simple Hi-Tek coating

[Tazza]

I worked for the county government when I was younger. We helped assess property values. While looking at a property I needed to get to the barn. I was stepping over a low barbed wire fence and because of the high grass didn't see the cattle wire on the other side. Caught it right between the legs. Picture Energizer Bunny in reverse and a period of time lying on the ground.

I'm sorry, but i laughed at that one.

Thankfully i haven't tried to BBQ the boys with electricity, but the times i was bitten by an electric fence on my hand/arm, it was not at all fun. I have yet to try and step over one.

The ones we had pulsed every second or two, so gives you a bit of time to jump out of the way, or do your best

[Avenger442]

Yeah. It's one of those funny stories now. But at the time.......

As long as we have :hijack: this discussion here is another one. I had a friend who's Dad taught Electrical Engineering at the local trades school. He once worked as an Engineer for Goodyear at the plant there in town. He and several others were repairing some electrical service outside the plant. He was leaning against a tank when a line with 30,000 volts on it fell on the tank. I asked him why he was not killed. He said it was very low amps. Told me "it's not the volts that get you but the amps". He had an eye that kind of looked off to one side when he looked at you. I always wondered if maybe the volts might have had something to do with it.

Now back to coating. I have proven to myself at last what Joe has said all along. "Thin coats." Thick coated Hi Tek bullets do not perform as well as thin coated. Probably for the same reason we found back quite a few post ago when we tested PC against Hi Tek and found that they were a little less accurate. Not much in handgun but enough to measure. In rifle thick coated Hi Tek bullets vs thin coated at 200 yards is a group about twice as big. All other things equal.

[HI-TEK]

Yeah. It's one of those funny stories now. But at the time.......

As long as we have :hijack: this discussion here is another one. I had a friend who's Dad taught Electrical Engineering at the local trades school. He once worked as an Engineer for Goodyear at the plant there in town. He and several others were repairing some electrical service outside the plant. He was leaning against a tank when a line with 30,000 volts on it fell on the tank. I asked him why he was not killed. He said it was very low amps. Told me "it's not the volts that get you but the amps". He had an eye that kind of looked off to one side when he looked at you. I always wondered if maybe the volts might have had something to do with it.

Now back to coating. I have proven to myself at last what Joe has said all along. "Thin coats." Thick coated Hi Tek bullets do not perform as well as thin coated. Probably for the same reason we found back quite a few post ago when we tested PC against Hi Tek and found that they were a little less accurate. Not much in handgun but enough to measure. In rifle thick coated Hi Tek bullets vs thin coated at 200 yards is a group about twice as big. All other things equal.

Thanks Avenger
The logic used was, that if coating is adequate to separate bore from alloy, this should provide most accuracy.
Rationale is, thicker coats, of whatever is used, has too much "give and compress" and projectile then has opportunity to bounce around inside the bore, resulting in loss off accuracy.
The main reason I had always suggested thin coatings is that the Hi-Tek has ability to stay put and perform during firing, even with very thin coats.
It really does not need thick coats at all to do the work required if the coating withstands the rigors of what is happening in the bore.
Thin coats eliminate the "bounce around" inside the bore.
I have seen, lots of pretty coatings, but all much too thick, (up to 12 and 14 thou thick), and suppliers/manufacturers of these seem to suggest that they work better, and be pretty as well. Unfortunately, these assumptions are not all quite correct. You have proven those facts your self.
With Powder coatings, they do work to an extent. However, as I had previously indicated, it is very difficult to get even and thin coats simply due to the makeup/composition of majority of these powders, and, the application cannot get very uniform coating thicknesses around the alloy.
Unfortunately these physical facts cannot be changed. I am not bagging powder coating, they do a service for some and who are happy with what they produce.
It is a similar situation with two pack type Epoxy type coatings.

[Avenger442]

When I first started coating I was concerned that a thin coat might cause leading in the barrel. And, as I have said before, tried to make a jacket out of Hi Tek. After I understood that I should not do that I began to coat thin. Also quite a few post back, I did a single coat on .308 and shot them at my usual +/-2600 fps. They weren't pretty bullets but didn't lead the barrel. Now I'm not going to recommend that everyone use just one coat but it did work in my gun with that bullet and load.

Typically I use three thin coats on rifle and two on handgun. And preference is the metallic coatings for the rifle. Especially liked the 1035 Gold liquid coat that was the first coating I used. But that's not to say I don't like others. I have used powders 1035 Black, Gun Metal, 500 Bronze, Burnt Orange (my name), Green, Yellow (which was more of a beige) and others and enjoyed shooting all of then due to no lead in the barrel.

I'd like to say best stuff I have ever used. But the truth is I really haven't experienced anything else enough to say that. Because of what I read about other lubricants I have never invested the time, equipment and effort in them. I found Hi Tek when I first started casting back in 2014 and have used it ever since. So I really have little experience with other coatings. Some with wax and grease lubes and some testing with PC is all. What I can say is this stuff works.

[HI-TEK]

When I first started coating I was concerned that a thin coat might cause leading in the barrel. And, as I have said before, tried to make a jacket out of Hi Tek. After I understood that I should not do that I began to coat thin. Also quite a few post back, I did a single coat on .308 and shot them at my usual +/-2600 fps. They weren't pretty bullets but didn't lead the barrel. Now I'm not going to recommend that everyone use just one coat but it did work in my gun with that bullet and load.

Typically I use three thin coats on rifle and two on handgun. And preference is the metallic coatings for the rifle. Especially liked the 1035 Gold liquid coat that was the first coating I used. But that's not to say I don't like others. I have used powders 1035 Black, Gun Metal, 500 Bronze, Burnt Orange (my name), Green, Yellow (which was more of a beige) and others and enjoyed shooting all of then due to no lead in the barrel.

I'd like to say best stuff I have ever used. But the truth is I really haven't experienced anything else enough to say that. Because of what I read about other lubricants I have never invested the time, equipment and effort in them. I found Hi Tek when I first started casting back in 2014 and have used it ever since. So I really have little experience with other coatings. Some with wax and grease lubes and some testing with PC is all. What I can say is this stuff works.

Hi Avenger,
You are now an old hand with coatings, and are comparing to Ausglock with how long each of you used these coatings. I think Ausglock may be an older hand with this stuff. For years, he used to buy from commercial caster until he decided to try his hand with the coating.
In Aus, many have used these coating for some 20+ years. Here, you virtually cant find casts that are lubricated with any other product.
It is understood, that the idea was to make a thick jacket. That is a normal reaction, with thinking that it will stop the Lead fouling.
Applying very thin coats, even thin ones, improves final cosmetic appearance, and the thickness applied, can be as thin as 1 thou of an inch.
Majority of products that are very successful, ends up between 1 and about 1.5 thou and some up to 2 thou. Thicker versions also work OK. In my way of thinking, just using the amount that works is ideal situation. Some like it thick and some like it thin. Some like the final appearance with multiple coats.
You obtain more even total coat with using multiple thin coats, as they work and they are cosmetically very appealing, and best of all, they work.
The reality is, for commercial guys, is to use enough coating to make a pleasing product, and also supply it fast, and final product needs to satisfy users needs.
For hobbyists who like to make their own, the pressure for volume output is not so important, and can make very nice practical products reasonably quickly.
What seems to be a side benefit that is mainly not considered, that using these coatings, also reduces the need to buy various cleaners and products, and corrosive chemicals to clean bores, and it saves money, further, reduces bore corrosion with trying to remove various deposits with these cleaners.

[Tazza]

Hi Avenger,
You are now an old hand with coatings, and are comparing to Ausglock with how long each of you used these coatings. I think Ausglock may be an older hand with this stuff. For years, he used to buy from commercial caster until he decided to try his hand with the coating.
In Aus, many have used these coating for some 20+ years. Here, you virtually cant find casts that are lubricated with any other product.
It is understood, that the idea was to make a thick jacket. That is a normal reaction, with thinking that it will stop the Lead fouling.
Applying very thin coats, even thin ones, improves final cosmetic appearance, and the thickness applied, can be as thin as 1 thou of an inch.
Majority of products that are very successful, ends up between 1 and about 1.5 thou and some up to 2 thou. Thicker versions also work OK. In my way of thinking, just using the amount that works is ideal situation. Some like it thick and some like it thin. Some like the final appearance with multiple coats.
You obtain more even total coat with using multiple thin coats, as they work and they are cosmetically very appealing, and best of all, they work.
The reality is, for commercial guys, is to use enough coating to make a pleasing product, and also supply it fast, and final product needs to satisfy users needs.
For hobbyists who like to make their own, the pressure for volume output is not so important, and can make very nice practical products reasonably quickly.
What seems to be a side benefit that is mainly not considered, that using these coatings, also reduces the need to buy various cleaners and products, and corrosive chemicals to clean bores, and it saves money, further, reduces bore corrosion with trying to remove various deposits with these cleaners.

I had some cast that were not the desired colour and were sized to .3575, i added another 3 coats to them as i knew exactly what the starting diameter was, measuring each coat to show how thick it was being applied. first coat measured .358, second coat: .3585 third and final coat was .3590, so each coat is only a quarter of a thou thick, so it adds half a thou to the diameter. Is that too much? i have no idea, all i know is with my alloy, that is softer than commercial casters like Trevor that runs 2-6-92, they don't lead up my barrels, even when doing 1400 or more FPS.

Another thing about coating vs lube is to keep customers and even casters from touching as much lead. After casting they need sizing then packaging, once coated, they are now sealed and no lead on the outside to be exposed to, for me, that's a plus as shooting we are exposed already, anything that cuts down on it is a good thing. I touch enough lead when in ingot form, once they are cast, i do my best to not touch anything til after coating just in case it causued bonding issues.

[dikman]

I just received some of the mold release stuff from Joe, both the 500+ and the bonded, to see how they would work with my problematic brass mold. I scrubbed the mold with brake cleaner and then acetone and applied the 500+ then cast 450 boolits. I still have some issues but overall I'm happy with the result. The mold is a custom made 4-cavity brass which throws 141 gn, 0.365" smooth-sided pills, crimp groove but no lube groove. One of the cavities has issues with the boolit sticking but this is a mechanical issue that might get worse if I try to fix it.
They definitely drop easier with the coating, even the problem cavity. My sprue mallet has a short, sharp nail sticking out of one side which I used to dislodge any sticking boolits, with the coating applied even if they stick they still release much easier when poked with the nail.
I also coated the sprue plate, top and bottom. I occasionally had a bit of lead smearing but don't get any with the coating plus the sprue puddle drops clean from the sprue plate. Bit of a bonus that.

Next step is to scrub the mold again and apply the bonded release and cast some more. I already have several thousand cast and coated but, hey, why not do some more?:lol:

My .44-40 mold (Lee ally) doesn't give much trouble but I might as well try the bonded on that too. Perhaps my fishing sinker molds too while I'm at it.:)

[Ausglock]

the Bonded schitz all over the 500+.
I'm throwing the 500+ in the bin.

[dikman]

Should make the rubbish slide out of the bin more easily?:lol:

[Ausglock]

Well...
I'm lovin the Bonded Mold release.
Treated and ran 125Conical molds today for 1 hr. 3000 bullets later and they were dropping like flys.
Then treated and changed to 156RNFP for 1 hr. another 3000 bullets and dropping free, no worries.
As a final go. treated and ran 125gn SWC for 1 hr. 3000 of these were dropping out easy as...

Great stuff.
But... don't use it on the top of the sprue plates as it slows down the solidification of the sprue.

[kevin c]

Coming to the US anytime soon?

[HI-TEK]

Well...
I'm loving the Bonded Mold release.
Treated and ran 125Conical molds today for 1 hr. 3000 bullets later and they were dropping like fly's.
Then treated and changed to 156RNFP for 1 hr. another 3000 bullets and dropping free, no worries.
As a final go. treated and ran 125gn SWC for 1 hr. 3000 of these were dropping out easy as...

Great stuff.
But... don't use it on the top of the sprue plates as it slows down the solidification of the sprue.


Great results.
I would suggest, to use the non bonding version for Sprue plates area as the bonded version does offer some insulation, and that is why it may slow down alloy chill rates at the top. The non bonded version has much less insulating property and should work OK there.
Non bonded version can be topped up, with brushing on the Sprue plate area, to stop build up of spatter. The bonded type release coated areas inside Moulds should not need topping up.

To Kevin C
You need to make contact with Alan Esterly. I think he may be having limited stocks in a few days, of both bonding and non bonding grades..
Again, first in best dressed.

[Tazza]

Well...
I'm lovin the Bonded Mold release.
Treated and ran 125Conical molds today for 1 hr. 3000 bullets later and they were dropping like flys.
Then treated and changed to 156RNFP for 1 hr. another 3000 bullets and dropping free, no worries.
As a final go. treated and ran 125gn SWC for 1 hr. 3000 of these were dropping out easy as...

Great stuff.
But... don't use it on the top of the sprue plates as it slows down the solidification of the sprue.

Looking forward to giving it a go in a week or two, it will be ideal for my recent mould haul that have some with mild pitting. The big test will be if it can prevent ir slow lead build up between the mould and sprue cutter.

You mention that it's not good on top of the cutter, i'll be sure to keep it to the under side. I wonder why it is making the lead solidify slower when on top of the sprue cutter.

[HI-TEK]

Looking forward to giving it a go in a week or two, it will be ideal for my recent mould haul that have some with mild pitting. The big test will be if it can prevent ir slow lead build up between the mould and sprue cutter.

You mention that it's not good on top of the cutter, I'll be sure to keep it to the under side. I wonder why it is making the lead solidify slower when on top of the sprue cutter.

Tazza
Read previous blog number 14262
The Bonding product has some insulating property, which seems to slow heat transfer rates to and from alloy.

From previous tests, using the non bonding 500+, simply brushed onto all internal areas, including into corrosion holes, that badly pitted Mould performed with perfection all day without re-application.
As suggested in blog number 14262, very sparingly, brush on the powdered non bonding version (500+) onto Sprue cutter surfaces.
Surfaces only need what can be described as a stain.

[Ausglock]

The big test will be if it can prevent ir slow lead build up between the mould and sprue cutter.


Zero lead smear on the mold top or the underside of the Sprueplate.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=dikman;5 I occasionally had a bit of lead smearing but don't get any with the coating plus the sprue puddle drops clean from the sprue plate. Bit of a bonus that.

My guess is, that Lead smearing may be due to alloy not quite setting before Sprue cutter is slicing of the excess.
I suggest, may be wrongly, that alloy may be at higher temperatures to get adequate fill, and, in some automated systems, there may not be enough cooling taking place, so the cutter smears the molten alloy as a thin film.
With next batch, and also possibility of having varying alloy composition, that same casting temperature that caused smearing, actually works, as that newer batch of alloy may crystallize more quickly before Sprue cutter actuates. It may also be a contributing factor of ambient temperatures being cooler on days where alloy sets more quickly and there is no alloy smearing.

[HI-TEK]

Zero lead smear on the mold top or the underside of the Sprueplate.

I am suggesting/guessing, that you are casting at just barely adequate temperatures to get fast cooling & setting of poured alloy.
The cutter is slicing solid & set alloy, so there is no smearing taking place.
The release agent/s simply stops alloy, and spatter sticking to surfaces from the pour.

[HI-TEK]

.
Q1 The big test will be if it can prevent ir slow lead build up between the mould and sprue cutter.

You mention that it's not good on top of the cutter, i'll be sure to keep it to the under side.
Q2 I wonder why it is making the lead solidify slower when on top of the sprue cutter.

Eazza,
My suggestion to question 1 above, I suspect, that build up between Sprue Cutter and Mould starts with molten Lead smearing initially.
This is a thin later that seems to lift cutter, and allowing more thin alloy film to deposit on original film. As per my suggestions, the smear seems to be molten alloy.

My answer and suggestion is to Q2, that alloy on top is being cooled by air. Air is a poor conducted of heat.
If alloy is too hot, the excess will not set before Sprue cutter is actuated. Cutter in fact is smearing molten alloy. That smearing can be made worse if the alloy is too hot, and there is also an insulating agent preventing adequate cooling on the waste with the minimum surface contact by the excess.
I could be totally off the mark, but that is the way I see it.

[Ausglock]

I am suggesting/guessing, that you are casting at just barely adequate temperatures to get fast cooling & setting of poured alloy.
The cutter is slicing solid & set alloy, so there is no smearing taking place.
The release agent/s simply stops alloy, and spatter sticking to surfaces from the pour.

Nope. always cast at 710 Deg F.
Just gotta know your gear and how to work it.

[HI-TEK]

Nope. always cast at 710 Deg F.
Just gotta know your gear and how to work it.



I agree.
But is smearing, caused by the spreading of the molten alloy by cutter?
If alloy is set to a solid there should not be any smearing during cutting??? I don't know as I said, but it certainly looks that way to me.

I am referring to others that may be casting at different temperatures than what you use.

I recall commercial caster adding more cooling blowers to automated casters to try and set the poured alloy more quickly, as they were not as fussy with casting alloy temperatures, but wanted faster output and producing less faulty casts.

[Ausglock]

the hole in the sprueplate has to be sharp and the plate flat.

[HI-TEK]

the hole in the sprueplate has to be sharp and the plate flat.

That is 100% correct.
But I am thinking, if excess not set or cooled adequately, would the cutter be trying to cut a liquid.
Both the plate and cutter can be sharp, but how would this deal with a liquid partially set alloy?
Just wondering....

[Jatz357]

From tests I have completed using the 500+ the product is fantastic. I have a couple of moulds that don't like releasing one cavity and after treating with 500+ the problem reduced dramatically. I apply a thin dusting to the complete mould surface and sprue cutter and that also stops lead smearing in the vent lines if the mould gets a little hot. It's easy to apply and lasts quite a while.

Looking forward to testing the bonded version.

[Jatz357]

Also completed another infrared oven Hi-Tek bake test the other day.

This test was baking the coating without pre-heating the projectiles after allowing the coating to air dry.

1st coat was applied and ambient temperature was around 12 degrees C, projectiles were left to dry for about 90 minutes. After this time they were put on the conveyor. Starting temp of the projectiles was around 10 degrees C before baking. After bake and cool down they past the smash test with no problems.

2nd coat was allowed to air dry for just 20 minutes, ambient temp was about the same. They were run through the oven again and past the smash test.

