high velocity with cast.

[Doc Highwall]

Here is a good article about case prep for precision shooting.

http://www.6mmbr.com/JGcaseprep.html

This is the Redding neck bushing die that I use for cast bullet shooting.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/eq_dies_detail.asp?ItemID=4

[45 2.1]

how do I measure if brass sized to much by dies.

Take your sized case, take out (anything easily removed) and put the case in the chamber.... insert pinky or tool into the primer pocket and see how much it wiggles in the chamber.

[45 2.1]

Wonder which of the variables discussed within this thread could have cause the below effects on accuracy?

126282 126283

Anyone wish to take a stab at it? These loads was HV

Looks like 30 XCB targets from another thread.......... Accuracy? What accuracy are you talking about..... not much to see there. Please guys, you have your own thread, don't try to turn this one into a clone of it. It isn't about any boolit or gun...........................

[dtknowles]

how do I measure if brass sized to much by dies.

I like to make two measurements comparing unsized fired cases to a case sized with the neck expander removed. First measure the necks, you learn two things here, how loose the neck of your chamber is and how much too much your die sizes the neck of the brass. Second deburr a washer that has hole about the diameter of the body of the case and see how far it drops down on the two different cases. To me this is easier than trying to get good measurements on a case body but if you have precision v-blocks and a dial indicator measure the case at the shoulder and midway down the body.

To really do this right you should properly set up your FL sizing die not just run it in until it hits the shell holder. Run it down on the shell holder and then back it out half a turn size a fired case (no neck expander) and then try it in the gun and if it chambers without resistance back the die out another quarter a turn and repeat (with another unsized fired case) until you get some resistance. Keep backing the die out until the case won't chamber. The right setting is between some resistance and won't chamber. I have never seen it but if the die is perfect you actually won't ever get to won't chamber (the resistance will go up and then drop away) because an unsized fired case will chamber and if it is not oversizing the brass it will not push the shoulder forward enough to keep the once fired sized case from chambering.

Tim

[Larry Gibson]

The Redding competition bushing dies are certainly top drawer. However I use the standard Redding Bushing dies with absolute satisfaction.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I also have the Lee collet die for the .308W but it doesn't give you quite the control on neck tension that the bushing dies do.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Yes, it is....... for benchrest shooting in a rifle capable of shooting under 1/2 MOA. For most things, it will not matter. Da trooph. I've done very well by sorting according to times fired and how it feels in the FL die or separate, expanding/bellmouth die. Sorting by neck tension alone after the first resize/fireform/partial size will really cut group size. I usually uniform primer pocket depth and always trim to uniform length and knock the high spots off of the neck, but rarely find any other special case prep of much benefit for most "under an inch" shooting.

There are some other things that make a difference also, but IF you can get this brass, take advantage of it. Would you elaborate on that a little? What "other things" do you consider when selecting a batch of brass, and what do you do to it as a matter of initial preparation and maintenance during subsequent firings in the same gun?



There are already other threads accommodating that..... and since you posted in them, you know where they are. If you want to argue and disrupt here... please go elsewhere. Mike: Bob is embarking on a step by step journey through the loading process here, it is both pedantic and essential to success at HV. The discussion requires active and relevant input from the members to demonstrate that they fully understand the purpose and importance of each process, otherwise this is yet another waste of time. This is a rare chance for everyone to begin discovering the things they've been doing that have been holding back their HV accuracy, or really good accuracy at any speed, please don't screw it up or muddy things with a bunch of currently irrelevant items.

Reading group patterns is a slightly more advanced concept and is only useful after most of the pertinent things in the present discussion are worked out....plus a few more....Speaking of that.........Bob, you mentioned a few more important things NOT being on the list that is currently being discussed, I assume you will point those out to everyone at an appropriate time?

Gear

[dtknowles]

I have heard that the Lee collet dies have done well too.
But I have not tried these maybe someone can throw their two cents in.

Not knocking Dtknowles earlier post at all I have done his method works well in my opinion.

I was just sharing for those without bushing dies, I have RCBS bushing dies for my two benchrest rifles. They are the way to go, specially if you neck turn.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Reading group patterns is a slightly more advanced concept and is only useful after most of the pertinent things in the present discussion are worked out....plus a few more....Speaking of that.........Bob, you mentioned a few more important things NOT being on the list that is currently being discussed, I assume you will point those out to everyone at an appropriate time?

Gear

I am an amateur at group reading. I generally attribute horizontal dispersions to wind, vertical to velocity or harmonics and my special favorite the two touching here, two or three touching over there to neck tension or distance off the lands, Lube or brass problems. Lastly the one shot not in the group, I am going to start segregating brass that does that and see if I can make them go away, if you won't shoot into the group you go into the penalty box or maybe back to the minors, for some the one shot flier is a lube purging thing but I am barely getting any lube on my muzzle so for me that is not it.

oh, I forgot, not really sure how to deal with the shooter error problems, they can be all over the map but of course I don't have any of those problems :-)

Tim

[cbrick]

Take your sized case, take out (anything easily removed) and put the case in the chamber.... insert pinky or tool into the primer pocket and see how much it wiggles in the chamber.

Yes this. In addition when doing this check I also smoke the case (neck, shoulder, base) with a carbide lamp, a magic marker can also be used, your looking to see where the contact is. Your looking for the case to be fully seated (chambered) in the chamber without movement. If the rear of the case has room to move around it is sitting on the bottom of the chamber and the center line of the bullet is angled to the center line of the bore.

Rick

[Larry Gibson]

It's not difficult as some would have us to "read" groups. The problems arise when you try to read just one group, especially if of insufficient sample size. If we know the accuracy potential (cone of fire) of a rifle we can read a group with a sample size of 10 shots easy enough, especially if there is a majority of shots grouping and one or more flyers. Those flyers tell us something especially if they are outside the expected cone of fire. We can also take note of vertical and/or horizontal string with 10 shot groups if they are out side the cone of fire. Any shots that are inside the cone of fire really don't tell us anything other than they shot well.

Example; let's say we have an expected 1 1/2 moa cone of fire with a load using 4350 powder and we want to see if RL22 will give us better accuracy at a higher velocity. We work up loads with RL22 using 10 shot test groups. The best group at a higher velocity has 7 shots in 1.1 moa with 3 shots going high opening the group up with the ES of the group being 2.2 moa. Just from looking at the group we might suspect vertical stringing. However the ES of the RL load is within 5 fps of the 4350 load. So we shoot a group with the 4350 load and it goes into a nice roundish 1.4 moa group. So is the load stringing vertically? Should we waste more time on RL22? I wouldn't. The 2.2 moa RL22 group is probably what that load is going to do. Shooting another 2 - 3 10 shot groups with that load would probably show that. The supposed vertical stringing was in reality caused by the random dispersion of the shots within the cone of fire.


It's a waste of time analyzing 3 or 5 shot groups unless used as initial work up.

Larry Gibson

[cainttype]

this thread is about DISCUSSING High velocity with Cast Boolits.
ANYTHING beyond that discussion will be removed.
ANYTHING detrimental to the discussion will be viewed as trolling or baiting by myself [and other mod's]

it's an open thread.
mixing powders, Duplex type loads, fillers, alloys, buffers, etc. can be discussed.


INTERPRETING THE WRITTEN INFORMATION IS AT THE USERS RISK.
THIS IS NOT A RELOADING OR INSTRUCTION MANUAL,,, REMEMBER IT IS A DISCUSSION !!!!
NOT AN ARGUEMENT!
ANY PERSONAL ATTACKS WILL BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE RULES!
[PERIOD]


This thread has been open to discussion to all members, regardless of the type firearm they use for a test bed, from the beginning. EVERYONE was welcomed to participate and discuss ANY aspect of HV with cast and their experiences, in an effort to disseminate information.
r5r reiterated the OPEN discussion concept weeks ago in the above quoted post #203.
For 3 months now, there was never any mention of excluding non-standard factory firearms. On the contrary, most of this thread's contributors are using, or have used either custom or rebarreled firearms.
Any attempt to limit the scope of the discussion and impose arbitrary rules dictating what is, and is not allowed to be discussed (by anyone other than r5r), is an attempt at "hijacking".


I encourage everyone to follow R5R's instructions in this regard. If he decides to change the scope of the discussion, fine... But no one else has any right to interfere with his expressed intent.

[Bjornb]

I would very much welcome some of Runfiverun's techniques into the conversation. Most of the shooters who have been following this journey already know how I do it, and Larry Gibson has also been forthcoming about his prep. So has Gear, who is very active in HV development. I realize it's cold in Idaho, but I for one would very much like to know R5R's choices of components and what he prioritizes as far as getting his bullets launched straight and true.

[cbrick]

I do stesp listed with fired brass. after minimum sizing I put in chamber and still wobble. do I need new special dies? also I put uniform in lapua primer pocket and materal was removed. did not think that would happen.

More than likely your chamber, not the dies but a die that sizes less could help as would neck sizing.

I uniform primer pockets with the Sinclair tool which reams them to SAMMI maximum depth. Haven't found a case yet that it didn't remove brass. Pressure inside the case is in every direction which includes against the web, with all but the weakest loads the primer pocket will get slightly shallower with each firing. Cleaning the primer pockets with the Sinclair uniforming tool will remove a slight amount of brass each time and keep the pockets at uniform depth.

Rick

[dtknowles]

I do stesp listed with fired brass. after minimum sizing I put in chamber and still wobble. do I need new special dies? also I put uniform in lapua primer pocket and materal was removed. did not think that would happen.

Was material removed from all the Lapua brass? I would expect so since it is generally very uniform. What brand cutter was used. It looks to me like your tool takes the pockets to max depth. How far below flush are the primers when they are seated to the bottom of the pocket? Sorry for the repeat, looks like Cbrick beat me to it.

Tim

[runfiverun]

keep it on track.
I had to dig this one out of the trash wipe it off and jump on the dents to get it mostly flat.
anymore bickering or sidetracking and I'm sure it will be gone forever.

this thread isn't here to help me, and the rest of the staff could care less about the subject.

[geargnasher]

Well, thanks anyway.

Gear

[runfiverun]

Heck Ian.
I think the thread is worth saving and all of the discussions are worth having, I know we are pretty famous for sidetracking and thread drift and I'm fine with that.
but the under the breath jabs [from everyone] and such are not helping.
the more this is done, the more better techniques will be developed.
and judging from the number of p.m.'s I've got about this one thread being closed.... the world is watching.
otherwise I would have left it where it was.

[Love Life]

I'm all ears...or eyes since the written word is the medium here.

[Bjornb]

I'm all ears...or eyes since the written word is the medium here.

+1...

[s mac]

I too have been following this thread, glad it's back.

[ballistim]

deleted

[runfiverun]

Tim we all started somewhere.
I didn't even have the internet to fall back on when I first started.
I was damn fortunate this grumpy old man named Parker liked me and let me hang around his Salt Lake gun shop back in my H.S. days.
too bad I didn't get more time with him.

[ballistim]

Tim we all started somewhere.
I didn't even have the internet to fall back on when I first started.
I was damn fortunate this grumpy old man named Parker liked me and let me hang around his Salt Lake gun shop back in my H.S. days.
too bad I didn't get more time with him.

I had someone who took the time to get me started, but I only knew the basics before joining here, you and others here have opened doors to me as far as the possibilities of cast being equal or often superior to jacketed. Everyday I learn something new and value threads such as this one, and appreciate that I'm able to learn here from others such as yourself who have developed casting into what it has become without what is now available to me here. I'll shut up now so this thread can get back on track ;-)

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks for bringing this thread back. With the help of this thread, I have been able to get some pretty decent velocities, a hair under 2300fps in my 10 twist M700 30-06 with excellent accuracy, moa at 100 yds shooting 20 shot groups. I ventured into trying ladders of slower powders, 3100, Varget, and 4064, and it paid off. This is something I had never done before with cast in rifles. I had been using the tried & true 4759, 5744, 2400 etc. previously. Had a few surprises along the way too. I found that the ubiquitous Lee C312-155 is a good one in my rifle at "higher" velocities. 2700fps it isn't, but this is the fastest I have gone so far with good accuracy. Again, many thanks for all the good info here.

[runfiverun]

shooter:
the LEE boolit is an excellent design.
if LEE had left it alone as Ed had designed it, it would be an even better one.
I should have got one of the HM-2 molds when they were being offered, as I know for a fact they were cut from ED's original design [with a couple of very slight with his approval modifications] and feature a better throat fit.
there are some old walt melander [nei] molds floating around that were cut to ED's original design too.
I wouldn't hesitate to grab one of those if I ever seen one either.

[ShooterAZ]

Yeah, that boolit has been working for me. I'm not quite done playing with it yet either. I have a stash of Lake City 68 Match brass I have been using for this project, its very consistent uniform brass. I trimmed to length brass 1x fired in my rifle, and neck sized with RCBS neck size die. I used the Lee expander, and kiss crimp with the FCD. The slower powders & Lee boolit were an eye opener. No rocket science here, but it's been a lot of fun. I was bummed when I saw the thread gone, but knew why.

[geargnasher]

Use the "correct" alloy/bullet weight/powder/charge weight combination for the velocity you're trying to achieve, use a bullet that fits the rifle, and assemble it correctly, not much more to it that that other than slight tweaks here and there. The devil is in learning what to use for what and how to fit and assemble. Once you get it right once, though, it's easier to do in other rifles.

Gear

[ShooterAZ]

Speaking of what to use for what, I thought I would share what didn't work for me at my attempts at "higher" velocity. The RCBS 165 Sil. While I got excellent accuracy between 1900-2000fps, going much beyond that the groups opened up so much that I was concerned about shooting them over my crony. I thought maybe I would find another node beyond that...but no such luck. Back to the drawing board. Still having fun.

[pls1911]

I'm not sure why you'd want faster than 1900-2000, but if you'd heat treat that RCBS 165-SIL bullet to mid 20s bhn and slightly engrave the rifling, it should do fine. If your bore is oversized enough to not engrave, then powdercoat the bullet, reheat treat, check/lube as normal ... .312 ( yes extra lube isn't needed, but I do it inasmuch as I'm already there to seat the check).
I've sent a few thousand downrange with good results in several TC barrels, nand even oversized Savage 340s.

[ShooterAZ]

I'm not sure why you'd want faster than 1900-2000 Well this is a thread about high velocity with cast, but if you'd heat treat that RCBS 165-SIL bullet to mid 20s bhn and slightly engrave the rifling, it should do fine. If your bore is oversized enough to not engrave, then powdercoat the bullet, no thanks to powder coating, reheat treat, check/lube as normal ... .312 312? My Mold cast at a hair over .310 with lino ( yes extra lube isn't needed, but I do it inasmuch as I'm already there to seat the check).
I've sent a few thousand downrange with good results in several TC barrels, nand even oversized Savage 340s.

I'm not so sure this boolit is very suited to high velocity, at least in my rifle anyway. I did a lot of testing with it.

[45 2.1]

Most of the problem with the boolits that shoot OK at under 1,800 fps is that THEY ARE UNDERSIZE for the throat and barrel. That RCBS 308-165-sil will shoot quite well at HV when you put it in the French semi-autos or the tight bored Swiss rifles.

[smokeywolf]

One of 3 or 4 reasons bore riders tend to do well; less wiggle room in the throat/lead.

smokeywolf

[ShooterAZ]

The 311299 is next on my list to test. I get very good results at lower velocities, gonna try pushing it a little faster.

[runfiverun]

45's post proves that the fit is super important to getting things working just right.

I have worked the rcbs silh boolit 16 different directions in the 308 it was theee boolit I started with when doing the non-linear at velocity testing, in conjunction with the start of my lube testing.
so many years ago....
anyway I was off work at the time and expecting to go back, so I had time to kill.
I burned up over 24 pounds of 4895 in a 3 month period...[shows I'm a slow learner :lol:]

45 designed a similar boolit but with a properly designed front driving band that would prove superior in a tight throated 30 cal rifle.[especially the K-31's]
if it had just a bit more bearing length it could do quite well in the 308 rifles too.

your first two rules to getting past the hump.
the boolits shape [static fit]
and getting it into the barrel straight, before accelerating it.
focus on those two things and everything else will fall into place with a little effort, thought, and some shooting.

[45 2.1]

45 designed a similar boolit but with a properly designed front driving band that would prove superior in a tight throated 30 cal rifle.[especially the K-31's]
if it had just a bit more bearing length it could do quite well in the 308 rifles too.

your first two rules to getting past the hump.
the boolits shape [static fit]
and getting it into the barrel straight, before accelerating it.
focus on those two things and everything else will fall into place with a little effort, thought, and some shooting.

It does quite well in the 308 Lamar, at velocity. I hesitate to post pictures or say exactly what was done as it would start a problem here. There is more to it than the last statement you made also.

[ShooterAZ]

Why would posting some pictures and explaining how it was done "start a problem here"? I don't understand. I'm here to continue learning.

[runfiverun]

yeah Bob there is more to it, but that's where the journey starts.
remember we ain't talking about the last 300 fps here.
we are talking about getting a toe-hold into how to get started through the first couple of barriers.
measuring the throat and neck area is step one of course.
but then you have to figure out what to do with that information.
and how to make the second/third steps work in what you find from measuring the rifle.

look at the shooting done recently and reported here.
just a powder change increased his success.
he is now gonna try a different boolit.
he is going to get an education from that one swap and should see why one boolit gives velocity and retains accuracy while another one doesn't, just by placing the two side by side, and looking at his pound slug [if he has one]
if not that should give him a rough idea of his rifles throat shape and what is needed in a boolits design to help him along.

