middle of the barrel. Starts about 5" from the muzzle, and is about 5" long. Can't cut that out unless I get a SBR tax stamp.
It's just an old barrel I used to make sure the action was bedded in parallel with the barrel channel. I had time to work on it over Christmas break, but no new barrel yet, so I worked on what I could. Course, now there sits a perfectly good rifle with a barrel that can fireform some brass, so why not? Most of the shots taken with this range trip and the last were with raw brass I was fireforming.

I'll scope the barrel and look for lead rings. That sure sounds like what I felt when closing the bolt. Next time I go out, I'll stop and scope it as soon as I feel resistance and find out for sure.

[Forrest r]

is this a good time to bring up my tubing boolits again ??
I got told they wouldn't work [I'd stick the tubing blah, blah] by everybody but Bullshop the first time I tried to discuss them here.
[shrug]




they are @ 65% exposed super soft lead with a soft copper tubing base and hit @2400 fps easy enough.
they actually work very well with the metford rifling in the 7.7, and the hint of rifling in the 2 groove 303.

I thought for sure the spire point nose would set back under acceleration stress but they must not because the boolits are not off balance when striking the target.
that's with H-322 and a filler.
they produce about the fastest bang/flop on a deer I have ever seen, without tearing up meat when you shoot them through the shoulders.

little girl swiped and stashed a couple hundred of them for her rifle after shooting her second deer with them when she was 13 [I guess she had some foresight]
cause me and the oldest girl have just about shot the rest of the batch of 1,000 we made back then.

Actually you'r right, bullets made from tubing are easy to make & extremely lethal. Wanted to revisit them again myself this year and made a set of swaging dies for an old herter's 9-ton press to make them again. I know copper tubing works, but I wanted to try 22mag & 17hmr brass & 9mm brass also.

Some proto type 30cal (130g & 165g) spire point bullets made from 17hmr brass and with all things a al gc.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/22mag30cal_zps8b0b1105.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/22mag30cal_zps8b0b1105.jpg.html)

Tried some bore rider nosed 30cal's using 9mm cases last year, they didn't do so hot. I believe it was the bore riding nose that failed.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/30caltop_zps9ace9e25.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/30caltop_zps9ace9e25.jpg.html)

The bucket list isn't getting any shorter.
Sorry for the thread stray.

[MBTcustom]

I was thinking that since the base of the bullet is the most important part of the bullet, it should be perfectly flat and square, but actually measuring factory GCs, I found that they were anything but.
the guys who seat their checks and lube with a Lyman lube sizer don't see it much because they use the base of the bullet to stamp the check flat and get a pretty good base, but guys like me who use push through dies exclusively, can't get a square base on the check, and we depend on the pressure of the firing event to seat it. However there are all manner of things that can keep that from happening, and the check material can spring back a little and it doesn't take much at all to screw things up.
I made a mandrel that is just a couple ten thousandths of an inch larger than the GC shank of the bullet, put it in the mill (a drill press would work as well), put a check on the tip, and bumped it lightly on a flat steel surface while the spindle was running. This made the checks a perfect fit for the bullet shanks, and made it so that the light pressure on the base of the bullet in the PT sizer is plenty to keep it planted square on the base.
I wasn't sure if this actually made a differance down range, so I tested it, and it appears that it works. The previous range session agrees with this one.
Its just another trick to get a slightly better bullet down the pipe.

[geargnasher]

Seat the checks first, then push them through the push though sizer. I never had a problem doing this. I have even less problem using bullets of my own design with a rebated gas check shank, just snap on the check, roll on the bullet on a case lube pad, and ram it through the sizer. If re-machining checks makes a difference for you, by all means pursue it.

Gear

[btroj]

Ok, I have sized bullets both lubed and dry. It LOOKS like the lubed bullets are less worked by the sizing. The drive bands just looks like they are swaged down rather than wiped.

The fact Gear mentioned rolling on a lube pad made me mention this. Anyone else notice something like this?

Oh, on checks, I just use a simple tool to flair them a bit so they go on easily. I made a push rod for use with Lee type sizers that has a center divot and fits snug in the sizer. Checks get pushed on square and have a sharper edge this way. No bullet base shaving either.

[tomme boy]

Tim, cut it off and pin this to the barrel and put a spot weld on the pin and it will be legal. You can get a 11.5" barrel for the AR15 rifles and do this and it is legal. They sell them already done. Or just make your own a little longer if needed. I would just Back-bore it if it was mine just to play. I know you are up to a challenge. Plus it would be neat to see how much it would lighten the gun up for a hunting rifle. Still having a heavy barrel, but yet bored out to lighten it up?????

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Flash_Hider_p/bp1017.htm

[MBTcustom]

I always seat the checks first Ian. If not, hydraulic action forces lube under the check.
But with my bullets, even after doing that, there are discrepancies, that are able to be measured on the bullets at the bench and observed on target at the range.
Im all about doing whatever I can at the bench to make a more accurate bullet. I hate unexplained fliers that turn a 1" group into a 1.5" group.
As you can see in the previous pictures, it didn't make a big differance. But it made a noticible differance none the less.
The check prep was the only differance in the loads between the first two groups I posted.
Works for me.

[MBTcustom]

Tim, cut it off and pin this to the barrel and put a spot weld on the pin and it will be legal. You can get a 11.5" barrel for the AR15 rifles and do this and it is legal. They sell them already done. Or just make your own a little longer if needed. I would just Back-bore it if it was mine just to play. I know you are up to a challenge. Plus it would be neat to see how much it would lighten the gun up for a hunting rifle. Still having a heavy barrel, but yet bored out to lighten it up?????

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Flash_Hider_p/bp1017.htm

Tommy, This rifle was designed for shooting from a bench. If I wanted a hunting rifle, I'd screw a featherweight barrel on it and bed it in a laminated Boydes stock.
No, this rifle was build for the same purpose as the others that Gear Brad Larry and R5R have: just to see what can be done with a rifle that's designed for reducing human error to a minimum and providing the bullet the best chance for survival.
This GC test is a case in point. There is no way I would have seen the differance if I wasn't able to shoot pretty close to MOA with the test load.
Same goes for anything we are testing, be it lube, alloy, or what have you.

I already have a replacement barrel bought and paid for. In the mean time, it's really nice to have a spare barrel hanging around. This one is definitely damaged, but it's not too shabby as is. Hate to ruin it completely just for giggles ya know?

[cbrick]

Sizing the checks to a perfectly flat fit against the bullet base is an accuracy aid. If the check is crimped on at any angle off center there is little need for a perfect crown. If the shank is too large for a slip fit of the check odds are great the check will not crimp on square to the bullet base. I've been doing this 20 years or more for match ammo. Scroll down to post #9 in the following link from 2006.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?10429-pushing-a-banana-thriu-a-keyhole!!&highlight=pushing+banana+thriu+keyhole%21%21

Rick

[MBTcustom]

I had heard you had done something similar Rick. Same concept.
Nothing new under the Sun.
This really isn't rocket science fellers. It's just making good, reliable, consistent ammo.
Just like with neck turning, if you seat all your checks and check them for squareness, and just throw the bad ones in a pile, it's very similar.
my problem is, by the time my bullets get to the point they need a GC, half of them have already been culled. The GC is the most expensive part of the cast bullet, and I don't like the one thing that allows me to push fast, also being the thing that will keep me from realizing full potential with my groups.

[Pilgrim]

It amazes me that the prime movers of this thread have so much tenacity ! I can't decide if I was just lucky, or ?? I've posted my results on this site with my .358 before, but here goes again, FWIW. My .358 is a Douglas barreled BLR, I believe the twist is 1:12. I've used exactly 1 boolit in this rifle, the RCBS 35-200. Being somewhat lazy re:load development, I sized with a .360 sizer to ensure little to no boolit damage during sizing. Before knowing about FWFL, in various rifles I had tried the RCBS rifle lube, the old black Lyman lube, probably others. Again I don't recall all of the lubes tried. Then I heard about Veral Smith and bought his booklet. Hence, LBT Blue (hard) found it's way into my lubrisizer. I started using a hair dryer to heat the sizer at 1st, then eventually I bought a lubrisizer heater. I had immediate success in the rifle with the above combination. A .358 Win. with a 213 gr. boolit should get upwards of 2500 fps, right? I mean jacketed bullets will do that. Right? I began to fool around with different medium speed powders to find the combination of powder, BHN, sizing to give me the planned velocity, 2500 fps, with acceptable hunting accuracy (1.5" @ 100 yds). The powder that clicked was VV N135. Of course, it had to be the most expensive powder around here. I have a pretty good stash of WW metal, linotype, and dead soft lead, plus a fair amount of 95-5 solder chunks, so lazy kicked in again, and I decided on WW + 2% alloy as a good starting point. I don't want a bunch of different alloys around as I'm bound to screw it up and zig when I shoulda zagged. GC's cover up a whole bunch of sins so I use them in all rifle loads and feel guilty when I don't use them in pistol loads cause they've always helped me with accuracy with CB's. Anyway my alloy for everything is the above mix, air cooled with a BHN of ~14/15. This combo gives me 2430fps, 1.5" accuracy @100 yds, and expands well in both elk and moose without shedding much weight. Not much fooling around to get here and I consider that velocity, with that boolit out of my .358 to be HV. I love this thread and will continue to read it, but is it OK if I feel guilty ?? Pilgrim

[MBTcustom]

I consider that true HV results pilgrim.
I have experienced similar from my 358 Winchester Sako AV, but I was shooting 25 shot groups and getting about 2.5" IIRC (bout the same size as a Copenhagen can top.
Same bullet BTW. Larry Gibson sent me 100 of those lubed with javelina about three years ago. Really great bullet!
I envy your use of VV powder. Always heard that was good stuff.