From previous testing and discussion with Hi-Tek Joe it appears infrared cures the coating from the inside out and this may be why the coating can be baked without pre-heating. Pre-heating will remove / reduce any moisture, trapped moister will turn to steam and force the coating out of the lead pores and cause poor adhesion.

Conventional ovens and radiant heat will skin the coating and cure from outside in. This skinning affect can trap moisture.

More testing needs to be completed to confirm whether it is advisable to bake Hi-Tek using an infrared oven with limited drying time and no pre-heat. Ambient temperature, humidity and dew point may have an affect of final results too.

[Ausglock]

I have some Ceramic IR heating panels on the way.
I have a 900mm wide oven I'm going to gut and retrofit with the IR panels.
See if I can blow myself up...lol

[Tazza]

Jatz - I'm wondering if the added warming effect of when the cast enter the oven helps to dry them that last little bit if needed, as they don't just get whacked to 200c in one hit, they slowly get exposed to the IR heat so they warm up slower as they enter the oven, vs being thrown into a regular oven that is already heated to 200c. On a side note, boo on the cold weather, our mornings get to 8 or so c, but during the day mid 20s :)

Joe - i'm thinking the same for lead smear, as i'm currently using a master caster that holds only one mould, it gets hot, the fan does cool it, but possibly not enough to ensure the lead isn't solid enough to not leave residue on the sprue plate. Being a softer metal, i'm not 100% sure if the lead needs to be molted to transfer, it is softer so you can still get transfer, the hotter it is, the easier it will be. You are spot on about a little gets under there, allowing more to get under with additional pours.

I cast at quite low temperatures, about 330-340c depending on the blend i run, it's only 10-20c over the melting point of the blend. So quite cool in the scheme of things. If i cycle things slower to allow the mould to cool off more, i get bumps on the base where the sprue is cut off, even with new sharp sprue plates, it's just how my machine runs, i know it well, just as Trevor knows his machine. It's a trade off for me, clean sprue cutters or have bumps on the base of my cast. The non bonded 500+ did help, but it didn't stop it with how i run my machine, but it may help if i run it cooler and not get the bump, i have not tested it in this way yet, but it will make for a good experiment.

I just sold my last batch of 83kg of 180 grain .30 cals, so it's an excuse to get to casting more and testing the 500+

[dikman]

A timely discussion regarding the bonded version as I'm about to try it today. I've coated the mold but haven't cured it yet and after getting good results with the 500+ on the sprue plate I figured the bonded had to be better so coated the plate too. I'll clean the sprue plate and re-coat with 500+ after reading this.
As for the smearing what Joe says about the lead being too soft when cutting makes sense, at least in my case. A brass mold is worse for this because it's a bit like soldering when it gets too hot.:roll:

[Tazza]

A timely discussion regarding the bonded version as I'm about to try it today. I've coated the mold but haven't cured it yet and after getting good results with the 500+ on the sprue plate I figured the bonded had to be better so coated the plate too. I'll clean the sprue plate and re-coat with 500+ after reading this.
As for the smearing what Joe says about the lead being too soft when cutting makes sense, at least in my case. A brass mold is worse for this because it's a bit like soldering when it gets too hot.:roll:

That was my concern with brass moulds too, all mine are aluminium or steel/cast iron. It has always concerned me with how to remove it if it was to actually stick in a cavity

Looking forward to hearing how you go with your casting session.

[dikman]

No real problems, I cast 170 for the .38 and 170 of the .429. I still had a slight issue with one particular cavity in the brass mold but even when some didn't want to drop they were easy to dislodge. I'm not sure, though, if I have an even coating in a couple of the cavities.The other is a Lee 2-cavity which didn't give me any issues, I figure the larger heavier boolit helped.

I'm pretty pleased with the 500+ on the sprue plates. In the past I would occasionally have the puddle sticking in the pour holes of the sprue plate but I had no problems with either mold this time, the puddles dropped clean. Might be just co-incidence but I thought the boolits looked real nice and smooth.:-)

I have a Lee 2-cavity for the .38, which I haven't used since getting the brass mold but I suppose I should give it a try sometime and see how that performs with the coating and smaller boolit.

I just wish I'd had this stuff before casting the thousands that I've already done.:roll:

[Tazza]

My lee 6 bangers when i used them, were hard to get the sprues to drop. I'd make sure i laid enough lead on them to join them all up, but i'd need to beat on them pretty hard to get them to release the long sprue.

I'd like to think the bigger the bullet, the more shrinkage you get to assist in letting them drop.

[Stephen Cohen]

My lee 6 bangers when i used them, were hard to get the sprues to drop. I'd make sure i laid enough lead on them to join them all up, but i'd need to beat on them pretty hard to get them to release the long sprue.

I'd like to think the bigger the bullet, the more shrinkage you get to assist in letting them drop.

I found it necessary to run the 6 banger and alloy a little hotter and fill from the bottom cavity to the top, reason being the camming action of those moulds has very little cutting power the closer to the handles you are and this is why so many seem to break when forced open. I keep my MAP gas near when casting just in case the alloy gets a bit cold. I shunned those 6 bangers for years and now I realise how silly I was or am depending on who you ask. The old 500 release agent was great so the new one must be from the gods. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

I found it necessary to run the 6 banger and alloy a little hotter and fill from the bottom cavity to the top, reason being the camming action of those moulds has very little cutting power the closer to the handles you are and this is why so many seem to break when forced open. I keep my MAP gas near when casting just in case the alloy gets a bit cold. I shunned those 6 bangers for years and now I realise how silly I was or am depending on who you ask. The old 500 release agent was great so the new one must be from the gods. Regards Stephen

The only time i broke the handle was when i didn't have the sprue fully closed when i filled it, i know the instructions said this, but there are always times you don't fully close it, causing there not to be the cam action to cut it and you snap it when hauling on it.

[HI-TEK]

Coming to the US anytime soon?

Kevin c,
I believe that both release agents are in US, as of last Friday. Only limited amounts.

[OldBearHair]

Need ordering details please and Thank you kindly, OBH

[Avenger442]

Need ordering details please and Thank you kindly, OBH

Try contacting Alan Esterly at HPBulletCoatings@gmail.com

[Ziptar]

Has anyone tried mixing colors. I'd like a more copper jacket color, bronze is closest juding from the pictures. Before I ordered figurged I'd ask. Thought I might try mixing Red Copper with Gold, might lighten / orange it up a little.

[Ausglock]

Has anyone tried mixing colors. I'd like a more copper jacket color, bronze is closest juding from the pictures. Before I ordered figurged I'd ask. Thought I might try mixing Red Copper with Gold, might lighten / orange it up a little.

Mixing colours is not an exact science.
What you think you will get is not what you get.

[Ziptar]

Mixing colours is not an exact science.
What you think you will get is not what you get.

Right, I get that, with metallics indeed it's not as simple as "yellow and blue make green". My question was more to the point of mixing colors and experimenting with it won't have any impact on the performance of the Hi-Tek coating itself. It could be purple with pink polka dots as long as it performs to spec.

[HI-TEK]

Right, I get that, with metallics indeed it's not as simple as "yellow and blue make green". My question was more to the point of mixing colors and experimenting with it won't have any impact on the performance of the Hi-Tek coating itself. It could be purple with pink polka dots as long as it performs to spec.

Zipstar
These Hi-Tek coatings over years, have been blended and mixed in all proportions and colours by people who want an individual finish.
This mixing, has not affected performance of final coating if applied correctly.
There should not be any ill effects by mixing, but I am just curious, as to why you would want to consider mixing colours?
People had produced a Cammo finish with these coatings. I will try to get the picture uploaded so you can see how they finished up.

[Tazza]

Right, I get that, with metallics indeed it's not as simple as "yellow and blue make green". My question was more to the point of mixing colors and experimenting with it won't have any impact on the performance of the Hi-Tek coating itself. It could be purple with pink polka dots as long as it performs to spec.

I don't believe there is a performance issue, others have done it before. If you are just playing for yourself and don't care that each batch will be different, i don't believe it's a problem.

[Avenger442]

Right, I get that, with metallics indeed it's not as simple as "yellow and blue make green". My question was more to the point of mixing colors and experimenting with it won't have any impact on the performance of the Hi-Tek coating itself. It could be purple with pink polka dots as long as it performs to spec.

I was in the habit of taking several colors and mixing them just to not throw away leftovers. I had no performance problems.

[Ausglock]

talking about throwing away..
I had to make room in my storage area on sunday.
Emptied out 8Kg of various HITEK colours into the bin to reclaim the jars.
Still have around 20Kgs of powder still to get rid of.

[Stephen Cohen]

talking about throwing away..
I had to make room in my storage area on sunday.
Emptied out 8Kg of various HITEK colours into the bin to reclaim the jars.
Still have around 20Kgs of powder still to get rid of.

There was a time when I believed you told us these things to be informative, now I know your sitting back with a smile wondering who you have salivating. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

There was a time when I believed you told us these things to be informative, now I know your sitting back with a smile wondering who you have salivating. Regards Stephen
:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: would I do that??????

[Tazza]

talking about throwing away..
I had to make room in my storage area on sunday.
Emptied out 8Kg of various HITEK colours into the bin to reclaim the jars.
Still have around 20Kgs of powder still to get rid of.

Time for someone to go dumpster diving at your joint :)

[Ausglock]

Time for someone to go dumpster diving at your joint :)

ha.. J. R. Richards has it now..

[Tazza]

ha.. J. R. Richards has it now..

Foiled again, they are being too efficient!

[HI-TEK]

Time for someone to go dumpster diving at your joint :)

You should have seen the clouds of Glitter gold, red copper, bronze and various red dust rising out of the bin. It looked like a witches brew.
Ausglock must have gone insane as how he was chucking the powders around. I noticed he stood opposite side of the wind and watched the glow and glitter travel down the road.....
He must have thought it was fireworks night without explosions...

[Ausglock]

ha.... I actually tipped the powder into a clear plastic bag.
when I knotted it up, the different colours were layered in the bag. similar to the jars people fill with different coloured sands.

[dikman]

Is it just me or does that seem like a real waste?:shock:

[Tazza]

Is it just me or does that seem like a real waste?:shock:

You need to find the dump that his jar went to! Mix it all together and get a weird and wonderful colour mixture.

[Ausglock]

Is it just me or does that seem like a real waste?:shock:

Not really a waste.
Most of them were colours that were horrible or did not work.
A lot of them were less than 10 grams. some had been sitting on the shelf and had been affected by light discolouring the powder.
Besides......I'm not allowed to give or sell any of the test samples as per the agreement with HITEK.
If I were to sell or give away, people would drive me crazy wanting this and that mailed here and there...
I'm a grumpy old coot with a very low tolerance for fools.

[Tazza]

Not really a waste.
Most of them were colours that were horrible or did not work.
A lot of them were less than 10 grams. some had been sitting on the shelf and had been affected by light discolouring the powder.
Besides......I'm not allowed to give or sell any of the test samples as per the agreement with HITEK.
If I were to sell or give away, people would drive me crazy wanting this and that mailed here and there...
I'm a grumpy old coot with a very low tolerance for fools.

But i wanted the other green, this isn't green enough!

You, a grumpy old coot? no way, i wouldn't believe that :)

Sadly, there are plenty of idiots out there, as long as you keep them elsewhere, it's all good.

[HI-TEK]

But i wanted the other green, this isn't green enough!

You, a grumpy old coot? no way, i wouldn't believe that :)

Sadly, there are plenty of idiots out there, as long as you keep them elsewhere, it's all good.

Tazza
Which Green are you referring to?
There is a Zombie Green, Dark Green, which is a bit darker, and there is a Dark Green V-2 which is very dark.

[Tazza]

Tazza
Which Green are you referring to?
There is a Zombie Green, Dark Green, which is a bit darker, and there is a Dark Green V-2 which is very dark.

No matter what green i got off him, i'd say it was wrong :) Not sure why my wife calls me a butt head, but this may have something to do it with.....

I never knew there was a green V2, one day we need to make up a colour chart of all your colours with a picture of our cast.

[HI-TEK]

No matter what green i got off him, i'd say it was wrong :) Not sure why my wife calls me a butt head, but this may have something to do it with.....

I never knew there was a green V2, one day we need to make up a colour chart of all your colours with a picture of our cast.

Tazza
Sent you a PM.

[dikman]

Not really a waste.
Besides......I'm not allowed to give or sell any of the test samples as per the agreement with HITEK.
If I were to sell or give away, people would drive me crazy wanting this and that mailed here and there...
I'm a grumpy old coot with a very low tolerance for fools.

I figured that would probably be the case with the stuff Joe gives you. I just hate seeing things being wasted, how I was brought up I suppose (I don't throw things out until they're absolutely beyond repair).
As for the colours being horrible you just need to keep mixing them and eventually you're bound to come up with something usable.:lol:

[Tazza]

I figured that would probably be the case with the stuff Joe gives you. I just hate seeing things being wasted, how I was brought up I suppose (I don't throw things out until they're absolutely beyond repair).
As for the colours being horrible you just need to keep mixing them and eventually you're bound to come up with something usable.:lol:

Not always just the colours not being right, it could have been samples that the chemistry was not yet sorted out for that colour, hense the testing and no point keeping them.

An interesting thing would be to test a known good sample that is as old as possible and see if it still works to prove it is shelf stable, being powder i'd suspect it would be. After it has been dissolved in Acetone, then it all changes. I don't store my left overs in the fridge, and it will only last a few months before it starts to clump up, but i try not to over mix too much for batches, so making it fresh every time is not an issue and i know it's good.

[Avenger442]

Joe
Do you know how long the powder stays usable for it's intended use of keeping lead out of my barrel? I know from experience that the two part liquid coating darkens over time. How about the powder?

[Ausglock]

I had a sample of the gold 1035 that was around 5 years old.
I coated some 44 240gnRNFP with it a few months ago.
worked perfectly.
Even the colour was right.

[Avenger442]

I had a sample of the gold 1035 that was around 5 years old.
I coated some 44 240gnRNFP with it a few months ago.
worked perfectly.
Even the colour was right.

That was the powder version?

[Ziptar]

Zipstar
These Hi-Tek coatings over years, have been blended and mixed in all proportions and colours by people who want an individual finish.
This mixing, has not affected performance of final coating if applied correctly.
There should not be any ill effects by mixing, but I am just curious, as to why you would want to consider mixing colours?
People had produced a Cammo finish with these coatings. I will try to get the picture uploaded so you can see how they finished up.

Thank you. Ordered some gold and red copper along with some lube. Looking forward to trying them out. Don't have a real reason for mixing other than having something that approaches a copper jacket color. I'll experiment and mix a little of each just to see what I get.

[Ausglock]

That was the powder version?

Yes Sir.
I still have the very first bottle of red copper liquid coating Joe sent me back in 2013. It's been living in the fridge in the shed.
Might get it out one day and mix & coat with it just for S&Gs to see how it goes..

[Avenger442]

Thanks for the input Ausglock.

I also still have a little of the first coating I bought in 2014. It is the liquid 1035 Gold. It has been stored in the basement all this time. The last time I used it the bullets turned out a little dark but were fine when loaded and shot. No lead. Just ordered some 1035 Gold powder version.

With the liquid being good for that length of time I would expect the powder to be good for 15-20 years just sitting on the shelf. But I thought I would ask Joe what he thought.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks for the input Ausglock.

I also still have a little of the first coating I bought in 2014. It is the liquid 1035 Gold. It has been stored in the basement all this time. The last time I used it the bullets turned out a little dark but were fine when loaded and shot. No lead. Just ordered some 1035 Gold powder version.

With the liquid being good for that length of time I would expect the powder to be good for 15-20 years just sitting on the shelf. But I thought I would ask Joe what he thought.

Avenger
Thanks for the question.
My suggestion is to store the material out of sunlight in a well sealed container. We noticed that in clear jars the powder directly in contact with jar internally, the film on container internal surface became discolored by sunlight after a period . Upon opening the jar, the rest/bulk seems perfectly OK. Shaking sealed jar seems to mix in the discolored material, and seems not to affect final performance.
I would not go as far as suggesting, that the product as a powder will be stable for years, but I could be wrong, with people supplying information of using powders after a couple of years and working OK.

[Avenger442]

Understand the caution in you answer Joe.

It looks like we will see how the powder holds up that is stored in my unheated uncooled basement. Do have humidity control. My oldest powder version is 5-6 years old. I think more toward the 6 years. Will have to get it out use it and report back. Think I'll use it to coat the 9mm bullets I am casting. 9mm should be a good test. Would expect no change in keeping the lead out. And as, I remember, this color is the Gun Metal. Will probably see no change in the color since it is already dark. May have a go at the next oldest if I can figure out which color it is.

[Avenger442]

Al right, have the bonded mold release powder in hand. And just to make sure I mix it right, when it says 5 gm per 150 ml of acetone that is a weighed 5 gm right?
Just asking the dumb question:mrgreen:.

[Ausglock]

Correct.... 5 grams by weight to 150mls of acetone or MEK.
Also.. the bonded release can be removed with acetone if you need to clean your molds or do maintainance to them.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;5201589]Understand the caution in you answer Joe.


Avenger,
The coatings are made and supplied with users intent to use them.
I don't understand why any one would need to store the coating for years. It is designed to be used in reasonable timeframe. I understand that some folk don't produce and coat many projectiles.
The facts are, the Hi-Tek goes a very long way with using small amounts, so, buying quantities needed regularly, to suit volume production needs, is better option. If you have any left over, you can be assured it will work after storing it for a reasonable time. This eliminates questions arising about years of stability and use ability of stored coating .

[Tazza]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;5201589]Understand the caution in you answer Joe.


Avenger,
The coatings are made and supplied with users intent to use them.
I don't understand why any one would need to store the coating for years. It is designed to be used in reasonable timeframe. I understand that some folk don't produce and coat many projectiles.
The facts are, the Hi-Tek goes a very long way with using small amounts, so, buying quantities needed regularly, to suit volume production needs, is better option. If you have any left over, you can be assured it will work after storing it for a reasonable time. This eliminates questions arising about years of stability and use ability of stored coating .

When i was younger and i thought "smarter" (2 years or so ago) i was unaware that mixed hitek powder does indeed go off if left in the Brisbane heat, even though it was in a shed, it clumped up and did not dissolve once being left for a few months. My idea was to mix up decent sized batches and use what i needed and leave it for next time. I later found out that was not a wise move, after Joe advised me to just mix what i need plus a small buffer to know there was enough. Easy enough to calculate how much you need when you know your application rate per KG.