[geargnasher]

Launching a cast bullet at higher pressure/velocity than normal is a dynamic, almost living process. It must be conceived, nurtured, guided, and pushed. If one part of the process breaks down (alloy doesn't behave properly, bullet isn't supported in the right places, pressure isn't applied at the right times or made to rise in a consistent manner through proper dynamic fit/resistance/flow), then you end up with a derelict coming out of the muzzle. A lot happens in that first half-inch of travel, and it has to happen a certain way with the proper effects for consistent, HV accuracy....that's more along the lines of that "last 300 fps", but getting it right at lower velocities (and using different components to make it RIGHT) will make for tiny groups, much smaller than most are used to seeing even at 1800 fps.

So what are these things? Post 572 outlines it. Every velocity window in a given system has a different set of needs for optimal consistency. Some, due to harmonics of the system, are automatically "out". That's where you pick and choose a powder to work around harmonics but still work WITH the fluid alloy. Or alter the alloy to work with the powder chosen. Fit is fit, pretty much at any speed, although like Bob mentioned, you can get away with a lot of things at lower speeds than you can at higher ones. Just because you "got away with it" at 18-1900 fps doesn't mean you will at 2400, or even 2100. That's where most people get stymied, because they don't know what they're doing wrong, and still conceive of "fit" as a static thing, not the dynamic thing that it really is.

Here are a couple of important concepts:

The combination of dynamic fit and alloy characteristics work for or against consistent powder burn. Think of the bullet as a "load" against which the powder "works". Inconsistencies in powder burn rate caused by improper resistance of the lead alloy and/or dynamic bullet fit cause a snowball effect of other factors to which jacketed bullet shooters are unaccustomed.

The bullet is controlled putty. Static fit with the throat, neck fit, static boreline centering, and what powder is used to push the bullet are beginning steps. Figuring out what you need to do TO the bullet metal through this process, the dynamic part, gets you further along the process. The bullet needs to be made out of the right stuff to make the powder burn correctly, consistently, and get itself straight into the bore. Yep, the bullet is going to change shape when it's fired. The success or failure of groups depends on how well you set the system up to change it to a concentric shape exactly the same way every time. All these things have to work together, and just exactly how to make that happen optimally is slightly different each time you step up the velocity.

Gear

[geargnasher]

One more thing about the launch: Using an alloy of sufficient strength to resist deformation in the throat, and powder of low enough pressure rise in the system, together with long barrels, slow rifling twist rates, and very closely matching static fit between throat and bullet has proven to be pretty effective at getting 1.5-2moa groups at over 3K fps......but. Yes, there's a "but". Extremely hard alloys and slow-burning powders introduce a variable that I don't know how to get around without changing one, the other, or both: Consistent ignition and bullet movement. Jacketed bullets, even paper-jacketed ones, have a more "even" friction with the bore steel than do lubricated lead-alloy bullets. Once that linotype or other hard, brittle alloy is punched through the throat, it suddenly yields and the bore friction goes away almost completely. Any little variance in lubricant deposit, powder fouling, bore temperature, any number of things changes the bullet's acceleration rate slightly through different points in the bore, which leads to who knows when in the barrel "whip" cycle the bullet will actually emerge.

Another downside to hard, brittle bullets is abrasion of the engraves on the bearing side of the lands. Linotype in particular "flakes off" when abraded. "Balanced" alloys, i.e. pseudo-eutectic ones like Lyman #2, are "tough" and resist flaking yet are malleable, but aren't necessarily shear stable. So if you use hard, brittle alloys and launch them so that they can't get deformed in the throat by keeping chamber pressure below alloy yield strength until fully engraved, you haven't fixed all the problems that ruin groups, you only fixed one, which is the crooked launch. There are other ways to get that bullet straight into the bore and still achieve some "load" all the way through the gun so that friction and barrel time is consistent shot-to-shot, and learning those ways is the only way I got past the first big hurdle. Figure out how to launch the bullet straight so that it's balanced in flight, then figure out how to make its trip through the rifle the same way each shot, then figure out how to keep those two things going at higher and higher velocity. That's your challenge.

Gear

[runfiverun]

and then just to screw it all up you change the oal of the round and change that dynamic pressure rise through engraving pressure spikes.

[Yodogsandman]

and then just to screw it all up you change the oal of the round and change that dynamic pressure rise through engraving pressure spikes.

So, are you saying that OAL is NOT a constant through the velocity "steps"? That it must be adjusted to the velocity at each "step"?

[geargnasher]

Yodog, it's just one more thing we can manipulate, or can screw us up when focusing on other things if we don't know what effect various amounts of "jump" have on a given system. Just be aware that OAL, in a general sense, should be on "the list" somewhere.

Gear

[Yodogsandman]

My standard operating procedure has been to play with the OAL for accuracy after I feel that I've peaked out velocity wise with a particular powder. If I don't get the accuracy I want, I move on to a different powder. But then, I'm a newbee to HV and just trying to figure out where OAL should be on the list.

[Bjornb]

Guys,
I am very short on theory but I am long on range time, so for me this journey has been one of trial and error to find out what works. In short here is what has worked for me and is now producing consistent groups in the 2300-2800 fps range (not counting the extra powder capacity attained with a breech seater):

1. A good quality target rifle, with a long barrel and a slow enough twist to keep RPM down at the higher speeds. I shoot the XCB cartridge, but others have been shooting other 30-cal cartridges with similar results so that is not overly important.

2. All my brass is prepped using every bench rest tool and procedure I have knowledge of. Not counting the actual forming of the brass, where there are differing opinions about the best forming sequence, I weigh the cases into lots of +- 1 grain, turn the necks, uniform the flash holes and primer pockets, and neck size using a custom shortened Lee collet die. Then I run a brass brush wrapped with 0000 steel wool inside the necks before each loading. I anneal the cases every 3 loadings. I have 300 cases for this rifle with another 300 ready for fire forming.

3. The bullets I shoot (NOE 165 XCB) have been cast from various alloys. Water dropped Lyman #2 works fine up through about 2600 fps, while Linotype has survived all the way to 3300 fps. They are inspected and culled, then weighed and sorted into lots of +-.3 grains. I used to segregate all the way down to +-.1 grains, but expanding that to .3 hasn't shown any difference in group sizes. Hornady gas checks are seated in a Lyman 4500 with the gas check seater. Then I pan lube with White Label 2700+, using a Kake Kutter to get the bullets out before the lube gets too hard. Sizing is done in a Lee push-thru die modified to .3105 inches. This gives an exact throat fit in the rifle, lead shaving occurs when the bullets are sized .311.

4. Bullets are seated using an RCBS competition seating die. It has an internal sliding bushing and a "window" on the side of the die. The bushing makes it possible to mate the bullet with the case without any neck expander being necessary. The neck has been sized to an ID of .307, and the .310 bullet slides in without any shaving or pressure being exerted. I seat the bullets long, allowing the closing of the bolt to push the nose into the lands. This rifle likes this seating with this particular bullet. YMMV.

That's really all there is to it. A good rifle, plus paying attention to detail in the reloading process, is what has yielded some pretty good results for me. As for powder selections, that's of course the big variable, and the one where I'll probably be striving for perfection for a long time to come.

[45 2.1]

The benchrest route was done a few decades ago by the CBA guys. Yep, they found out what it does, just like you did Bjorn.......but they didn't find the accuracy (good decent accuracy to us, not to them) they were already getting, so it became a failed experiment to them and old news to quite a few people here. It isn't the only way there and it certainly doesn't out accuracy the others ways either. I suspect people want to shoot their current factory rifles with the standard 10" twist at high velocity with good decent results also.......without kicking in several hundred dollars (at a minimum) to get like results. Several people here do that very thing..... some with the same accuracy you got and some with better accuracy. When you can do it with several calibers, THEN you have a good handle on just what is important and what is not.

[DR Owl Creek]

...
the LEE boolit is an excellent design.
if LEE had left it alone as Ed had designed it, it would be an even better one.
I should have got one of the HM-2 molds when they were being offered, as I know for a fact they were cut from ED's original design [with a couple of very slight with his approval modifications] and feature a better throat fit.
there are some old walt melander [nei] molds floating around that were cut to ED's original design too.
I wouldn't hesitate to grab one of those if I ever seen one either.


There is an "interest thread" going on now on the NOE Forum for a rerun of the .312" 160gr mould, just like Ed Harris originally designed it for NEI, before Lee made the changes to suit their production methods. Ed Harris has approved of the proposed NOE design rerun, and has given it his "blessing" (his term, not mine), and has made other comments on the thread regarding the nose design and taper. To see that thread, or to join in, go to: http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,472.0.html

Dave

[Bjornb]

The benchrest route was done a few decades ago by the CBA guys. Yep, they found out what it does, just like you did Bjorn.......but they didn't find the accuracy (good decent accuracy to us, not to them) they were already getting, so it became a failed experiment to them and old news to quite a few people here. It isn't the only way there and it certainly doesn't out accuracy the others ways either. I suspect people want to shoot their current factory rifles with the standard 10" twist at high velocity with good decent results also.......without kicking in several hundred dollars (at a minimum) to get like results. Several people here do that very thing..... some with the same accuracy you got and some with better accuracy. When you can do it with several calibers, THEN you have a good handle on just what is important and what is not.

The CBA guys are still doing the Bench Rest Route. Read the Fouling Shot, their magazine, and you'll see that rifles in 30 BR, many with slow twists, pretty much clean up the CBA matches. I think they are OK with their accuracy. 5/8" groups are another day at the office for the top competitors.

[btroj]

Well, here goes the thread. Again

[Love Life]

I would like to shoot high velocity with cast in my 10 twist 308 barrel so I am very much paying attention to this thread.

[ShooterAZ]

I suspect people want to shoot their current factory rifles with the standard 10" twist at high velocity with good decent results also.......without kicking in several hundred dollars (at a minimum) to get like results. Several people here do that very thing..... some with the same accuracy you got and some with better accuracy.

This is correct, at least for me. I want to work with what I already have at the moment. I can't think of any reasons why not to completely wring this out. The techniques can be applied across the board no matter what rifle you have.

[btroj]

This is correct, at least for me. I want to work with what I already have at the moment. I can't think of any reasons why not to completely wring this out. The techniques can be applied across the board no matter what rifle you have.

I agree entirely. If it works in a factory rifle it certainly will work in a BR type rifle.

What I want to see more about is how to know what alloy to use, and when. How can we tell if our alloy is "working" right or not? I would love to be able to catch bullets largely unharmed but my clay berms don't allow that.

I do know that I will be using the alloy Bob suggested.

[Love Life]

You can tell if your alloy is working right by shooting. Same with any other theory you may have.

[btroj]

True, but how does a guy know which way to go with the alloy? Is it too soft or too hard?

It is in understanding HOW to read the signs that makes the difference. What are those signs and what do they mean?

[Love Life]

Experiment up and down. Use the scientific method. There comes a point where the pad and paper need to be left to go enjoy some practical application.

[ballistim]

deleted

[Larry Gibson]

Experiment up and down. Use the scientific method. There comes a point where the pad and paper need to be left to go enjoy some practical application.

Now isn't that the truth!

If one follows the conventional "wisdom" of this thread you will take a year + to "get to know your rifle", expend 1500 - 2000+ rounds trying to shoot cast at high velocity with your 10" twist factory rifle and in the end you will still find accuracy (even 5 shot groups under 2 moa) to be a difficult thing to produce consistently above 2200 fps. And after expending all the time and components what do you have? Is 2200 fps really your idea of "high velocity" or do you really want to get up into 2500 - 2800+ fps? Posts 583 & 584 give you all the reasons your not going to shoot cast bullets accurately at 2500 - 2800+ fps. Bjorn's post 589 tells you how you can easily shoot cast bullets at the high velocity of 2500 - 2800 fps based on actual results not theoretical pontification. I also have been posting for some time on how to do that.

Before you give the excuse of "it costs too much to rebarrel" figure the cost based on geargnasher's estimate as posted earlier of those 1500 - 2000 rounds (cost to cast bullets, GCs, primers, powder, lube, new moulds, sizers, etc.), the time you spent, the number of trips to the range (gas ain't cheap) you'll need to maybe occasionally shoot a 2 moa five shot group above 2200 fps. Then consider the frustration and PITA time you will have to not accomplish what you want.

After all that figuring (my figuring comes to $700 - $1000+ depending on the value of your time and distance to the range) you should then actually price what a rebarrel costs. Can be as little as $200 - $300 or as much as you want to spend on a new barrel with a slower twist on your action. If you can do the bedding then it's probably cheaper. Then with a .30 caliber barrel of 26" length and a 14" twist you can easily get the accuracy you want and high velocity in the 2500 - 2800+ fps range. You will do that in a very short time with few components and enjoy shooting instead of beating your head against a wall. If you really want to keep your 10" twist barrel then be content with the best accuracy in the 1400 - 1900 fps range and with usable accuracy in the 2000 - 2100+ fps range. I've shown you how on other forums, no magic, no pontification.......just how to make the most of your 10 or 12" twist rifles. You also been shown how to achieve moa accuracy +/- at 2600 - 2900+ fps with 14" twist rifles. No pontification, no magic just straight forward how to do it with the results posted.

Follow proven scientific test methods and you'll get proven results. It's about that simple.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

Richard Lee's #2 manual has a very good section on alloy strength versus pressure that has been a help to me in getting high velocity.
From what little I have compared it to the RPM theory the two seem to be closely related.
I am going to take a break and catch up on things that need to be done to the motorhome, boat, and house before it gets too hot here to work outside for me. I will continue to monitor what is going on here as I'm sure I can learn from others experience.

[geargnasher]

True, but how does a guy know which way to go with the alloy? Is it too soft or too hard?

It is in understanding HOW to read the signs that makes the difference. What are those signs and what do they mean?

Basically it's big groups and/or lots of flyers or small, round groups. A guy has to figure out what Bob was trying to get us to learn about each constituent of the typical, ternary bullet alloy and what each does "for or against" us. Once that is established, it's a matter of tempering that alloy to the needs of the application, just like Rick did with his .357 Maximum revolver and reported the details on the LASC site. He used one alloy, one powder charge, and tinkered with the heat treat hardness to dial it in. He used a pretty close to right alloy to begin with, though it could have been tweaked more one way or the other and still have worked. He could also have tweaked powder burn rate and charges until he found what the alloy liked at X hardness. I think Handloader did a write up on some alloy testing with various powders in a rifle cartridge some years ago, very informative article even though the author didn't really have a solid handle on why he got the results he got, it's more complex than just "hardness", much more, as you know.

Here's a link to an 099-level description of the three main forces acting on our bullet alloy, for illustrative purposes. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stress-strain-d_950.html

Adding tin to lead changes lead's properties. Adding antimony does as well, but in a different way. Combining tin and antimony with lead causes still different changes, depending on the proportions. Then there are grain refiners like arsenic and sulfur that thrown yet another monkey wrench into the works. Tin makes lead slightly more tough by increasing it's resistance to shear. Antimony forms its own dendrites within the lead dendrite structure and makes it resistant to deformation (compression) but not too resistant to drawing (tensile) or shear forces. Tin and antimony together in approximately equal proportions within a lead alloy form their own intermetallic bond and actually behave like a different element which increases both shear and compressive strength and maintains malleability at the loss of ductility. That's all a crude explanation but should suffice. Our job becomes finding what properties are desirable for bullet metal in a given situation, formulate the alloy, and then heat treat it to the toughness required by the application. Wouldn't it be nice to have a cheat sheet for this stuff?

Gear

[45 2.1]

Bjorn's post 589 tells you how you can easily shoot cast bullets at the high velocity of 2500 - 2800 fps based on actual results not theoretical pontification. I also have been posting for some time on how to do that.

.................. you should then actually price what a rebarrel costs. Can be as little as $200 - $300 or as much as you want to spend on a new barrel with a slower twist on your action. If you can do the bedding then it's probably cheaper. Then with a .30 caliber barrel of 26" length and a 14" twist you can easily get the accuracy you want and high velocity in the 2500 - 2800+ fps range. ........................ You also been shown how to achieve moa accuracy +/- at 2600 - 2900+ fps with 14" twist rifles. No pontification, no magic just straight forward how to do it with the results posted.

Larry Gibson

Good post Larry. With that in mind we have your synopsis of the results on that method. The others will either use it or not the way they choose to. You might tell everyone where this really good quality re-barrel for the money you quoted is so they can take advantage of it...if they choose to.......... or, they can use their existing rifle to do so, without the BR preps involved. Remember, it their choice, not yours.

[Nrut]

Count me as one of those who has no interest (none) in going the re-barrel route..

[ShooterAZ]

I may re-barrel at some point in time in the future. Right now I have a Rem 700 with a pristine barrel. I don't have any pipe dreams with it, but I'm enjoying my time spent seeing what I can get from it. It has not been frustrating at all...just fun.

[Larry Gibson]

Good post Larry. With that in mind we have your synopsis of the results on that method. The others will either use it or not the way they choose to. You might tell everyone where this really good quality re-barrel for the money you quoted is so they can take advantage of it...if they choose to.......... or, they can use their existing rifle to do so, without the BR preps involved. Remember, it their choice, not yours.

45 2.1

You're right Bob, it is their choice. They can either be content to shoot cast bullets upwards of 2100 - 2200 fps out of their 10" twist rifles orthey can rebarrel if they really what to shoot cast bullets accurately at 2500- 2800+ fps like some of us are doing. Or they can continue to beat their heads against the wall trying to achieve that with their 10" twist rifles using cast bullets. I have numerous 10 and 12" twist .30 cal rifles I shoot lots of cast bullets in. I like many, many others have, over the years, attempted to get accuracy consistently above 2200 fps. It is very,very difficult and not done consistently. Some continue to pontificate and say it is easy but yet if everyone found it easy there would be no further need for this thread would there? Point is it isn't easy and most will not do it regardless of what is claimed by a select few.

