simple Hi-Tek coating

[Gateway Bullets]

Magana - what color HiTek , load & alloy for 30/30? Green didn't work for me, above ~ 1200 fps, but did in 9 & 40. HF works fine in 30/30, try the dry tumble method.

I would go with either the red copper or metallic gold. What kind of problems are you having?

[popper]

Gateway - the green gave me a hard plastic ring in the bore at the barrel band when run faster than 1200. I was just experimenting - I PC my rifle boolits for other reasons.

[Magana559]

I'm using red copper for my rifle rounds. I shoot a 180gr .311 gas check with 27gr of imr 4895 with a CCI military primers.

When I upped the powder to 28gr the accuracy improved, at 29gr accuracy was great but I started to show pressure signs so I'm going to load with faster powder...I'm thinking imr 3031.

[Magana559]

At 29gr I was figuring 2000fps or so.

[popper]

LeverE will give you lower pressure and it is much slower than 4895. I tried it in my 24" 308 upper and it worked fine.

[silverjay]

Are 2 coats of gold good for 9mm or should I use 3?

[Ausglock]

2 is fine.

[HI-TEK]

Are 2 coats of gold good for 9mm or should I use 3?

Generally two coats is enough, especially when you have some experience with coating techniques.
Thicknesses of coatings can vary according to your individual process methods.
For people who are perfectionists, applying three very thin coats does produce a much better and even finish, and, with 3 coats, you reduce the possibility of surfaces not being coated adequately.
In most instances, using 3 very thin coating ends up using less coating overall, and appearance is great and performance is great.
As you become more experienced, you can achieve 3 coat results with with two coats.
Hope it helps with your decisions.

[gunoil]

Maybe, next year the " new nano hi-tek forever stain" ? Just coat one time. Prob one color.

[Ausglock]

Well... so much for keeping it quiet, gunslick.
You just let the cat out of the bag.

This week, I'm testing the new HI-TEK bright red, pink, purple, sky blue and ocean blue and silver.

[Gateway Bullets]

Well... so much for keeping it quiet, gunslick.
You just let the cat out of the bag.

This week, I'm testing the new HI-TEK bright red, pink, purple, sky blue and ocean blue and silver.

Man it must be nice to be so close to Joe!!!!

[TES]

well I am not having great results with the green. Is my range lead alloy too soft for this?

Shooting through....

Glock 19
S&W mp .40
RI 1911 .45

All are seeing leading.

Coating passes smash and acetone test.

Dunno what I am doing wrong here!?!

Pulled several for each caliber and seeing no removal of coating.

[Gremlin460]

well I am not having great results with the green. Is my range lead alloy too soft for this?

Shooting through....

Glock 19
S&W mp .40
RI 1911 .45

All are seeing leading.

Coating passes smash and acetone test.

Dunno what I am doing wrong here!?!

Pulled several for each caliber and seeing no removal of coating.

I had a simular issue, we tried loading 20 rounds at start load, and 20 +.2 gn and another 20 up another +.2gn again up to full load... shooting these in batches allowed us to find the "sweet" spot for no leading and best accuracy. That system may help you.

[TES]

well are you saying that speed matters here?

Does a slow bullet have a friction coefficient that is more abrasive to the coating?

Fast makes the coating "slicker"?

Joe can you please chime in here? Kinda in a hard spot right now and need to have some real data not "this might help".

Thanks

[gunoil]

Hot dang, and BBQ'ed aligator tail. I must have ESP.
Trevor





If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

[TES]

I had a simular issue, we tried loading 20 rounds at start load, and 20 +.2 gn and another 20 up another +.2gn again up to full load... shooting these in batches allowed us to find the "sweet" spot for no leading and best accuracy. That system may help you.

Please enlighten us with your load data...This forum is about helping and not about vague responses.

Is there any load data to support this coating?

Is it a bullet coating or an experiment?..

In my humble opinion if you are going to sell a true bullet coating there needs to be data to support it not just "this is what worked for me" post from random folks!

Until the maker puts some sort of start point that works for this stuff I am calling complete BS.

Are there any ammo manufactures making completed ammo with this?

If so who?

I don't want to hear from bullet manufacturers because they can play the "lets rule this out" game all day long.

Supposedly this has been used for decades but there is no published data?

If there is anyone out there feel free to chime in..

If I am wrong....I'll shave my head!

[popper]

TES - my first try with the green was not good. Second try - 40, 9 & 30/30 were much better. My oven is PID controlled so I know the temp and time. Shooting as cast .358 caused leading, sizing 357 worked fine. I suspect scraping in the throat. My alloy is low Sb, cooked an extra 30 min @ 350F and WD. Loaded a bunch of lower Sb & AC to compare with normal alloy AC. These have set a week, hope to shoot next week. I shot the 30/30 no GC @ ~1200, 0.310 from a Marlin that likes 0.310. No leading. Running faster gave a mess but no observable leading. The 40 load of 231 is min. Hodgdon load for jacketed. 9 is same as factory 115 jacketed - from 3 XDs guns. No leading. friction coefficient is a function of the materials and force applied. It doesn't change with fps unless the coating goes soft.

[TES]

TES - my first try with the green was not good. Second try - 40, 9 & 30/30 were much better. My oven is PID controlled so I know the temp and time. Shooting as cast .358 caused leading, sizing 357 worked fine. I suspect scraping in the throat. My alloy is low Sb, cooked an extra 30 min @ 350F and WD. Loaded a bunch of lower Sb & AC to compare with normal alloy AC. These have set a week, hope to shoot next week. I shot the 30/30 no GC @ ~1200, 0.310 from a Marlin that likes 0.310. No leading. Running faster gave a mess but no observable leading. The 40 load of 231 is min. Hodgdon load for jacketed. 9 is same as factory 115 jacketed - from 3 XDs guns. No leading. friction coefficient is a function of the materials and force applied. It doesn't change with fps unless the coating goes soft.

So your observations are a direct contradiction to the sweet spot of velocity for the previous post......jeeze

Is there any freaking data for this or is it an experiment?

When I load copper I don't get you did this wrong or try this that or the other or the die set you are using is wrong try these instead.

I want to see what you are doing if you have success loading this.

Powder
Primers
Powder weight
dies
bullet..weight, shape, alloy....etc
Bake times
acetone used (brand)
OAL
Crimp
fsp across a chrony
and on and on..........

Just like you would see in a manual.

Other wise it is just a guess isn't it?

Can you really sell a product that works in one case and not in most?

No..you can't.

[jcobb651]

Yes. He can. It works for me.

Reloading manuals are items of reference that give you guidelines. Its up to you to find what works in your guns. Just like the suggestions in this thread. They are suggestikns for starting points. If you dont want to work up your own loads either stick with what you know or buy commercial. No need to bash what works just because you dont understand it.

[Moonman]

Shot some 230RN 45ACP this afternoon along with some 38 Specials in 158SWC and 148 DEWC.

Bullseye powder, Starline Brass, Federal Primers, My Castings and My Coatings of HI-TEC GOLD

purchased from Donnie at Bayou Bullets.

LOW SMOKE - - - -NO LEADING, I do like that.

You can load the COATED projectiles with CAST info from loading manuals.

Bayou Bullets, Gateway Bullets and SNS Casting have coated bullets for sale.

I coated them myself and baked in a BREVILLE BRO800XL "SMART" Oven ($250).

The Breville oven has GREAT heat control for consistency of the COATING CURING.

RELOADING for YOUR FIREARMS requires WORK to establish what YOUR SPECIFIC FIREARM DESIRES.

Lazy way out is to strictly shoot commercially loaded ammo and be happy with it.

[TES]

Shot some 230RN 45ACP this afternoon along with some 38 Specials in 158SWC and 148 DEWC.

Bullseye powder, Starline Brass, Federal Primers, My Castings and My Coatings of HI-TEC GOLD

purchased from Donnie at Bayou Bullets.

LOW SMOKE - - - -NO LEADING, I do like that.

You can load the COATED projectiles with CAST info from loading manuals.

Bayou Bullets, Gateway Bullets and SNS Casting have coated bullets for sale.

I coated them myself and baked in a BREVILLE BRO800XL "SMART" Oven ($250).

The Breville oven has GREAT heat control for consistency of the COATING CURING.

RELOADING for YOUR FIREARMS requires WORK to establish what YOUR SPECIFIC FIREARM DESIRES.

Lazy way out is to strictly shoot commercially loaded ammo and be happy with it.

What was your lead hardness or BHN? What was the alloy... What was your starting load and with what? Where did you end up on your load? What type of press was used and which dies...and on on and on. These are the things that are going to help people reading this thread and helping them to purchase this product. This is my point there is no real data for a starting point. post your load data so we can start somewhere.

[jcobb651]

100% wheel weight alloy. Haven't tested hardness. Mold used was a lee 200 grain round nose flat point in .45 acp. Boolits were coated with 5 parts gold color, 1 part catalyst, 7 parts acetone. Allowed to dry overnight and baked at 375 for 10 minutes. After cooling overnight they were resized to .452. Coated again using same mixture and allowed to dry overnight. Baked at 375 again for 10 minutes. Cooled overnight and coated again. Another overnight drying and another bake for 10 at 375. 4.8 grains of Titegroup with cci primers and winchester brass. All loaded on a Hornady lock n load AP. Heres a pic of the rounds fired from a Springfield loaded parked. 5 rounds each from the 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/23/a2avapur.jpg

[Moonman]

TES,

The 45's were loaded on a Dillon Square D, the 38's on a Hornady LNL-AP.

I use a combination of Dies (Dillon, Hornady, Reading).

I only shoot handguns INDOORS and not in Competition.

The Hardness of my lead about 8-8 1/2 Brinell using a Cabine Tree Tester.

The LEAD was mostly STICK ON WHEEL WEIGHTS and a LITTLE TIN (60/40 solder).

The SOFT LEAD surprised an AUSSIE an he'll give it a try, his alloy is mostly 15/16 Brinell.

Most commercially HI-TEK coated projectiles are 92-6-2(tin) alloys.

38 Special loads were 2.7/2.8 grains Bullseye with both 158 SWC and 148 DEWC seat to crimp groove. (Lee Molds)

45 ACP 230RN were 4.0/4.2 Grains Bullseye. 1.250 C.O.L. (N.O.E. Mold).

Projectiles were HI-TEC "GOLD" coating. (mine, not Commercially coated ones).

Coatings were GOLD 5 Parts, 1 Part Catalyst, 7 Parts Acetone.

Put 7 parts Acetone in a 20 ounce "COKE" Bottle (won't melt).

Add 1 Part Catalyst, SHAKE-SHAKE-SHAKE.

Add 5 Parts GOLD Color, SHAKE-SHAKE-SHAKE.

I usually coat 5 pounds of projectiles at a time.

FIRST LIGHT COAT SHOULD BARELY SHOW COLOR.

COATING THE LUBE GROOVES IS NOT NECESSARY,

SOME SHOOTERS ARE HAVING MOULDS MADE WITH NO LUBE GROOVES.

I WAS using 2 COATINGS & BAKING, 380F for 10 Minutes each coat..

I'm Trying 3 LIGHTER COATINGS NOW.

Projectiles sized to .452, 38's were sized to .358.

You need to SLUG YOUR FIREARMS to check for their size.

[Ausglock]

I can not get the forum to work on my computers. I can only see it here in my phone. Anyone got any idea what to di? I cleared the dna like it said to do. But still no go.

[Moonman]

Trevor,

Can you try to RELOAD the FORUM on your computer?

[Moonman]

Trevor,
They went to a NEW SERVER.

[Liberty'sSon]

Tes, could you offer more specifics on your procedures? Specific steps of your coating process and your load data. There may be many ways that work for different people with their guns, but if we had the specifics of your process someone here might be able to see something that you are missing. One thing I have seen that can cause a problem is Lee FCDs unless they are used very carefully. In short, the load data should be the same as published lead load data for a specific bullet profile. The only real variables should be the coating process and making sure the coating isn't damaged in the loading process.

[Ausglock]

Thanks to Beagle333 for the instructions..
I'm Baaaaaacccccckkkkkkkk hehehehe..

TES. the process is really quite easy.
reloading is also customizing ammo to your gun.
what works for others may not work for you.
Instead is pizzing and moaning and wanting everyone to do your work for you, how about having a go and trying things for yourself like others have suggested.
Reloading is not an exact science.
I use dillon and lee dies. I load coated bullets in 7 different calibres and guns.
I use commercial coated and home coated. All work.

The only issue I have had was in 40S&W using a lee carbide factory crimp die. this caused the bullets to be undersized to the bore and it severely leaded.
I have run light loads and heavy loads with fast and slow powders in all calibres from 9mm to 45ACP.
Trial and error, my friend. trial and error.

[popper]

TES - no contradiction. I shoot a light load as that is what I like. In 40-165 FB with HP38 you only get 100 fps, 1K psi variation from min to max load so what fps sweet spot are you wanting? Not enough variation for any effect on the coating, prob not even for the alloy. Oh, mixed brass, cci spp, RCBS die & cut down 41WM M expander, 38P M for the 9.

[TES]

Thanks to Beagle333 for the instructions..
I'm Baaaaaacccccckkkkkkkk hehehehe..

TES. the process is really quite easy.
reloading is also customizing ammo to your gun.
what works for others may not work for you.
Instead is pizzing and moaning and wanting everyone to do your work for you, how about having a go and trying things for yourself like others have suggested.
Reloading is not an exact science.
I use dillon and lee dies. I load coated bullets in 7 different calibres and guns.
I use commercial coated and home coated. All work.

The only issue I have had was in 40S&W using a lee carbide factory crimp die. this caused the bullets to be undersized to the bore and it severely leaded.
I have run light loads and heavy loads with fast and slow powders in all calibres from 9mm to 45ACP.
Trial and error, my friend. trial and error.

So do the commercial casters make bullets that work in every gun or just theirs? If I make factory loads they might lead in one gun and not in others? That's my point Trev. Its really hard to make a Magic bullet for everyone's different guns. I am running an ammo business and can't make each round specifically for a 1000 different guns.

I only put enough crimp on the case to allow function. I have pulled many bullets now with the coating still in place. I still get leading.

I have worked up the loads from minimums to max and it does not help. Well the amount of leading changes but it is still there.

[popper]

TES - now you got to your real problem. Your criteria for selling ammo is different from selling boolits. Personally, I'd go to dry tumbling PC for your application. I've not had any problems in any rifle or pistol - definitely more durable, tougher & less critical process. I can load it just as jacketed. You might look into the Valspar paint method.

[gunoil]

The hi-tek 500 mold release lube helped me alot and hi-tek-supercoat sticks better. You know i like to call it stain instead of coat.

[Gateway Bullets]

Tes,

We do not make projectiles that work for every gun. We make projectiles in various shapes, sizes, weights, and hardness. It is up to the individual reloader to find the projectile application for his or her own gun.

Do we make projectile that work just in our guns? Yes and no. I use 98% of the same projectiles that I produce and are for sale to the general public.

Do I have molds that I use only for my guns? You bet ya.

If you are running an ammo business, you need to find a load that works with majority of your customers and produce that. If the customer calls and what's something different, then you charge accordingly. I have a few guys that want custom sized projectiles. They call and order and I make accordingly. Other than that, it's the "standard" size projectile!

I don't see Remington, Winchester, etc etc making various loads for every gun. They adjust the powder to match the gr of the projectile used.

[TES]

Tes,

We do not make projectiles that work for every gun. We make projectiles in various shapes, sizes, weights, and hardness. It is up to the individual reloader to find the projectile application for his or her own gun.

Do we make projectile that work just in our guns? Yes and no. I use 98% of the same projectiles that I produce and are for sale to the general public.

Do I have molds that I use only for my guns? You bet ya.

If you are running an ammo business, you need to find a load that works with majority of your customers and produce that. If the customer calls and what's something different, then you charge accordingly. I have a few guys that want custom sized projectiles. They call and order and I make accordingly. Other than that, it's the "standard" size projectile!

I don't see Remington, Winchester, etc etc making various loads for every gun. They adjust the powder to match the gr of the projectile used.

