simple Hi-Tek coating

[Petander]

Thanks Joe. That's what I thought,just wanted to make sure.

I'm only asking because my unknown bismuth alloy seems to melt at 185 °C or so. It behaves in a funny way, everything is good until you take the bullets out of the oven, 2 last min @ 180-183. Then,after about 45 secs in a cool 5°C room they start to form little alloy droplets on the surface.

If I cool them slower,like under a towel, less droplets form.

https://i.postimg.cc/RV5z3v0H/IMG-20200112-174555-102.jpg

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Petander;4805115]

I'm only asking because my unknown bismuth alloy seems to melt at 185 °C or so. It behaves in a funny way, everything is good until you take the bullets out of the oven, 2 last min @ 180-183. Then,after about 45 secs in a cool 5°C room they start to form little alloy droplets on the surface.

If I cool them slower,like under a towel, less droplets form.

Petander,

The explanation for this phenomena may be, that coating, as you know reflects heat or is very poor transfer conductor of heat, so now, it is working in reverse.
Coating seems to prevent adequate and quick cooling to take place, and internal part of alloy stays liquid for longer period by the insulating property of the coating.
I suspect, that after baking, the outside layer, as it chills, also starts to contract/shrink , (putting pressure onto alloy) and internal layer of alloy has not lost enough heat, and remains liquid, so this combination, forces melted metal to the surface, from inside coated alloy .
Your observation in controlling cooling rate may be confirming this, as the insulation, (coating plus cover, towel) is allowing slower release of temperature through the coating, which allows internal part of alloy also to set solid, as cooling rate is now also much more even and more controlled.

[OldBearHair]

Hey there Petander, Wow ,you guys are really trying hard for perfection.. I salute you. Should you want those bismuth bullets to cool way slower,my suggestion would be to take them from the oven and quickly put them on a bed of ashes and cover them with more ashes. The ashes should be 12 inches thick with the bullets in the middle. The ashes holds the heat well and releases it slowly. You could use a probe thermometer to find when they have cooled sufficiently. This is the way a blacksmith normalizes steel. The bismuth may harden to unusable as it cools, opposite to steel and then again it may not. Who Knows? It might be the best way to do it.

[Stephen Cohen]

I wonder if water quench would stop them sweating as they do, since you say the problem only appears when you remove them from the oven. Of cause I have no idea what this would do to Bismuth alloy. I can't say I blame them for sweating I would also if I was in a 190 deg oven with a probe in my ?. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

I wonder if water quench would stop them sweating as they do, since you say the problem only appears when you remove them from the oven. Of cause I have no idea what this would do to Bismuth alloy. I can't say I blame them for sweating I would also if I was in a 190 deg oven with a probe in my ?. Regards Stephen

Stephen,
From what I can gather, ( I may be wrong), it is the sudden chilling that seems to be causing the "bleed" from internally from alloy.
There are many recipes on the net, that can supply various results from this metal. Some use slow cooling and others use fast cooling when trying to obtain various results.
From my understanding, which may be totally incorrect here, is that rapid cooling of molten metals forms super small crystalline structures. I don't know what is result can be obtained with Bismuth, with slow, and controlled cooling rates.
For this metal, the normal treatment seems not to work, and we don't really know if slow or fast cooling produces best results for ammo production that can be reproduced and be useful.
I am thinking with Lead, we all know what happens with this metal and its alloys, but with Bismuth, this is a totally new field of experiments.

[Stephen Cohen]

Thank you Joe, it would seem that this Bismuth is a funny animal so to speak, Water quenching may actually be dangerous then. I think I will stick with lead alloy with luck lead alloy will remain legal for the few years I have left. Regards Stephen

[Petander]

Yes I'm just experimenting with the bismuth I have. It has been made into shot alloy,probably with added tin. Pure bismuth melts around 270°C or so.

I just wanted to see if Hi Tek bonds to bismuth and yes,it does. To be continued... I'll make my own alloy with less tin so it melts higher.

https://i.postimg.cc/W3Gd1YXZ/IMG-20200112-154446.jpg

[Avenger442]

I may have missed it but, did you say what the hardness of the bismuth alloy was?