I have, like many other always stated that BR techniques need to be done. That is not anything new as a couple of you would now have the non informed believe. A rehash of what has been known, said and used for years is not progress. Some of us have been conducting tests in a scientific manner and posting the results.....good, bad and indifferent. That is how we learn, that is how we progress. Pontificating the same theoretical and unproven concepts over and over again gets us no where. Only proving such concepts and theories through scientific testing with repeatable and consistent results and then sharing the results is progress.

The 14" Palma barrel cost me nothing. It was a take off barrel that was given to me because I searched for barrels as such to use. I installed it myself on a M98 action and finish chambered it myself. There are many other such take off 13 and 14" twist Palma barrels of 28 - 30"+ in length out there with the throats shot out by match shooters. They can be had for under $200 easily 9USUALLY MUCH LESS) and can be cut off and rechambered back into good clean rifling and still maintain 26"+ length. A member here has put together a group buy of 14" twist barrels for a similar price. I recently paid $400 for a top end barrel and would expect another $200 for fitting and chambering which is still a lot cheaper than all the components I shot up in multiple 10" twist barrels trying to get above 2200 fps consistently. I expect to shoot very accurately above 2700fps right out of the gate with that new barrel of 16" twist. One can find “deals” to save $s on if one only begins looking, the “deals” are still out there.

For a full retail price check; a top end Shilen Select Stainless Match barrel of Palma contour 32” in length with a 14” twist pre-threaded and chambered in .308W with a tight (.332) neck is $558. With shipping to your gunsmith and final fitting to your action you should still have less than $700 in it. That is less than all the components you shoot up trying to get above 2200 fps with consistent accuracy in your 10” twist factory barrel. So if they want to really shoot cast bullets at a higher velocity of 2500 – 2800+ fps then the choice is indeed theirs.

Larry Gibson

[Hamish]

The CBA guys are still doing the Bench Rest Route. Read the Fouling Shot, their magazine, and you'll see that rifles in 30 BR, many with slow twists, pretty much clean up the CBA matches. I think they are OK with their accuracy. 5/8" groups are another day at the office for the top competitors.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion. You know what they say about them.................

Youre doing some good illustrative work and documentation for the board, but the nasty little cracks do you a disservice.

[btroj]

I know of many shooters who will gladly spend $1000s on powder, primer, and moulds but never give thought to rebarreling. I am interested in how they can get results. I sure don't plan to rebarrel every gun I own to get the "right" twist.

Shooting up components is what most of us are here for. Many would far rather burn up those 700 bucks at the range that on a barrel. For many that is years of shooting expense.

I know one such person as I married his daughter.

[runfiverun]

there are a couple of signs you can look for to see if your alloy is up to the task.
let me clarify things just a little.
there is more than one way to get what we want here.
one is to rely on a super hard boolit [higher tin/antimony alloy] and static fitment allowing the load and case fitment to do most of the work.
another is to use a pre-slumped type boolit relying on malleability and boolit support, to allow the boolit to find it's way into the barrel before the powder accelerates it to speed. [this one does well with a lower amount of antimony and heat treatment]
one more way is what I call the run-up method it is what I use in semi-auto rifles.
this relies on just enough fitment of the body diameter but relies heavily on nose shape and diameter to center the boolit as it crosses the throat and aligns with the barrel [this does better with a harder balanced alloy #2]

but you can tell if something just isn't up to it's end of the bargain by a few subtle signs.
one is a slight poof of grey smoke at the muzzle.
anther is excessive antimonial wash in the rifle. [or wash that starts before the mid-point of the barrel]
slight grey streaks at the muzzle face is a sure sign.

you have to remember that pressure is NOT a constant thing throughout the boolits trip down the barrel it changes as the boolit moves.
this can also influence the malleability [or lack of it] needed of the boolit at certain points, or drop off enough to allow the boolit to relax at some points along the way.
[this is one of those things I talked about in the lube testing]
if the barrel is good enough to not leave any room for the boolit to relax, or cause it to fluctuate in diameter along it's journey you can easily get away with the harder alloy [harder as in more stuff in the alloy] and allow the powders push to drop off sooner.
easily 90% of off the shelf hunting rifles do not have a barrel quite that good.

a newer Remington is lucky to have the chamber cut facing the same direction as the bore.
hope this helps some.

[cbrick]

The CBA guys are still doing the Bench Rest Route. Read the Fouling Shot, their magazine, and you'll see that rifles in 30 BR, many with slow twists, pretty much clean up the CBA matches. I think they are OK with their accuracy. 5/8" groups are another day at the office for the top competitors.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion. You know what they say about them.................


Youre doing some good illustrative work and documentation for the board, but the nasty little cracks do you a disservice.

A disservice big time and completely out of character. Having a bad day are we Bjornb?

Rick

[dtknowles]

Good post Larry. With that in mind we have your synopsis of the results on that method. The others will either use it or not the way they choose to. You might tell everyone where this really good quality re-barrel for the money you quoted is so they can take advantage of it...if they choose to.......... or, they can use their existing rifle to do so, without the BR preps involved. Remember, it their choice, not yours.

I think some BR type preps can be beneficial when loading for accuracy with cast bullets and some not so much.

I think good fit of the case to the chamber are important, especially the neck so I think neck sizing with a bushing die can contribute to better accuracy and more than just a little. I also think consistent neck tension is also important so segregating cases by number of times shot or annealing or some other method of getting consistent neck tension is important. It could be as simple as a uniform crimp but I think that can damage bullets. BjornB use what I call a loose neck (I think) where the bullet can push back into the neck as it is jammed into the leade. I have used that technique and had good results sometimes.

I don't think that uniforming primer pockets and deburring flashholes or weight segregating cases adds much to accuracy until you are shooting groups under a half a MOA.

As far as needing a slower twist barrel, it depends on how fast you really want to go and how much effort you want to spend to get higher velocities. I think it is easier with a slower twist but there is a limit to what can be achieved with any twist.

Tim

[ballistim]

deleted

[geargnasher]

Larry, don't criticize people here, none of them asked for it. "pontification" and all the other negative things you say about the discussion here that involve something other than the methods you have brought up several several times is not wanted, THIS IS PART OF A LEARNING PROCESS FOR MANY. Some are trying to lead them through. Just putting up results and describing methods (as I and others have done here many times, precisely, and showing target results) is obviously not enough, as several beginning-level people have tried to emulate them and failed (LL, GS, yourself, to name a few). There are a few things that need to be learned and have been "pontificated" about in the last couple dozen posts, so live and let live as the discovery happens for those who don't know. However, if your sarcasm, sneering, and browbeating everyone that your point of view is always best doesn't stop, you're going to ruin it for everyone, for about the zillionth time. IDK, maybe that's what you want? NIH syndrome much? Jealousy? That was a little of your own medicine back at you, shouldn't be a problem, you get away with it all the time.

Gear

[Love Life]

It's nice to know I'm at beginning level, but please, keep me out of you all's long running spat. I could care less either way.

[ballistim]

deleted

[Bjornb]

A disservice big time and completely out of character. Having a bad day are we Bjornb?RickHi Rick,Having a great day! Just finished lubing a big pile of heat treated XCB bullets of 2 different alloys, together with the non-HT versions. Now I'm trying to figure out what to load them with to get a comparison to my regular alloys.As for my little comment to Mr. 45 2.1, there's nothing nasty about it. This fine gentleman never misses a chance to diss my shooting, so a reference to his opinion seems only fair and reasonable to me.

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

I'm not criticizing anyone here, I'm stating facts. I have not criticized any "other method". It is you who criticize a particular method. I point out that in all these threads members cry out, beg and plead.....show me how , show me how, give me details......yet mostly what is received is the same pontification and general reloading for accuracy (BR techniques) that has been well known for many, many years. Some of us have posted explicit detail in answering the plea's of members wanting to know "how" specifically. An example is the detailed information on shooting HV in 10 and 12" twist rifles; http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,533.0.html

Anyone interested in my own 14" twist accomplishments at 2600+ fps can look at http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,321.0.html or do a search of this forum for my results with the Palma rifle. BTW; the accuracy we have been getting consistently at 2600 - 2700+ fps has been sub moa - 1.5 moa with 10 shot test groups not the 1.5 - 2 as you always say. I have pointed out and posted numerous sub moa groups of 5 shots also (the 1st 5 shots in a test string) at the same 2600 - 2700+ fps. Bjorn has also posted numerous sub 1.5 moa 10 shot test groups at .2500 - 2900+ fps.

Repeating the same well known BR loading techniques over and over may indeed help a newbie or two. However to those begging for detailed information beyond that it does not. Continuing to post such only helps a few "catch up" but provides no progress. That was my point. Some of us are trying to give detailed information and provide some progress to those who really do want to shoot cast bullets at high velocity. You want to give your information that's fine but check your own posts; you constantly denigrate those of us who are not only shooting the same HV with accuracy as you with 10 and 12" twist rifles but are also shooting 2600 - 2900+ fps with 14" twist rifles. You don't shoot a 14" twist rifle and self admit you are stuck below 2500 fps with your rifle. So if you are stuck below 2500 fps then how is it you criticize us about our shooting at 2600 - 2900+ fps? How do you know linotype bullets wear out the throats appreciably faster than Lyman #2 alloy? Have you done a test wearing out barrels with such alloys at those velocities? Or is your criticism based on pontification of yours and a couple others speculation?

What you need to do gearganasher is simply state your case with what you have done and can demonstrate. Any facts of your own accomplishments will speak for themselves. You do not need to denigrate anyone else's accomplishments in an attempt to justify your own. As to your personal attacks I will let that slide and suggest the moderators consider it.

Larry Gibson

[Love Life]

Wasn't neck sanding discussed in the Houston Warehouse Project document?

I miss felix.

[Larry Gibson]

2100-2200 out of 10" twist rifles is where I'll be hoping to find success with a few of my better rifles for now & hopefully move on from there. I'm still able to learn from those on a higher level, I'd never become the musician that I am today had I not taken this approach and found success as a result of the hard work & study put into learning from others. I, and I'm sure others here, have an appreciation & respect for the knowledge and opinions of those with more experience as a result of their time and effort put forth, even though their opinions differ obviously! I'll learn at a lower level as I'm also able to learn from those at an advanced level. I hope I'm welcome here as a novice in this area without much to offer at this point with the understanding some day I will have something to add of value. Apologies for my lengthy post, just want to say where I'm at with all of this hopefully without trying anyone's patience.

ballistim

Welcome to the topic. 2100 - 2200 fps is not really all that difficult. You do need to follow most of the well known BR loading techniques. Use quality available components of known performance. Trying to develop a HV load while perfecting making your own GCs out of beer cans usually leads to multiple levels of frustration (example). Use a sufficient test sample size; 7 - 10 rounds. Use a quality known alloy and strive to cast quality bullets in lieu of quantity. Use an appropriate design of cast bullet for the expected velocity as not all designs are capable of consistent HV results. You might check out the thread on NOE's forum addressing 10" twist tests with the .308W. It is with an NOE bullet but others will work at 2100 - 2200 fps also;http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,533.0.html.
Larry Gibson

[ballistim]

deleted

[btroj]

One thing to also consider in the "new barrel is less money than shooting 2 K rounds" debate.

Shooting 2 K rounds does one very important thing that a new barrel doesn't do. It means you shot 2 K rounds. You leaned to make a better bullet, shoot better from a bench, and read targets and chrono data to see what is happening. Nothing can ever replace the knowledge gained at the casting, loading, or shooting bench.

[45 2.1]

As for my little comment to Mr. 45 2.1, there's nothing nasty about it. This fine gentleman never misses a chance to diss my shooting, so a reference to his opinion seems only fair and reasonable to me.

Considering you are using a benchrest rifle and methods, I suggest you go look at the CBA records for the higher classes (unlimited and the next one down from it) and note where you stand there for a proper comparison. Those stats will speak for theirselves as they were shot in competition. You have a little range time in comparison to those folks...and most of us. You have done reasonably well for the time spent, now see if what you've learned can be transferred to a normal factory rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

You miss the point 45 2.1; some of us shooting HV are shooting high velocity with accuracy......that's what Bjorn's Big Bertha rifle was built for. It's a completely different concept and not to be confused, as you apparently are, with just shooting for accuracy. Shooting for accuracy alone is independent of velocity. The point to this thread is supposed to be "High velocity with cast" as the thread title so states. I also am a CBA member and have been noting the scores as they compile. If you actually look at the majority of group sizes Bjorns's groups fit right in but at 1000 + fps higher velocity.

Bjorn is now transferring his gained knowledge of HV shooting with cast bullet to his sporter 30 XCB rifle based on a M43 Mauser. He is doing fine BTW at high velocity with it too.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

But Mike, what he was saying is much of the time barrels are NOT uniform, at all. Then what? What do you need to know about alloy selection, powder, pressure curve, and bullet lube to work with what you've got? Before I swapped the barrel to experiment with 5R rifling, I had a bone-stock, 6-lb, ten-twist, Savage .308 with a 20" barrel that shot better groups than any that Bertha EVER has, even with jacketed bullets, at 2300 fps. How? Some proper guidance, a little luck, and a pretty good idea of what matters most to getting accuracy from ANY rifle. I don't say that to brag, or rain on Bjorn's parade, or rub anyone's nose in it, I say that to point out a fact about how well you shoot cast how fast depends on what you know and how you go about doing it. I'm doing things a LOT different than Larry and Bjorn, and sometimes I get far better results. At 2800 fps? Nope, not so much in a ten twist, they got me there for sure, so far. But I shoot smaller groups out of faster twists at lower velocities doing the things I talk about here. When I see linotype bullets pounding half-inch holes at 170K rpm I might spend more time on that tack, but so far it isn't happening that way, and yes, I've been there and done that and never got it to work either. I've tried to explain these things on this thread, all the while questioning and theorizing about the things I don't understand, but am working toward learning.

If you want "quick and dirty", decent shooting at HV, there's a recipe for that. If you want to be able to shoot the kind of groups that make you an outcast and get you threatened and called a liar, stick around and learn what it takes. Took me three years. Probably should have taken fifteen minutes, but there's a difference between gaining knowledge and developing an understanding, and the knowledge alone is meaningless without understanding what to do with it. That understanding only comes through doing. Sounds like someone's sig line, doesn't it?

So, whatcha gonna do with a (for instance) factory barrel, Mike? Groups blow up above 2K fps, but you want more....you got your cases fitted, your necks dialed in, now what's next? Send it to a gunsmith? That's one option....but likely not the only one if the rifle doesn't have any major problems and already shoots well with jacketed bullets. Lots of people are in that boat, what are THEY going to do? Do you think anyone can explain how to get more out of that factory gun in one paragraph? What would they explain? What does everyone else think he should do next to get more accurate velocity with a factory rifle?

Gear

[runfiverun]

Now isn't that the truth!

If one follows the conventional "wisdom" of this thread you will take a year + to "get to know your rifle", expend 1500 - 2000+ rounds trying to shoot cast at high velocity with your 10" twist factory rifle and in the end you will still find accuracy (even 5 shot groups under 2 moa) to be a difficult thing to produce consistently above 2200 fps. And after expending all the time and components what do you have? Is 2200 fps really your idea of "high velocity" or do you really want to get up into 2500 - 2800+ fps? Posts 583 & 584 give you all the reasons your not going to shoot cast bullets accurately at 2500 - 2800+ fps. Bjorn's post 589 tells you how you can easily shoot cast bullets at the high velocity of 2500 - 2800 fps based on actual results not theoretical pontification. I also have been posting for some time on how to do that.

Before you give the excuse of "it costs too much to rebarrel" figure the cost based on geargnasher's estimate as posted earlier of those 1500 - 2000 rounds (cost to cast bullets, GCs, primers, powder, lube, new moulds, sizers, etc.), the time you spent, the number of trips to the range (gas ain't cheap) you'll need to maybe occasionally shoot a 2 moa five shot group above 2200 fps. Then consider the frustration and PITA time you will have to not accomplish what you want.

After all that figuring (my figuring comes to $700 - $1000+ depending on the value of your time and distance to the range) you should then actually price what a rebarrel costs. Can be as little as $200 - $300 or as much as you want to spend on a new barrel with a slower twist on your action. If you can do the bedding then it's probably cheaper. Then with a .30 caliber barrel of 26" length and a 14" twist you can easily get the accuracy you want and high velocity in the 2500 - 2800+ fps range. You will do that in a very short time with few components and enjoy shooting instead of beating your head against a wall. If you really want to keep your 10" twist barrel then be content with the best accuracy in the 1400 - 1900 fps range and with usable accuracy in the 2000 - 2100+ fps range. I've shown you how on other forums, no magic, no pontification.......just how to make the most of your 10 or 12" twist rifles. You also been shown how to achieve moa accuracy +/- at 2600 - 2900+ fps with 14" twist rifles. No pontification, no magic just straight forward how to do it with the results posted.

Follow proven scientific test methods and you'll get proven results. It's about that simple.

Larry Gibson

well I guess I can close the thread now..
just get yourself a new barrel, a lyman mold, throw 2% tin in your ww alloy, and be the KKKkking of the gun-range in your neighborhood.
no sense even trying to do any brass prep or measure a neck, we all been told what and how to do it [no muss no fuss] so I guess we're done here....

[ballistim]

deleted

[cainttype]

Although I had hoped to see everyone able to report methods and results for whatever worked with their personal voyage into pushing HV limits, whether in factory or non-factory rifles, including their moulds, cartridge of choice to experiment with, case prep, and whatever observations they had...Maybe it actually IS to big a subject, deals with too many variables, and rehashes too many old quarrels.