If it's mixed fresh, you know the colour will be right each and every time. For the amount of waste generated by making new batches if the remaining mixed hi-tek is not used fast enough is really not an issue, it's only a few bucks worth that is disposed of. I'm happy to mix it fresh instead of having to spend hours re-casting if i applied "stale" hitek and it did not work. I only ever seem to dump 30-50ml which i'm ok with.

[Ausglock]

I mix 5 or 6 200ml batches and store in the fridge.
Colour is fine and never had an issue.
some will be in there for a few months or so.

[Avenger442]

Mixed and coated with my oldest powder version Gun Metal last night. Mixed as expected, coated well and looks like it will be as it was the first time I used it. This powder is about six years old. Will report back on the bake, subsequent coats, and how it performs.

[Burnt Fingers]

I keep the mix in the refrigerator. I used up some two and a half year old mix the other day. It worked just fine. If I leave it out it won't make it through the summer in in North Texas. Clumps up and turns nasty.

[Avenger442]

I had some mixed coating that went solid a couple of years ago. Bottle was not sealed and all the acetone evaporated. It is nearly impossible to get it back into a liquid state. Probably could have ground it up but it was kind of soft for that and probably would have just gummed up what ever I used to grind it. I tried just putting it in acetone. The small pieces dissolved after about a month. But the large lumps were still there six months later.. Eventually just threw it away. Don't have a refrigerator in the basement so cannot refrig the mixed coating.

My questions were not directed toward the mixed but wanted to know how long the powder itself would keep. I mixed the six year old powder and coated the 9mm and some 45-70s with it. Had to cook a little longer for some reason. The color is off, not due to longer bake, but they pass wipe and smash test. Don't expect any problems but, going to see if the insulating from leading is still there. Loading some time this week or next. Just wondering is the powder unmixed good for 10 years or so. Not really concerned about the color being a little off.

It will be some time before we can use the range. It has been raining here off and on for a couple of weeks. Range gets flooded. 25 yard range dries up after about a week of dry weather. Water pools on this range due to shooters digging up the ground with their bullets instead of letting them hit the berm. 200 yard range will be muddy until we have about a week and a half of dry weather. It has a wet weather spring running in it. So may be some time to testing of these loads.

[popper]

Jatz would be interesting to find the absorption/transmission cure bands of the HiTek. H2O basically has none so drying would be from normal conductive heating from the HiTek coating/alloy temp. Elec. elements work fine but the 'window' needs to be quartz as window glass doesn't transmit long IR very well. Evidently IR cooking is THE way for PC/HiTek commercial cooking. The high specific heat/conductivity of lead is what takes the time in oven.
Basically appears that IR heats the lead which then melts and cures the coating. So the cure is from the inside to outside as you thought. Like the UV cured stuff, IR cured would be neat as it takes MUCH less energy. HiTek says the chems for UV curing are too expensive for bullet coating.

[HI-TEK]

Jatz would be interesting to find the absorption/transmission cure bands of the HiTek. H2O basically has none so drying would be from normal conductive heating from the HiTek coating/alloy temp. Elec. elements work fine but the 'window' needs to be quartz as window glass doesn't transmit long IR very well. Evidently IR cooking is THE way for PC/HiTek commercial cooking. The high specific heat/conductivity of lead is what takes the time in oven.
Basically appears that IR heats the lead which then melts and cures the coating. So the cure is from the inside to outside as you thought. Like the UV cured stuff, IR cured would be neat as it takes MUCH less energy. HiTek says the chems for UV curing are too expensive for bullet coating.

Popper,

As we have initially thought and later confirmed, IR seems to work with heating the alloy, so the alloy actually heats up coating outwards, forcing outwards moisture and vapors.
With conventional baking, the introduction of coated alloys into an oven, the sudden heat initially seems to make a thin, dense, highly cross linked and cured coating Skin/film on the surface, and, if coating has not been dried adequately, this sealed "skin" can cause the loss of adhesion due to super heated steam formation between alloy and coating, that simply lifts off the coating from the alloy..

With IR heating does not have the requirement to heat large amounts of air, which has to be constantly circulated to transfer contained heat into the coated alloy. The IR is absorbed by the metal, which is seemingly passing through the coating. It is the heat in the alloy generated by Infra Red that cures the coatings.
What has also been indicated, that there seems less requirement to dry the coatings well when using IR baking. This is very good for mass production, as it certainly speeds up output, by not having the delay time caused by drying requirements. Jatz can elaborate more on what he has done and discovered. He is coating and baking at very low ambient temperature conditions.
From what I have heard, this set up with UV curing, seems to take away the need for a separate drying process. It is a major benefit, especially for commercial casters as reduces energy requirements, and may speed up production rates by some 30% or more.

Due to the strong insulating property of H-Tek, conventional ovens need higher temperatures for longer periods to drive the heat into the alloys.
You are right, with IR curing, the heat actually travels from alloy outwards, so the insulating property of the coatings is not a barrier but in fact prevents heat loss from alloy, that results with faster curing rates, energy saving and much more even colors, even with overbaking.

With UV curing, the reins used for UV cured coatings, contain specific chemicals that are activated by UV energy, that starts crosslinking process. I don't know how much heat may be also involved in the UV curing process. I really don't know if UV would work with Hi-Tek as it does not contain any reactive chemicals that would initiate cross linking with UV radiation.
It is not clear, if UV light to heat alloy, would penetrate coating, without burning the coating.

I know that sunlight will damage the uncured, as is coating. It is not known, which energy wavelengths do the damage and which ones are beneficial.
May be that can be another research project, especially if the costs are warranted.

[ioon44]

"I know that sunlight will damage the uncured, as is coating."

Can you explain more about sunlight damage the uncured, as it is coating?

I use a lot of Candy Apple Red and dry the coated in sunlight at up to 140 deg F (60 deg C) for a few hours.

Should I remove them from the sun light after 30 min?

[HI-TEK]

"I know that sunlight will damage the uncured, as is coating."

Can you explain more about sunlight damage the uncured, as it is coating?

I use a lot of Candy Apple Red and dry the coated in sunlight at up to 140 deg F (60 deg C) for a few hours.

Should I remove them from the sun light after 30 min?

Ioon44
I was referring to product being stored in clear plastic containers which are transparent, and, after many weeks and probably months, it was noticed, that the product film touching plastic container internally had discolored.
In terms of drying, in full sunlight, many have been doing this for years, without apparent ill effects.
Excessive time in direct sun, may change final colour finish. How much is not known.
Drying time, is only required long enough to allow baking that will result in good product and passes tests. If your coated cast gets to about 40-50C, it should be adequate for baking.
The coating advice is, to test bake a few at intervals, to determine if coating is dry enough. If test baking a few, and they pass baking and other tests, the rest should also be ready to bake.
I dont really think that having product sitting in sun at 60C for hours is a good idea.

[ioon44]

I got mixed up on what you were referring to, my fault.

In hot weather I put the coated bullets out in the full sun and go and do something else for a few hours. I know hey are ready to bake in 30 min or less so I will bring them back in the shop after 30 min and not hours.

Thanks for the reply.

[Jatz357]

Jatz would be interesting to find the absorption/transmission cure bands of the HiTek. H2O basically has none so drying would be from normal conductive heating from the HiTek coating/alloy temp. Elec. elements work fine but the 'window' needs to be quartz as window glass doesn't transmit long IR very well. Evidently IR cooking is THE way for PC/HiTek commercial cooking. The high specific heat/conductivity of lead is what takes the time in oven.
Basically appears that IR heats the lead which then melts and cures the coating. So the cure is from the inside to outside as you thought. Like the UV cured stuff, IR cured would be neat as it takes MUCH less energy. HiTek says the chems for UV curing are too expensive for bullet coating.

Popper,

There is still much to do in the way of testing Hi-Tek with infrared curing.

I don't use nor recommend halogen infrared as it may be too intense on the surface and will possibly burn the coating before it heats the lead to cure temp. (halogen, good for pizza ovens or T-shirt dryers) and cause trapped moisture to turn into superheated steam and cause loss of coating bond to the lead surface.

The key seems to be the time it takes for the substrate (lead) gets to cure temperature.

With well dried Hi-Tek I have been able to cure small batches of projectiles in around 3 minutes 20 seconds and less. These tests were without any temperature control and the temp far exceeded what is required to cure Hi-Tek. The coating still bonded to the lead and the only issue was the colour went a little darker.

I have not completed any high temp fast cure tests with coating that has only being drying for a short time.

Several tests have now been completed where a batch of projectiles have been coated when the ambient temperature has been low 10 to 12 degrees. Once coated the projectiles chilled by 4 or 5 degrees.

They were left to dry for about 90 minutes and then placed on the infrared oven conveyor without any pre-heating, projectile temp before entering the oven was around 10 degrees. They ran through the oven as per my normal temperature and time settings.

Projectiles past the smash and wipe tests.

2nd coat was applied and allowed only 20 minutes dying time with no force dry or pre-heating. 2nd bake smash and wipe tests passed.

Another test has been completed where drying time was about 60 minutes and the projectiles were left outside to dry in the late afternoon as the temperature was dropping fast in the shade. These were then baked as per normal settings and passed smash and wipe tests.

Next test to be completed will be with very limited dry time 10 - 15 minutes in cold conditions and then bake and see what happens.

I suspect that such a short dry time may be pushing the limits however, results in my opinion, will depend on relative humidity, dew point and temperature of the projectiles before they enter the oven.

Should short dry time, high humidity and high dew point cause bonding failure (failed smash test) the next step would be to reduce the oven stage one temperature and increase the baking time. In short, slow the time taken for the substrate (lead) to reach cure temp. This will allow more time for any moisture to evaporate before the coating starts to cure.

Currently I'm curing Hi-Tek at a rate less the 5 minutes 30 seconds. Even increasing the time by another minute will still outweigh longer pre-dry times and especially pre-heating the projectiles.

Don't forget, Hi-Tek is actually simple to use. It's people like Auglock, myself and many others that have conducted numerous tests and experiments to help us understand how to achieve the best results with conventional and infrared.

UV curing is another league. I have no experience with UV curing other than I understand it's a very quick cure process. Any oven or curing device would need to allow UV to penetrate the complete surface of the projectile and, that creates a whole new problem.

More details about my infrared will be available once a commercial design has been released.

[m37]

Jatz sent you a pm



Popper,

There is still much to do in the way of testing Hi-Tek with infrared curing.

I don't use nor recommend halogen infrared as it may be too intense on the surface and will possibly burn the coating before it heats the lead to cure temp. (halogen, good for pizza ovens or T-shirt dryers) and cause trapped moisture to turn into superheated steam and cause loss of coating bond to the lead surface.

The key seems to be the time it takes for the substrate (lead) gets to cure temperature.

With well dried Hi-Tek I have been able to cure small batches of projectiles in around 3 minutes 20 seconds and less. These tests were without any temperature control and the temp far exceeded what is required to cure Hi-Tek. The coating still bonded to the lead and the only issue was the colour went a little darker.

I have not completed any high temp fast cure tests with coating that has only being drying for a short time.

Several tests have now been completed where a batch of projectiles have been coated when the ambient temperature has been low 10 to 12 degrees. Once coated the projectiles chilled by 4 or 5 degrees.

They were left to dry for about 90 minutes and then placed on the infrared oven conveyor without any pre-heating, projectile temp before entering the oven was around 10 degrees. They ran through the oven as per my normal temperature and time settings.

Projectiles past the smash and wipe tests.

2nd coat was applied and allowed only 20 minutes dying time with no force dry or pre-heating. 2nd bake smash and wipe tests passed.

Another test has been completed where drying time was about 60 minutes and the projectiles were left outside to dry in the late afternoon as the temperature was dropping fast in the shade. These were then baked as per normal settings and passed smash and wipe tests.

Next test to be completed will be with very limited dry time 10 - 15 minutes in cold conditions and then bake and see what happens.

I suspect that such a short dry time may be pushing the limits however, results in my opinion, will depend on relative humidity, dew point and temperature of the projectiles before they enter the oven.

Should short dry time, high humidity and high dew point cause bonding failure (failed smash test) the next step would be to reduce the oven stage one temperature and increase the baking time. In short, slow the time taken for the substrate (lead) to reach cure temp. This will allow more time for any moisture to evaporate before the coating starts to cure.

Currently I'm curing Hi-Tek at a rate less the 5 minutes 30 seconds. Even increasing the time by another minute will still outweigh longer pre-dry times and especially pre-heating the projectiles.

Don't forget, Hi-Tek is actually simple to use. It's people like Auglock, myself and many others that have conducted numerous tests and experiments to help us understand how to achieve the best results with conventional and infrared.

UV curing is another league. I have no experience with UV curing other than I understand it's a very quick cure process. Any oven or curing device would need to allow UV to penetrate the complete surface of the projectile and, that creates a whole new problem.

More details about my infrared will be available once a commercial design has been released.

[Jatz357]

Jatz sent you a pm

M37, have now replied.

[Avenger442]

Finished final testing of the six year old powder, mentioned in post 14322 & 24, at the range yesterday. As suspected there were no issues. No leading in the three 9mm guns. Used minimum loads all the way to .1 gn short of max load. Actually since my scale measures within .1 gn some were probably max loads.

The only issue that I can see with keeping the powder for long periods of time is a change in color. What was a dark grey had a slight green ting to it. Which is OK with me since keeping lead out of the barrel is the main purpose for a lubricant. And Hi Tek has always passed that test with flying colors (pun intended).

I keep all of my coating mixed and unmixed in a wood crate sitting on the floor of my basement. Basement is humidity controlled, no sunlight with temps ranging from low 80s in summer to low 40s in winter.

[HI-TEK]

Finished final testing of the six year old powder, mentioned in post 14322 & 24, at the range yesterday. As suspected there were no issues. No leading in the three 9mm guns. Used minimum loads all the way to .1 gn short of max load. Actually since my scale measures within .1 gn some were probably max loads.

The only issue that I can see with keeping the powder for long periods of time is a change in color. What was a dark grey had a slight green ting to it. Which is OK with me since keeping lead out of the barrel is the main purpose for a lubricant. And Hi Tek has always passed that test with flying colors (pun intended).

I keep all of my coating mixed and unmixed in a wood crate sitting on the floor of my basement. Basement is humidity controlled, no sunlight with temps ranging from low 80s in summer to low 40s in winter.

Avenger
Thanks for your post. What was powders original colour that you used?
Most of the colored components are fairly stable. It is the resin that goes funny colors with time.
Afterwards, you get a combined mix of the components that will be different colour to the original.
Some seem to be OK longer and some changes faster.
In your case, 6 year old Powdered Hi-Tek has produced a pretty good outcome, despite colour change.
I don't believe that coatings were to be stored so long without using them.
Most users simply use their Hi-Tek fairly quickly, and order fresh ones regularly to maintain the cosmetic looking "appearance".

[popper]

So far what I can find, IR cooking best 4-5Um - MWIR @ 6-800 *F. from a ceramic source. Warm up time is slow. Absorption of plactics is varied - PVC=10%, Styrene =70%, Polyethylene= 10%. So keep the first coat THIN. H2O absorption is in near IR, ~ 40% but source temp must be much higher, >1k *F. Don't bother with far IR, lowest energy and CO2 absorption of air is a killer.

[Avenger442]

Joe
Original color was Gunmetal grey. Color after six years has a very dark green tint. Looks very much like Dark Green I used several years ago.

[HI-TEK]

Joe
Original color was Gunmetal grey. Color after six years has a very dark green tint. Looks very much like Dark Green I used several years ago.

Thanks Avenger
That coating is a very dark Blue/Green type so it is normal to see that colour even after years.
It may have gone more towards Green with the resin getting darker Yellow to tan colour with age.
There is another Dark Green and it is V-2, which is a very dark green, but nowhere as dark as Gunmetal.
Main thing is that it worked after years of storage.

[popper]

What temp is the source for you guys using IR cooking? Interested to see if IR LEDs would do the job.

[Jatz357]

What temp is the source for you guys using IR cooking? Interested to see if IR LEDs would do the job.

Just need to be able to get to cure temp of 195 degrees C and hold it for a few minutes.

I don't think IR LEDs would be able to get to such temperatures. In an oven environment the LEDs and enclosures would be damaged.

[Jatz357]

R & D of Hi-Tek Supercoat dark green and blue colours.

From left to right:
# First two projectiles are one coat dark green cured, baked using our infrared oven technology
# Next three are one coat of dark green, not baked ( uncured )
# Next three are one coat of blue, not baked ( uncured )
# Last two are one coat of blue cured

The flattened ones in the foreground are the results of the "smash test" The smash test is used to check coating adhesion, These projectiles pass.

https://eminenceprojectiles.com.au/images/external/colour_test_dark_green_and_blue_2021-04-02.jpg

[Ausglock]

I took some Tru Blu that was mixed back in Feb that has been stored in the fridge and coated with it tonight. Works perfectly. colour is the same as back in Feb.

Your DG looks closer to KG.
Your unbaked DG acually looks lighter than the unbaked DG I have here. it really looks like unbaked KG.
Your blue looks like my blue.

[Jatz357]

I took some Tru Blu that was mixed back in Feb that has been stored in the fridge and coated with it tonight. Works perfectly. colour is the same as back in Feb.

Your DG looks closer to KG.
Your unbaked DG acually looks lighter than the unbaked DG I have here. it really looks like unbaked KG.
Your blue looks like my blue.

I was saying dark green because that's what was on the label of the product Joe sent. I haven't had any experience with other greens, so I don't really know the difference.

[HI-TEK]

I was saying dark green because that's what was on the label of the product Joe sent. I haven't had any experience with other greens, so I don't really know the difference.

That sample of Dark Green you received was a test on new suppliers of various ingredients. The mixture of that Dark Green you tested was a basic test mix to see what happens with IR baking.
The final "Darkness" of the final colour was not important with that sample. At least we know, that the coating cured OK and produced a IR bake able and stable coating.
Just for curiosity, what was product exit temperature from the oven of the coated cast, as per your photo?

[Jatz357]

That sample of Dark Green you received was a test on new suppliers of various ingredients. The mixture of that Dark Green you tested was a basic test mix to see what happens with IR baking.
The final "Darkness" of the final colour was not important with that sample. At least we know, that the coating cured OK and produced a IR bake able and stable coating.
Just for curiosity, what was product exit temperature from the oven of the coated cast, as per your photo?

