high velocity with cast.

[dtknowles]

Tim's post #1344 shows nose slump, not base push as the rifling marks are at the weak point of the nose, creating a bulge. Way not be bads if it sort of forms another drive band - but probably is just crooked. Base push would show more highly compressed lube grooves. If you add some copper, the tails in the lube grooves don't break off as easy. They seem to 'melt' into the grooves vs being pulled off. Pay attention to Gear's #1347, precipitation cooling. This is where most grain boundaries are formed and determine grain size & compound. Water dropping merely reduces the amount of 'super cooling' during precipitation.
Any metal takes time to 'reform', fast powders give less time do do it properly, i.e. the impulse energy is added to the force on the metal.

I don't think the nose is crooked, I think the marks go all the way around. This was shot in my Topper in 30-30 with iron sights, not the best gun for accuracy tests so I don't have pictures of groups shot with this setup.

Tim

[geargnasher]

I didn't study materials and properties much either in the course of studying M.E., but the basic descriptions of these things are simple to glean from certain engineering materials handbooks, and one foundry metal book I have that Jbunny gave me a few years ago. Ultimately, you just have to shoot several alloys systematically with several powders and start to form a picture of what works in your mind so you can go to the next gun with a bullet, alloy, already in mind.

Understanding about precipitation hardening mechanisms will solve any mystery associated with age-growth phenomena as well.

35 Shooter: Think of it like this, there's an optimal "launch" condition for a given bullet design in a given gun. Alloy and powder can be manipulated to find it. Once found, you will determine that it's at a certain velocity. By looking at what alloy you used, what pressures and pressure curve is involved based on the burning characteristics of your powder within that system, you can form a sort of image of what's happening to the bullet at that point. If you want to go faster, manipulate alloy and powder to achieve the same dynamic at higher velocity. 4895 is probably bumping the heavy bullets too hard at 2500 fps even though it's not intuitive to me that heat-treated WW couldn't take it, I would try actually switching to a ball powder in the 4350-ish burn rate to adjust the pressure rise (decrease the slope) and extend the burn a little farther down the barrel and see if you can duplicate the results that the faster powder gave you at lower velocity. Essentially, if you find something that works and want to go faster, try duplicating the same dynamic launch conditions but at higher speed. At a certain point, you might have to switch tack and modify the bullet design, seating depth, or even the brass or start using a buffering filler to achieve the same results. Lots of ways to do it, you just have to get in your mind what you're trying to accomplish with the launch and think of ways to pull it off.

Gear

[Yodogsandman]

I don't think the nose is crooked, I think the marks go all the way around. This was shot in my Topper in 30-30 with iron sights, not the best gun for accuracy tests so I don't have pictures of groups shot with this setup.

Tim

Tim, I also found it hard to control an H&R Topper, 30-30 from the bench last summer. Tough to shoot a 6 lb rifle with a 7 lb trigger! The trick was to prevent the gun from moving while pulling the trigger straight back without imparting any torque. I found a few of my 311291's but, they were shot at closer to 700-1000 FPS and didn't show any of those signs.

Thanks for posting that photo! It's a perfect example for us to look for.

[dtknowles]

I'll make a more accurate statement - can't guarantee that any slump will be concentric. Ok? H335 is more accurate at the same fps under the same boolit in 308, for me. I think the short stick peens the GC.

Understood.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Tim, I also found it hard to control an H&R Topper, 30-30 from the bench last summer. Tough to shoot a 6 lb rifle with a 7 lb trigger! The trick was to prevent the gun from moving while pulling the trigger straight back without imparting any torque. I found a few of my 311291's but, they were shot at closer to 700-1000 FPS and didn't show any of those signs.

Thanks for posting that photo! It's a perfect example for us to look for.

I have worked on the trigger on the Topper but I did not measure the weight but it is better than before I started. I don't shoot it much off the bench. I played a sort of game with that rifle, I liked to bring it to the range and try and hit the steel plate at 100 yards shooting standing off-hand with a cold barrel. I got comfortable that I could count on making that shot reliably. The gun has not been out of the case for a year, I would guess, I got interested in other guns.

Tim

[35 shooter]

Gear thanks..looks like i've been thinking in the right direction, just low on powder choices right now. Wish i hadn't let someone have the last 7 pounds of h414 i used to shoot in my 7/08 before i got the whelen, that may have worked. Oh well lol. I'll try your suggestions.

[TXGunNut]

What I haven't seen mentioned (but I haven't read Lyman 4th ed. in its entirety) is that this may not be what you WANT to happen, if you wish to promote the alloy's ductility while also making it stronger. Many people believe that minimizing "free" antimony and tin, that is, using equal parts antimony and tin in their ternary alloy makes a tough, fine-grained, yet flexible bullet which is highly resistant to deformation, and they would be correct.-Gear

I haven't seen it in the Lyman 4th ed either but my eyes glazed over during the metallurgy discussions in that manual. Any manual that can't see much past 1900 fps in most cases shows a lack of adventurism in the metallurgy department, IMHO.
Closest thing I've seen to your line of thinking was in Glen Fryxell's book but he was talking about handgun boolits (and velocities) at the time.

IMHO I think metallurgy (or maybe we should say "deformation behavior") is second only to boolit/throat fit in this pursuit.

[TXGunNut]

4895 is probably bumping the heavy bullets too hard at 2500 fps even though it's not intuitive to me that heat-treated WW couldn't take it, I would try actually switching to a ball powder in the 4350-ish burn rate to adjust the pressure rise (decrease the slope) and extend the burn a little farther down the barrel and see if you can duplicate the results that the faster powder gave you at lower velocity.-Gear

Thanks, Gear. I wasn't aware of that property of ball powder. I somehow assumed the obverse was true. Seems I need to break out of my stick powder rut for rifles. For some reason I think ball powders are for pistols, flake is for shotguns and stick is for rifles.

[runfiverun]

35 shooter.
Stop and think for a minute.

You had a modicum of success with one boolit design and a fast powder.
You had much more success with a couple of other designs and a slower powder.

What is the relationship there?
is there a common denominator?
what was the two (plus) differences between them.


And for the record you can and will get two different answers on alloy use from me and Gear.
He and I know why this is.
we also use slightly different approaches when it comes to boolit design.
We focus on the same area of the rifle, but get through it in slightly different way's.

Some of our advice may seem off or even contradictory at times,'but you have to remember we measured two different rifles, two different alloys, and two different pretty
much everything else (including lube, and powder)

[35 shooter]

35 shooter.
Stop and think for a minute.