I totally get what you are saying...that's what I have made for my clients. I am starting to think that this coating is not up to speed for an ammo business...that is unless I am doing something wrong and am just not seeing it. I'm not giving up yet. I am trying a few more things before I call it quits on Hi tek coating

[kweidner]

I have my 06 and I have a small ammo business. I have sold 1000's of round coated with hytek. Not one complaint. I load for 9,40,.380,.357,.45acp,.38 special, etc. All coated with hytek. I use black in lower pressure stuff .380 and .45 and gold on the rest. The biggest thing is getting some old timers to try a colored boolit lol. Once they try it they love it. I use hardball lead and load to sammi lengths and crimps and run nothing hot. Secret is in the consistent heat in the oven. Experiment and waste time and resources or just buy an accurate consistent oven.

[TES]

I have my 06 and I have a small ammo business. I have sold 1000's of round coated with hytek. Not one complaint. I load for 9,40,.380,.357,.45acp,.38 special, etc. All coated with hytek. I use black in lower pressure stuff .380 and .45 and gold on the rest. The biggest thing is getting some old timers to try a colored boolit lol. Once they try it they love it. I use hardball lead and load to sammi lengths and crimps and run nothing hot. Secret is in the consistent heat in the oven. Experiment and waste time and resources or just buy an accurate consistent oven.

Think the oven may be the problem...dunno. Testing today!

[Ausglock]

TES.

Of all the commercial cast and coated used here in OZ, there would be less than 1% of users have issues with them. And most of their problems are from using the lee seat/crimp die in a pro 1000. This scraped the coating off.

Winchester Australia have used commercial cast and coated pills to offer cheaper reloaded 40S&W and 9mm training/practice ammo to the various Australian police forces when they have been converting to Glock22 and Glock17 and the MP5. All the fired brass gets collected and sent back to winchester for reloading again. My Pistol club's outdoor ranges are used by the local police for their training venue.

Coated loads that work in every 9mm I have ever tried.
125gr Conical BB over 4.2gr AP-70
125gr RN over 4.5gr W231

45ACP
230gr RN over 4.6gr AP-50
230gr over 6.0gr Power Pistol
230gr over 5.4gr AP-70
200SWC over 5.0gr W231

38 Super Minor load
125gr RN over 4.6gr AP-70

38 Supercomp Major load
125gr Conical BB over 8.3gr AP-100

All the AP powders are available in the US as Hodgdon powders.

[Moonman]

Tes,

Give a BREVILLE BRO800XL "SMART" Convection Oven ($250) a look.

I do 5 pounds of alloy batches, coat and bake.

I think Gateway Bullets does 35 pound batches.

OVEN TEMPERATURE "ACCURACY" and holding that temp with a fast recovery time

is the SECRET.

Many tabletop models have POOR temps and also overshoot temp.

They also on many models CAN'T REACH THE TEMPS.

Larger operations use Pizza Ovens.

Some folks put external temp controllers on their ovens too. (the Breville works fine by itself)

[Ausglock]

I cast 5000 9mm yesterday.
going to cast a few 1000 45 pills today along with a few 1000 44's.
Starting to get a bit warm this time of year (100 to 110 Deg F)

Waiting on the care package from Hitek Joe with the new colours.
Really want to try the Rudolf nose Red and the new Elf green.

[Gremlin460]

You really need to find a better naming regime Trevor, I can even feel Joe wince from here!!

I have stopped testing loads in my 9mm until early next year. I have a new barrel on order so developing loads for this one is a moot point. Roll on 2014!!

[TES]

Today:

Started with pure lead and added tin for the desired BHN.

Cast about 200 and have started coating. I am using a convection oven for those that don't know....A floor model not a toaster oven.
I have placed an internal Therm so I can get the temp to 375 with bullets in the oven.
Then I set the timer for 10min.
I am testing between coats 5-1-7 with acetone to ensure I'm not layering over uncured coats.
(think this may have been my problem)

Will update.

[Love Life]

9 minutes for 9mm and 38 special bullets.
12 minutes for 45 acp and 40 cal bullets.

[kbstenberg]

I am getting my oven (breville 800 super dupper) in a couple of days from Ebay. So I haven't coated anything yet.
Hi-tec in post 2076 you stressed useing 3 lite coats. If I am tying that rout rather than 2 coats. Should I use a higher percentage of acetone? Say a 5-1-8 or 5-1-9 %.
Everyone stresses shaking the containers a lot to keep everything mixed good. Has anyone put a tray in there vibrating case cleaner to hold the bottle and keep the contents mixed. The vibrator has to be on:kidding:
When applying the HT to the bullets do most people tumble the bullets by hand in a bowl. Or do they use some kind of tumbler?
Kevin

[Moonman]

kbstenburg,

I use 5 GOLD METALLIC Color, 1 Catalyst, 7 ACETONE

Add Acetone to a 20 ounce "COKE BOTTLE", as they don't melt,

Add Catalyst and SHAKE.

Add Color and SHAKE-SHAKE-SHAKE.

I do 5 pounds of projectiles at a time, I let DRY OVERNIGHT.

I Mix by SWIRLING in a plastic bowl, you will really hear the

sound change and the mixture becomes sluggish as the Acetone evaporates.

REMEMBER, YOU ARE "STAINING THEM" rather than coating them.

The first coat you should BARELY SEE ANY COLOR ON THEM.

You DO NOT NEED COATING IN THE LUBE GROOVES.

IF you see ANY PUDDLING IN THE BOWL, you have used WAY TOO MUCH COATING.

Do the ACETONE "Wipe Test" and the "Smash Test" on a bullet with each coat.

IF, the FAIL ANY TEST AT ANY COATING, you might be done with those (REMELT/RECAST).

[TES]

So...I just smashed some commercially made bullets and it flaked off like glitter in my fingers.....

[kbstenberg]

I got another question. I'm not kidding. Its been below zero for 3 weeks. I will be coating and baking in my unheated well shed. Should I run an electric heater in the shed for an hour till the acetone evaporates. Will the HT cure when it is exposed to very cold temperatures? Or if I take the bullets into the house to cure will they still let of gasses that could smell or cause a health hazard. Kevin

[Love Life]

The HT cures fine in cold temps. Ensure it is dry. Put your coated boolits to be baked on the baking tray. Stick the baking tray on top of the oven while it pre-heats. Easy peasy.

Best to do your coating in the shed. 2 coats work just fine for all the pistol stuff I have done so far, up to full snort 10mm.

No need to put the mixture in a tumbler. For the red I mix 5-1-9. Shake the bejesus out of your mixture, uncap and pour on boolits immediately, dump bullets, rinse and repeat.

My $30 wally world special (with warranty) is still rocking and rolling after several thousand boolits coated and baked.

It's a truly simple process. Don't overthink it. If you screw up the 1st batch, no big deal. I think we have all screwed up the 1st batch. Oh, and use a digital timer. Makes life much easier.

[Liberty'sSon]

Tes, I tried coating some commercially cast, unlubed bullets. Apparently they had been sized because when I coated them the Hi Tek flakes on smashing. Apparently sizing before coating smothes the surface of the alloy which doesn't allow the coating to stick. Not saying that is what caused the problem with the commercially cast you used, just that it is a possibility.

[TES]

Tes, I tried coating some commercially cast, unlubed bullets. Apparently they had been sized because when I coated them the Hi Tek flakes on smashing. Apparently sizing before coating smothes the surface of the alloy which doesn't allow the coating to stick. Not saying that is what caused the problem with the commercially cast you used, just that it is a possibility.


No......these were commercially cast hi tek bullets. As in somebody we all know here saying these are a great product....it isn't. I have PC bullets made at the same time I received these Hi tek bullets and they dont flake or scratch off..
It does not matter if I bake them for five minutes or twenty.
It does not matter what alloy I use.
It does not matter what temp I use or time.

They might pass the acetone test and or smash test but they all scrape off with a finger nail....even the commercially cast bullets.

If you think your bullets past the standard for a bullet manufacturer then please send me a sample of your work so I can test it.

Because if the one man selling it to you can't make it work then you can't either.

Here's my address...
MFANDM
p.o. box #965
Manhattan, MT 59741

Feel free to send 25 ish bullets so I can find someone that knows what they are doing.

If you don't want to mail them then stuff your opinions.

I am throwing down the challenge...prove me wrong.

[Ausglock]

Some commercial casters/coaters try and get by with one heavy coat to save time.
It doesn't work eh?

Below Zero type weather is not very common in OZ.

The moisture that gets trapped under the first coat needs to evaporate prior to baking. A hair dryer that warms the coated bullets to just above body temp (feel the temp with your hand) is all that is needed before baking.

Just came down from the shed for lunch. I have 3000 230gr RN 45's and 2000 200gr RN 44's cast this morning.

Going to change molds and do a few 1000 230gr FP 45's this arvo.

[TES]

Hey Donnie; Ausglock is saying you only coat once and to get all projectiles to near nipple temperatures and to feel them "by hand" for super shoot ability. (sex sells) Now I'm sold! Hey aus send me some of yours....

[Ausglock]

Hey aus send me some of yours....

Buggeroff. It's too expensive.
I said Some commercial casters.. Here in OZ.
The USA? No idea.

I really really think your alloy is too soft. My 9mm etc are 15BHN. my 45 are 10 to 12 BHN.
Soft lead and a bit of tin will only be around the 6 to 8BHN. IMHO... far too soft for 9mm, 40 etc etc.

[TES]

OK... I'll bite ....I currently have 22 bhn coated and its leading.... care to take another guess?

"I said Some commercial casters.. Here in OZ.
The USA? No idea." No you didn't! You said....

"Some commercial casters/coaters try and get by with one heavy coat to save time.
It doesn't work eh?"

I'll pay shipping on a smfrb. Cumon man send us some of your samples. Man up!


http://youtu.be/npjOSLCR2hE

[Ausglock]

********. you send me some of yours.
22 BHN is a tad too hard eh?

[TES]

I've tried a lot of things...lead was one of them.....cummon pappagallo.....send me some bullets..I'm buying....whats to loose? Except your reputation...right!

[Love Life]

WTH is going on here? The boolits I got from bayou passed the smash and acetone test, and the coating could not be scraped off. The bullets I have twice coated and baked in my $30 oven pass the smash and swipe test. You have to have a hard fingernail to scratch the coating off of mine. I know I can't scratch it off. I use a random hodgepodge of alloy that scratches easily with a fingernail (naked alloy, not coated). I get no leading and have no issues.

If you get flaking on the smash test, and you can scratch it off, then the coater/boolit caster messed up somewhere.

I'll send you some of my bullets if you'll send me some of the bullets you received from a manufacturer. I'll need to know who the manufacturer is so that I can cross check with him/her to ensure that they really are their product, and that they have not be altered in any way.

Additionally I will take pictures of bullets I will be sending. The pictures will show the coated bullets, a bullet getting acetone poured on it, and a bullet I have smashed. I will send a sample to another member I know so they can also test them and weigh in. I know my bullets pass all tests and work. I have nothing to fear. If your tests show otherwise, then we will know you test is a sham.

[Ausglock]

TES.

I was just talking to HI-TEK Joe.
He is of the same opinion as I.

Your process is not correct somewhere.
Go back to the basics and check your steps.
Who did you buy the coating from?
Why not ask them rather than spitting the dummy on here and ****caning the coating?
There are 100 of users currently coating their bullets with no issues. Why are you having problems?

Make a video of your process and post it. do one of your bullets flaking.
I have nothing to hide with my casting/coating. But I do not see the point of sending my bullets 1/2 way around the world to prove the point.

So far I have heard of coating failures in the US due to:
trying to bake too many at one time.
baking too soon after coating.
coating too thick.
Not mixing the 3 components correctly.
Use of incorrect "Acetone" substitute.
wrong oven temp.
not baking long enough or baking too long.
Ambient temp too low.
Humidity too high.

I had failures to start with. I learnt from me errors and now have it down pat.
I am now mixing different coloured coatings to get Custom colours ( Red with gold solids give Orange. Blue/green with Gold solids gives a light green).

So, go back to the basics and try it again with a known alloy that works with conventional lube and use this alloy to coat. follow the steps.. step by step. no shortcuts.
Merry Christmas.

P.S. I love Monty Python.

[HI-TEK]

TES.

I was just talking to HI-TEK Joe.
He is of the same opinion as I.

Your process is not correct somewhere.
Go back to the basics and check your steps.
Who did you buy the coating from?
Why not ask them rather than spitting the dummy on here and ****caning the coating?
There are 100 of users currently coating their bullets with no issues. Why are you having problems?

Make a video of your process and post it. do one of your bullets flaking.
I have nothing to hide with my casting/coating. But I do not see the point of sending my bullets 1/2 way around the world to prove the point.

So far I have heard of coating failures in the US due to:
trying to bake too many at one time.
baking too soon after coating.
coating too thick.
Not mixing the 3 components correctly.
Use of incorrect "Acetone" substitute.
wrong oven temp.
not baking long enough or baking too long.
Ambient temp too low.
Humidity too high.

I had failures to start with. I learnt from me errors and now have it down pat.
I am now mixing different coloured coatings to get Custom colours ( Red with gold solids give Orange. Blue/green with Gold solids gives a light green).

So, go back to the basics and try it again with a known alloy that works with conventional lube and use this alloy to coat. follow the steps.. step by step. no shortcuts.
Merry Christmas.

P.S. I love Monty Python.


Ausglock,
Thanks for your posting.
Just a quick comment, you indicated 100 people using the coating without problems.
Figures are nearer to many tens of thousands using the coatings successfully.
I am aware, that in specific areas in the US, the weather has been awful, and sub zero for days and weeks on end.
We had never experienced such conditions here is Aus.
It is difficult to imagine how people cope with such weather, and also, we never envisaged use of coatings in such conditions.
It is most difficult with coming up with the right answers with such conditions, when we had never experienced nor have had users previously trying to coat in such conditions.
I am not surprised, about people using powder coating and having some success.
The difference is having to evaporate solvent from the HI-TEK coatings, versus no solvents in powder coatings.
Solvents, especially similar to Acetone, do not dry well in cold conditions and absorb a lot of water, and chill projectiles further.
The absorbed water then can freeze, and coatings can seem dry, but in fact has much trapped solvents/moisture below a hard surface.
The instant it is placed inside an oven, this trapped vapour, becomes super heated steam, which prevents proper bonding of coatings.
I have been contacted by others in similar situations, and had hopefully solved some of the problems.
However, I cant advise about the weather and other problems resulting.
I am glad that we live in a more warmer climate and do not have to put up with such situations.

[Moonman]

Gentlemen,

I believe we possibly have here a WANNABE AMMUNITION MANUFACTURER.

He possibly has been out in the cold in THE BIG SKY COUNTRY too long.

Some people (TES) you JUST CANNOT HELP, be done with him.:takinWiz:

Let him try to sell his Powder Coated Ammunition, OR ANY ammunition.

I really don't think the Hi-Tec process is suited to his demeanor.

He wants to be CONFRONTATIONAL continuously, and doesn't take direction well at all.[smilie=b:

That expression of attitude here in the US on FORUMS by individuals is looked upon

as a POSSIBLE TROLL, wanting to continue to be at the center of controversy and contention.

IF he ever has a business, his LONG TERM success would be DOUBTFUL.

The EFFORTS required to be successful do not fit his INSTANT GRATIFICATION DEMANDS.

My personal use of HI-TEK "GOLD" has WORKED FOR ME, on 45ACP and 38 Special

with lighter TARGET LOADS and softer lead, all indoors (my needs) currently.:Fire:

NO LEADING, Low SMOKE even with BULLSEYE powder.[smilie=w:[smilie=w:

WORKS FOR ME MATES!:grin:

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

TES,
Sorry to hear you are having problems.
Pm me your phone number here, it seems I am having e-mail provider issues. I will call the day after Christmas or whatever day is best for you and we'll see if we can get this sorted out.
Then after further testing we can report it back here. Is it possible you got some bad product from me? Sure I am only human and I make mistakes, but I stand behind what I sell 100% and will refund/replace at your option if we can't get this to work.
Donnie

[kweidner]

I just don't get it. If i had fingernails made from diamonds the coating might scrape off. I have been using this product since Februaryish. At first I too had issues to work out. Stay the course but don't slam a product many use and have had incredible success with. The curing time and temp is critical. The drying time is too. I just ran 100 .380 out of my tcp 2 days ago and no lead at all. Grouping less than 2 inches at 15yds. I use coww with 2% tin for .380 and .45 acp. These lower pressure rounds get black but I use gold for everything else. I coat 3x. is it possible you have too much alloy in your oven? Use a infrared thermometer and check the boolit temp itself. Air temp and alloy temp are entirely different. I like many here coat in 5# batches.