Is it possible that two totally different threads... Maybe something like "HV Pursuit Results with MILSURPS and Factory <11" Twists" could be separate from something like "HV Results 2600+ fps Using >13" Twist Rates"?
Could participants focus on RESULTS, and POST their methods and progress as time permits?
I see no reason that two completely different threads couldn't be sustained as long as the thread's intent is honored by everyone involved, because it is obvious that it will not happen here.

[Love Life]

I'm still listening so I can learn how to shoot sub-moa groups from my 10 twist 308. I have the precision reloading tools and the money to buy what else may be needed. Lets not get this one shut down yet.

If those interested will walk me through the steps, then I will apply them, document them, and post them.

It's a factory rifle with a chromed lined barrel if that helps.

This rifle was not built by a member, I have not conversed with other members in this thread in a good while, so I like to think I am on my own. Ya'll tell me to tip my brass in cat turds and I'll dip it in cat turds to see how that changes things.

Lead the way, walk me through, and lets just make this happen.

[Love Life]

Sure is Mike, Sure is.

[ballistim]

Dick Love that rifle it is just NEAT.....

I bought one in the 90's for a song, nice shooter, all my kids learned to shoot using that at the range with half-jacket Speer Plinkers and light loads. No recoil, the girls always ask if they can shoot that one whenever we have a family shoot.

[geargnasher]

I'm still listening so I can learn how to shoot sub-moa groups from my 10 twist 308. I have the precision reloading tools and the money to buy what else may be needed. Lets not get this one shut down yet.

If those interested will walk me through the steps, then I will apply them, document them, and post them.

It's a factory rifle with a chromed lined barrel if that helps.

This rifle was not built by a member, I have not conversed with other members in this thread in a good while, so I like to think I am on my own. Ya'll tell me to tip my brass in cat turds and I'll dip it in cat turds to see how that changes things.

Lead the way, walk me through, and lets just make this happen.

Great. Let's start with a picture of a pound cast, the critical dimensions of same, the bullet(s) you intend to use, and a description of how you prepare your brass so we all know what you did and how you did it for starters. Once we know your foundational techniques, a sort of prioritization of the "list" that's been proposed sporadically can be sorted out.

Gear

[Love Life]

Brass Brand: Lapua
Necks will be measured and turned for clean up
Primer pockets uniformed
Flash holes debured
Trimmed/chamfered/debured using Sinclair chamber length gauge as guide.
Weight sorted to .1 grain
Primer plugs inserted and volume weight sorted to .1 gr

Brass will also be checked for runout in the case neck, outside the case neck, the case body, and rim. Primer pockets will be checked for run out.

I will order some chamber casting alloy and get a chamber cast. Once I have my chamber cast completed then I will post the specs and we can go from there.

Edited to add: I will begin with new unfired brass. After 1st firing I will perform many of the same steps again, but will touch on sizing and neck tension. I have this cool tool that measures seating pressure.

[cbrick]

Hi Rick,Having a great day! Just finished lubing a big pile of heat treated XCB bullets of 2 different alloys, together with the non-HT versions. Now I'm trying to figure out what to load them with to get a comparison to my regular alloys.As for my little comment to Mr. 45 2.1, there's nothing nasty about it. This fine gentleman never misses a chance to diss my shooting, so a reference to his opinion seems only fair and reasonable to me.

Your results with the various alloys that were discussed some time ago is what I have been waiting on. Your results with lino are well documented, I think a comparison of the alloys with the same loads that worked would be invaluable.

Rick

[runfiverun]

chrome lining isn't a big help to cast shooting.

here's how I got to 2400 in my 308.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png
I first ascertained that this boolit was the best fit to my rifles throat shape.
I then worked my ww alloy until I was able to cast boolits that barely scuffed the 310 sizer and engraved the nose when chambered.
I water dropped from the mold because I was controlling the mold temp.
any boolits that weigh over 166.8 grs are too big around and I will muss up the driving band when I'm sizing them.
anything smaller [or weighing under 166.3grs] and the front drive band doesn't scuff the ball seat area upon chambering.
I sort the boolits into two groups one 166.6 to 166.8 and one 166.3 to 166.5
I seat the gas checks by pushing them on using my star sizer and a flat piece of steel, then I flip them over and push them through the lube sizer.
I neck size my fire-formed brass. [and push them over a 309 ball in a separate step]
I then bump the case mouth against my 8 mauser ball to slightly flair the case mouth to the exact size of my chamber and to help start the boolit in the case straight.
I'm using Remington brass that has had the primer pockets evened out, and the flash holes cut to the same size.
the cases have been annealed and fire-formed and sized a second time to try and get the same neck tension on each case.
I chose the Remington brass because it is thicker than the win and other brands of brass I had on hand, this and the mouth flair got my boolit much closer to the centerline of the barrel.
I seat the boolit out so that the front drive band is nestled just short of the throat area it mimics. [don't remember the oal right off]
my primer of choice is the federal 210 because it's strong enough without being forceful it's also quite consistent in depth and diameter, and it works well with stick type powders.
I started with H-4831-sc powder and worked the load up using a tuft of Dacron as my next step and worked in .4gr steps, shooting the non Dacron load and a Dacron added load until I seen the .4 accuracy nodes develop a I started working in just those steps [without the Dacron] once the powder started to clean up, indicating I was getting close to 50-k pressure.
once I broke 45 grs and started losing the group size I moved my oal around just a bit adjusting the accuracy node even further.
then fine tuned the load in .2 gr steps.
this got me to 2400 fps.
that was all the hassle and tribulations I went through in my 10 twist 308 rifle, I stopped at this point because I hit a superior accuracy node and other projects drew my attention away. [shrug]

[Love Life]

I misspoke. This barrel is no chrome lined. It's the rest of the gun that is all shiny.

This is about as close as I have to a factory rifle. The barrel is in good condition. Just to be up front, 1.5 MOA is what this rifle will do with match ammo so if I can match that with cast at 2400 FPS then I will claim success.

[Nrut]

R5R,
Excellent..
What did you do if anything to get mechanical fit with your brass before fire-forming so that your brass forms concentrically with the chamber?

[geargnasher]

Dick, you may find it just as easy to make a pound cast of your chamber. Casting alloy is a PITA and is only the actual chamber size one time.

I'll follow along with you in my M1A, and a rifle I bought from Bjorn that I haven't shot yet, just to see what happens.

Gear

[runfiverun]

your gonna laugh.
I partially sized the necks.
the rifle has a good straight and not oversized chamber, and the bolt holds the base of the case in alignment.
I'm pretty lucky in whatever I did [I guess] as the ammo fit's my AR-30, my ruger 77-II AWS, my s.i.l's 308, and feeds just fine through my norinco M-14 rifle.
I haven't shot it in the M-14 but it feeds and extracts from the magazine just fine.
the rounds shoot in my ruger as good as it shoots jacketed, but not as good as it shoots it's pet cast load.

I musta got lucky with the 223 rounds at 2800 fps too, they shoot well in my Armalite, both of my stags [one a 9 twist and the other is an 8 twist 6-H], and also do well in my sil's M-4 bushmaster.

one thing I have noticed is that you can get a good rifle to shoot fast with a little work but one with a crooked chamber or a bad barrel will fight you from start until you finish in disgust.
I have had some modest success with a Remington 700 in 8 mauser but it steadfastly refuses to shoot jacketed bullets in groups any smaller than 1-1/2" consistently.
I can do slightly better with the cast molds I have but I'm limited to about 2100 fps so far.
I may have to quit using my 32 win special mold and try something else [besides the 140gr loverign mold I have]but at 2000 fps it just hammers deer with that 32 win boolit.
so do I give up?
get it re-barreled? [perfect xcb rifle]
use it as is and move along to something else, or start measuring stuff and then decide...

[Bjornb]

here's how I got to 2400 in my 308.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png
I first ascertained that this boolit was the best fit to my rifles throat shape.
I then worked my ww alloy until I was able to cast boolits that barely scuffed the 310 sizer and engraved the nose when chambered.
I water dropped from the mold because I was controlling the mold temp.
any boolits that weigh over 166.8 grs are too big around and I will muss up the driving band when I'm sizing them.
anything smaller [or weighing under 166.3grs] and the front drive band doesn't scuff the ball seat area upon chambering.
I sort the boolits into two groups one 166.6 to 166.8 and one 166.3 to 166.5
I seat the gas checks by pushing them on using my star sizer and a flat piece of steel, then I flip them over and push them through the lube sizer.
I neck size my fire-formed brass. [and push them over a 309 ball in a separate step]
I then bump the case mouth against my 8 mauser ball to slightly flair the case mouth to the exact size of my chamber and to help start the boolit in the case straight.
I'm using Remington brass that has had the primer pockets evened out, and the flash holes cut to the same size.
the cases have been annealed and fire-formed and sized a second time to try and get the same neck tension on each case.
I chose the Remington brass because it is thicker than the win and other brands of brass I had on hand, this and the mouth flair got my boolit much closer to the centerline of the barrel.
I seat the boolit out so that the front drive band is nestled just short of the throat area it mimics. [don't remember the oal right off]
my primer of choice is the federal 210 because it's strong enough without being forceful it's also quite consistent in depth and diameter, and it works well with stick type powders.
I started with H-4831-sc powder and worked the load up using a tuft of Dacron as my next step and worked in .4gr steps, shooting the non Dacron load and a Dacron added load until I seen the .4 accuracy nodes develop a I started working in just those steps [without the Dacron] once the powder started to clean up, indicating I was getting close to 50-k pressure.
once I broke 45 grs and started losing the group size I moved my oal around just a bit adjusting the accuracy node even further.
then fine tuned the load in .2 gr steps.
this got me to 2400 fps.
that was all the hassle and tribulations I went through in my 10 twist 308 rifle, I stopped at this point because I hit a superior accuracy node and other projects drew my attention away. [shrug]

Nice. Several items here that I'm writing down. Thanks for sharing.

[45 2.1]

Great. Let's start with a picture of a pound cast, the critical dimensions of same, the bullet(s) you intend to use, and a description of how you prepare your brass so we all know what you did and how you did it for starters. Once we know your foundational techniques, a sort of prioritization of the "list" that's been proposed sporadically can be sorted out.

Gear


Brass Brand: Lapua
Necks will be measured and turned for clean up
Primer pockets uniformed
Flash holes debured
Trimmed/chamfered/debured using Sinclair chamber length gauge as guide.
Weight sorted to .1 grain
Primer plugs inserted and volume weight sorted to .1 gr

Brass will also be checked for runout in the case neck, outside the case neck, the case body, and rim. Primer pockets will be checked for run out.

I will order some chamber casting alloy and get a chamber cast. Once I have my chamber cast completed then I will post the specs and we can go from there.

Edited to add: I will begin with new unfired brass. After 1st firing I will perform many of the same steps again, but will touch on sizing and neck tension. I have this cool tool that measures seating pressure.

Don't do anything to that brass until you have dimensions from that pound cast (one with the case attached to get chamber length)...................

[ballistim]

deleted

[runfiverun]

definitely do not do anything to that brass.
your gonna find out that most trim to lengths are waaay too short.
and most often the max case lengths are too short.
I can run my 308 brass to 358 win length [2.015] and not even think about it.

most guy's want to cut their brass around the necks too.
when they need to be figuring a way to add some thickness to it.

Gear worked on a pretty neat solution to case smoothness and adding thickness to his brass's necks a while back.
I just used some cello-tape [shrug]

[geargnasher]

Ballistim, I need to do a couple myself and post them up. After we see the pics and talk about them a bit the important things to learn from them should be clear, one of which is how much of a waste of time it is to slug a barrel unless you're troubleshooting a tight spot or bulge.

Gear

[cbrick]

Ballistim, I need to do a couple myself and post them up. After we see the pics and talk about them a bit the important things to learn from them should be clear, one of which is how much of a waste of time it is to slug a barrel unless you're troubleshooting a tight spot or bulge. Gear

Waste of time slugging a barrel? Not always, often maybe but not always. My 30-30 leaded and wouldn't shoot cast for beans and wasn't a real winner with jacketed for accuracy, velocity or extreme spread either. This rifle has a beautiful bore, clean sharp rifling that's quite uniform from one end to the other. Imagine my surprise when I slugged the bore and found that really nice bore had a groove diameter of .310". Shoots cast quite well now that I know to size to .312".

Rick

[geargnasher]

definitely do not do anything to that brass.
your gonna find out that most trim to lengths are waaay too short.
and most often the max case lengths are too short.
I can run my 308 brass to 358 win length [2.015] and not even think about it.

most guy's want to cut their brass around the necks too.
when they need to be figuring a way to add some thickness to it.

Gear worked on a pretty neat solution to case smoothness and adding thickness to his brass's necks a while back.
I just used some cello-tape [shrug]

That's interesting, I usually cut my .308 brass to 2.015, but only because that's where about 98% of it squares-up. You can still have a chamber neck that's longer than it should be though, and make up for short brass with a LOT of lube capacity on the bullet. I don't think it's an accident that some of my best-shooting loads leave a big lube ring on the case mouth.

On the XCB I run the stuff .005" short of the end of the chamber, same when using blank brass in the .308. Sometimes it's nice to have "overage".

Tape worked for me too, but it still compresses too much. I could really tell the difference in groups going down to about a thousandth total clearance with something more solid. A buddy of mine stayed up half the night with me on the phone lathing on a variety of different cases trying to make something fit my '06 chamber with less clearance, even 375 H&H wouldn't do it. I talked to the man who makes the '06 basic brass for Hawk and he said he could make a run of thick '06 brass but would need a custom headstamp for liability purposes, and the $1100 setup fee for the first hundred kind of choked that idea. Then there's the concept of super-fat bullets that I first heard about from reading about John Ardito. Now I'm learning how to get away with a little more clearance, but still have a long way to go to understand it. I'll throw up some pics of that little thickening trick when I do my pound casts, even though it really isn't practical for mass-production. I want practical, not spend three weeks making a few cases to shoot three or four times.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Waste of time slugging a barrel? Not always, often maybe but not always. My 30-30 leaded and wouldn't shoot cast for beans and wasn't a real winner with jacketed for accuracy, velocity or extreme spread either. This rifle has a beautiful bore, clean sharp rifling that's quite uniform from one end to the other. Imagine my surprise when I slugged the bore and found that really nice bore had a groove diameter of .310". Shoots cast quite well now that I know to size to .312".

Rick

Like I said, if you're troubleshooting it may not be a waste of time. There are a couple other key things involved with what you just wrote that will bear mentioning shortly.

Gear

[ballistim]

deleted

[Love Life]

I will get a pound cast done this week. The brass is safe and sound in it's unopened boxes for now.

What alloys do I need to buy from roto metal? I want to use only foundry certified alloys for this testing.

[Love Life]

Don't do anything to that brass until you have dimensions from that pound cast (one with the case attached to get chamber length)...................

Chamber length is arrived at using Sinclair plugs. However, I will still do the pound cast and post the dimensions. I wonder if the pound cast will give me a different chamber length than the using the Sinclair method.

[ShooterAZ]

This is "hopefully" going to be highly educational for me. I'm looking forward to seeing how the experts interpret a pound cast, and seeing how the boolit will be matched up accordingly. Please hold the phone and don't delete the thread!

[runfiverun]

it will give you a snap shot of what you have to work with.

I have done a pound cast and then designed a boolit from that.
after talking to Tom [at accurate] and mentioning that was how I was doing it, he was doing the same thing at one time but has since moved along to some fancy computer program stuff.

[Love Life]

What alloys do I need to order from Rotometals?

[ShooterAZ]

Dick, I'm sure Lyman #2 will be on the list. I have used the 2/6/92 alloy in some of my testing as well.

[geargnasher]

What alloys do I need to order from Rotometals?

Pure lead and Hardball (96-4-2), about the same amount of each.

Gear

[Love Life]

I will buy what I am told to buy. My sole purpose here is to put to action the techniques, lubes, and alloys I am told to so that I can shoot high velocity in a 1 in 10 twist.

dang, that sounds very snarky but was not my intent.

What I mean is I have a way of doing things. I am purposefully avoiding my way of doing things so that I can put the methods to work that will be described here. I hope that makes sense.

[geargnasher]

Dick, I'm sure Lyman #2 will be on the list. I have used the 2/6/92 alloy in some of my testing as well.

Don't be so sure about that. See my ramblings on alloy a few posts back. #2 is great for certain things, but not what LL is after.

One thing missing from Hardball is arsenic. Not essential all of the time, but it does help the heat treating. A few shell's worth of magnum shot can provide it if necessary. I wouldn't buy alloy myself, good old wheel weights do plenty well enough.

Dick, how far can you shoot these days? 200 yards at least?

Gear

[Love Life]

I will get it ordered this week. I believe 25 lbs of each will suffice for this?

[ShooterAZ]

Don't be so sure about that. See my ramblings on alloy a few posts back. #2 is great for certain things, but not what LL is after.

One thing missing from Hardball is arsenic. Not essential all of the time, but it does help the heat treating. A few shell's worth of magnum shot can provide it if necessary. I wouldn't buy alloy myself, good old wheel weights do plenty well enough.



Gear

OK, listening & learning. Just one clarification though please. Rotometals lists their hardball as 92/6/2, so if LL mixed that 50/50 with pure he will arrive at 96/3/1 correct? Is this what he wants (or what I want also?) This is very close to WW, and I have a whole bunch of it already from isotope cores. Thanks....

[dtknowles]

it will give you a snap shot of what you have to work with.

I have done a pound cast and then designed a boolit from that.
after talking to Tom [at accurate] and mentioning that was how I was doing it, he was doing the same thing at one time but has since moved along to some fancy computer program stuff.