You had a modicum of success with one boolit design and a fast powder.
You had much more success with a couple of other designs and a slower powder.

What is the relationship there?
is there a common denominator?
what was the two (plus) differences between them.


And for the record you can and will get two different answers on alloy use from me and Gear.
He and I know why this is.
we also use slightly different approaches when it comes to boolit design.
We focus on the same area of the rifle, but get through it in slightly different way's.

Some of our advice may seem off or even contradictory at times,'but you have to remember we measured two different rifles, two different alloys, and two different pretty
much everything else (including lube, and powder)

Yes i got lucky with the 200 gr. boolit right off the bat with the faster powder. Lol i only had the one boolit and powder. I was surprised to go as fast as i did with it and began to think it was all going to be easier than i thought.
Reality began to set in when i tried the next boolit, a 280 gr. bore rider which didn't work so well with the faster powder. A quick switch to a slower powder and more case fill fixed that. The 230 gr. doesn't like the faster powder either (unless there is a node it likes further up the ladder) but did like the slower. The 200 gr. even shoots more accurate with the slower powder.
They are all the same alloy with same amount of ht. so i figured the common thing between them and the powder was the pressure curve and all three boolits liked the slower powder. The differences were design and the fact the heavier, longer boolits didn't like the faster powder. Bit too much boot to the scoot on the longer heavier boolits? Especially the big bore rider. I figured the shorter lighter boolit worked a bit better than the other two with faster powder because it WAS shorter and was fully into the rifling before the rear end suffered any disfiguring or undue twisting before getting into the rifling? The longer boolits NEEDED the slower push?
All three boolits are actually pretty radically different in design. The only common thing i saw was alloy,slower powder, and speed between them. They ALL shot in the same window speed wise with the slower powder. Actually i kind of like the consistency of that.

I would like to eventually get the 200 and 230 gr. boolits up to 2400 fps. with both shooting the same powder with the same accuracy i now have...lol not too sure i want to push the 280 gr. that hard. Of course they may wind up wanting different powders. I still have room to move up with 4350, but don't think it will get me where i want to be....we'll see soon!

If you see more differences or whatever in what was going by all means tell me. I wouldn't have asked if i didn't want to learn more.:smile:

Btw the 230 gr. boolit actually shot better with 3031, an even faster powder, than it did with h4895. I was shooting the same loads as with the 4895 at least through 48 gr. which is as far as i've gone with 3031 so far. It stayed a bit under 2" with that powder at 100 yds.
Groups were actually rounded with 3031, 4895 was all over the place. All groups were 5 shots.

[geargnasher]

Yes i got lucky with the 200 gr. boolit right off the bat with the faster powder. Lol i only had the one boolit and powder. I was surprised to go as fast as i did with it and began to think it was all going to be easier than i thought.
Reality began to set in when i tried the next boolit, a 280 gr. bore rider which didn't work so well with the faster powder. A quick switch to a slower powder and more case fill fixed that. The 230 gr. doesn't like the faster powder either (unless there is a node it likes further up the ladder) but did like the slower. The 200 gr. even shoots more accurate with the slower powder.
They are all the same alloy with same amount of ht. so i figured the common thing between them and the powder was the pressure curve and all three boolits liked the slower powder. The differences were design and the fact the heavier, longer boolits didn't like the faster powder. Bit too much boot to the scoot on the longer heavier boolits? Especially the big bore rider. I figured the shorter lighter boolit worked a bit better than the other two with faster powder because it WAS shorter and was fully into the rifling before the rear end suffered any disfiguring or undue twisting before getting into the rifling? The longer boolits NEEDED the slower push?
All three boolits are actually pretty radically different in design. The only common thing i saw was alloy,slower powder, and speed between them. They ALL shot in the same window speed wise with the slower powder. Actually i kind of like the consistency of that.

I would like to eventually get the 200 and 230 gr. boolits up to 2400 fps. with both shooting the same powder with the same accuracy i now have...lol not too sure i want to push the 280 gr. that hard. Of course they may wind up wanting different powders. I still have room to move up with 4350, but don't think it will get me where i want to be....we'll see soon!

If you see more differences or whatever in what was going by all means tell me. I wouldn't have asked if i didn't want to learn more.:smile:

Btw the 230 gr. boolit actually shot better with 3031, an even faster powder, than it did with h4895. I was shooting the same loads as with the 4895 at least through 48 gr. which is as far as i've gone with 3031 so far. It stayed a bit under 2" with that powder at 100 yds.
Groups were actually rounded with 3031, 4895 was all over the place. All groups were 5 shots.

What you have done and described so far paints a pretty clear picture, and you've already connected most of the dots. You can see how each design likes to be pushed when cast of one alloy. That last part about group shape is quite telling, that is the sort of thing to look for. 3031 and 4895 aren't all that far apart on the burn rate chart, but you saw the difference in groups with just that subtle change. This is why there's no real magic cut-to-the-chase method here, you just have to experiment and find what works.

Like Run said, there is more than one way to skin this cat, and which approaches we try probably has more to do with what's handy, what's simplest, and what moulds we happen to have to work with. We make an educated guess and flip to the back of the book for the answer at the range. Just about every time I start out with a new rifle it teaches me something new, something I hadn't thought of before. What ends up getting you to your goal may not be exactly what either of us might have tried, or encourage you to try, all we can do is describe what our approaches to the same problem would be, and let you download that into your think tank next time you're at the loading bench.

Gear

[dtknowles]

What you have done and described so far paints a pretty clear picture, and you've already connected most of the dots. You can see how each design likes to be pushed when cast of one alloy. That last part about group shape is quite telling, that is the sort of thing to look for. 3031 and 4895 aren't all that far apart on the burn rate chart, but you saw the difference in groups with just that subtle change. This is why there's no real magic cut-to-the-chase method here, you just have to experiment and find what works.

Like Run said, there is more than one way to skin this cat, and which approaches we try probably has more to do with what's handy, what's simplest, and what moulds we happen to have to work with. We make an educated guess and flip to the back of the book for the answer at the range. Just about every time I start out with a new rifle it teaches me something new, something I hadn't thought of before. What ends up getting you to your goal may not be exactly what either of us might have tried, or encourage you to try, all we can do is describe what our approaches to the same problem would be, and let you download that into your think tank next time you're at the loading bench.