For the record, Cbrick sent me a bunch of RCBS 35-250-FN at the exact same time I was given the 35-200-FN. I shot both side by side in my 358 1-14 twist @ 2000FPS and concluded the 200 the superior bullet in that rifle. Since then, I have come to the conclusion that the 250 would have done better if I had pushed it to HV. I don't think a 250gr cast bullet is properly stabilized at sub 2K FPS speeds. I need to retest that.

[geargnasher]

I had heard you had done something similar Rick. Same concept.
Nothing new under the Sun.
This really isn't rocket science fellers. It's just making good, reliable, consistent ammo.
Just like with neck turning, if you seat all your checks and check them for squareness, and just throw the bad ones in a pile, it's very similar.
my problem is, by the time my bullets get to the point they need a GC, half of them have already been culled. The GC is the most expensive part of the cast bullet, and I don't like the one thing that allows me to push fast, also being the thing that will keep me from realizing full potential with my groups.

If that's all there is to it, how come you ditched the 10 twist XCB barrel?

Gear

[cbrick]

If that's all there is to it, how come you ditched the 10 twist XCB barrel? Gear

Why does or why should that be . . . "If that's all there is to it"? Is there any reason that it couldn't be . . . Part of?

Rick

[geargnasher]

Never said that precision couldn't be a part of it, but it's handy to know what things MUST be precision and which, well, not so much. I'm just razzing Tim because like most everyone else who tries it, he had difficulty holding any sort of reasonable group size in his ten-twist rifle past something like 2K fps.....and all the precision in the world in the areas that don't matter so much didn't help him one bit, or very little. He says is isn't rocket science, and it's all about good, consistent ammo, which is very true, but if it isn't "good" and "consistent" where it needs to be, you're pharting in the breeze trying to get really good HV groups.

Gear

[45 2.1]

............ if it isn't "good" and "consistent" where it needs to be, you're pharting in the breeze trying to get really good HV groups. Gear

And therein lies the crux of the matter.

[geargnasher]

It amazes me that the prime movers of this thread have so much tenacity ! I can't decide if I was just lucky, or ?? I've posted my results on this site with my .358 before, but here goes again, FWIW. My .358 is a Douglas barreled BLR, I believe the twist is 1:12. I've used exactly 1 boolit in this rifle, the RCBS 35-200. Being somewhat lazy re:load development, I sized with a .360 sizer to ensure little to no boolit damage during sizing. Before knowing about FWFL, in various rifles I had tried the RCBS rifle lube, the old black Lyman lube, probably others. Again I don't recall all of the lubes tried. Then I heard about Veral Smith and bought his booklet. Hence, LBT Blue (hard) found it's way into my lubrisizer. I started using a hair dryer to heat the sizer at 1st, then eventually I bought a lubrisizer heater. I had immediate success in the rifle with the above combination. A .358 Win. with a 213 gr. boolit should get upwards of 2500 fps, right? I mean jacketed bullets will do that. Right? I began to fool around with different medium speed powders to find the combination of powder, BHN, sizing to give me the planned velocity, 2500 fps, with acceptable hunting accuracy (1.5" @ 100 yds). The powder that clicked was VV N135. Of course, it had to be the most expensive powder around here. I have a pretty good stash of WW metal, linotype, and dead soft lead, plus a fair amount of 95-5 solder chunks, so lazy kicked in again, and I decided on WW + 2% alloy as a good starting point. I don't want a bunch of different alloys around as I'm bound to screw it up and zig when I shoulda zagged. GC's cover up a whole bunch of sins so I use them in all rifle loads and feel guilty when I don't use them in pistol loads cause they've always helped me with accuracy with CB's. Anyway my alloy for everything is the above mix, air cooled with a BHN of ~14/15. This combo gives me 2430fps, 1.5" accuracy @100 yds, and expands well in both elk and moose without shedding much weight. Not much fooling around to get here and I consider that velocity, with that boolit out of my .358 to be HV. I love this thread and will continue to read it, but is it OK if I feel guilty ?? Pilgrim

Don't feel guilty, you have the right combination of fit, alloy, a good barrel, and you found the powder and velocity to optimize the system to your needs. Maybe you got lucky, maybe you know exactly why the bullet you chose works so well in the typical 358 throat, why your alloy choice both shoots accurately with that powder and delivers the goods on game where other choices may not, maybe you don't. Either way, it worked, didn't it?

Gear

[runfiverun]

I had to somewhat modify my saeco 250gr boolit to fit my 358 win ruger hawkeye a bit better.
it too went right to jacketed loads and right to the top end without difficulty.
I size to 358, and use some german made 308 brass marked GGG that I found in the brass bucket at the range.
I backed the load down from 50 grs to 49 because that was about all the recoil I wanted in that light of a rifle, even though the 50gr load was slightly more accurate.
my whole trick to accuracy with this rifle is that I neck size the brass with a 38 special taper crimp die. [shrug]

[MBTcustom]

Never said that precision couldn't be a part of it, but it's handy to know what things MUST be precision and which, well, not so much. I'm just razzing Tim because like most everyone else who tries it, he had difficulty holding any sort of reasonable group size in his ten-twist rifle past something like 2K fps.....and all the precision in the world in the areas that don't matter so much didn't help him one bit, or very little. He says is isn't rocket science, and it's all about good, consistent ammo, which is very true, but if it isn't "good" and "consistent" where it needs to be, you're pharting in the breeze trying to get really good HV groups.

Gear

Actually it was 1950 FPS.
The old barrel was just a Remington factory barrel that the customer wasn't happy with (hmmmm, wonder if there was a reason for that?).
I used it because it was all I could afford. (Turns out Gunsmithing doesn't pay nearly as well as people claim, especially when your every penny is spent getting OTHER people to be on the cutting edge).
Now I finally have scraped up enough money for a barrel of known quality, and we'll see if the barrel has anything to do with the problems I was experiencing or not.
Seeing as how I used a different barrel that was also of questionable quality, and the speed I was able to shoot went up 400fps, I highly suspect the old Remington takeoff was the culprit.
Also, I was shooting my original batch of HXP 68, which in a side by side comparison yesterday showed itself to be sub standard. (Thanks to Eutectic for the tip on using the 358 Winchester die as an intermediate forming die!)
Also, I was shooting 50/50 bullets both water dropped and heat treated, but because of the issues listed above, I never could see any pattern of success/failure so I learned nothing about how to manipulate the alloy (how could I?).

Now that I have a solid rifle to shoot, I can start trying to observe cause and effect, and I KNOW it's not the rifle throwing me a failure placebo.

How does all that sound?

[Nrut]

I've had minor trouble with the miniscule Cu rings after seating GC in the 308. If you get a ridge on the shank they really like to go on crooked. I've annealed a bunch of checks but haven't loaded anymore 308 in a year, still got 2 jugs loaded. Maybe I need to give it some exercise.
If you are talking about a ridge around the base of the bullet, NOE made two tools to address that problem..
One was a chamfering type tool that fits in your shell holder and the other was a chamfering cutter that you chuck in your hand held drill..
I don't know if he still makes them..

[dtknowles]

Never said that precision couldn't be a part of it, but it's handy to know what things MUST be precision and which, well, not so much. I'm just razzing Tim because like most everyone else who tries it, he had difficulty holding any sort of reasonable group size in his ten-twist rifle past something like 2K fps.....and all the precision in the world in the areas that don't matter so much didn't help him one bit, or very little. He says is isn't rocket science, and it's all about good, consistent ammo, which is very true, but if it isn't "good" and "consistent" where it needs to be, you're pharting in the breeze trying to get really good HV groups.

Gear

Actually, I think it is a lot like rocket science. A lot of theory, a good bit of tribal knowledge and never enough testing. I would rather blow it up on the test stand than on the way to orbit. More than one way to get to space but you have to pay the piper one way or the other.

Tim

[btroj]

Yep, testing. Lots of testing. What testing are you doing?

I am working with a variety of powders and pushing my alloy to see where it's limits are. I have a few more powders to try and that means a few hundred more rounds need to be fired.

This is exactly why I keep saying it will take 1500 to 2000 rounds to really get a handle on things.

If all goes well I will learn more tomorrow, it all depends on the weather.

[MBTcustom]

Good luck Brad.
What powders are you trying?