[sierra1911]

TES, do your bullets work if you coat them with Lee Liquid Alox or Recluse's 45/45/10? If so, the problem is probably your HiTek coating; if not it's probably your bullets. Might narrow down the problem if you try a few rounds with just ALOX.

[Love Life]

The gauntlet has been thrown TES. It's up to you to pick it up.

[Ausglock]

Well. It is Christmas day here in the land of OZ.
I would like to wish all you caster/coaters the best for the season.

Keep casting....

[Moonman]

Merry Xmas to All.

Keep Casting and Coating Folks.

[Gremlin460]

Everyone have a great day, no matter where you are or what your doing, take time to smell the Roses and enjoy yourself.
Thanks to Trev and Joe for their patience and assistance, thanks to many other for hints and tips, and for the support to keep trying when things went awry.

[zomby woof]

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!
Got me a Breville 800. Now to wait for it to warm up. 5 degrees F right now.

[Love Life]

Merry Christmas all. My wife and I are headed to shoot what Santa brought here. 120 Wadcutters coated twice with HT red copper. Clean, accurate, and fun.

Still hearing crickets.....

[TES]

OK...it is Christmas so I have not been doing anything on the computer for a day or so.

I last had a conversation with Swamprat and he did send me some of his bullets. My concerns were the arid and very cold climate here and that it does strange things to plastics and polymers that don't happen anywhere else.

Now...my intentions are not to discount anyone's successes with this product. It must work for some or else it would have been quickly discounted as a fraud.

However..yes Donnie's bullets are flaking like glitter with the smash test. I have had them since ??feb?? of this year. They did not fail when I first got them. whic is why i bought the product from him. This leads me to believe that with time and our climate they will not work here. I have literally coated about 20,000 projectiles that pass acetone and smash when made and only after 3 months of sitting in my boxes in my shop I am getting a failure of the coating.

Maybe I have hard fingernails....it's possible mine are harder than most.
Maybe my FCD is made by lee
Maybe it could be a lot of things.

Let me tell you what I am...

I'm frustrated beyond belief that this simple coating seems to work for a month or two HERE.
I am frustrated that no matter who's bullets I use they will or will probably lead my barrels.
I have used traditional lead cast and lubed in my g19 that have leaded less.
I have tried everything from soft to ridiculously hard lead all with multiple variations (5-1-5, 5-1-6, 5-1-7)of the coating (yes scientifically with from 5 to 20 min bakes @ 360 - 420) only to get another verdict on why it failed for yet another reason.

I do want to apologize for making my frustrations know here on this forum.
I do not feel like it was the best way to voice my frustrations... but I am now looking at restructuring my entire production line because I was not able to make this work for me here.

Out of the .."god only knows" thousands of rounds that I have made with cast, plated and FMJ bullets I have never heard so many "why this didn't work" scenarios.

I'm done with this..for me it is just simply way to much of a question mark in my mind for a start up ammo company.

The biggest one being out of all of the advice here (there are pages of it) why are none of these trouble shooting answers or advice listed on the product sheet. Why isn't the LFCD mentioned as a possible failure point before the point of purchase?

Love life..if you want to send me some...my address is still posted...I did not say "do not send these without an invitation."
Anyone else that would like to send some bullets for Cold/Dry weather testing lets do it. I would love to see if it is just "Here" that is the problem. Maybe it is something simple..maybe not.

To date everything that I have made or has been sent to me that has sat in this climate for more than 3 months is failing. ( no I never let the coating in the bottle freeze just the bullets)

You see I was doubting myself for weeks pulling my hair out....then I remembered that I had about 15 or so BB left in a drawer. Well then I got mad and I probably should not have. But then again maybe I have every right to be mad. This is requiring a total rethink on every decision that I have made to date.


end crickets.

Sorry...Donnie I think you are 1000% a stand up guy. I don't doubt you at all. I just wish that it was a simple coating for me. If there is a way to figure this out...I do not think it is going to be easy. If you are willing....lets put it through the paces.....hopefully before I smelt everything and have to sell it.

[Love Life]

Odd. My bullets have been coated with red copper for a couple months and sit out in my unheated garage. The temps have been swinging in the low teens to the below zero teens at night, to 40 degrees plus during the day. I live in a dry climate.

My color and catalyst have been sitting in my garage since mid summer when the temps were high, and are now enjoying winter in the Sierra Nevadas.

My bullets still coat fine, bake fine, and performance/durability of the coating has not degraded one iota.

I live at 5,000 ft elevation, and where I wander looking for the elusive flake usually hovers at 6,000 to 7,000 ft elevation. No lead issues, no failure, just magic. I don't know what to tell you on your coating.

[HI-TEK]

OK...it is Christmas so I have not been doing anything on the computer for a day or so.

I last had a conversation with Swamprat and he did send me some of his bullets. My concerns were the arid and very cold climate here and that it does strange things to plastics and polymers that don't happen anywhere else.

Now...my intentions are not to discount anyone's successes with this product. It must work for some or else it would have been quickly discounted as a fraud.

However..yes Donnie's bullets are flaking like glitter with the smash test. I have had them since ??feb?? of this year. They did not fail when I first got them. whic is why i bought the product from him. This leads me to believe that with time and our climate they will not work here. I have literally coated about 20,000 projectiles that pass acetone and smash when made and only after 3 months of sitting in my boxes in my shop I am getting a failure of the coating.

Maybe I have hard fingernails....it's possible mine are harder than most.
Maybe my FCD is made by lee
Maybe it could be a lot of things.

Let me tell you what I am...

I'm frustrated beyond belief that this simple coating seems to work for a month or two HERE.
I am frustrated that no matter who's bullets I use they will or will probably lead my barrels.
I have used traditional lead cast and lubed in my g19 that have leaded less.
I have tried everything from soft to ridiculously hard lead all with multiple variations (5-1-5, 5-1-6, 5-1-7)of the coating (yes scientifically with from 5 to 20 min bakes @ 360 - 420) only to get another verdict on why it failed for yet another reason.

I do want to apologize for making my frustrations know here on this forum.
I do not feel like it was the best way to voice my frustrations... but I am now looking at restructuring my entire production line because I was not able to make this work for me here.

Out of the .."god only knows" thousands of rounds that I have made with cast, plated and FMJ bullets I have never heard so many "why this didn't work" scenarios.

I'm done with this..for me it is just simply way to much of a question mark in my mind for a start up ammo company.

The biggest one being out of all of the advice here (there are pages of it) why are none of these trouble shooting answers or advice listed on the product sheet. Why isn't the LFCD mentioned as a possible failure point before the point of purchase?

Love life..if you want to send me some...my address is still posted...I did not say "do not send these without an invitation."
Anyone else that would like to send some bullets for Cold/Dry weather testing lets do it. I would love to see if it is just "Here" that is the problem. Maybe it is something simple..maybe not.

To date everything that I have made or has been sent to me that has sat in this climate for more than 3 months is failing. ( no I never let the coating in the bottle freeze just the bullets)

You see I was doubting myself for weeks pulling my hair out....then I remembered that I had about 15 or so BB left in a drawer. Well then I got mad and I probably should not have. But then again maybe I have every right to be mad. This is requiring a total rethink on every decision that I have made to date.


end crickets.

Sorry...Donnie I think you are 1000% a stand up guy. I don't doubt you at all. I just wish that it was a simple coating for me. If there is a way to figure this out...I do not think it is going to be easy. If you are willing....lets put it through the paces.....hopefully before I smelt everything and have to sell it.

Tes,
Thanks for your blog.
I Am sorry that you had so many apparent failures, and hope that the Christmas spirit had eased your frustration.

Apology for my late contributions, but we are also very busy this time of year with family matters, and our annual shutdown and trying to get out orders.

I am also surprised, that some of theses matters were not shared with Donnie & I, to try and identify why things are going wrong.
Until your posts, I was unaware of any problems.

I have taken note of a few things over the last 12 months or so.
1. The cured coating on alloy, was in fact frozen down to minus 49C and allowed to come to room temperatures, and smash tested fine.
2. As noted by quite a few users, the control of baking conditions needs to be well controlled and is specific with equipment being used.

To quote your own figures
"(yes scientifically with from 5 to 20 min bakes @ 360 - 420) only to get another verdict on why it failed for yet another reason."

It seems to me, that the cooking times quoted at specific temperatures, may be one key factor why there may be a problem.

(The other variable, which will cause similar failures, is not allowing or achieving correct drying of first coat.) This scenario can occur with cold and damp conditions and with incorrectly stored Acetone, which has absorbed a lot of water.

Initially, addressing non drying issues, at cold conditions, the Acetone used, evaporates and also chills alloy during drying.
(Acetone can absorb a lot of water from the air, especially if air is humid.)

The absorbed moisture/solvent, is then trapped in small amounts in coating film, and despite appearing dry, and ready to cook, there can be an unseen problem.

The minute you place such coating into the oven, the moisture/solvent trapped, becomes super heated steam, which prevents correct bonding to alloy.

This is one cause of such results you are describing.
To cure this type of problem, the (thinly) coated projectiles need more drying and possibly in warmed conditions. Some use waste heat from ovens to warm first coat, which is the "key" bonding coat.

If you are cooking for 20 minutes at 360F is fairly close to requirements.
However, I do not know if you are measuring air temperatures or projectiles temperatures?
This area is very critical.

a. If at 360F the air temperature is what you are measuring, at the 20 minute mark, (depending on metal loading and air circulation) product may not be curing, as the coating is a good insulator of heat, the alloy may not be up to temperature for correct cure and correct adhesion to the alloy.

The typical symptoms are, that the coating comes off alloy in shreds as the coating is simply dried without fuse bonding to alloy.
(In a rough comparison, it is like dissolving sugar into water, and then, drying off the water, which leaves dry crumbly sugar on surface. However, when this dry crumbly sugar is heated to fuse point, it melts and is sticky, and strongly bonds to surfaces)

Both alloy and coating needs to be at set temperature until correct core/bonding is achieved.

Depending on your equipment, these details are variable, and that is why each user is required to determine best conditions for their manufacture for the type of equipment being used.

b. Coatings are generally cured at 380-390F for between 10-12 minutes, (depending on colour) with ideal air circulation and metal loading, where air is evenly circulated around every projectile.

The recommended cooking details are, that at minimum of 180C (356F) (again,depending on metal loading), and air circulation in oven, the cooking time can vary from 15-20 minutes, and possibly more.

From your above quoted details, it seems that the cooking times were either at too high a temperatures and for too long, or, you were not measuring the projectiles temperatures, but instead the air temperatures, which then would provide a false result.

There is also a possibility of inadequate drying before cooking.

I have no details of your coating drying conditions so I cannot make further suggestions.

So at this stage, and until I get more step by step details of your process, I can only generalize, as above, with some details of what is appearing to be happening.
I am very happy to assist with these matters, and have communicated with Donnie with trying to establish and cure problematic areas.
Looking forward to your reply.

[Gateway Bullets]

Tes,

I coated all summer long with no problems with my coating (black, red copper, gold). The temps dropped to 5-20f and my problems started. I had the same problems that you state. The biggest problem that I had was bad acetone and failure of drying method.

Listen to Joe and he can help with 98% of your problems. I started keeping a log of what I was doing just to make sure I wasn't screwing up!

If you got your coating from Donnie, give him a call and he is more than willing to help you anyway he can.

I know it can be VERY frustrating when the coating fails the tests. Just walk away for a little bit and rethink what you're doing. Start from scratch and you will find out your problem.

[TES]

My shop is and has been heated for the duration of the recent testing.

I have mildly heat cured (100 deg) the coating/core over a dry heat with fan source before placing in an oven.

The oven has two separate internal therms for consistency. It also has been lined with fire stone/brick to help with consistency.

I have baked them only long enough to have them pass the acetone test and then the smash test. There has been adequate cooling between coats and adequate pre heat curing before baking.

As I have stated it is very dry here...just bending your fingers can make your skin crack....I'm not kidding about this one. So I doubt that moisture is a problem.

Gateway...I have started from square one about 5 times now. Each time inching my way up to a passing test and when I get to loading and shooting I get a little ear burn.

I have also shot and tested others bullets with the same result...so I know that it is not just me. How ever I will say that Donnies bullets wont scratch as easily but the smash test makes them flake worse than mine.

I'll take a vid in the morning and post it here...start to finish for any doubters.

TES

[Ausglock]

So... when you fire them, where in the bore is the leading?
At the start of the barrel?
Only at the muzzle end?
or all the way along the bore?

[HI-TEK]

My shop is and has been heated for the duration of the recent testing.

I have mildly heat cured (100 deg) the coating/core over a dry heat with fan source before placing in an oven.

The oven has two separate internal therms for consistency. It also has been lined with fire stone/brick to help with consistency.

I have baked them only long enough to have them pass the acetone test and then the smash test. There has been adequate cooling between coats and adequate pre heat curing before baking.

As I have stated it is very dry here...just bending your fingers can make your skin crack....I'm not kidding about this one. So I doubt that moisture is a problem.

Gateway...I have started from square one about 5 times now. Each time inching my way up to a passing test and when I get to loading and shooting I get a little ear burn.

I have also shot and tested others bullets with the same result...so I know that it is not just me. How ever I will say that Donnies bullets wont scratch as easily but the smash test makes them flake worse than mine.

I'll take a vid in the morning and post it here...start to finish for any doubters.

TES

Most interesting comments.
I am really puzzled.
As the coatings are baked at 370-392F, they are dry, and no moisture at all will remain under those conditions.
I do not understand your comments that it is inferred, that the dry conditions at where you are located has any thing to do with the coating failing.

When referring to moisture as being a problem, it is not the moisture in the air that is being referred to as being the problem.
What was advised, is, that when Acetone evaporates, and which is rapid, during that process, there is a cooling effect taking place on surfaces of projectiles.
That cooling accompanied by Acetones ability to absorb moisture, is what is referred to as may be the start of the problem.
Due to rapid drying of coatings, the surfaces form a hard skin when drying.
Thickness of the skin, will depend on how much coating is applied.
With combination of rapid drying and skin formation, accompanied by moisture absorption at same time, the moisture becomes trapped below surfaces of the dry skin formed on the coating.
As the coating feels dry, when placed into the oven, any trapped moisture is then immediately affected with extreme heat, twice that of temperatures required to boil water.
This sudden heat exposure to trapped moisture, is what was being referred to, that may be the start of the problem especially with the first coat.
The trapped moisture in the coating, (especially if applied too thickly in the first instance) becomes the super heated steam which affects adhesion of the coatings.
As coatings are baked at 370-390F, (which is required to correctly set and cure the coatings), any steam that is released, will try and get away from surfaces between coating and cooler alloy, and may be preventing proper adhesion.
What I was trying to address is, that due to your area being a totally arid and dry climate, seems the only difference between what is happening elsewhere.
Aside from that there should be no other associated problems arising simply by the fact that coatings, once baked at 370-390F are then totally dry due to conditions of bake.
Transporting such coated alloy, to a dry or arid condition, should not change properties of the coatings, as they are already totally dehydrated and if coated correctly, should be fully bonded to alloy.
Your particular Comments/problems require further investigation, as to why things are appearing to go wrong with your and others products after delivery to you.
I believe that Donnie has made contact with you and had started investigations jointly with you to try to get to the bottom of suggested failures..

[Ausglock]

I still say that TES is doing something wrong.

Just look at the locations of where the commercial caster/coaters are located on OZ.
You have 1 in WA (hot dry)
1 in SA (Very hot very dry)
1 in Vic ( very changable conditions)
2 in Sydney (changable as well)
1 in Newcastle ( from very hot dry to very cold wet)
1 in Northern NSW ( hot and humid to cold and wet)
2 in QLD ( hot and humid)
1 in NT ( extremely hot and humid to extremely hot and dry)
These are the ones I know of that have been coating for over 20 years and don't have the problems TES is having.