This probably comes under the heading of something I might experiment with, like the addition of copper to the alloy, but not use. It's always a good idea to have a plan B. But wheel weights are still out there. Roto Metals still sells casting alloy. And, because I only cast for myself, I have stores that would last me the next twenty years.

Roto Metals list bismuth bullet casting metal at about $15 + a pound and lead hard ball at about $3 + a pound plus shipping of course. My wheel weights cost me about $0.40 a pound plus and couple hours of my time and $1 worth of gas. So no comparison in the cost category.

There has been some experimenting with casting bullets out of zinc. This would probably not be able to be used with the Hi Tek.

[Petander]

My bismuth here is 20 BHN and brittle.

I wanted to try Hi Tek coating bismuth before ordering alloy from Rotometals... their 10% tin alloy melts a bit low,too,let's see.

At least I can make lead-free pistol ammo now,fwiw.

https://i.postimg.cc/K8kDH5vT/IMG-20200111-153701.jpg

[Petander]

Guess what colour combination?

https://i.postimg.cc/cHLNVNd9/IMG-20200114-224855-794.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/g2LyHwR4/IMG-20200114-224240.jpg

[HI-TEK]

Guess what colour combination?

https://i.postimg.cc/cHLNVNd9/IMG-20200114-224855-794.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/g2LyHwR4/IMG-20200114-224240.jpg


My colour mix guess is
First picture is TRUBLU plus TMG Gold
Second picture is TRUBLU plus Modified TMG Gold.

[HI-TEK]

My bismuth here is 20 BHN and brittle.

I wanted to try Hi Tek coating bismuth before ordering alloy from Rotometals... their 10% tin alloy melts a bit low,too,let's see.

At least I can make lead-free pistol ammo now,fwiw.

https://i.postimg.cc/K8kDH5vT/IMG-20200111-153701.jpg


I know that Lead alloy with more than 20BHN hardness was coated and used successfully in Rifle ammo.
If Bismuth/alloy, hold up the high energy deformation, it also may work with Rifle, but not sure, and be very careful about such use.

[Tazza]

I wonder if the biggest issue with using it in rifles could be the melting point. It melts lower than lead alloys do, wonder if that could be an issue? Unless you can alloy it with other metals to get the melting point closer to lead.

[HI-TEK]

I wonder if the biggest issue with using it in rifles could be the melting point. It melts lower than lead alloys do, wonder if that could be an issue? Unless you can alloy it with other metals to get the melting point closer to lead.

You may be correct with low melt point of Bismuth to be a major question factor.
Even with Lead alloys, gas checks were used, as the heat from powders affected base area and resulted in gas bypass cuts and Leading.
I don't know for sure, but it seemed from various feed backs, that applying two or three coats of Hi-Tek, removed the need for Gas Checks, and no Leading or gas cutting was evident.
Because of the high insulating property of Hi-Tek, the only way to determine suitability is to try it with Bismuth or its alloys.

[Tazza]

I wonder just how much melting of the base actually occurs, causing leading. The amount of time the projectile is subject to the heat of burning powder would be in the milliseconds. Surely not enough time for it to melt? I always thought of a gas check being a good solid base for the gas from the burning powder to push on, creating a tight seal in the bore. I'd like to think the bulk of the heat in the actual projectile is friction between it and the barrel.

With the layer of hi-tek, it means it needs a lot of heat and pressure to get to the lead under it, i have run coated "soft" lead in my race gun without leading issues, soft as in wheel weight hardness. I do get carbon build up in the compensator (good 'ol AP100), but a soak in hoppes no9 gets rid of that easily. The barrel was only ever cleaned with a plastic brush and a wet patch.

I know i can get away with 2 coats, but i do 3 just so they look "pretty"

[Stephen Cohen]

I wonder just how much melting of the base actually occurs, causing leading. The amount of time the projectile is subject to the heat of burning powder would be in the milliseconds. Surely not enough time for it to melt? I always thought of a gas check being a good solid base for the gas from the burning powder to push on, creating a tight seal in the bore. I'd like to think the bulk of the heat in the actual projectile is friction between it and the barrel.