[btroj]

Re15,17,and 19. Have decided 19 is a bit slow, it won't get much over 2600 fps. 15 is a bit fast, the pressure is up there but it seems to be decent so far. 17 should be the right fit. Pressure will get over 50K PSI easily but it should get closer to 2900 fps before maxing out.

That, plus trying some alloy manipulation, will take a bit of shooting. I generally only shoot 60 or so per trip so it can take 3 trips to really test a powder. First one to get a general feel for charges, second to narrow it down more, and a third to really nail things down.

[MBTcustom]

Yeah, that's about how many I shoot (when I can get to the range that is).
You know, when I first started this project, I made 50 cases. Didn't take me long to realize that was just not going to cut it.
Next batch I made 75 and that was better, but still not enough.
Finally, last time, I was given a whole box of 30-06 brass of various makes by a benevolent soul at work, and I found 100 of the same make and year and turned them all into XCB brass. Figured sure I was set, but preparing for this last range session, I searched high and low for the rest of my brass so I could test my house alloy, and all I found was one Baggie with 12 cases left in it. I went and counted what I had loaded, and sure enough, I had used all of it again! (Incidentally, that's why I wound up taking the old HXP 68 brass to the range along with the SL 43 and seeing the side by side comparison between the two.)
i thought Bjornb was just really gung ho for making brass in batches of 300, but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that that is a really good idea.

Large batches of brass, and large batches of bullets is the way to go for this sort of thing.
Over Christmas, I cast entire AMMO CANS full of bullets from each mold I own, and when I was done, I stashed my lead pot and figured "now I'm set".
Hmmmmm, not quite. I'm actually running low on XCB bullets (I give away a bunch of samples) and now that I've gotten some results from linotype, I'm going back to standard COWW based alloys to see if I can get the same results.
I had a limited number of bullets made of Cbrick style alloy, and they sure seemed to work very well. Next time I go out, most of my bullets will be made of that alloy (95.6/2.2/2.2 AKA COWW + 2% tin). That stuff is tough as nails. If using a Star sizer, you better run the bullets through within 3 hours of casting them, or your press handle will look like a spaghetti noodle by the time you get through.

One thing I noticed was the relative difficulty of pushing different alloys through a Lee sizer after they were aged for 3 weeks.
Linotype slips through like butter.
50/50 is "grippy" and feels almost abrasive (I assume this is antimony inclusions on the surface of the bullet).
95.6/2.2/2.2 is kind of in between. Very tough, and mildly "abrasive" (it's hard to describe the feel. just seems like it doesn't glide on the die like Linotype does)
#2 alloy was smooth enough, but tough as nails.

I wanted to see if there was a difference in the engraving pressure as the bullets engraved the rifling, so I made a push through die out of a piece of 30 caliber barrel and cut the lead in angle with the XCB reamer. This allowed me to push the bullets through the lead and fully engrave the driving bands of the bullet.
Oddly, I could feel no difference in the amount of pressure it took to engrave the different bullets with the "rifling die". They all felt exactly the same.
However, different alloys were damaged more or less by the rifling after engraving.

[btroj]

I have lots of bullets aging but only 130 cases or so. I don't tent to load a bunch of anything ahead of time so my brass is generally empty. I will make more cases as time allows but I fell that around 200 will let me do all I need to do.

Now bullets, I want to get another 2 K cast up and aging. Those are far more important to me in large numbers. Very large numbers.

[geargnasher]

I shot the same 20 XCB cases for a year, last I remember they'd all been fired around 15 times. Also have a batch of 10 with thin necks that were fired about half a dozen times. Maybe I should make some more?

Gear

[MBTcustom]

Well I would hope so for all the time you spent figuring out how to get rid of donuts! Most intensely scrutinized and prepped brass in history!
LOL!
:kidding:

[geargnasher]

Yeah, it's such a PITA I haven't even shot the thing in months. I've pretty much decided to buy a tight-necked reamer and push the chamber out to '06, I'm really tired of screwing with it.

Gear

[Pilgrim]

Sorry for sticking another thought in here. Hope it's OK. I'll try to make it short !

Laying in bed last night I couldn't get to sleep for pondering this pile of CB facts that have been thrown around. I came up with some thoughts that might help us sort out cause and effect in our results. I am going to assume a GC boolit with the GC on straight. The boolit is also at least .001 over groove. If the barrel is good, no oval bore, then .001 is good enuf. If not then think .002 over groove The boolit is NOT a bore rider.

With the boolit fully into the barrel it can't be deformed as long as it isn't sliding. The sliding can be prevented if the BHN is high enuf, so for now lets ignore BHN. We need to find a way to get the boolit into the barrel sans any deformation, gas cutting, etc. If we assume the 1422 x BHN gives us the pressure where the boolit becomes susceptible to deformation, then we need to get the boolit fully engraved before that pressure is reached after ignition. This is the 1st place BHN comes into play. If the BHN is high enough, then we are good to go AS LONG as the pressure rise is slow enuf for us to get the boolit fully into the barrel before the deformation pressure is reached. If the BHN is too low and the deformation pressure is reached before the boolit is fully engraved then you MUST have a boolit that fits the throat to prevent deformation. That is the first tripping point. That is why sometimes we can get good results without going thru pound casts, etc. The faster your powder burns, the higher your BHN needs to be to get the boolit fully engraved and out of the deformation window. One solution we can use to prevent deformation of our boolits is slower powders, one example is 2400 vs. unique. That is why some folks can sometimes get good results with linotype, or water dropped boolits, but not so good with other alloys. Assuming we are using a good lube, the next place we can get deformation is when the boolit exits the muzzle. Again the boolit base needs to be square, and the muzzle pressure is below the BHN x 1422 pressure when the boolit exits. The crown also has to be dead nuts square. Once the boolit is out of the barrel, then we get into Larry Gibsons centrifigal pressure deformation region. Again, now the boolit BHN AND barrel twist rate drive this deformation region that exists between muzzle and target.

Then I think I was drained of thinking juices and went to sleep. Whatcha think of my bedtime thoughts?

[45 2.1]

^^^^^^^^ that dog don't hunt............................. Most of that happens BEFORE it gets engraved in the barrel fully.

[btroj]

Did learn a few things today. I learned that Pete is NUTS. It was 32 degrees, overcast- almost foggy, and breezy. In short, it was COLD. Gear wouldn't have gotten out of bed today.
Did get 55 new cases fireformed. No real good groups as it was too cold to care. After 3 shots my hand was cold enough that I decided to just play around and get back home.

Pilgrim, listen to what Bob said. Think about the time from ignition to the bullet being fully engraved a bit more. Lots of things happen in that time frame. How they happen is what we need to control. The alloy needs to be matched to the pressure curve.

[MBTcustom]

Yeah, it's such a PITA I haven't even shot the thing in months. I've pretty much decided to buy a tight-necked reamer and push the chamber out to '06, I'm really tired of screwing with it.

Gear

30-06 is never a mistake. Seems like the XCB is only good to 3000fps anyway. I debated chambering in 30-06 myself, but I like the XCB. Once I learned how to make the brass, it's not so painful, but there's a process that needs to be adhered to, and the rule of garbage in=garbage out applies. I started with junky brass and wasted a bunch of lead with it.

Brad, good effort. Leave the shooting in sub freezing temps to the crazy people.

Pilgrim, I don't think you quite understand Larry's method, or the method in this thread. No matter what method you personally choose to pursue, the fact remains that success or failure is realized in the first inch of rifling. The rest of the barrel is just there to allow pressure to build and protect the bullet as it was engraved good or bad. It's all about that first inch of barrel no matter what your bullet is wrapped, swaged, or lubed with, no matter what your personal rifle is twisted, no matter what your alloy is.
The first inch is everything, and if you don't either have a barrel that is easier on the bullet, or a bullet that is able to withstand the attack of the rifling somehow, it's just not going to work.

[bhn22]

Damn. I've been bouncing in and out of this thread. Now I have to read the whole damn thing. It sounds like great progress has been made.

[dtknowles]

Yep, testing. Lots of testing. What testing are you doing?

I am working with a variety of powders and pushing my alloy to see where it's limits are. I have a few more powders to try and that means a few hundred more rounds need to be fired.

This is exactly why I keep saying it will take 1500 to 2000 rounds to really get a handle on things.

If all goes well I will learn more tomorrow, it all depends on the weather.

Because of other demands I have not been to the range in three weeks. I hope to test the bullets Bjorn sent me along with some of my own this weekend.

Tim

[btroj]

I understand that. Shooting isn't my job, it is a hobby. Many things come before shooting. I also understand that lots of testing becomes work and not very fun.

Tim, enjoy the shooting. Do what you can, when you can. Just don't go when it is 34, overcast, and windy. Not very fun.

[dtknowles]

I understand that. Shooting isn't my job, it is a hobby. Many things come before shooting. I also understand that lots of testing becomes work and not very fun.

Tim, enjoy the shooting. Do what you can, when you can. Just don't go when it is 34, overcast, and windy. Not very fun.

It was not cold these past few weeks but it was rainy or wet and it seemed better to get some honey do's done.

Tim

[btroj]

We don't get rainy for another month. Then we get mud. I don't like mud.