Gear

Maybe I missed it but how many groups did 35 shooter shoot with each load and how many shots in each group. Not trying to criticize the conclusions but personally I would not be jumping to any conclusions based on one or two groups unless the differences are large or the shooter is confident all his shots we well executed. I posed a range report from last weekend with 4 groups for a single load, the smallest group with 1.26" and the largest was 2.28 and if we throw out the largest group because I am sure I was the problem not the load, the three remaining groups are 1.26", 1.45" and 1.95" that still leave a lot of uncertainty and that was with everything the same, based on that session I decided that 0.309" sizing for these bullets was not better than 0.310" sizing for the same bullet that shot 1.09", 1.28", and 1.50" since I did not shoot the groups on the same day and they used a different lube I am not really sure that 0.310" is actually better. If I had only shot one group of each load and shot them on the same day I would be even less sure. One of the things that helped me decide that 0.310" was better was the spread between the largest and smallest group was smaller 0.41 vs. 0.69.

Tim

[btroj]

Ah, making valid conclusions from our observations. Good point Tim. I don't care what a rifle does on one day, not even if it fired a couple nice groups. I'm more interested in how it does over a series of a few trips. Is it consistent?
I am getting some bullets ready for some testing and am looking at how to devise a good test. One trip isn't gonna cut it.

[geargnasher]

You kinda can. It's easy to jump to wrong, false, or unsupported conclusions without sufficient data points, it's true, but a lot of this is a judgement call anyway. How sure do you want to be? How sure do you NEED to be? Only you can make that call. It doesn't take ten targets from ten different days to tell if one powder is working better than another when the difference in group size is measured in inches.

Gear

[btroj]

True, but in some cases it does matter. We can use a single group to weed out the imposters but once the rough work is done we get down to the details.
I go back to lube testing. Need to get repeatable results on multiple days. I'm talking about fine tuning, not the rough out.

[runfiverun]

If you have been working the load up through a series of tests and have been getting better and better results re-shooting the test again is the prudent thing to do. (But your results are based on the whole series of shots not just the one day's test)

You eventually get to a point of that's good enough for now and move on to the next rifle.
You may re-think your process in the future and try again with more knowledge of throat design and alloy flow or whatever step you think will get you ahead.
Then you will start over from there.

[dtknowles]

amigos, ya'll are right no arguments here. We know little with certainty but we have to make choices. If our lives depended on these choices I think we would approach it a bit differently but gladly our lives aren't on the line.

Tim

[runfiverun]

That's the key here.
Thinking and observing.
Shooting for well.....something to do is fun but if your serious about your goals you have to really put in some thought process to each step to see what the rifle is saying.

[geargnasher]

True, but in some cases it does matter. We can use a single group to weed out the imposters but once the rough work is done we get down to the details.
I go back to lube testing. Need to get repeatable results on multiple days. I'm talking about fine tuning, not the rough out.


amigos, ya'll are right no arguments here. We know little with certainty but we have to make choices. If our lives depended on these choices I think we would approach it a bit differently but gladly our lives aren't on the line.

Tim

So true, all of it.

Gear

[35 shooter]

Maybe I missed it but how many groups did 35 shooter shoot with each load and how many shots in each group. Not trying to criticize the conclusions but personally I would not be jumping to any conclusions based on one or two groups unless the differences are large or the shooter is confident all his shots we well executed. I posed a range report from last weekend with 4 groups for a single load, the smallest group with 1.26" and the largest was 2.28 and if we throw out the largest group because I am sure I was the problem not the load, the three remaining groups are 1.26", 1.45" and 1.95" that still leave a lot of uncertainty and that was with everything the same, based on that session I decided that 0.309" sizing for these bullets was not better than 0.310" sizing for the same bullet that shot 1.09", 1.28", and 1.50" since I did not shoot the groups on the same day and they used a different lube I am not really sure that 0.310" is actually better. If I had only shot one group of each load and shot them on the same day I would be even less sure. One of the things that helped me decide that 0.310" was better was the spread between the largest and smallest group was smaller 0.41 vs. 0.69.

Tim
I try to get to the range at least once a week with anywhere from 30 to 100 rounds loaded.
I usually re-verify known loads each week and will also have something else loaded to try at the same time.
I shoot 5 shot groups to determine accuracy nodes, then finish with 10 shot groups to verify group averages.
I usually shoot about 20 five shot groups to get an average on an accuracy load, then verify the average with 2 or three 10 shot groups. It then goes in the load book!
I then continue to shoot that load at least once each range trip in case nothing else i'm experimenting shoots well...i'll shoot my known loads last so i see a good group go down range before i leave lol.
After 2 years of shooting the 200 gr. rcbs and about a year with the noe 200 gr. The avg. for each boolit is 1.2" @ 100 yds. with 4350 and very close to that with 4895.
The 358009 280 gr. boolit loads started last spring through now. It averages 1.3" @ 100 yds. with the 4350 load after almost a year or 3/4 of a year.
The 230 gr. is brand new and yes i admit only one group with 54 gr. of imr 4350 has been fired with it. The first 4 cut into each other and the 5th was to the right for a 1.298" group.
54 1/2 gr. went 1.4" so i'll have to try it several more times but it looks good so far.
I have no idea how many groups have been fired with the 200 and 280 gr. boolits with my acurracy loads....tons.

And yes, i understand your point and you weren't being critical and it was a good one. But in this case tons of shooting has been done and conclusions can be drawn. I should have made it clear in my above posts.
Guess i was in to big a hurry to pick Run and Gears minds on it and left out some things lol:)

I'm at a point now where i would like to boost the speed and am looking for input on it.
Thanks guys!!

[geargnasher]

So, you didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, either, did you? :kidding:

What powders do you have in quantity that you'd like to use? Pick something slow that will safely get you in the velocity range you want, go ahead just work up for the speed only, and when you get about where you want to be, see what the groups are doing and start thinking about things to change/adjust.

Gear

[btroj]

I would say that is repeatable.

[dtknowles]

I try to get to the range at least once a week with anywhere from 30 to 100 rounds loaded.
I usually re-verify known loads each week and will also have something else loaded to try at the same time.
I shoot 5 shot groups to determine accuracy nodes, then finish with 10 shot groups to verify group averages.
I usually shoot about 20 five shot groups to get an average on an accuracy load, then verify the average with 2 or three 10 shot groups. It then goes in the load book!
I then continue to shoot that load at least once each range trip in case nothing else i'm experimenting shoots well...i'll shoot my known loads last so i see a good group go down range before i leave lol.
After 2 years of shooting the 200 gr. rcbs and about a year with the noe 200 gr. The avg. for each boolit is 1.2" @ 100 yds. with 4350 and very close to that with 4895.
The 358009 280 gr. boolit loads started last spring through now. It averages 1.3" @ 100 yds. with the 4350 load after almost a year or 3/4 of a year.
The 230 gr. is brand new and yes i admit only one group with 54 gr. of imr 4350 has been fired with it. The first 4 cut into each other and the 5th was to the right for a 1.298" group.
54 1/2 gr. went 1.4" so i'll have to try it several more times but it looks good so far.
I have no idea how many groups have been fired with the 200 and 280 gr. boolits with my acurracy loads....tons.