I did a pound cast but could not really get good measurements because of the angles and such. How do you measure a pound cast.

Tim

[btroj]

That is a good question Tim.

I used mine to see how long the throat was, get an idea of the angles involved, and see how much play I had on either side of the loaded bullet. In my 375 it was an eye opener.

[geargnasher]

OK, listening & learning. Just one clarification though please. Rotometals lists their hardball as 92/6/2, so if LL mixed that 50/50 with pure he will arrive at 96/3/1 correct? Is this what he wants (or what I want also?) This is very close to WW, and I have a whole bunch of it already from isotope cores. Thanks....

Sorry, I can't math today. You're correct. I suspect a 3/2 ratio of pure/hardball will work best, but it's up to you and LL and your rifles to find out. For 22-2400 fps, my rifles seemed to prefer under two percent antimony and between half and one percent tin, water quenched from the mould and aged a month to increase the toughness. Oven heat treating makes them even more tough, but I didn't find that necessary until going over 2400 fps. YMMV.

Gear

p.s. Tim, we'll go over the pound cast thing when we have some pictures and measurements.

[Love Life]

I will mix as directed and work from there. So when my precious metals get in should I go ahead and mix up a batch of 3:2 Pure:Hardball?

[dtknowles]

That is a good question Tim.

I used mine to see how long the throat was, get an idea of the angles involved, and see how much play I had on either side of the loaded bullet. In my 375 it was an eye opener.

So how did you measure how long the throat? Did you calculate the angles or measure them. I guess the play on either side of the loaded bullet would depend on COAL.

Tim

[runfiverun]

I outline the slug on a piece of paper.
take measurements along the length of the slug and write the measurements there on the outline.
compare what you have to a saami throat drawing.
it's pretty much an old school way of doing things.

if you look at the picture link I posted you'll see where the smooth side [long drive band] of the boolit takes the place of my missing brass.
and the angle of the front drive band mimics the change from chamber to barrel.[ball seat area]
the nose slope matches the angle [@2*] of what's in front of that.

[45 2.1]

Alloys either make or break you. Low alloying constituents along with heat treatment get you a long ways toward where you want to be.....................

[dtknowles]

I outline the slug on a piece of paper.
take measurements along the length of the slug and write the measurements there on the outline.
compare what you have to a saami throat drawing.
it's pretty much an old school way of doing things.

if you look at the picture link I posted you'll see where the smooth side [long drive band] of the boolit takes the place of my missing brass.
and the angle of the front drive band mimics the change from chamber to barrel.[ball seat area]
the nose slope matches the angle [@2*] of what's in front of that.

How do you measure the length of the throat and leade. I can only eyeball the start and end of each, not very precise. The other problem I have is measuring diameter of the parts that do not have parallel sides, I guess I don't have the right tools to hold the case and the micrometer perpendicular to each other and the edges of the micrometer want to dig into the soft lead of the slug. If I have a length and difference in diameter I can calculate the angle.

Tim

[frnkeore]

If you know the bore (land ID) diameter of your barrel, set you mic at .308. Put the anvils of the mic onto your slug, rotate the slug and the anvils will make a mark, be careful but, you don't have to be exactly perpendicular. If your bore is .300, then you have .004 heigth difference. Measure the length between where the mic left it's mark and where the tapered area ends with calipers. Divide .004 by that length, then find the sine of that number and that's your angle, per side.

Example:

one side groove depth = .004 divided by .125 (length you measured with calipers) = .032 (that # is the sine of the angle). With your scientific calculator press the 2nd function button then, the sin button and you will get 1.83378 deg. It will be very close to the actual angle, depending on how careful you were.

Frank

[geargnasher]

If you're mic is digging into the soft lead, you need to work on your technique...and add some finesse. Should be doing that anyway when measuring any material. It's a "feel" thing.

Gear

[dtknowles]

If you're mic is digging into the soft lead, you need to work on your technique...and add some finesse. Should be doing that anyway when measuring any material. It's a "feel" thing.

Gear

I am sure you are better at this than I am, measuring diameters on a taper of soft material is tricky for me with a standard 1 inch mic. I tried using my microscope but the cast is too big, the field of view is only 0.150 inches or so.

Tim

[R3104D3R]

L.L. add ~ 800 gr. CuSO4 to the mix.

Best advice ever.

[geargnasher]

Try doing what Frank suggested, figure your groove dimension and set the mic to that, then open it up a thousandth and see how far the slug inserts, open another thousandth and repeat. I scratch marks across the throat of a slug with a razor blade to indicate at what length each diameter measurement falls. You can do .002" diameter increments, whatever seems right for your throat taper. Then plot all that out on a scale drawing. You'll be doing the same thing to the nose of bullets you intend to use, as well, and overlay the two drawings to give a good visual.

Gear

[btroj]

Well hell, that is simple. What a "duh" moment I just had.

Thanks Gear, that makes sense.

[tomme boy]

What about using a dial indicator to measure along the slug?

I wish I still worked at one of the places I was a mechanic at we had a full machine shop that reproduced almost anything. I could have any type of fixture I wanted to do any kind of measurements.

[geargnasher]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Gear

[karlrudin]

My dad used to work for the public parking and would use the parking meter housing to cast bullets out of. They were made of Zamac. He was casting Lyman #311299 bullets for his 30-06. Mold would drop these bullets made of Zamac out at 125 grains ish. Been a long time so the weight might not be exact. I do remember hearing the stories of how he could drive these bullets at 3000+ on the velocity. Does this enter the realm of "high velocity" cast?

[dtknowles]

L.L. add ~ 800 gr. CuSO4 to the mix.

800 is this grains or grams and for how much alloy. 800 grams seems like a lot but 800 grains is less than 2 ounces so seems reasonable. Why did you pick 800 gr.????

Tim

[dtknowles]

Try doing what Frank suggested, figure your groove dimension and set the mic to that, then open it up a thousandth and see how far the slug inserts, open another thousandth and repeat. I scratch marks across the throat of a slug with a razor blade to indicate at what length each diameter measurement falls. You can do .002" diameter increments, whatever seems right for your throat taper. Then plot all that out on a scale drawing. You'll be doing the same thing to the nose of bullets you intend to use, as well, and overlay the two drawings to give a good visual.

Gear

This seems like it would work.

Tim

[runfiverun]

Tim:
he is looking at getting 0.2% to 0.5% copper in the alloy.
any more and it's problematic to cast with, any less and it's just not enough to make a difference.
popper developed a way to remove zinc and replace it with copper that works pretty good, and if you look in that same thread you'll see where I was using a higher tin alloy to make a copper babbit from.
I'd then use that same babbit to make a copper enhanced alloy with.

Karl:
it does, but it's cheating :lol:

we are trying to do this the hard way...
once you figure how to make plain sb/sn/pb alloy cast boolits go fast, shooting jackets of one sort or another becomes pretty simple.

[Love Life]

Alloys either make or break you. Low alloying constituents along with heat treatment get you a long ways toward where you want to be.....................

I am here to follow directions exactly as told. If you are going to aid, please give full and complete instructions of what you want me to do. I say that with no ill intention or insult implied. What I want here is for some one to say "Take these alloys, melt at XXX temperature, cast with mould at or near XXX temperature, heat treat at XXX temperature for XXX minutes and let age for XXX amount of time." Then I will do those things and document the results.

Alloy will be ordered today. Popper, I will do that at a later date. I made up a big batch of the copper enriched alloy a ways back and I like it. I am definitely writing off your input, but I don't want to do other than told by Geargnasher, R5R and 45 2.1.

[45 2.1]

I am here to follow directions exactly as told. If you are going to aid, please give full and complete instructions of what you want me to do. I say that with no ill intention or insult implied. What I want here is for some one to say "Take these alloys, melt at XXX temperature, cast with mould at or near XXX temperature, heat treat at XXX temperature for XXX minutes and let age for XXX amount of time." Then I will do those things and document the results.

Lead, that is out there is what it is. It isn't uniform until you buy certified grades of metal. I don't do that myself... and you can't duplicate what I'm using either because it isn't out there to buy. One has to learn the lead supply he has, ie, what does what..... that takes some time and experimentation. Myself, I don't/wouldn't add copper. I use 50%WW/50% dead soft lead (water dropped) with NO EXTRA TIN ADDED. Tin is a crutch that will defeat your efforts if too much is in the alloy. This is good for me to about 2,500 fps in a 20" barrel. If it were a 26" barrel, you can add 6 x 35 fps/inch = 210fps to that 2,500 to get 2,710 fps in a 26" barrel. We can give you general procedures, but we can't see what you're doing (and you won't be able to describe it well enough to help much). The end results are what you need to analyze, and that is whether you're getting accuracy. Accuracy depends more on what you do than anything else.

[Love Life]

I quit.

[Nrut]

gnaw on it for awhile, you'll figure out a solution..

[geargnasher]

I quit.

That's what almost everyone does when they discover that this involves developing several new skill sets and a completely new knowledge fund based primarily on direct results from their own equipment and rifles. Each person has to learn how to do this, it is a process with a lot of things that have to be understood firsthand through doing. For you, rebarreling or staying in the conventional velocity range or cast may bet the best option. You could also learn to wrap and shoot paper jackets, the learning curve there is much shorter and much easier for most people to understand.

Gear

[Love Life]

That's not it at all.

The time, money, and experimentation does not matter to me. I can do all those on my own. I was trying to give you and 45 2.1 the opportunity to lead and instruct with me as the student. I am willing to do exactly as directed while keeping my own ideas and opinions out of it.

The solution to all this for me is to buy Bergers and Sierras, but I would like to document the methods used for you all to achieve what is achievable.

So far as directed I will not be working my brass until after fire formed and then will only work what told to work
I am ordering 25 lbs of Pure and 25 lbs of hardball and some chamber casting alloy
I Will be doing a pound cast and posting the measurements.

I can describe well enough what you all need. I can go into painstaking detail.

I'm offering up my time, rifle, and wallet to finally document this. Walk me through it. Start me at the basics of what you do and I will emulate.

[ballistim]

deleted

[Love Life]

Ballistim- You missed the point entirely. I am willing to learn. However, to learn you need clear instruction. I have listed the clear instructions I received so far and will move form there after I get the required measurements, alloys, and 1X fired brass.

[geargnasher]

I'm still taking in the information here to form a complete plan, but one of the challenges here as in other things is differences of opinions on how to get there. Certain methods seem to be across the board here making them the easiest to include in my plan, others have a different approach and those differences are sometimes hotly debated, which is still good because further explanation on how and why those methods prove true is invaluable. I don't expect anyone to lead me by the hand, as I've benefitted from the years of experience shared here, and am still going to have to learn things on my own by experiment and experience. Skilled trade occupation taught me long ago to always be willing to learn from others, but deciding what does & doesn't work for me is my own responsibility. Patience is required for anything of value that's accomplished. Others feel differently I'm sure, just my idea of what lies ahead here.

Very good synopsis of the situation and how it needs to be approached. There are a few unconventional "tricks" that can be used here and there to help things out, but generally, there are no secrets to accomplishing HV accuracy with normal rifles. What IS involved is gaining an understanding of the things that work against you, and how to fix them. The goal is to launch a balanced, concentric bullet, and have consistent "barrel time" so that the oscillations of the rifle work in your favor. How to achieve those things can be, obviously, quite complex and is very subjective.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ballistim- You missed the point entirely. I am willing to learn. However, to learn you need clear instruction. I have listed the clear instructions I received so far and will move form there after I get the required measurements, alloys, and 1X fired brass.

Nope, YOU missed the point, several times. You want paint-by-numbers. It doesn't work that way.

Gear

[Love Life]

Correct. I apologize profusely and will move on.

[45 2.1]

Nope, YOU missed the point, several times. You want paint-by-numbers. It doesn't work that way.

Gear

Yep, Gear is correct. Handloading/cast boolit shooting requires you learn different things if you go fast. It doesn't have the same parameters as Lyman's 1600 fps directions. You want a bigger problem, go fast in a semi-auto....... that's been solved also... and in a well put together semi-auto, the targets outshine what you've seen on this forum. I would suggest you listen and absorb what is put out here and don't rationalize or second guess things.

[dtknowles]

Lead, that is out there is what it is. It isn't uniform until you buy certified grades of metal. I don't do that myself... and you can't duplicate what I'm using either because it isn't out there to buy. One has to learn the lead supply he has, ie, what does what..... that takes some time and experimentation. Myself, I don't/wouldn't add copper. I use 50%WW/50% dead soft lead (water dropped) with NO EXTRA TIN ADDED. Tin is a crutch that will defeat your efforts if too much is in the alloy. This is good for me to about 2,500 fps in a 20" barrel. If it were a 26" barrel, you can add 6 x 35 fps/inch = 210fps to that 2,500 to get 2,710 fps in a 26" barrel. We can give you general procedures, but we can't see what you're doing (and you won't be able to describe it well enough to help much). The end results are what you need to analyze, and that is whether you're getting accuracy. Accuracy depends more on what you do than anything else.

Why waffle, the lead you use can be "duplicated", at least close enough, 50%WW-50%pure no added tin, you said it but then but won't commit, how much difference do you think a couple ten's of a percent Sb or Sn make, I say none at the target. Water dropped, cool, do you check hardness, can you share that data?

5R5, 45 2.1 and Gear are all on the same page on this 50/50 water dropped alloy, right?

Tim

[ShooterAZ]

I am still all in. I got very good accuracy at just under 2300fps in 30-06 10 twist, but with an alloy of higher tin & antimony content. I used WD 95/2.5/2.5 from Lyman #2 cut 50/50 with pure. I have a lot of 96/3/1 which is my usual go to handgun alloy. I will mix this one 50/50 with pure to get 98/1.5/.5 and WD it. I have a boolit that fits the throat well and will try one thing at a time to see if I can eek 2400 out of it. The alloy change will be my first change. I will start where I left off with my powder charge, and ladder up a couple of grains or so. I will report back on this. Thanks for all the help.

[leftiye]

I'm still taking in the information here to form a complete plan, but one of the challenges here as in other things is differences of opinions on how to get there. Certain methods seem to be across the board here making them the easiest to include in my plan, others have a different approach and those differences are sometimes hotly debated, which is still good because further explanation on how and why those methods prove true is invaluable. I don't expect anyone to lead me by the hand, as I've benefitted from the years of experience shared here, and am still going to have to learn things on my own by experiment and experience. Skilled trade occupation taught me long ago to always be willing to learn from others, but deciding what does & doesn't work for me is my own responsibility. Patience is required for anything of value that's accomplished. Others feel differently I'm sure, just my idea of what lies ahead here.

I like what you've said here. As for the differing opinions, some of that is the differing equipment the people had to develop their loads with/different experiences/different opinions. Some of it is that some of them are wrong. I do believe that what works works. When voodoo is involved, BS is in the pot. I expect that if someone does their part, standard (perhaps not yet developed though) practices will get you very close to good results.

[leftiye]

I am still all in. I got very good accuracy at just under 2300fps in 30-06 10 twist, but with an alloy of higher tin & antimony content. I used WD 95/2.5/2.5 from Lyman #2 cut 50/50 with pure. I have a lot of 96/3/1 which is my usual go to handgun alloy. I will mix this one 50/50 with pure to get 98/1.5/.5 and WD it. I have a boolit that fits the throat well and will try one thing at a time to see if I can eek 2400 out of it. The alloy change will be my first change. I will start where I left off with my powder charge, and ladder up a couple of grains or so. I will report back on this. Thanks for all the help.

Probly a real good alloy. Tin interferes with heat treating. 1/2 % Tin alloys heat treat like crazy. With 5% Antimony, hardness of BHN 42 is possible. Perhaps some experimentation with slightly more Antimony.

[45 2.1]

Why waffle, the lead you use can be "duplicated", at least close enough, 50%WW-50%pure no added tin, you said it but then but won't commit, how much difference do you think a couple ten's of a percent Sb or Sn make, I say none at the target. Water dropped, cool, do you check hardness, can you share that data?

5R5, 45 2.1 and Gear are all on the same page on this 50/50 water dropped alloy, right?

Tim

You note I didn't say pure lead........... mine isn't. It came from a treasure trove of hundreds of pounds of old bullet cores, bought a long time ago. Those bullet cores should be pure with about 2% antimony. You won't duplicate that unless you're very lucky. A little antimony/tin content does change things. The lower the antimony content, the longer it takes for it to harden. It does make a difference, whether anyone else thinks so or not!

As far as hardness data, the 50/50 WW/dead soft water dropped changes with time. Two weeks cure gives barely repeatable results. Two months is better, anything after a year is usually match grade.... right now mine are over two years old. I checked time/hardness on this mix about 15 years ago... it continued getting harder as time went by. I stopped checking it at 18 months at about 21 BHN with good malleability and toughness.

[dtknowles]

Nope, YOU missed the point, several times. You want paint-by-numbers. It doesn't work that way.

Gear

I don't understand, you mean you don't know what you do to achieve the results you get? Is it you can't explain the process or you think it has so many variables that you don't think we can understand and follow your guidance?

Either you have a process and others can follow it or you just make random changes and when you are lucky you get good results.

Paint by numbers is an over simplification of the request for a description of how you work up a high velocity cast bullet load for a new rifle when you get one. I think you can safely assume those of us who would like to emulate your process already have the basics of casting and loading ammo and since it has been well documented in this thread, the brass preps don't need to be repeated. Now we know the alloy, so after we get thru reading the pound cast, we can get on with sizing and lubing the bullets. I understand that this might not be a one size or lube fits so describing how to decide when to change the lube or the sizing.

See if you break it down one step at a time, you can describe your method, I am sure you have one, not just random changes and not paint by numbers we are not children, the process comes with a bit of trial and error, that is understood, later we can talk about primers and powder choices and load ladder or not, etc.