With the layer of hi-tek, it means it needs a lot of heat and pressure to get to the lead under it, i have run coated "soft" lead in my race gun without leading issues, soft as in wheel weight hardness. I do get carbon build up in the compensator (good 'ol AP100), but a soak in hoppes no9 gets rid of that easily. The barrel was only ever cleaned with a plastic brush and a wet patch.

I know i can get away with 2 coats, but i do 3 just so they look "pretty"

I tend to agree with you Tazza, back in the dark ages of wax lube I tried cardboard gas checks which were just discs punched from primer boxes, I used these in my 9mm auto to try and stop leading, it did not work. I found that there was no burning of the discs and in fact one could still read the writing on them, I have to say I no longer believe that the heat generated by powder flame has any effect on cast bullet bases, it is as you stated such a short duration to have any effect. I have never seen or know of anyone who has seen a cast bullet base melted by firing. In the case of Bismuth I would not bet my life or the safety of my firearm on it. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

I tend to agree with you Tazza, back in the dark ages of wax lube I tried cardboard gas checks which were just discs punched from primer boxes, I used these in my 9mm auto to try and stop leading, it did not work. I found that there was no burning of the discs and in fact one could still read the writing on them, I have to say I no longer believe that the heat generated by powder flame has any effect on cast bullet bases, it is as you stated such a short duration to have any effect. I have never seen or know of anyone who has seen a cast bullet base melted by firing. In the case of Bismuth I would not bet my life or the safety of my firearm on it. Regards Stephen

Stephen
You are correct with heat affecting base of cast.
My explanation was not adequately clear when I referred to heat and gas cutting.
If we examine gas cutting, there is a tapering melting starting from edge of base and the melting of alloy travels along bearing surfaces. The widest melt is near the edge of the base, and the travel of gas cutting, tapers off as gasses travel towards to pointed end of cast.
I was really trying to refer to this phenomena. The gasses travelling/bypassing alloy simply is hot enough to melt that alloy.
If Cast correctly sized for bore, hot gasses are prevented in majority to do damage like gas cutting. The heat behind well sealing alloy, should not damage alloy due to short resident time of that alloy after firing.
I agree also with Tazza, that friction heat by Lead and bore causes damage to cast.

[Petander]

My colour mix guess is
First picture is TRUBLU plus TMG Gold
Second picture is TRUBLU plus Modified TMG Gold.

Spot on,Sir!

The mix was done in the bowl,2 ml TruBlu and 3 ml Gold. 5 lbs Bullets were "pre-wetted" with ~2 ml of metho for a slightly longer swirl time. Very low humidity here now. Surface temp was max 185°C at the end of bake for max 30 sec,bullet core being 180-182°C for the last 2.15 min.

Smashing felt like 15 BHN after setting overnight.

https://i.postimg.cc/vB9vcfZp/IMG-20200115-083544-328.jpg

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, I fully understood what you were trying to put forward in your first post, and I certainly did not mean to assert you were wrong in what you were trying to convey as I agree with all you said. I am certain a properly sized and Hi-Tek coated cast bullet will never suffer any gas cutting. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I actually considered the post by Tazza to be a look at things from a different angle, especially his mentioning about a coat of Hi-Tek allowing the use of soft lead alloys in many cases. Regards Stephen

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/CxwJQ3Fn/IMG-20200118-013520-321.jpg

[HI-TEK]

https://i.postimg.cc/CxwJQ3Fn/IMG-20200118-013520-321.jpg


How pretty are they...…
Purple ???? how did you get that colour?

[slide]

Joe, I can't figure out a way to get a bhn on hi-tek. I am going to take a break from it and maybe try it again later.

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I can't figure out a way to get a bhn on hi-tek. I am going to take a break from it and maybe try it again later.

Thanks Slide,
I had always had suspicions that it was not going to be an easy task. You had a go, and that is what counts.
I have had another thought when you feel like having another play.
I am wondering, if you use a piece of sheet Lead, (roofing Lead) scuff it up on one side, to remove surface oxidation, and coat that side with HI-TEK.
It may be easier to simply brush on some powder onto scuffed side because the Lead sheet is laying flat.
May be do a couple or 3 coats. Bake all layers well and don't worry about colour.
Then, when cool, do a hardness test on coated side, then do a hardness test on opposite (uncoated) side.
I think, (my theory, and don't know if it will work or not), that a flat sheet Lead may be easier to coat evenly and do measurements on, than a cast alloy.