And yes, i understand your point and you weren't being critical and it was a good one. But in this case tons of shooting has been done and conclusions can be drawn. I should have made it clear in my above posts.
Guess i was in to big a hurry to pick Run and Gears minds on it and left out some things lol:)

I'm at a point now where i would like to boost the speed and am looking for input on it.
Thanks guys!!

I will tell you a secret, I don't keep track of everything I test either. I am a very bad note taker. I did not take any or hardly any notes in school. I don't have the greatest memory for details either, I am more of a concept type person. I have to go look up numbers all the time for work, I never trust my memory. My pet loads are on ammo boxes and some are in an excel spreadsheet that I started to keep track of chrono data.

It seems you proved loads are well demonstrated, my only suggestion on increasing velocity is to pick an approach and test it and if it doesn't work know that you can try other paths.

Tim

[35 shooter]

So, you didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, either, did you? :kidding:

What powders do you have in quantity that you'd like to use? Pick something slow that will safely get you in the velocity range you want, go ahead just work up for the speed only, and when you get about where you want to be, see what the groups are doing and start thinking about things to change/adjust.

Gear
Naahh no Holiday INN last night...was born at night though...just not last night lol.:)

I've been loading for acurracy in rifles most of my life with jacketed. Cast is a whole new ball game for me with rifles. It's a whole lot more fun though and definitly more of a challenge. I'm happy where i'm at with my loads as is, the rest is just going to be for fun.

Never expected to come as far as i have or be hunting with confidence with cast, but if you hang around this place long enough, you can't help but pick up a few things. I was fortunate indeed to find this site!! And the learning continues.....
I'll try a ball powder when i can. Yodogsandman reminded me Paco Kelly used to shoot w760 with the 358009 boolit in his whelen....2500 fps? YIKES! 357maximum used to use 414 in his whelen...i'll give it a try.

[btroj]

I'm pretty sure that W760 and H414 are the same powder, just differ in the packaging. My understanding is that Win makes it and Hodgdon sells some under their brand too.

[high standard 40]

Yodogsandman reminded me Paco Kelly used to shoot w760 with the 358009 boolit in his whelen....2500 fps? YIKES! 357maximum used to use 414 in his whelen...i'll give it a try.

It is my understanding that W760 and H414 are exactly the same powder. You should be good to go using whichever you have or can find.

[Yodogsandman]

I've seen fillers kicked around here some. I've used Dacron in the past but, nothing else. Are fillers for HV used to flatten the pressure curve or just to protect the boolit base? What would determine the use of fillers? What fillers are best, BP original, Grex, etc.? Can regular powder measures be used to dispense the fillers?

[runfiverun]

There is a difference between fillers like Dacron which is used as a powder positioned this will decrease velocity variations and can help with ignition inconsistencys.
And buffers which cushion the base of the projectile as well as fill the case to help once again settle the load down.
The way the buffer is used ( below the shoulder) can increase the burn rate of the powder by inducing a pressure spike as the buffer resists movement forward the same as the
Boolit.
Its also part of the ejects mass.

You our can also use a filler and a buffer together in some instances.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks runfiverun, That clarifies some things. Since I posted, I re-read the sticky on fillers and I'm going back to read about the milk jug again. I'd much prefer some range time, though.

[runfiverun]

Cold doesn't stop me from shooting the wind in the winter will but not the cold.
I work outside all year around so even negative 20 isn't a show stopper.
But as soon as you add in wind I'm done, it's not worth it to me to go shoot 5 shots and jump in the truck then try again.

[btroj]

I have plans to shoot some tomorrow. Working with a new powder to see how it does. I need to get some preliminary work done to get a test run that I have in the works.

If you need to know you will.

[waco]

Thanks runfiverun, That clarifies some things. Since I posted, I re-read the sticky on fillers and I'm going back to read about the milk jug again. I'd much prefer some range time, though.

I've heard this milk jug thing talked about before. I tried a search but had not luck. Anyone care to tell me where I can find this thread? Thanks.

[runfiverun]

Look for milk jug with a 6.5 swede
or milk jug at 300 yds.
Be ready to read some bickering and some no flipping way posts from the cantdoits.

[Nrut]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?70923-Milk-Jug-300-Yard-6-5-Swede

[btroj]

Some bickering? Mostly disbelief. I have no reason to beleive it wasn't done.

[runfiverun]

that's the biggest problem I see is that many are willing to believe it cannot be done [or heard the gun-man at the LGS/range/on TV/read it a hundred y.o. book/or heard the checkout girl at the grocery store say it can't be done] and won't even try.

so they figure nobody else has the patience, willingness, or isn't smart enough to know they can't do it either, and will take great pains to tell them why they can't do it.

[btroj]

How many things were discovered by people to dumb to know it wasn't possible?

I often tell my daughter there is a huge difference between can't and won't. Some just don't understand that.

There is great power in the word "can't"

“The power of "can't": The word "can't" makes strong people weak, blinds people who can see, saddens happy people, turns brave people into cowards, robs a genius of their brilliance, causes rich people to think poorly, and limits the achievements of that great person living inside us all.” Robert T. Kiyosaki

[MBTcustom]

Judging by all the groups posted on castboolits this year, I'd have to say that we've proved that HV with cast is a very attainable goal.
I was talking to a popular barrel maker on the phone about this, asking him about cutting me a custom barrel with a special twist rate, and he asked me why in the world I would need a barrel cut like that. I told him exactly what we are doing here. He replied that shooting cast bullets that fast was a scientific impossibility, and that the bullets would melt and disintegrate if I actually did what I claimed.
I explained as gently as I could that it was being done pretty frequently nowadays, by many different people, and speeds of 3100FPS had been carefully documented and written about. He then proceeded to argue with me about why what I was telling him was impossible. I told him that I could provide him with references if he wished, but he refused to accept them.
Needless to say, I don't do business with that barrel maker anymore.