At least my bullets will have plenty of time to age.

[geargnasher]

It was sunny and 84 F at the long range Sunday, with a 5 mph breeze coming from 11-o'clock. We don't have mud here. To have mud, you have to first have dirt and water. We have rocks and dry.

Gear

[btroj]

Trade you some wet for some rock. Just be forewarned, the wet will also be cold.

[cbrick]

Seems the XCB thread is gone. Again. I clicked the quote button, spent 15 minutes writing a reply and couldn't post it, no thread.

Very tiresome.

Rick

[Bjornb]

Seems the XCB thread is gone. Again. I clicked the quote button, spent 15 minutes writing a reply and couldn't post it, no thread.

Very tiresome.

Rick

VERY tiresome. And I saw nothing in there that was of great controversy. Pretty mild stuff compared to other exchanges I have seen on here.

[btroj]

I agree Bjorn. Weird.
If you don't know then at least it means you didn't ask to have it pulled.

Have you PM'd a mod to see what is up?

[Bjornb]

I sent a PM to Lamar as soon as I saw it was gone. I was the one who got it put BACK, just so there could be 2 threads where guys didn't have to step on each other's toes. Larry just got his new rifle, and I wanted him to be able to post his shooting. I am utterly clueless as to why they pulled it (unless some really crazy stuff got posted that I never saw, I was off the thread maybe 20 minutes before it disappeared).

[cbrick]

I had read to the last post and the worst thing (if it's even bad) I saw was Brad said he didn't want to post in the thread anymore. I clicked on the quote button to answer a question by Tim and by the time I finished typing the thread was gone. Again.

Hope this thread is still there when I hit the post button. :veryconfu

Rick

[btroj]

Hey Rick, it is still here.

[dtknowles]

We don't get rainy for another month. Then we get mud. I don't like mud.

At least my bullets will have plenty of time to age.


The added dirt to the berms and the rain washed a lot of it down under the target holders so you have to stand in the mud to set your targets. If the rain continues the road to the range and the pistol range will be flooded as the Pearl River rises, it actually is the rain north of here that causes the river to flood the range, happens almost every year. The range website has a link to the river water level gauges so you can see how high the river is before heading to the range.

Tim

[cbrick]

Well anyway, here is the post that I tried to make in the XCB thread before it went poof. Maybe Detox and Tim will see it here.


Have you guys tried water quenched magnum birdshot. I first size and seat gas check, next I heat bullets in oven @480 degrees for 1 hour then dump bullets in water to harden. Birdshot has more arsenic than wheel weights and makes bullets very hard @30-35bhn.

Shot doesn't have additional arsenic to make them harder. Shot is dropped and the mfg.'s use arsenic for the simple reason that shot will not drop round without arsenic although it is a Pb/Sb/As alloy and quenched so it I harder. As for heat treating arsenic has a profound effect on the age/strengthening of Pb/Sb alloys but 3/4 of 1% is no better than 1/4 of 1%, adding more does nothing for the HT. Arsenic itself will add minor hardening even if the alloy isn't HT'd simply because it is harder than lead.


Detox,
Nice! Interesting concept HTing with the GC on, what's your reasoning behind that?
No, I never tried it.

Simply because trying to size 30 BHN bullets is very tough on the lubrisizer and very tough on the guy using the lubrisizer. I tried it ONCE and I have the bent Star handle to prove it. Never again. Cast, size & seat checks at your convenience then HT sized bullets with the checks installed. After drying they are lubed in a die .001" larger than the die they were sized with. If desired they can then be loaded and age harden while seated in the brass.

Rick

[35 shooter]

What forum was the xcb thread posted under? Was it cast boolit forum or another one here?
Somehow i missed it and didn't realize it was back. I know it used to be under special projects.
Oh well.

[Mike H]

Disappointing to see it go again,It is the most interesting subject on Cast Boolits.Please bring it back.
Mike.

[MBTcustom]

Well anyway, here is the post that I tried to make in the XCB thread before it went poof. Maybe Detox and Tim will see it here.



Shot doesn't have additional arsenic to make them harder. Shot is dropped and the mfg.'s use arsenic for the simple reason that shot will not drop round without arsenic although it is a Pb/Sb/As alloy and quenched so it I harder. As for heat treating arsenic has a profound effect on the age/strengthening of Pb/Sb alloys but 3/4 of 1% is no better than 1/4 of 1%, adding more does nothing for the HT. Arsenic itself will add minor hardening even if the alloy isn't HT'd simply because it is harder than lead.



Simply because trying to size 30 BHN bullets is very tough on the lubrisizer and very tough on the guy using the lubrisizer. I tried it ONCE and I have the bent Star handle to prove it. Never again. Cast, size & seat checks at your convenience then HT sized bullets with the checks installed. After drying they are lubed in a die .001" larger than the die they were sized with. If desired they can then be loaded and age harden while seated in the brass.

Rick


Your first comment is one of the nuggets that are hidden in this forum. Fascinating fascinating. When I was a kid, my dad told me about the shot towers and how it was made. I tried to do the same thing (ever see a kid pouring molten lead off the roof of his parents house? LOL!) and found just what you said, the shot didn't come out like anything but splatters. I always figured it was because I wasn't high enough, but if what you said was correct, then it was the COWW alloy I was using. Thank you sir! that's been bugging me for years.

So you're saying that adding magnum shot to the alloy is about as good as it gets because .2 % arsenic is all that can contribute to the hardness of the bullets? (please correct me if I misunderstood).

As to your second comment:
Yeah, I didn't think that through all the way. HTed bullet = hard bullets. Duh.

[Hamish]

I'm having a REALLY hard time understanding why entire threads are being given the Uncle Joe treatment instead of having the off base posts excised. If the thread is gone, the controversy is gone? Is that the logic?

Anyone and everyone who read these threads get SOMETHING out of these threads.

(ahem). If you don't like the burnt parts on the edge of your steak, cut the burnt parts off, don't throw the steak away,,,,,,,,

[45 2.1]

Have you guys tried water quenched magnum birdshot.

That alloy and heat treatment has been written about extensively by Frank "Paco" Kelley. He sells a book about his loads also. He has used it to go to full jacketed velocity/accuracy in quite a few firearms.

[geargnasher]

Arsenic is a grain refiner to lead, that's how it works to make it "hard", by reducing grain size, like the difference between OSB and particle board.

Gear

[ballistim]

Have you guys tried water quenched magnum birdshot.

That alloy and heat treatment has been written about extensively by Frank "Paco" Kelley. He sells a book about his loads also. He has used it to go to full jacketed velocity/accuracy in quite a few firearms.

Do you know the title of the book? I'd like to get a hold of it.

[MBTcustom]

All in good time sir! Cu alloys is one of the four methods I want to learn before its all over.
Yes, I am behind, and I beg your pardon, and that of the participants. I've been away getting rid of a stress induced ulcer. Trust me it's better this way! I've got a long weekend coming up and I'll try to catch up.

[tomme boy]

Tim, here you go. We have a bunch of these all over the place.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Dubuque+shot+tower&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=K6PbVJHzB4WbyQTI9oHQBA&ved=0CDAQsAQ

[MBTcustom]

Hey Tomme, good to see ya!

Yes, I know what a shot tower is. Dad wouldn't let me build one, and told me to get off the roof with my lead pot. LOL!

BTW, Did you make any more headway with your rifle?

[btroj]

goodsteel,
Its obvious that you're a might behind the curve...As is toxic, but enhances Pb, Sb, Sn to precipitate harden. As is used in shot production to enable the Pb or Pb Sb to become more spherical.

A little time saving suggestion, increase the Cu or Cu, Sn in your boolits enough and you won't need to heat treat, won't need gas checks, and won't have to worry about barrel leading.


Won't need heat treat or gas checks? Got some targets and chrono data to back that up?

I seem to remember the MI guys using a check design and water droppng the bullets. Not sure who around these parts has done more work with the Cu alloy than them.

Take a look at this link. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

Specific mention is made by Mike to water dropping, a form of heat treating. One of the bullets he mentioned in his comments about the Cu alloys was very similar to this one. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?161563-7mm-Thor-AKA-Ideal-287377-Flat-nose-135-grains/page28

Looks like a check and heat treating might just be a good idea even with the Cu in the alloy.

[.30-06 fan]

can a solid copper round bar be pressed formed into a bullet shape? i wounder how much pressure would be required.

[btroj]

can a solid copper round bar be pressed formed into a bullet shape? i wounder how much pressure would be required.

Ask Barnes

[.30-06 fan]

Ask Barnes


trade secret, i expect .....

[btroj]

Yep, I'm sure it is. Even then is it practical for most of us? I don't own a hydraulic press and I'm sure the dies aren't cheap.

[.30-06 fan]

the die is probably the most tricky part. for smaller bullets like .223 caliber, maybe a 20 ton jack would be enough.

[MBTcustom]

I thought Barnes lathe turned all their bullets.

Regardless, most of us are doing this because it's fun and cost effective. I've made solids on the lathe, and it's neither.