Tim

[45 2.1]

There is a big difference between knowing and guessing/following directions. The WHY is the thing you should be after.

[geargnasher]

Why waffle, the lead you use can be "duplicated", at least close enough, 50%WW-50%pure no added tin, you said it but then but won't commit, how much difference do you think a couple ten's of a percent Sb or Sn make, I say none at the target. Water dropped, cool, do you check hardness, can you share that data?

5R5, 45 2.1 and Gear are all on the same page on this 50/50 water dropped alloy, right?

Tim

I've stated many times that an alloy with 2% or slightly less Sb and half to one percent Sn and nothing much else but lead is the type of alloy I've used to get my best groups between about 2K fps and 2400. I haven't done as much work with oven heat treated versions of this which would be tougher than dropped straight from the mould into water, but just dropping from the mould a .30 caliber bullet comes out around 19-20 bhn after a month or so and is good for upper 23's. Drawn for less toughness, it's really good around 2K fps and makes an outstanding hunting alloy. Match the temper to your system for the velocity you intend to work in. I don't doubt that the alloy can be pushed to 2500 fps like 45 2.1 mentioned if treated for maximum hardness, which in my testing comes out near 24 bhn.

This sort of alloy can be obtained in many ways, one I used a lot was 40% clip-on wheel weights and 60% of an approximately 7-8 bhn scrap from roofing lead, shower pan liners, and other soft stuff. I've also used some range scrap that tested to about 20 bhn water quenched from the mould, and 1.8%Sb, 1/4% Sn range alloy from Lead & Brass. Anything like that worked fine for me as long as I didn't exceed the amount of pressure the alloy could stand. Now 45 2.1 generally shoots better groups than I do, so maybe the tenths of percents matter at some point, but there's only so many times I'm going to split a hair to do this. Anything under one MOA group size from a sporting weight rifle is plenty good enough for me.

Gear

[dtknowles]

There is a big difference between knowing and guessing/following directions. The WHY is the thing you should be after.

I think I was asking that you provide rationale for decisions (the WHY, as you stated) Like when I said "understand that this might not be a one size or lube fits so describing how to decide when to change the lube or the sizing."

Tim

[dtknowles]

You note I didn't say pure lead........... mine isn't. It came from a treasure trove of hundreds of pounds of old bullet cores, bought a long time ago. Those bullet cores should be pure with about 2% antimony. You won't duplicate that unless you're very lucky. A little antimony/tin content does change things. The lower the antimony content, the longer it takes for it to harden. It does make a difference, whether anyone else thinks so or not!

As far as hardness data, the 50/50 WW/dead soft water dropped changes with time. Two weeks cure gives barely repeatable results. Two months is better, anything after a year is usually match grade.... right now mine are over two years old. I checked time/hardness on this mix about 15 years ago... it continued getting harder as time went by. I stopped checking it at 18 months at about 21 BHN with good malleability and toughness.

I don't know why you insist that your alloy is unobtainium. I see you think that a few tenths of a percent of Sb and Sn do make a difference so we will have to test bullets with a range of Sb and Sn concentrations. This is not a problem for me as I usually cast in small batches and I have plenty of know metal and a scale so I can make bullets with about any percentage including Arsenic and Copper as well as Tin and Antimony. So are bullets aged two months good enough or do we really need to wait a year for them to age to match grade?

I have some bullets that have been aging for a little over a month and I tested a couple last night and they are at 20 BHN. Do you size them before or after you let them age, do you see them grow any when they age?

Tim

[geargnasher]

I think I was asking that you provide rationale for decisions (the WHY, as you stated) Like when I said "understand that this might not be a one size or lube fits so describing how to decide when to change the lube or the sizing."

Tim

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Anyone want to know why 50/50 WW/pure works?

Gear

[s mac]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Anyone want to know why 50/50 WW/pure works?

Gear

I for one am listening.

[ballistim]

deleted

[DR Owl Creek]

For anyone thinking about trying copper enriched alloys, check out the long "sticky" in the Lead & Lead Alloys Forum. It's 24 pages long, but if you just study the last several pages, it will tell you everything you need to know about getting consistent, repeatable results using copper enriched alloys. Go to: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

Dave

[dtknowles]

For anyone thinking about trying copper enriched alloys, check out the long "sticky" in the Lead & Lead Alloys Forum. It's 24 pages long, but if you just study the last several pages, it will tell you everything you need to know about getting consistent, repeatable results using copper enriched alloys. Go to: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

Dave

Dave

Thanks for the link, I can't use it right now as I have the alloy but am still trying to select a bullet and establish a baseline accuracy/velocity profile before I try my Cu alloy. I need to know how well I can do without Cu before I can tell if Cu helps.

Tim

[runfiverun]

let's back this down a notch.

Tim I see you asked if Me, Ian, and Bob are using the same alloy's.
the answer is no we are not.
hell we ain't even using the same boolit, or brand of rifle.
now popper is using the same boolit as I am but a completely different alloy it works for him.
I don't use the same alloy in my AR's as I use in my bolt guns or the same techniques or boolit style.

I can assure you however that our alloy's are semi-fairly similar and our boolit shapes/designs are fairly similar in design for the bolt guns too.
I use a mix of 1980's-90's clip on ww's with some soft stick-on ww alloy thrown in, and some range lead from a 22lr indoor range right now.
it come out to about 3-1 clip on ww to the other 2 mixed 50-50. [this is what my last big homogenous batch of alloy come out to be to make it all even]
however like I mentioned in my outline earlier [I think I did] I had to manipulate the alloy and my mold temp just a bit to get the as cast diameter super close to my as used diameter.
they are using completely different stuff, and have to work their alloy, temp, and casting pace to suit their equipment.
I use a 40 pound magma pot with dual spouts so I can fill both cavitys at the same time, there is no way they are doing that.

[geargnasher]

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/castbullet.htm

This should help. It's been discussed throughout the last few pages of this thread by myself, 45 2.1, and Runfiverun, but it didn't generate much interest.

Gear

[geargnasher]

And to add to Runfiverun's last post, we aren't sizing anywhere near the same diameters or using the same bullet lubes. Bob ladle pours everything with a big Rowel ladle. I use a Lee 20-lb bottom pour with the spout peened down and re-drilled smaller. I generally size to a fuzz under throat entrance diameter when using thicker brass, but much larger than throat diameter when the chamber necks are huge. That last tidbit will really test the physical properties of your alloy....that's a big hint. The approach to fitting a bullet to a series of parallel shapes and sharp angles in a bolt-action rifle is different than fitting a tapered or parabolic throat with no freebore.

What does all of this have in COMMON? Sub-MOA out of 10" twist, factory or military .308 rifles at speeds approaching or sometimes exceeding 2400 fps while using an alloy that will perform well on deer-sized game at those velocities. We are getting the basics of FIT correct (different shapes and sizes together with available components call for different methods) and are pushing our bullets with powders that the system of alloy, tolerances, and shapes needs to work, and tuning to the nodes of the rifles until we get to the ballpark velocity range we want to be in. We are pushing our bullets straight into the bores and out of the muzzle exactly the same way each time, albeit with different processes.

Gear

[cbrick]

I use 50%WW/50% dead soft lead (water dropped) with NO EXTRA TIN ADDED. Tin is a crutch that will defeat your efforts if too much is in the alloy. This is good for me to about 2,500 fps in a 20" barrel.

Ah ha, now that's what I've waiting to hear, the starting point with the alloy. That I can do easily or at least right close. Right now the Magma pot has 40 pounds of CWW +2% Sn in it, very simple matter to turn that into 5 pound ingots. I've got about 500 pounds of fluxed cleaned CWW with nothing added in 5 pound ingots. For soft I have fluxed cleaned SWW with nothing added.

From several XrF tests on wheel weights from different parts of the country I think it's safe to assume the following composition of the weights.

CWW = 2% Sb - 0.5% Sn
SWW = Close to 99% Pb with traces of Sb/Sn/As

Water dropped CWW runs right at 18 BHN, with all the heat treat testing I've done I've pretty well determined that the difference in heat treated WW with 2% Sb and the same with 1% Sb is very close, the main difference is the lower Sb alloy while reaching the same final hardness there will be a big jump in the ageing/hardness time curve. The higher Sb will reach final (or close) BHN in from 3-5 days. The lower Sb alloy will reach the same BHN but take up to 3 weeks. I'll use the convection oven HT method and duplicating the 18 BHN of water dropped is pretty easy.

Off to the races, next I'll work on a pound cast and try to get worthwhile measurements. Good & worthwhile info, thanks 45 2.1.

Rick

[cbrick]

Anyone want to know why 50/50 WW/pure works? Gear

Uh, why yes as a matter of fact, I do very much so.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Good, me too! One thing I know is too much antimony (brittle), too much tin (gummy), or too much of each (malleable, tough, but lacking the heat treat characteristics that work so well) isn't good for accuracy. Lyman #2 is a great alloy, but when I try to get it punched through a small hole, it shaves. 50/50 heat-treated to the same hardness doesn't do that.

Gear

[dtknowles]

I think we are seeing some effort to get with the program. Thanks for posting the link to Glen's article. There used to be an ad type link to the LA Club's webpage where a lot of Glen's stuff is available but I don't see it anymore. Some of his work is a must read in my mind but I don't have the link, I read it all and some of it many times. Other good stuff there as well.

I think based on what I have been seeing that 45 2.1's alloy is a little higher in Sb than you would get with newer wheelweights and pure 50/50. I think that Cbrick's CCW's straight is more like 45 2.1's final alloy if I was to judge by final hardness water dropped.

Does anyone think that the method of casting impact accuracy, ladle vs. bottom pour, single cavity vs. multiple cavity, steel vs. aluminum vs, brass. Assuming perfect bullets and low weight variation.

Noted is no one alloy will work best at all velocities and bullet fit/jump/bump.

Did see a little discussion on bullet size/fit/case neck.

We covered brass prep and case fit. We are close on alloy, I want to talk a little more about that and then move on the bullet sizing and fit. When I say talk, I don't mean I have the answers, I have some knowledge and questions.

We are getting close to being able to start making ammo but we don't quite have bullets yet.

I believe that a bullet should never be harder than it needs to be and the harder a bullet is the better it must fit. That is why the challenges get tougher the faster you want to go. To go faster you need a stronger bullet (not necessarily harder), it is not easy to make a bullet stronger without making it harder but part of this is the design of the bullet. A good bullet design will be stronger (resists deformation better) and be easier to fit to your leade/throat. If a hard/strong lead bullet does not fit right it will be worse than a soft bullet, hard/strong lead bullets are unforgiving. If a hard/strong lead bullet gets started cockeyed, or gets shaved or does not fill the bore or makes fins the bumping forces will not straighten it out or bump it up or fill it out or shed its fins and it will not fly straight. A too soft bullet will skid or slump causing leading or poor accuracy. I think it has been shown that heat treated alloys with a BHN of 20 or so will work at 2000 to 2500 fps, maybe a little higher but a little harder is better at 2300 or better but the bullet better have a real good fit. Consider these statements as a possible question not gospel.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Good, me too! One thing I know is too much antimony (brittle), too much tin (gummy), or too much of each (malleable, tough, but lacking the heat treat characteristics that work so well) isn't good for accuracy. Lyman #2 is a great alloy, but when I try to get it punched through a small hole, it shaves. 50/50 heat-treated to the same hardness doesn't do that.

Gear

Gear

I am glad you put this in here. I am sure some people were wondering why we heat treat vs. just adding more Sb/Sn. It is not just because we are cheap.

Tim

[jmort]

"There used to be an ad type link to the LA Club's webpage where a lot of Glen's stuff is available but I don't see it anymore."

It is still here, at the bottom of the page.

[btroj]

I will be using my range scrap. Roughly 1.7Sb, .3 Sn. I wish it had a tinge more tin to fill out better but it does well enough if I pay attention. Hardens nicely when water dropped.

[dtknowles]

"There used to be an ad type link to the LA Club's webpage where a lot of Glen's stuff is available but I don't see it anymore."

It is still here, at the bottom of the page.

I don't know how I missed it. I went to look for it and did not see it. Do they maybe rotate?

Tim

[cbrick]

Tim, my web site URL (lasc.us) has been hijacked. I've been unable to figure just how and correct it. Everything is still there except the front (index) page. If you go to lasc.us you end up on some dead end page but if you click the link at the bottom of every page here it will take you there and from there to the links to the article pages, sorry working on it.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Gear

I am glad you put this in here. I am sure some people were wondering why we heat treat vs. just adding more Sb/Sn. It is not just because we are cheap.

Tim

I intend to find out more this weekend. In my M1A, I got some pretty good groups already at 100 yards using an experimental load and some old 311041 Lee bullets that I already had cast up, sized .311, lubed, and checked. The alloy is clippy weights and 2% additional tin, air cooled. Should be about 2.5/2.5/95 alloy. The bullet isn't all that great of a fit, but not too bad, either. It worked because I was only pushing it to about 2K fps and was sizing to just a fuzz over throat entrance diameter. Also, I lubed all three grooves to help build a hydraulic bridge from case to throat. As the pressures go up when I increase the load, the bullet will deform more under the pressure, and the alloy will likely have two things wrong with it: Too brittle and resistant to flow, and not tough enough. We'll see what I have to do to make it group past where I am now, should be interesting. 2400 fps and 1.5 MOA to 300 yards is the goal for that one.

Gear

[45 2.1]

Good, me too! One thing I know is too much antimony (brittle), too much tin (gummy), or too much of each (malleable, tough, but lacking the heat treat characteristics that work so well) isn't good for accuracy. Lyman #2 is a great alloy, but when I try to get it punched through a small hole, it shaves. 50/50 heat-treated to the same hardness doesn't do that. Gear

You need to look up what most ammo manufacturers use for 22 RF alloy, check the lead wire drawing industry specs for alloy constituents as well as what alloy is in most centerfire jacketed bullets. Those will tell you a lot of things....................

[cbrick]

Well Gear, ya done much better than me with the M1A, got a scope on it and last weekend managed a group about half of the 8 1/2 X 11 target. Also around 2000-2050. Chrono didn't work, just too much muzzle flash with it. Bullet was the XCB @ 165. Used a reduced starting charge of N-140.

Rick

[geargnasher]

You need to look up what most ammo manufacturers use for 22 RF alloy, check the lead wire drawing industry specs for alloy constituents as well as what alloy is in most centerfire jacketed bullets. Those will tell you a lot of things....................

See post #603. Lamar hinted at it again a couple times last year and got me to thinking more about it doing these alloy tests. Draw qualities are more important than mash qualities for this, ergo tin=bad.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Well Gear, ya done much better than me with the M1A, got a scope on it and last weekend managed a group about half of the 8 /12 X 11 target. Also around 2000-2050. Chrono didn't work, just too much muzzle flash with it. Bullet was the XCB @ 165. Used a reduced starting charge of N-140.

Rick

How did the function go? I'm going to try out the Magneto Speed, might have to pull the flash hider and who knows what that will do to POI with that pencil-barrel pogo stick.

Gear

[45 2.1]

Draw qualities are more important than mash qualities for this, ergo tin=bad. Gear

Give the man a cigar............................. Of course, that isn't the only reason too much tin is bad. There are some more also. See if you can come up with them.

[geargnasher]

Well, it tends to interfere with heat treating. I also keep hearing that too much tin contributes to "leading" at high velocity but I haven't really experienced that myself.

Gear

[btroj]

Ok, is it an absolute tin level or relative to antimony that matters? In other words, if we add a bit of antimony can it reduce the impact of a higher than desired tin level? How much tin is "too much"?

I have a feeling it is an absolute level but I don't know. What say Bob?

[dtknowles]

Tim, my web site URL (lasc.us) has been hijacked. I've been unable to figure just how and correct it. Everything is still there except the front (index) page. If you go to lasc.us you end up on some dead end page but if you click the link at the bottom of every page here it will take you there and from there to the links to the article pages, sorry working on it.

Rick

I am glad people can get to it from here. It is a great resource, I have not been in a while, I think I have read everything there and some of it more than once.

Tim

[cbrick]

Ok, is it an absolute tin level or relative to antimony that matters? In other words, if we add a bit of antimony can it reduce the impact of a higher than desired tin level? How much tin is "too much"?

I have a feeling it is an absolute level but I don't know. What say Bob?

Well Brad, I have an understanding of Sb/Sn in the alloy and have used 2% added tin for many years. However, I have never tried to punch up the velocity and for this project I am going to heed the following advice, there is a big clue contained within.


I use 50%WW/50% dead soft lead (water dropped) with NO EXTRA TIN ADDED. Tin is a crutch that will defeat your efforts if too much is in the alloy. This is good for me to about 2,500 fps in a 20" barrel.

[cbrick]

How did the function go? I'm going to try out the Magneto Speed, might have to pull the flash hider and who knows what that will do to POI with that pencil-barrel pogo stick. Gear

Cycling was flawless. N-140 is very close in burn rate to the 4320 you were using, I was using a 165 gr bullet and 35 gr powder to your 32 gr 4320, air cooled CWW +2% Sn. Many ways for me to go, HT, lighter charge, heavier bullet and on and on.

Rick

[cbrick]

Well, it tends to interfere with heat treating. I also keep hearing that too much tin contributes to "leading" at high velocity but I haven't really experienced that myself. Gear

Yeah, but not much at the percentage we normally use. CWW +2% added Sn will readily HT to 30 BHN. Higher percentages of Sn will limit the amount of strength gained, slow it's time curve to get there and increase it's rate of age softening. Higher percentage meaning upwards of 5%.