I'm pretty sure those ones were test baked at my normal oven settings and exit temp was 205 degrees C after 5:35 mins.

Below is the comparison image showing results for different temperatures and bake times.

https://eminenceprojectiles.com.au/images/external/hi-tek_colour_test_2021-04.jpg

[echo154]

Well I tried coating about 100 265 gun 44 rnfp. First coat was so light I could hardly tell if the coating was on them (gold). I put em in an old toaster oven stays at 385-395. They came out with a nice lite gold color but several didn't deem to take the coating, Rest passed the smash and whipe test. I pulled several that didn't cover well and recoated the rest for two more cycles.....they passed both tests but some are more gold than others. Not sure why or if it matters but would like thoughts on the few that didn't seem to take first coat. I simply cast them and dropped em on soft clean rags. The gas checks went on the three coaters quite well.

[AbitNutz]

I'm trying to make sure I'm reading this right. Are you saying that using a 1500w infrared oven for home use is worth trying or not to bother? If it speeds things up at all, and still produces good quality bullets, wouldn't it be worth giving it a go?

[Jatz357]

Well I tried coating about 100 265 gun 44 rnfp. First coat was so light I could hardly tell if the coating was on them (gold). I put em in an old toaster oven stays at 385-395. They came out with a nice lite gold color but several didn't deem to take the coating, Rest passed the smash and whipe test. I pulled several that didn't cover well and recoated the rest for two more cycles.....they passed both tests but some are more gold than others. Not sure why or if it matters but would like thoughts on the few that didn't seem to take first coat. I simply cast them and dropped em on soft clean rags. The gas checks went on the three coaters quite well.

Not sure why some would "take" the coating better than others.

Without seeing what they look like, my thoughts is small batches are more difficult to obtain an even coat, especially if agitating by hand rather than tumbling. The ones that have direct contact with the coating when the coating is poured into the bucket will have a heavier coat compared to the others that have coating transferred to them from shaking around. That's my experience anyway.

[HI-TEK]

echo154
I hate to say it, but I think you did not shake up diluted made up product when taking out quantity to coat your casts.
The ingredients settle quickly so you must mix, and immediately suck out with a Syringe the amount needed to coat. Squirt it onto your casts and shake coat quickly, (10-15 seconds).
Dump wet coated cast onto a wire mesh, not a cloth. and dry well. It is better to have some old newspapers under the mesh to catch any excess liquid.

[Ausglock]

I have never had excess coating make it through the mesh tray.
If you do, you are using far far too much.

[echo154]

I actually used 50ml acetone to 152 grns of coating in a clear squirt bottle(old ketchup) design. shook for 45 seconds in a 1/2 gallon paint bucket then put them on screen to dry overnight. Put it over concrete at 100 dg to finish drying(humidity 99%) then 385-405 for 8-9minutes..not good with electronics but will try to get pictures when my nephew visits. I'll look into a syringe. only doing small batches till I get it going good. I will say after dealing with some "top of the line companies" dealing with You and HI Tek have been the best.......almost makes me wish I was Austrailian ...of course I live in Illinois:dung_hits_fan:

[AbitNutz]

After trying to decipher the last few pages, I'm thinking about using a cheap 1750 watt infrared oven (pizza warmer). Do you all think holds any advantage over the conventional cheap convection oven (Hamilton Beach) I now use?

I've moved up to coating 12 gauge shotgun slugs if that makes a difference.

[Jatz357]

After trying to decipher the last few pages, I'm thinking about using a cheap 1750 watt infrared oven (pizza warmer). Do you all think holds any advantage over the conventional cheap convection oven (Hamilton Beach) I now use?

I've moved up to coating 12 gauge shotgun slugs if that makes a difference.

Can't give much advice re "pizza warmer" If it is a halogen infrared it may not be suitable although, I have not completed any testing with halogen infrared. My thought is it will be too intense and possibly heat the outer surface facing the infrared source too fast compared to the underside and give uneven cured and colour results.

Also I haven't tested anything as large as 12guage. Pretty sure infrared would work but would need to tweak temps and bake times.

You may have to do your own research and see what happens.

[Avenger442]

I actually used 50ml acetone to 152 grns of coating in a clear squirt bottle(old ketchup) design. shook for 45 seconds in a 1/2 gallon paint bucket then put them on screen to dry overnight. Put it over concrete at 100 dg to finish drying(humidity 99%) then 385-405 for 8-9minutes..not good with electronics but will try to get pictures when my nephew visits. I'll look into a syringe. only doing small batches till I get it going good. I will say after dealing with some "top of the line companies" dealing with You and HI Tek have been the best.......almost makes me wish I was Australian:cry: ...of course I live in Illinois:dung_hits_fan:

Even coming from Illinois you wouldn't like their gun laws. Why don't you move to Texas[smilie=s:.

[Tazza]

i tried something different with K15 today, i had an issue with my mower carb, so the usual suspect, rusty fuel bowl. I sand blasted it, then gave it three coats of K15, cooking for 5 minutes each, seemed to hold well, time will tell if it is solvent stable when being submerged in fuel for extended periods of time.

I do have pictures, but they are on my phone and not the lappy for easy sharing :(

[dikman]

:lol: It seems some of us are determined to try and find another use besides boolits for the coating.

[Tazza]

:lol: It seems some of us are determined to try and find another use besides boolits for the coating.

Gotta give Joe more markets to sell his goods to :)

[AbitNutz]

Can't give much advice re "pizza warmer" If it is a halogen infrared it may not be suitable although, I have not completed any testing with halogen infrared. My thought is it will be too intense and possibly heat the outer surface facing the infrared source too fast compared to the underside and give uneven cured and colour results.

Also I haven't tested anything as large as 12guage. Pretty sure infrared would work but would need to tweak temps and bake times.

You may have to do your own research and see what happens.

So if we're not wanting infrared that is generated by a halogen bulb, what is the preferred method to generate infrared radiation? I would have thought an infrared wave was an infrared wave no matter how it was made. Obviously, I'm wrong.

[Tazza]

So if we're not wanting infrared that is generated by a halogen bulb, what is the preferred method to generate infrared radiation? I would have thought an infrared wave was an infrared wave no matter how it was made. Obviously, I'm wrong.

The only real way to know for sure is to give it a try. Jatz has done extensive testing on his system so he knows that one works, and works very well. I'd suspect that Halogen IR bulbs would work too, but i wonder if the output is more concentrated in a circle vs spread out to cover a larger area to help prevent hot spots.

[RydForLyf]

Is the TruBlu from last year gone? The image on the HPBC website looks a lot different than the stuff I was messing with February of 2020.

[popper]

Halogen lights use the halogen to reform the tungsten filament and extend life. They are not an arc type light. They are more 'blue' for headlights as they run much hotter. Hotter temp, more 'blue' spectrum.
A rod type 'bulb' with a reflector would probably work, actual 'bulb' style would give hot spots.

[AbitNutz]

Halogen lights use the halogen to reform the tungsten filament and extend life. They are not an arc type light. They are more 'blue' for headlights as they run much hotter. Hotter temp, more 'blue' spectrum.
A rod type 'bulb' with a reflector would probably work, actual 'bulb' style would give hot spots.

Yeah, well if I knew how to apply what you said here to something I could buy it would be great. Or, better yet, if you gave me an example of something I was more familiar with. So what I'm saying here is...if I wanted to try infrared curing in my basement...how would I do it without a Fluxcapacitor?

[Tazza]

Yeah, well if I knew how to apply what you said here to something I could buy it would be great. Or, better yet, if you gave me an example of something I was more familiar with. So what I'm saying here is...if I wanted to try infrared curing in my basement...how would I do it without a Fluxcapacitor?

What are you hoping to get out of an IR curing oven that you can't on a plain 'ol house hold oven? I have coated and cooked about 800,000 projectiles with an oven that i got off the in-laws years ago. For me, it works very well, IR seems to be very effective for curing and keeping the colours right, and doing it quickly.

[AbitNutz]

What are you hoping to get out of an IR curing oven that you can't on a plain 'ol house hold oven? I have coated and cooked about 800,000 projectiles with an oven that i got off the in-laws years ago. For me, it works very well, IR seems to be very effective for curing and keeping the colours right, and doing it quickly.

Speeding things up. I'm trying it out on some higher speed rifle bullets and I'm doing more coats. I would appreciate anything that speeds up the process as I'm adding more processing.

[Tazza]

Fair enough, that makes sense. I do 3 coats on all my cast, i cook for 12 minutes at 200c with two trays, each tray is around 1,200 x 125 grain 9mm. You can lower the cooking time if you cook less per batch, as long as you reach curing temperature for long enough. allowing them to cool before you do the next coat while cooking more.

If i'm trying to be efficient, i coat and let everything dry. I then cook in batches, laying the hot cured projectiles on a bench to cool, i keep adding them to separate spots and eventually the first cooked batch is good for a second coat, i coat it and let it dry while cooking the first batch, eventually i have cooked all the first lot and the next batch has had time to dry and ready to bake. I keep going till everything is done, or i have had enough for the day.

It's a process that takes a little thought of how to lay them so you can get the cooler ones to coat and not pick up the hot ones that evaporate the acetone too fast.

As for the extra coats for rifle, have you done any experiments with it to show how well the extra coats do to prevent leading? and how many coats is enough? this would be a very interesting project. I may give it a go of putting a silly amount of coats on some cast to test, just cause why not? Yet they may need sizing after a few coats or it may be too tough to size at the end. Each coat added half a thou when i measured it.

[AbitNutz]

Fair enough, that makes sense. I do 3 coats on all my cast, i cook for 12 minutes at 200c with two trays, each tray is around 1,200 x 125 grain 9mm. You can lower the cooking time if you cook less per batch, as long as you reach curing temperature for long enough. allowing them to cool before you do the next coat while cooking more.

If i'm trying to be efficient, i coat and let everything dry. I then cook in batches, laying the hot cured projectiles on a bench to cool, i keep adding them to separate spots and eventually the first cooked batch is good for a second coat, i coat it and let it dry while cooking the first batch, eventually i have cooked all the first lot and the next batch has had time to dry and ready to bake. I keep going till everything is done, or i have had enough for the day.

It's a process that takes a little thought of how to lay them so you can get the cooler ones to coat and not pick up the hot ones that evaporate the acetone too fast.

As for the extra coats for rifle, have you done any experiments with it to show how well the extra coats do to prevent leading? and how many coats is enough? this would be a very interesting project. I may give it a go of putting a silly amount of coats on some cast to test, just cause why not? Yet they may need sizing after a few coats or it may be too tough to size at the end. Each coat added half a thou when i measured it.

I've fallen in love with this process. Almost all of my lubrisizers, four of them, sit unused in a box. The only one that lives on is a Star/Magma that I have powered with air and a heated base that's run through a PID, and I only use it for my BigLube black powder revolver bullets and some other oddballs. I also have a million dies for it, plus I'm too proud of the setup to kill it. All the RCBS/Lyman goop machines were just gathering dust and goop.

Every mold I buy I try to get sans lube groove. Ever since I discovered that these things feed through a bullet feeder just as well as a jacketed bullet I was pretty much done with lubing pistol bullets. Previously I only used cast bullets in pistols and bigbore, low-velocity rifles, read 45/70, 45/100, 450 Nitro Express.

However, I have an affection for a couple of surplus rifles, like my MK III Ross in 303 British, and my M39 Finnish Mosin in 7,62x54R Russian. I've started shooting cast bullets out of them using gas checks and coated with Hi-Tek. I've gotten up to around 1750 fps, according to my LabRadar. Previously, I couldn't even consider shooting cast bullets out of these rifles. The leading was so severe, at any velocity, it was almost like applying a lead paste to the bore. Accuracy isn't amazing but it's not horrible either and I'm getting better at tuning it in but most of all, it's not leaving half the bullet in the barrel.

One of the semi-major pains in my butt now is crimping on gas checks without using a lubrisizer. No one seems to have a tool that does that. NOE has a widget but it doesn't actually crimp it on. It just sorta squares it up. It seems everyone assumes you use a lubrisizer to put on a gas check. I can always tell by my group size when the damn gas check has come off! It's a long story on how I know but I found a way. It involves the LabRadar. I need a tool that allows me to crimp on a gas check squarely and quickly every time without having to hold my tongue just right.

So, to put an end to this ballistic rendition of War and Peace. I'd like to speed up the process in any way I can as it seems that what works best is thinner coats and more of them. So if I can put in an infrared raygun that speeds up the cycle without giving me skin cancer or costing a fortune...just point me at it.

[Avenger442]

Hey Nutz,

I've been coating rifle bullets with this stuff for about six years. It's a hobby for me so speed isn't necessarily a priority. I coat 308s for the most part in rifle. Running them at about 2600fps according to Lab Radar. Have pushed them over 2700 fps with no leading but they are not as accurate. I've pushed 223 and three coats over 3000fps with no leading. I have used Hi Tek on 223, 380, 45-70, 45 auto, 44 mag, 357 mag, 9mm and what ever else I cast. And by the way my sporterized .303 Enfield loves them. I don't shoot it much. Dad's old gun.

I started out putting three coats and still do on rifle bullets. My idea back when I started was to make a jacket out of it. But too thick is a mistake. It can cause flaking on smash test. Three thin coats are good and I have run one medium coat in the .308 with no leading. But recommendation is two to three. If your one of those guys that just has to have the color right it will take that many coats.

I use Lee sizing dies to put on my gas checks and have always been happy with them.

With all of the new casters coming after the recent ammo shortages I'll bet those lube sizers would bring a pretty penny on Ebay.

Good groups are not a problem with Hi Tek. Some use it in competition. The following are 308 five shot groups at 100 yards. My Marlin 45-70 will group 2-2 1/2" at 100 yards. 200 yard shots with 308 are in the 2-3" zone.

285997
285998
285999

[Tazza]

Hey Nutz,

I've been coating rifle bullets with this stuff for about six years. It's a hobby for me so speed isn't necessarily a priority. I coat 308s for the most part in rifle. Running them at about 2600fps according to Lab Radar. Have pushed them over 2700 fps with no leading but they are not as accurate. I've pushed 223 and three coats over 3000fps with no leading. I have used Hi Tek on 223, 380, 45-70, 45 auto, 44 mag, 357 mag, 9mm and what ever else I cast. And by the way my sporterized .303 Enfield loves them. I don't shoot it much. Dad's old gun.

I started out putting three coats and still do on rifle bullets. My idea back when I started was to make a jacket out of it. But too thick is a mistake. It can cause flaking on smash test. Three thin coats are good and I have run one medium coat in the .308 with no leading. But recommendation is two to three. If your one of those guys that just has to have the color right it will take that many coats.

I use Lee sizing dies to put on my gas checks and have always been happy with them.

With all of the new casters coming after the recent ammo shortages I'll bet those lube sizers would bring a pretty penny on Ebay.

Good groups are not a problem with Hi Tek. Some use it in competition. The following are 308 five shot groups at 100 yards. My Marlin 45-70 will group 2-2 1/2" at 100 yards. 200 yard shots with 308 are in the 2-3" zone.

285997
285998
285999

Have you seen what speed you can get from your .223 and .308 without gas checks? I'd like to try my hand at casting some of them , but would rather not need to gas check, but i think to get any real speed, i have no choice but to do so with a harder alloy.

[Avenger442]

Have you seen what speed you can get from your .223 and .308 without gas checks? I'd like to try my hand at casting some of them , but would rather not need to gas check, but i think to get any real speed, i have no choice but to do so with a harder alloy.

The only experience I have with no gas checks in the 308 is once I was asked a question much like yours by a guy thinking about using Hi Tek back a few years ago. I think his question was could he shoot full house loads with Hi Tek in his service rifle with no gas check. I loaded some up that didn't have gas checks but had the groove for one. Didn't have a way to measure speed back then but loads should have been around 2700 fps. They did leave a small amount of lead in the barrel. One of only two times I have had leading with Hi Tek. I answered his question. I'm not sure if the cause of the leading was gas cutting on the butt of the bullet. But thought that might have been the cause since those bullets were around 17BHN and that cut on the base for the gas check could have kept it from sealing. I was going to go back and visit this again with some 12-14BHN and slow them down to 2000 fps but just never got around to it. Don't have any experience with 223 but would think it would be a disaster to shoot 3000 fps with no gas check. Maybe 2000 fps? But you can do that with grease/wax lubes I'm told. Don't think anything over 14 BHN would work because of the gas cutting. But that is just an opinion. And those are like noses, everybody has one.

I understand the wish to not use gas checks. They are one more step that has to be done. You have to have at least one coat on the bullet before putting it through the sizing die. I have actually done so many on the 223 that my thumb was sore. Kind of like loading a bunch of loads by hand in handgun clips.

I don't use gas checks in the 45-70. Lead is usually about 12 BHN. But that is a totally different story than 308. I have a theory that smaller diameter bullets are harder to protect than larger ones. But that is like the theory of evolving from one species to another. It has never been proven and ain't science :bigsmyl2:.

[popper]

@Tazza - I tried HT on GC mould, hard alloy, didn't work well at all, ~1800 fps. I did get hard alloy to work PB @ 2100 fps and decent accuracy. This is out of BO carbine @ 100, pretty close to top end load ( made a mistake and loaded a couple hotter, bad result).
286014
As for IR cooking, my calrod oven emits IR when just glowing red but it heats the air faster than IR cooking. I can buy IR LEDs and focus them on the bullet for curing, not a lot of heat generated. Possible eye damage problem and maybe a project for later?

[Tazza]

The only experience I have with no gas checks in the 308 is once I was asked a question much like yours by a guy thinking about using Hi Tek back a few years ago. I think his question was could he shoot full house loads with Hi Tek in his service rifle with no gas check. I loaded some up that didn't have gas checks but had the groove for one. Didn't have a way to measure speed back then but loads should have been around 2700 fps. They did leave a small amount of lead in the barrel. One of only two times I have had leading with Hi Tek. I answered his question. I'm not sure if the cause of the leading was gas cutting on the butt of the bullet. But thought that might have been the cause since those bullets were around 17BHN and that cut on the base for the gas check could have kept it from sealing. I was going to go back and visit this again with some 12-14BHN and slow them down to 2000 fps but just never got around to it. Don't have any experience with 223 but would think it would be a disaster to shoot 3000 fps with no gas check. Maybe 2000 fps? But you can do that with grease/wax lubes I'm told. Don't think anything over 14 BHN would work because of the gas cutting. But that is just an opinion. And those are like noses, everybody has one.