[btroj]

The X-bullet has a formed hollowpoint. The hollow may be lathe turned but the posting would occur following that.

Even if lathe turned it isn't practical for most and certainly isn't a "cast boolit" by any stretch.

[.30-06 fan]

Regardless, most of us are doing this because it's fun and cost effective.


very true. just thinking out aloud.

[.30-06 fan]

in the context of this thread, i thought opening the door of this idea was worth posting, even only if the if the door of the idea was closed very quickly after.

kind of thing ....

[btroj]

Nothing ventured nothing gained. Outside of the box thinking is what is needed to advance the art of shooting cast.

[tomme boy]

Goodsteel, No. Been dealing with a new pistol and health problems.

[45 2.1]

Do you know the title of the book? I'd like to get a hold of it.

Go here:
http://www.leverguns.com/backkupfirstpage.htm

Go down about 2/3 page, in center of page click: "ORDER PACO'S BOOK"

This site has a lot of informative reading...................................

[ballistim]

Go here:
http://www.leverguns.com/backkupfirstpage.htm

Go down about 2/3 page, in center of page click: "ORDER PACO'S BOOK"

This site has a lot of informative reading...................................

Thank-you! I've read some of his writings years ago in the "Sixgunner" newsletter of J.D. Jones & in fact an article by him is what made me get into casting in the first place.

[Nrut]

Popper,
How are you catching your fired bullets to see if they are bent?
Or are you going by the fliers you see on the target?

[TXGunNut]

the die is probably the most tricky part. for smaller bullets like .223 caliber, maybe a 20 ton jack would be enough.

American Rifleman had a nice article about Barnes awhile back but only a few hints about the nuts and bolts and equipment required for making copper bullets. But yes, it involves a very big press and very complex dies, apparently.

[runfiverun]

I guess I should stop in and see how they do it now that ATM owns them.
But back when they were doing them at home they were running CNC machines in the garage, sorting bullets in the kitchen and running the shipping dept. from the front room.
Oh I'm talking about the Barnes family.

[btroj]

Dang man, who don't you know?

Barnes makes a good bullet. Used a bunch overseas.

[runfiverun]

I lived in a good area as a kid in Utah, and got lucky when I moved here to Idaho.
i have had the fortune of hanging out with or meeting people that just happened to make a name for themselves in the gun world.
They were just guy's that happened to like the same things I did at the time. (Shrug)

It may have helped that I happened to win a few shooting trophy's over the years, and run a casting business for a while too..

[dtknowles]

I guess I should stop in and see how they do it now that ATM owns them.
But back when they were doing them at home they were running CNC machines in the garage, sorting bullets in the kitchen and running the shipping dept. from the front room.
Oh I'm talking about the Barnes family.

Who is ATM, do you mean ATK?

Tim

[runfiverun]

Yeah ATM (Atk) my phone won't let me put anything in how I type it.
Unless i do it 3 times.

[Yodogsandman]

So, now that things have slowed a bit on this thread, can someone please explain some more about the first inch or so of boolit travel. Boolit obturation and the forces that are applied and when along the boolits travel. I think I get static fit but, need some help with the dynamic fit.

[roadie]

So, now that things have slowed a bit on this thread a bit, can someone please explain some more about the first inch or so of boolit travel. Boolit obturation and the forces that are applies and when along the boolits travel. I think I get static fit but, need some help with the dynamic fit.


What I've gotten from the thread is that the right powder is needed to prevent/control deformation of the bullet. I think a too fast powder will hit the base too abruptly and possibly bend the bullet or deform the base. I think this is what riveting means...I could easily be wrong.

Can a too fast powder cause an angled base?

As to using a powder that is too slow, I'm not sure how that would apply to the first inch, it would affect the velocity possible if the case capacity isn't what it needs. And the powder selection depends on the chosen alloy, which depends on the needed characteristics of the bullet, as in target shooting or hunting.

I have no idea whether the twist will have a major affect in the first inch of travel, and I don't even want to go there as far as the rest of the bullet's flight goes.

I'm still in the dark about most of it, slowly seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, but I think the powder choice will affect the dynamic fit as in keeping the static fit as close as possible, while maintaining straightness.

[runfiverun]

Powder choice is used to move the boolit into the barrel gently then accelerate it down the barrel faster and faster through gas volume generation. (Pressure)
How far off the lands you set the boolit ( and the bhn ) can influence the powders speed.
Getting things straight is done through case fit.
You then don't have to oversize the boolit and fight riveting of the base.

[303Guy]

I have had boolits riveting between the case mouth and throat entrance. It remained visible because it was with paper patched boolits. The boolit was recoverable because it was with a small charge of fast powder, giving a reasonable pressure but with low muzzle velocity.

[TXGunNut]

Had a post awhile back about hunting applications for this endeavor. This tread has little to do with hunting, IMHO. Most hunting is easily accomplished with boolits under 2000fps, this is a whole 'nuther subject. I suppose if you're hunting mulies, sheep or antelope @ 200 yds plus this thread may have hunting applications for you. For me, this thread is as advertised; HV with cast boolits.
Bring on the range reports and data.
Rhetoric and theory has been well covered here, let's see some hard data.

[geargnasher]

So, now that things have slowed a bit on this thread, can someone please explain some more about the first inch or so of boolit travel. Boolit obturation and the forces that are applied and when along the boolits travel. I think I get static fit but, need some help with the dynamic fit.

Excellent question. There's a lot that goes on there, and exactly what goes on depends on a lot of things, but principally it boils down to how well your static fit is to begin with (nice, centered alignment accomplished with the brass), the rate and amount of pressure the powder puts on the bullet base, how the bullet shape does or does not jive with the throat shape as it first makes solid contact to self align, and how those shape relationships change as the pressure goes up and the bullet gets swaged through the throat.

Alloy composition has a lot to do with how straight the bullet will go into the bore as the metamorphosis takes place. A good bit of metal gets moved around as the bullet squeezes down to the confines of bore/groove, and that takes a lot of force, which is applied to the base by the powder, and the base at that point isn't supported so well and wants to go any which way but straight. We attempt to prevent bullet base deformation by selecting powders that build pressure slowly and combine them with a bullet made of metal which will easily "draw" in a straight line and not take so much pressure to engrave that the relatively unsupported base gets deformed in the process. The alloy has to be tough enough to guide off the leade to center at first, yet plastic enough to squeeze through the restriction without getting wadded up in the neck. That's the "dynamic" part, the metamorphosis of the bullet from its loaded shape to its fired shape, and the "fit" part is how the contact and pressure points between bullet and case and gun are manipulated and timed to achieve the support and guidance necessary for keeping the bullet always straight, always centered through that process.

So how do you pull it off? First, have good static fit, meaning the brass holds the bullet in line with the bore when chambered, and pointing straight ahead at the center of the muzzle crown. Make sure your bullet nose is the right size and taper to resist any mis-alignment during firing. Select a bullet shape that will funnel through the middle of the throat and leade without having any unsupported areas for metal to slump into unevenly. The nose and case neck only have limited strength to support the bullet before pressure rises enough to slam things sideways and obturate the case neck to the confines of the chamber neck, so you want most of the bullet to be supported well and straight by the throat before pressure gets too high. Bullet guidance is sort of handed off from the case neck to the part of the bullet contacting the throat, then to the whole bullet that's contacting land, groove, and throat, and finally just the land and groove contact as the bullet is fully engraved, so you need to use an alloy that engraves easily, a bullet shape that self-centers and is well-supported by the throat, and a powder that pushes in a way that doesn't just splatter the bullet base in all the wrong directions when the primer goes off.

Gear

[runfiverun]

TX.
I'm NOT typing theory I am telling you how I get the results I get.
You have to read what has been written and do it yourself if you want to see results.

Now i sound like Bob.

[btroj]

I have posted results. I haven't shot since then. Well, once but it was windy and cold so no real group shooting was done.

If you really want to learn then grab a rifle, cast some bullets, and go shoot. Run is right, much of what you need to know has been told. It is up to you to apply the knowledge and figure out what the rifle and target are telling you and how to fix it.

I learn far more at the casting, loading, and shooting benches than I do online. That is one area every person in this thread will agree on. Fast twist or slow twist, it doesn't matter until you put lead thru paper.

So Tex, what HV shooting data do you have to share?

[ballistim]

I'm still watching here but unable to do much with arm in sling after surgery, appreciate the posted results, getting antsy with cabin fever, think I'll relax and spend the morning reading a nice peaceful thread again titled
" Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede":wink: ...

[btroj]

I thought you were signing off for a while......[smilie=s:

There IS some good info in that thread, it is just full of bickering way beyond what you read here.

[ballistim]

I thought you were signing off for a while......[smilie=s:

There IS some good info in that thread, it is just full of bickering way beyond what you read here.

I know.. think I've learned to type left handed a little too well, I'll try to read more and type less! Just saying I'm still paying attention here and look forward to your results. Thanks!

[btroj]

Keep up with the rehab. By the time weather lets you shoot you will be ready for at least some limited shooting.
If you have a specific question then ask. I bugged the heck out of a few here via PM for a while. Sometimes what you think you need to know isn't what you needed to know after all.