When I first started taking the XCB rifles to the range to test fire them, I got the same story from the RO's there. I friend of mine just came by the shop the other day and told me he overheard one of the RO's raving about the rifles I was bringing to the range and the groups I was shooting with cast lead at jacketed speeds!!!!!
Guess I made an impression.

The point is, the groups we are shooting and demonstrating are making an impact fellers. Peoples minds are being changed about the limitations of cast bullets all the time do to the work we are doing. If you think no one is watching, just take a look around next time you're headed back to the range house with your targets. Had a guy ask me what bullets I used. Told him, just cast lead, and I designed the bullet. He says "really. how fast? " I say "2500" (and I know he sees the chronograph under my arm). He says, "how'd you do that?" So I just tell him how I did it and go back to the shop.
It will take people a while to catch on, but a group on paper has a way of sticking with people and they don't forget it. This here is fun stuff!
Just keep on doing what you're doing and everybody will know about it eventually. Just takes a while to change the general opinion, but I think we're making progress.

[btroj]

We are still limited by the can't of rpm, aren't we? Well, some are.

I won't let it be a factor.

[MBTcustom]

People seem to have the same opinion about coated boolits Tim. I've seen a few raised eyebrows and I'm not that good a shot. Then when you tell them it's $10-20/100 they say wow.

For me, that's the coolest part about this sport. "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few."
You find a way to make cast lead behave like jacketed, and there's not a person at the range that is not interested.

[MBTcustom]

We are still limited by the can't of rpm, aren't we? Well, some are.

I won't let it be a factor.

It's no longer an issue.

[btroj]

So you are saying that rpm theory is debunked? Is that what you are saying?

[waksupi]

Judging by all the groups posted on castboolits this year, I'd have to say that we've proved that HV with cast is a very attainable goal.
I was talking to a popular barrel maker on the phone about this, asking him about cutting me a custom barrel with a special twist rate, and he asked me why in the world I would need a barrel cut like that. I told him exactly what we are doing here. He replied that shooting cast bullets that fast was a scientific impossibility, and that the bullets would melt and disintegrate if I actually did what I claimed.
I explained as gently as I could that it was being done pretty frequently nowadays, by many different people, and speeds of 3100FPS had been carefully documented and written about. He then proceeded to argue with me about why what I was telling him was impossible. I told him that I could provide him with references if he wished, but he refused to accept them.
Needless to say, I don't do business with that barrel maker anymore.

When I first started taking the XCB rifles to the range to test fire them, I got the same story from the RO's there. I friend of mine just came by the shop the other day and told me he overheard one of the RO's raving about the rifles I was bringing to the range and the groups I was shooting with cast lead at jacketed speeds!!!!!
Guess I made an impression.

The point is, the groups we are shooting and demonstrating are making an impact fellers. Peoples minds are being changed about the limitations of cast bullets all the time do to the work we are doing. If you think no one is watching, just take a look around next time you're headed back to the range house with your targets. Had a guy ask me what bullets I used. Told him, just cast lead, and I designed the bullet. He says "really. how fast? " I say "2500" (and I know he sees the chronograph under my arm). He says, "how'd you do that?" So I just tell him how I did it and go back to the shop.
It will take people a while to catch on, but a group on paper has a way of sticking with people and they don't forget it. This here is fun stuff!
Just keep on doing what you're doing and everybody will know about it eventually. Just takes a while to change the general opinion, but I think we're making progress.

I may have talked to that same barrel maker some years ago. He refused to cut a barrel as I wanted it. So, I went to the old Bauska shop, told them what I wanted, no problem. Les Bauska was always happy to do any experimenting anyone desired, as he had worked with John Buhmiller for many years.

[geargnasher]

Some people proved it was possible, with normal rifles, long ago. Unfortunately, they were ridiculed and run off by those who tried, failed, and deemed it impossible. It's a shame.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

So you are saying that rpm theory is debunked? Is that what you are saying?

Not at all, I am more convinced of it's validity than ever (just my opinion).

However, there are at least three ways to get to true HV accuracy.
People can read about one of them in the paper patching section.
Another can be seen clearly demonstrated in the slow twist threads.
and people can read this thread to get clear instruction on how to do it with a standard rifle.

That's all I'm saying. The point is, it's being done, (rather frequently) and anybody who wants to know how, will find no greater source for the knowledge of how to do so than here at castboolits.com.
Personally I'm pretty proud to be part of that.

[MBTcustom]

I may have talked to that same barrel maker some years ago. He refused to cut a barrel as I wanted it. So, I went to the old Bauska shop, told them what I wanted, no problem. Les Bauska was always happy to do any experimenting anyone desired, as he had worked with John Buhmiller for many years.

Too bad they are out of business. Heard they made a fine barrel.

[geargnasher]

Not at all, I am more convinced of it's validity than ever (just my opinion).

However, there are at least three ways to get to true HV accuracy.
People can read about one of them in the paper patching section.
Another can be seen clearly demonstrated in the slow twist threads.
and people can read this thread to get clear instruction on how to do it with a standard rifle.

That's all I'm saying. The point is, it's being done, (rather frequently) and anybody who wants to know how, will find no greater source for the knowledge of how to do so than here at castboolits.com.
Personally I'm pretty proud to be part of that.

There are more ways than that, they were outlined early on in this thread.

Gear

[btroj]

Those who want to see what can be done with traditional twist rates can stay here and see how to do it. It is quite possible.
Again, the fact one person can't make something work doesn't mean it isn't possible.

[bhn22]

deleted. It's hopeless...

[Doc Highwall]

My answer to people that say something that can't be done is "Don't judge my abilities by your lack of them"

I would say it is how you view the problem first, then the methodology of how you approach each obstacle with a plan that involves documentation at each step.

[MikeBitzenburger]

Just once it might be instructive to pretend you're accepting an award for failure, just to see who you would thank. ~Robert Brault

[btroj]

My answer to people that say something that can't be done is "Don't judge my abilities by your lack of them"

I would say it is how you view the problem first, then the methodology of how you approach each obstacle with a plan that involves documentation at each step.

Excellent comments. I am learning how pressure and alloy interact in my rifle. Learned the upper limit of one alloy today. Now I know.

[runfiverun]

A few years ago I followed along on the exploits of someone shooting cast boolits without lube.
MMM,HMMM no lube.
and at decent velocity's too, now think about all the planning and work he had to put into making that happen.

[leftiye]

Just once it might be instructive to pretend you're accepting an award for failure, just to see who you would thank. ~Robert Brault

Doesn't that equate with making excuses?

