simple Hi-Tek coating

[btroj]

I take no offense.
Many people are slow to accept new ideas from elsewhere.n the "not invented here syndrome" is very real.

Change doesn't come easy for many.

This coating may not be the answer for everyone but it certainly seems to be gathering a following now.

Bravo to the Aussies, this stuff is a great advancement in shooting cast. I am just happy that you guys found a few places over here that were willing to import it for retail sales.

[zomby woof]

SC

Most of the people who have "picked up" on Hi-Tek are pistol shooters who do not have Stars. I can see why it is attractive for them. A properly adjusted Star does not "goop up" the bullet with excessive lube and we can lube and size over 1000 bullets/hr. Using a regular sizer or pan lubing is slower and there is "goop" to deal with. There is also a benefit for the few who have bullet feeders - but they are very few. For me, there is no driver to initiate a change from the Star. Making trays, doing the mixing, shake and bake (sometimes more than once) and still having to size does not make sense when I can run the Star. And the Star takes up less one square foot of bench space. If I did not have the Star, I would have jumped on board too - at least to try it.

So far, Hi-Tek has not equaled the performance of lubes in rifle bullets. I had high hopes it would prove out but at this point it seems PC has more potential. I have followed the work that popper has done and it looks like he has abandoned trying to get full power loads from his .30/30 using Hi-Tek. I am not saying one mans experience is all I am basing this on - but he has done (or at least posted) the most on rifles.

Still, I keep reading these threads as I realize there is a lot of work still being done and a breakthrough could happen that changes the game. Keeping the fingers crossed!!

Don Verna

Don,
I have a Star and yes there is much more time involved in the coatings verses using the Star. I'm still in the beginning stages of using the coating. The big benefits i see so far are when shooting indoors. There is no smoke, it's amazing the difference. Like I said, still in the early stages.

I am an experimenter at heart. I enjoy reloading, casting and shooting for this reason, lots to experiment with. This HI-TEK is another experiment for me. I see a benefit already.

[Gateway Bullets]

I would like to make it clear to dverna and anyone else who was offended by my post. I in no way consider Americans slow witted, its just that given the gun industry you guys have I would have thought this coating would have been in America years ago. History has shown us , that America is quick to pick up on an idea and run with it till it is perfected in all aspects. I do believe with the feedback and experimentation that is going on now, we will see all problems and short coming with this coating ironed out. In my post I was in fact trying to convey how this site has helped us over here. At the risk of offending Australians, we have been slow to pick up on many great ideas. As I said this site has been great for spreading all new ideas and methods so we can all find what fits our shooting style. I offer my apologies for any offence taken, it was not my intent I assure you.

We aints gots no comon cents hur in da states. Wee aint gots dem smarts like u guys gots! Lol

I live in Missouri also known as the "Show Me State" you have to prove everything to us! That attitude seems to be the norm in the rest of the states. We are skeptical, slow to change, and rarely take anybody's word for anything. We may fight amongst ourselves, but if you cross us....watch out!

I was not offended at all.

[castalott]

I offer my apologies for any offence taken, it was not my intent I assure you.

No worries mate! All the Americans I know desperately LOVE the Australians.

Dale

[high standard 40]

Concerning willingness to change........it was not that very long ago that on this very forum, many were laughing at the idea of "colored" bullets. Comments like "why on earth would anybody want green bullets?" were very common. I stressed in those discussions that it was not about color as such, it was about an alternative to traditional lubes. Times have indeed changed.

[BBQJOE]

I spent a good deal of time this summer with lubes of all types, and finally settled on hi tek. I still get a minor amount of lead in the barrel, but it's a dust as compared to chunks or ribbons.
I didn't get as far in my experiments as I would have liked to.
But here's where I didn't get to. if this stuff actually is closer to a jacket than a lube, is there still a need for a bullet to be 1 to two thousands over? And on top of that, is there any obturation of a FMJ?

[gunoil]

Yea, TC I love the bullet molds with no lube rings. And after magma star sizer they are incredible.

I have a new star and its never seen any famous blue lube yet.


45acp,lyman
9mm, NOE
380acp, custom NOE.

[kweidner]

Spent some time this afternoon with my M1A and ht gold. Boolit was a lee 154.5 gr Loaded over 30gr h335 sized to .311 and gas checked. I did use felix lube too as I was already running them through my sizer on my 450. It is right around 15bhn and runs right at 2000 fps IIRC last time I chronied it. I shot the first 3 and then made a sight adjustment for the last two. Absolutley zero leading and very pleasant to shoot. Need a little more to cycle the action but all good for plinking. Next time I will load 1gr hotter. They cycled in the summer at 30 but it is only around 70 degrees today. here are the loaded rounds. 82465. here is the target.82468. First 3 were little left and i adjusted for the last two. Pretty pumped for 50 yd group with open sights. Here is the recovered bullet. it weighs 92.3 grains and expanded to .495. This should be great for hogs!82470

[kweidner]

I have no idea why my pictures post upside down from my Ipad. Sorry. The folks in Australia should by ok with it though:kidding:

[HI-TEK]

I spent a good deal of time this summer with lubes of all types, and finally settled on hi tek. I still get a minor amount of lead in the barrel, but it's a dust as compared to chunks or ribbons.
I didn't get as far in my experiments as I would have liked to.
But here's where I didn't get to. if this stuff actually is closer to a jacket than a lube, is there still a need for a bullet to be 1 to two thousands over? And on top of that, is there any obturation of a FMJ?

Hi BBQJOE

Thanks for your input.
Just wanted to let you know, that I am working on a much harder coating that should approach Copper Jacketed type hardness.
Early stages, but so far things look reasonable OK.
You are right, with your thoughts about coating behaving more like jacketed ammo.
However, it is also designed to self adjust with heat of powder & friction, and self lubricate as it goes through changes during shooting.
I have some very good people who are really putting the stuff through grueling tests to see how this newer coatings work out.
With all the help and suggestions, it seems at this stage that all is heading in the right direction.
Will keep you posted.

[HI-TEK]

Concerning willingness to change........it was not that very long ago that on this very forum, many were laughing at the idea of "colored" bullets. Comments like "why on earth would anybody want green bullets?" were very common. I stressed in those discussions that it was not about color as such, it was about an alternative to traditional lubes. Times have indeed changed.

Bravo.

Well put.
There seemed to be many knockers and non believers for quite a while. But that is OK. Unfortunately, over many years, all of us have been exposed to "snake Oil" salespersons, until we have all become very sceptical about things.
I am the same way, I have to see it with my own eyes, try it and prove or disprove.
Now it seems to have become the way of the world.

[Ausglock]

I have no idea why my pictures post upside down from my Ipad. Sorry. The folks in Australia should by ok with it though:kidding:

Yeah. must be a northern hemisphere thing. They are the right way up down here in OZ..

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Just kidding. Still upsidedown.
Gunslick will have a blood rush to the head cause he is standing on his head rather than flipping the laptop over... :-)

[popper]

Did some experimenting yesterday cooking the H-T coated. 3x dark green coated, heated for 4 min @ 400, then dropped down to 350 for 10 min, dropped in tap water. Alloy is about 3% Sb/Pb, As added. 80% of hardness compared to sample WD at casting. 2x coated & cooked to 400, air cooled = 60% hardness. Same alloy as I used for 2400 fps PC'd in the 308, same hardness as the sample. I'll check again tomorrow but looks like Leadman's solution does help. The RD 180 I shot before were ~ 2/98 Sb, cooked @ 400 for 1/2 hr, WD and about 25% . I used the PID to measure temp in the oven, took a long time to get to 400F with 70F outside temp. Definitely recommend using a thermo, have to drill a hole in the oven for the probe. Might even rewire the oven for the PID as opening the door to insert the boolits dropped the temp ~ 200F.

edit: Sized and smash tested this morning. No flaking from the smash test. None of the flat base survived the 0.311 push thru sizing without removing the coating at the edge of the base. Lost just a few of the GC (no GC) by sizing. My coating has been mixed in the garage for 3 wks, @ ~ 100F+. Noticed the jug had some tiny particles that would not dissolve. These stuck and got knocked off in the sizer.
Think my solution is to apply 1 coat, size 0.310 and apply 2 more coats. Also recommend bevel base moulds for this, not flat base. Not wanting to waste, I'll wipe the FB with veggie oil & load both with 20 gr. LeverE & some 2400/unique, just for fun. Also plan my first outing with Chrony, will check fps on these.

[Love Life]

100 rds of 45 acp 230 gr H&G 34 loaded over 4.9 gr of Bullseye. I was firing Mozambique (failure to stop) with 2 to the body and one to the face as fast as I could shoot the drills and change mags. Pictures of gun at 14 rds, 49 rds, and 100 rds.

[Love Life]

The rest. I disassembled to show the guts after firing 100 rds. No lube buildup, no flakes from the coating, etc. I then cleaned the pistol before my next test. More to follow...

ETA: The squished bullets are coated bullets that hit my steel target. The traditionally lubed bullet is in the picture for scale.

[Love Life]

These are lubed with Thompson Blue Angel. Watch as it builds up where the booty of the case sits and around the entrance to the chamber...

[Love Life]

Part 2. Watch as the gunk builds up. It also looked like I was shooting black powder. I was shooting the same drills (Mozambique).

[Love Life]

Ewww. Look at the guts!!

[Love Life]

I just finished cleaning the gun after the Thompson (traditional lubed) lubed bullets. It took me easily twice as long as cleaning after coated.

After today, my pistols will never see another traditional lubed bullet.

[gunoil]

hehehehehe!

[Ausglock]

Outstanding effort.
This is just what we have been avoiding here in OZ for years.
I ran my Para single stack 45 on Sunday. I ran 200 coated rounds and then burnt up 200 lubed rounds afterwards to get rid of them.

My gun looked just like yours. Clean after the coated and grunged up badly after the conventional lubed ammo. I was lubing with Jake's Purple Cerasin. I have for sale a Lyman 450 and a RCBS LAM2. I will never be using them again.

[Love Life]

I'll be on the phone with Bayou bullets tomorrow to get me some extreme 2 catalyst and some green coating. Can you say Christmas themed red and green filled magazines?

Speaking of magazines I need to go take them apart to clean them after shooting the traditional lubed bullets...

[Love Life]

Outstanding effort.
This is just what we have been avoiding here in OZ for years.
I ran my Para single stack 45 on Sunday. I ran 200 coated rounds and then burnt up 200 lubed rounds afterwards to get rid of them.

My gun looked just like yours. Clean after the coated and grunged up badly after the conventional lubed ammo. I was lubing with Jake's Purple Cerasin. I have for sale a Lyman 450 and a RCBS LAM2. I will never be using them again.

HAHA!!! I already sold my sizers. I'm light years ahead. This coating is awesome!!

I'll be creating a huge pile of brass tomorrow shooting my last couple hundred loaded with traditional lube.

Oh, and my hands were cleaner after shooting the coating as well...

[gunoil]

Hi-Tek , mix in some nano technology please.

Now you guys, we all like hi tek supercoat, been watching frog lube for year and half now. Dang stuff has found a home here.

Well, how do u know? U finally tried hi-tek.

[Love Life]

Hi-Tek , mix in some nano technology please.

Now you guys, we all like hi tek supercoat, been watching frog lube for year and half now. Dang stuff has found a home here.

Well, how do u know? U finally tried hi-tek.

Huh!?

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek , mix in some nano technology please.

Now you guys, we all like hi tek supercoat, been watching frog lube for year and half now. Dang stuff has found a home here.

Well, how do u know? U finally tried hi-tek.

Hi Gun oil.
Thanks for your tick of approval.
I am wondering what nano technology you wish me to include?
I do have several nano materials that are awesome, but I am reluctant to use them for this application, as they are awfully expensive and unless we get exceptional benefits, I find it hard to justify using them.

Regards to you now trying the coating, I am pleased, that you have been cautious and was asking many questions.
That is best way to go.
Users must be assured that what they are expecting is what they actually get.
Please keep posting

[swheeler]

huh, huh?

[popper]

Yup, coating works great in pistol. Clean, accurate & low smoke.

[Love Life]

I've been using it for over a month now and I love it. I just wanted to post the differences for all to see. Pictures say it all.

Gunoil-I still have no idea what you said in that post.

[frankenfab]

Termite-like metal eating nano-bot coated boolits?



Neat reports guys. Hmmmmmmmmmm....maybe I need to try this stuff. I got so many irons in the fire right now.

[Ausglock]

Huh!?

Gunslick should stop drinking the Coating.........:kidding:

[Gremlin460]

Picked up the oven I won on ebay
paid Hi-Tek for the coating
manufactured 4 oven trays
have 2 2400x600 mesh drying sheets waiting for a frame.
4900 boolits in containers
looking for a sizer for 357 to size them with...
got buckets and containers...

Anything else I need??


OH and I hear the MiHec molds are now ready and invoices going out!!

[Ausglock]

Anything else I need??

An oven thermometer.
Welders gloves.
white paper towel for the wipe test.
A lump hammer and a piece of rail line for the smash test.

And remember to take your time and do not rush.

[Gremlin460]

An oven thermometer.
Welders gloves.
white paper towel for the wipe test.
A lump hammer and a piece of rail line for the smash test.

And remember to take your time and do not rush.

Oven Thermo is the only thing I dont have, will visit the JayCar website see what I can scrounge up.

update Jaycar sell these for $10


LCD Probe Thermometer

Multi-purpose digital thermometer for the kitchen, lab, factory, workshop or barbeque. It measures in Celsius and Fahrenheit and fits in a pocket.

• Pocket clip
• Stainless steel probe
• Temperature range: -50°C - 300°C, -58°F - 572°F
• Accuracy: ±1°C
• Length: 150mm

[Gremlin460]

They also sell these for $15 which I might grab aswell for the casting pot...


K Type Thermocouple

This plug in Thermocouple Probe allows you to measure external temperature readings on DMMs. Will measure temperatures from below minus 50°C to over 1200°C. Actual range depends on the DMM it is used with. Suitable for use in gas and liquid, both with very good accuracy. -40°C to 750°C accuracy 2.5°C or 0.75°C of temperature.