[ballistim]

Thanks btroj, one good thing that's come out of this is a friend has offered to help with his dump truck & loader to make a backstop and build a concrete bench so I can shoot 100 yds. right at home, plans are to haul in dirt after frost laws lifted here, so my testing will be as often as I can right at home weather permitting, something to look forward to! I'll be PMing as I get into the testing phase, you've all given me a lot to work with already.

Tim

[cbrick]

Thanks btroj, one good thing that's come out of this is a friend has offered to help with his dump truck & loader to make a backstop and build a concrete bench so I can shoot 100 yds. right at home, plans are to haul in dirt after frost laws lifted here, so my testing will be as often as I can right at home weather permitting, something to look forward to! I'll be PMing as I get into the testing phase, you've all given me a lot to work with already. Tim

That is really wonderful, well except for this green with envy thing I got goin on.

Rick

[btroj]

A home range? I am totally jealous. Being able to shoot, go reload ammo, and shoot more.

You are a lucky man.

[ballistim]

Ya'll would be welcome to come shoot anytime! I've done reloading from the tailgate before, even built a little wind block with panels so I could shoot and load to test loads at the range, my outside reloading shed is a short walk from where the bench will need to be, have considered making a lean-to with a roof & 3 sides at the bench so I can put up a portable loading set-up right there, something I've always wanted to do. Sounds crazy, but another friend who does excavation tried to talk me into making an underground range using culvert pipe 100 yds. with an underground bench area with overhead lighting in the tunnel and a cable to run targets back and forth to an underground target area so it would be enclosed to shoot day or night in any weather. Wouldn't that be something! Didn't take too long to figure out I'm in the wrong tax bracket for such an endeavor...

[leadman]

30-06 fan, Elmer Keith and his 2 buds worked with lathe turned copper bullets in the 1930s, even went so far as to turn grooves in the bearing surface of the bullet like the newer Barnes. Elmer said they worked great but would be to expensive to produce so the idea was dropped.
There is another company, Cutter Bullets that make copper bullets.

Back on the cast boolits I think I might run some boolits thru my RCBS case Gauge to see what the run-out is. I do know that the Lee 230-5R boolit bends very easily from the mold.

[cbrick]

Didn't take too long to figure out I'm in the wrong tax bracket for such an endeavor...

Good thing. No sense in making me hate you . . . [smilie=1: Jealousy is an ugly thing!

Rick

[btroj]

If you had an underground range I would work to get you banned. We don't need that kind of reminder of what could be!

In time you could have a nice little shooting shack to block wind and rain. It would provide shade too.

Damn, I am jealous.

[ballistim]

Good thing. No sense in making me hate you . . . [smilie=1: Jealousy is an ugly thing!

Rick

I hear ya, am counting my blessings for sure, would've done this sooner, just waited to make sure I was done raising Angus steers for beef in the pasture, would've been hard to do otherwise, not fun trying to chase the cows around to clear a shooting path! ;-) if I was rich I could do both with the underground range idea...

I apologize for going off subject, mods please pull any of these posts to keep the thread streamlined and on subject.

Tim

[btroj]

This sort of off topic is good. It lets us all dream of what could be.
You can still raise cattle, it just means another fence to cordon off the shooting lane. Never knew of a cattle guy who couldn't fence.......

[ballistim]

If you had an underground range I would work to get you banned. We don't need that kind of reminder of what could be!

In time you could have a nice little shooting shack to block wind and rain. It would provide shade too.

Damn, I am jealous.

I'll just keep it to myself if it ever happens & bring the targets out in the sunlight to take pictures of.

[btroj]

Oh no you don't. When the range is done we NEED photos. This kind of thing is what we all dream of.

[ballistim]

This sort of off topic is good. It lets us all dream of what could be.
You can still raise cattle, it just means another fence to cordon off the shooting lane. Never knew of a cattle guy who couldn't fence.......

Right! I actually have 4 fenced sections & rotated with cattle (+ Jersey dairy cow), goats, & horses. Range area is the longest part of the pasture. I work way too many hours now & kids grown up & moved, too hard to do the old homestead duties I once could pull off. I no longer have anything but my trusted Newfoundland to keep the coyotes away, he does a fine job.

[cbrick]

winelover (John) on the forum lives 15 minutes from me. He has a 100 yard range 5 feet outside the door to his basement loading room. It's where I've been getting some trigger time.

Rick

[btroj]

I drive 25 minutes to the range......

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/sad/big-tears.gif (http://www.sherv.net/)

[winelover]

Nothing fancy, just a pile of river sand.

Winelover




130853

[ballistim]

Oh no you don't. When the range is done we NEED photos. This kind of thing is what we all dream of.

I have about 8-10 years until retirement so it could still happen if my O/T keeps up and investments pan out, streamlining my activities as I've aged along with eye surgery (cancer) and now the shoulder has been a real slap in the face to quit trying to do everything as I often work 60-80 hour weeks now in a very physically challenging job in all weather conditions, and like many of you, I'm not getting any younger. Things I used to do myself often make more sense to pay to have done, I figure what I get paid by the hour and decide how much satisfaction I'll get out of doing something myself.
I am really looking at everything in a different light the closer I get to retirement to set myself up to be able to do what I love best, shooting/reloading/casting, hunting deer, fishing for walleye in spring, ice fishing in winter, and playing guitar at the farmer's mkt & micro-brewery. I'd like to get back into muzzle loading competition, quit after eye surgery, actually lost several seasons of shooting & hunting, intend to make up for lost time.
Now you all know me a little better, wish I lived closer to some of you as I like to shoot with others at times and need to rejoin a local club, let two memberships lapse while dealing with the eye surgery and cancer. I've been cancer-free since 2010, so everything else can be worked out.
Sorry again for having too much to say here!

Tim

[cbrick]

hehe, yeah nothing fancy. The fancy part is the 5 feet outside the loading room door.

Rick

[ballistim]

deleted

[winelover]

hehe, yeah nothing fancy. The fancy part is the 5 feet outside the loading room door.

Rick

It's all in the planning.

Winelover

[cbrick]

It's all in the planning. Winelover

Yep it sure is. I also planned for much the same thing. My banker is still getting a belly laugh out of that idea. Turned out when I retired I could either by enough land for that OR I could buy a roof over my head. Banker said pick "ONE".

Rick

[btroj]

You needed a different banker......

[cbrick]

Wasn't the banker even if I poke fun at him. It was buying what I could with what I had and no payments. Could have bought a lot more real estate than I did but then there would be those pesky monthly payments.

Rick

[btroj]

Ah, a wise decision. So unusual these days.

[runfiverun]

I'm working on the no payment plan thing too.
I'll be totally broke but owe nothing if this stupid oil thing ever turns around.
I have laid in just about everything I need to keep on shooting and fishing for the next 20 years.
Now it's finish paying off the house and buy a new truck to see me through.
So,so close....
i could do both in 4 years if I can keep working.

[ballistim]

House payment is my only debt, credit card used like debit card, balance paid monthly, no interest & use rewards points for reloading supplies. Still in process of acquiring what I need for retirement though.

[btroj]

Retire? Maybe in 15 years! I will be in good shape for it, financially at least.
Getting the kid thru school is my big expense right now but her graduating with no loans sets her up pretty well.

[alamogunr]

Wasn't the banker even if I poke fun at him. It was buying what I could with what I had and no payments. Could have bought a lot more real estate than I did but then there would be those pesky monthly payments.

Rick


I'm working on the no payment plan thing too.
I'll be totally broke but owe nothing if this stupid oil thing ever turns around.
I have laid in just about everything I need to keep on shooting and fishing for the next 20 years.
Now it's finish paying off the house and buy a new truck to see me through.
So,so close....
i could do both in 4 years if I can keep working.





House payment is my only debt, credit card used like debit card, balance paid monthly, no interest & use rewards points for reloading supplies. Still in process of acquiring what I need for retirement though.




Retire? Maybe in 15 years! I will be in good shape for it, financially at least.
Getting the kid thru school is my big expense right now but her graduating with no loans sets her up pretty well.

It makes a big difference to retire w/no debt. We worked hard and didn't start saving until both sons were out of school. Both have doctorates and are established. SWMBO has been retired 10 years. I've been retired almost 9. I won't say they have been the best years of my life but they are not the worst by a long way.

Now our only debt is small payments on a line of credit from the bank that we use to cover large, unforeseen expenses. We do this to avoid withdrawing in excess of MRD's. Avoid excess taxes that way. An example was my new truck to replace the 15 year old pickup that I was driving. I didn't absolutely need it but I wanted to enjoy it while I could. Same way with an occasional special gun. She has her special wants too.

[Hannibal]

Shooting results posted link is here :
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,515.msg5340.html#msg5340

Thank you, Sir!

[Yodogsandman]

So, as the boolit travels through the barrel from the leade, we have lube, powder residue, speed of acceleration and antimonial wash acting for or against us. Anything else to pay attention to?

[btroj]

You forgot about how the bullet deforms under acceleration from the pressure curve.