[btroj]

“Optimist: Someone who figures that taking a step backward
after taking a step forward is not a disaster, it's a cha-cha.”
― Robert Brault (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7192677.Robert_Brault)

That pretty well sums up my feelings. Every time I find something that doesn't work I still learned something.

The power of the 3 amigos is that we bounce ideas off each other but all do our own thing. We each are independant but use the others as a sounding board. What the others do gives direction to what I do but it never steers what I do. We collaborate but we don't mimic or copy.

[runfiverun]

kind of odd how we end up in different places following the same path ain't it.
we went through the 10 jillion page lube thing and Ian ends up pursuing sodium stearate and I end up chasing lithium stearate, and metal solids.
we are both super happy with what we use. [shrug]

[geargnasher]

kind of odd how we end up in different places following the same path ain't it.
we went through the 10 jillion page lube thing and Ian ends up pursuing sodium stearate and I end up chasing lithium stearate, and metal solids.
we are both super happy with what we use. [shrug]

Easy, we ended up on two different places because we live and shoot in two completely different climates. The important thing is we learned WHY what we use works for us, and assessed the needs, explored options, developed the tests, did the tests, thought about the results, and repeated the process until we were happy with what we got. I had a lot of help because the lube I was looking for has actually already been invented by Paco Kelly and separately by Starmetal. Sodium holds up in the barrel better during extreme heat, and a whole lot more of it can easily be incorporated into the lube so IT becomes the binder instead of the wax, and I can store my lube in a 160F car for days on end and no oil leakage. The wax is only a dispersant. If it never got over 80F and I never shot revolvers or autoloaders I'd be happy with lithi-bee. Fortunately, I don't have to contend with much in the way of cold weather, so that is less of a consideration for me than it is for many. Much of the time, though, there are simply a great number of ways to skin any particular cat, only limited by the laws of physics and the imaginations of those pursuing their own answers to a common question.

Gear

[Yodogsandman]

Earlier in this thread, a question was asked about how to "read" or decipher your targets to identify problems. I know I sometimes wonder what's going on. Is it me or the load? I ponder most of the week sometimes, come to some possible conclusion and act on it by loading up something new. I've had all sorts of shaped groups, round, square, rectangular and horizontal, rectangular and vertical, etc. Is it the RPM's, the alloy, the pressure, the BHN, the lube, the fitment, a node, ignition, etc. What kind of clues, on the target should we be able to recognize?

[geargnasher]

Good question. I don't have all the answers, but can share a little experience.

First, get your shooting rests, hold, trigger squeeze, and the particulars involving how to properly bag/hold the particular rifle rifle squared away. For example, never put the front rest of a levergun up on the forward part of the forend. Jacketed ammo is a good way to set a standard and evaluate your rifle and technique.

Vertical is due to burn inconsistencies. In the extreme, this can be caused by ignition problems, powder charge below it's efficient zone, inconsistent neck tension, primer seating, etc. The last couple inches of vertical are usually tunable with powder charge, indicating it was muzzle exit timing and barrel whip being on the ragged edge of a node. If you get vertical and very narrow horizontal, that's good.....start making very small increases in powder charge (.2 grain at a time) and see if you can't sneak up on the node and close the group down to a hole.

Horizontal not related to the bedding, rests, or trigger can often be a harmonic issue again, adjust powder to see if they either go vertical or close up into a round hole.

Flyers can be caused by just about anything. If you're sure you have the basics squared away, carefully cull brass that caused flyers and take a serious look at bullet weight, bullet uniformity (dimensions), and LUBE. Sometimes you just have to change one thing and go see what happens, as is often the case with lube....or dry-patch between each shot and see if that fixes regular flyers, the ones that can occur about once every five shots. Seen this a bunch in lube testing, sometimes ten shot groups would print two tight groups, one with 7-8 holes and one with 2-3. Some lube-related flyers occurred only one to two times in 20 rounds, but were consistent.

If it's a shotgun pattern but the rifle shoots jacketed well, or shoots low-velocity cast well, you're most likely damaging the bullet in the first half-inch of its travel, and fixing that problem is what a lot of this thread has been about, at least from my perspective, Runfiverun's, and 45 2.1's.

If you can shoot round, evenly dispersed, ten shot groups at 100 yards you're doing a lot of things right, but need to fine-tune your ammunition or change to a different powder. If you're getting 2" groups because of several wild flyers surrounding a sub-moa group, you have a lot more work to do at the loading bench to find and fix your ammunition inconsistencies.

This advice is general, there will be exceptions, and there are plenty of other causes, but as a guideline I have found it to be true.

Gear

[btroj]

I have had all of those! Today I will checking into a few things I have been wondering about.

looking into a change in alloy and another powder for an old alloy. Starting to gather data for a decent comparison.

[Forrest r]

Vertical is due to burn inconsistencies. In the extreme, this can be caused by ignition problems, powder charge below it's efficient zone, inconsistent neck tension, primer seating, etc. The last couple inches of vertical are usually tunable with powder charge, indicating it was muzzle exit timing and barrel whip being on the ragged edge of a node. If you get vertical and very narrow horizontal, that's good.....start making very small increases in powder charge (.2 grain at a time) and see if you can't sneak up on the node and close the group down to a hole.

Horizontal not related to the bedding, rests, or trigger can often be a harmonic issue again, adjust powder to see if they either go vertical or close up into a round hole.
Gear

Nice writ-up.

Just something to think about:
To this day the 1st thing I learn is what torque the action screws like. It will make a difference in what the groups look like if their off. Too tight will cause vertical stringing and too loose will cause horizontal stringing. Back in the late 80's I had a 1500yd puma range setup and we'd go out and shoot all day. Allot of times it would be in the 60*'s in the morning when we got there. By 2:00/3:00 the blue steel would heat up and we'd have to reset the torques or bad things would happen. That's why you see most shooters are setting/checking their torques just before a shoot starts.

A 28% decrease in group size by simply adjusting/resetting the torques on the action screws.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/20308skplus.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/20308skplus.jpg.html)

That annie is my favorite squirrel rifle, I simply tightened the action screws by hand and was dialing it in for cold weather. Saw the vertical stringing and knew I had the screws too tight. Got out the torque wrench and set them properly like I should of to begin with. Nothing more than 5-shot groups but it told me what I needed to know.

Anyway, just something to think about.

[MBTcustom]

Nice writ-up.