[dverna]

SC

I did want to reach out to you about my comments. Like you, I wonder why something that has gained such acceptance in Australia has been slow to develop here in the US where we do so much more shooting.

I do not think for a minute that the "not invented here" syndrome has any affect. Like another poster said Americans genuinely like Aussies! In my opinion, most shooters (especially cast bullet shooters) are the cheapest people around and competitive shooters are the most demanding. So when a product comes along that reduces cost and improves performance - it will "fly off the shelves". So what happened with Hi-Tek?

If I recall correctly, at the early stages of its introduction to the US there was a supply problem. Well, that will kill a product. The only other issue that causes a product to "fail" is lack of a marketing effort. But, if supply cannot meet demand, a marketing effort is useless and will cause customer problems if product is unavailable.

In fairness to the manufacturer, none of us know how capital intensive or practical it is to ramp up production to meet the US market. The SSAA (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia) has about 150,000 members - The NRA about 5,000,000. If market size is relative the membership of these organizations our market is 30 times the size. I guess the old saying applies - "Be careful what you wish for".

Outside of this forum, I have not seen any press on H-Tek. It is a mystery to most shooters. I think there is only one commercial caster using it.

I am trying to answer (and understand) why. The good news is that there are pistol shooters on this site that have embraced it and they will be great proponents as they tell others of their success. That will grow the market and the good news for Hi-Tek is that this market is "easy". They have a known product that is currently in production. If I was them, I would ignore the rifle shooters, for the time being, or at least put them on the second shelf, and focus on producing for the pistol bullet market. It is HUGE and will provide the capital to do other things. This is a hard criticism but a valid one. If Hi-Tek cannot market a known product that seems to be so good, to the US cast pistol bullet market, it is NOT the fault of the shooters and casters in the US.

[Love Life]

dverna-I believe you are spot on.

[popper]

dverna - I disagree. Aussie club/match shooters have been using it, obviously not the same market as hunter/recreational shooters. There was an import problem getting the stuff here. Other forums talk about various coatings. Coating didn't show up on this forum until early summer. Why haven't US manufacturers gotten into it? Too many of us buying cheap j-word stuff, too much profit from j-word stuff. Why is most powder NOT made in the US? Obviously there are more pistol shooters than rifle cause you can't carry a rifle in your pocket. BUT - most shoot j-word. Joe has cash flow from pistol, now is the time to do rifle - or someone else will. Strike when the iron is hot so to speak.

[high standard 40]

dverna - I disagree. Aussie club/match shooters have been using it, obviously not the same market as hunter/recreational shooters. There was an import problem getting the stuff here. Other forums talk about various coatings. Coating didn't show up on this forum until early summer. Why haven't US manufacturers gotten into it? Too many of us buying cheap j-word stuff, too much profit from j-word stuff. Why is most powder NOT made in the US? Obviously there are more pistol shooters than rifle cause you can't carry a rifle in your pocket. BUT - most shoot j-word. Joe has cash flow from pistol, now is the time to do rifle - or someone else will. Strike when the iron is hot so to speak.

Actually, discussion started here as early as late 2009.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?69150-What-is-this-Lube&highlight=bayou+bullet

[Stephen Cohen]

I believe you last 4 guys have all made some valid points, many of which only Hi-Tek can answer. I have no doubt that the feed back and work done by members on this site will see this coating become the product we all wish for. The work and feed back being done by Ausglock and others has opened my eyes and Im from Australia. As soon as I am able to move around again, I will be into it myself, I have all the coating and gear, just need a bit more mobility. I think Hi-Tek hit it on the head when he said we have all seen snake oil salesmen, so being sceptical is understandable.

[Ausglock]

Don.
I was saying this to HI_TEK only last night. The US is a huge handgun bullet market compared to rifle.
And is 1000000 time larger than the OZ market.

So he better get a boat load of asylum seekers in his factory producing coating. Cause this is going to bigger than Ben Hur.

I had a play with the natural, uncoloured coating last night. it bakes clearer than the first natural. I added just a hint of red to it and coated a handfull of 9mm bullets. Going to bake them tonight and see if they will go pink.
Watch this space....

[popper]

HS40 - corect, 1st H-T comment was 2013, some were investigating the sandstrom products back then. Ausglock, IMHO, the cast/caster market here isn't that big until the last year. I go to the ranges frequently (not on weekends) and 99% (rifle and pistol) are shooting j-word and lots of it. If quick, I can pick up ~200 each of 40,9,45, 20 or so 06, 308, 243 just by asking. None of it is cast shooter's brass. The market is increasing and should increase more as coating gets better and simpler for the average joe to do.

[Ausglock]

There is resistance from commercial casters here in OZ for home casters to have access to the supercoat coating. The commercial casters feel that the market here is too small and they will loose business if every man and his dog is coating their own.

[Love Life]

They are right. I won't spend $100 on coated bullets when I can cast and coat my own for significantly less. I did buy some FMJ recently though...

[HI-TEK]

Hi dverna

Thank you for your constructive and well constructed blog.

I would like to provide answers about your raised matters as detailed below.

1. The coatings were offered to US manufacturers some 10 years ago. None were interested.
Over years, US competition shooters who visited here, took back coated projectiles made here.
None were interested to seek out the coatings or to advise US manufacturers about availability.

All Australian manufacturers, all are at full capacity, and yet having abundant supply of coating available for them to use, there are still many shooters, that wish to buy coating to do their own, as not all projectiles are commercially manufactured.
Also, despite manufacturers being able to access as much coating as they wish, they have not been able to totally cover all market segments.

2. Regarding to your reference "what happened to Hi-Tek",
Manufacture and supply of coatings is not the problem. It is a simple case of someone or many, spending the money to buy adequate stocks, arrange distribution, so the US market has adequate access & supply.
The same folk, also would be required to do the advertising and retail distributions in the US, so that all who wanted product would readily be able to get it.

3. Regarding your reference to "ramp up output", we have no problem with supply of volumes.
What is needed is proper forecasting, placing of regular orders for us to ship product, US local distribution established, and adequate buffer stock kept in US, to ensure that there is always stock available for US consumers.

4. With your reference to your not seeing any details on other forums, until I was invited to join this one, to contribute, I was not even aware such forums existed, as I was not involved with any gun clubs, or shooting, as I do not own any guns.

Just a point of order, after I was invited by blog members to join this forum, and to advise shooters about the coatings, within two weeks, I was banned from the site by persons complaining to the administrators.
After my joining and supplying information, I was also attacked by many, who decided that it was their right to try and discredit me, and then, tried to obtain and publish my alleged formulations.

In respective to forum matters, I believe, that for years, many were discussing the coated projectiles that they were using, and in various forums.

My dealings has been with cast alloy manufacturers, and, I had no direct contact nor dealings with shooters, or retail outlets to promote coatings.

Manufacturers supplying coated projectiles, supplied to those outlets, and manufacturers were not advising as to where they were buying their coatings.
For various reasons, that scenario has been reversed, and, it is now a pre-requisite, that suppliers & manufacturers all advise what they are using.

5. In regards to your reference to US having one manufacturers using product is not correct.
Currently, there are 4 manufacturers using product, and there are several high volume manufacturers whohave tried the products, and are already in process to change from wax and other lube systems to the Hi-Tek coatings.
Growth of availability of coated projectiles, and coating availability, would be greatly escalating in the near future.

5. To a certain extent, I agree to your statement about marketing matters.
However, we are not the one, who is doing the marketing in the US.
No one is placing any blame or faults on shooters.

The demand has been, from all manufacturers/shooters, is to have a product, that works in all disciplines.
Over many years, we have co-operated to provide on going development, of suitable products that would satisfy demands of shooters.

The rifle ammo business in Australia, is not high in comparison to handgun use.
Commercial manufacturers all seemed to target only the high volume sales areas, and appeared to ignore rifle shooters requirements.
Having said that, I am aware, that ammo was produced and used by locals for rifles, had been coated with the Hi-Tek coatings, however, volume sales were negligible.

It is hoped, that I have provided adequate clarification to your various raised matters.

[leadman]

popper, you do not need to go up to 400 degrees to get the coating to cure. I go up to 375 degrees, measured with a DVOM with a thermocouple in the oven. When it hits 375 I turn the oven down to 325 and the temperature will continue to climb a little, usually to 380, then slowly goes down to 325 degrees.
All boolits coated and cured this way have passed the wipe, smash, and shooting tests. The heat treated linotype that was 35 bhn retained the bhn of 32.

I do sell cast and have gotten many requests for boolits for the 223 and 308 for the guys shooting 3 gun so there is a market for it if the ammo can be produced with enough accuracy to be competive. I have some thoughts of adding some moly to the top coat and/or using a filler like Cream of Wheat, plasitc fillers, or Puff-Lon to see what happens. I know poly-fil would probably help but it is slow to add to a case while the other fillers can be dispensed with a powder measure.
A harder coating may help also if it will "move" the pressure range up in which the alloy can operate. The alloy to me seems to be the obstacle to overcome. Gas checks, the HT coating, and heat treating all seem to have an effect of allowing a higher velocity that what the alloy can withstand alone.

[Gateway Bullets]

dverna-I believe you are spot on.

Dverna,

I am also a commercial caster that uses and sells Hi-Tek coatings. If you are in need if product let me know as I have coating in stock. Should be receiving another shipment in the next week..... It's sitting on the dock in LA.

Joe is a wonderful guy to work with and his products speak for themselves.

Shoot me an email at gatewaybullets@yahoo.com

[popper]

Leadman. I have more experimentation to do on the curing. I'm looking for a solution of MOA with no leading at full loads, normal rifle alloy. PC comes close, I'd be happy if HiTek could, somewhAt simpler process. Casters will have to find a solution to the annealed alloy problem.

[leadman]

popper, I am going to load up some more of my previous loads for testing with running a brush and then a dry patch thru the bore after every shot. I want to see if the fouling left in the bore that as you know is very hard is causing any of the accuracy issues. This is also my thought on a filler as they tend to clean the bore also. Figure if I start with the heat treated lino and it works I can work the alloy backwards and see if there is a point of inaccuracy once again.
I want to explore the different powders also as I did notice a difference for the better when I had to switch from IMR4350 to RL17. but can only change one thing at a time or else I will not know which change caused the change in accuracy.

[kweidner]

Had good success in a mold I haven't tried yet this AM. It's a Lee 175 TC sized .4013 coated 3x gold loaded over 4.1 gr Tite Group. Here is a whole magazine offhand at 10yds. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/25/syqupagu.jpg. Wow has the word that came to mind. I will have to chrony these next.

[Ausglock]

I love that bullet out of the Glock 35.
2 coats of red copper.

[Mike Hughes]

This dang Hi Tek coating is working so good, it has caused me to order a Yankee Hill 9mm AR. I have been shooting a mix of Lee 125gr and Mihec 125gr with 4.2 gr of Unique through my S&W M&P 9mm. Each time out, I shoot 200 to 300 rounds. When I get home, I run 1 dry patch through to remove unburnt powder, look through magnifier with bore light shining through other end, and barrel is completely clean every time. I have put at least 1500 rounds through it, without a trace of leading. Barrel still looks brand new.
I better get busy casting, coating, and loading, the AR will have a hefty appetite. Also ordered 6 extra 32 rd mags
82789

[gunoil]

Green Meanies!

i like em, 380's/no lube groove/108gr/makarov nose/flat base/NOE blank mold from "Nite Al"/CNC'ed local.

There just like brass on the side's after a run thru .355 in the Magma Star Sizer.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/null_zps646958cb.jpg






Micro desert eagle, Ruger LCP, Taurus LCP

[HI-TEK]

Green Meanies!

i like em, 380's/no lube groove/108gr/makarov nose/flat base/NOE blank mold from "Nite Al"/CNC'ed local.

There just like brass on the side's after a run thru .355 in the Magma Star Sizer.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/null_zps646958cb.jpg
Micro desert eagle, Ruger LCP, Taurus LCP

I hope that you did not infringe Ausglock patent name Green Zombie...lol lol.
They look great, and, how they go when being shot, and, what did you find with accuracy and cleanliness?

[Shotgundrums]

Only red lol

[Ausglock]

the green looks a bit thin to me.
What is your mix? 5-1-7???

[gunoil]

5-1-10

Taurus tcp/738

6 yards 2" or better/excellent

Maybe red next time.

clean barrels and addictive.

Cleaner barrels now that i use frog lube (4 oz & dirt cheap), under 12$ to the door.

Iam sold on green. U think 5-1-7?

[Ausglock]

yep......

[Mike Hughes]

Cleaner barrels now that i use frog lube (4 oz & dirt cheap), under 12$ to the door.



What is frog lube?

[Ausglock]

What is frog lube?

probably the best smelling gun lube on the planet. And it works great too.
Google is your friend.

[Gremlin460]

No delivery today :(..
I have everything that you suggested Trev...
only 2 things I am not 100% on is qty of premix to use for first coating.
From what I glean from the posts is I should start with 200 in a bucket and coat them in batches of 200.
Also acetone prewash is helpfull. to remove any contaminants.
I have currently 5k 132gn LRN ready for coating.
Is there a ratio coating per qty of casts?.

[Ausglock]

I do not pre-wash.

20ml per 1000 is the norm.

I use about 7mls per 300 9mm with a 5-1-7 mix.
what mold you using?

[Gremlin460]

I have a lee 6cav 125gn mold RN, they turn out 132.8 due to me adding a little pure into the mix

There is a MiHec 125gn HP 4 cav in transit.. be happy when that arrives if customs dont steal it.

[Gremlin460]

I melted 355kg of WW, turned out 310 odd muffins, I have 3:1 ratio of Clipon ww to Stick on..

So when I go casting I drop 3 clipons into the pot and 1 stick on, this way I can keep a basic mixture for the whole stash.
I letter stamp the muffins so if I trip over them I can tell what they are by the lettering.


http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/IMAG0214_zps3dece6de.jpg.html?sort=2&o=16#/user/Gremlin460/media/IMAG0217_zps64ba3d3b.jpg.html?sort=2&o=18&_suid=1380196608446035925458455842535

[Balta]

355 kg of WW:) Mann i wish you ar closer to me.Wi coud be a good friends :) :drinks:
I melted 355kg of WW, turned out 310 odd muffins, I have 3:1 ratio of Clipon ww to Stick on..