[Yodogsandman]

Are you saying that boolits deform on the sides from the rifling during rotation? Or, the lead displaced from entering the rifling? Or, on the base from gases?

[runfiverun]

Entering the throat and from acceleration forces when the boolit is being shoved forward while it is trying to start spinning.
This is where the slow twist helps you, you are not cutting into the bearing surface as sharply.

If you have the boolit gently squared up in the rifling and then accelerate it you can gain even more velocity as evidenced by the breech seating Bjorn done.

[btroj]

Bullets also change shape some on firing. I have many bullets where I can find a fired bullet and th rifling engages far further up the nose than it looks like it would. I bet that I could measure those bullets and find that they are a bit shorter after firing than before.
Ask 44man about bullet slump

[geargnasher]

Are you saying that boolits deform on the sides from the rifling during rotation? Or, the lead displaced from entering the rifling? Or, on the base from gases?

All three, particularly the the second and third, unless you use a really hard alloy and slow powder in which case you only deal with item two. The first is called "skid", and CAN be a factor as R5R pointed out. The second is what I call "swage" as the bullet gets sized by the throat and metal moves where you direct it to by bullet design and powder burn rate (and some other things like amount of jump and alloy composition, and even lube viscosity), three is the real bear. The nose actually can get expanded from the gases if the alloy is right and the powder burn rate is right, and item Two provides enough resistance. This can be good for item One because the nose can get blow up into the rifling and formed into it rather than having to engrave and twist the nose separate from the base as the base is jamming though the taper of the leade. It's all about timing and what method you use, there are several ways to do this and you can't mix/match from one method to the other with these three things.

Gear

[redbullitt]

I have been casting about a year now. I wish I would have gotten into when I started shooting lol. Entirely new dimension to reloading/shooting! Most all of my casting is done with a mix of scrap range lead and wheel weights.

My first attempts were with a 300 whisper bolt action. I tried everything to get this rifle to be where I thought it should be... Mind you i had only shot jacketed at this point. With those i could pretty much stuff whatever into the case and it would shoot under 2 MOA lol. I quickly learned this was not the case for casting. I learned a lot working with this rifle; at first I was getting 12 inch groups at 50 yards with everything lol, but i have finally gotten it sorted out and the rifle will shoot subsonic at around 3 inches every time at 100 yards with a 247g NOE bullet. Properly sizing and prepping the brass was the biggest difference with this load. Careful case prep, belling, and chamfering did the most good for me.

After that I went to a 45 70 and got good results muck quicker since I had a better grasp on fitting the bullets to the bore, lubes, sizing and all that good stuff. 405g plain base at 1500 FPS from my guide gun would consistently get 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards. Water dropping the cast boolits seemed to be the key here.

The fastest cast load I have so far that shoots well is with my Ruger scout rifle in 308. I hope to get a deer with it next season. Velocity is just under 1900 FPS. Bullet is a ranch dog 165 gas check model. After a lot of trial and error I can get pretty consistent 2 MOA groupings from the rifle, always less than 3 MOA unless I really screw up somewhere in the process. Seating depth and lube seemed to be the biggest contributor to this load. I made sure to get the gas check and lube all in the neck of the cartridge, not down in too deep. Also, the overall length is such that the bullet just barely engraves the rifling. For lube I wound up using a mix of paraffin wax, bees wax, high temp grease, and a touch of liquid alox. Very happy with the results and hopefully get it to be a bit better as I learn more.

Next endeavor will be a big bore subsonic round. Possibly a big big 45/70 boolit, or a 50/70 with an even bigger chunk of lead. Hope to set up the rifle to make long range shots on steel, hopefully out to 800 yards or better. Not high speed by any means, but still different and should be a blast!

For what its worth, I seem to get the best easiest accuracy from bullets that are flat nosed with a lot of bearing surface. Bore riders and long pointy cast bullets are not my strong suite yet...

[ballistim]

All three, particularly the the second and third, unless you use a really hard alloy and slow powder in which case you only deal with item two. The first is called "skid", and CAN be a factor as R5R pointed out. The second is what I call "swage" as the bullet gets sized by the throat and metal moves where you direct it to by bullet design and powder burn rate (and some other things like amount of jump and alloy composition, and even lube viscosity), three is the real bear. The nose actually can get expanded from the gases if the alloy is right and the powder burn rate is right, and item Two provides enough resistance. This can be good for item One because the nose can get blow up into the rifling and formed into it rather than having to engrave and twist the nose separate from the base as the base is jamming though the taper of the leade. It's all about timing and what method you use, there are several ways to do this and you can't mix/match from one method to the other with these three things.

Gear

This post along with a few others I've read recently is making things fall into place in my understanding of what takes place in the bullet's path from throat to rifling along with the importance of the correct combination of alloy, powder speed, and design/size of the projectile at this critical point. I really think I'm starting to get what you've been trying to tell us here!

Tim

[Sticky]

This post along with a few others I've read recently is making things fall into place in my understanding of what takes place in the bullet's path from throat to rifling along with the importance of the correct combination of alloy, powder speed, and design/size of the projectile at this critical point. I really think I'm starting to get what you've been trying to tell us here!

TimI am as well... been following this thread to prepare for loading some casts in my AR308s and following with great interest. I have learned a lot about what happens when you pull the trigger in the last couple of pages, thanks to all for the contributions!

I know, only bench and range time will lead to success, but understanding the theory for me, goes a long way in achieving success in life and should make the journey a little less frustrating.. lol

One mentioned turned boolits earlier.. also something I will be pursuing with a buddy that runs a CNC shop. Going to start working on them in the next week or so for the 300AAC, perhaps the 308 and also the 223. Don't think the 223 will be cost effective, none will be cost effective compared to casting scrounged wheel weights, but an interesting diversion and dabbling into projectiles nonetheless.. :bigsmyl2:

[Yodogsandman]

This is all great information! Thanks for passing it along, guys!

I sure wish I could recover a boolit to actually see what's going on. I can now picture all the different phases in my head. Proof would be with a fired boolit, though. My club range makes any recovery impossible. Two feet of mulch on the berms! Somewhere they read that it reduced ricochets in the winter. Anyone know how far a boolit would travel in the snow? .... got plenty.

[runfiverun]

Snow is very effective at stopping boolits and doing it without too much damage.
Light snow is best, but the boolits travel further in it.

I have been been picking at my 7 twist 300 b.o a little here and there.
hopefully the mold I have for it is fitted better finally.
I have been slowly working it over for a better throat fit.
I'm shooting for 1900 fps with the 140gr boolit.
I may have to re-design the front drive band and have tom cut me a new mold to get there ordering one thing and getting another (from another maker) set me back pretty far.

[geargnasher]

..... have tom cut me a new mold to get there ordering one thing and getting another (from another maker) set me back pretty far.

Don't I know it. Tom imposes some design limits that are frustrating at times but he'll cut you exactly what you ask him to, and put the + or - tolerances centered where you want.

Ballistim and Yodog, if you DO recover some low-antimony bullets fired at relatively high velocity, you might be surprised how far the engraving marks and groove fillout go up the nose compared to a bullet simply pushed through the gun from the muzzle with a rod, or fired into catch medium with a squib load. This shape-shift is why some of the silhouette designs, with short bearing length, shoot better when you plan on bumping the nose up from behind at launch by using the right alloy and powder combination.

The BPCR guys figured out 150 years ago to start undersized and use the powder to slug-up the bullets to groove size, that's STILL the most accurate way to do it with soft lead and black powder. To pull it off in a .308, a certain level of engraving resistance in the leade has to be present to sort of "hold" the forward part of the driving area as the pressure on the base shifts metal through the core and up to the nose a little. The so-called "slow twist crowd" is doing everything they can to prevent this sort of deformation from happening by using exceptionally tough bullets and selecting powders which cannot bump the nose. So far that's getting decent groups, but not the really fine groups that can be had by setting up the alloy, powder, and bullet shape with a little wiggle room so the rifle's barrel becomes a precision swaging device. I look forward to someone putting the two things together. Brad has started doing this by taking his 12" twist to 2750-ish fps and maintaining 3MOA or less with his first trials...using heat-treated low-antimony alloy and a self-aligning bullet style. I've kept easily under 1.5 moa to over 2500 so far, never have tried any faster than that, but I was using a much heavier bullet also. Hopefully this summer will give us both a chance to refine these loads.

Gear

[Yodogsandman]

Gear, I used to shoot a lot of the Lyman 311644's, the one with the lube groove placed on the nose. I seem to remember the nose slumping (collapsing) anytime I tried to push it past about 1900 FPS. Back then, the alloy I used was full pound of 50/50 bar solder to the amount of AC COWW's needed to fill the rest of my 10 pound pot. Thinking back, the rifling seemed elongated and you could see the metal had been displaced into the lube grooves and gas check shank area. I didn't expect any rifling sign on the noses but, they were there on the recovered boolits. I had no idea! This was shooting a 12 twist, 7.62x51 Spanish FR-8 Mauser that I lopped off to 16 1/2" and bubba customized. I think I want to try throwing some lead down that rifle again with all this new knowledge! It's a proven jacketed bullet shooter but, I never felt I had it wrung out with boolits. 10 shot groups were 2"-2 1/2" at 100 yards.