I understand the wish to not use gas checks. They are one more step that has to be done. You have to have at least one coat on the bullet before putting it through the sizing die. I have actually done so many on the 223 that my thumb was sore. Kind of like loading a bunch of loads by hand in handgun clips.

I don't use gas checks in the 45-70. Lead is usually about 12 BHN. But that is a totally different story than 308. I have a theory that smaller diameter bullets are harder to protect than larger ones. But that is like the theory of evolving from one species to another. It has never been proven and ain't science :bigsmyl2:.

Great information Avenger, thank you. The only .30 mould i have is for gas checks, and getting gas checks over here at the moment is a non event, they are listed on shop sites, but no stocks. Good to know they can be driven quite hard with a gas check, the accuracy isn't the same as jacketed, but way cheaper. .223 projectiles are still fairly cheap to buy jacketed, it was just to give more options.

Popper: Thanks for your info too, i think i just need to sit down and tinker to see what will work well enough for me, i can't expect jacketed performance, but i'm happy if it would hit paper at 200m

As for IR leds, i'm wondering if they would have enough output to heat the lead, usually IR leds are used for night vision, not to heat? As far as i understand it, you need to heat the metal to 180c for it to cure the hi-tek, just illuminating is not enough. I wonder if you can alter where the aclrod oven has it's elements, if they are closer to the projectiles, it may help transfer the heat faster? Even more smaller elements that can glow above the cast? You will always have a heating effect on the air, this will also change the rate that the projectiles heat. Jatz has spent a lot of time with his setup, different days, even a little wind changes how it cures. You'll need a PID setup, potentially multiple zones to ensure you're not getting hot spots. It sure will be an interesting project.

[Avenger442]

You could order a gas check maker. I have one for the 30 and about to get one for the 223 and 357. They will let you not rely on suppliers for your gas checks.

I think we would need to follow Popper's advice and get a 30 mold without the gas check groove maybe smooth side and maybe some 12-14 BHN lead. Then we could see if we could do 2600 without the gas check. What do you think?

I have done a lot of work since the targets I posted. Consistency is better now. And if I do all of the other things right that you need to do to have match ammo, my hand loads with cast will come very close to and probably equal Federal Gold Metal Match ammo. My cast loads will shoot average 1" groups at 100 yards which is about what I got with the Federal. When I started I just wanted to shoot cast that equaled the Remington ammo that I used for hunting. That happened quicker than I thought it was going to. Then I asked "I wonder how accurate I can get them". I started doing things like uniforming primer pockets, de burring flash holes and segregating cases by weight. Three very thin coats on the bullets and segregating them by weight. Bought Hornady's bullet run out correction tool. Even tried some neck turning on the cases. And trying to be minutely consistent with powder measurement and loading. And there is always some other thing you can try. Will drive you crazy if you let it. But that's a lot of work for just loading a few to hunt with. I can just throw together some for hunting that will get in the kill zone at 200 yards say 4-5". 200 yards is about the max I'll get to shoot where I hunt.

I've got some 10 BHN 308s cast and coated to experiment with to see if they are feasible. And some heavy hollow point Blackout bullets loaded in .308 that are a project. But right now I'm working with 9mm and 45-70. Working up an accurate load with the 9mm and just playing with the 45-70. Most of you guys have been working with 9mm for years. I bought my first 9mm gun just before the COVID thing. And I didn't know how lucky I was when I stocked up on all that powder and primers when they were on sale a few years back. Kept the loading press from gathering dust.

[Tazza]

That's pretty good grouping from cast. The ones that have been tested so far give about twice the spread of jacketed of the same weight and powder charge, which really isn't bad at all. Case prep was not done to your extent, just wet tumbled and sized, no weight separation to keep things as good as possible was done and decent results were had.

These cast were all 3 coats of 122 red, then sized. The ones with gas checks were the same, 3 coats then sized while seating the GC. I didn't see the point of coating once, seating the GC then coating twice more.

A GC maker is an option. I personally don't have a .223 or .308, a mad mate does that lets me use it for our comps. It's on my list of things i need to get when money allows.

I actually do have a 180 grain .30 mould that has no lube or gas check groves. They have been tested up to 1,400FPS in a black out without leading, i'm unsure on alloy hardness though. I will need to make some harder alloy to test if hardness is a benefit or not. The alloy i used was my pistol alloy that sits at about 12, if i try 16 it may do even better.

I also have a 230 grain lyman mould on loan that is made for gas checks, i just need to work out an alloy that will handle being driven at speed.

99% of our shooting is just punching paper at our local range, at no more than 200m. Some is only at 50 which for a rifle, is a waste of "good" ammo so cast is ideal. No sense burning up expensive jacketed stuff when it's so close.

[popper]

smaller diameter bullets are harder to protect than larger ones Actually close to true. Larger base provides more FORCE for the same psi. Normally heavier bullet provides more inertia to start so 'bumping up' is easier.
IR LEDs are normally run for night vision but also run at low power to conserve battery life. They can be run with more light output. Your LED TV light is a non-white LED with phosphor over it to give white light, like a frosted bulb or fluorescent tube.

[Stephen Cohen]

As many on this page have found, Hi-Tek does allow high velocity in rifles that otherwise did not like cast. The first rifle I used Hi-Tek in was my 375 Whelen and it shot well at 1,800fps using a lee plain base bullet but accuracy went south after that, yet my 357 Maximum drives a 158gr Lee PB bullet at 2,300fps wit great accuracy, I have driven the Lee 125 RF bullet to 2,700fps with no leading but no accuracy as we. I loaded up some Lee 170gr for my 308 and found that the Omark 44 I was going test them in would not accept the 310 sized bullets due to the tight chamber on that rifle so will have to re visit that test again with 308 sized cast now that I found some 30 cal checks. I have over the last several years convinced many nay sayers to the benefits of Hi-Tek. I get several people coming and asking me to coat some of their wonder bullets for them, one being an old mate who shot a 3'' 100mtr group with coated 303/25 bullets using open sights. But I am preaching to the converted. Regards Stephen

[AbitNutz]

Wow! All I can say is Wow! I'm creeping up on higher velocities but nothing like you guys. I was dreaming of 2000 fps but that was just a dream. I've gotten good results on my M39 7.62x54R and my 303 Ross MK III but those are the only "higher" velocity rifles I've tried. I might up them a bit after seeing what you folks have accomplished but truthfully I'm thrilled to death to be where I'm at. I might get a custom mold made by NOE with a good crimp on gas check without a lube groove. I'll cast it in pure linotype and then put 4 or so coats of Hi-Tek on

I'd love to try pewter, just for the heck of it. I realize that casting in linotype or pewter kinda defeats the purpose of using Hi-Tek. That being you can use a softer lead and shoot at the same or higher velocity, but I like to use linotype (I have 700 lbs of it). I've never tried pewter though. Some people were talking about zinc but I'm staying away from that. Zinc has ruined more alloys for me than my mother-in-law has holidays.

Also, I really, really would like to try to speed things along with some sort of infrared setup. Anyone care to offer a suggestion on the hardware that would work?

[Tazza]

As many on this page have found, Hi-Tek does allow high velocity in rifles that otherwise did not like cast. The first rifle I used Hi-Tek in was my 375 Whelen and it shot well at 1,800fps using a lee plain base bullet but accuracy went south after that, yet my 357 Maximum drives a 158gr Lee PB bullet at 2,300fps wit great accuracy, I have driven the Lee 125 RF bullet to 2,700fps with no leading but no accuracy as we. I loaded up some Lee 170gr for my 308 and found that the Omark 44 I was going test them in would not accept the 310 sized bullets due to the tight chamber on that rifle so will have to re visit that test again with 308 sized cast now that I found some 30 cal checks. I have over the last several years convinced many nay sayers to the benefits of Hi-Tek. I get several people coming and asking me to coat some of their wonder bullets for them, one being an old mate who shot a 3'' 100mtr group with coated 303/25 bullets using open sights. But I am preaching to the converted. Regards Stephen

I'm working on one mate that i shoot with to give hi-tek a go, he recently bought powder coat but said when he ran out, he'd have a chat. I offered to give him a bag of say 100 grams to give it a test to see how easy it is.

Not a lot of them cast at my club, there would be less than a hand full that i know that do. I do push it all i can on book face, there are more and more people that are giving it a go.

[Tazza]

Wow! All I can say is Wow! I'm creeping up on higher velocities but nothing like you guys. I was dreaming of 2000 fps but that was just a dream. I've gotten good results on my M39 7.62x54R and my 303 Ross MK III but those are the only "higher" velocity rifles I've tried. I might up them a bit after seeing what you folks have accomplished but truthfully I'm thrilled to death to be where I'm at. I might get a custom mold made by NOE with a good crimp on gas check without a lube groove. I'll cast it in pure linotype and then put 4 or so coats of Hi-Tek on

I'd love to try pewter, just for the heck of it. I realize that casting in linotype or pewter kinda defeats the purpose of using Hi-Tek. That being you can use a softer lead and shoot at the same or higher velocity, but I like to use linotype (I have 700 lbs of it). I've never tried pewter though. Some people were talking about zinc but I'm staying away from that. Zinc has ruined more alloys for me than my mother-in-law has holidays.

Also, I really, really would like to try to speed things along with some sort of infrared setup. Anyone care to offer a suggestion on the hardware that would work?

Jatz is the one to advise on IR heating, he has made a conveyor oven that uses IR heating elements and has shown to be really good. Possibly a bit big of a setup for you, but you can hopefully use the same sort of elements to do it.

As for using lino, if you get your paws on pure lead, mix it 50/50 with the lino and you get "bullet" lead. I have been casting for quite a while using recovered range scrap with 20% lino added and it works well for me. Sadly, being range scrap, i can't tell exactly what the mix is every batch to know if i'm adding too much or not enough lino to the pot. This mix works well for me and the people that buy them off me.

[Stephen Cohen]

Tazza I don't know why the younger generation don't embrace casting as much as we old farts do. I find it therapeutic and all part of the shooting experience. Anyone can buy jacketed and get a good load right of the bat but to cast coat work out sizing and load data makes the sport what it is. We will still be shooting when jacketed bullets dry up. I find that Hi-Tek allows me to use much softer leads than the old grease lube did. There is no doubt that Hi-Tek takes more time than pan lubing or heaven forbit waiting decades for snail snot to dry. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Tazza I don't know why the younger generation don't embrace casting as much as we old farts do. I find it therapeutic and all part of the shooting experience. Anyone can buy jacketed and get a good load right of the bat but to cast coat work out sizing and load data makes the sport what it is. We will still be shooting when jacketed bullets dry up. I find that Hi-Tek allows me to use much softer leads than the old grease lube did. There is no doubt that Hi-Tek takes more time than pan lubing or heaven forbit waiting decades for snail snot to dry. Regards Stephen

Every time i think i'm not an old fart, i do the math and realize i'm already there, or getting close to it. I'm 43, i would have started casting when i was young, in my early twenties. Back then, my life wasn't complicated with a wife that actually wants to spend time with me for some odd reason, casting was fun after i found what to use for lube instead of liquid alox. After that, i'd cast 20 odd thousand to cover myself and a mate for the year of shooting. A few years later, i get hold of a used master caster and start selling some of my cast, then i found hi-tek that was a lot cheaper than my old product and far less messy to apply. Master caster was automated, then i could cast more and use more hi-tek.

I never got a chance to test how well hi-tek performed vs the coating i was using. Hi-tek doesn't leave anywhere near as much residue on my hands when sizing and loading, hi-tek doesn't seem to produce the same dust as the other stuff did after application and cooking.

[Stephen Cohen]

Your only a young Pup Tazza at 43 I will be 67 in a couple weeks and every joint tells me I am already there. I have to agree Joe did us proud with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Your only a young Pup Tazza at 43 I will be 67 in a couple weeks and every joint tells me I am already there. I have to agree Joe did us proud with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

Thankfully not everything hurts, but at times i do feel old. I did bootcamp last Saturday and then moves a truck load of horse poop, by the end of the day my knee was screaming at me, it's still angry, my wife likes to say i'm old, as she is younger than me.

[ryanmattes]

Thankfully not everything hurts, but at times i do feel old. I did bootcamp last Saturday and then moves a truck load of horse poop, by the end of the day my knee was screaming at me, it's still angry, my wife likes to say i'm old, as she is younger than me.Yeah, I get the knee thing too. I'll limp a bit for a week or so sometimes if I do too much. But the thing that really hammered home that I'm getting old is the readers. I've never needed glasses, and my vision is still great at any distance over about 8 inches from my face, but up close I just can't make my eyes focus anymore. Doesn't help that the kids all call them my "old man glasses." I get em back, though. "Walk the trash cans down the 100 yard, gravel driveway, I'm too old."

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[smlekid]

Hi I've been playing with some cast loads in 303 for my sporterized No1 Mk111 Lithgow. I have worked up a load getting me 2150fps with more than acceptable accuracy and no leading. The rifle has an Indian replacement barrel is fitted with a Vortex Viper 2-7x32 scope
https://i.imgur.com/nY9J1gT.jpg
The mould is an Accurate Mold 31-185J it is casting a .316" diameter boolit weighing 185gr dressed with a copper gas check https://i.imgur.com/CbFPVj9.jpg?2
This is around the group size I can get some a little better but I'm happy with them for a light barreled SMLE https://i.imgur.com/c4RKemY.jpg?2

[Tazza]

Yeah, I get the knee thing too. I'll limp a bit for a week or so sometimes if I do too much. But the thing that really hammered home that I'm getting old is the readers. I've never needed glasses, and my vision is still great at any distance over about 8 inches from my face, but up close I just can't make my eyes focus anymore. Doesn't help that the kids all call them my "old man glasses." I get em back, though. "Walk the trash cans down the 100 yard, gravel driveway, I'm too old."

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

My eye sight past my arms is fine, up close, they just refuse to focus, i use my phone to zoom in and my wife whinges at me to go get glasses, she has had glasses since she was 13, without them she is blind as a bat at anything past her nose. She can read fine, but everything else is a blur.

Smlekid - nice job on working up a load and cast that works so well, really nice setup there. What are you sizing at? i thought .303 likes .311?

[smlekid]

My eye sight past my arms is fine, up close, they just refuse to focus, i use my phone to zoom in and my wife whinges at me to go get glasses, she has had glasses since she was 13, without them she is blind as a bat at anything past her nose. She can read fine, but everything else is a blur.

Smlekid - nice job on working up a load and cast that works so well, really nice setup there. What are you sizing at? i thought .303 likes .311?

this particular barrel slugged at .315" so I size to .316". I have several 303's that range from .312" (a No5) to .315" (this No1) they average around .314" so I generally size to .316"
I think that flat nose Bollits should cause a bit of blunt force trauma on any thing it hits
By the way have you ever tried Pain away for your knee I love the stuff

[Tazza]

this particular barrel slugged at .315" so I size to .316". I have several 303's that range from .312" (a No5) to .315" (this No1) they average around .314" so I genarally size to .316"
I think that flat nose Bollits should cause a bit of blunt force trauma on any thing it hits
By the way have you ever tried Pain away for your knee I love the stuff

Wow, that's a fair bit over what i expected, but i know each barrel is different, but that is quite a bit bigger.

Oh yeah, whatever you tag with that flat nose is going to have a real bad day, especially at that speed, it won't get up in a hurry.

I haven't tried it, i may need to give it a go. It's not usually bad, only when i'm kneeling for long periods of time it can hurt for a few days, not usually this long. I laid about 1,300 bricks 2 weeks ago, after the first course of 250, i needed a break, my knees were so very cranky, but the day after was ok, not great but i could walk.

[Stephen Cohen]

smlekid, I remember as a kid that just about every home had one of those leaning behind the door or hanging on the wall. My child hood memories are of my Grandad's and thinking how we would go hunt Tigers in Afica with it when I grew up. ( yes I know Tigers are not from Africa but I was only 5 or 6 ) By the way that is a nice example you have. regards Stephen.

[Avenger442]

286382

A lot of us here in America also love that British gun that has been around for a long time. This is my Dad's .303. His deer hunting rifle. I can't even look at it without remembering deer hunting trips with him and the first time he let me use it. Lot of nostalgia in that gun.

[ioon44]

I killed my first deer at age 15 with my Dad's .303 and I still have the .303, Yes, lots of memories.

[smlekid]

286382

A lot of us here in America also love that British gun that has been around for a long time. This is my Dad's .303. His deer hunting rifle. I can't even look at it without remembering deer hunting trips with him and the first time he let me use it. Lot of nostalgia in that gun.

That is a nicely done sporter

[Avenger442]

Smlekid,

Need to mount a scope on it like yours. These old eyes can't do much at 100 yards with irons. Also like that wood cheek riser. I've never seen one on a .303 sporter.

What is the round piece of brass near the butt?

[Stephen Cohen]

Smlekid,

Need to mount a scope on it like yours. These old eyes can't do much at 100 yards with irons. Also like that wood cheek riser. I've never seen one on a .303 sporter.

What is the round piece of brass near the butt?

That disc is used by armorer to record such things as barrel condition and when given re fit. Most Military Rifles have one. Regards Stephen

[smlekid]

Smlekid,

Need to mount a scope on it like yours. These old eyes can't do much at 100 yards with irons. Also like that wood cheek riser. I've never seen one on a .303 sporter.

What is the round piece of brass near the butt?

The cheek riser is a reproduction sniper cheekrest for a No1 Mk111 HT. On this rifle it sits perfectly throw the rifle to your shoulder and your looking right through the scope. Thr brass disc is a unit marking disc this one was blank so I had my initials engraved on to it

[Avenger442]

That disc is used by armorer to record such things as barrel condition and when given re fit. Most Military Rifles have one. Regards Stephen

I have noticed them on other rifles for sale. I have a few military rifles but none of them have the brass tag and was wondering what it was. Thanks for the info.

[Avenger442]

Who on this thread has experience with moderate to high velocity loads in rifle with HI Tek and bullets with no check on the butt? Let me know what you found?