So when I go casting I drop 3 clipons into the pot and 1 stick on, this way I can keep a basic mixture for the whole stash.
I letter stamp the muffins so if I trip over them I can tell what they are by the lettering.


http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/IMAG0214_zps3dece6de.jpg.html?sort=2&o=16#/user/Gremlin460/media/IMAG0217_zps64ba3d3b.jpg.html?sort=2&o=18&_suid=1380196608446035925458455842535

[popper]

Ok, 30/30 today with dark green H-T @ 50, off bags. 170 sans GC, 20 gr leverE, 1300 fps, not MOA yet. 180 gr FB 13 gr 2400 ~1400 fps, no filler. Bore looks shiny clean.
82868
1 shoot off as scope was x3, rest at x9. Saw that ~1" drop after a few rounds, something with the rifle (336), very consistent over the last year. 2 rnds by 'chrony' were no GC & 2400, fired through chrony, hand held. Looks like no GC is a winner. And I didn't hit the chrony on my first outing.
edit: top 2 , then 2 right, 1 top white, then 5 dropped to bottom, aimed at top of white, another 5. Compensating for the offset, that's ~2 MOA. Still have work to do.

[Ausglock]

Grem. You really need a Lee hardness tester if you are mixing your own alloy.
I found 3ww to 1 pure was OK for 45, but too soft for 9mm or 38 Super. hardness was about 8 BHN air cooled.
I went 5 ww to 1 pure and it worked fine in 9mm and it went 10 BHN.

[Gremlin460]

Might get one from QLD Gun Exch next time I swing past there, I WD all my casts into iced water.
If you PM me a addy, I will box 50 or so and shoot (lol) them down to you for your opinion.

I take it your just over the boarder on Nth NSW? according to your post info.

I mix 3:1 yeah, not sure that stick ons are really "pure" but point taken.

[Ausglock]

get onto Titan reloading in the US. I get all my Lee stuff from them. Far cheaper than buying in OZ.

[Lizard333]

Frog lube ain't cheap, but cheap lube ain't good. I use it exclusively in all my pistols and AR's. Great stuff.

[Gremlin460]

I just dug out one of the range fired rounds I found that was in good shape.

I paired it base to base with one of my casts and put it in the vice, the range (commercial) round deformed much faster and at least 40% more than my cast.
Not very scientific I know, however an accurate test to show that what the club is issuing the shooters with is much, much more malleable than what I have cast.

So I breathe a bit easier, no need to have visions of re-melting 5k of boolits!.

[Mike Hughes]

I just dug out one of the range fired rounds I found that was in good shape.

I paired it base to base with one of my casts and put it in the vice, the range (commercial) round deformed much faster and at least 40% more than my cast.
Not very scientific I know, however an accurate test to show that what the club is issuing the shooters with is much, much more malleable than what I have cast.

So I breathe a bit easier, no need to have visions of re-melting 5k of boolits!.

The boolits will get soft after you bake them. 14 bhn ends up being about 8 bhn. They still work great for 9mm with a lite load. I'm using 4.2 gr of Unique and get zero leading. Seems like they were around 1050 fps out of a S&W M&P 9mm

[Mike Hughes]

I have a lee 6cav 125gn mold RN, they turn out 132.8 due to me adding a little pure into the mix

There is a MiHec 125gn HP 4 cav in transit.. be happy when that arrives if customs dont steal it.
These are the same 2 molds that I use, both are excellent!

[nighthunter]

I had some good success with the 218 Bee today using the 225107 sized .224. 3 coats of the Red/Copper and NO gas check.828908289182892
Groups were fired at 50 yards. The recovered bullets are from the 9.5 grain load estimated velocity is 2300 fps. I wondered about the H-T failing without the gas check but the recovered bullets show the lube survived just fine. With 3 coats of the H-T the gas check shank is nearly filled and sizes to almost a flat base. The recovered bullets also show pretty good expansion without shedding weight. I'm looking for a load for fox and coon that will kill quickly and still be fur friendly. I think I'm part way there. No leading but there was a little extra powder fouling or something similar.

[gunoil]

I bought frog lube (4 oz) to the door for 11.95$. Its the paste, last along time.

[Gremlin460]

Is there a problem in dropping the HT coated into ice water straight from the oven? even between coats?

Obviously need to be dry before the 2nd coating, but with 37c days outside and queensland sun that's not really a problem

[Ausglock]

Is there a problem in dropping the HT coated into ice water straight from the oven? even between coats?

Obviously need to be dry before the 2nd coating, but with 37c days outside and queensland sun that's not really a problem

Never needed to try it.

[popper]

even between coats? I've done it after the final coating, no problem. I don't know if there is any advantage to doing it between coats other than to try to speed up the process. My concern would be getting minerals from the water and dust from outside between coats, causing the next coat to not stick well.

[leadman]

I tried it and measured hardness before and after. It did not harden the boolits like water quenching from the mold or heat treating. I have found that using heat treated linotype and only doing 2 coats of Red Copper and watching the temperature gauge so when it hits 375 degrees turn down the heat to 325 to finish the baking, then I was able to maintain 32 BHN from the original 35 BHN.
Trying to maintain the hardness gained by water quenching then baking has not worked for me at all. I mix the components of my alloy to the hardness I want and then it will maintain that hardness thru the baking process.
I am going to try to find a way to maintain the water quenched hardness as linotype or antimony costs money and I would rather not spend it for them.
So by all means play with it and keep us posted.

[Gateway Bullets]

I showed this video to Hi-Tek and he asked if I would post it. Its a heat test I did with the red copper vs a standard wax lubed bullet.


http://youtu.be/icq4UAvXyNY

[HI-TEK]

I showed this video to Hi-Tek and he asked if I would post it. Its a heat test I did with the red copper vs a standard wax lubed bullet.


http://youtu.be/icq4UAvXyNY

Well,
It is a very dramatic and confrontational test.
It certainly seems to confirm, that coating does not melt, resists burning, and reflects heat even when heat from torch and burning wax is directly heating coated projectile.
These physical attributes, are some, but not all the pre-requisites for the materials working in the application.
Thank you for your dramatic test video.

[Ausglock]

and that is why I'm using supercoat.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Sometime back someone asked about effect of coating on accuracy. Using a ransom rest I tested 2 loads in my 5" bullseye pistol.
I did this informal test a few days ago.

.45 200 gr Magma SWC over 3.9 grs of bullseye with wax type lube produced a 2.40" 10 shot group 50 yds.
.45 200 gr Magma SWC over 3.9 gr bullseye with green hi-tek produced 1.8" in 10 shot group at 50 yds.

Barrel was cleaned before each string and fouled with a 7 shots of the ammo to be used prior to shooting for group.

83201
83202

[dverna]

Sometime back someone asked about effect of coating on accuracy. Using a ransom rest I tested 2 loads in my 5" bullseye pistol.
I did this informal test a few days ago.

.45 200 gr Magma SWC over 3.9 grs of bullseye with wax type lube produced a 2.40" 10 shot group 50 yds.
.45 200 gr Magma SWC over 3.9 gr bullseye with green hi-tek produced 1.8" in 10 shot group at 50 yds.

Barrel was cleaned before each string and fouled with a 7 shots of the ammo to be used prior to shooting for group.

I'll post pics when I can figure out how.

Now that means something!!! Thank you SR for doing your test. I know one group does not tell the whole story, but this sure beats hand held groups at 10 yards. It will be interesting to see what the groups look like.



Don Verna

[Ausglock]

I agree with Don. Very good test data.
I too look forward to the photos..

[atygrit]

83100

I'm not having good luck with the black so far. These have two coats of the black and I'm either having leading or the black coating is coming off in the barrel. They did pass the acetone and smash test. I ran a bore snake down the barrel at the range and haven't had a chance to clean the gun yet. I saw black streaks from the beginning to the end of the barrel. Accuracy was great at 7 yards, but I have a lot of residue after 50 rounds.

[Ausglock]

What gun? Are they the correct size?
What alloy?

Thanks.

[leadman]

Hard to tell from the pictures but the black looks kinda thick. I put the Red Copper on too thick when I first started and found it did not cook all the way in 10 minutes.
I have 3 ovens now, one digital convection oven, one convection oven with dial controls, and a toaster oven that I hook my PID up to. I use a DVOM with a thermocouple to read the temperature in the dial control convection oven. I have found that the dial control is ok when first using it but after 3 or 4 racks in it it goes all to heck so I watch the DVOM and turn the dial when needed.
The toaster oven was doing the same thing before the PID.
If you do not have a thermometer that is accurate and responds quickly this could be your problem. I bought my DVOM when I was on a Wyoming antelope hunt several years ago from Walmart for around $25.00 and it was worth every penny. Has many of the same functions as the high dollar ones but I am sure it is not as durable.

I ordered parts to assemble 2 more PID units last night so this will make it easier for me to cook my boolits properly.

I did get some of the Gold coating along with some more Red Copper from Donnie recently. Seems like the Gold does cover a little easier and does not add as much to the diameter of the boolit with each coating.

[bstone5]

I got some of the Gold coating from Donnie a few months back.

I have coated a lot of cast bullets for the 9 mm and 380 auto with the coating.

I put the coating on too thick the first time. The color had some dark semi red spots in the lube groves with the coating too thick.

It seems to work best with two very thin coats on the smaller bullets.

I cook them a little longer to make sure the coating completely hard.

The bullets have shot well without any leading.

They smell a little like sawing plastic when shot if they are not cook enough.

[popper]

smell a little like sawing plastic when shot if they are not cook enough. Good report Bstone5, I noticed the smell on my first batches of 40 & 9 but they had passed the smash/wipe tests. Cooking longer now and don't notice that smell. Leadman - remember to only connect the PID to the heater part - motors don't like the control.

[HI-TEK]

83100

I'm not having good luck with the black so far. These have two coats of the black and I'm either having leading or the black coating is coming off in the barrel. They did pass the acetone and smash test. I ran a bore snake down the barrel at the range and haven't had a chance to clean the gun yet. I saw black streaks from the beginning to the end of the barrel. Accuracy was great at 7 yards, but I have a lot of residue after 50 rounds.

Just a quick observation and comment.
The coating seems much too thickly applied.
If you are having streaking problems the coating is not fully cured at correct temperatures.
Please keep in mind, that coating is a good reflector of heat, and when baking the coating slows heat transfer to alloy. The thicker the coating the longer it takes to get the lot up to correct curing conditions.
Please try to use much thinner coatings, allow to dry thoroughly, and then bake at 200 for 10 minutes.
Don't overload your oven with coated projectiles.
Please advise how you went with suggestions.

[Shotgundrums]

Just a quick observation and comment.
The coating seems much too thickly applied.
If you are having streaking problems the coating is not fully cured at correct temperatures.
Please keep in mind, that coating is a good reflector of heat, and when baking the coating slows heat transfer to alloy. The thicker the coating the longer it takes to get the lot up to correct curing conditions.
Please try to use much thinner coatings, allow to dry thoroughly, and then bake at 200 for 10 minutes.
Don't overload your oven with coated projectiles.
Please advise how you went with suggestions.

So are we baking up to 392F (200) now for 10 mins? Or, is that only for black?
Oh, and I too have noticed the smell when firing. Smells like a grinding wheel. Is that normal? Previous post said may be due to undercooked coating.

[The Boar Buster]

Alright I have read and re read this thread so tonight I finally gave this stuff a shot. I got the red copper a few weeks ago and just started casting.
My first batch of bullets didn't come out perfect but they are not too bad. My mix was 5 1 7 and I cooked the bullets at 375 to 400 for 10 minutes. Then I did the acetone and smash test and they passed both. The only problem is the little specs of dirt or something that stuck to my bullets. I do not think they will hurt accuracy or anything, but they do look funny. The mold is an Accurate 34-310B for my 338 Spetre. This is a wildcat round kinda like the 300 BO. These will be shot out of an AR at about 1050 fps. Max pressure for the 338 Spectre is 37,000. My alloy is a 50/50 mix of COWW and range scrap.
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/todd458/2013-09-30181349_zpsdfbf5c75.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/todd458/media/2013-09-30181349_zpsdfbf5c75.jpg.html)

[hawgfan]

I am having the same problem as ATYGRIT. I loaded up about 50 for my 40 sw, when I shot them yesterday, I noticed that my barrel was real dirty. I cleaned my barrel and the green flakes came out of it. I am using COWW, with 5.5 gn IMR 800x. I shot one round into the ground and dug it up, all of the coating was gone on the sides but there wasn't any leading that I could tell. I coated the boolit once then baked for 10 minutes at 375. I then took them out of the oven and let them cool completely before recoating them and baking again. They passed the wipe and smash test. I guess I am wondering if the coating is suppose to stay on at all times or will it come off once fired. As long as I don't get leading, I really don't care what the boolits look like after I fire them. If anybody has any advise, please let me know. I will upload a pic of the fired boolit I recovered and maybe that will give someone a clue. Thanks

[Ausglock]

Boar buster.
Looks good, But I thing you are putting on too much. I can see dried blobs of coating on your bullets.
It is better to have 3 thin coats than 2 thick coats. The "dirt" is probably bubbling caused by trapped moisture under the coating prior to baking.

Hawgfan. are you using a Lee carbide FC die when loading your 40 rounds? I did and it caused problems like what you are having. I got rid of it and use a Dillon crimp die and no more 40 problems at all.

I have standardised on 200Deg C for 10 minutes for all my coating. Except for the reds, they need 200deg C for 12 minutes to prevent wipeoff.
The black looks too thick. As Gunslick has stated. it is a stain, not a paint. a little goes a long way....

[HI-TEK]

So are we baking up to 392F (200) now for 10 mins? Or, is that only for black?
Oh, and I too have noticed the smell when firing. Smells like a grinding wheel. Is that normal? Previous post said may be due to undercooked coating.