Just something to think about:
To this day the 1st thing I learn is what torque the action screws like. It will make a difference in what the groups look like if their off. Too tight will cause vertical stringing and too loose will cause horizontal stringing. Back in the late 80's I had a 1500yd puma range setup and we'd go out and shoot all day. Allot of times it would be in the 60*'s in the morning when we got there. By 2:00/3:00 the blue steel would heat up and we'd have to reset the torques or bad things would happen. That's why you see most shooters are setting/checking their torques just before a shoot starts.

A 28% decrease in group size by simply adjusting/resetting the torques on the action screws.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/20308skplus.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/20308skplus.jpg.html)

That annie is my favorite squirrel rifle, I simply tightened the action screws by hand and was dialing it in for cold weather. Saw the vertical stringing and knew I had the screws too tight. Got out the torque wrench and set them properly like I should of to begin with. Nothing more than 5-shot groups but it told me what I needed to know.

Anyway, just something to think about.

This is excellent advice.

[Love Life]

PWS does that with their M40 series rifles. They note the torque settings in the data book that accompanies the rifle.

Measuring seating pressure alleviates the guess work of neck tension. Sort as needed.

Powder charges and finding nodes. The ladder and OCW tests are both very helpful for finding a range of charges where barrel harmonics are your friend and are an easy way to narrow things down without using up to many components. I use an analytical scale and tuned powder trickler to weigh my charges. A promethius would be faster, but expensive. Vertical at distance dropped significantly using the scale and trickler.

There are other tricks. When trying to shoot one holers you have to look at everything from the shooter, to the gun, to the loads, to the rests, to the shooting platform.

[alamogunr]

A few years ago I followed along on the exploits of someone shooting cast boolits without lube.
MMM,HMMM no lube.
and at decent velocity's too, now think about all the planning and work he had to put into making that happen.

Was that person posting on the CB-L? I've got most of his articles printed and in a binder. Haven't looked at them in a long time. Guess I'll get them out and re-read.

[Bongo Boy]

I've often wanted to do some decent experiments myself, but only because I have not read about what others have done with regard to lubed vs non-lubed. I always wondered how it's possible that lube actually does anything at all, and how you'd know. WHen the lube itself is behind most of the unlubed bullet riding the barrel--one wonders.

[PAT303]

Good question. I don't have all the answers, but can share a little experience.

First, get your shooting rests, hold, trigger squeeze, and the particulars involving how to properly bag/hold the particular rifle rifle squared away. For example, never put the front rest of a levergun up on the forward part of the forend. Jacketed ammo is a good way to set a standard and evaluate your rifle and technique.

Vertical is due to burn inconsistencies. In the extreme, this can be caused by ignition problems, powder charge below it's efficient zone, inconsistent neck tension, primer seating, etc. The last couple inches of vertical are usually tunable with powder charge, indicating it was muzzle exit timing and barrel whip being on the ragged edge of a node. If you get vertical and very narrow horizontal, that's good.....start making very small increases in powder charge (.2 grain at a time) and see if you can't sneak up on the node and close the group down to a hole.

Horizontal not related to the bedding, rests, or trigger can often be a harmonic issue again, adjust powder to see if they either go vertical or close up into a round hole.

Flyers can be caused by just about anything. If you're sure you have the basics squared away, carefully cull brass that caused flyers and take a serious look at bullet weight, bullet uniformity (dimensions), and LUBE. Sometimes you just have to change one thing and go see what happens, as is often the case with lube....or dry-patch between each shot and see if that fixes regular flyers, the ones that can occur about once every five shots. Seen this a bunch in lube testing, sometimes ten shot groups would print two tight groups, one with 7-8 holes and one with 2-3. Some lube-related flyers occurred only one to two times in 20 rounds, but were consistent.

If it's a shotgun pattern but the rifle shoots jacketed well, or shoots low-velocity cast well, you're most likely damaging the bullet in the first half-inch of its travel, and fixing that problem is what a lot of this thread has been about, at least from my perspective, Runfiverun's, and 45 2.1's.

If you can shoot round, evenly dispersed, ten shot groups at 100 yards you're doing a lot of things right, but need to fine-tune your ammunition or change to a different powder. If you're getting 2" groups because of several wild flyers surrounding a sub-moa group, you have a lot more work to do at the loading bench to find and fix your ammunition inconsistencies.

This advice is general, there will be exceptions, and there are plenty of other causes, but as a guideline I have found it to be true.

Gear
Gear,can I just say that posts like this are brilliant,top stuff. Pat

[btroj]

Forrest, what cartridge was that rifle chambered in?

[smokeywolf]

PWS does that with their M40 series rifles. They note the torque settings in the data book that accompanies the rifle.

Measuring seating pressure alleviates the guess work of neck tension. Sort as needed.

Powder charges and finding nodes. The ladder and OCW tests are both very helpful for finding a range of charges where barrel harmonics are your friend and are an easy way to narrow things down without using up to many components. I use an analytical scale and tuned powder trickler to weigh my charges. A promethius would be faster, but expensive. Vertical at distance dropped significantly using the scale and trickler.

There are other tricks. When trying to shoot one holers you have to look at everything from the shooter, to the gun, to the loads, to the rests, to the shooting platform.

LL, what is a tuned powder trickler?

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

It's tuned to E sharp
:kidding:

[Love Life]

LL, what is a tuned powder trickler?

smokeywolf

Omega.

[MBTcustom]

This is it if anybody wants to know:
http://www.omegapowdertrickler.com/

I have looked it over several times, but I could never decide if it was all that and a bag of chips or not.

[Forrest r]

Forrest, what cartridge was that rifle chambered in?

I'm not sure what your asking???

The rifle that I was sighting in/tuning for squirrel is my favorite squirrel rifle, a 1958 anschutz full stock 22lr fitted with a weaver 3x post scope.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/fsscoped.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/fsscoped.jpg.html)

If your asking what calibers we used for the puma shoots, 30-06 & 300mags in 40x rifles. It was always interesting to change the front sight (put a e sight in) on the 03-a3's. Burned a couple of bbl's out on those ranges (100yd pistol/500yd,600yd,1000yd,1500yd rifle) with pat's reloading right around the corner selling extremely cheap surplus powder back then.

To this day (old habits are hard to break) I still have a puma rifle chambered in 308.

[MBTcustom]

Is that a Weaver K-3 on that Anschutz? Good scope.

[Love Life]

This is it if anybody wants to know:
http://www.omegapowdertrickler.com/

I have looked it over several times, but I could never decide if it was all that and a bag of chips or not.