Most guys are posting about using longer barrels for HV. Any advise for using the shorter barrels?

[runfiverun]

Seat the boolit a bit shorter and speed up the powder some.
Then try different alloys slightly hardening the mix a little .5% at a time.
Also using a buffer (not a filler ) will help

[dtknowles]

......Ballistim and Yodog, if you DO recover some low-antimony bullets fired at relatively high velocity, you might be surprised how far the engraving marks and groove fillout go up the nose compared to a bullet simply pushed through the gun from the muzzle with a rod, or fired into catch medium with a squib load. This shape-shift is why some of the silhouette designs, with short bearing length, shoot better when you plan on bumping the nose up from behind at launch by using the right alloy and powder combination...........
Gear

I have the following recovered bullet almost certainly a low sb alloy shot at 1500 fps or so driven by Red Dot.

I think upon close examination some of what you suggest happens is demonstrated by this bullets but not quite enough to really support the nose. It is a Lyman 311041 and the nose has slight marks from the rifling and the nose was bumped up just a bit from the firing.

131335

Tim

[btroj]

Great example Tim.

[TXGunNut]

TX.
I'm NOT typing theory I am telling you how I get the results I get.
You have to read what has been written and do it yourself if you want to see results.

Now i sound like Bob.

LOL, just poking a little fun at the snowbound shooters. I know they want to be casting, loading, shooting and compiling data instead of talking about it. I've been following this thread mainly as an academic exercise but now it seems I have a rifle, cartridge and boolit that may want to go faster than the 2000 fps I've been settling for. Not as fast as some of you are going but some of what I've read here will be helpful.

[geargnasher]

Also note zero skidding in the pic, even with Red Dot.

Yodog, perhaps the noses of your 644s weren't slumping. Suppose they were swelled by alloy displaced from behind, from the other end of the bullet. The supporting taper of the 644 series jams up in the throat's leade, nice and straight, and creates drag on the outside layer of the middle portion for a millisecond. Pressure is still gaining on the base and metal pushes from the base though the nose, swelling the nose into the grooves slightly. This is metal flow. See why it's important to have the right alloy that might do this in a uniform manner?

Also, I'm going to drop a thought bomb here for some to ponder: "Precipitation hardening". Consider as well that tin is a grain refiner, and when present with antimony in lead solutions binds with it to make the intermetallic compound Sb/Sn as we have read about in our bullet-casting manuals. What I haven't seen mentioned (but I haven't read Lyman 4th ed. in its entirety) is that this may not be what you WANT to happen, if you wish to promote the alloy's ductility while also making it stronger. Many people believe that minimizing "free" antimony and tin, that is, using equal parts antimony and tin in their ternary alloy makes a tough, fine-grained, yet flexible bullet which is highly resistant to deformation, and they would be correct. But...... is that what you want when you cram a relatively unsupported bullet through a small hole very quickly under extremely high pressure with lots of room on the entry end? Let me ask, are you making alloy for rivets, or are you making alloy for bullets?

If you answered "neither, I just use Lyman #2 or other super-tough alloy and really slow powder so the bullet doesn't deform in the throat", my response will be "So, how many Unicorn tags did you draw this year?" Ok, so you use linotype, it has three times as much antimony as tin, and is really slick, right? Wrong again, it has so many slip lines that it can take very little plastic deformation before it simply fractures. Where it fractures, it's going to weaken and flake when abraded. Eutectic and pseudo-eutectic alloys precipitation-harden differently than non-eutectic ones due to the phase in which the hardening precipitates form. Some antimony is good in that it strengthens the metal, but too much of a good thing causes problems as bad as those it corrects. Ever get antimony wash, or bullets that abrade the drive side of the engraves almost completely by the time the bullet exits the muzzle? Ever wonder why you don't get good things when you push linotype bullets too fast in a fast-twist barrel? Ever wonder why Lyman #2 alloy turns to putty in a case neck and comes out the muzzle end so mangled that it flies off in to never-never land when you spin it past even modest velocities? It's because the alloy you apply does not behave the way you need it to under the conditions you create. Fixed ammunition has some necessary tolerances that work against you, and factory rifles have some tolerances that are difficult to correct, so you have to find ways to mitigate their effects. This is what I have meant all the times I mentioned creating a system that makes the path of least resistance one which is absolutely straight, rather than sideways, into the tolerance gaps. Bullet shape, pressure curve, and alloy structure can work in harmony or in dissonance, depending on what you, as the bullet caster and handloader choose to do, so once again, consistency on target come down to bullet design, alloy selection, and powder selection. Static fit through proper case preparation, consistent loading techniques are important too, but only part of the equation. Barrel harmonics, or course, have to be considered too, and that again is where consistency in all things help make consistent results on target, as well as proper load tuning to an optimal "node", or actually several distinctly different "nodes". If you don't get all of this right, the rpm monster will get you because your little bullet got itself mangled all out of balance during the launch, or the consistency monster will get you because the rifle isn't releasing the bullets all in the same way, or the velocity monster will get you and eat the metal off the driving surface of your bullets.

Tim K., you have studied and practiced within the field of engineering, how do you suppose the properties of grain size, slip, and crystal formation due to precipitation hardening might be beneficial to the launch of a cast bullet from fixed ammunition? Also, think about how water-quenched, low-antimony, lower-tin alloy might have certain desirable ductility and how that might be an advantage?

Add in a trace "impurity", such as copper, and think about how that might take the same concept to the next level when quenching and allow even higher levels of launch and acceleration stress?

Just some stuff to chew on as you cogitate on how to get that bullet from the case neck safely, straight, and uniformly into the bore at extremely high velocity and pressure.

Gear

[35 shooter]

Gear you've got me thinking hard now with that last post on alloy. My problem at the range is figuring out which problem i'm running into at the time as i've only shot cast in rifles for about 2 years now.
For an example i got lucky to start with with the rcbs 200 gr. boolit in 35 whelen. i used h4895 right off the bat with straight ww heat treated. I worked up loads slowly and at 48 gr to 51 gr. had great results. i didn't chrono but have seen the 51 gr. chronoed at 2475 fps. here somewhere.
I tried 4895 with the same alloy and a 358009 280 gr. boolit with not so good results, but imr 4350 worked great, but at 2200 fps. I used 54 gr. 4350 with the 280 and 54 1/2 gr. 4350 with the 200 for the same 2200 fps.
I have since worked with the noe 230gr. boolit with the same alloy and 4895. The same 48 to 50 gr. range of loads that worked with the 200 gr. boolit gave shotgun patterns with the 230 gr.
Then 54 gr. 4350 for i'm guessing the same 2200 fps. as the other two put the first 4 boolits cutting into each other. Fired on a crosswind for the 5th and still got a 1.3" group out of it.

My longwinded point is 4350 (slower powder) shoots all three boolits well at 2200 fps. with the same alloy.
4895 shot well to 2500 fps. with the same alloy, but only with the 200 gr. boolit.
That's been running me nuts. I would think it is boolit design related? Or is it a need to change alloy for the heavier boolits to shoot the faster powder? If alloy related, is there a way to quickly determine whether to use harder or softer alloy in the situation i described, or is it all trial and error?

The answer is probably already in this thread, but lol some of it gets confusing cause it's so spread out. However i feel i've picked up a lot of tips just following along. The twist is 1/14 on the rifle if that makes a difference with the powders and boolits i'm using.
Of course i'm happy with 2200 fps. with all three boolits as it is and 1.5" and better groups at 100 yds. with each.
Just would like to up it a bit if i can. Guess i'm trying to get a better grasp on when it's a boolit design problem vs. powder choice or alloy problem. Lol how do i know from what i've described here?

[dtknowles]

.................Tim K., you have studied and practiced within the field of engineering, how do you suppose the properties of grain size, slip, and crystal formation due to precipitation hardening might be beneficial to the launch of a cast bullet from fixed ammunition? Also, think about how water-quenched, low-antimony, lower-tin alloy might have certain desirable ductility and how that might be an advantage?...............
Gear

First let me make it clear, I am not a Materials and Properties Engineer, we have people who do that kind of thing full time and when I need new materials tested or advice on how to get the desired properties I get their help. Where I work it would take them about three months and $100,000 to answer your question but we would have some awesome micrographs to go with all the test data from a battery of tests. The answer would be unambiguous but it would be very application specific. To cover different applications they would design a different set of tests.

Without out that testing I can only speculate on what properties are desirable. You logic that ductility is desirable in certain applications it reasonable. Ductility will work against you in certain conditions as it means the bullet deforms more easily. I can't tell you which way works better, more ductile bullet launched knowing that it is going to change shape or a harder bullet that we try to keep its shape. I don't even know the best way to make a harder bullet, can we actually make a hard bullet that is ductile.

I have a completely different approach. Because I like shooting groups off a bench, I am going to just try a bunch of different things and see what works in my gun.

Tim