My observations are to date, that coatings seem to being applied much too thick.
First coat should be almost a stain, and as long as majority of alloy is covered, this provides the key bond between alloy and coating.
Such a stain first coat, will dry much quicker, and cooking will be OK (no blisters), as long as first coat is totally dry. Looks are not that good, but that is not a problem at all.
Once first coat passes tests, only then apply second coat, and allow to dry thoroughly again.
People who use thicker coating will experience much longer baking requirements,( or, require higher temperatures), as the heat cannot pass through the coating into the alloy, (heat shielding effect) and correct cure cannot be done correctly as alloy is much colder than coating on the outside.
Any odours when shooting, is a tell tale sign, that coating is not fully cured, and expect Leading as coating has not totally bonded to alloy.
Fully cured coatings should not produce any smells when fired and it will not streak up inside barrel as it will not melt.
Uncured coatings will streak barrels, cause Leading, and have smell like burning plastic.

[Shotgundrums]

My observations are to date, that coatings seem to being applied much too thick.
First coat should be almost a stain, and as long as majority of alloy is covered, this provides the key bond between alloy and coating.
Such a stain first coat, will dry much quicker, and cooking will be OK (no blisters), as long as first coat is totally dry. Looks are not that good, but that is not a problem at all.
Once first coat passes tests, only then apply second coat, and allow to dry thoroughly again.
People who use thicker coating will experience much longer baking requirements,( or, require higher temperatures), as the heat cannot pass through the coating into the alloy, (heat shielding effect) and correct cure cannot be done correctly as alloy is much colder than coating on the outside.
Any odours when shooting, is a tell tale sign, that coating is not fully cured, and expect Leading as coating has not totally bonded to alloy.
Fully cured coatings should not produce any smells when fired and it will not streak up inside barrel as it will not melt.
Uncured coatings will streak barrels, cause Leading, and have smell like burning plastic.

Well ok. Say I have a pile of suspected under cured bullets. Could I throw them back into the oven for 10 mins to complete it?

[HI-TEK]

Well ok. Say I have a pile of suspected under cured bullets. Could I throw them back into the oven for 10 mins to complete it?

I would do a handful first to get an idea how they will re-bake.
Try the handful for another 10 minutes at between 380 to 390F. Then load some up and try them.
Previously, have you sized the coated projectiles after coating them?

[Shotgundrums]

I would do a handful first to get an idea how they will re-bake.
Try the handful for another 10 minutes at between 380 to 390F. Then load some up and try them.
Previously, have you sized the coated projectiles after coating them?

Yes I've sized them. The coating didn't come off. But a few will have a tiny chip here and there. I have had some leading in my barrels. Nothing crazy but some. Bullets fit, no exaggerated crimp...

[HI-TEK]

Yes I've sized them. The coating didn't come off. But a few will have a tiny chip here and there. I have had some leading in my barrels. Nothing crazy but some. Bullets fit, no exaggerated crimp...

Did you have to apply a lot of pressure when sizing?
The fully cured coating is very tough, especially if too thick, and, sizing becomes difficult or hard to push trough.
I try to give a comparison example about flexibility. If you get a sheet of glass 1/4 inch thick, and you try to bend/flex, it shatters, but, making that same glass into very thin fibers, it is very flexible and can be shaped.
You get comparable effects with well cured thick coating and thin coatings, as you get with glass.
The coatings are not as hard as glass, but the comparison principle is the same.
Did you see the heat test done on previous page on this blog?
It gives you an idea of just how the coatings protect the alloy from heat transfer.
Thicker coating also acts more this way, and prevents heat from getting alloy up to correct temperatures.
So, the rule of application is thin thin thin coats, two or 3 times, and you use less coating overall and get far better results all around.

[Shotgundrums]

Did you have to apply a lot of pressure when sizing?
The fully cured coating is very tough, especially if too thick, and, sizing becomes difficult or hard to push trough.
I try to give a comparison example about flexibility. If you get a sheet of glass 1/4 inch thick, and you try to bend/flex, it shatters, but, making that same glass into very thin fibers, it is very flexible and can be shaped.
You get comparable effects with well cured thick coating and thin coatings, as you get with glass.
The coatings are not as hard as glass, but the comparison principle is the same.
Did you see the heat test done on previous page on this blog?
It gives you an idea of just how the coatings protect the alloy from heat transfer.
Thicker coating also acts more this way, and prevents heat from getting alloy up to correct temperatures.
So, the rule of application is thin thin thin coats, two or 3 times, and you use less coating overall and get far better results all around.

Yeah I've switched to 5:1:7-5:1:8. Seems to work better for thin coats. Sizing the bullets hasn't been hard. I know I'm darn close. The bullets hardly even turn blue until they start drying when tumbling. I'm making small increases in temp and time........ Trevor and others have helped me immensely. Next ill go up to 380-385 for 10.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Pics up


Sometime back someone asked about effect of coating on accuracy. Using a ransom rest I tested 2 loads in my 5" bullseye pistol.
I did this informal test a few days ago.

.45 200 gr Magma SWC over 3.9 grs of bullseye with wax type lube produced a 2.40" 10 shot group 50 yds.
.45 200 gr Magma SWC over 3.9 gr bullseye with green hi-tek produced 1.8" in 10 shot group at 50 yds.

Barrel was cleaned before each string and fouled with a 7 shots of the ammo to be used prior to shooting for group.

83201
83202

[dverna]

Pics up

SR

Any idea if the one shot out of the vertical group with the Bayou bullets was the first shot in the string?

Good groups.

Don Verna

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

It was indeed. I think the pistol settled in the rest after the first shot.
I have some more from a .38 caliber Bianchi revolver with the 138 wadcutter I make.
I will try to get those up as well.

[DirtyDusty]

Does the coating work well for .44 mag revolvers at max velocities, or would a conventional lube be better?

[popper]

I've got it to 1400 without leading in 30/30.

[Ausglock]

44 Mag S&W 29 flat out full power loads with coated 200gr RN no gas check. no worries.
Clean and accurate.
Same load was fired in Lever rifle at 1800fps

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Here are a couple more groups that were forwarded to me from some of my customers.

83298
25 yd group 30 shots ransom rest, 138 gr button nose wadcutter (Green Hi-Tek)
83299
50 yds 30 shots ransom rest, 138 gr button nose wadcutter (Green Hi-Tek)
83300
50 yds 30 shots ransom rest, 138 gr button nose wadcutter (Green Hi-Tek)
83297
.30 carbine 115 gr magma, no gas check, 50 yds. Group to right was to confirm grouping, last 2 shots closest to target paster were after sights were adjusted. (Gold Hi-Tek)

[Shotgundrums]

I loaded some 158gr full snot 357mag rnds. About 80 rnds had some streaks at the last 2 inches of barrel. It seemed to clean out fairly easy with a dry brush...

[zomby woof]

Here are a couple more groups that were forwarded to me from some of my customers.

83298
25 yd group 30 shots ransom rest, 138 gr button nose wadcutter
83299
50 yds 30 shots ransom rest, 138 gr button nose wadcutter
83300
50 yds 30 shots ransom rest, 138 gr button nose wadcutter
83297
.30 carbine 115 gr magma, no gas check, 50 yds. Group to right was to confirm grouping, last 2 shots closest to target paster were after sights were adjusted.

What color lube?

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Zomby Woof,
I updated the original post.

[nighthunter]

Popper ... I've gotten to 2300 fps with 225107 in my 218 Bee with no gas check. No leading and near one inch groups at 50 yds. 3 coats of the red/copper just about fills the gas check shank and I use it as a flat base.

Nighthunter

[popper]

83331
3x green doesn't fill this shank. Going to try 16 of 2400 to see how it does. These have Leadman's heat treat method. Aiming for a 1800 pistol powder plinker.

[kweidner]

OMG I found a way to seat without shaving in my Dillon with slightly oversized boolits. Get the Mr. Bullet feeder Powder dies for your Dillon droppers now! The stock 9mm Dillon measures .354. Mr Bullet measures .357. Mr Bullet 40 measures .402 and the 45 cal measures .452. Gone are the days of shaving my precious coating off. Works like the M Die in a single stage. :bigsmyl2: I am going to post this in the equipment section too. Yippeeee!

[The Boar Buster]

2nd attempt
I shook the can of copper/red for 10 minutes and I mixed up a batch of 5/1/8. I did a light stain coat and let them dry for 2 hrs. The coating was light and didn't go into the lube groves. I cooked the bullets until the temp of the bullets got to 385 F then I dumped them onto a cooling tray. They passed both the 30 second acetone test and the smash test.
1rst pic is first coating
2nd pic is after first bake
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/todd458/2013-10-03131746_zpsdf7c175c.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/todd458/media/2013-10-03131746_zpsdf7c175c.jpg.html)
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/todd458/2013-10-03134213_zps8a16b5b2.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/todd458/media/2013-10-03134213_zps8a16b5b2.jpg.html)

[The Boar Buster]

2nd coat and bake. Passed both test.
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/todd458/2013-10-03141130_zpsea65a5c4.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/todd458/media/2013-10-03141130_zpsea65a5c4.jpg.html)
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/todd458/2013-10-03143745_zpsa71da03e.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/todd458/media/2013-10-03143745_zpsa71da03e.jpg.html)

[Balta]

I wish to have where to buy that stuff in Europe...:sad:

[leadman]

Boar, that looks like it should work great. I do three coats for rifles but 2 should work, especially for lower velocity loads.

[Ausglock]

Boar Buster.
That's it. You got it. Nice.

[Shotgundrums]

30 acetone test

Wipe 30 times?

[The Boar Buster]

Rub for 30 seconds with acetone. Try to make it come off.

[The Boar Buster]

I may try a 3rd coat. Some of the bases of the bullets are not fully coated. Some of the lube groves are not fully coated either, but I am not worried about them. These will only be going 1050 fps.

[gunoil]

nailed it , cool breeze! Stain away, TBB.

[Ausglock]

BBuster.
So long as all metal to metal surfaces are coated is all that matters. Bases and grooves don't matter that much.

[The Boar Buster]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think I will get some loaded up and see how the hogs like them.

[leadman]

Here are a few groups I shot yesterday from my old 1903a3 Smith Corona sporter, original dark bore barrel, old steel Weaver 10X scope, 5 shots at 100 yards.
I was testing aluminum gas checks on the Lee 200gr boolit, coated with Hi-Tek Red Copper. Five shots each group with Unique from 10grs to 14grs. Boolits were not weight sorted. If you discount the flyers the groups are under 1 inch.
No velocity info as my tripod broke yesterday, but probably 1,200 fps to 1,500 fps.834008340183402

[Shotgundrums]

Here's some of mine I coat with two coats. 5:1:7,8
83478
83476
83477
Smashing then it'll flake some but only at the ogive and
Not the bearing surface...normal?

[BBQJOE]

Here's some of mine I coat with two coats. 5:1:7,8

Smashing then it'll flake some but only at the ogive and
Not the bearing surface...normal?
It looks like maybe you're baking too hot, or too long.

[Ausglock]

It looks like maybe you're baking too hot, or too long.

I tend to agree. It looks too dark.

[Shotgundrums]

83499
Alright. Last night I put only 4 bullets in the oven and cranked it to 390 for 10 mins. Coated twice.
I wacked the hell out of these and even glanced them and on the corners with the hammer and nothing came off. I think this may finally be it. Color is still about the same though, Trev. This could be due to alloy...or so I've heard.

[Ausglock]

NO worries. So long as it passes smashing and wiping.

These colours are funny things. I have been playing with new experimental colours from HI-TEK. There is a great looking light purple coating. But when baked, it goes black.
Another is blue that goes dark dark green/black.
Another is gold that is a bright gold when baked. a lot lighter than the current gold.
These are with a new superhard resin. I am doing hardness testing on all the different colours and resin coatings.
So far, the red copper in the experimental resin No.1 is looking the hardest.
But there is resin 3 and resin 4 to play with yet.

The resin 4 has controlled hardness (apparently) by the amount of catalyst added when mixing. This could be a great resin for rifle bullets.
Imagine... want to coat pistol bullets??? just mix 5-1-7. want to coat Rifle bullets??? just mix 5-1.5-7... We will have to wait and see how it goes..

[Shotgundrums]

Man I a cant wait!! Having a far more resilient resin would definitely take this stuff above and beyond. It just may be more forgiving as well due its hardness. Awesome! Maybe Hitek will use that "DDR" label lol.

[BBQJOE]

83499
Alright. Last night I put only 4 bullets in the oven and cranked it to 390 for 10 mins. Coated twice.
I wacked the hell out of these and even glanced them and on the corners with the hammer and nothing came off. I think this may finally be it. Color is still about the same though, Trev. This could be due to alloy...or so I've heard.
Looks much better!!! You might just have it now.

[Love Life]

When do we get the fired engine red over here?

[HI-TEK]

When do we get the fired engine red over here?

Good news.
Contact Gateway Bullets (Byron), and Bayou Bullet Co (Donnie).
They should have two versions of Red, that you may be interested in.
It arrived into US in last weeks shipment.
Both may have not had a chance to even coat projectiles yet, But from what we saw here, both are exceptional colours.
Both have been tested locally first, before being sent to US.
I believe that Ausglock may have already posted some of the red colours on this blog.
If you send a pm to Ausglock he can send you some pictures and comments about these reds, or, he may post them again with his findings..

[zomby woof]

Shot our monthly High Power match today. I used the Dark Green with NOE 311115 boolits in my M1 Carbine. Accuracy was very good, no smoke and clean barrel. The barrel was spotless. It looked cleaner than my pistol barrels. I was using a gas check. I will experiment with no GC next. Very pleased.

[Ausglock]

Both reds work fine. I have found they need different settings to the other coatings.

DDR and FER both need 200Deg C for 12 minutes, not 10 minutes.

The colour wipes off after 10 minutes, but does not wipe off after 12 minutes.
Both Normal and Extreme catalysts work OK. 3 extreme does not work.
5-1-7 is a good mix.
If you are going to run with normal Catalyst, you will need the HI-TEK sizing lube.

DDR in superhard resin 1 does not work. It went blotchy and had poor coverage. I am trying FER in Resin 1 tomorrow.

Stay Tuned... Same Bat time.....Same Bat channel...