[slide]

I"ll give a go when ready. Good idea!

[Ausglock]

Joe..
Whay not take a large bullet, say a 230gn 45 and machine a flat on one side.
coat it, bake it x2 then machine a flat on the other side to remove coating. that way you have a bullet that has been through the same process. 1 side coated and the other uncoated. hardness test both sides.

[Petander]

How pretty are they...…
Purple ???? how did you get that colour?

That's a Mystery Mix with Candy Apple Red and some other colours which I don't remember...

Blue is shooting fine,I was clinging an A4 -size plate @ 75 m pretty good with 38 Special wadcutters.

This target is typical 25 m.

https://i.postimg.cc/TYYvf7w4/IMG-20200118-143815-068.jpg

[slide]

Ausglock, I will try your idea too!

[Petander]

My tester reads a little higher BHN with Hi Tek coating.

Like the coated bullet here reads 12 BHN but the scratched reads 10. 10 is correct for the lead.

I have no idea of the actual hardness of Hi Tek costing though, if that's what you folks are talking about.

https://i.postimg.cc/mkPHzyXQ/IMG-20200118-232416-507.jpg

[slide]

We are trying to determine if hi-tek does have bhn. I am beginning to wonder why,this one is a doozy!

[HI-TEK]

My tester reads a little higher BHN with Hi Tek coating.

Like the coated bullet here reads 12 BHN but the scratched reads 10. 10 is correct for the lead.

I have no idea of the actual hardness of Hi Tek costing though, if that's what you folks are talking about.

https://i.postimg.cc/mkPHzyXQ/IMG-20200118-232416-507.jpg

Petander
A question was asked as to actual hardness of cured HI-TEK.
Various methods were tried, without success.
From your results, it seems that the HI-TEK actually offers 2 BHN surface hardness to cast alloys. I don't know what a 2 BHN number increase relates to alloy that is 10BHN.
I would think, that the 2 BHN increase would be beneficial.

[slide]

Those testers are not precise enough. I tried countless times with mine. You don't know when you are still in the hi-tek or have broken thru to the lead.I wish it was that easy. I tried measuring a plain bullet and then measuring each coat which turned out to be two thousands thick. Under magnifacation I marked two thousands on my hardness tester. Each measurement was different. Didn't lend itself to accuracy. Will keep trying!

[HI-TEK]

Those testers are not precise enough. I tried countless times with mine. You don't know when you are still in the hi-tek or have broken thru to the lead.I wish it was that easy. I tried measuring a plain bullet and then measuring each coat which turned out to be two thousands thick. Under magnifacation I marked two thousands on my hardness tester. Each measurement was different. Didn't lend itself to accuracy. Will keep trying!

Slide,
as you have discovered, the thick lump of HI-TEK is very brittle and pressure from a penetrometer type test gauge will shatter test piece.

Petander seems to have measured some differences with and without coating. With coating it was 12BHN and same alloy without coating was 10 BHN. There seemed an increase of 2BHN on surface hardness of coated alloy.

I refer back to my previously posted comparison for HI-TEK (I don't know if it is directly relevant, but may be indicative), quote, "if you try to do that with a piece of glass say 1/4 inch thick, the glass will shatter, and if you had that same glass in micron thickness, it will flex."
This is what seems to be with Hi-Tek .

There may be a hardness test for plastics/polymers that use a different type of tester. I don't know if another hardness tester can be directly converted to BHN results.

[slide]

I just thought of something. I know a guy that has a powder coat shop. He has a gizmo that he tests powdercoat with. A sample is placed under this thing and then dropped. Looks like there is a weight on it. After testing he look for cracks and such things. I f you put a cube of hi-tek under that thing maybe it might tell us something. I will try and get the proper name for it. Joe, you probably know what I am talking about. Could be a wild goose chase.

[slide]

Looks like they call it an impact tester. I will ask if I can try it.