I cast 5000 45 pills yesterday. Going to cast a few 1000 9mm today and tomorrow and coat next week. I love holidays..

[Gateway Bullets]

Holidays.....Bah Humbug! Lol

[TES]

ok here we go....


http://youtu.be/Z7HGHyXys0U

So BB are done there and shipped here (1st bullet smashed)

Mine are made here (2nd bullet smashed)

What did BB do wrong with his process? Not me...just Donnie's.

[Ausglock]

Beats the schit out of me...
I went and got a few bullets I coated back in August. Smashed them and they are fine. They were Green, Gold and Red copper.

I can not scratch any coating Like you can with a finger nail. I have to use the leatherman knife blade to get that type of scratch.

My casting setup
91681

91682

91683

91684

my casting style video link.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/th_122713174018.jpg (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/122713174018.mp4)

[220]

Coated my first boolits today, started off with blue/green 5 1 7.
Given it was my first attempt I measured the amount I was adding to the boolits, 7ml per 2.5kg.
Baked in the breville smart oven at 190c for 10min. The trays I have made are quite small, each tray holds 1.25kg comfortably. Baked them one tray at a time and they passed the smash and wipe tests.
Tried some red/copper same ratio, application rate and bake time and they failed the wipe test, increased the bake time to 12min and they passed the wipe test.
Started baking 2 trays of the blue/green at the same time and had the same trouble, getting some wipe off, increased the time to 12 min and they all passed.

Ended up using 3 coats of blue/green and 4 of the red/copper, I might be going a bit light on the coats with the blue/green and a Lee 158TL swc I wasn't getting total coverage until the 3rd coat, with the red/copper even after 4 coats I still don't have HiTek in all the lube grooves and the colour was golden until the 3rd coat.

Now to load them up and see what they do, don't expect any trouble with the 105 & 158 swc, have loads that put 10 shots under 2" at 25m in my revolver using LLA and will go 500+ rounds without any loss in accuracy, can't see why the HiTek wont shoot at least as well.
Looking forward to trying the 180gr 38 Noe I coated with the red/copper will use them in my marlin for hunting and silhouette.
Haven't had time to develop a load yet for the marlin, have been using j word even for silhouette, rifle will shoot 1.5moa with j word loads it likes so we will see what it will do with cast and HiTek.
Son is keen to shoot more lever action silhouette so a cast that shoots well will let us shoot more, not that he needs the practice, kicked my butt at the state tittles a few weeks ago and was top junior but I could do with some practice

[Ausglock]

220. take your temp up to 200deg C.
My trays hold about 250 9mm bullets. I use 7mls for this many and bake 1 tray at a time for 10 minutes.
green, red/copper/ gold. thay all work for 10 minutes. only the reds need 12 minutes.

Be aware that 2 trays at once may not get the alloy hot enough to cure the coating to to bullets.

[Moonman]

220,

I don't believe it's necessary to have the coatings INTO ALL THE LUBE GROOVES.

The surface that touches the barrel is what counts. (not like conventional lubes that comes out of the grooves).

Some are using molds with NO LUBE GROOVES.

If you're taking 3 to 4 times to coat, you're COATING TOO LIGHTLY.

Especially using the Lee Tumble Lube 38 bullets that are being coated.

[Moonman]

TES,

Looks like there is a Smash test,

AND THEN THERE IS "SMASH" test.

I just give a GOOD SQUEEZE in the bench vise to smash.

BAKING Temp is effected by ALTITUDE, what is the elevation of your city?

Have you tried the suggested ALOX TUMBLE LUBING of YOUR bullets

and YOUR FIREARMS to see YOUR LEADING CONDITION THERE?

[prickett]

my casting style video link.


Trev,
Nice setup/process you have going there!

It looks like you have two furnaces? Are you dumping from the top one into the lower one at 2:00? Are you dumping your sprues into the top one?

You should demand a commission from Lee! I'm thinking I need a second pot and set of molds.

[TES]

TES,

Looks like there is a Smash test,

AND THEN THERE IS "SMASH" test.

I just give a GOOD SQUEEZE in the bench vise to smash.

BAKING Temp is effected by ALTITUDE, what is the elevation of your city?

Have you tried the suggested ALOX TUMBLE LUBING of YOUR bullets

and YOUR FIREARMS to see YOUR LEADING CONDITION THERE?

I have smashed these to the size of a quarter in the past (right after getting them) and no flaking. Now they flake.

I have accounted for altitude by trying many different bake times and temps.
Even so BB were made by BB and they failed. The first hammer strike generally sends flakes flying.

[Love Life]

Cut your fingernails!!

[TES]

LMAO....that's funny right there.

[Love Life]

Couldn't help myself.

I whack my bullets with an 8 lb sledge hammer. It squishes them real nice like with one blow. I wonder if your repeated whacking may have skewed your results?

Regardless, the coating should not scrape off with a fingernail.

[jmort]

Well at least you could easily clean off the coating and ES PC them.

[TES]

Well at least you could easily clean off the coating and ES PC them.

You have to much faith in my fingernail sir!

[Gateway Bullets]

Tes,

I can understand your frustration. I coated all summer and fall without a single problem. Once winter hit the coated started to fail. It wasnt the coating, it was water in my acetone causing poor curing and was not the fault of Hi-Tec.

I know you're pulling your hair out over this stuff. But it is better to talk to BB and HT before bringing it to a blog. Just a courtesy thing.

[220]

2.5kg per bake equals 250 158gr, 370 105gr, 210 180gr so I may be a little a little light on the coating but not by much.
Thought it would be better to go to light than heavy to start with.
With one tray (1.25kg) I could see colour change after 3min baking, oven temp must be very even as those on the outside would change first and it would take about 30sec for the entire tray to change. Baking 2 trays it was taking about a minute longer before I saw a change in colour hence why I increased the time instead of temp. The smart oven is great, set the desired temp and time and it beeps when the temp is reached, I put the boolits in at this point, it then beeps again and shuts of after the selected time, I pull them out at the beep. You can see the 5 elements almost pulsing during the bake time to keep the temp constant, coming on to a dull glow before switching off again.
Once the oven has reached the set temp they don't come fully on unless you leave the door open and get a big temp drop.
Only trouble with it is it sat on the kitchen bench for 2 weeks before it went into the shed for baking boolits and now the wife and kids want one fore the kitchen. lol
Realise coating in the grooves isn't needed but one of the attractions with HiTek for me was pretty boolits.
With the wipe test I have been rubbing the base of a boolit with a rag damp with acetone about 40 times, one tray at a time or 12min is giving zero colour on the rag, those that failed were giving me some colour and I could see the coating getting thinner on the boolits, not wiping off completely but a noticeable thinning.

Still happy with the results for my first attempt



http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2013-12/4c687b65.jpg

158FP 180NOE HP 3 coats red/copper 105swc 2 coats blue/green 105 158 3 coats blue/green

[prickett]

Tes,

I can understand your frustration. I coated all summer and fall without a single problem. Once winter hit the coated started to fail. It wasnt the coating, it was water in my acetone causing poor curing and was not the fault of Hi-Tec.

I know you're pulling your hair out over this stuff. But it is better to talk to BB and HT before bringing it to a blog. Just a courtesy thing.

Gateway, can you elaborate on the water/acetone bit? Are there best practices to follow to avoid/prevent this? How do you know for certain this is a problem (versus something else being the cause)?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks

[Love Life]

Just let your bullets dry fully. Don't rush it. Mine usually dry overnight, or at the minimum an hour.

Once you get the cycle going you can coat many bullets very fast-ish.

[Gateway Bullets]

I had purchased another brand of acetone and the coating went to ****! Bugged the powers to be and that's what we came up with. Switched back to my original brand and problem solved.

When I baked the projectiles you could see a whitish almost oxidized look. It was pinholes in the coating. I had also spilt some on the top of the can and it left a white powder behind. HT had said the moisture most likely turned the alk or acidic (don't remember) and caused the residue.

[Love Life]

I use the walmart acetone. It's in a blue and yellow can.

[HI-TEK]

I had purchased another brand of acetone and the coating went to ****! Bugged the powers to be and that's what we came up with. Switched back to my original brand and problem solved.

When I baked the projectiles you could see a whitish almost oxidized look. It was pinholes in the coating. I had also spilt some on the top of the can and it left a white powder behind. HT had said the moisture most likely turned the alk or acidic (don't remember) and caused the residue.

Gateway,
Thanks for input.
Pinholing, and or miniature craters during and after cure is typically symptoms of following
1. In adequate Drying
2. Coating applied too thickly.
3. Solvent has not been stored correctly allowing absorption of moisture, ( or wrong solvent).
4. Or... all three above combined

That is one reason, why it is recommended, that application of especially the first coatings(Key Coat) is done very sparingly and thin.
Allowed to thoroughly dry before cooking.
Once baked and tested for adhesion, only then, apply subsequent coats.
IMPORTANT NOTES
Applying second or multiple coats will not repair or fix problems with failure of adhesion with first coat.
Such activity to try and "fix" the problem by reheating multiple coating on top of a failed first coat is totally useless.
Also reheating, or increased heating with original coat, will not fix initial poor adhesion problems, as once coating has "set", there is no remedial fix for adhesion, aside from re-melting.

Once coating has been subjected to temperatures of around 350F or onward, this heat will "set" the coating and extra heat will not fix adhesion problems, as coating after such heating, becomes infusible and will not be reactivated to get it to stick to surfaces.
Hope suggestions help..

FOOT NOTE
With moisture pick up of Acetone, and coating moisture entrapment, does not harm the coating.
All it does is slow down process of drying.
It is simply a case of , do not rush drying.
It is very difficult to dry things in cold wet conditions, and users must take into consideration conditions when coating and drying, to ensure that all is well before cooking.
My suggestion is before doing large scale cooks, just cook a few first, and ascertain if coatings are sticking to alloy with first coat .
If all is OK with smash & wipe tests, then continue too cook the rest.

[TES]

ok I'm gonna try a longer dry time. We will see.

[Ausglock]

220... Mate. looks great.
Now load them up and have some fun...

Prickett.
yes. refilling the bottom from the top.

I load ingots into the top pot and use it to re-fill the bottom working pot.
The sprues go into the working pot as they are still hot.
With running 3, 6 cav molds, it doesn't take long to run up 1000 bullets. I tried it with 2 molds, but they would overheat.
I run 370 to 380 deg C ( about 700 Deg F) for 2,6,92 alloy. this gives good fillout.

The filled molds rest on a piece of steel to cool. this acts like a heat sink.

I pre-heat my molds on a small hotplate, so the first bullets out of the molds are keepers.

Please Mr. Magma Engineering. Please send me a Mark 8 Auto caster....please???????

TES.
I smash 2 ways.
I smash one top down to about 4mm thick with multiple blows from a claw hammer and then lay one on its side and do the same thing.

No flaking.

[Gateway Bullets]

ok I'm gonna try a longer dry time. We will see.

Tes,

Actually I lied! You have to shake, coat, and bake your coating while upside down!!!!!! Its the only way you can get that upside down snake oil to work! Lol lol lol

[Ausglock]

Gateway. You are a drongo. :)

[Gremlin460]

Tes one of the main points I have found is to try and get the projectiles up to temp as soon as possible, the whole hinge point of the system is the bond between coating and the lead. Irrespective of the lead BHN.

If we can achieve a strong bond, then smash tests and shooting is no longer a issue.

From my understanding the core needs to achieve 200c to initiate a good bond.
My oven would heat to 201/202 amd cycle the power at that temp, so I thought it all good, however opening the door and sliding in the tray (single tray) of 250 casts and closing the door, would allow the temp (according to the digital read out on the thermocouple) to drop to 140/150c, then a few seconds after closing the door it would slowly start to increase.

As I start the timer after closing the door, it means that some of the time allocated to cure is wasted as the oven climbs back to the recommended cure temp of 200c. Back then my oven was only a single element, still is but we are in the process of fitting 2 additional elements.
Sitting on the patio late one night I had the idea of placing clay paving bricks in the oven. I did this so they act as heat exchangers, cheap and easily available, I stood 8 across the bottom of the oven spaced a few inches apart.

I then fired the oven up and walked away for a hour or so. I coated a batch (a batch to me is 250) and let them dry for a hour in the sun, the sun here is quite fierce at this time of year. So 2 hours after firing up the oven I laid the batch on a tray and shoved them in the oven, closed the door and studied the readout closely.
It had again dropped to 140/150c, however this time the temp recovery was 2-3c per second!! Much, much faster recovery.
Not only was the element reheating the air, but the paver blocks were releasing stored heat as well.

The lead heat absorbsion was well and truly offset by the radiated heat from the blocks.
Also I do a flash rinse of the raw batch in acetone to remove any condensation, finger oil or anything, acetone is cheap and its just a precautionary step.

Now I know that too long in the oven hurts the coating, so there obviously is a minimum and a maximum time frame window we need to aim for. Trevor has also said that he varies the time slightly depending on the size for the cast, which makes sense.
Zinc plating, chrome, copper, PC whatever, all have time frame windows that need to be observed, so this really is no different.

Just make sure you shake the mix in the correct direction, as you know fluid swirls in the opposite direction down here.

[kweidner]

Tes mine had problems like that when my oven cycled to wide. New oven doesn't cycle and alloy steadily climbs. IIRC old oven would swing 35-40*. This one gets there and maintains. Just something to think about. I use an 8lb sledge on concrete and no flaking. I did a bunch of .380 the other day. Perfect.

[gunoil]

whats a drongo, u live on a big island trevor.

[TES]

Tes,

Actually I lied! You have to shake, coat, and bake your coating while upside down!!!!!! Its the only way you can get that upside down snake oil to work! Lol lol lol

Well I am currently trying naked..however if naked and upside down I might end up with a couple of black eyes and mushroom shaped bruises...so I'll skip that one.....

[Gateway Bullets]

Gateway. You are a drongo. :)

Hummmm..... I may suffer from the occasional rectal cranial inversion, but a drongo? Lol

[Moonman]

In OZ a DRONGO = FOOL!

[Gateway Bullets]

In OZ a DRONGO = FOOL!

I know what a drongo is......... But Ausglock is just one of those guys that suffers from monkey mouth and his elevator doesn't stop at the top floor! Lol

[gunoil]

Trev, you ever seen a "yout" pick-up trk? Aussie convertable p/u, about 1935? Prob 100 grand to buy one.

[TES]

I know what a drongo is......... But Ausglock is just one of those guys that suffers from monkey mouth and his elevator doesn't stop at the top floor! Lol

You did mean at the top of the arch...right?

[SpotHound]

What temp are most people using, I set my toasty oven to 210 degrees C, and the thermometer inside reads 400 Fahrenheit.

I bake as long as I have patience maybe 8 minutes?

Results good so far.

[Gateway Bullets]

That is a hoot to go the top of the Arch! Did you know it will sway a couple of feet in a storm? Been there, done that, AND NOT FUN! Very uneasy feeling!

[HI-TEK]

Trev, you ever seen a "yout" pick-up trk? Aussie convertable p/u, about 1935? Prob 100 grand to buy one.

Good luck trying to get a 1935 Ute pick up truck or a convertible.
You have as much chance as flying without wings...lol..lol

I have a 1974 HQ Holden Premier wagon, 5Litre V8, running on LPG with twin Stainless tanks, made into a cradle, and welded in as part of the floor & Chassis. Protective stone shield is welded in as part of the floor.
Engine is fully worked to run on gas, with two stage Gas cam, high compression pistons, Chrome/Moly rings, Stainless Chevy valves with Bronze seats, twin 2 1/2 inch exhaust.
Body fully resprayed inside and outside using GMH Antelope colour.
Crushed Velour seats, electric windows including rear.
Custom 16 inch steel rims.
I just dove it into research area shed, and it has been there for 10 years under lock and key.
One day it will see the light of day. (NOT)
My son inlaw and grandsons have been agitating to get it out of mothballs so they can cruize downtown.
The problem is that it seems a Cop magnet, as when it was running on the streets, my sons were constantly being pulled up for various crazy reasons, such as "we saw a nail in your tire, You seem too young to drive, we need to see if the car is registered, etc etc.
Not to mention that even with high performance mufflers, it sounds like a semi truck.
Ah weel, they can fight over it when I am gone...lol...lol

[Gateway Bullets]

You know how those cops can be! Not that I would know anything about that! Lol

Why don't you post a pic of it? Love the cars! I have a 66-442 that my parents bought new back in the day. Got it when I turned 16 and was my first car.