[orisolo]

Im looking into starting to coat boolits myself.
Im still "playing with the plans of the process.
I run into "Dip Spin" system that is used in the industry to produce even liquid coat on small parts.
Basically it is wetting the parts then spin them in a drum (with holes) where the centrifugal force is removing the access liquid and create even "Film" on the part.

I thought of an old top load laundry machine laying in the yard.
Was this tried before?

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Dip spin is not advisable as per Joe at Hi-Tek. Having tumbled tons of bullets in the last 2+ years I cannot see where it would be an advantage.

[Ausglock]

Because you are looking for even coverage with a fast dry coating, The dip/spin will not work. By the time the coated bullets are up to speed, the coating is already touch dry. The possibility of "reclaiming" excess coating is non-existent.
Commercial casters here use cement mixers with a plastic 20 liter bucket pushed into the open end of the mixer drum.

[nighthunter]

I have now used the red/copper coating in 3 rifle calibers with gas check designed bullets without the gas check. I have previously posted my results with the 218 Bee and today tested the coating in 35 Rem. and 45/70. In the 35 Rem., a Marlin 336 with a 1950's production, I used a 180 grain WFN with 19, 20 and 21 grains of IMR 4227. Accuracy was more than acceptable. No leading with any of the 3 loads. In the 45/70, a Ruger #1, I used a 375 grain HP of a Mihec group buy. I used 30, 32 and 34 grains of IMR 4198. The 45/70 shot all 3 loads into less than 1 inch groups at 50 yards. With both these bullets I could most likely increase velocity but the recovered bullets tell me I'll be fine at the velocities I'm shooting now. 3 coatings of Hi-Tek were used in all loads without a gas check. I think with the success I have had that there is a very bright future for these coatings for rifle use. My alloy is 50/50 coww and range salvage lead. What I need now is for Ausglock to buy me a round trip ticket to Auz and volunteer to guide me on one of those Aussie buffalo hunts. :-)

Nighthunter

[HI-TEK]

I have now used the red/copper coating in 3 rifle calibers with gas check designed bullets without the gas check. I have previously posted my results with the 218 Bee and today tested the coating in 35 Rem. and 45/70. In the 35 Rem., a Marlin 336 with a 1950's production, I used a 180 grain WFN with 19, 20 and 21 grains of IMR 4227. Accuracy was more than acceptable. No leading with any of the 3 loads. In the 45/70, a Ruger #1, I used a 375 grain HP of a Mihec group buy. I used 30, 32 and 34 grains of IMR 4198. The 45/70 shot all 3 loads into less than 1 inch groups at 50 yards. With both these bullets I could most likely increase velocity but the recovered bullets tell me I'll be fine at the velocities I'm shooting now. 3 coatings of Hi-Tek were used in all loads without a gas check. I think with the success I have had that there is a very bright future for these coatings for rifle use. My alloy is 50/50 coww and range salvage lead. What I need now is for Ausglock to buy me a round trip ticket to Auz and volunteer to guide me on one of those Aussie buffalo hunts. :-)

Nighthunter

Nighthunter
Thanks for your report.
Much appreciated.
You should be able get similar results with all the metallic coloured coatings, and even the "Natural" types.
Colour selection will be up to user.
Having said this, all colours should provide similar results, but the Metallics just give that extra benefit of additional heat reflecting property as compared to non metallics.
As per Ausglocks blogs, there is work being done, on getting a much harder and much more durable coating, that may also be very useful, and, hopefully very adapt for rifle ammo.
Much work is required to determine best all round coating system.

For your Buffalo hunt, Ausglock has never told me about his adventures in the outback. He keeps all such stuff very close to his chest, and refuses to tell others about his best sites.
May be he is very keen to preserve his Buffalo meat supply...lol..lol.

[Ausglock]

Mmmmm... Nothing better than Buff Steaks on an open grill with a side order of Emu kababs and beer battered Drop Bear testicles...

[The Boar Buster]

Well I did some testing today. I worked up a load for my 338 Spectre and fired 30rds of coated bullets through my AR then I cleaned and inspected the barrel. I did not see any lead. My patches came out sooty but nothing else. I visually inspected the 10.5" barrel as good as I could with 48 year old eyes. It looks clean. My load was 11.5 gr of IMR 4227 with a CCI 350 primer witch gave me an average velocity of 1045 fps.
In the picture from L to R 338S 310 gr cast with Hi-Tek, 338S, 200 gr speer Hot Core, 6.8 SPC 120 gr SST, 458 Socom 300 TTSX and 5.56 55 gr.
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/todd458/2013-10-06184937_zps48c59454.jpg (http://s906.photobucket.com/user/todd458/media/2013-10-06184937_zps48c59454.jpg.html)

[Thompsoncustom]

That Socom is a beefy bullet.

[Liberty'sSon]

That Socom is a beefy bullet.

I nominate Thompsoncustom for understatement of the year.

[The Boar Buster]

Yeah its a pig, 250 to 600 gr bullets. I plan on getting a 405 gr mold for it and trying the Hi-Tek coating. The 405's do about 1550 fps out of a 12.5" AR barrel. Those 300 gr Barnes bullets are a dollar a pop.

[Ausglock]

I nominate Thompsoncustom for understatement of the year.

Ditto...:bigsmyl2:

[razerok1]

ok, maybe someone can help me. I have the Hi-tek coating in black I've attempted to coat about 1k of bullets all together I can't for the life of me get the coating to look or feel smooth. When I take them out of the oven after curing (2 coats) they have a matte finish and don't feel smooth in my hands. but when i look at everyone else's results they look smooth and shiny. Am I doing something wrong? or is black just a crappy color? any tips or advice is appreciated.

[Ausglock]

How long you leaving them after coating to when you bake them?

[Shotgundrums]

So now that I've found the perfect time/heat crevice with this oven (11:00 @390-who knows if that's what it really is) would this also be ideal for my other bullets (larger) with the exception to quantity? Small:more, large:fewer? And could I stick with this for other colors out there like red copper/gold? Thanks all, and all my Australian heros:)

[razerok1]

How long you leaving them after coating to when you bake them?

till they are dry to the touch. 3 to 5 minutes.

[Shotgundrums]

till they are dry to the touch. 3 to 5 minutes.
That's def part of it. Trev recommend 30 mins. I let mine dry for 20-30 as well. To achieve a shinier coat dump the bullets out before they get tacky in the bucket. Swirl until thinly-lightly coated-dump...
Also, well circulated heat is important. My first oven didn't have a fan and while the coating cooked and cured (ok), the finish was matte-like. I hated this so bought a new oven.

[Ausglock]

till they are dry to the touch. 3 to 5 minutes.

Not long enough. a full 10 minutes at the least is needed. And then warm them with a hair drier before placing in the oven. I like 30 minutes and this gives no problems. There are no shortcuts. Do the right thing and all will be fine.

RTFM..

[razerok1]

thanks for the info guys i will report back with my results

[Danderdude]

Alright, I've skimmed this mile-long thread twice and still have a few rather important questions.

1. What happens if this coating is overheated, say into the 450F (230C) range?
2. At what temperature do boolits lose their heat-treatment from water-dropping?
3. Does the hot coating hold up to water-quenching?

For rifle boolits I'd need to be able to bump the hardness back up.

83754

[popper]

DanderDude - interesting chart. Do you have known As in your alloy? Leadman & I have made some attempts to get the BHN back up - I've never run the temp so high, even with naked CBs. I have the dark green and have not let it get much above 410F (air temp). WD has not hurt the coating that I can tell - still passes the smash test. Leadmans trick has been to cook it quickly (get the coating to cure) then drop back to 350F or so, I only do this on the last cycle. I've converted my oven to PID controlled so I can run a curve like yours on my alloy, task to be done this fall. Loading ammo today to shoot tomorrow.

[SpotHound]

I am looking at the ranch dog mold buy, what mold would be best with hi tek coating?

Tumble lube or normal grooves?

Plain base or gas check?

[Ausglock]

They all coat fine. Pick the one that suits your application.

[Gremlin460]

9 days and still no delivery. star track express are a bunch of loosers who have lied consitantly and still not delivered the product.
Joe if you read this you are being taken for a ride by them.
This is just a joke, and I am so angry I shall end this post now, while I have some civility left.

[Stephen Cohen]

9 days and still no delivery. star track express are a bunch of loosers who have lied consitantly and still not delivered the product.
Joe if you read this you are being taken for a ride by them.
This is just a joke, and I am so angry I shall end this post now, while I have some civility left.

I had same problem, it seems the product goes to Sydney first as Star don't have a base here in our area, and in my case it was delivered by private contractor. be patient it will get to you I'm sure.

[Ausglock]

I am only 4 hours away from HI-TEK. Startrack express send it to sydney and then Canberra and 4 days later it arrives here in the Grafton depot. I could walk to Hi-teks place in less than 4 days.
Startrack suck.

[SpotHound]

Star Track blows, my last shipment spent 5 days in the depot, 2 days touring the suburbs, then apparently they tried to deliver
but I was not home, funny that I was that day and had the screen door open and dog ready to bark.

Lie lier pants on fire = Star Track.

[Gateway Bullets]

till they are dry to the touch. 3 to 5 minutes.

When I coat, I only tumble 10-15 seconds and place the bullets on a screen to dry with a hot air blower for 10 minutes. Then it's off to conveyor oven (large pizza ovens) 10 minutes at 400.

Just remember, very light staining on first coat.

[Danderdude]

I've gotta ask again, what happens when you heat this coating to the 450F / 230C range?
At what temperature does an alloy lose its tempering and become annealed?

Anybody with an oven, hardness tester and 30 minutes want to contribute to science today?

[angus6]

Wanted: A magma Mark 5,6 or 7 and a Sizing machine. Delivered to OZ :-)

yep they sure take the work out of it, but then only using them a couple times a year I've got them in the way the rest of the time

[popper]

OK, 15 gr 2400, 3x green in 30/30 @50, 1600fps is a NO GO. 13 gr gave bad vertical stringing. 20 gr. LeverE was good for accuracy but 1300 fps. Back to PC for rifle.
83860
This is what I got off the choreboy/brush - doesn't include the junk on the patches. Big time sewer pipe. Bbl was cleaned before this outing. 60 rnds but was bad from the get go.

[Ausglock]

Popper..
I have never ever seen anything like that before from coated bullets....ever.

I have used them in rifles of: 30/30, 303, 357Mag, 44mag, 45/70, 32/20, 310 and they have all worked 100% fine with 92,6,2 alloy.
What you have there defies belief.
I am speechless...

[Ausglock]

I've gotta ask again, what happens when you heat this coating to the 450F / 230C range?
At what temperature does an alloy lose its tempering and become annealed?

Anybody with an oven, hardness tester and 30 minutes want to contribute to science today?

Why take it to 230deg C when 200 does the job?
Seems like a waste of energy.

[Danderdude]

Because I believe that 200C anneals away all of the tempering that water dropping adds.

83754

To get that back, especially for rifle boolits, you need to ramp that temperature back up to 430-450F (220-230C) and then quench. If Hi-Tek can't stand those temps, it's worthless for rifle rounds. I personally cannot justify the expense of HT, an oven, hardware cloth, etc if this is a one-trick pony.

[gunoil]

I shot some old boxes of lead lube/alox boolits i had today to get rid of em. Thats stuff and smoke and all makes you sick at indoor range or bout anywhere. Hi-Tek supercoat does not. I feel like a dogs @$$. Well, i'll eat some wombat stew and drink a coke.

[zomby woof]

OK, 15 gr 2400, 3x green in 30/30 @50, 1600fps is a NO GO. 13 gr gave bad vertical stringing. 20 gr. LeverE was good for accuracy but 1300 fps. Back to PC for rifle.
83860
This is what I got off the choreboy/brush - doesn't include the junk on the patches. Big time sewer pipe. Bbl was cleaned before this outing. 60 rnds but was bad from the get go.


I'm by no means an expert, but I would guess your coating wasn't cured.

[Danderdude]

I'm by no means an expert, but I would guess your coating wasn't cured.

OR the bullet was simply too soft, as a result of annealing.

So I ask again, what happens to Hi-Tek when it's heated to 450F/230C?

[HI-TEK]

OK, 15 gr 2400, 3x green in 30/30 @50, 1600fps is a NO GO. 13 gr gave bad vertical stringing. 20 gr. LeverE was good for accuracy but 1300 fps. Back to PC for rifle.
83860
This is what I got off the choreboy/brush - doesn't include the junk on the patches. Big time sewer pipe. Bbl was cleaned before this outing. 60 rnds but was bad from the get go.

Most interesting results.
You must give me your method, how you can get that amount of gunk out of a barrel?
I have never seen such gunk with any previous user.
Most interesting part is, that the stick and scraped gunk is dark blue coloured.
How can that be? Properly baked coating is Green not Blue.
Most puzzling.
I would suggest, that you go back to your supplier, and may be visit his premises and discuss your method and get some tips.
What you are showing is definitely not caused by correct application of the coating....

[nighthunter]

Most people don't like to be told they are doing something wrong or that their methods are incorrect but sometimes it has to be done. We all make mistakes once is a while. Reevaluating your methods is part of the learning process, especially if your results with a product are inferior to the results of what others are achieving with the same product. Sometimes we have to admit that yes it was me that screwed up. Learn from it and move on.

Nighthunter

[Love Life]

OR the bullet was simply too soft, as a result of annealing.

So I ask again, what happens to Hi-Tek when it's heated to 450F/230C?

Buy some, heat it up to the temp you want info on, report back...

[Ausglock]

Buy some, heat it up to the temp you want info on, report back...

Ditto.
The rest of us are too busy casting, coating and shooting to piss around with strange requests.
Try it for yourself and enlighten us.

[gunoil]

popper, how'ed you get that much car paint inside your barrel.

[Love Life]

Dang Popper!! You sure you didn't coat them in wood glue on accident?

ETA- The whole losing hardness and trying to reheat to heat treat was covered in this thread a ways back.