[popper]

I did 145gr PB in BO carbine, Used copper'd alloy @ ~2k fps. Gold powder stuff. Accuracy was decent, no leading. Pretty much use S&B PC now as it is easier and same results. I did try the old liquid green on 30/30, Didn't work well.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have used lee 158gr r/f no gas check in 357 maximum rifle at 2400fps with no leading and accuracy equal to Jacketed in same rifle, never bigger group than 1 1/4'' at 100mtrs. I get similar groups with my 458 at around the 1,800fps but much better groups with Gas checks. My brother drives the 320gr P/B .452 cast in his 460SW revolver with 8'' barrel at 1,990 fps with outstanding accuracy. I cast for several friends with 45/70 rifles and all say my cast are the most accurate they have used. I generally use well sorted Clip on wheel weights with just a little tin added to help fill out. I also drove a Lee 125gr r/f un checked at 2,700fps no leading but also no accuracy. I am convinced that the Hi-Tek coating is the only way to go but correct fit is a must, all my cast are at least 2 thou over bore size eg .357 I size to .360. I only use jacketed when the velocity gets up towards 3,000fps. I hope this helps. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

I have used lee 158gr r/f no gas check in 357 maximum rifle at 2400fps with no leading and accuracy equal to Jacketed in same rifle, never bigger group than 1 1/4'' at 100mtrs. I get similar groups with my 458 at around the 1,800fps but much better groups with Gas checks. My brother drives the 320gr P/B .452 cast in his 460SW revolver with 8'' barrel at 1,990 fps with outstanding accuracy. I cast for several friends with 45/70 rifles and all say my cast are the most accurate they have used. I generally use well sorted Clip on wheel weights with just a little tin added to help fill out. I also drove a Lee 125gr r/f un checked at 2,700fps no leading but also no accuracy. I am convinced that the Hi-Tek coating is the only way to go but correct fit is a must, all my cast are at least 2 thou over bore size eg .357 I size to .360. I only use jacketed when the velocity gets up towards 3,000fps. I hope this helps. Regards Stephen

Sadly i haven't really tested mine at silly speeds, but i run my range lead plus some line for tin and antimony for fill out in my .38 super open gun at 1,400 off PFS no leading in the barrel, but over a few thousand rounds, i do get build up of lead and carbon in the comp.

Straight range lead in 300BO no gas checks, no lube groves and 3 coats of 122 red at 1,400 FPS no leading. I'd like to test it with a harder alloy and see if i can get no leading at 2,000 FPS or more.

I don't know what the main cause of leading is. There are a few things i can think of, but can't confirm any. Leading due to gas cutting past the soft lead and barrel, then you have the lead not holding on to the rifling enough to make it spin causing the outside of the lead to essentially be torn off, causing the torn part to lead the rifling. If you have a longer bearing surface due to no lube groves, you have a better chance of the rifling engaging and holding on to the rest of the lead as it spins.

There is the idea that the powder behind the projectile melts the base, but i find that very hard to believe. The projectile has a flame behind it for miliseconds then it's on its nerry way to a target. I feel this amount of time isn't enough to melt through the hi-tek then start melting the lead behind it.

Without high speed cameras to see what the cast looks like as it exits the barrel, i can only guess.

[Stephen Cohen]

Tazza, there are no doubt many reasons for leading and I believe I know a few of them, no 1 is bullet fit, no two is barrel twist as you will find it easier to keep leading at bay with a slower twist, No 3 You are correct in saying that the hardness of the alloy will to a good degree dictate the speed you can expect before leading becomes a problem, No 4 in my view is bore size as I find it much easier to get good velocity and clean bores with larger calibers and will be testing this shortly using cast in 22 Hornet and 223. No 5 a good lube or in our case well applied abd backed Hi-Tek. I also agree that powder gas and heat do not melt base of cast bullets and know this to be a fairy tale, anyone who has used cardboard gas checks will no doubt have found them on bases of recovered bullets and they show no sign of being burned. The bullet is only in contact with the hot gasses and flame for such a short time that it does not have time to melt bullet base, a bit like quickly waving a blow torch flame across your hand you feel the warmth but that is all. I have found some range lead to be good for faster loads but that was in the days when most cast with Linotype and we see very little of that these days. I have high hopes of getting good 30 cal results from my Omark mod 44 when I get around to it as it has a 1/14'' twist barrel, I also have a couple other barrels for it in other twists. Regards Stephen

[Avenger442]

OK
Thanks for the replys to my question on plain base rifle bullets.
And since we are on leading now. When you have had leading is it mostly on the lands or in the groves? I do have a reason for these questions that I will reveal later.

[Tazza]

OK
Thanks for the replys to my question on plain base rifle bullets.
And since we are on leading now. When you have had leading is it mostly on the lands or in the groves? I do have a reason for these questions that I will reveal later.

My leading has always been the the grooves, never on the lands. Now i'm interested in where this is going, waiting to hear what you have in store for us.

[Tazza]

Tazza, there are no doubt many reasons for leading and I believe I know a few of them, no 1 is bullet fit, no two is barrel twist as you will find it easier to keep leading at bay with a slower twist, No 3 You are correct in saying that the hardness of the alloy will to a good degree dictate the speed you can expect before leading becomes a problem, No 4 in my view is bore size as I find it much easier to get good velocity and clean bores with larger calibers and will be testing this shortly using cast in 22 Hornet and 223. No 5 a good lube or in our case well applied abd backed Hi-Tek. I also agree that powder gas and heat do not melt base of cast bullets and know this to be a fairy tale, anyone who has used cardboard gas checks will no doubt have found them on bases of recovered bullets and they show no sign of being burned. The bullet is only in contact with the hot gasses and flame for such a short time that it does not have time to melt bullet base, a bit like quickly waving a blow torch flame across your hand you feel the warmth but that is all. I have found some range lead to be good for faster loads but that was in the days when most cast with Linotype and we see very little of that these days. I have high hopes of getting good 30 cal results from my Omark mod 44 when I get around to it as it has a 1/14'' twist barrel, I also have a couple other barrels for it in other twists. Regards Stephen

I never knew there was such a thing as a cardboard gas check, good to know. I'll have to push my 30 cals harder to see just what i can get from them. 1400fps no issues with 3 coats of hi-tek. Bevel base, no lube groove 180 grains. Sized to .308 shot out of a 300 BO 7615 and out a WFA1.

I totally agree it's all about bullet fit, if it's a good fit, you get the best accuracy and less or no leading due to the fact it's almost a perfect seal.

[Avenger442]

Tazza
I'm really not trying to be mysterious or anything. I mentioned in a previous post that I was going to experiment with a new bullet in my .308. It is heavy about 230 grain and a plain base bullet no gas check. I believe it was designed for 300 blackout. Well I took it to the range for first test. Wasn't very successful. The reason I didn't want to get too deep into it yet is that I haven't taken the time to sit down pull everything together and think about what happened.

As to what happened, there were no groups. Terrible accuracy. It is not the first time I have had this happen first time out. I'll get into it more later. Hope to have time to look at it tomorrow.

The reason I asked about others shooting plain base and where leading when there was any I thought I might get some clues to help me. So I appreciate all the replys.

[Tazza]

Tazza
I'm really not trying to be mysterious or anything. I mentioned in a previous post that I was going to experiment with a new bullet in my .308. It is heavy about 230 grain and a plain base bullet no gas check. I believe it was designed for 300 blackout. Well I took it to the range for first test. Wasn't very successful. The reason I didn't want to get too deep into it yet is that I haven't taken the time to sit down pull everything together and think about what happened.

As to what happened, there were no groups. Terrible accuracy. It is not the first time I have had this happen first time out. I'll get into it more later. Hope to have time to look at it tomorrow.

The reason I asked about others shooting plain base and where leading when there was any I thought I might get some clues to help me. So I appreciate all the replys.

Sorry, i didn't mean to imply you were being mysterious, you have been one of the best contributor for advise, any good or bad points you have experienced, you have always told us to not make the same mistakes.

I know there is some science with weight vs twist rates that i don't understand, one twist will work great with light ones, but heavy ones will look like a shotgun was used on the target.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have never had leading with Hi-Tek as yet. I have had leading with the old grease lube and mostly on the lands and I put that down to undersize bullets, but I did see a 357 revolver that was so badly leaded a cleaning rod could not go down the barrel as the clown shooting it never lubed bullets. I used mercury to remove the leading for him. Regards Stephen

[Avenger442]

No worry Tazza. And I appreciate the kind words. Not sure how deserving I am of you compliment.

I had not seen mercury as a way to remove lead. Will add that to the interesting have to try list. Mercury is pretty expensive. But if it works it works.

[Tazza]

The talk of mercury is interesting, i had a very old melting pot with a stuffed temperature gauge on that i decided needed dumping, i was thinking it may have had mercury in it due to it's age, as the sensing tube was almost rusted through, i helped it along and yes, it did contain mercury, now i have a very small amount if it, not enough to clean a barrel though, not sure if we can legally buy it over here too.

How much work is it to refine it back to pure? i watched a video that you essentially use a still to boil it and it condenses back into metallic mercury, no idea how much lead it needs to contain before that's needed though.

[HI-TEK]

The talk of mercury is interesting, i had a very old melting pot with a stuffed temperature gauge on that i decided needed dumping, i was thinking it may have had mercury in it due to it's age, as the sensing tube was almost rusted through, i helped it along and yes, it did contain mercury, now i have a very small amount if it, not enough to clean a barrel though, not sure if we can legally buy it over here too.

How much work is it to refine it back to pure? i watched a video that you essentially use a still to boil it and it condenses back into metallic mercury, no idea how much lead it needs to contain before that's needed though.

Tazza
My suggestion is do not try to use and distill Mercury. It might work, but is dangerous due to inhalation of vapors and my skin contact. The Metal is a poison.
Having said that, dental fillings contain Mercury to allow metal mixtures to be used to fill cavities, The Mercury slowly evaporates and is absorbed into your body, and leaves the residual alloy mix to harden. Something like cement setting.

[Tazza]

Tazza
My suggestion is do not try to use and distill Mercury. It might work, but is dangerous due to inhalation of vapors and my skin contact. The Metal is a poison.
Having said that, dental fillings contain Mercury to allow metal mixtures to be used to fill cavities, The Mercury slowly evaporates and is absorbed into your body, and leaves the residual alloy mix to harden. Something like cement setting.

I have no intention of using it to dissolve lead, it was an interesting way of cleaning a barrel though. The good thing is, hi-tek doesn't leave lead, so i don't need to resort to doing that :)

I have heard people using hydrogen peroxide and something else to clean lead from stainless steel barrels.

Good to see you lurking Joe, i sent you a text yesterday to check that COVID didn't get you as i hadn't seen you on the forum for a while and i know NSW has been hit hard over the last month. I got a chance to use your bonded release agent about 3 weeks ago, it worked well and the indent that i was getting from when the lead shrinks disappeared, so you get two thumbs up from me on the new bonded release.

[Stephen Cohen]

I also would not suggest playing with mercury as it can be very nasty stuff. I wore Rubber gloves when handling it and just plugged end of barrel and filled it with mercury and left over night, I would then empty barrel of mercury which has absorbed all the lead into a glass bottle and clean barrel with brush while wearing mask. Not something one should really do though. It is all in the past now we have Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

[Avenger442]

OK I finally had time to go back and look at what went wrong with my latest range test for a new plain base bullet.

Here are some of the specifics:
Mold is an NOE HTC 310-247 FN. Bullet has no place for a gas check and no lube grooves. It can be cast as flat or hollow point. I cast it as hollow point to try and keep weight down. Weight was average 229gn. Which is real heavy for this 1 in 10 twist .308 gun. BHN is 14. Three coats of Hi Tek. One coat then size .309 then two coats. Actual measured size was .3095. Bullet past smash and wipe test. Case is an RP with no prep and Federal Match primer. I had to look through several load manuals to arrive at a load. They are not easy to find with this heavy a .308 bullet. Finally settled on 36 grains of CFE 223. Over all length was just off the lands. Cases and bullets were sorted by weight.

When shot there were basically no groups. Smallest was 8" at 50 yards. If it goes over 6" at 100 yards it is basically no group as far as I am concerned. Bullet holes all over a 2'X4' cardboard that I attached the targets to. Several days after the range trip I cleaned it and three other guns. I had trouble getting the barrel clean. Patches kept coming out dirty using same methods that usually left it with a shiny barrel. Got out the bore light and look down the barrel and discovered some lead on one land from about 2" into the barrel to almost the crown. Also the whole barrel was not it's shiny self. This was probably the reason for the spread out groups. Got out the brass wool and scrubbed the barrel clean.

When I look at this I see a couple of things. Sizing was a good fit for the barrel. So most likely not gas cutting as the reason for leading. CFE 223 powder has an agent that is supposed to remove copper fouling from the barrel. That might be a cause for the leading?? So going to switch to a different powder and a CCI primer. Note at this point I have trouble every time I put a Federal Match primer in an RP case. Probably will use my favorite H4895 or maybe something really slow burning like H1000. I may have loaded this load a little too hot for the bullet. I didn't measure the speed. I wish I had brought that equipment now. Bearing surface on this bullet measures 0.595. That is about 0.252 more bearing than anything else that I have shot in this rifle. I think that I just drove the plain base bullet to fast. If I had to guess it was probably between 2100 and 2200 fps. Going to shoot for 2000fps with next loads. This bullet is about 70 gn over anything I have shot in this gun.

Let me know what you think.

[Tazza]

It could be a bit fast for a 1:10 barrel with those sort of predicted speeds. For lead getting on the lands, something has to be wrong for it to stick there, possibly too fast of a twist?

Being no lube groove, you have lots of bearing surface for the rifling to grab hold of, i'd like to think the cleaning properties of the powder wouldn't take effect really fast. You'd surely see grouping at first then it would open up if it was the cause?

I always assumed that leading "generally" happens closer to the muzzle, as that's where it has the most speed and potential friction to have the lead rub off on the barrel. At the throat, could that be due to it trying to start spinning?

[popper]

Harden your alloy. I've used cfe blk & pistol, no excessive bad crud left in barrel but it does burn dirty. I use 310 in my 308W AR10. Lead streaks are from something getting wiped down the barrel, happens to my plinking stuff in 40sw. Maybe the back end finger of the PB broke off? Slick sided pushes lots of alloy to the tail, that is why I put a groove in my slick sided moulds. HiTek is kinda hard to heat treat. I figure my alloy is 20ish BHN. The ones I did in BO were 30 something, copper added.

[Stephen Cohen]

Popper made a good point as I have never considered slick sided bullets would move lead to tail of bullet, I think that has merit. I have not done much with 308 cast as yet but those I know who have say it is not easy to get high velocity with 1:10 twist barrels, this is why I intend to use a 1:14 twist when I put my 308 together. I would do as you say and drop the velocity and work up from what you consider acceptable accuracy. Regard Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Hi all,
I am lost to understand why there seems a need, to drive cast boolits faster and faster in various calibers.
What is the benefit with driving them faster and faster?
Is this just an experiment, or is there a benefit?
All in the know, please advise..... thanks in advance

[Lloyd Smale]

in handguns not much. Ive killed bison with cast bullets at a 1000fps and see little advantage in killing power with anything over 1200. With rifles (im talking semi autos) it is something we do to get enough pressure to run the action. A 2200 fps load in a 556 isnt running the action. You need more pressure with light bullets or a heavier bullet. I also see some advantage in killing power in calibers 35 and smaller because they have smaller meplats and the velocity increase causes those small bullets to do more damage. With something 41 or bigger you have a big enough metplat to do damage and if anything trying to push them to fast decreases penetration. A big cast bullet with a decent metplat does its damage by penetrating deep and straight and giving a longer wound channel vs something like a jacketed hp that has a much shorter wider wound channel.

[Tazza]

Hi all,
I am lost to understand why there seems a need, to drive cast boolits faster and faster in various calibers.
What is the benefit with driving them faster and faster?
Is this just an experiment, or is there a benefit?
All in the know, please advise..... thanks in advance

The way i see the demand for more speed is for rifle, you want the speed so it shoots flatter, as it slows down, the trajectory looks like a rainbow. All bullets will drop as they go towards the target, but the flatter you get them, the more accuracy you get at distance.

You then have for hunting, the more energy you can hit an animal with, the more damage you can do if the projectile is right, and doesn't simply punch through. You have a 180 grain projectile moving at 1,000 FPS vs one that is 2,000 FPS obviously, the faster one has more energy to strike a target.

Factory loads for .223 and .308 push jacketed projectiles at 2,500-3,000 FPS. People like getting jacketed performance from coated lead, but i don't think you can ever get it, but the goal is to get as close to it as you can.

For pistol shooting, some competitions have a power factor to meet, but pretty much and coated lead can achieve this figure.

I'm sure there are points i missed and parts that can be corrected by others, but this is my understanding of it all.

[HI-TEK]

in handguns not much. Ive killed bison with cast bullets at a 1000fps and see little advantage in killing power with anything over 1200. With rifles (im talking semi autos) it is something we do to get enough pressure to run the action. A 2200 fps load in a 556 isnt running the action. You need more pressure with light bullets or a heavier bullet. I also see some advantage in killing power in calibers 35 and smaller because they have smaller meplats and the velocity increase causes those small bullets to do more damage. With something 41 or bigger you have a big enough metplat to do damage and if anything trying to push them to fast decreases penetration. A big cast bullet with a decent metplat does its damage by penetrating deep and straight and giving a longer wound channel vs something like a jacketed hp that has a much shorter wider wound channel.

Thank you Lloyd, your input is much appreciated.
It just seemed to me that people were trying to push things, may be too far, and this may cause other problems. Previously, I had not realized the reasons why this was being done.

[HI-TEK]

The way i see the demand for more speed is for rifle, you want the speed so it shoots flatter, as it slows down, the trajectory looks like a rainbow. All bullets will drop as they go towards the target, but the flatter you get them, the more accuracy you get at distance.

You then have for hunting, the more energy you can hit an animal with, the more damage you can do if the projectile is right, and doesn't simply punch through. You have a 180 grain projectile moving at 1,000 FPS vs one that is 2,000 FPS obviously, the faster one has more energy to strike a target.

Factory loads for .223 and .308 push jacketed projectiles at 2,500-3,000 FPS. People like getting jacketed performance from coated lead, but i don't think you can ever get it, but the goal is to get as close to it as you can.

For pistol shooting, some competitions have a power factor to meet, but pretty much and coated lead can achieve this figure.

I'm sure there are points I missed and parts that can be corrected by others, but this is my understanding of it all.