[Stephen Cohen]

I am sure that a 2BHN gain would play some part in good result one gets but I believe there are many other attributes with Hi-Tek that surpass a 2BHN gain. Recently I cast a batch of pure lead bullets Lee 125gr with just a small amount of tin added to help fill out, and while very soft they performed as well as my usual castings, the pistol used was a 6'' 686 and load was 7.4gr AP 70 so the tester told. I don't believe it is overly hard to get good performance in a pistol using Hi-Tek. Loads that would lead the muzzle end of a pistol using old style lubes would not lead using Hi-Tek. Where Hi-Tek performance really shines in my view is in rifle loads, I don't believe I ever managed to produce a rifle load that did not produce some leading when using the old style lubes at relatively low velocity. The longer barrels of rifles almost guaranteed the lube would run out before the bullet exited and leading would result, while I know some have found ways to alleviate this too a degree it was never my luck to do so until I started using Hi-Tek. To me the point of using a rifle is the extra velocity and power one gets even when using pistol cartridges and this coating makes that so much easier to do with much less mess while maintaining accuracy. If my NT Buffalo hunt comes off this year I will be using Joe's slick friction modified heat resisting magic elixir to coat the cast I will be using as I know I can drive them hard with accuracy. Regards Stephen

[slide]

I agree 100%. I have been experimenting off and on with 223 and hi-tek. I had a little trouble with leading but when I started using A.T.M. leading went away. Have you did any testing with and without gas checks? It is on my list. With all the rain we have been getting the range is underwater in spots. The main problem is the range sets right on the wa****a river. and snakes come up and get in the buildings.You have got to be watchful.

[Petander]

With these testers,everything is easily fluctuating. I've used mine since 2002,you need bullets of the right size (38 is good) and you need to place them straight for uniform readings. Some folks hate Saeco testers because of that, you really need a touch

I routinely test every batch I cast. Hi Tek has always read a little more than plain bullets from the same batch... but like many folks have found out, we can use softer alloys now. So coating sort of has a "hardening" effect.

[Stephen Cohen]

slide most of my cast are shot checkless the exception is the 458wm it just shoots better with checks, I have a batch of Lee 150gr, 160gr, !70gr and 180gr that are checked and waiting for testing. I have not done much testing with cast under 357 calibre. I have to agree with Petander that fit is still king and undersized bullet will not shoot as accurately even if coated with Hi-Tek, but an undersized bullet can be coated again and taken to the correct diameter. I have found that in my guns accuracy suffers badly if I try to seat and crimp in one operation and many of my fellow shooters have found the same, this is not a problem as I have always found it better to crimp in another operation if needed. I don't use checks for the 460SW and accuracy is outstanding it seems only the 458 needs checks, all others are plain base with velocity and accuracy to 2,400fps. Regards Stephen

[slide]

Thanks Stephen and Petander. All good points.

[HI-TEK]

Looks like they call it an impact tester. I will ask if I can try it.


Slide,
you are correct, what is used by powder coaters is an impact tester. It is used to determine if baked coating will crack or split or come off surfaces after baking. It is similar to smash test as used with coated cast. I don't think it is a hardness tester.

[slide]

OK, I thought of something else. Quite a few of the guys are using art pencils to test the bhn of lead, both on ingots and bullets.. These pencils have different hardness levels and you start out low and work your way up until you find one that will scribe the lead. That is your bhn. I could see a problem with using the same pressure everytime and not get past the coating and down into the lead. I think it would be easier scribing a line and looking at it than punching a hole. I never could tell where I was with the hardness tester. What do you think?

[Tazza]

That seems like a plausible idea, unless the coating can develop a hard outer crust that would not scratch the way you hoped to be able to do.

[Stephen Cohen]

Tazza to prove your point I just got two identical hard cast one coated the other not, using a dental pick I used what I would say as light pressure and cut a groove in the uncoated lead. I bent the dental pick trying to scratch the Hi-Tek coating. I guess I am satisfied the coating is bloody hard regardless of what the BHN may be. In the early days when I first started coating my own I had many who refused to put Hi-Tek through their barrels because of how hard it was, but hard has many meanings to many people. Regards Stephen

[slide]

These pencils go up to 5 to 28 bhn. You have to sharpen them a certain way. We'll give it a go!

[HI-TEK]

These pencils go up to 5 to 28 bhn. You have to sharpen them a certain way. We'll give it a go!