Good enough for use with a lab scale. Closest I can get to a Prometheus 2 without paying Prometheus prices. I break it out for long range loads which means it has gathered dust since my move.

A bit overkill for anything under 600 yds and I doubt the edge will show up with cast loads until the accuracy has equaled premium match jacketed bullet accuracy. Basically not really relevant to tis discussion.

[GrayTech]

red the cooling doesn't matter it's the heat.
the time of the heat isn't overly important it's how much.
you have to get to between 700-715 for the molecules to re-align in brass and for the annealing to be done.
I use time to get the temps to the same point.
if a case takes more or less time it is different than the rest of the batch and doesn't belong.
Actually.... Cooling does matter. Although brass cannot be hardened by temp, slow air cooling allows crystal structure to grow in size and weakens it. Fast cooling in water is best for consistency and adds to case life.

[Yodogsandman]

Good question. I don't have all the answers, but can share a little experience.

First, get your shooting rests, hold, trigger squeeze, and the particulars involving how to properly bag/hold the particular rifle rifle squared away. For example, never put the front rest of a levergun up on the forward part of the forend. Jacketed ammo is a good way to set a standard and evaluate your rifle and technique.

Vertical is due to burn inconsistencies. In the extreme, this can be caused by ignition problems, powder charge below it's efficient zone, inconsistent neck tension, primer seating, etc. The last couple inches of vertical are usually tunable with powder charge, indicating it was muzzle exit timing and barrel whip being on the ragged edge of a node. If you get vertical and very narrow horizontal, that's good.....start making very small increases in powder charge (.2 grain at a time) and see if you can't sneak up on the node and close the group down to a hole.

Horizontal not related to the bedding, rests, or trigger can often be a harmonic issue again, adjust powder to see if they either go vertical or close up into a round hole.

Flyers can be caused by just about anything. If you're sure you have the basics squared away, carefully cull brass that caused flyers and take a serious look at bullet weight, bullet uniformity (dimensions), and LUBE. Sometimes you just have to change one thing and go see what happens, as is often the case with lube....or dry-patch between each shot and see if that fixes regular flyers, the ones that can occur about once every five shots. Seen this a bunch in lube testing, sometimes ten shot groups would print two tight groups, one with 7-8 holes and one with 2-3. Some lube-related flyers occurred only one to two times in 20 rounds, but were consistent.

If it's a shotgun pattern but the rifle shoots jacketed well, or shoots low-velocity cast well, you're most likely damaging the bullet in the first half-inch of its travel, and fixing that problem is what a lot of this thread has been about, at least from my perspective, Runfiverun's, and 45 2.1's.

If you can shoot round, evenly dispersed, ten shot groups at 100 yards you're doing a lot of things right, but need to fine-tune your ammunition or change to a different powder. If you're getting 2" groups because of several wild flyers surrounding a sub-moa group, you have a lot more work to do at the loading bench to find and fix your ammunition inconsistencies.

This advice is general, there will be exceptions, and there are plenty of other causes, but as a guideline I have found it to be true.

Gear

Thanks Gear! I've got all those groups at one time or another... except the sub-MOA ones. Your help is very much appreciated!

[detox]

Shotgun patterns can result from a fouled barrel. Poor lube or not enough lube can cause this. There should be a small lube star on end of barrel after shooting.

[runfiverun]

by small he means none or almost none.
a wet bore is not a big help, especially when that wetness builds up or dries out.
balance, balance...

[Bjornb]

Well, they closed my XCB testing thread, just as I was getting warmed up. Or should I say cooled down; shooting season is just about to start here in SoFla.

I recently acquired 2 new to me XCB rifles: Btroj's "Rainbow rifle" and Goodsteel's "Felix". These 2 rifles have barrels in 12, 14 and 17 twists respectively (Felix is a switch barrel rifle), opening up some new avenues for us who are interested in this kind of shooting.

There's a bullet that has gotten little attention from me in the quest for high velocity: the MP 30 SIL, designed by 45 2.1. However, this was the bullet that btroj shot exclusively in the Rainbow rifle, and I decided to try duplicating some of his loads.

I did just that yesterday, and I'll be posting the results this weekend. I had to leave town for work so no computer/picture posting access. Hint: the 30 SIL did well.

I'll post in Geargnasher's original XCB thread over in Special Projects.

[cainttype]

Bjorn, I've been told that your thread will be opened again... after some "clean-up".
The sooner, the better. I'd like to see you able to keep all your test results and data in the same thread. It is the best option, by far, for interested members to be able to follow the test results of everyone currently participating in the XCB game.

[Bjornb]

Bjorn, I've been told that your thread will be opened again... after some "clean-up".
The sooner, the better. I'd like to see you able to keep all your test results and data in the same thread. It is the best option, by far, for interested members to be able to follow the test results of everyone currently participating in the XCB game.

Thanks AJ, that's good news. Yes I would like to keep everything in that thread, it makes for a less schizophrenic reading experience.

[geargnasher]

Thanks AJ, that's good news. Yes I would like to keep everything in that thread, it makes for a less schizophrenic reading experience.

....not to mention it would keep THIS thread and the original XCB thread "less schizophrenic" with OT/complaint posts.

Gear

[Bjornb]

Very true Ian. My test thread must have the record for most closures. Not much to be proud of.....

[RED333]

Very true Ian. My test thread must have the record for most closures. Not much to be proud of.....

By no fault of yours.

[runfiverun]

definitely no fault of Bjorns.

[leeggen]

About time both threads got back to talking about shooting, I have been waiting awhile. Thanks guys you all rock.
CD

[Hannibal]

definitely no fault of Bjorns.


You're not kidding. The man has the patience of a saint. And, apparently, the disposition to match.

[dtknowles]

Yes, Look forward to reading more of Bjorn's testing. I like the way he writes, shoots, tests, etc. Me personally, I have gone back to lower velocities, I could not get the kind of accuracy I wanted in my gun at those velocities but I am glad someone is pushing the envelope.

Tim

[cainttype]

Very true Ian. My test thread must have the record for most closures. Not much to be proud of.....

In that case, it must also have the record for surviving interruptions/closures... because it is open again, and that's a good thing.
There are many members here that will appreciate, and look forward to, being able to follow your test results (good or bad).
Maybe your bump here will breathe new life into this thread, too. There's never too many good ideas to consider, and both threads simply add to the wealth of information contained in the forum's data base.

[alamogunr]

Can someone post a link? This is the only thread that I have followed. Search gives me too many results for XCB.

[Bjornb]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252332-Testing-the-30XCB