Tazza
Thanks for your input.
It seems, that there may be a lot of work possible or required, to make various alloys, with various hardness's, and test them at various speeds, to try to get speeds that they will tolerate, and required from a specific cast, with intent to get towards resembling Jacketed ammo performance.
I think this is a huge task, as so many variations are possible with alloy combinations, powder type and guns used.
There seems quite a few on this site that are experimenting for their own end uses.

[Tazza]

Tazza
Thanks for your input.
It seems, that there may be a lot of work possible or required, to make various alloys, with various hardness's, and test them at various speeds, to try to get speeds that they will tolerate, and required from a specific cast, with intent to get towards resembling Jacketed ammo performance.
I think this is a huge task, as so many variations are possible with alloy combinations, powder type and guns used.
There seems quite a few on this site that are experimenting for their own end uses.

There really is a lot of work to do that, what works for one gun, may not work for another. Avenger has posted quite a bit of great information from his research and testing.

The only long guns i have are .22 and an air rifle, i have not yet bought anything bigger to cast and tune to work well with cast, trying different hardness to get the desired speed. The ones i have cast for friends have been good to 1,400 FPS. The grouping isn't that of jacketed, but it's still good enough for the distances we plan on using them for in our competitions.

I don't go hunting, so the cast i have been making for friends is being used for competitions, punching paper and steel targets so we don't need silly speeds from them at the distances we shoot at.

[dverna]

Hi all,
I am lost to understand why there seems a need, to drive cast boolits faster and faster in various calibers.
What is the benefit with driving them faster and faster?
Is this just an experiment, or is there a benefit?
All in the know, please advise..... thanks in advance

Kinetic Energy...
Calculated as 1/2 * Mass * Velocity Squared

Increasing the velocity of a bullet by 41.4% doubles its energy.

And as others have stated...trajectory.

If we had to keep .308 cast bullets at under 2000 fps we could do that in calibers like the .30/30, .300BO, 7.62x39 etc. Not much sense in using .308's, .30/06's etc.

Many hunters using cast bullets go with larger calibers at slower velocities that are conducive to shooting cast bullets. They accept the limitation in range as part of the trade-off. With the shorter range, accuracy is less important...and typically, cast bullets will not be as accurate as jacketed.

I hunt with jacketed bullets to get the most energy, best accuracy and greatest range out of my weapons. For me, cast bullets are for pistol shooting and plinking. I am "stuck" with .223, .308 Win. and .300 Win Mag., so cast bullets are inferior in my situation. If I hunted with a .38/55 for example, cast would be fine.

[HI-TEK]

Kinetic Energy...
Calculated as 1/2 * Mass * Velocity Squared

Increasing the velocity of a bullet by 41.4% doubles its energy.

And as others have stated...trajectory.

If we had to keep .308 cast bullets at under 2000 fps we could do that in calibers like the .30/30, .300BO, 7.62x39 etc. Not much sense in using .308's, .30/06's etc.

Many hunters using cast bullets go with larger calibers at slower velocities that are conducive to shooting cast bullets. They accept the limitation in range as part of the trade-off. With the shorter range, accuracy is less important...and typically, cast bullets will not be as accurate as jacketed.

I hunt with jacketed bullets to get the most energy, best accuracy and greatest range out of my weapons. For me, cast bullets are for pistol shooting and plinking. I am "stuck" with .223, .308 Win. and .300 Win Mag., so cast bullets are inferior in my situation. If I hunted with a .38/55 for example, cast would be fine.


Don
Thanks for the detailed explanation. It makes sense.
If I recall correctly, posts were made here with hard casts where it was shot with reasonable accuracy at about 3000ft/sec. I cant recall actual details but report was at 100 yards and 200 yards quoting the accuracy at each distance.
At 200yards, accuracy was less but appeared to be acceptable.
It would be great if we can get this report posted again.

This is one report I kept, but dont know alloy details....
165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 1650-1750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of Hi-Tek coating.
One coating also gave same results . No gas checks were used.

[Avenger442]

Joe

Thanks for asking. In my case I was trying a plain base bullet where normally I shoot bullets with gas checks on the butt. I don't expect my leading problem is in any way due to Hi Tek. I suspect that I pushed that weight of bullet too fast and or the greater bearing surface or twist came into play. Every bullet has a point at which the material surrounding the lead will fail. Even jacketed lead bullets can fail. That speed with copper jackets is greater before they fail than Hi Tek, PC or wax and grease lubes of course. In reality a copper jacket in part is nothing more than something put there to protect the lead just like the others. Now I don't have the means to produce lead in a copper jacket. But I do have the means to cast and coat. I have found Hi Tek superior for my use. And you should not take my write up as criticizing your product. I love this stuff.

I need a point to adjust from to get my desired outcome. The write up that I did earlier was an experiment with an untried bullet, with an untried load. An educated guess on my part. One that didn't work out like I hoped. I know you have had those.:-) So now I have to go back and adjust until I get that beautiful orange and blue. War eagle! Sorry. School colors you know. But I will probably change powders, maybe alloy and this pushing lead to the tail and breaking off on plain base rifle bullets is a new one to consider.

Now I agree with much of what has been said about why/how.... we do it. How bigger lead bullets are easier to keep from leading, less or more twist is better with some bullets and how a flatter trajectory is easier to make long distance shots accurate. Those guys shooting out past 600 yards have a rainbow of a shot no matter what bullet they use. And at a mile, well. But there are some things that have been said here that I do not accept because my "experiments" have shown it isn't true. You can have jacketed accuracy in rifle as well as handgun with cast lead bullets and coating. Or said another way, all the accuracy you want. With rifle out to 200 yards, my greatest experimental distance so far was equal to jacketed. And I want to get accuracy out to 600 yards with cast. The speed of those .308 bullets was around 2600 fps (most accurate). Accuracy was equal out of my gun to Federal Gold Metal Match rounds. And pushed those .308 bullets up to 2700 fps with Hi Tek with no leading. Those bullets are around 14BHN. Have used some 12 BHN to 17BHN at similar speeds. All with a gas check and no leading. Going to try some 10 BHN with gas check in "an experiment". I have shot my .223 to 3000fps with a 21 BHN bullet Hi Tek cast,coated and gas check on the butt. But have not worked on accuracy with it much. But the fastest speed does not always equal the most accuracy in lead or jacketed. On the other hand we want the fastest bullet for the reasons previously stated.

Now the accuracy takes a lot of work but mainly, when you find the right combination, being consistent in everything to reproduce the results. And I'm not just talking the round and the rifle. The shooter has to be consistent. I use a lead sled to overcome some of my elementary skills in that. All good distance shooters are very consistent in what they do. I'm not there yet with all of it. I have posted some targets. But typical 100 yards is now averaging about 1 1/4" overall and at 200 yards it is a little more than double that. But I just haven't shot enough of those yet. Want average 1" at 100 and 2" at 200. And I can get there.

In short I believe that jacketed performance and cast lead and coating can be equal in accuracy at distance. Cast and coated certainly beat what I was getting out of the Remington Core Lock that I was using to hunt with. But those are meant for a six inch kill zone.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

[Stephen Cohen]

In my case Joe it is the challenge of doing the impossible. I can get some really top velocities from my 458 win mag but the recoil is more than I can handle so I settle for much lower velocities. In some calibers like my 357 and 357 maximum I have found some useful high velocities which allow me to reach out further with ease. If you had not invented a great product I would not be in a position to be able to challenge myself and what we have always thought. Velocity is not the be all and end all as we must have accuracy as well. Mind all my testing is done with rifles and not handguns although I do make cast for friends who have hand guns. Where would we be if Henry Ford never had a dream or in fact you yourself did not invent Hi-Tek. Faster is not always better but it is an interesting trip getting there. Regards Stephen

[RydForLyf]

Quick question to those of you that coat - size - coat...

Do you use a sizing lube, like Aqua Lube? If so, does the lube need to be cleaned off before the second coating of HT? I'm thinking the acetone or MEK might do that but not sure.

Thanks!

[ryanmattes]

I've never needed to lube HiTek coated bullets to size them, even as much as .004, although if I'm sizing down that much I'll usually do it in 2 steps. The HiTek makes the bullets go through slicker than... something about a goose.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Ausglock]

Quick question to those of you that coat - size - coat...

Do you use a sizing lube, like Aqua Lube? If so, does the lube need to be cleaned off before the second coating of HT? I'm thinking the acetone or MEK might do that but not sure.

Thanks!

no need to try and remove the Aqualube. Just apply the second coat and you are good to go.

[Tazza]

As already stated, there is no need to remove aqualube before re-coating, all of Joe's lubricants and coatings are all compatible.

To be honest, if you aren't needing to squeeze them down a lot, you won't need the aqualube. I have one mould that had a small imperfection that left a tail near the lube groove, i re-sized after one coat then added 2 more coats after to give a nice finish.

[RydForLyf]

Thanks everyone. This is all good news.

[HI-TEK]

I've never needed to lube HiTek coated bullets to size them, even as much as .004, although if I'm sizing down that much I'll usually do it in 2 steps. The HiTek makes the bullets go through slicker than... something about a goose.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Great description
We have been working with newly built load/pressure measuring equipment to actually determine sizing loads with and without Aqualube.
The equipment has an in line direct reading load cell, that records actual load pressure required to push trough a casts whilst sizing.
Test so far shows that Aqualubed coated casts, has an average of about 50% reduction of actual load pressure required to size coated casts.
These results now actually back up claims made, with the lubricating ability of Aqualube.
Those load reductions, are huge saving on elbow and arm loads when sizing manually, and a huge reduction of loads on automated sizing equipment and Dies, and also should reduce wear and tear of parts, and should reduce loads on reduction gears.
We have just modified the equipment with an in line, direct reading and higher capability load cell, as we are looking at doing all sorts of alloys and sizes/diameters, that require much higher loads that could not be done with existing set up, as load cell we used was inadequate to measure the higher loads required to size.
I am now trying to work out how these results can be published as there is a huge built up data and graphs so far with what was done.
As far as I am aware, this sort of actual data has not been done or published previously.
Interesting times ahead......

[Burnt Fingers]

Just as you don't have to lube cases when using a carbide die you don't have to lube Hi-Tek coated bullets...but the lube really makes a difference in the amount of force needed.

[Tazza]

Great description
We have been working with newly built load/pressure measuring equipment to actually determine sizing loads with and without Aqualube.
The equipment has an in line direct reading load cell, that records actual load pressure required to push trough a casts whilst sizing.
Test so far shows that Aqualubed coated casts, has an average of about 50% reduction of actual load pressure required to size coated casts.
These results now actually back up claims made, with the lubricating ability of Aqualube.
Those load reductions, are huge saving on elbow and arm loads when sizing manually, and a huge reduction of loads on automated sizing equipment and Dies, and also should reduce wear and tear of parts, and should reduce loads on reduction gears.
We have just modified the equipment with an in line, direct reading and higher capability load cell, as we are looking at doing all sorts of alloys and sizes/diameters, that require much higher loads that could not be done with existing set up, as load cell we used was inadequate to measure the higher loads required to size.
I am now trying to work out how these results can be published as there is a huge built up data and graphs so far with what was done.
As far as I am aware, this sort of actual data has not been done or published previously.
Interesting times ahead......

It would be quite an interesting graph to see. I wonder if you could go one step further, as each cast can have slightly different diameters, and with the addition of hi-tek can alter where the largest side is too. A good test could be if you get a bunch of cast, coated and not, don't lube anything and size to say .356, then you have a uniform size to work with. With your load cell sizing machine, size them to .355 with a control of plain lead, hitek coated, lead with aqualube, hitek with aqualube.

The more variables you can remove the more accurate data you can hopefully get.

It would be interesting to see if different alloys act differently, the harder it is, logic dictates that it would be harder to re-form in a sizing die.

I have carbide sizing dies, they are smooth as silk, they have a mirror finish and reduce a lot of force needed to size, but some i have that don't' have lube groves can be quite a task to run through due to not having bands for the lead to be pushed into.

[HI-TEK]

With people asking about speed and accuracy using casts this is a report from a user of Hi-Tek .
I hope I dont get in trouble for posting it.


I imagine you sell a lot more handgun bullets than rifle, if you sell any rifle bullets. But if you have the time try the Hi Tek in a rifle. Higher pressure and longer time in the barrel than the 9mm. I've used it in .223, .308, 45-70. It seems to give the same speed with a slight reduction in powder load over jacketed.
My 41.5 grains of H4895 with a 168 grain lead .308 bullet with gas check coated three times is giving me very good accuracy with no leading in my gun. Speeds are around 2600 fps. Lead is between 12-14 BHN.
In handgun I have used Hi Tek in .357 magnum, .380, .38 special, .44 magnum, and .45 auto. The last tested .380 gave same size groups as Hornady Critical Defence loads with less recoil. All with good accuracy and no leading. BHN on some of those Leads were around 10. The magnum loads were middle of the road and shot without gas checks. Still learning how to do this handloading casting stuff but I think you can get any accuracy you want with Hi Tek.

I did, accidentally, shoot some 44 mag Hi Tek coated with a load that made my hand sore. Disassembled all but three of the rounds. Somehow the Hornady progressive dropped a little too much Titegroup? I hand weigh Titegroup now. But still no lead in the barrel of the Ruger.

[HI-TEK]

Quick question to those of you that coat - size - coat...

Do you use a sizing lube, like Aqua Lube? If so, does the lube need to be cleaned off before the second coating of HT? I'm thinking the acetone or MEK might do that but not sure.

Thanks!


Hi RydForLyf
With Aqualube, once it is dry on any surface, it is not soluble or miscible with any cleaners or solvents. It repels all.
If you spill it onto areas where you don't want it, removal is by abrasive means.
If the product is used excessively, above recommended application rates, it can cause adhesion problems.
It is a powerful lubricant and a strong release agent.
That is why, I advise use to be just adequate to do the job. Any excess is wasted and may cause other unforeseen problems.

[RydForLyf]

Hi RydForLyf
With Aqualube, once it is dry on any surface, it is not soluble or miscible with any cleaners or solvents. It repels all.
If you spill it onto areas where you don't want it, removal is by abrasive means.
If the product is used excessively, above recommended application rates, it can cause adhesion problems.
It is a powerful lubricant and a strong release agent.
That is why, I advise use to be just adequate to do the job. Any excess is wasted and may cause other unforeseen problems.

Thanks Joe. Just wanted to check before making a mess.

[Stephen Cohen]

I would imagine Aqualube would be a real advantage when sizing while crimping gas checks, of is it likely to stop checks from staying seated. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

I would imagine Aqualube would be a real advantage when sizing while crimping gas checks, of is it likely to stop checks from staying seated. Regards Stephen

I haven't had much experience with it, but i don't remember the projectiles being that slippery that you couldn't pick it up. With how gas checks bite in, hopefully it wouldn't make them any harder to seat and hold on. Interesting thought though.

[Ausglock]

G'day all..
I've been a bit quiet lately. Been playing with the new Lee APP sizing dies and wanted to run them in the Lee non- breachlock C press that I use upside down for my auto sizer.
I use the old style Lee sizer dies, but the AAP dies have a nice gentle taper to them and need less sizing force.
So. tried the APP die... No go. There is a ring around the die that stops it going all the way into the 7/8 threaded hole in the press. So chucked it in the lathe and turned a few thou off the large section. Now it will pass right through the threaded hole in the press. it's a very neat fit. I took an old Lee Carbide crimp die and knocked the carbide ring out of it and use it to screw into the press to stop the APP die from falling out. Use the existing lock ring on the FCD to lock eveything up. Works great. Even the bullets that the motor would stall on will now size with little effort. The Hitek Aqualube makes it even easier. Lee makes an adaptor for using these APP dies in an O frame press. But the press has to be a Breechlock press. Now they work in a normal 7/8x14 press...

[Tazza]

G'day all..
I've been a bit quiet lately. Been playing with the new Lee APP sizing dies and wanted to run them in the Lee non- breachlock C press that I use upside down for my auto sizer.
I use the old style Lee sizer dies, but the AAP dies have a nice gentle taper to them and need less sizing force.
So. tried the APP die... No go. There is a ring around the die that stops it going all the way into the 7/8 threaded hole in the press. So chucked it in the lathe and turned a few thou off the large section. Now it will pass right through the threaded hole in the press. it's a very neat fit. I took an old Lee Carbide crimp die and knocked the carbide ring out of it and use it to screw into the press to stop the APP die from falling out. Use the existing lock ring on the FCD to lock eveything up. Works great. Even the bullets that the motor would stall on will now size with little effort. The Hitek Aqualube makes it even easier. Lee makes an adaptor for using these APP dies in an O frame press. But the press has to be a Breechlock press. Now they work in a normal 7/8x14 press...

Interesting, a mad mate is making some of these sizing does for his APP, i'll get some and i'll need to either made an adapter to fit them into the standard lee die, but i feel the slug will be too big for it to fit. My sizer will need a re-think to make the fit, but i'm sure a solution can be found.

The standard lee dies do require a lot more force to size with, the finish just isn't as nice.

[Ausglock]

my next auto sizer will use these dies as they come from Lee. they will be a drop-in fit.

[Tazza]

makes sense, they are dirt cheap and easy to replace.

[Avenger442]

I've gotten behind again. Missed this Lee App Automatic Processing Press or APP when it came out. Will this thing take the old regular Lee sizing dies or do you have to buy a whole new set of Breach Lock bullet sizers?

[Ausglock]

I've gotten behind again. Missed this Lee App Automatic Processing Press or APP when it came out. Will this thing take the old regular Lee sizing dies or do you have to buy a whole new set of Breach Lock bullet sizers?

you can use the old ones. but you need the breecklock adaptor to use the old ones in the APP

[RydForLyf]

you can use the old ones. but you need the breecklock adaptor to use the old ones in the APP

And one adapter comes with the press, but one is never enough.

[Jatz357]

G'day all..
I've been a bit quiet lately. Been playing with the new Lee APP sizing dies and wanted to run them in the Lee non- breachlock C press that I use upside down for my auto sizer.
I use the old style Lee sizer dies, but the AAP dies have a nice gentle taper to them and need less sizing force.
So. tried the APP die... No go. There is a ring around the die that stops it going all the way into the 7/8 threaded hole in the press. So chucked it in the lathe and turned a few thou off the large section. Now it will pass right through the threaded hole in the press. it's a very neat fit. I took an old Lee Carbide crimp die and knocked the carbide ring out of it and use it to screw into the press to stop the APP die from falling out. Use the existing lock ring on the FCD to lock eveything up. Works great. Even the bullets that the motor would stall on will now size with little effort. The Hitek Aqualube makes it even easier. Lee makes an adaptor for using these APP dies in an O frame press. But the press has to be a Breechlock press. Now they work in a normal 7/8x14 press...