[popper]

Back off guys. This is the same alloy (PC) I push to 2400 fps 1 MOA in AR 308 carbine. The HiTek is the dark green that I got for PISTOL. It seems to be OK below 1300 fps ish. The last cook I dropped the temp to 350F to get the BHN back, got about half back, still no go. They are non-GC RD311 170. I can get 2 MOA @ ~1800 fps using PC and softer alloy. I could make Unique loads @ 12-1300, but why? Shot a bunch of 40 & 9, works fine. When HiTek gets a HV rifle coating I'll try it.
The stick is a toothpick I use to roll and separate UNCOOKED, the gunk is definitely BLACK. Lots of sparkles in it too. Maybe a GC would keep the gunk down but why add $0.03 per boolit when I have a working solution without it.
Ausglock post your specs and results for rifle please. I only posted this info as I see some are wanting to use it (HiTek) in rifle, hate to see them spend $100 on something that may not work for them.
DanderDude 200F will remove any hardness.

[nighthunter]

Popper ... I'm getting decent velocity and accuracy with the red/copper coating. Why not give it a try before you give up. Are you sure you are using enough catylist in the mixture? Something you are doing has to be the problem. Have you used an oven temp guage in you oven? I think the cook time starts when the oven reaches 375-380. Not setting the timer for 10 minutes with the temp dial at 375. I'm just trying to help.

Nighthunter

[popper]

nighthunter Put some numbers to the red/copper that you use. There is a lot of interest in it for rifle, members need to know results, not just a 'works for me' statement. Leadman has given some help on the BHN problem, but no accuracy/velocity numbers. Yes, I'm using a PID and watch.

[HI-TEK]

Back off guys. This is the same alloy I push to 2400 fps 1 MOA in AR 308 carbine. The HiTek is the dark green. It seems to be OK below 1300 fps ish. The last cook I dropped the temp to 350F to get the BHN back, got about half back, still no go. They are non-GC RD311 170. I can get 2 MOA @ ~1800 fps using PC and softer alloy. I could make Unique loads @ 12-1300, but why? Shot a bunch of 40 & 9, works fine. When HiTek gets a HV rifle coating I'll try it.

Thanks for explanation. Your idea is sound with respect to trying to maintain alloy hardness by keeping temperatures down.

However, the coating requires minimum of 180C (at least 370F) for minimum of 10 minutes.
(With most Powder coatings the cure is done at 390F for about 20 minutes)
This temperature, as also used for powder coating, will also soften alloy as would be done with the HT coating.
Now it seems to be more clear, why the coating scraped out of your barrel is still blue, as it has not been subjected to correct cure temperature and time for long enough.
At 350F all you are doing is drying the coating and it does not harden, and will not bond to alloy, as that is achieved above 180C.
This certainly will cause problems you have experienced.

All instructions about applying the coating advises, (or should advise), that the the coating must be subjected to at least 180C for 10 to 15 minutes it to work correctly.
At 190C (380F) that time is reduced to between 8-12 minutes.
Many have found, that depending on metal loading in oven, some had required to heat at 200C (392F) for a total of 12 minutes.
Thereafter, and after exposure to 390F for 12 minutes, the coating will definitely will not melt as it is extremely stable.
I know that this is not what you require or are aiming for maintaining alloy hardness.
But I have seen many posting excellent results with various alloys in similar velocities that you seem to be having problems with.
I do not know what else to advise to help out, as making your own alloys, is outside areas of my expertise, and may be others can assist with this area who had successfully made suitable alloys for such use..

[Ausglock]

Popper. I have no hard data. Other than heaps of dead pigs, goats, Dogs, Camels, Buffalos and donkeys etc etc etc.

[leadman]

Danderdude, the coating will start to turn darker and may get brittle at 400 degrees. I have experimented with water quenched and heat treated boolits coated with Red Copper and to get the highest velocity I heat treated linotype to 35 BHN, then coated with Red Copper, baked to 375 degrees and then turned the heat down to 350 degrees. It takes several minutes to drop the temperature and this allows the coating to cure. I used 2 coats with the Extreme 2 Catalyst.
My attempts to maintain water quenched BHN did not work. Not saying it can't be done but it is easier to use an alloy that has it BHN from the components of the alloy rather than from water quenching or heat treating.
I have use 17 BHN Lee 30 caliber boolits coated with Red Copper up to around 2,000 fps and was able to maintain accuracy. I also installed gas checks. The aluminum checks sold by 338REMUltramag here are $18 per thousand so that is a big help, and they work very well.
popper, I posted velocity and accuracy results a ways back with the 223 Rem. 3,465fps, 1.8" at 100 yards, no leading. 30-06 was up around 2,500fps with the Lyman 314299 but accuracy was around 5" IIRC. I think the Lee 200gr might shoot better from recent testing with it.

Off to hunt elk in the mountains tomorrow!

[Love Life]

Back off guys.

Just pulling your leg. I should have added one of these. :kidding:

[Gremlin460]

Just to make ShotgunDrums happy I can inform him the Purple arrived today.

The nice happy cheerful StarTrack driver was met at the gate buy the wife as I was out.
Out of the two of us, it would have been better (for him) if I was home.
She's a bit of a firebrand when upset, and she was very upset.

So now its a toss-up wether I coat on sunday or watch Bathurst.

[Ausglock]

Just to make ShotgunDrums happy I can inform him the Purple arrived today.

The nice happy cheerful StarTrack driver was met at the gate buy the wife as I was out.
Out of the two of us, it would have been better (for him) if I was home.
She's a bit of a firebrand when upset, and she was very upset.

So now its a toss-up wether I coat on sunday or watch Bathurst.
Take a TV to the shed and do both....

What is the colour code?

[Shotgundrums]

Just to make ShotgunDrums happy I can inform him the Purple arrived today.

The nice happy cheerful StarTrack driver was met at the gate buy the wife as I was out.
Out of the two of us, it would have been better (for him) if I was home.
She's a bit of a firebrand when upset, and she was very upset.

So now its a toss-up wether I coat on sunday or watch Bathurst.

Alright!! Finally lol. Def post pics please :)

[Danderdude]

Buy some, heat it up to the temp you want info on, report back...


Ditto.
The rest of us are too busy casting, coating and shooting to piss around with strange requests.
Try it for yourself and enlighten us.

Yeah, and just write off the $200 entry fee on a maybe? There are enough people on here with HT lube that I shouldn't have to, when all it takes is cooking 5 boolits extra hot. There are also people who should know this already, like the maker (hint hint).

The snark was uncalled for.


Danderdude, the coating will start to turn darker and may get brittle at 400 degrees.

Alright, so Hi-Tek fries at temps you need to get lead to in order to heat treat...
Meaning you have to use an alloy higher in tin and antimony...
Meaning your alloy now costs 2-4 times more...
And density is reduced for a lower ballistic coefficient.

Dang. What a relief it is to know you dodged an expensive bullet. Yall have fun with your colorful phenol formaldehyde, I'm doubling down on 45-45-10 and Star lubesizing, smoke be damned.

[Love Life]

Yeah, and just write off the $200 entry fee on a maybe? There are enough people on here with HT lube that I shouldn't have to, when all it takes is cooking 5 boolits extra hot. There are also people who should know this already, like the maker (hint hint).

The snark was uncalled for.



Alright, so Hi-Tek fries at temps you need to get lead to in order to heat treat...
Meaning you have to use an alloy higher in tin and antimony...
Meaning your alloy now costs 2-4 times more...
And density is reduced for a lower ballistic coefficient.

Dang. What a relief it is to know you dodged an expensive bullet. Yall have fun with your colorful phenol formaldehyde, I'm doubling down on 45-45-10 and Star lubesizing, smoke be damned.

Enjoy!!

[nighthunter]

Popper .... If you want to see my numbers go back in this thread and read my previous posts. Maybe I should send you a new light bulb because the the one you have now ain't going on. I have been able to achieve with this coating anything I've been able to achieve with traditional lube and gas check. Maybe your expectations are too high. I believe a cast bullet is a cast bullet no matter what methods we use to lubricate or protect it during its travel in the bore. Reality tells us not to expect jacketed performance with a cast bullet. If that's what you want maybe you should try swageing.

Nighthunter

[BBQJOE]

The one thing about this whole Hi-tek procedure, is that no one is forcing anyone to use it. Many have had good results. From what I've read, seen, and done, shows me that those who are having problems just don't get it, or are not following directions.
Again, no one is forcing anyone to use this method. Do what works for you, and carry on. This is supposed to be fun, not a war.

[HI-TEK]

Yeah, and just write off the $200 entry fee on a maybe? There are enough people on here with HT lube that I shouldn't have to, when all it takes is cooking 5 boolits extra hot. There are also people who should know this already, like the maker (hint hint).

The snark was uncalled for.



Alright, so Hi-Tek fries at temps you need to get lead to in order to heat treat...
Meaning you have to use an alloy higher in tin and antimony...
Meaning your alloy now costs 2-4 times more...
And density is reduced for a lower ballistic coefficient.

Dang. What a relief it is to know you dodged an expensive bullet. Yall have fun with your colorful phenol formaldehyde, I'm doubling down on 45-45-10 and Star lubesizing, smoke be damned.

Just curious.
Can you please enlighten all, as to what was your reason to post on this blog?
It seems to me any way, that you want information and support from all others and you do not wish to do any testing yourself.
As said many times previously, by many others on this site, if you have something that you are happy with, then why not just keep on doing what you are pleased with.
No one said that the HI-Tek coating is able to solve all problems, especially when trying to do things that is known as not being practical.
I have not seen any submission by you to show, that what you are proposing is practical, and using conventional lubes will still produce problems that many have been trying to solve since Adam was a boy.
Apology for my rant, but I find such lack of constructive criticism very unhelpful.

[Danderdude]

Apology for my rant, but I find such lack of constructive criticism very unhelpful.

Heat treating is a MAJOR part of bullet casting. There are only two ways to control hardness: heat treating and uniform alloying. With tin and antimony each 10X more expensive than lead per pound, heat treating is the low-cost option. By freezing the transitional crystalline matrix of a 96-3-1 alloy at 440F the alloy becomes MUCH harder than it is at 200-420F, and it stays that way. Curing Hi-Tek means you simultaneously anneal the bullets to the softest they can possibly be.

Now I asked a very simple question several times in this thread, to jeering responses. The first time you deign yourself to speak to a lowly young caster like myself is only after I've found your Achilles' heel.

This complication with Hi-Tek is a inherent serious, undeniable and unavoidable design flaw with the product. It will only work with a more expensive, less dense alloy.
I'm more shocked that you're not more forthcoming than anything else.


It seems to me any way, that you want information and support from all others and you do not wish to do any testing yourself.

Testing, testing, testing...
Why is the end-user the one who all the testing left up to? Isn't the manufacturer supposed to be as involved, if not more so, than we lowly peons?


No one said that the HI-Tek coating is able to solve all problems.

Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:
1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
3. It makes some pretty boolits.

Everything else is done as well or better by other products, at lower cost, with more versatility.


especially when trying to do things that is known as not being practical.

Heat treating an inexpensive alloy so it can be used in a high pressure load isn't practical?

[Love Life]

What he/she asked was already covered. I get people are afraid to drop the $100 to start from scratch (cheap oven, coating, materials to amke drying rack), but some are just boorish and want all the answers without any of the work. Interested in it? Then try it. Gunoil got staeted with a half priced kit and is rolling along. i think he may drink the coating sometimes, but hey! That's why his posts are so fun.

I'll coat bullets for people to play with if they want. They can bake them, run them over, say mean things to them, etc.

I was interested so I jumped in. Screwed it up the 1st couple times because I don't need to follow no stinking instructions, and now am loving it. 8mm Mauser testing with lino will be conducted this weekend...again.

[Love Life]

This complication with Hi-Tek is a inherent serious, undeniable and unavoidable design flaw with the product. It will only work with a more expensive, less dense alloy.
I'm more shocked that you're not more forthcoming than anything else.

For the bazillionth time. IT HAS BEEN COVERED ALREADY!!!!

By a couple people even. For pistoleers shooting up to magnum velocities, using red/copper, COWW, range lead, and even my hodgepodge of random melting stuff works fine.

For Rifle, what I have found in the 8mm, is the alloy may be my limiting factor. I started full snot over the starting charge of benchmark and worked to the max load for jacketed bullets using a 200 gr cast spire point. From my Remington 700 I was my largest group at the high end was 7 inches at 100 yds. My smallest group was 3inches and change. I have more testing to do, but unless I can get under an inch then I won't fool with cast/coated bullets in that rifle anymore as it shoots to well with jacketed to take a step back in performance to save money.

With the M48A with sewer pipe bore, I was able to achieve normal 3-4 inch groups at 100 yds with irons. Once done testing I'll write it all up for the world to see with pictures and everything. Maybe.

I have some mono and stereotype on hand and will give that a try as well.

[popper]

I'm not in marketing/sales dept. I'm not promoting anything, I won't drop $100 for a product that won't do what i want. I got the green for pistol coating, thought I'd try it in rifle. It works to ~1300fps. Not a problem for me. I'm not angry with H-T cause it doesn't work faster.

My attempts to maintain water quenched BHN did not work. Not saying it can't be done but it is easier to use an alloy that has it BHN from the components of the alloy rather than from water quenching or heat treating.
I have use 17 BHN Lee 30 caliber boolits coated with Red Copper up to around 2,000 fps and was able to maintain accuracy. I also installed gas checks. The aluminum checks sold by 338REMUltramag here are $18 per thousand so that is a big help, and they work very well.
popper, I posted velocity and accuracy results a ways back with the 223 Rem. 3,465fps, 1.8" at 100 yards, no leading. 30-06 was up around 2,500fps with the Lyman 314299 but accuracy was around 5" IIRC. I think the Lee 200gr might shoot better from recent testing with it.
I bolded the facts for red/copper; Looks like it is good for normal alloy to 2000fps & GCd. IIRC Leadman used lino alloy for the 06.

Reality tells us not to expect jacketed performance with a cast bullet.
Really? Hodgdon says 2550 fps for jacketed in 308 for a 20"(?) bbl. My AR does 1"@100 with Amax, I get close to that with cast, PCd - >2400, 1"@100 out of a 16" bbl.
The 30/30 does 1"@100 with FTX, best I've done is 2"@100, PCd, close to same fps.
Nighthunter - you didn't say what alloy you used. yes, the H-T appears to work good at higher fps with smaller cals. More good info.