[HI-TEK]

You know how those cops can be! Not that I would know anything about that! Lol

Why don't you post a pic of it? Love the cars! I have a 66-442 that my parents bought new back in the day. Got it when I turned 16 and was my first car.

Cant take photos, as it is covered up with blankets and stuff so it is not seen at all.
It is a big job trying to get to it as I have stuff all around it and it would take an army to clear all around to expose the old girl.

[TES]

I would imagine it is like standing on a mast in beam seas. Fun but a bit scary.

[Gremlin460]

You publicly admit to owning a HQ?

[Ausglock]

A drongo is a bird. It runs around in circles when startled.
I have just made a few videos of smashing. I will post them soon.

[HI-TEK]

You publicly admit to owning a HQ?

Not just a HQ but a Holden Premier HQ wagon...

[Ausglock]

OK. here are the smashing videos.
smash 1
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/th_2013-12-28_17-15-27_487.jpg (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/2013-12-28_17-15-27_487.mp4)
Smash 2

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/th_2013-12-28_17-17-32_574.jpg (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/2013-12-28_17-17-32_574.mp4)
Smash 3
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/th_2013-12-28_17-28-54_197.jpg (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/2013-12-28_17-28-54_197.mp4)

[Beagle333]

Very convincing videos. Thanks! 8-)

[popper]

http://pac.iupac.org/publications/pac/pdf/1986/pdf/5811x1535.pdf Data indicates it very difficult to remove H2O from acetone, other than evaporation.
All you want or need to know about water & acetone. The acetone evaporates quickly but the water doesn't and it has to pass through the coating to evaporate. One could probably speed up the drying by vacuum drying to remove the water after the acetone is gone. No, I don't have a vacuum pump and bell jar. Anyway, the H2O in the coating and between the coating and lead turns to steam when heated and causes acne on the boolits; poor bond to lead. The thicker the first coat, the poorer the bond to the lead. Can't say for sure but I suspect the bonding between coats is easier to achieve than the bonding between coating and lead. It would also suggest that an acetone wash would need to really dry well before applying the coating. I didn't do that on my first trials and got bad results.

[gunoil]

Lee loadmaster press:


Seating hi-tek 9mm
Subject: no shaving of coated lead bullets when seating in step'ed brass. lssue learned from examining dillon die.
Stations: 9mm
1) old model (never used) RCBS sizer/decapper die, given to me by RCBS. Old'est rat in the barn taught me sompin one day on the phone.
2) lee expander die w/my custom machined inner plug (step instead of bell).
3) lee powder hopper, expander nipple machined off. Drops powder only.
4) dillon seat die, ( no shaving) just seats
5) dillon crimp die


l also use all of the mods from: mikesreloadingbench.com




"I woke up one morning, and all of my stuff had been stolen and replaced by exact duplicates."
steven wright

[Ausglock]

I do not pre-wash my bullets. I just use thin coats for the first and second coats. Like gun oil stated.....it is a stain, not a paint.

[HI-TEK]

http://pac.iupac.org/publications/pac/pdf/1986/pdf/5811x1535.pdf Data indicates it very difficult to remove H2O from acetone, other than evaporation.
All you want or need to know about water & acetone. The acetone evaporates quickly but the water doesn't and it has to pass through the coating to evaporate. One could probably speed up the drying by vacuum drying to remove the water after the acetone is gone. No, I don't have a vacuum pump and bell jar. Anyway, the H2O in the coating and between the coating and lead turns to steam when heated and causes acne on the boolits; poor bond to lead. The thicker the first coat, the poorer the bond to the lead. Can't say for sure but I suspect the bonding between coats is easier to achieve than the bonding between coating and lead. It would also suggest that an acetone wash would need to really dry well before applying the coating. I didn't do that on my first trials and got bad results.

Popper,
Thanks for input. Most accurate information.
Using Acetone for the coatings was because the resin system "liked to dissolve in it".
Also, dries very quickly which is a bonus.
Tests conducted some time ago, we deliberately added water 10% to coating/solvent mixture, and stored it for one year, to see what happens.
After a year, coating worked just fine, but we realised, that at first, a thin coat was best way to apply this wet coating, as both water and acetone dried quickly that way, and coating with this thin first coat was enough to work, despite having large amounts of moisture in mixture.
You are correct with your statement about bonding and moisture. The first coat that are not dried enough, will not bond well, and display those fine bubbles after heat cure.
I cannot see the need for washing projectiles with Acetone, as it is really not needed, unless there is some sort of contamination ocuring during casting.
You are also correct, that once first coat is bonded/heat cured well, all subsequent coatings should stick well to that first coat.
I am glad that you are getting good results with your process.
When all considered, it becomes a matter of "dont rush with things", and when you get good results, ensure that you take note of what you did, and then repeat it over and over.
HI-TEK

[Ausglock]

The videos of the smashing was at the end of the day. I had coated 2000 45, 1000 44 and 1000 38 pills yesterday. The oven was running non-stop all day. each tray baked had 1 wiped and 1 smashed. even though I knew that they were fine, I still wipe and smash. Quality control...

I work in a sawmill that produces hardwood timber floor boards. I run the QA for the drying and machining processes, so QA is my bag. I carry this over to my casting/coating and all is good.

Send me some more goo, Joe. I need a Jacaranda purple and a nipple pink.

[leadman]

I tried a version of the paver stones in the oven by placing crushed granite about 1 1/2" in my ovens on the bottom. The 2 convection ovens it worked very good in but in the toaster oven it caused hot spots on either side of the element where the stones were. Bad enough to melt the boolits above the rocks.
My digital convection oven has a dehydrate mode so on cold damp days I place the tray in the oven and run it on dehydrate for 5 minutes to ensure the coating is dry then proceed to baking. Seems to work very well with the dehydrate temps being from 120 degrees to 140 degrees, about the same as in the sun in the summer.r
I found the gold gives a more even coating of color than the Red Copper and is easier to size also. I am continuing to use the Red Copper on rifle boolits.
I have some badly zinc contaminated lead that I am going to cast some boolits with just to see how the hardness holds up after baking. They test about 30 to 34 BHN after cast and aged. With selected molds it casts well enough.

[popper]

HiTek - learned the hard way about water adsorption. Years ago I glued (eastman 910) an optical reticle to the end of a motor shaft and ran it for 3 days before the $500 disk flew off & shattered. The physicist I was working for just said 'we learned something today didn't we'. He meant both of us. Just cause you got a doctorate doesn't mean you know everything.

[prickett]

I do not pre-wash my bullets. I just use thin coats for the first and second coats. Like gun oil stated.....it is a stain, not a paint.

When you talk about thin coats/stain do you do this by adding a higher percentage of acetone (5:1:10 for first coat and 5:1:7 for second)?

Or, by using the same percentages of materials as usual, but less quantity of them? (a thin coat might be 1/8 tsp per 100 whereas a thick coat would be 1/4 tsp per 100)

[Gateway Bullets]

Play with time rather than temp.
The commercial casters actually bake for only 5 minutes at elevated temps and have no problems.

We are limited by the small ovens we are using. I see Heller have a 28 Litre oven now. They have dis-continued the 48 liter that I use.

Trev, what kind of elevated temps are you talking about?

[jcobb651]

TES,

Have you verified the temp of your oven? I ask because its been a couple weeks since I baked a batch. Went to cure some today but I didn't check the temp setting on my oven. I did have a couple of thermometers in there as I bought a new one and was using the old to check the accuracy of the new. After about 8 minutes in I noticed that the bullets were waaaay darker than they should have been and that the temp was reading 425. I looked at the dial on the oven and saw that it had been moved from my previous settings....probably by one of the kids. Anyway...I immediately turned the oven off and let the bullets cool. Smash test showed some flaking, but when I rubbed just my finger across the bullet the coating all flaked away with ease...no scraping needed. That got me to thinking that maybe that the problem you were having....cooking at too high a temp.

[kryogen]

Hi, I have started reading this thread and after the first 15 pages, I had enough for tonight.

I will try reading the whole thing later, but for now I have a few questions

1- why is this better than powdercoating? less mess? less equipment required?
1.5 - what is the best color? (physical properties). Is black as good as the others? what about gold? is it "jacketed like in color?)
2- is there a retailer in canada?
3- will bayou sell to canada?
4- do you keep the bullets the same size as with 45-45-10? lets say my 9 takes 358, do I still go 358 or reduce because I dont need 1 thou over anymore?

This doesnt look more complicated than doing 2 coats of 45-45-10....

Thanks

[Ausglock]

Prickett. 5-1-7 is what I call thin. The commercial blokes use 5-1-5. 7mls per 250 9mm bullets work fine for me.
Gateway. Not sure. Ask Joe. You got a spare Auto caster kicking around you want to sell?? Keep your ear to the ground for me?
Kryogen. Hitek is designed for coating bullets. powder coat is designed for garden furniture.
All the colours work. the metallics (gold, red/copper) seem to give better performance at higher velocities.
size the same as if you were lube-sizing.
Load data is the same as for uncoated/lubed bullets.

Ask HI-TEK about shipping to our Canadian cousins.

[Gremlin460]

Because we get it first, Happy new year from down here to up there... have a great day and take care..

[Ramslammer]

G'Day All
Hope to hear from Hi Tek in the new year as I want some of this coating BAD! I reckon it'll be awesome to use and it will hopefully help with my HP rifle boolits.
Juddy

[silverjay]

Tried coating NOE 60 grn GC in .224 tonight and ran into something new for me. I tried pre crimping the check and just seating prior to coating. Did three coats of gold with extreme 2 catalyst. When I sized them on a lee push through the seated only checks didn't work at all. Extruded checks bad. On the pre crimped they sized nicely, but the coating does not stick to the aluminum gas check. Smashed several and got no cracking or pealing on the lead. Is it normal to crack and peal on the GC?

[HI-TEK]

G'Day All
Hope to hear from Hi Tek in the new year as I want some of this coating BAD! I reckon it'll be awesome to use and it will hopefully help with my HP rifle boolits.
Juddy

Hi Juddy,
Sent you a PM and had not receive your reply as yet.
Please send me an email so we can assist as required,
HI-TEK

[Ramslammer]

G'Day HI-TEK
Don't know what happened there but I sent it as a email this time. I can see all the pros for your coating but can't see a reason why someone wouldn't use it. I'm looking forward to having a go. I can also get a Canberra address for delivery.
Juddy

[kbstenberg]

Well I finally coated and baked my first batch today. Everything was easy peasy. There was a little problem with the baking. If I would have put the whole oven together It would have gone much better. The crumb tray was supposed to be installed below the door from the outside. I figured that out during my second batch of cooking.
Both batches came out Ok. The first had a good color, The second was over done slightly and had a slightly copperish color. But both batches passed the smash/ wipe test.
We were at -15 when I was cooking in my unheated building. In the time that it took to open the door and put the trey in the oven and close it again the oven lost 30 deg. and it took 2.5 min. to get back to the 390 deg. cook temp. I suppose the large swing in temp must not be a large factor in a good cooking.
On my second batch I tried to over compensate for the heat loss by increasing the oven temp. by 30 deg until my separate thermometer read close to the desired 390. Then I decreased my set temp. on the oven to the desired 390. But in doing so I slightly over cooked my bullets.
After I tested my bullets I coated for the second cooking. Tomorrow I will bake them again.
I used the 5-1-7 % for my coating. For the first coat I used 7 ML and there was no excess left in the bottom of the swirling can. On the second coating 7 ML was a little heave and left some liquid on the bottom of the can.
I could not hear a difference in the sound as I tumbled the bullets. So I tumbled them till they looked well coated. Kevin

[prickett]

I've used HI-TEK before with good results. Last night I tumbled a batch of 9mms in HI-TEK gold and when I dumped them from their tumbling container, I noticed they looked and felt grainy. I let them dry overnight and they still were grainy. I baked and they still are grainy.

What is the cause of the graininess?

[jcobb651]

When mine were grainy it was due to not shaking well enough.

[HI-TEK]

I've used HI-TEK before with good results. Last night I tumbled a batch of 9mms in HI-TEK gold and when I dumped them from their tumbling container, I noticed they looked and felt grainy. I let them dry overnight and they still were grainy. I baked and they still are grainy.

What is the cause of the graininess?

Hi,
I am assuming this is first coat. If not there is other explanations for rougher finish.
Please clarify if this happened with first coat or other?
Would it be possible if you can take a close up photo after coating/drying, & before cooking, and a photo after cooking?
A picture emininates many words.
Not sure, but from limited description, it indicates to me, that shake coating may have been done too long, and this can leave an uneven (lumpy) finish.
When trying to cook these, after drying, & due to skin formations, which may be thicker in some areas, the coating may not flow and level out well and this grainy finish is then expected..
After cook, did it wipe and smash OK?

[prickett]

When mine were grainy it was due to not shaking well enough.

I'm not clear. Shaking the HI-TEK to mix the colors? Or tumbling the boolits in the HI-TEK?

[prickett]

Hi,
I am assuming this is first coat. If not there is other explanations for rougher finish.
Please clarify if this happened with first coat or other?
Would it be possible if you can take a close up photo after coating/drying, & before cooking, and a photo after cooking?
A picture emininates many words.
Not sure, but from limited description, it indicates to me, that shake coating may have been done too long, and this can leave an uneven (lumpy) finish.
When trying to cook these, after drying, & due to skin formations, which may be thicker in some areas, the coating may not flow and level out well and this grainy finish is then expected..
After cook, did it wipe and smash OK?

This does refer to the first coat.

Can't take pictures along the way as they've already been cooked. If it happens again, I'll photograph at each stage.

Shake coating too long is certainly a possibility.

Are there any performance issues with this condition? Or, is it strictly one of appearance?

Have not had an opportunity to wipe and smash yet.

[TES]

I love this coating...When I melted down 50k bullets I had only one pot full of the old coating! I did not even have to fire them through my gun to get them back. I just made them and melted them right back down. Saved me a lot of time, primers and powder...this is sweet!

[jcobb651]

Pickett mine were grainy the first time I tried due to not shaking the coating well enough to mix it up before adding to the bullets. I didn't shake the coating well enough before adding the catalyst....didn't shake the catalyst ....and didnt shake well enough to mix all 3....as im sure you know since you've had success you have to shake the snot out of it all the way.

[jcobb651]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/02/yhupapun.jpg

This is what my grainy one looked like before baking.

[Ausglock]

rough coating is from swirling the bullets and coating in the bucket too long. Once you can see the shine of the liquid turn to dull semi-dry, dump them out on your tray.

Note that the rough surface does NOT cause any problems with wipe, smash, sizing or firing.

TES. my mother always said "if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing"

[prickett]

Thanks all. Sounds like I need to shake the ingredients thoroughly first, then limit the time spent tumbling - then my coating will be as attractive as it is durable!

[Gremlin460]

I love this coating...When I melted down 50k bullets I had only one pot full of the old coating! I did not even have to fire them through my gun to get them back. I just made them and melted them right back down. Saved me a lot of time, primers and powder...this is sweet!

in the beginning I had to do that aswell, so your not Robinson Crusoe there... That's the good thing, when you mix or bake them wrong, you get the lead back. Read back you will see pot loads of my mistakes, but now with perciverance and help from Trev and Joe, I finally got it. I even got grainy ones like Pickett has, just means a little too long in the bucket, no big deal.

This system works for many, the problem is we learn from text, and not from someone standing next to you, guiding each step. It makes for a slower learning curve, but its not a race is it.

"Show me a man who makes no mistakes and I will show you a man who does and tries nothing."

[Ausglock]

When I first started coating, There were numerous failures. So, back into the pot they went.
I still have "return to the pot" failures. these are the experimental coatings that do not bake and wipe off or are horrible colours.

As for the blue/green, red/copper, gold, black, red etc. they all work fine IF....IF process, time and temperature are correct.

Imagine you have a CNC Mill. If the programming isn't right, it's no good blaming the machine when the finished piece is no good.

[HI-TEK]

When I first started coating, There were numerous failures. So, back into the pot they went.
I still have "return to the pot" failures. these are the experimental coatings that do not bake and wipe off or are horrible colours.