Ausglock, I bought a few APP dies some months ago. The tests I've completed is they vary in size quite a bit compared to stated diameter. .357 I tried measures closer to .3565 and I'm getting variations with runout as well some are 3 - 4 10000ths.

Magma and RCBS dies I have used have been very accurate compared to stated diameter size and only 1 - 2 10000th runout.

The bearing surface of the APP dies is very short compared to Magma or RCBS and slightly shorter than Lee 7/8 dies. Smaller bearing area will reduce friction. When manual sizing I can feel projectiles that have lube grooves bump over the bearing surface whilst it's less noticeable with 7/8 dies and not noticeable with Magma or RCBS.

[Ausglock]

My .356 was going .3555 so it got dressed out to .3565
the .357 was .357
The .358 was .3575 and is now .358.

Honing took a bit as they are a lot harder than the 7/8x14 Lee sizer dies.
Diamond hone took care of it. and polished with 2400 wet n dry.

The absolute best sizer dies are made by Lathsmith, A member of this forum.
We run his sizer dies in our Magma sizemaster in 1/2 thou increments.

[Tazza]

I too have found wide variations in the lee dies, they do serve a purpose, but for commercial use, i don't believe they cut it.

I think my .356 die only lasted about 100,000 projectiles through it before i checked it and it was 2 thou over size.

I now have two carbide lee style ones that a mad mate made for me, I have done probably 150k each, and still dead on the original sizes. He is in the process is making some for his APP and i'll get a set that i will modify my sizer to take.

With a smooth die, you can feel the difference vs the lee ones, these are smooth as silk, sadly i can't tell you if i can feel the grooves when sizing, i haven't tried using it hand sizing lube grooved projectiles.

[kevin c]

To Joe and Trevor:

I just got the bonded release powder. Just a few questions, if I may (I can run them by Alan, too, but I'd like to ask the maker and the prime user/tester).

The instructions say to make a concentration of 5 grams per 150 ml (I used acetone). That's about half the strength Joe mentioned in the thread some time back. Is this a suspension or a solution? Is it like HiTek that needs very thorough shaking up just prior to application? I ask because the inside of my mixing and storage container has a pretty even dried coating of the stuff that looks slight grainy with occasional flecks or grains that are larger. Is that the look to go for, or do I need to shake it up more? Just a very thin, brushed on application, right?

Trevor, you reported putting the release not only in the cavities but also on the mold faces and the underside of the sprue plate. Top of the blocks too? No issues with parting lines or with lifting the plate off the blocks due to the release's film thickness?

When setting/bonding the release on the hot plate, does it matter if you close up the mold or open the blocks and sprue plate?

TIA, Gentlemen, and I hope you and yours are doing well there Down Under.

Kevin C

[Ausglock]

No issues at all.
parting lines are not changed.

It does fall out of suspension, so I shake before opening the jar.
I use a toothbrush to apply the mix to the molds.
Once the molds have been heated, I give them a light blow off with compressed air to remove any excess.
Then cast away..

[HI-TEK]

To Joe and Trevor:

I just got the bonded release powder. Just a few questions, if I may (I can run them by Alan, too, but I'd like to ask the maker and the prime user/tester).

The instructions say to make a concentration of 5 grams per 150 ml (I used acetone). That's about half the strength Joe mentioned in the thread some time back. Is this a suspension or a solution? Is it like HiTek that needs very thorough shaking up just prior to application? I ask because the inside of my mixing and storage container has a pretty even dried coating of the stuff that looks slight grainy with occasional flecks or grains that are larger. Is that the look to go for, or do I need to shake it up more? Just a very thin, brushed on application, right?

Trevor, you reported putting the release not only in the cavities but also on the mold faces and the underside of the sprue plate. Top of the blocks too? No issues with parting lines or with lifting the plate off the blocks due to the release's film thickness?

When setting/bonding the release on the hot plate, does it matter if you close up the mold or open the blocks and sprue plate?

TIA, Gentlemen, and I hope you and yours are doing well there Down Under.

Kevin C



Hello Kevin C.
The Bonded Release agent is a multi component product. Some parts will settle with standing. As Ausglock said, you simply mix it up before use.
Both as powder, and mixture in solvent, is quite stable.
All you have to consider is, stopping the loss of Acetone by evaporation by having good seal on the mixture container.
If you loose some Acetone by evaporation from mixture container, simply add a little more Acetone to suit your needs.
Keep in mind, you don't need a thick coating for the product to work well.
Looking forward to your report after you use the product..

By the way. people who cast their fishing sinkers, this is an excellent release agent for the Molds.

[kevin c]

Thanks, Gents. I plan on trying this on a new mold, one of an identical pair, with the other treated with the old aerosol mold release. Hopefully I'll be reporting back later this week.

[M.A.D]

Finally got off my bum to make some tungsten carbide Lee App dies for myself and a mate.. Made 0.3755, 0.4585, 0.3560, 0.5107, 0.4517, 0.3087, 0.3583. 0.5010. Will be making more for 357 and 44 mag. 288826

[Ausglock]

Finally got off my bum to make some tungsten carbide Lee App dies for myself and a mate.. Made 0.3755, 0.4585, 0.3560, 0.5107, 0.4517, 0.3087, 0.3583. 0.5010. Will be making more for 357 and 44 mag. 288826

Nice... Wouldn't mind a few myself in carbide....hint hint...lol
.3565 .3575 .358

[M.A.D]

Now i just need to make a punch for the 740 grain 500 S&W carbide die.. 288898

[Tazza]

I hope the fiddy cals size easily.

Your carbide dies are smooth as silk, the Lee ones, you can feel every machine mark....

[Ausglock]

I polish my Lee dies with 2400 wetndry on a spindle in the drill press.
Slick as snot now.

[M.A.D]

I polish my Lee dies with 2400 wetndry on a spindle in the drill press.
Slick as snot now.

There's a reason why Benchrest and especially VLD style projectiles are made on Carbide Dies of the correct grade, There's polished steel smooth and then there's Carbide Smooth.... Not to mention longevity, Steel dies are worn out well before Carbide are barely worn in.. I think i told Tazza to check the dies at around 1 million cycles

[Tazza]

There's a reason why Benchrest and especially VLD style projectiles are made on Carbide Dies of the correct grade, There's polished steel smooth and then there's Carbide Smooth.... Not to mention longevity, Steel dies are worn out well before Carbide are barely worn in.. I think i told Tazza to check the dies at around 1 million cycles

Both the .3565 and .3575 have had close on 200k through each and still drop dead on the same size as they did when i got them off you. I am still amazed at just how smooth they size too, the lee ones i can feel every machining mark when hand sizing, the carbide are so smooth. It sure says something when you can see how polished they are when you can see a reflection inside the die, mirror finish.

Looking forward to seeing the APP ones, and modifying my sizer so they will fit.

[Gremlin460]

:coffeecom

[Ausglock]

:coffeecom

Well... that's a first..
Grem with nothing to say...

What???? Cat got ya tongue???

[Gremlin460]

I am still amazed at just how smooth they size too, the lee ones i can feel every machining mark when hand sizing, the carbide are so smooth.

What's this "Hand Sizing" thingo???

[Tazza]

What's this "Hand Sizing" thingo???

Some are mongrels to size in the machine, so they have to get sized by hand, 100 SWC make my machine and me very sad. It mangles more of them than it actually correctly sizes.

[Ausglock]

Some are mongrels to size in the machine, so they have to get sized by hand, 100 SWC make my machine and me very sad. It mangles more of them than it actually correctly sizes.

Agree... the 105SWC are a pain in the coit through the Magma sizemaster. Even my home made sizer hates them.
I run them through the Lee APP with a Mr. bullet feeder doing the collating.

[358429]

Semiwadcutters, HiTek'edhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210923/7ac30f37cfae9454731b278f042487a9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210923/313382dad545c96636a1a11138d20ca1.jpg

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[Ausglock]

don't swirl for too long. Dump them a bit wet.
try pre-warming them before baking. they will be smooth rather than rough like in the pictures

[358429]

Does this texture present issues for loading and shooting?

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[RydForLyf]

Does this texture present issues for loading and shooting?

In short, no. Sizing will smooth out the mating surfaces.

[Ausglock]

The rough texture may indicate poor bonding to the alloy.
Do they pass the smash test?

[358429]

Lets see...

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[358429]

Just smashed them with the ball peen hammer on the concrete floor.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210923/4d8657f473e16e1e6eec485ce3b889ec.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210923/32953da66b3055dffa4ef4a1fdbb9d86.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210923/fdaf65e5870cb786409f9fc189580339.jpg

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[Ausglock]

good to go

[M.A.D]

Some are mongrels to size in the machine, so they have to get sized by hand, 100 SWC make my machine and me very sad. It mangles more of them than it actually correctly sizes.

Oh really? I will have to have a serious look at your machine, how the SWC bullets drop into the sizer etc... Its it just light weight eg 100 grain or does it do the same with say 158 swc?

[Jatz357]

Finally got off my bum to make some tungsten carbide Lee App dies for myself and a mate.. Made 0.3755, 0.4585, 0.3560, 0.5107, 0.4517, 0.3087, 0.3583. 0.5010. Will be making more for 357 and 44 mag. 288826

They look pretty flash. Reckon they would go well with my sizing machines.

[Tazza]

I'll post pictures of the care package I get yesterday. They would be ideal for your machines jatz.

M.a.d if you're up next week, check out what it does. 158 swc are ok, it's an issue of then not exiting the sliding bar. Ideally the punch should push through the hole, but mine is not setup to do that....

[358429]

[emoji41]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210925/0e122bdb2344577f32da1e9f35e3b2ad.jpg

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[kevin c]

Well, the new bonded mold release really makes the slugs drop easier from my 8 cav MP molds, but there are some wrinkles on the boolits. The molds are new, and maybe they just need to be run a few sessions to break in, but I'd like to be clear on just how heavy an application of the release is needed. I used a small artist's paint brush to apply the release, mixed in acetone at the concentration recommended. After drying the treated mold surfaces were dulled a bit, and the black finished underside of the sprue plate had a slight but visible gray film. The cavities had a few black deposits where the release pooled a bit. Too much?

[Ausglock]

Probably should have seasoned the new mold first.
Once the product has been treated and heated, just give the cavities and spruplate a light brushing with a toothbrush before casting.

[kevin c]

Thanks, Trevor.

[Jatz357]

Been a bit quite on here lately.

Just cleaning up my bench and though I'd share a photo of some of the projectiles I have coated and tested.

https://eminenceprojectiles.com.au/images/external/projectile_line_up.JPG

[Ausglock]

Yeah... Just casting, coating, baking, sizing, boxing and selling.

[Jatz357]

Yeah... Just casting, coating, baking, sizing, boxing and selling.

& Repeat.

[Tazza]

I'm finding it hard to find time to do the casting part, COVID has stuffed up my day job, had 3 weeks forced un-paid holidays, but that time has been spent doing things around the yard that needed doing. That and other lingering projects i have been putting off that took longer to do than i hoped they would.

I managed to get about 10k .30 cal 180 grain cast and coated the first week, i just need to get on the sizing part of the process.

[M.A.D]

I'm finding it hard to find time to do the casting part, COVID has stuffed up my day job, had 3 weeks forced un-paid holidays, but that time has been spent doing things around the yard that needed doing. That and other lingering projects i have been putting off that took longer to do than i hoped they would.

I managed to get about 10k .30 cal 180 grain cast and coated the first week, i just need to get on the sizing part of the process.

Im working on the 308 and 312 carbide dies

[Jatz357]

I'm finding it hard to find time to do the casting part, COVID has stuffed up my day job, had 3 weeks forced un-paid holidays, but that time has been spent doing things around the yard that needed doing. That and other lingering projects i have been putting off that took longer to do than i hoped they would.

I managed to get about 10k .30 cal 180 grain cast and coated the first week, i just need to get on the sizing part of the process.

That's not good to hear, Tazza. I've had enough of COVID stuffing everything up too.

My biggest issue is no space and next, just having too many projects on the go. Had an offer to share some space within a large shed but I don't think it will work out for the best.

So now if all goes well I may have a new business unit to move into around Xmas time. If I can sort out that deal I'll have about 4x the floor area I have now and a stack more height for pallet racking and storage.

[Tazza]

The industry i'm in has been on a decline for years, COVID has just helped make it even worse. I told them we needed a different line, but i'm sure we all know how the higher up think, or don't think.

I have far too many projects started or on the to do list that i'll never ever finish them with only the odd weekend available as every second sunday is generally my range day.

I have plenty of land to make space, the enclosed water tight space requires money to set up sheds, sheds that are the size i'd really like are more than a car......

Yeah, sharing space in theory is a good idea, even if you're good friends with the other person, but thing can go south and cause you all sorts of issues, i have seen it a few times. I hope which ever way you go it does work out well for you.

[DDriller]

Finally used some of the bonded release agent today. After mold got up to temperature the bullets were falling out before I got the mold fully open. This was on a mold that I had to tap on many times to get the bullets out. Tried it on a new buckshot mold and it worked extremely well.
I am going to coat the buckshot with Hi-Tek. Do I coat it before I tumble like on bullets before sizing? I normally tumble for 8 - 12 hours to smooth the area the sprue was cut.

[HI-TEK]

Finally used some of the bonded release agent today. After mold got up to temperature the bullets were falling out before I got the mold fully open. This was on a mold that I had to tap on many times to get the bullets out. Tried it on a new buckshot mold and it worked extremely well.
I am going to coat the buckshot with Hi-Tek. Do I coat it before I tumble like on bullets before sizing? I normally tumble for 8 - 12 hours to smooth the area the sprue was cut.

Thank you for posting your findings. Most appreciated. Glad the bonded Mold release worked out.
Can you please post a picture of the Buck Shot you are wanting to coat with Hi-Tek coating?
That way I may be able to shed some light on if you need to tumble or not before coating.
I would like to see, how much metal is left after Sprue cutter has removed the excess?

Just a quick note, the Hi-Tek bonded Mold release, works very well with Fishing sinker Molds, and badly corroded Molds as well.
You can paint on the mixture, and where there is pitting, just add a little more into the cavities and dry. The Mold should work just fine as the alloy cannot remove the release agent within the corrosion holes, and the Lead will not stick to those areas.

[Ausglock]

I am going to coat the buckshot with Hi-Tek. Do I coat it before I tumble like on bullets before sizing? I normally tumble for 8 - 12 hours to smooth the area the sprue was cut.

G'day.
I tumble my 00 buck for 6 hours and then coat. No problem.

[Tazza]

G'day.
I tumble my 00 buck for 6 hours and then coat. No problem.

I have never coated buckshot, but i'd tumble it till the surface is how you want it, then coat.

[Petander]

G'day.
I tumble my 00 buck for 6 hours and then coat. No problem.

I've done the same.

Then I compared tumbled vs non-tumbled and didn"t see a difference in patterns so I don"t bother with tumbling any more. Just coat.

If you tumble, don"t put too much shot at once. I kept breaking tumblers by (probably) overloading them.

[Ausglock]

Hi-Tek works great but BCB Coating works better.

Ha... Yeah...... right.

[Ausglock]

tried some BCB black.
Wasn't impressed.
finish was dull and blotchy.
Acetone (UN1090) is easy to find at the local hardware store.
MEK and MIBK are not a stocked item at hardware stores and has to be special order. the extra cost of sourcing these solvents with the included freight cost doesn't float my boat.
But if it works for you, Knock yourself out.
I'll stick with what I know works, and my customers are happy.

[DDriller]

Thank you for posting your findings. Most appreciated. Glad the bonded Mold release worked out.
Can you please post a picture of the Buck Shot you are wanting to coat with Hi-Tek coating?
That way I may be able to shed some light on if you need to tumble or not before coating.
I would like to see, how much metal is left after Sprue cutter has removed the excess?

https://imgur.com/AgMDEbJ

[HI-TEK]

https://imgur.com/AgMDEbJ

Thank you for posting. Now I understand why you have to tumble these. It would take quite a bit to make these balls truly round and aerodynamic in shape.
From what I have read, others do the same thing and coat it successfully with the Hi-Tek coatings afterwards.

[Tazza]

tried some BCB black.
Wasn't impressed.
finish was dull and blotchy.
Acetone (UN1090) is easy to find at the local hardware store.
MEK and MIBK are not a stocked item at hardware stores and has to be special order. the extra cost of sourcing these solvents with the included freight cost doesn't float my boat.
But if it works for you, Knock yourself out.
I'll stick with what I know works, and my customers are happy.

I'm glad i don't use MEK anymore, easy to get if you know where, but it's more expensive than Acetone, stinks REALLY bad

Never use BCB, if it's the product i think it is, didn't it take a long time to dry before you could bake after coating? Hi-tek can be re-baked within an hour if the weather conditions are right.

I'm happy with Hi-Tek, faster to apply than the old product i used, cheaper, and i like the old bugger i buy it off, being made in australia is a plus.

[Ausglock]

With the Kryptonite Green, MEK gives a darker tone than Acetone.

[OldBearHair]

yeah , This Quote Originally Posted by nicovanj View Post
Hi-Tek works great but BCB Coating works better.
Ha... Yeah...... right.

[Tazza]

With the Kryptonite Green, MEK gives a darker tone than Acetone.

Interesting, i wonder why that is. I have used up all my MEK, so i can test that with the 122 red i use to see if it does that too.

Acetone is way more convenient, if i ever run out, i just run off to bunnings for more.

[Petander]

470 Nitro Express.

Hi Tek TMG Gold coating, Lee 400 grain plain base plinker load @ 2050 fps. Yes plinker, compared to full house 500 grain 2250 fps load, this is very easy to shoot. A heavy rifle.

Shoots clean.

https://i.postimg.cc/8z6LnJW7/IMG-20211016-WA0000.jpg

[ryanmattes]

Hi-tek can be re-baked within an hour if the weather conditions are right.

Hell, mine usually only sit long enough to cool to ambient temp before I recoat.

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