[Love Life]

Also, water quenching hardens the surface. When you size them you work soften them. Kind of not cool. Oven heat treat hardens the bullet throughout. However;you do indeed lose that hardening when you bake to cure the coating.

As alluded to, you need to start with an alloy that has the BHN and properties you need without the use of heat treating and/or water quenching.

[gunoil]

ladies and gentlemen: watch/read post 13 below

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215477-If-you-use-loadmaster-l-k-below

[popper]

Looking at load data for the 44mag, 45/70, Bee and others, I see no reason that low end loads would not work with the red/copper. Mostly below velocity/pressure of 30/30. Way below 308, 7-8mm, 06 pressures. With some hard data, many 44mag, 45/70 shooters on the board might switch. Reminds me of the factory ad for the 150 mph top end of the firebird 400. A motor mag tried it, couldn't keep the motor, tranny or rear end cool enough to make it - after highly moding the body for airflow, huge radiator and tranny cooler. IIRC they did get close.
The black gunk is powdered and heat deteriorated coating. Looks the same as the stuff off the pot when I recycle.

[Shotgundrums]

83907

[popper]

Learned about all I can in the last year about casting & lubing, nothing to add. I've maxed out performance in my guns so I'll check back in 6 mo or a year to see if H-T has a rifle product. Bye.

[zomby woof]

Thanks for explanation. Your idea is sound with respect to trying to maintain alloy hardness by keeping temperatures down.

However, the coating requires minimum of 180C (at least 370F) for minimum of 10 minutes.
(With most Powder coatings the cure is done at 390F for about 20 minutes)
This temperature, as also used for powder coating, will also soften alloy as would be done with the HT coating.
Now it seems to be more clear, why the coating scraped out of your barrel is still blue, as it has not been subjected to correct cure temperature and time for long enough.
At 350F all you are doing is drying the coating and it does not harden, and will not bond to alloy, as that is achieved above 180C.
This certainly will cause problems you have experienced.

All instructions about applying the coating advises, (or should advise), that the the coating must be subjected to at least 180C for 10 to 15 minutes it to work correctly.
At 190C (380F) that time is reduced to between 8-12 minutes.
Many have found, that depending on metal loading in oven, some had required to heat at 200C (392F) for a total of 12 minutes.
Thereafter, and after exposure to 390F for 12 minutes, the coating will definitely will not melt as it is extremely stable.
I know that this is not what you require or are aiming for maintaining alloy hardness.
But I have seen many posting excellent results with various alloys in similar velocities that you seem to be having problems with.
I do not know what else to advise to help out, as making your own alloys, is outside areas of my expertise, and may be others can assist with this area who had successfully made suitable alloys for such use..


OK Hi-Tek,
help me understand something. I pre-heat my oven, set to 385F. I place my tray full of coated boolits into the oven. It takes 8-9 minutes to reach 385F. I'm using a digital thermometer that is right over the tray. How long do I keep it at 385? Is 10 minutes enough (one more minute at 385)? So I guess the question is, once I reach the desired temperature, how long should they be left in the oven?

Thanks

[bstone5]

Popper

The gold and light red have more filler.

For a rifle I would try the gold with a gas check on a little hard cast bullet.

I have shot the 44 mag with the gold color Hi-Tech coating with a cola can gas check at the pressures and velocity of a jacket bullet with good results.

I added a little hard bird shot to increase the hardness of the lead a little, let them age a week or two and they shoot very good.

The S&W revolver almost hurts when you load the 44 to the max.

The contender with the 44 mag barrel has a scope and the gun with the bullets out shoot my ability at my age.

[Ausglock]

OK Hi-Tek,
help me understand something. I pre-heat my oven, set to 385F. I place my tray full of coated boolits into the oven. It takes 8-9 minutes to reach 385F. I'm using a digital thermometer that is right over the tray. How long do I keep it at 385? Is 10 minutes enough (one more minute at 385)? So I guess the question is, once I reach the desired temperature, how long should they be left in the oven?

Thanks

ZW

My process..
I preheat to 200deg C
place tray of 250 9mm bullets into oven.
Set timer for 10 minutes.
Temp drops as the metal is getting heated.
At 5 minute mark I crack the oven door and white smoke/fumes come out. Close door.
At 8 minute mark crack door. no smoke or fumes. Just heat haze. close door.
At 10 minute mark, DING DING. oven turns off.
Open door and remove tray of hot coated bullets.
Restart oven and place next tray of bullets into oven and repeat until I run out of bullets to bake.

Easy.

[prickett]

Heat treating an inexpensive alloy so it can be used in a high pressure load isn't practical?

Go to the Klass Kote threads and see if that method better suits you. Its difference to HT is that heating isn't required for curing. Sounds like it might just what you need.

It has all the same advantages of HT w/o the heating. I do find it a much messier process, however.

[Shotgundrums]

Go to the Klass Kote threads and see if that method better suits you. Its difference to HT is that heating isn't required for curing. Sounds like it might just what you need.

It has all the same advantages of HT w/o the heating. I do find it a much messier process, however.

Epoxy most certainly works. And post cure temp isn't nearly as detrimental to BHN. There's your Plus. I coat mine three times, dry for around 30 mins on top of the preheating oven. Post cure for 22 mins at 250F. I infuse an 1/8 tsp of PTFE per 2 tbsp of catalyzing epoxy. PTFE not crazy deadly like people think. You'd almost have to smoke it like crack to get the sever symptoms of it's exposure. The half lb container i got from DuPont came with an MSDS.

And now back to you, HT coating

Trev, from what i hear from you these new harder resins sound paramount. Any news from the kitchen?

[Ausglock]

Yep. There is a harder resin. Resin 2.

I did some hardness testing on all the different resin coatings.

The current resin is pretty good with the red/copper and the Gold. The blue/green was a little softer.

The resin 2 with red/copper and normal catalyst was the hardest of all tested. I didn't have any gold in resin 2 to test.

I an loading 10 rounds of the different resins and pushing them hard out of the SVI racegun on the weekend to see how they shoot.
If the resin 2 red/copper shoots OK and accurate, I'll coat some 158gr RNFP and load them up to teeth rattlers for the 357Mag lever rifle. Might do some 200gr RNFP for the 44 Mag as well.

[Gremlin460]

What is the colour code?

Violet-2X and Red 1220L

These I should mix @ 5-1-7 using acetone.
Preheat 200, cook 11 mins, toss out to cool and recoat..
is it 2-3 coats then cook or cook between each coat?
since these are only 9mm pistol I may only coat twice. depending on outcome.

[Shotgundrums]

Violet-2X and Red 1220L

These I should mix @ 5-1-7 using acetone.
Preheat 200, cook 11 mins, toss out to cool and recoat..
is it 2-3 coats then cook or cook between each coat?
since these are only 9mm pistol I may only coat twice. depending on outcome.

Cook them for each coat. Twice works fine for small pistol loads.

[Ausglock]

Grem.
remember.. first coat has to be very thin. If you think it looks right, then it is too much.
The Violet R-2X is very nice. The 1220/L No.1 is also a nice purple.
I actually mixed some of this last night to coat some 45 pills.

Coat.
wait.
pre-heat.
bake.
cool.
Wipe.
Smash.
If wipe and smash OK.
coat.
wait
bake.
wipe.
Smash.
size.
shoot.
smile.
repeat.

[HI-TEK]

Heat treating is a MAJOR part of bullet casting. There are only two ways to control hardness: heat treating and uniform alloying. With tin and antimony each 10X more expensive than lead per pound, heat treating is the low-cost option. By freezing the transitional crystalline matrix of a 96-3-1 alloy at 440F the alloy becomes MUCH harder than it is at 200-420F, and it stays that way. Curing Hi-Tek means you simultaneously anneal the bullets to the softest they can possibly be.

Now I asked a very simple question several times in this thread, to jeering responses. The first time you deign yourself to speak to a lowly young caster like myself is only after I've found your Achilles' heel.

This complication with Hi-Tek is a inherent serious, undeniable and unavoidable design flaw with the product. It will only work with a more expensive, less dense alloy.
I'm more shocked that you're not more forthcoming than anything else.

Testing, testing, testing...
Why is the end-user the one who all the testing left up to? Isn't the manufacturer supposed to be as involved, if not more so, than we lowly peons?

Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:
1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
3. It makes some pretty boolits.

Everything else is done as well or better by other products, at lower cost, with more versatility.

Heat treating an inexpensive alloy so it can be used in a high pressure load isn't practical?

Reply to your above matters.
Quote
" freezing the transitional crystalline matrix of a 96-3-1 alloy at 440F, the alloy becomes MUCH harder than it is at 420F, and it stays that way."
Reply
I find your above details very confusing. How can you freeze alloy at 440F 0r 420F, and keep it at such hardness at 420 to 440F???

Quote
"Curing Hi-Tek means you simultaneously anneal the bullets to the softest they can possibly be."
Reply. As you had indicated, and may be I am wrong, you did say that you were not prepared to spend your money, on coatings.
Therefore, I am wondering, that if you had not tested the coating process to gauge any annealing taking place, how can you make sweeping statements of what the coating & alloy will or will not do when coating is heat cured?
As you have apparently not purchased nor used the coating, and, you have not provided any data, how is it that you can draw any conclusions as to what actually happens with hardness of the alloy during cure cycle ?
If you had in fact done tests to substantiate your assertions, you would have posted results to prove your statements.
In fact, you are relying on "others", to spend their money, and do all the work, and then supply it to you free of charge, just for the sake of you asking.

Quote
" I asked a very simple question several times in this thread"
Reply, As advised previously, the coating is no more than a physical barrier that survives the shooting process.
It has nothing to do with your attempts to use the coating in a fashion that the coating was not designed to do.
If you would have done some testing on ability or non-ability of coating, you may have been able to post your findings when you allege, that coating process is interfering with hardness designs you are seeking.
Without you being able to supply irrefutable test data to support your stance, then why do you continue to try and discredit the coating when you cannot supply hard data to back up your allegations?

Quote
"I've found your Achilles' heel."
Reply I find your such statement offensive and underhanded.
If you had not done any work to support any of your claims. What the hell are you talking about with your above statement?????
You have no idea what the coating will or will not do.

Quote
"This complication with Hi-Tek is a inherent serious, undeniable and unavoidable design flaw with the product.[/I][/B] It will only work with a more expensive, less dense alloy. "

Reply. You cannot be more wrong.
Plain Lead, blends, and various standard alloys have been used in all sorts of guns at various speeds, and people have no problems if coating is applied correctly.
It is very apparent, that you have totally ignored all users previous postings, but it does not stop you rambling on, with unsupported allegations.

Quote
"Testing, testing, testing... "
Reply. As you have not appeared to have done any testing, what are you talking about????
You are the one, who is trying to "lean on" and almost demand from other shooters, to spend their money, do the work, (and then to provide you proof), by supplying you data that you had not done yourself.
How cheap is that????

Quote
"Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:
1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
3. It makes some pretty boolits."
Reply. You are very uninformed, and, as you had not obviously read the data on the coatings, and, as you apparently had not used the coatings, because you did not want to spend your money, you have no real understanding nor idea, of total benefits when using the various coatings.

Quote
"Everything else is done as well or better by other products, at lower cost, with more versatility".
Reply. How can you make such a statement??? Have you done a costs analysis to be able to demonstrate and substantiate your claim????

Quote. "Here are the problems Hi-Tek solves:"
1. No direct lead exposure while handling ammo.
2. It gives a tumble lube coat that isn't sticky.
3. It makes some pretty boolits.
Reply
Just in case you missed all the data that is available and has been available for some 20 years or more, the following are some of the benefits of using the Hi-Tek coating.
1. Minimises Atomised Lead emission and significantly reduces metal to metal contact,
2. Low smoke,
3. Self lubricates,
4. Does not melt or become sticky at elevated temperatures even at Lead melting temperatures.
5. Allows severe deformation, and severe sizing, without coating coming off the alloy, and without damaging the alloy.
6. Leaves no deposit inside barrels
7. Does not leave messy smelly lubricants or Lead alloy fragments on machinery especially when sizing and ammo manufacture and does not melt like waxes and other lubes.
8. NATA certified, that demonstrates, (no other lubricant or coating is certified with this aspect), that coating actually reduces atomised Lead to meet US and Australian health regulations when used on ammunition..
9. Reflects heat to protect alloy from damage with use of high energy powder loads.
10. Cost per coated item is very low.
11. Does not stain hands or equipment.
12. Capable to allow production at a very high production rate.
13. Cured coating reflects heat away from alloys and protects them from being damaged when using high energy loads, especially in conditions when the barrel gets very hot.
One of the members described how he uses the coated projectiles in high speed rapid fire conditions, and uses wet rag to keep his Barrel cool.
In such use conditions, the coating still performs well.
14. In many application, it allow user not to use Gas Check.
15. Can be used on Copper Jacketed ammo to reduce or prevent Copper fouling.
16. Reduces requirements for user to not have to buy many cleaners, some of which actually damages the Barrels.
17. Reduces labour time to clean guns after use.
18. Very tough coating.
19. Greatly increased accuracy.

These are just a few benefits, and is just a little more, than what you allege above.

Quote. "3. It makes some pretty boolits."
Reply. Yes I agree, but you do not understand reasons why many components are used.
Not only are they pretty, but have an engineering benefit for using them.
Again, as you do not use, nor understand the properties of the coating, you making cynical comments, only places you in a bad light with others who are using the products very successfully.

And, as you have said, you have nor purchased the product, it is still unclear why you are simply badmouthing the product.

As I requested previously, (a request that was totally ignored), you should fess up, and disclose reason why you now are behaving in such a manner, especially when you really do not know the product at all.
What is in it for YOU??????

[Danderdude]

Sir, your wanton display of willful ignorance is embarrassing. Please, PLEASE, for the betterment of yourself and your customers, get educated on the crystallography of lead alloys and the physics of tempering and annealing.

Here are some resources you can get started with.
http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystallography#Crystallography_in_materials_engin eering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treatment

Your coating fails at about 410F. Far before that point, the lead is already annealed.
To heat treat a 3% antimony alloy requires quenching at 430-450, depending on what hardness you want.
Instead of wheel weights at 60 cents a pound, to make a rifle bullet now requires the far more rare $2/lb linotype to achieve proper hardness.