Dunno about too much tin causing leading, I've never experimented with "high" Sb precetages. I played with 3% for some time and the only real difference I could detect over my normal 2% was that my Sn went away quicker. None of my testing was for high velocity however, for that I'll follow Bob's advice and add none. On the downside, Bob's "Match" bullets are aged two years. Yikes, I don't even know if I'll still be able to shoot in two years.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I dunno, Rick. We used the same alloy, same bullet weight, similar powder, and virtually the same rifles. I was using CCI 200 primers, mixed commercial brass (necks turned enough to clean up only about half way around), and trimmed to 2.015". Dang thing shoots.

Tonight I stuffed some more together, this time I'm going up to 34 grains with all else the same as before (now out of decent scrap 311041s), then I switched to MP .30 Silhouette bullets cast of 50/50 ww/pure + 1% Sn and water quenched from the mould (1 year or so aged) with the same load, and then put together some more with 36 grains because I know that hardened alloy needs to be bumped harder. Got 15 more prepped cases that I'm pondering about as I type this.....I have plenty of AM 31-185G bullets cast of various alloys, thinking of trying some WD 50/50 aged ones but will have to chamber them by hand due to the noses fitting just a little too snug for comfort and I'm skeered of doing something stupid and getting a slam fire. All the others will literally fall out of the chamber if I poke them all the way in there and elevate the muzzle with the bolt locked back. After writing that I think I'll give it a whirl, with the 36 grain load.

BTW I did pound casts last night of this rifle and the Savage Varmint .308, but since LL dropped out putting up pics isn't a priority for me.

Gear

[tomme boy]

I would really like to see both of them to compare to my own rifles. That Savage was a Bisley right?

[geargnasher]

No, that's my old Hog Rifle with a new monster Rock Creek 5R barrel on it. I bought a left-handed bone-stock Savage .308 heavy-barreled rifle from Bjorn and haven't shot it yet. Interestingly, the Savage factory heavy barrel has a .309" throat entrance and .299 X .307" bore like the Rock Creek, but a different throat angle of course.

I'll put up some pics eventually. I have to really be in the mood to break out the camera, card reader, and deal with the upload process.

Gear

[Bjornb]

After reading several days' worth of postings it's clear to me that there are more ways than one to achieve high speed with cast bullets. Each shooter needs to pick the avenue that suits his needs, rifles and wallet. I picked one, and regardless of certain negative opinions, I feel that my rifles are giving me good accuracy at good speeds. Yes, they have 1:14 twist and the bullets are linotype, but when this combination has given me sub-MOA at 2550 fps and sub 1.5 MOA at 3000 fps I believe I'm on the right track. (And Ian, Bertha shot 1/2 MOA with jacketed). There is always room for improvement. I was disappointed (but understanding) when LL dropped out, as I was getting ready to follow along with my Ruger GSR 308 in 1:10 twist. Oh well.
I'll continue to shoot, trying to better the accuracy at the higher speeds, but until I see other shooters getting repeatable results from fast twist rifles, I feel confident that my track is every bit as valid as the others being promoted. Good luck to everybody.

[runfiverun]

yes there is more than one way to get there.

I have also been puttering around with a 7 twist in 300 b.o.
it's 16" barrel keeps velocity's down, but I'm thinking I might be able to get to 1800 fps with it.
unfortunately the mold I had cut come a bit too small, so I am slowly working on lapping it out.
i'll probably screw it up and just end up having Tom cut me one.

[btroj]

Yeah, more than one way exists. That is sorta what some have been saying all along. Yes Bjorn, you have had very good results with one method. Time will tell how many of us do with other methods.
What I am after more than anything is furthering my knowledge. That can only come from doing. Poor results aren't always a failure, they are often a useful teaching too. Some of us know that well from lube testing, I just hope Run doesn't have any 3 AM flaming rifles......

[cbrick]

Viht calls for a starting charge of 40 gr at 2390, I used 34.5 and 35 gr. Viht also calls for a standard primer and per Bruce's suggestion I used #34, a mag primer. First time I fired it with open peep sights and couldn't see the target at all I used Fed 210 & did have a slam fire but groups "seemed" better. It will be interesting when you go up to 34 gr, I was considering going down to about 30-31 gr & see if it groups any better and still cycles.

Rick

[cbrick]

I'm waiting eagerly to see the comparison of Bjornb's alloy testing and compare to his success with lino. Such testing could well be an eye opener.

Lino has 5% Sn. It also has 12% Sb. So in answer to Brad's question on percentage of Sn to Sb, most uses of such an alloy in the metals industry they recommend Sn not exceeding the Sb percentage. Bjornb had great success with 5% Sn, most of the testing here will (mine anyway) will be with no added Sn. Very interesting stuff.

Rick

[tomme boy]

So the antimony in the alloy helps in the forming or swaging through the leade. It makes it more fluid, but at the same time keeps its shape? And it still keeps its hardness at the same time. Is that how I am reading this?

[geargnasher]

Rick, Bjorn has done very well by using a system that cheats in every way possible. I have a similar rifle that cheats a good bit less, but still cheats. That was the whole point in building those rifles, to identify HOW to cheat and prove it. Most of the participants in the XCB project followed Larry's lead with his slow-twist successes. Bjorn done that in spades and taken Larry's idea to the next level. Larry is having a rifle built that will take it even farther with more case capacity and even slower twist while using the same, non-deforming, throat-matched bullet.

But realize how that system works, and that we can get away with a great deal more bullet imbalance and with far less knowledge of alloys and dynamic bullet fit when the bullets aren't spinning any faster than they would be in a normal sporting rifle at the top end of their usual accuracy/velocity window. Most people are doing 1-2", ten-shot groups at 18-1900 fps in their deer rifles with cast. That's about what Bjorn is getting near the top of his rifle's accuracy/velocity window. I believe just about everyone reading this thread understands that they likely won't keep bullets on a sheet of typing paper at 3K fps or even 2500 in a ten-twist sporting rifle using the same methods. I also notice that those currently working on the slow-twist, custom heavy barrel rifle projects are having difficulty getting sub-moa groups consistently, which I hope they will improve upon when they discover how to build better ammunition. I've said it many times here, if they were doing what the guys getting excellent groups at HV from regular rifles were doing, they would be cutting one-hole groups with those XCB rifles. Mine does it, albeit only up to ~ 2300 fps, I don't see why, with proper techniques applied, that a 14-twist 30" barrel can't cut half inch holes at 2700 fps. I KNOW it can, but the proper techniques must be applied.

This thread is about all these things, but don't forget there are very big differences between building a gun that extrapolates what works at 1800 fps and taking a regular rifle, with all it's problems, on up by just applying a different approach to the loading techniques. I'm exploring those differences as far as I know them (not all that much, really, just ask Bob!) and hoping to learn more along the way.

Gear

[45 2.1]

Well, it tends to interfere with heat treating. I also keep hearing that too much tin contributes to "leading" at high velocity but I haven't really experienced that myself.

Gear

Lead, tin and antimony is a complex relationship. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition discusses it... page 87 or so is enlightening. Note the absorbed versus free metal constituents at room temperature in the article, not what an alloy can take in.

[geargnasher]

So the antimony in the alloy helps in the forming or swaging through the leade. It makes it more fluid, but at the same time keeps its shape? And it still keeps its hardness at the same time. Is that how I am reading this?

With a properly designed bullet, and with regard to the first sentence, yes. The transition from case to leade is actually a combination of drawing and extrusion. How much drawing and/or extrusion depends on the bullet design, shape of the ball seat, size of the bullet body, and the pressure the powder applies to it. It's easy to get into the realm of conjecture here because none of us can be inside the gun to observe what's really happening in slow motion, but recovered bullets and targets tell a pretty detailed story of what happens and what works best.

The bullet will only "keep its shape" to the extent that it is supported, guided, and pressure applied in just the right amount at just the right time.

"Pressure applied" is a big thing here, the "net" pressure curve is a combination of powder burn characteristics, the cartridge case design, alloy properties, and the bullet fit/shape dynamic. Think about each of those and how they might work together to yield consistent burn and concentric bullets that travel smoothly and consistently from case neck to muzzle.

Gear

[45 2.1]

So the antimony in the alloy helps in the forming or swaging through the leade. It makes it more fluid, but at the same time keeps its shape? And it still keeps its hardness at the same time. Is that how I am reading this?

In a simplified version, but it is a lot more complicated than that. Tin is the problem in lead/antimony alloys. Keep the percentage a lot lower than antimony and good things happen.

[cbrick]

Ok Gear, but what I would love to see is a side by side comparison of the exact same loads fired in the exact same rifle changing only the alloy and everything else as identical as possible. I think this would be extremely educational for everybody reading these threads, I know it would be for me. Bjornb said a couple of months ago that he blended several different alloys but as yet hasn't posted any results with any of them. I don't care if he is using a specialty built benchrest rifle, it's the firing of different alloys compared to what is known to work with those loads in that rifle that I'm interested in.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Lead, tin and antimony is a complex relationship. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition discusses it... page 87 or so is enlightening. Note the absorbed versus free metal constituents at room temperature in the article, not what an alloy can take in.

You mean I shouldn't store my bullets in the freezer? :kidding:

Gear

[cbrick]

You mean I shouldn't store my bullets in the freezer? :kidding: Gear

:kidding: or not, don't laugh, I did just that years ago for traveling to Championship matches before I learned how slow the age softening process is with HT'd Sb/Sn alloys.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Cheats, CHEATS... did you really post that, do you mean it. You understand that is derogatory. You are insulting them, insulting other members should get you at least a warning. I was tempted to flag this post. You can't cheat unless there is some sort of event and rules. Larry can't be cheating he is the one who defined his quest and clearly ground ruled in slow twist. Bjorn can't be cheating he is following Larry's lead.

I think you owe them both an apology.

Tim

What???? Really? What is the matter with you? I spec'd the freakin' XCB reamer and have the very first rifle ever chambered for it! It's a 12-twist, heavy-barreled bench rifle. I wanted to CHEAT as well, I was sick and tired of having to jump through these hoops to get decent HV accuracy and wanted an EASY proposition. It has proven to be everything I wanted it to be except for the Teflon stock tape that makes it difficult to control without a flat fore-end. I do believe you owe ME an apology.

Gear

Edit to add and give credit where credit is due, the concepts behind what became the XCB were NOT my idea, but they had been proven in other rifles by other people and I was determined to bring the 30x57 concept to fruition. Most here know the story and how all this came about, though much of the discussion, final name, and reamer design were hashed out by four of us on a different forum. Those four of us pooled money, time, and resources to finally make it a reality.

[45 2.1]

You mean I shouldn't store my bullets in the freezer? :kidding:

Gear

I use the freezer for food, not lead. Read the article, you might find out something you never realized.

[geargnasher]

I flipped through one of those at a friend's house a couple years ago, looks like I need to buy my own after all.

Gear

[45 2.1]

I wanted to CHEAT as well, I was sick and tired of having to jump through these hoops to get decent HV accuracy and wanted an EASY proposition.

Hahahahaha............ We have to use a ternary alloy, shoot so many shots, do this or that. There are a lot of ways to HV with castable alloys that have already been written and someone comes along and pigeon holes us into one way that they want. Get real folks. This stuff has been done a lot of places over the last 60 years and someone comes along and tells everyone it can't be done except their way. I've got a bridge that used to reside in Brooklyn that's now in Arizona to sell... any buyers.

[dtknowles]

What???? Really? What is the matter with you? I spec'd the freakin' XCB reamer and have the very first rifle ever chambered for it! It's a 12-twist, heavy-barreled bench rifle. I wanted to CHEAT as well, I was sick and tired of having to jump through these hoops to get decent HV accuracy and wanted an EASY proposition. It has proven to be everything I wanted it to be except for the Teflon stock tape that makes it difficult to control without a flat fore-end. I do believe you owe ME an apology.

Gear

Edit to add and give credit where credit is due, the concepts behind what became the XCB were NOT my idea, but they had been proven in other rifles by other people and I was determined to bring the 30x57 concept to fruition. Most here know the story and how all this came about, though much of the discussion, final name, and reamer design were hashed out by four of us on a different forum. Those four of us pooled money, time, and resources to finally make it a reality.

That is grand, you think I owe you an apology for saying that I think you should apologize to Larry and Bjorn. I am sorry you saw my post I will apologize to everyone reading this thread, while I believe my sentiments were valid, I deleted my post almost as soon as I posted it. It was not in the spirit of this thread.

They did not cheat, you did not cheat. Cheating is wrong, they did not do anything wrong.

How could you have spec'd the XCB reamer, doesn't it use a 30-06 reamer and you just don't go all the way in with it? I guess you could explain exactly what reamer Tim used to make the rifles. You don't see Larry posting to this thread anymore and I don't think Tim ever did. Bjorn does drop a post here once in a while.

I was following Larry's discussions of a perfect cast bullet cartridge before it became the XCB thread. I followed that thread, you can see I have posted to both those threads. I don't know what went on behind the scene.

You now have your apology, can we not start bickering again.

Tim

[Bjornb]

First of all I take zero offense to the "cheating" ribbing, I knew what I ordered from Goodsteel and he delivered in spades. As to what Gear says about accuracy, he is missing one important point: Ever since the first day I shot the rifle with the new barrel (and shot a few single hole groups with jacketed - thanks for not mentioning that), I have been doing nothing but experiment with alloys, lubes and powders. I have not yet stopped to fine tune ANY particular load, since I have wanted to see what a large range of components will do on a broad scale. I'm just about done with this project; I need to shoot through a range of LeveRevolution and H414/WW760 powders, then I will do just that. As for trying out the MP SIL 30 bullet cast in softer alloys and shot with faster powders, I may also give that a try (have the mould), but as you guys say yourselves, bullets cast today won't be ready to shoot for some time.

Rick, I have NOE XCB bullets cast from these different alloys: WW air cooled and heat treated (460 degrees for one hour, quenched in zero degree antifreeze), 87-12-1 water dropped and heat treated the same way, Lyman # 2 water dropped, and linotype. I'm low on lino bullets and will try to cast some up this weekend. The others are ready to go. The plan is to shoot the lino loads (presumably the best performing bullets in my rifle) until accuracy goes south, then load the other alloys identically and shoot them. It will be interesting.

[btroj]

Went out and shot today.
All loads used RE 15, far faster than I was using in my rifle in the past. Why? The bullets I have been using are of a higher Sb/Sn than i intend to use in the future. I think I was using a powder too slow to properly bump them up in the throat. RE 15 is enough faster than the RE 19 I was using to make a difference.
Bullets were all the MP 30 sil sized to .3095 and lubed with Satan lube. In the past I was sizing to .3105 and i wanted to see if the smaller diameter made a difference. Between the smaller diameter and faster powder I actually expected poor results from the top loads and possibly some leading.

Target were shot at 100 yards in sunny conditions, temp around 35 degrees. I did notice a tendency for the first shot to be a bit wide in each group. Cold barrel issue in my opinion, I let the rifle sit for a few minutes between groups. Not horribly out but in each group the first shot was the widest out in that direction.

In order they are 44, 43, 42, 41 and 40 gr of RE 15.

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/CCE1A4D7-845B-4A7E-A36E-9AA23AAAF81A_zpslgsncdqt.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CCE1A4D7-845B-4A7E-A36E-9AA23AAAF81A_zpslgsncdqt.jpg.html)
3.13 inches 2617 fps
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/94F448A4-E865-4848-A37E-31B0AD0D48E0_zpscrjcgwop.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/94F448A4-E865-4848-A37E-31B0AD0D48E0_zpscrjcgwop.jpg.html)
2.94 inches 2547 fps
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/DA422819-6AE8-4437-9287-A45FCE03AB20_zpskblqbup8.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/DA422819-6AE8-4437-9287-A45FCE03AB20_zpskblqbup8.jpg.html)
3.65 inches 2518 fps
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/229AEAB2-E923-4885-9E12-CB617812294E_zpstyr5hjqz.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/229AEAB2-E923-4885-9E12-CB617812294E_zpstyr5hjqz.jpg.html)
3.31 inches 2463 fps
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/CCE1A4D7-845B-4A7E-A36E-9AA23AAAF81A_zpslgsncdqt.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CCE1A4D7-845B-4A7E-A36E-9AA23AAAF81A_zpslgsncdqt.jpg.html)
3.22 inches 2451 fps

I was pleasantly surprised by the results. I will certainly be shooting more RE15 in this rifle. These were all seated well short of the lands. I intend to revisit the 42 to 44 gr region and play with seating depth some too. I may try 45 gr and see what happens. I had someone run some Quickload data for me and it showed a max of 44.9 gr of RE 15 for 2750 fps.

[runfiverun]

when I was first working with my 5.56 I started with linotype [shrug] the little boolits weighed what 52 grains so I figured I could take the financial hit of 2 cents or whatever a boolit.
I wasn't getting quite the accuracy I thought I should and had some odd flyers even with weight sorting.
I decided to try my 4/6/90 alloy I normally use in some of my rifle loads and immediately got better accuracy with reduced flyers.
so I thought I would give the water dropped ww alloy a shot [thinking I could cheap out on this one] I went right back to having too many issues, but if I lowered the velocity [like 700 fps] I could get everything back.
this took me by surprise.
so I had to sit down and really think about what was going on in there...

a lot of it had to do with the nose slamming across the gap and hitting the rifling.
the soft alloy in this case was riveting without any support.
the linotype was not fluid enough to squirt into the barrel under the pressure rise and the drive bands were too damn hard to start engraving without the rifling tying to peel the front of the boolit back.
that was why the in-between alloy was working so well..

[btroj]

Now that makes some sense. We tend to think of firing as an instant event but in reality lots of little things happen in a short period of time. It is that first inch of travel that makes the difference for the bullet.