As for the blue/green, red/copper, gold, black, red etc. they all work fine IF....IF process, time and temperature are correct.

Imagine you have a CNC Mill. If the programming isn't right, it's no good blaming the machine when the finished piece is no good.

What I find strangely curious is, why would any one make 50K projectiles without getting the process correct in the first place and then having to melt it all down?
Most logical scenario would be to make small amounts, get process down to a fine art, then start building up volumes after successful process is established.
It is very puzzling.

[220]

G'Day All
Hope to hear from Hi Tek in the new year as I want some of this coating BAD! I reckon it'll be awesome to use and it will hopefully help with my HP rifle boolits.
Juddy
Showed Whato some of my HP last night, he said you were keen to try it, now I just need to work up some loads for CLAS.
If you need a mainland address for delivery you can always get it delivered to my shop for Whato to pick up. Couriers stop off just about everyday anyway and always someone there to take delivery.

[Ramslammer]

G'Day
Your getting some use out of the mold then? Was a nice boolit but wouldn't feed in the 444 and all my 44mag stuff is lighter.
Juddy

[prickett]

What I find strangely curious is, why would any one make 50K projectiles without getting the process correct in the first place and then having to melt it all down?

Sometimes we just get really excited about these cool new coatings :-)

[HI-TEK]

Sometimes we just get really excited about these cool new coatings :-)

My apologies.
I tend to forget, that because I have been living this stuff for years, I tend to forget that some folk would find it addictive, and things would get out of hand.
Ausglock told me that his missus complained that she became became a coating widow.
He casts and coats every waking minute, and I think he is addicted already, and only in a short time.
Then, he runs down local range and shoots them all, then goes back home and starts again.
What have I done.....lol...lol

[Ausglock]

Yep. I cast, therefore, I coat.
The missus thinks it is great. I'm always in the shed and not in the house annoying her.
Limited casting/coating today. too hot.

[Ramslammer]

G'Day All
Had a good talk to HI-TEK today and he was very informative. Hopefully he got my email sent through Cast Boolits because for some reason my email kept coming up error. Looking forward to getting rolling and hope to learn from all the stuff ups you blokes had. Going to get the same oven as AusGlock because we know it works. Might need to have some Bundy and Coke to get mixing bottles.
Juddy

[Ausglock]

Ramrooter.

Where in the south island are ya?
We were down that way last xmas for 3 weeks playing mainland terrorists...
the Heller 48 litre oven is not made anymore. they now do a 28 litre.

Get some popper juice bottles. they work better. mix 5-1-7.
Robins kitchen sell glass shot glass type things with measurements up the side. Great for decanting the colour and the catalyst. I use a plastic cup in mls from a carpaint supplier for the acetone.

[bmiller]

Yep. I cast, therefore, I coat.
The missus thinks it is great. I'm always in the shed and not in the house annoying her.
Limited casting/coating today. too hot.

Wish I had that problem, it was 5* F here today. Going to get a lot colder next week!

[Ramslammer]

G'Day Trevor
I'm in Hobart. I'm looking at the BT7000 sunbeam oven, as I think you said it was the one. Top and bottom elements with fan force so should fill the needs. I'll keep my eye out for a large oven but don't care which as I just want to get the right one first. After speaking with HI-TEK,who was great in explaining stuff it appears that if you follow some simple steps even a mug like me can do this. As he said if I have problems just contact him. Can't complain about his service.
I reckon I'll try black and red/copper and they should cover most of my requirements. I'm working mainly at the other end of the scale than you, as I'm mucking about with rifle hollow points at the moment. Got plenty of pistol cals but all in rifles. Finding now that I'm doing more cast shooting than anything else. Here in TAS we have supply problems at times but with a shed full of different alloys (about 2 ton) and some casting gear I've got it all covered.
Juddy

[kryogen]

was -43 without the windchill tonight here.
I don't think I will be coating outside for a while ;)

[kbstenberg]

observations of a newbie. My mix is 5/1/7. When I coat with 7 ml after I dump the bullets from the mixing can there is a small quantity of liquid on the bottom of the can. Just barely enough to see it run in the can. Bullets come out well coated after the bake.
On the next batch of bullets I tried 6.5 ml. for the first and second coat. There was no loose liquid on the bottom of the can. All of the driving bands were well coated after the bake so the lead couldn't be seen. But there was minimal coating in the grease grooves and on the nose of the bullet. Where there was coating you could see lead through the coating.
Should I go back to the 7ml. coat and have it a little heavier?
I have not shot any yet to see about leading. Kevin

[Gateway Bullets]

was -43 without the windchill tonight here.
I don't think I will be coating outside for a while ;)

Now that's cold!

[silverjay]

Anyone using gas checks with coating? Install check befor or after coating?

[jgieske]

Hello everyone! New caster here, but a long time hand loader. I've been lurking in the shadows for quite a while now and I've decided to give this stuff a shot. My first mold is an Accurate 31-240E for subs in a 300blk. I'll be using a Lee 4-20 pot and I just finished building a PID controller to help out. I've pretty much read this entire thread so I'm ready and rarin' to go. I guess my only question at this point is if there is a "go to" convection oven that everyone is using. I'd like to stay under $100 if possible. Also, what is a decent (accurate) oven thermometer to get?

This website has taken just about all of the guesswork out of casting. Soo much knowledge and information. All that is left is for me to actually do it! Thanks in advance!

Jeff

[jgieske]

using gas checks with coating? Install check befor or after coating?[/QUOTE]

Prior posters have stated they coat after installing gas checks. Someone with experience correct me if I'm wrong.

[prickett]

Hello everyone! New caster here, but a long time hand loader. I've been lurking in the shadows for quite a while now and I've decided to give this stuff a shot. My first mold is an Accurate 31-240E for subs in a 300blk. I'll be using a Lee 4-20 pot and I just finished building a PID controller to help out. I've pretty much read this entire thread so I'm ready and rarin' to go. I guess my only question at this point is if there is a "go to" convection oven that everyone is using. I'd like to stay under $100 if possible. Also, what is a decent (accurate) oven thermometer to get?

This website has taken just about all of the guesswork out of casting. Soo much knowledge and information. All that is left is for me to actually do it! Thanks in advance!

Jeff

Jeff,
I bought a $40 Black and Decker from Walmart that is adequate. I can handle around 100 .45 at a time or 120 9mm's. You have to crank the temp to the max (425F) to achieve 400F, but, its cheap and works.

Walmart also sells oven thermometers for $8 that work just fine (kind of hard to screw up a thermometer :-) )

[Ausglock]

was -43 without the windchill tonight here.
I don't think I will be coating outside for a while ;)

I can't even imagine how cold that is... The coldest I have ever seen was -5 deg C one year we were out west shooting foxes and pigs.

How can you live in that cold???

[Ausglock]

observations of a newbie. My mix is 5/1/7. When I coat with 7 ml after I dump the bullets from the mixing can there is a small quantity of liquid on the bottom of the can. Just barely enough to see it run in the can. Bullets come out well coated after the bake.
On the next batch of bullets I tried 6.5 ml. for the first and second coat. There was no loose liquid on the bottom of the can. All of the driving bands were well coated after the bake so the lead couldn't be seen. But there was minimal coating in the grease grooves and on the nose of the bullet. Where there was coating you could see lead through the coating.
Should I go back to the 7ml. coat and have it a little heavier?
I have not shot any yet to see about leading. Kevin

G'day Kev.
Mate, stick with the 5-1-7. I too get a bit of wet on the bottom of the bucket. But keep swirling and it will dry up. The next swirl of bullets will re-liquify it and the bullets will pick it up.

[Ausglock]

G'Day Trevor
I'm in Hobart. I'm looking at the BT7000 sunbeam oven, as I think you said it was the one. Top and bottom elements with fan force so should fill the needs.
Juddy

Ramrooter. The BT7000 was OK. but the Heller is better at holding temp.
A lot of blokes on here are now using the Breville Smart oven. Search back a few pages for the model. I have seen them at the good guys and Hardly Normal for about $250. I'm getting one when my heller schits itself.

[jgieske]

Jeff,
I bought a $40 Black and Decker from Walmart that is adequate. I can handle around 100 .45 at a time or 120 9mm's. You have to crank the temp to the max (425F) to achieve 400F, but, its cheap and works.

Walmart also sells oven thermometers for $8 that work just fine (kind of hard to screw up a thermometer :-) )

Good deal. If it's cheap and it works, I like it. Thanks for the input.

[Ausglock]

today's construction. I hate how video does not always orientate itself from the phone. Really Schits me.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash1/th_2014-01-04_11-29-14_113.jpg (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash1/2014-01-04_11-29-14_113.mp4)

Sorry. It's sideways.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash1/th_010414174700.jpg (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash1/010414174700.mp4)
I think I need more leverage.
It works with the 45 pills, but runs out of oomph on the 9mm.
Mark ll might get built next week. :-)

[Gremlin460]

Let me guess Trev you used a wiper motor from Joes old HQ!!!

I am also working on a inverted design of a sizer, Id like to incorporate a bullet feeder aswell, problem is the bullet feeder collates the pills the "wrong" way up to drop into the sizer die. I think it would be just a case of moving the pickup tube to catch the ones normally disgarded for being nose down and carrying the nose up ones past the drop chute.

Dunno, haven't got a spare collater laying around to piss with. There are some good home made designs on Utube I am currently studying though.

I would think about putting the multiplying pivots back on the press and use your assembly to replace the pull handle, that's pivot linkage multiplys the applied force quite a bit and should fix your 9mm pill push problem.

Mike

[Gremlin460]

Sorry Trev just realized they were videos after my last post...

Look at this video and save ya snot hooks from the ram!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJOkb3RxrZE

Mike

[Ausglock]

yeah. I had visions of my finger getting a .45 dia hole punched through it.

[sigman]

Looks like it could be painful, maybe a foot switch like a tatoo gun could save a finger

[Ausglock]

yep. I like the plastic feed tube idea. gunna run with that.

[silverjay]

With coated boolits I keep getting a lead/coating washer at the end of the chamber after 10-15 rounds. I don't get that with lead/lube. Same mold, sizing die, same gun. Any ideas?

[gunoil]

Can ya mates figure this m. star bullet feeder adapted to your red sizer. They are 120$ bucks, but u could adapt it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UozyDZ-44Q4

Just a thought.

[Ausglock]

Yeah. I have just bought a 7/8x14 tap to make my own base to screw the sizer die into. An auto bullet placer like that is on the list of things to build.

[gunoil]

Yes, aint much to it. Except to figure actuation.

[dverna]

I had a bullet feeder on a Star and it is OK if you are doing DEWC's (Double Ended Wadcutters). Otherwise, filling the tubes is rather bothersome unless you have a bullet collator.

I like the PVC pipe "feeder" on YouTube. Keeps your hands away from the punch and will definitely speed up the process safely.

Don Verna

Don Verna

[Ausglock]

Gunslick. any chance of a vid showing a closeup of the workings?

[Gremlin460]

Ok trev lots of bullet collators on youtube made from buckets and easy to build, BUT the gem I found was this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw0VdRcZrpA That's little baby will turn them the way we need to have them for sizing... couple that with a lee bullet feeder and its away you go..

[Gateway Bullets]

Trev,

You're going to have to change your name to Nubs or Nine Fingers after you use that thing. But I do like the idea!

[Ausglock]

ha... I sized 3000 45 pills yesterday with it. worked great. And I still have 10 fingers...woohoooo.

[TES]

What I find strangely curious is, why would any one make 50K projectiles without getting the process correct in the first place and then having to melt it all down?
Most logical scenario would be to make small amounts, get process down to a fine art, then start building up volumes after successful process is established.
It is very puzzling.

Well you see..I got it to work and pass the tests.

All batches were tested between coats to make sure there was not an underlying problem.

It just seems like it becomes brittle with a month or two of sitting and the coating shatters when smashed and scratches easily.
I can't figure it out and I don't have the time or money to invest in this anymore.
Not only did mine fail but others have too so I know its not just me.

It must work for most and I guess I'm just a rare case of it failing.
I'll except that.
I don't normally let things get the best of me but this has been an exercise in insanity...repeating the same mistake over and over again.


It is not for me and my clients. I can't imagine pointing them to this thread for a "how to" answer. Nor can I fathom trying to remember everything that has been suggested when I'm trying to run a business.

I wish you all the best of luck with your endeavors and this great habit! Good luck all.

Just so you all know....Donnie is a great guy to deal with and Bayou Bullets has made every attempt to clear things up. I just gave up on this.

TES

Almost forgot......Trev that's slick.

[Gateway Bullets]

Tes,

Sorry to hear that you're throwing in the towel! I know that I had problems with the coating after the weather here turned cold. But after starting over multiple times to figure out the problem, I figured it out. Don't give up! Start over, coat small batches, cook small batches, and slowly ramp up!

I have a bunch of bullets that I coated months ago, and they pass all test and not brittle at all.

My biggest problem, in my opinion, was my tumbler. I would coat 30-40# of bullets and all would fail. I let them dry on top of the oven, on top of the oven with small heaters blowing over them, let them set for days before cooking, and it all failed! I was sooooooo mad and frustrated!!!

I then cleaned my tumbler out and noticed the powder coating was dissolving off into the rag. You could just scrape it off with your finger nail. So I went and grabbed a plastic tub and started doing it buy hand, 20#s at a time, lowered my cook temp 5*f, and guess what? Coating is working now!

I mentioned it to Hi-Tek and he said that I should have been using a plastic tub inside the tumbler all along.

Just start over and take notes of what you're doing as reference.

[Michael J. Spangler]

just ordered some coating. can't wait to try it

this thread is huge and i've done some reading but can't catch up with it all

what are the results with rifle? has anyone made it work with mid weight bullets in 308? thanks guys!

[Gremlin460]

Trev the hilux motor has a auto park feature, works on interupting the earth leg, if you wire it that way so park is just off "up", you can wire a momentary button and it will punch once and stop.
So you can drop the pill tap the button when fingers clear.
fit it on foot switch if you like. need the wiring layout give us a ring after 5.30 ish

[HI-TEK]

just ordered some coating. can't wait to try it

this thread is huge and i've done some reading but can't catch up with it all

what are the results with rifle? has anyone made it work with mid weight bullets in 308? thanks guys!


Results supplied from a commercial manufacturer using Dark Green coating.
I dont know if this helps.
Hi-Tek

Quote...."165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 650-750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of coating.
One coating also gave same results same. No gas checks were used".

[Ausglock]

Grem. Scratch the Hilux wiper motor.
I just picked up 2 motorized Golf carts (walk behind types). They have 12 volt motor with gearbox and speed control. they are very strong torque wise.

I'm going to keep one and modify if for a Range cart. It can carry my range bag, Umbrella, Esky etc etc. It has a seat already. Going to attack it with the plasma cutter and weld up a frame for all my gear... Woohoo.

The other will get cut up and used for the sizer. May have to reduce the rpm's via pulleys or bicycle chain and sprockets.
Lookout... Mark 2 is in the works.

[SpotHound]

I need incredible force to size my ranch dogs down from 314 to 309. Would this motor do that?

[220]

Results supplied from a commercial manufacturer using Dark Green coating.
I dont know if this helps.
Hi-Tek

Quote...."165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 650-750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of coating.
One coating also gave same results same. No gas checks were used".
Are you sure on the speed? 41gr is ADI's listed start load for 168 J-word, they list 2550fps roughly 750 metres per sec. Might be mps I cant see nearly 2000fps difference between J and cast with the same charge.

[Ausglock]

I think Joe was talkin Mps.

Spot dog. no idea until I try it.

[HI-TEK]

Are you sure on the speed? 41gr is ADI's listed start load for 168 J-word, they list 2550fps roughly 750 metres per sec. Might be mps I cant see nearly 2000fps difference between J and cast with the same charge.

Apology my typo mistake.

It should have been 2650 to 2750 ft/second.
They used normal 92:6:2 alloy.

Main reason for the test to see if the cast alloy could be shot with that caliber, and be reasonably accurate, no build up in barrel and no leading..

Sorry for not picking up my mistake earlier.

[Gremlin460]

You all know there is a chat option attached to these forums yeah?