While you're doing that, let me take the opportunity to educate everybody else about the interesting chemical reactions going on in polymerization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiGYQhYCzI

[Love Life]

Get out of here danderdude.

Go back and read the whole thread. Leadman and Popper have already stated the issue with losing hardness, and have tested the ability to heat treat lino to retain hardness.

If buying lino is going to break your bank roll, then you need to re-examine your financial standing and decisions.

As we have pointed you to the tests that have already been done, free of charge to you BTW, and you fail to read them it is time for you to move along. You are adding nothing NEW or PRODUCTIVE here. It has been covered. Free of charge to you BTW.

To summarize:
Your concerns have already been noted in this thread
Further experimentation has already been done on how to keep hardness
All free of charge to you...
Experimentation is in the works for a harder coating
Stop doo dooing the thread while the experiment works itself through...free of charge to you.


You feel as if you have latched onto something important here. As if you are some sort of leader, and expelling the darkness for those who may follow you.

You are not. You are rehashing last week's news.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[jmort]

Completely agree. You have been even handed in all the threads are are not a hater. Level-headed and you go for it. It would be nice, not implying you, if the same respect was shown in the other threads. Too often noses are poked into the other threads not furthering the O/P intent or respecting the thread. Again, this is not directed at you Lovelife.

[Love Life]

Exactly.

I was curious about HI-TEK, so I ponied up my own money and time so that I could see what all the jazz was about. Now I know it is awesome stuff.

I was curious about the TES powder coating method so I ponied up my money and time to see what all the jazz was about. It works and is also awesome.

I just prefer the HI-TEK method as I have found it is easier to work with and accomplishes my goals once I stopped being a bone head and followed the instructions.

I have a WTB ad posted for some of the copper enriched alloy so that I can continue my rifle experiments and see where that goes.

[orisolo]

Love life, I always love to read your NO BS approach and replies.
You are always on the money.

Dunderdude, since you are so good with formulas and "Numbers" lets see if you can solve this one:
Facts (for sake of argument).
cost of lead (PB) is $1/LB
Cost of Tin (SN) is $10/LB
Cost of antimony (SB) is $6/LB

Question: When mixing 1LB of Lead with 2%of antimony and 3% of TIn, what is the cost of 1LB alloyed Lead? What is the cost increase per bullet cast assuming you have 50 bullets per alloyed LB

If you can answer the above that's great, if the cost difference is "breaking your bank" then stop shooting or find a job.

[gunoil]

my lead and brass are free, hell ,, ive even got friends ive met on different forums sending me lyman #2 lead. Other guy at ft bragg give me some great lead and some times i make him a few 380's. My friend at coke plant brought me 129 lbs of great lead and gave it to me he found at estate sale. I hand pick at my friends big truck tire store, yea for free.

42$ of hitek-supercoat stain does 12 thousand bullets. I just buy powder and primers and i just load pistol only. You can find free lead if you want to. Twoalphabullets.com will sell ya 1000 un-lubed/unsized bullets for 55 bucks$..

Buy gotta go shoot somemore, off today and mondays a paid holiday. Goat stew tonite, hehehe, i wish! Over rice.

Just got my twin fan system working again, the one in attic up by the shingles quit, so now both are working. You see the one hanging over pot from home depot.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/null_zps6c197f6d.jpg

[Ausglock]

Dander dude.
Mate. I don't get what your probem is.
If the hi-tek coating does not do what you want, then don't bloody use it!

Jesus... nobody is forcing you to..
go lube or PC or epoxy or Klass Kote etc etc etc.

Wear a hat when you go outside or the sun will fry your brain

[Gremlin460]

Is it ok to coat some at night and bake next day?, I am asking in case there is a time limit from coat to actual oven time... read back a few pages and it hasent been mentioned

[Ausglock]

coat tonight and bake next week if you like. Makes no difference.
Just keep them clean. don't let any dust or dirt get on them before baking.

[Gremlin460]

ok , will mix some up now at 5-1-7 , sort 250 piles up, and add enough mix just to get em damp not coloured

[Ausglock]

You will find that those colours you have will make the bullets very bright pink/purple. even with only a tiny bit. it covers really good.
So, if after 2 coats it looks a bit light, just throw another coat on them.
A bit of practice with it and you will be cheering.

[Ausglock]

Since I don't know what oven you are using, I'd suggest checking that the temp is actually 200Deg C first.
If you bake for 10 minutes and the bullet fails the wipe test, Increase the time to 12 minutes.
Or increase the temp to 210 if you oven is graduated to that for 10 minutes.
If you stuff it up, you can remelt and cast again...:bigsmyl2:

I have had a bullet free day. Processing the photos of the Daughter's wedding last weekend and making DVDs for all the family.

[btroj]

Just got my oven for coating. Hamilton Beach 31100 at Menards. Good thing I waited a few weeks, it was on sale today for 39.49, regular price is 79.00. I like a good sale.

Now to order some coating.

[Love Life]

I just loaded another 500 rds of 45 acp. It was so clean. On the downside I am out of bullseye and will be moving to red dot. Years back in my "Have to try every powder" phase I ended up with about 10 lbs of different powders (10 different powders) that all do the same thing in 45 acp. So as I finish one pound, I work up loads again with the next pound/brand of powder.

I only have 5 more pounds left and then I can break into my kegs of unique.

[Gremlin460]

oven is a Westinghouse freestyle, with timer, fan forced and graduated scale to 250c, been playing with the thermometer so much darn battery went flat.. time for a bunnings run

[Gremlin460]

well the red went copper... pictures soon...
2000 boolits took, 50ish mls in two coats

[HI-TEK]

well the red went copper... pictures soon...
2000 boolits took, 50ish mls in two coats

Looking forward to photos.
usage is about right for quantity, but from previous tests, may be, you could have used a little less per 1000, but it really depends on finish required.
What mix did you do, and what temperature did you bake and for how long?
How much metal per cook?

[Ausglock]

Grem. Get your eyes tested..

[Gremlin460]

here are pics of my first attempt..
84174
This was my first coat, first batch, I found that i was being just a little on the lean side. I was trying to stick with the "stain" is best idea.

84175
These are the second try I coated before baking, used a ilttle bit more and got a better coverage.

84176
This pic is half of what i coated drying in the sun, the others were being baked.

84177
I measured up the bottle with a tape, 3.5cm = the 7 parts acetone, 2.5cm = the 5 parts coating and .5 cm + the 1 part catalyst2. Well shaken with a plain top, I swapped to a pump top when coating.

84178
This it the $50 fan forced oven from EBAY.

84179
Cooked second coat, wiped for 30seconds then hit with a hammer.. good coating adhesion.

84180
Cooling down after the final coat and oven run.

They turned out darker than I thought they would but seem fine.
A few with blemishes will be toss into the next run and either re-coated or remelted in the pot.. either way no real loss..

[Gremlin460]

They survived the smash test , and the wipe test on both runs through the oven, a few didn't cover too good, will sort them later and throw back in for a 3rd run next time I am coating.

Seemed quite simple to do from start to finish. Colour is darker than I expected.

Instead of pouring the mix into the shake container I used a pump spray bottle, seemed to be easier and used less than I anticipated.

Now to get the 358 sizer die this week and see if they survive sizing.

The dots on the bottle picture mark the acetone at 7 parts, colour at 5 parts and the catalyst at one part. The amount missing is what was used for the first coat of the 2k boolits.

[HI-TEK]

here are pics of my first attempt..
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They look nice.
It would be useful if you can advise details on each photo.
The smashed one, seems well over cooked, and coating still seems OK.

[Ausglock]

Pump bottles cause problems.

The coating settles out. So the coating in the pickup tube and the nozzle part will not be mixed, no matter how much you shake it.
I an using Pop top popper juice bottles.

Smash looks good.
You could shake a bit better with the first coat. remember... Like a cement mixer not a spin dryer..

[Gremlin460]

They look nice.
It would be useful if you can advise details on each photo.
The smashed one, seems well over cooked, and coating still seems OK.

That is 10 mins exactly at 290-293 by the thermometer.. I mentioned that they came out darker than I thought they would.
They darkened to that colour within 6-7 mins being in the oven

[HI-TEK]

That is 10 mins exactly at 290-293 by the thermometer.. I mentioned that they came out darker than I thought they would.
They darkened to that colour within 6-7 mins being in the oven

290-293????, is that temperature correct???
It should have been 200C, or 392F and would depend on your manufacturers dial details.
According to your 6-7 minutes to colour change, if the temperature you quotes is accurate, no wonder the coating went the colour you described in the 10 minutes.

[Gremlin460]

Smash looks good.
You could shake a bit better with the first coat. remember... Like a cement mixer not a spin dryer..

I actually used a high sided tray 400x200x100.. and these were "roll" coated, eg shaken back and forth then flipped like turning a egg.
I found I kept a nice single layer over the bottom of the tray and suffered no "stacking".
So it was shake front to back/side to side/ flip/ and as they started to slow with the rolling, flipped out onto the old screen door for drying and into the next batch. took less than 15 mins to do the 2000.

[Gremlin460]

290-293????, is that temperature correct???
It should have been 200C, or 392F and would depend on your manufacturers dial details.
According to your 6-7 minutes to colour change, if the temperature you quotes is accurate, no wonder the coating went the colour you described in the 10 minutes.

Sorry Joe, typo 190-193c

[HI-TEK]

Sorry Joe, typo 190-193c

No worries, you gave me a fright.
I am still thinking that the temperature may still have been not correct.
What I have experienced with household ovens is that thermostats do not control well and can easily over shoot by 20+ degrees before element is turned off.
You can get variations in oven from front to back and top to bottom of 40 degrees.
I dont know if your oven has fan or not, but I would suggest that if it has one, may be you need to examine possibility of a second fan with motor outside and shaft and fan inside.
You really should thoroughly investigate your ovens capability and accuracy with controlling internal temperatures and air mix.
The smashed baked projectile seems well over cooked.

[Gremlin460]

In that case they are all over cooked because the smashed one, was just a random one out of the container, looks like I may have to re-melt these and start again..
Yes its a fan forced oven has a big fan in the back, even if these are overdone, the colour was consistant.

I used 2 trays only with 2kg of boolits on each tray , roughtly 400 projectiles per cook.

[Ausglock]

go to the reject shop and get a round plastic 1 gallon bucket for $2. rip off the handle and turf the lid.
Now use this to coat in. Flat coating containers do a **** job. Round ones are great. shake and swirl them and then dump onto the mesh and shake a little to seperate them a bit.

[HI-TEK]

In that case they are all over cooked because the smashed one, was just a random one out of the container, looks like I may have to re-melt these and start again..
Yes its a fan forced oven has a big fan in the back, even if these are overdone, the colour was consistant.

I used 2 trays only with 2kg of boolits on each tray , roughly 400 projectiles per cook.

Can you please post a photo of the ones twice coated and baked.
It will give us better idea of average colour spread in tray.
I can send you coloured baked reds to show colours that can be achieved.
If they smash OK and coating does not come off alloy, and does not wipe off with solvent, they may be OK to use, and the only thing is that the colour may not be what you wanted, but may shoot OK.
It is a pretty good first try effort. I would not be concerned at all.
Just size a few before you decide to do any drastic remelts.

[Ausglock]

In that case they are all over cooked because the smashed one, was just a random one out of the container, looks like I may have to re-melt these and start again..
Yes its a fan forced oven has a big fan in the back, even if these are overdone, the colour was consistant.

I used 2 trays only with 2kg of boolits on each tray , roughtly 400 projectiles per cook.

I'd load a few and fire them. They might be OK.
What calibre are you loading them into?

[Gremlin460]

Relax Trev... Its obvious that I have a issue in the heat treating side of this process, so I will call into JayCar tommorow and purchase a pair of thermocouples that I will fit into the oven.
Its not the application method thats turned these darker than they should be.. but hey, I have 3 hours of experiance with the system.
That I stuffed it up first time really is not overly suprising, nor am I the precious ego person that wont admit they stuffed up.

All good, the ones coated can easilly be recycled, with only the loss of a little coating material.

Its obvious that the oven temp is the crucial hinge-point of the whole excersise, and I need to nail that better, before I will get better results.

Its a learning curve and I am currently enjoying the ride.

PS buckets are cheaper at Bunnings anyway.

These are for 9mm pistol, remember, you already had a shot at me for owning a 92FS :castmine:

[Ausglock]

ha... So you will be sizing .356?
Your first try looks OK to me.

Shoot them before getting drastic and re-melting them.

[Shotgundrums]

Those bullets look cool!

[Gremlin460]

My phone camera isn't doing the colour justice, they actually look like the are made from Milk Chocolate LOL.

So Yes, I put my hand up and say oven was too hot, the little thermometer in the side said just under 200, but its a $20 digital special, So it will be retired and some thermocouples fitted that run to DDM's (Digital Display Multi-meters (before you ask)).

Here are some pic of the finished twice baked items.

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Ok this picture was taken with flash ON and what looks like missing coating or exposed lead is actually a reflection of the flash, these are very shiney boolits. The flash lightens the colour the camera sees, must be slightly metallic.

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These next two pictures are taken without the flash and as close as I could get to the real life colour.
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[Gremlin460]

ha... So you will be sizing .356?
Your first try looks OK to me.

Shoot them before getting drastic and re-melting them.

Bore slugged at 3562mm.
So I am figuring Sizing @ 358, this should give me .0018mm shot swage into the riffling.

The raw casts are slightly out of round, how suprising its a Lee mold, they drop 358x359. In my opinion that's close enough not to need to mess about with buffing the mold. If the coating survives the sizing, then I am going to call them good.

Somewhere between here and Europe is a MiHec 125gn HP mold, So I would like to fix my temp issue before it gets here.

[Ausglock]

That colour is exactly how it should be. Mine are identical to these. It is a deep rose red.
nice. Lay one on it's side and pound it to about 5mm thick. if there is no flaking on the sides, then you are good to shoot. this will not come off when sizing.
Good job.