How are you guys seating your bullets? Hard into lands? Just touching? Way off? Based on what i saw today I am thinking just touching to just off is the way to go. I keep hearing voices in my head say "wiggle room".

[runfiverun]

I hate to say this but I think you got bit by rifle jump.
as in you weren't consistently holding the rifle, I get it a lot with cold weather when I'm trying to feel my fingers and consequently the trigger pull.
this gives me some classic vertical groups or the two group syndrome where one time I am aware of the trigger pull and the next one I'm not so much because of not feeling my fingers and a little better scope alignment awareness.

[Bjornb]

I would most definitely try some bullets seated hard into the lands. Seat long with low neck tension and let the bolt seat the bullet. Never hurts to experiment.

[geargnasher]

What was the maximum peak chamber pressure spec'd for the QL program? Too much going on to tell for sure, but it looks like you worked through two full lateral harmonic cycles and ended up where you started, just a touch shy of a happy point. Do I detect some bullet yaw? I wonder if sizing .311" wouldn't be better for support in critical areas if you have some brass that will chamber them sized that large.

Gear

[btroj]

I hate to say this but I think you got bit by rifle jump.
as in you weren't consistently holding the rifle, I get it a lot with cold weather when I'm trying to feel my fingers and consequently the trigger pull.
this gives me some classic vertical groups or the two group syndrome where one time I am aware of the trigger pull and the next one I'm not so much because of not feeling my fingers and a little better scope alignment awareness.

I tend to agree. It wasn't cold per se but certainly not warm by any stretch. Gear wouldn't have ventured out at all, Eutectic would have worn shorts.

The 44 gr group had a couple that were out where I didn't feel I had any good follow thru.

[dtknowles]

Now that makes some sense. We tend to think of firing as an instant event but in reality lots of little things happen in a short period of time. It is that first inch of travel that makes the difference for the bullet.

How are you guys seating your bullets? Hard into lands? Just touching? Way off? Based on what i saw today I am thinking just touching to just off is the way to go. I keep hearing voices in my head say "wiggle room".

I suggest either a little off or hard into the lands. You can try for just touching but then there is very little room for error. Unless you have very tight control on COAL and ogive shape some will be just touching but others might be a little off or a little more than just touching and that makes a difference in powder pressure rise. Shooting for 0.003" off will make sure none of the rounds is touching the lands and the worse rounds will only be maybe 0.005 off and that will make for more consistent pressure rise. This assumes no crimp and constant neck tension.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Dang I'm too slow.

Run, you described exactly what I've been trying to explain: "the linotype was not fluid enough to squirt into the barrel under the pressure rise and the drive bands were too damn hard to start engraving without the rifling tying to peel the front of the boolit back." I have a picture, or series of them, in my head that I've been wanting to draw and post here showing what actually happens to the bullet when it's launched and how the alloy can be made to optimize how the bullet deforms.

The second part, about soft alloy and the jump works ok with super-slow powders and buffer...sometimes. Sometimes soft bullets rivet because the DON'T have jump, but do ok jammed if they take on the leade angle and rifling gradually instead of banging to full, matching contact all at once. Case in point, the NOE XCB bullet does well in .308 rifles whose throat angle is nothing close to the nose angle. I don't know about the rest of you, but at 35 F I tend to focus on being cold more than the necessary mechanics of shooting a tight group.

Gear

[cbrick]

Rick, I have NOE XCB bullets cast from these different alloys: WW air cooled and heat treated (460 degrees for one hour, quenched in zero degree antifreeze), 87-12-1 water dropped and heat treated the same way, Lyman # 2 water dropped, and linotype. I'm low on lino bullets and will try to cast some up this weekend. The others are ready to go. The plan is to shoot the lino loads (presumably the best performing bullets in my rifle) until accuracy goes south, then load the other alloys identically and shoot them. It will be interesting.

Interesting? No, that's not the right word. Fascinating is more like it.

I'd like to see the exact same loads, same bullet, same exact everything except the alloy. Then post side by side groups. That way we can see exactly what each alloy did as compared with other alloys and the known groups of lino. Great stuff here. We could each do all of that but your already so far ahead in this it would be kinda silly for 10 people to do the same.

Lino could well be the best choice in your rifle with a given load but what if?

What if one of those other alloys did better?

Rick

[Bjornb]

Interesting? No, that's not the right word. Fascinating is more like it.I'd like to see the exact same loads, same bullet, same exact everything except the alloy. Then post side by side groups. That way we can see exactly what each alloy did as compared with other alloys and the known groups of lino. Great stuff here. We could each do all of that but your already so far ahead in this it would be kinda silly for 10 people to do the same.Lino could well be the best choice in your rifle with a given load but what if? What if one of those other alloys did better?Rick

Then I would switch in a heartbeat. I believe in concrete evidence.

[cbrick]

Brad, were you wearing a heavy winter coat while shooting? Dunno about you but I cannot get consistent with the stock on my shoulder when wearing a heavy jacket. Just doesn't work for me.

Rick

[btroj]

What was the maximum peak chamber pressure spec'd for the QL program? Too much going on to tell for sure, but it looks like you worked through two full lateral harmonic cycles and ended up where you started, just a touch shy of a happy point. Do I detect some bullet yaw? I wonder if sizing .311" wouldn't be better for support in critical areas if you have some brass that will chamber them sized that large.

Gear

No yaw, just targets not tight to the backer. The club uses OSB and it is littered with staples. About impossible to get a target really flat, these had a 1/2 bow in the middle of them.

I went to .3095 as a .3105 shows a ring of scuffing when seated hard into the throat. Told me my bullet was over sized. I wanted to see if going smaller would help by reducing that scuffing. I was afrai of leading actually with a bullet that size but the rifle shows no signs of trouble. 50 rounds with no cleaning at all.

[btroj]

Brad, were you wearing a heavy winter coat while shooting? Dunno about you but I cannot get consistent with the stock on my shoulder when wearing a heavy jacket. Just doesn't work for me.

Rick

Darn tootin I was. A nice heavy Carhart to be exact. I try to have light shoulder feel on the butt. The rifle is heavy enough to shoot free recoil so I try and just barely have a feel on the stock.

I keep sayin that Nebraska winters aren't for group shooting but keep getting the "ya need to shoot more" message. For me a 35 degree, low wind day with sun is good as it gets. Next week I may get to shoot in the low 50s! Woo hoo

[cbrick]

Darn tootin I was. A nice heavy Carhart to be exact.

Well sheet, I'll bet Bjornb doesn't wear a heavy Carhart coat when shooting. [smilie=1:

Rick

[btroj]

Bet he would if he was shooting in Nebraska in January. I will say it is interesting to know that Gear is possibly getting snow today and I have mid 40s and sun right now. I love Karma

[geargnasher]

42F and snowing an absolute BLIZZARD of huge, soggy flakes for about eight hours straight. Visibility down to half a mile at 8:00 this morning. Colder now, and the precipitation quit. Tomorrow supposed to be sunny and in the 60s, I hope to get some fair-weather shooting in myself... and even at 60 I'll be wearing a light jacket.

Gear

[btroj]

Keep that white stuff down there. We need moisture but I don't want that kind.

[tomme boy]

I despise RL15 for cast. It just does not like to burn right. Jacketed it works fine, but lead I have all kinds of problems with it. How come no one seems to work with IMR 4064? Would that be an alternative to the RL15?

[ShooterAZ]

I am using IMR4064, and getting good results. Varget as well.

[btroj]

I'm using RE15 because I have 5 pounds of it. I like the powder, always got good results with it. Even use it for max loads in 30-30.
4064 would be a good choice too, I just don't have any.

Can't say why but I have always been drawn towards Alliant powders.

[btroj]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/A4F4C69D-F91C-497F-9B2A-EF985EC1DC1D_zpsepimzzam.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/A4F4C69D-F91C-497F-9B2A-EF985EC1DC1D_zpsepimzzam.jpg.html)

Gear, this shows the marks on the bullet I was talking about. The bullet on the left is sized .3115, the right is .3095. The left one has a distinct band where it was scuffed, a bunch, by the throat. The one on the right bears no such marking. Both show where they were in firm contact with the lands.

The bullets were seated way long then chambered. I had to seat the larger one a bit deeper just to get it to chamber at all. The damage on the tip of the left bullet is from a cleaning rod I used to removed the case when it wouldn't chamber fully. The difference in effort to chamber the two was huge.

I may make a new sizer and lap it to .310 and see how that works.

[geargnasher]

Great photos, Brad, very illustrative. Now I'm going to say something that may sound really stupid to you...at first. Try some at .311 and seat deeper, just to kiss the throat entrance if anything at all, and put that "shaving" and "engraving" out of your mind for a bit. Load ten or so at 44 grains and see if that doesn't change the game. A hint: Things that happen at high speed aren't the same as what happens at a crawl. As for the shaving, this is what your extrudable bullet, crafted from an alloy that gives good grain shear per the Hall-Petch relationship, is for.

Gear

[btroj]

OK, can do. I can try some with a few different diameters and see how that changes the results. I will load them to the same depth as I shot today, those were off the lands at least 10 thou.

Hall-Petch huh? Interesting reading. If I understand it properly, and I am no metallurgist or engineer, it tells me that larger grains have fewer boundaries. Each boundary acts to increase the force required to deform the substance. As we want extrusion to occur easily we want large grains. As tin refines the size of the antimony grains the more tin we add the smaller our grains become and the larger the force required to extrude the alloy.

That close enough?

I gotta go take an aspirin, my head hurts now. I hope Rick doesn't read this, his head will explode.

[cbrick]

Hey no problem, no Greek involved there. That stuff is pretty easy to understand but balancing a checkbook? Scary stuff there.

Rick

[btroj]

Umm, the equation does contain Greek letters.

[Grump]

late to the party here, but does anyone have any experiences with the Lyman 311413 above 2,000 fps?

Typically used in the .30 Carbine, I've seen it work perfectly with three different lubes and a Hornady gas check up to 1900 chrono'd, but that's the limit of THAT cartridge in that barrel length.

I just keep looking at it and the .308, but I need a different load for that like I need a hole in the head. I have more than 150 light "practice" rounds with J-words laying around I'm not even using.

Back to that 120-gr boolit. What we were calling our "hard" alloy was SAECO 8/BHN 14-ish, but some later pours were down to 7/11. No difference in performance.

I'm going to try some in the Carbine at S 5/BHN 8. That alloy is doing just fine in .357s at 1250 fps.

[runfiverun]

you got it with the tin being a grain refiner.
it only occurs at smaller amounts though.
once you get over about .4-.5% it starts to act as part of the alloy's matrix.

going to 310 is a good idea it's what I use.:lol:
anyway if you look at that picture again you'll see where the 311 boolit has actually scuffed a little ridge of alloy into the groove.
it's most likely on the bottom and from being fed into the rifle.
the 309 just doesn't have enough scuffing for my likes, the boolit should scuff into the ball seat area and leave concentric marks all the way around the boolit on that drive band.
that, the nose engraving, and the little flair I put on the front on my case mouth is what helps align the front of the case.

you have to protect the boolit...

remember my super conscientious casting and alloy fiddling?
that was to get that damn near exact 310 diameter from the mold.

[btroj]

I can easily make another sizer. Sure is handy having a lathe to make those things. Here soon I will have enough 30 cal sizers to cover .3095 to .312 in .0005 increments.

The .3115 bullet has that scuff mark clear around the bullet. The .3095 has none.

Looking at the fact the .3095 bullet isn't scuffed I'm a bit amazed it shot as well as it did and that it didn't lead at all.

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/Mobile%20Uploads/C5E87E67-174D-4323-B0BF-C7AB621558D6_zpsjoe5dzzm.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/C5E87E67-174D-4323-B0BF-C7AB621558D6_zpsjoe5dzzm.jpg.html)

Just sized one to .3102 and it shows a faint mark from the throat. Not a scuff but a definite rub mark. Hard to see in the photo but up close it is a shiny mark where the bullet was sized down just a hair.

And for the record, nothing shows every little flaw in a bullet like taking a photo of it.

[runfiverun]

grump I have that mold, [had it for a while now] but haven't even cast a boolit from it yet and may not for a while.
my casting/swaging/lube-sizing/fishing/camping gear/storage etc. area is completely torn apart at the moment and may be for a while.
it's taken me 2 full day's to move across one 14' bench area revamping everything as I go.

man I got a lot of stuff.

[btroj]

Stuff isn't the right word. The proper word isn't approved of here.

[runfiverun]

definite rub mark...I like it.
you can chamber and de-chamber the round and just re-engrave the nose while everything just nestles into place.

I'd leave the oal a tick short and let the nose guide the boolit into the rifling and let the front drive band take care of the rest, you have the angle on the front of it for a reason, let it do it's job.

when you sized did you notice any wiping on the boolit itself?


and nope it's stuff.
I'm throwing away the other than useful to me things, the kids think it's a gold mine in the garbage box..
so far I got three Ponsess warren shot-shell reloaders set-up, two reloading type swage presses, and three S.A.S. swagers set up on the bench.
all my fishing stuff is sorted out and hung up or boxed and inventoried [I'm good for 5-20 years on most things there]
all my bullet jackets are sorted out and within reach, instead of in 2 other places.
[remind me not to buy any more 22 swaging stuff ever again, except the core mold and core swage die I can't find [yet]
all of my 5 gallon buckets of ready to go boolits are stored underneath, and I have 2 open shelves in the cupboard above the bench.

tomorrow I start around the corner of the bench, i'll tear out a junky storage thingy there and build a new shelf system.
then i'll transfer all the little 700-2,000 count boxes of boolits to it, clearing out more room for the annealing machine and the SS pin tumbler on another bench, and hopefully emptying some shelf space out of the reloading room.
that should pretty much kill the day and move me another 6 foot along.:lol:

[btroj]

No crimp or scraping groove on this bullet. Look at the 30 sil by Miha. The scuff is from seating into the throat. The bullet is just large enough to scuff on the throat entrance, just what I want. I am not concerned with this giving me leading as I shot this same bullet sized larger, more scuffing, and got zero leading.

[cbrick]

Here is a similar example that failed, it's SAECO 140 gr 6.5 for a Shilen match barrel on an XP 6.5 BR from several years ago. Note the throat engraving on the front driving band, note also that the SAECO nose did not engrave or even touch in the Shilen Match grade rifling. Bad mojo for a bore rider.

128432

Rick

[btroj]

Great example of a bore rider not bore rider-ing. All that nose just bouncing around with no support. Luckily my 30 sil has stood nose support and doesn't have to scuff the throat like that.
I have 3 different sizes ready to be loaded, all from the same batch of bullets. Will see what, if any, difference I get from different sizes.

[45 2.1]

Here is a similar example that failed, it's SAECO 140 gr 6.5 for a Shilen match barrel on an XP 6.5 BR from several years ago. Note the throat engraving on the front driving band, note also that the SAECO nose did not engrave or even touch in the Shilen Match grade rifling. Bad mojo for a bore rider. Rick

It does make a difference who makes the barrel. All manufacturers do not have or use the same exact dimensions. As an example, the same boolit in a Lothar Walther barrel in 6.5 Grendel fits perfectly........ Fit in a lot of cases really depends on what alloy you use and how you treat it.

[cbrick]

It does make a difference who makes the barrel. All manufacturers do not have or use the same exact dimensions. As an example, the same boolit in a Lothar Walther barrel in 6.5 Grendel fits perfectly........ Fit in a lot of cases really depends on what alloy you use and how you treat it.

Yep, agree completely. That bullet in the pic is CWW +2% Sn convection oven HT to 18 BHN destined for only about 1800-1850 fps. I have the RCBS 140 6.5 also, a very similar bullet except the front driving band is shorter and the nose casts a bit larger. At 18 BHN the SAECO had to be seated much deeper due to the length of the front band and hard bolt closure at 18.

Pic of the SAECO on the left and RCBS on the right. Difference in the color of the driving bands is the SAECO had been sized & HT and the RCBS not. Both of these bullets are the same alloy. I don't have, wish I did, a pic of the RCBS chambered like the one above of the SAECO. The RCBS did engrave the nose with rifling and did shoot much better in the Shilen barrel.

128440

Rick

[btroj]

Isn't that the point of this entire exercise? Learning how to find a bullet design, alloy, and load that works in a given gun?
Once you get the basics down it is much easier to work with a new rifle.

[cbrick]

Great example of a bore rider not bore rider-ing. All that nose just bouncing around with no support. Luckily my 30 sil has stood nose support and doesn't have to scuff the throat like that.
I have 3 different sizes ready to be loaded, all from the same batch of bullets. Will see what, if any, difference I get from different sizes.

I don't think bouncing around is correct. I think that bullet promptly slumped over, HT or not, and that's the way it went down the bore and that's the way it exited the bore.

Rick

[btroj]

You could be onto slumpthing. Either way, the nose wasn't supported at a time when it desperately needed support.

[45 2.1]

Isn't that the point of this entire exercise? Learning how to find a bullet design, alloy, and load that works in a given gun?
Once you get the basics down it is much easier to work with a new rifle.

One of the major basics is learning what alloy constituents do, for or against you. I believe you've heard that before. Once you learn, you can tailor a boolit to do a variety of things, including excellent high velocity accuracy.

[btroj]

Oh, I've heard it before, a time or two. I am starting to get a better handle on understanding it.

Not too much tin and wiggle room keep bouncing around in my brain when I work on this.

Two years ago had you told me I could shoot a rilfe at 2600 fps with a cast bullet and RE15 at over 45K PSI and keep them on paper, much less expect a group, I would have laughed. Thinking a bullet similar to 50/50 WW/Pb would do it would have been even more far fetched.