Excelent Trev, I toyed going with air powered ram but I think would be too noisey to run that way.

[jcobb651]

Please tell me this thread hasnt died...

[Ausglock]

Not died. Just resting.

[Liberty'sSon]

Ok, having a little issue. Recently bought a used Ballisticast auto caster. I haven't had a chance to hook it up yet, too many irons in the fire, maybe tomorrow. Anyway, the unit came with some already cast 9mm and 45cal Boolits, I coated some 9s at the end of last week and the wipe and smash passed great. The problem I had was that it appears the machine/ molds are casting quite large .362 for the 9s and .457 for the 45s.
When sized back to .356 in a Lee size die,the coating is mostly shaved/wiped off and I get leading when shot. I haven't coated any 45s yet, they aren't quite as oversized and may work fine.
The only answer I can think of is sizing them down in two steps or purchase a new mold set. I would rather avoid these if at all possible. Any other ideas?

[Ausglock]

Coat once. Size. Coat second time.
Or......sell me the machine :-)

[jcobb651]

Ok, having a little issue. Recently bought a used Ballisticast auto caster. I haven't had a chance to hook it up yet, too many irons in the fire, maybe tomorrow. Anyway, the unit came with some already cast 9mm and 45cal Boolits, I coated some 9s at the end of last week and the wipe and smash passed great. The problem I had was that it appears the machine/ molds are casting quite large .362 for the 9s and .457 for the 45s.
When sized back to .356 in a Lee size die,the coating is mostly shaved/wiped off and I get leading when shot. I haven't coated any 45s yet, they aren't quite as oversized and may work fine.
The only answer I can think of is sizing them down in two steps or purchase a new mold set. I would rather avoid these if at all possible. Any other ideas?

I cast, coat, resize, coat, then coat again. I have just applied the second coat after sizing with no appreciable difference in acxuracy I just like the looks of the third coat better.

[Gateway Bullets]

Ok, having a little issue. Recently bought a used Ballisticast auto caster. I haven't had a chance to hook it up yet, too many irons in the fire, maybe tomorrow. Anyway, the unit came with some already cast 9mm and 45cal Boolits, I coated some 9s at the end of last week and the wipe and smash passed great. The problem I had was that it appears the machine/ molds are casting quite large .362 for the 9s and .457 for the 45s.
When sized back to .356 in a Lee size die,the coating is mostly shaved/wiped off and I get leading when shot. I haven't coated any 45s yet, they aren't quite as oversized and may work fine.
The only answer I can think of is sizing them down in two steps or purchase a new mold set. I would rather avoid these if at all possible. Any other ideas?

Have Magma molds made for your Ballisti Cast. I had Ballisti before and the molds were terrible! They were over sized and the weights varied. One 9-135g would be 135gr, next 126gr, next 138gr and so forth.

[Gremlin460]

Persona;;y if they shaved coating off being sized I would not have shot them. My mold drops then at 359 now that I removed the lube bands and re polished the holes, I size to 358 due to the fact my factory barrel slugged at 356.2.
I don't think from what you have said those molds are going to be any good for 9mm, they MAY be ok for 38's. but 362 is quite a bit over size for 9mm supposedly 355.

[prickett]

IIRC, once you size to the point you shave lead subsequent coats don't adhere to the lead. People trying to coat commercially sized and lubed boolits (after removing the lube) found that out.

[Liberty'sSon]

Coat once. Size. Coat second time.
Or......sell me the machine :-)

Ausglock, you sneaky little bugger, all that walking around upside down, driving on the wrong side of the road, and having your clocks run backwards Downunder must have damaged your thinker. :-)

[HI-TEK]

Ausglock, you sneaky little bugger, all that walking around upside down, driving on the wrong side of the road, and having your clocks run backwards Downunder must have damaged your thinker. :-)

As I have been saying for a long time, we are the right way up.
The reason we drive on the wrong side is that we have had to, and are environmentally friendly.
The Wallabies, Roos, and other critters, all want to stand on the roadside on our right,and we were forced to drive on the left hand side, so we dont run over them with our cars. lol lol

[Ausglock]

Ausglock, you sneaky little bugger, all that walking around upside down, driving on the wrong side of the road, and having your clocks run backwards Downunder must have damaged your thinker. :-)

Remind me to send you a few drop bears to infest the rafters of your shed. hahahahahah.
93127

[Michael J. Spangler]

so without having to completely dig through this thread.
what would you guys suggest for an alloy for general target pistol loads? (9mm 45 cap and 40) i figured damn near pure would work with this coating

thanks guys!

[Liberty'sSon]

Remind me to send you a few drop bears to infest the rafters of your shed. hahahahahah.
93127

Ausglock,
I would love some Drop Bears. My address is 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC.
You Aussies are so thoughtful.

[Ausglock]

Ausglock,
I would love some Drop Bears. My address is 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington DC.
You Aussies are so thoughtful.

No worries, Mr President. I would never have taken you for a Bullet Caster, Barack. After all the stories we hear about you hating guns and all.:Fire:

MJS. I only use 2,6,92 (hardball 15-16BHN) alloy for my 9mm, 357sig, 357/38 and 40 cal bullets. I use 10-12BHN for my 44 and 45 Bullets.

[silverjay]

With coated boolits I keep getting a lead/coating washer at the end of the chamber after 10-15 rounds. I don't get that with lead/lube. Same mold, sizing die, same gun. Any ideas?


No ideas? Tried loading regular lead/lube and coated back to back and shot them this mor ing with the same results. Lead run fine with no leading. Coated leave a ring in the chamber of lead/coating mixed. About ready to give up on the coating.

[dverna]

silverjay

I do not coat but there have been millions of coated bullets used in pistols with success. Do your coated bullets pass the wipe test? If you pull a bullet from a loaded case has the coating been compromised or is it still covering the bullet?

There is definitely something abnormal in what you are experiencing. If you shoot the load in a different gun are the results the same?

Don Verna

[silverjay]

They pass the wipe and smash test. Same result in three guns. No problems with removing coating during seating. Checked several and seating/ crimping in separate steps. I figure it is something simple I am messing up, just can't figure it out.

[Ausglock]

OK... more info needed.
What gun(s)?
Bullet shape?
Size?
Alloy?
Coating?
Procedure?
Weight?
Etc etc etc.. We need far more info.
Photos would be good.

[silverjay]

93317In order:

P239, glock 17, p290
MP 359-125 sized to 0.358"
50/50 COWW/SOWW
Gold coating - 3 coats (light stain coats), cook at 390 for 10 min, wipe and smash after each pass with no issues and then size in lee push through. Water dropped after last coat. With 2 coats I get light leading in the last inch or so. No barrel lead with 3 coats. Load on Dillon 550 with separate dillon seat and crimp dies. Pulled after seating and still measure 0.358 with micrometer.

[Ausglock]

OK.. it may be the colour of the photo, but they look overcooked to me. The gold looks brown.
Also. in my 17 and G34, I size .356 and they are accurate and shoot fine with no issues. You think the extra .002 in Dia may be getting cut off at it enters the bore?

Try a few sized to .356 and see how they go.

[silverjay]

I can run a batch at less temp/time. My bores are 0.356, will a coated boolit not lead at the same diameter?

[Ausglock]

What have you got to loose?
Keep your temp setting and reduce the time by 1 minute.
Even try .357.

[ChaplainJohn]

Remind me to send you a few drop bears to infest the rafters of your shed. hahahahahah.
93127
Finally got thru the whole thread! I just have to ask... Ausglock have you got those droppers started to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave yet? Please hurry, help us out of our misery!!!
I'll be on with annoying questions later. I already have product and most of equipment in place. Casting will start in a week or two soon as loading room is finished.

[Ausglock]

Australian Customs would not let me send them to that address. They said that the tennant of the dwelling was known for being cruel to dumb animals.

[NVScouter]

So after reading the last 50 pages still no real answer on rifle use?

I say the 20 rounds at 25M no leading test. No accuracy report even at pistol range. How about at 100/200/300/400 yards (I'd even take meters!)

I'm interested but would like more info before dropping $$ on an unknown.

[Ausglock]

So after reading the last 50 pages still no real answer on rifle use?

I say the 20 rounds at 25M no leading test. No accuracy report even at pistol range. How about at 100/200/300/400 yards (I'd even take meters!)

I'm interested but would like more info before dropping $$ on an unknown.

Maybe see here?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?220557-Real-Accuracy-(2-moa-or-less)-with-Coated-Rifle-Bullets-at-1800-fps-or-greater

[220]

Seems its to cold for you blokes to do any testing and to hot for any of us down under.
They are talking temps of around 110 here for the next week or more when it cools down I've got some testing to do. Mainly pistol but some 357 loads that will see duty in my marlin for hunting and lever silhouette.

[NVScouter]

Thanks Ausieglock. I hope that keeps going!

[dverna]

NV

Coated (either PC or Hi-Tek) bullets have not been able to achieve very many accurate loads at rifle velocities - only two as far as I know. That was why I started the thread that Ausglock directed you to.

The good news is that with both types of coating, leading at velocities over 2500 fps has not been an problem. So, there is hope coatings may yet deliver the goods.

I have no horse in this race as I do not coat - and will not - unless coated bullets can achieve superior results in rifle loads. My gut feeling is that PC will have a better chance than Hi-Tek (note: both "success" stories in rifles are with PC). Popper has done work with both coatings and has achieved success with PC in a .308 and he uses Hi-Tek for pistol bullets.

Good luck

Don Verna

[HI-TEK]

NV

Coated (either PC or Hi-Tek) bullets have not been able to achieve very many accurate loads at rifle velocities - only two as far as I know. That was why I started the thread that Ausglock directed you to.

The good news is that with both types of coating, leading at velocities over 2500 fps has not been an problem. So, there is hope coatings may yet deliver the goods.

I have no horse in this race as I do not coat - and will not - unless coated bullets can achieve superior results in rifle loads. My gut feeling is that PC will have a better chance than Hi-Tek (note: both "success" stories in rifles are with PC). Popper has done work with both coatings and has achieved success with PC in a .308 and he uses Hi-Tek for pistol bullets.

Good luck

Don Verna

Hi Don,
Thanks for input.

Just for information, locally, a commercial caster, reported results on rifle use application using Dark Green coating.
I have posted this previously.
I dont know if this result is of significance or not.

Below is what was done.

Quote
"165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 2650-2750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of coating.
One coating also gave same results same. No gas checks were used." End of Quote.

[popper]

Quote
"165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 2650-2750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of coating.
One coating also gave same results same. No gas checks were used." End of Quote.
I assume this was NOT an accuracy test. Starting Varget load for jacketed.

[HI-TEK]

Quote
"165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 2650-2750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of coating.
One coating also gave same results same. No gas checks were used." End of Quote.
I assume this was NOT an accuracy test. Starting Varget load for jacketed.


Thanks for your reply.
You are correct.
Tests that were done was to determine
1. That coating prevented Leading of barrel in such use.
2. Coating stayed on alloy and did not foul up barrel.
3. Determine if standard alloy 92:6:2 could be shot with such speeds, and hit the target without disintegration.
User did advise, that at that point, they did not consider accuracy matters, as tests were mainly to see if it could be done or not.
They also said, that as their business was mainly handguns, there was no urgency to do any further testing with rifle ammo.
From various reports on this site, many have used the coated alloys successfully. I have not been advised details so I can comment.

[Gateway Bullets]

Hi-Tek,

I've been working with a local guy that wants to start running product in his subsonic 300 Blackout through a suppressor. He gave me a few molds to play with so I can coat his projectiles. He is very excited about the bullets coated with the snake oil!

I'll let you know how they run through his gun.

[dverna]

Hi-Tek

I had to laugh when I read "they did not consider accuracy matters". Duhhhhh?

Listen, I understand the guy was just seeing what the coating would do but I still find it truly astounding that people just shoot rounds to check for leading and are too lazy to put up a target and see the results. The funny thing is I have never shot or met people like that. Just shoot 20 rounds into the berm for the fun of it. What???

I am cynical. It is likely they shot at a target and the results were less than stellar.

I started a thread for people to post success at achieving 2 moa at 1800+ fps. That will cover a lot of cast rifle bullets/loads and should not be too far a stretch over the great results Hi-Tek has demonstrated at pistol velocities. We both know that rifle shooters will want to go a lot faster but it looks like 1800 fps has not been easy - at least so far. Let's walk before we run!!

I intend to bump the thread every month if it dies but so far I have only done it once. With better weather here in the North America still 2-3 months away things should start to pop soon and we will see more test results

Please do not take my previous comments as a condemnation of your product. It is doing a great job with pistol bullets and frankly that is where the biggest market is. Like I said, I am not pushing an agenda. But as yet, only PC'ed bullets have been able to achieve accuracy. And it DOES matter - LOL

All good,

Don Verna

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek

I had to laugh when I read "they did not consider accuracy matters". Duhhhhh?

Listen, I understand the guy was just seeing what the coating would do but I still find it truly astounding that people just shoot rounds to check for leading and are too lazy to put up a target and see the results. The funny thing is I have never shot or met people like that. Just shoot 20 rounds into the berm for the fun of it. What???

I am cynical. It is likely they shot at a target and the results were less than stellar.

I started a thread for people to post success at achieving 2 moa at 1800+ fps. That will cover a lot of cast rifle bullets/loads and should not be too far a stretch over the great results Hi-Tek has demonstrated at pistol velocities. We both know that rifle shooters will want to go a lot faster but it looks like 1800 fps has not been easy - at least so far. Let's walk before we run!!

I intend to bump the thread every month if it dies but so far I have only done it once. With better weather here in the North America still 2-3 months away things should start to pop soon and we will see more test results

Please do not take my previous comments as a condemnation of your product. It is doing a great job with pistol bullets and frankly that is where the biggest market is. Like I said, I am not pushing an agenda. But as yet, only PC'ed bullets have been able to achieve accuracy. And it DOES matter - LOL

All good,

Don Verna

Thanks for your reply.
I do not understand your having to laugh about someone trying to determine if 92:6:2 alloy could be shot in a rifle?
He used a Worthington arms 308, old gun, and a rebuilt rifle with new 303 long distance target barrel.
Both guns were found to have No coating deposits, No leading but failed grouping aspects.

Reason for the test was to determine if the coating withstood the shooting action without barrels Leading up at speeds that were used.

I contacted tester, and I was advised, that he considered that the speeds achieved were much too high for the alloy used and grouping was not good at all.
He simply realised that at the speeds achieved, the coating did not fail, and did not separate from the alloy, left no residues, and no Leading inside barrel..

Also, as the coating did not fail at that speed, despite poor grouping, the test proved a point or two, and, as advised previously, his business is handgun ammo, and has very low interest with doing testing with other loads, and other alloys, as he has not had the time, as he is flat out with his other production.
Rifle ammo is not his big volume business.
You noted, that you PC'd bullets that alleged as having worked, but fail to advise with your reply, what gun,what alloy you used, what hardness, what speed achieved, what powder load, etc etc.

From various blogs where PC shooting results have been posted, I have seen a number of very upset folk trying to find out how to remove baked on and bonded PC from inside their barrels which also included Lead deposits bonded with the PC coating..

I am not saying that some PC material will not work, but you are asking for very detailed test results, and continue question capability of the HI-Tek coatings, in Rifle ammo, without specifying that the product in fact had not failed, but alloys used were probably the problem in the first place.

I have no problems with people being sceptical, as it is natural reaction, especially when such technology was previously not known.
What you may or may not know, is that our coating has been used successfully, on Jacketed Rifle ammo, where the coating significantly reduced and in some instances eliminated Copper fouling and barrels were left clean.
So, the search for the magic "solution" is still on-going.

[dverna]

Hi-Tek,

It would have been so much simpler to give the whole story up front - which is - "no leading but poor accuracy". End of story. Nothing new. Coatings (including yours) have been pushed over 2500 fps without leading so that is not news. The news will be when we achieve repeatable accuracy. Your words were "they did not consider accuracy matters". That sparked my reply.

I am not using any coatings. As I have stated in other threads "I have no horse in this race". I will use whatever works. Right now, at this point in time, with only two people having met the 2 moa at 1800+ fps level of performance, I am staying with traditional lubes for rifle work. BUT, I am open to change IF something better comes along.

You write, "you are asking for very detailed test results, and continue question capability of the HI-Tek coatings, in Rifle ammo, without specifying that the product in fact had not failed, but alloys used were probably the problem in the first place." Let's examine that.

If the group size, number of shots, yardage, load data (or velocity), alloy, sized diameter, type of coating used, and how it was applied is 'very detailed' - color (colour for our Queen's English friends) me guilty. I am anal about stuff like that. But, I guess that is a lot of information so let's keep it simple. Just post a group, range and the load data. It will give us a start.

You are upset about me questioning the performance of Hi-Tek in rifles and I am guilty again. So far, after years of use down-under, and over a year of testing here in the US no one has posted a decent group at rifle velocities using Hi-Tek. I am sorry but I have to conclude it does not work - at least in its present form. What other conclusion can anyone draw?

It is not my place to explain why Hi-Tek has not worked. I trust you will agree that is your job - it is your product. If alloy is suspected, start with straight linotype. Get some success first, and then work with softer alloys. I would be happy to cast with straight linotype (I have about 400 lbs) IF that is what it takes - but we need to know that.

Sir, I am not against you or your product. I sincerely hope something better than traditional lubes permit cast bullets to more easily reach a new level of performance. A level that that can achieve with paper but is a pain to do. If I may be bold, let me provide some advice and my impressions.

You do not seem to be a shooter (at least not a rifle shooter). Your contribution is the chemistry and production of coatings. Your time is better spent there than learning to cast perfect bullets, load perfect ammunition, tune a target gun, and do the testing. Find a person in your area who has the ability and interest in developing the test data to prove the product. Pay them a little bit for their help if necessary - although some will do it for nothing or for free product.

You have stumbled around the rifle performance question for a long time. People like popper who have tried both have decided to go with PC'ed bullets for rifles. The more "success stories" we see with PC'ed bullets, the greater the number of people who will go that route. Once the market shifts in that direction, you will need a superior product to get market share back and it will be a tough battle. Trust me - as we say here "this is not my first rodeo". Taking market share is not easy even when you have a better product. But you know that - getting commercial casters in the US to convert to Hi-Tek has been challenge.

Just my $.02 and I do sincerely wish you success.

Don Verna

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek,

It would have been so much simpler to give the whole story up front - which is - "no leading but poor accuracy". End of story. Nothing new. Coatings (including yours) have been pushed over 2500 fps without leading so that is not news. The news will be when we achieve repeatable accuracy. Your words were "they did not consider accuracy matters". That sparked my reply.

I am not using any coatings. As I have stated in other threads "I have no horse in this race". I will use whatever works. Right now, at this point in time, with only two people having met the 2 moa at 1800+ fps level of performance, I am staying with traditional lubes for rifle work. BUT, I am open to change IF something better comes along.

You write, "you are asking for very detailed test results, and continue question capability of the HI-Tek coatings, in Rifle ammo, without specifying that the product in fact had not failed, but alloys used were probably the problem in the first place." Let's examine that.

If the group size, number of shots, yardage, load data (or velocity), alloy, sized diameter, type of coating used, and how it was applied is 'very detailed' - color (colour for our Queen's English friends) me guilty. I am anal about stuff like that. But, I guess that is a lot of information so let's keep it simple. Just post a group, range and the load data. It will give us a start.

You are upset about me questioning the performance of Hi-Tek in rifles and I am guilty again. So far, after years of use down-under, and over a year of testing here in the US no one has posted a decent group at rifle velocities using Hi-Tek. I am sorry but I have to conclude it does not work - at least in its present form. What other conclusion can anyone draw?

It is not my place to explain why Hi-Tek has not worked. I trust you will agree that is your job - it is your product. If alloy is suspected, start with straight linotype. Get some success first, and then work with softer alloys. I would be happy to cast with straight linotype (I have about 400 lbs) IF that is what it takes - but we need to know that.

Sir, I am not against you or your product. I sincerely hope something better than traditional lubes permit cast bullets to more easily reach a new level of performance. A level that that can achieve with paper but is a pain to do. If I may be bold, let me provide some advice and my impressions.

You do not seem to be a shooter (at least not a rifle shooter). Your contribution is the chemistry and production of coatings. Your time is better spent there than learning to cast perfect bullets, load perfect ammunition, tune a target gun, and do the testing. Find a person in your area who has the ability and interest in developing the test data to prove the product. Pay them a little bit for their help if necessary - although some will do it for nothing or for free product.

You have stumbled around the rifle performance question for a long time. People like popper who have tried both have decided to go with PC'ed bullets for rifles. The more "success stories" we see with PC'ed bullets, the greater the number of people who will go that route. Once the market shifts in that direction, you will need a superior product to get market share back and it will be a tough battle. Trust me - as we say here "this is not my first rodeo". Taking market share is not easy even when you have a better product. But you know that - getting commercial casters in the US to convert to Hi-Tek has been challenge.

Just my $.02 and I do sincerely wish you success.

Don Verna

Thank you for your reply.
I will take on board your suggestions and try to improve.

[HI-TEK]

I just wish to add some responses to your suggestions.
Item 1.
Quote; "It is not my place to explain why Hi-Tek has not worked".
"I am sorry but I have to conclude it does not work - at least in its present form.

Reply, I do not know why you keep on saying this?
The coatings are not designed to be an armor plate, nor is it expected to solve all other engineering problems associated with all manner of guns.

The coating is simply a dry film bonded lube to separate barrel from alloy/metal contact during shooting.

If the coating had survived on shot projectiles, and stopped Leading and/or barrel fouling, then, as far as I am concerned, the coating has done its job for what it was designed to do.

The coating reduced atomized Lead emissions, then it has done its job.

If it has been used successfully on Jacketed ammo, to stop Copper fouling and Leading, then again the coating has done its job.

In many applications the coating has eliminated need for Gas checks. So the coating did what it was supposed to, and that is, reflect heat away from projectiles produced from powder burn and frictional heat.
I cannot understand the stance you are adopting, saying the HI-TEK did not work?

What do you wish for the coating to achieve? Please explain or clarify.

Item2,
Quote. "Find a person in your area who has the ability and interest in developing the test data to prove the product. Pay them a little... "

My reply; Fair comment, but not as simple as your suggestion.

For many years, I have been involved with trying to please all commercial manufacturers, to improve performance of the coatings which they use so the product works in majority of disciplines.
Commercial casters, are the ones, directly dealing with all shooters they supply.
Tests, that had been conducted with shooters in conjunction with manufacturers, those results I do not get back unless things go wrong, or, I get no feed back at all.
It seems similar situation in the US and elsewhere.

For some reason, when things don't go right, it is always the coatings problem/fault, and I get all the complaints.
When things are going OK, no one wants to share, as they seem to wish to guard such results, and especially the manufacturers as they wish to guard their business.

Item3,
Quote, "Your contribution is the chemistry and production of coatings. Your time is better spent there"
My reply, Again fair comment, but again with some concerns, and I will try to explain.

When I was first approached to produce a slippery bonded coating some 22 years ago, and I relied on what was requested by commercial manufacturers and developed some coatings.

Initial tests were a total disaster, as we could not even hit a target.
Immediately, the responses were "the coating does not work", "coating is no good".."needs to be more slippery"..... been there, done that.

What we in fact discovered, that there was nothing wrong with the coatings and provided exactly what was requested by manufacturers, bonded and very slippery.

The facts were, that we made the stuff far too slippery, so there was no pressure build up inside barrel to provide speed required to shoot out projectile to hit the target.
I was sent up the proverbial garden path with wrong information and wrong requirements, as to what was actually required for the coatings to work successfully.
As there was no data or information to use at all, as starting reference point, from any source, I had to start again from the beginning.

Until I got rid of all the black magic, "make it more slippery", and, "it will go faster" etc etc... I simply abandoned all the wish list posed, and started looking at engineering aspect requirements that the coatings had to cope with..
Thereafter we began to get success.
When manufacturers supplied product that worked using the new coatings, I got no feed back at all good or bad, as I was always one step away from end users.

I am happy to take on board constructive criticisms, but I cannot simply accept the comment "coating did not work" without detailed explanation of why that comment was made.
Now you have some idea and hopefully some understanding, why I am possibly a little sensitive with such statements.

[Ausglock]

Don. Rifle shooters in Australia ( not pistol calibre rifles) don't care about cast bullets for their rifles. They all use jacketed.
I use jacketed in my 308, 223, 25/06. Why? Because I could not be bothered pizzing around with cast bullets.

Now, If the US rifle shooters wish to do some serious testing, then go right ahead.
I will keep casting and coating pistol bullets.

[Ausglock]

New HI-TEK Zombie Slayer Green.
93871

93872

[Gateway Bullets]

I asked Hi-Tek about a zombie bullet. I don't think he believed me the zombie apocalypse is already starting to happen! 93905

[dverna]

Hi-Tek

By "work", with respect to use in rifles, I mean the coating needs to at least equal what we can do with traditional lubes. The coating should do the following:

Allow velocities of at least 1800 fps and preferably 2500fps with minimal leading for 150 shots AND deliver 2 MOA accuracy. (Look at what Larry Gibson accomplished - a 10 shot group well under 1" @ 2600 fps.) As stated previously, we know coatings will prevent leading but that it not enough, They must also demonstrate accuracy. If, after all this time, the need for accuracy has not been understood this should make it clear. No accuracy = it does not work. All the other benefits mean almost nothing. Do not let the needs of pistol shooters establish the performance requirements of cast rifle bullet shooters.

You state "When things are going OK, no one wants to share, as they seem to wish to guard such results, and especially the manufacturers as they wish to guard their business." All the more reason to take control of the range testing. Sitting there, complaining about it, and accepting it does not make any sense. You do want to prove the product don't you?

There are a few Australian rifle bullet casters on this site. Maybe you should reach out to them. They seem to be good guys and knowledgable. They have a much better understanding than your buddy below.


Ausglock,
I expect better from you.

Your words, "Rifle shooters in Australia (not pistol calibre rifles) don't care about cast bullets for their rifles. They all use jacketed. I use jacketed in my 308, 223, 25/06. Why? Because I could not be bothered pizzing around with cast bullets."

Maybe ALL rifle shooters in Australia shoot jacketed but there are few of Australian boys who frequent this forum and shoot cast. I am not aware of any of them speaking up for Hi-Tek coatings or showing results. Why is that?

"Pizzing around with cast bullets" at rifle velocities requires better casting ability, reloading ability and sometimes better lubes than needed to achieve acceptable pistol performance. I should correct that a bit, if you are going to "pizz around" casting for rifles, you probably need a better lube than Hi-Tek if that is all you have - based on current results.

If your advice to Hi-Tek is to let US rifle shooters do the testing and hope for the best it is poor advice. A perusal of this sub-forum will reveal most of the coating work on rifle bullets is gravitating to PC.

Lastly, saying "I will keep casting and coating pistol bullets" does nothing to address the use of coatings at rifle velocities or help get Hi-Tek to the next level. But that is OK - you are a pistol shooter and the stuff works for you. Your interest (and skills?) end there.


Hi-Tek, I have followed this thread from the beginning. This will likely be my last post. My attempts to steer you in the right direction when it comes to rifle perfomance are my honest and considered opinions. I want to see a better way to get rifle bullets down the bore for my own selfish reasons and hope you find the magic formula. If you achieve success, please post it on the thread "Real Accuracy (2 moa or less) with Coated Rifle Bullets at 1800 fps or greater". This thread is 116 pages of mostly pistol results and "atta boys". Your success will be more readily discoverd in a shorter thread that targets rifle shooters than buried here. The other option is to create your own thread "Hi-Tek at rifle velocities". New members and visitors will not wade thorugh 116 or more pages of stuff that repeats itself and is sometimes meaningless. That is the last modicum of advice. Again, good luck!!!

Before others comment, "Why don't you buy some product and test it?" I am lazy. I have no interest in doing the development work for Hi-Tek. I expect Hi-Tek do to do the work and market their product. If I spend any time on coatings it will be PC because there is no company support for it - and at this time it seems to hold more promise. But the reality is I would rather spend my time working up loads and shooting them with proven coatings/lubes - not testing coatings. Once a better way is discovered I will use it, but the journey, with all its detours and false starts, is of little interest to me - only the destination. I am like the little kid in the backseat, "Are we there yet?!"

With apologies to all I have offended in my frustration. The 115th page of "Simple Hi-Tek" simply broke me, "accuracy does not matter".

Don Verna

[Gateway Bullets]

Don,

Not trying to stir the pot here. However, after many conversations with Hi-Tek, he designed or rather created the coating for pistol shooters. Shooters that were aware and very pleased with the pistol results decided to try and push the envelope and see how fast they could go with the coating.

Hi-Tek has never (to my knowledge) advertised this as a pistol or rifle bullet coating. It's a bullet coating plain and simple. What you coat with it is up to you. He has never claimed that it will increase or decrease accuracy of the projectile. Only that it will not effect accuracy of the bullet.

He also simply stated it stops leading and reduces the smoke generated from wax lube.

I think we all know that to shoot MOA you need to run copper jacketed bullets. You want to run sub-moa, at distance, you need to weigh each bullet and group by weight. Then weigh your powder manually. Some guys even group each case by weight, size etc and even have custom tooling made to insure each primer pocket flash hole is centered to to obtain the perfect powder burn.

So I don't think Hi-Tek can be blamed at all for less than 1 or 2 moa.

Just my .02 worth

[Beagle333]

I like that Zombie Slayer green! I may have to give it a try! :-D

[Gateway Bullets]

I like that Zombie Slayer green! I may have to give it a try! :-D

Stand in line..... I'm already bugging him about it! Lol

[Beagle333]

SECONDS!!! :lovebooli

[Ausglock]

Don. no worries.

The number of rifle shooters in OZ that cast could be counted on one hand. it is not a big deal here.
But pistol shooters do use cast and coated. they may not cast themselves but they do shoot them.
Most rifle shooters are lazy, (me included) We like shooting jacketed cause it is easy and quick and clean.

I will be playing with a 308 cast bullet when I get my 300 BLK bolt action. but till then, jacketed for me.

BTW. HI-TEK Joe is old and frail. if he tried to fire even a 222 rifle it would probably break his chalky bones.

The Zombie Slayer Green worked brilliantly today out of the Racegun. 10 shot group at 50 metres for the 38 Supercomp of 1.89" from a sandbag rest. barrel is shiny clean.

Bring forth the apocalypse. Woohoo

[Gateway Bullets]

Trev,

I did find a pic of Joe mixing up some new zombie green coating. Lol 93934

[HI-TEK]

Trev,

I did find a pic of Joe mixing up some new zombie green coating. Lol 93934


How cute is that??? lol
I still have on my slippers as I awakened with a new idea.....and, ....trying to make it...lol..lol

[leadman]

I did some shooting this last Wednesday but my Chrony would not register the velocity of my 22 caliber boolits so saved those tests for another day. I did fire 4 or 5 of my sighter/fouling loads at approx. 2,400 fps with no leading and good groups of around 1 1/2".
I did however have my 1940 Mosin-Nagant along with the 200gr Lyman 314299 sized to .314" (throat is .316",bore .315"). I used a new to me powder, Alliant Power Pro 300 MP. I was shooting at 100 yards with the 2X7 pistol scope in place of the rear sight. I usually shoot 3 shot groups when testing sometthing new like this to give me an idea of what loads to concentrate on. Alliant said there is no data for this powder as it is for magnum pistol. It did work fantastic in my 41 mag SBH Hunter. There is no data for the 41 either. No leading was present in the M-N when cleaned after 40 shots.
I'll post the 2 best groups but bear in mind I am doing this at a slower velocity area which I normally shoot my cast at. This might give others some knowledge that the 300 MP is usable for reduced rifle loads also during this powder shortage.

[Ausglock]

That is brilliant. Joe needs to use that for his avatar.


Trev,

I did find a pic of Joe mixing up some new zombie green coating. Lol 93934

[HI-TEK]

That is brilliant. Joe needs to use that for his avatar.

And, it seems, that someone had taken my photo, but then photo-shopped my glasses, as my ones are larger and are much thicker than in the picture.
I suspect Ausglock, with one of his visits, trying to learn all the secrets. lol lol.
I will make sure that my white coated security team will stop his entry next time...