Slide,
Brilliant idea, and hope it works.
Pencil hardness has been around for years.
My rough guess is, that the BHN hardness of HI-TEK is about 35-40.
I don't know if there are pencils that hard.
Best is try and see.... Hope it works out.

Just had a thought, what is hardness of Copper used as Jackets on soft Lead?
Same question can be asked for Electroplated Copper as used on Lead.

[HI-TEK]

Tazza
I guess I am satisfied the coating is bloody hard regardless of what the BHN may be. In the early days when I first started coating my own I had many who refused to put Hi-Tek through their barrels because of how hard it was, but hard has many meanings to many people. Regards Stephen

Stephen,
This HI-TEK coating is a contradiction in itself.
It is hard, but as used, it deforms with smash test and large down sizing without breaking.
What is totally different is, that the coating self lubricates, and, also offers resistance for correct pressure build up which is needed for speed and accuracy.

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, contradiction to itself is a good way to describe Hi-Tek, Hard yet malleable when tested with hammer, self lubricating, and resistance as pointed out. There lays the problem of testing the BHN, on what product do we put it in order to test the BHN. I think the only way to test BHN would be to coat something that the coating could be peeled from, perhaps zink sheeting, if the coating could be built up enough maybe then it could be tested. I may be wrong but I feel that even if BHN can be measured it will be of little use to us as casters because of the contradiction of Hi-Tek itself. Bit like the air we breath, we know its there but can't see it. I doubt the pencil test will work as I think Hi-Tek is way harder than any pencil, of cause I could be wrong. Regards Stephen

[slide]

Stephen, I agree 100%. But, when I get something on my mind I have to keep trying. Even if we find out what purpose will it serve? We will have learned a little more. Maybe part of the selling point. I know powder coaters like powder coat because they can shoot a softer alloy because of the bhn of powder coat. Maybe that was what I was thinking of. I will keep trying.

[HI-TEK]

I think the only way to test BHN would be to coat something that the coating could be peeled from, perhaps zinc sheeting, if the coating could be built up enough maybe then it could be tested. I may be wrong but I feel that even if BHN can be measured it will be of little use to us as casters because of the contradiction of Hi-Tek itself. Bit like the air we breath, we know its there but can't see it. I doubt the pencil test will work as I think Hi-Tek is way harder than any pencil, of cause I could be wrong. Regards Stephen

Stephen
I had suggested to Slide to fill a Silicone small ice tray pocket with powder. Then bake it for at least 10 minutes or more. Time did not matter. I was hoping for a lump thick enough to test hardness. If I recall correctly, when trying to remove the finished baked product, it shattered.
I don't know all the details of dimensions after baking. I was hoping that we may get about a 1/4 inch thick fused solid that can be BHN tested.
What is of concern is, that BHN test tool is essentially a penetrometer. Pressure to force test point into baked Hi-Tek may simply shatter the lump.
I hope that Slide has some success..


Slide, you mentioned BHN of powder coating. What is the BHN of powder coat that has convinced users of suitability?

Any one has any information about BHN hardness of
1. Powder Coat
2. Copper Jacket metal
3. Copper Plating metal, after deposition.

[Stephen Cohen]

Slide, I hope you work out how to do it, if it wasn't for those like you who hate to give up, we would still be chucking rocks. Regards Stephen

[slide]

Joe, if my info is correct powder coat runs around 26-28 bhn, copper jacket runs around 30 bhn. Copper plating is so thin evidently it can't be measured. I did a little more searching on pencils and found out a lot of powder coating companies use them to test powder coat. They have a little gizmo with a wheel on it. It is designed for flat surfaces. Would you know what that thing is called?

[HI-TEK]

Joe, if my info is correct powder coat runs around 26-28 bhn, copper jacket runs around 30 bhn. Copper plating is so thin evidently it can't be measured. I did a little more searching on pencils and found out a lot of powder coating companies use them to test powder coat. They have a little gizmo with a wheel on it. It is designed for flat surfaces. Would you know what that thing is called?

Slide, it would be interesting to learn what they used.
I am thinking it may be a Shore Durometer type D, which was used for plastics and coatings.

[slide]

Joe, found this online,thought you might find this interesting.

Pencil# 6B 4 to 5 bhn

5B 7 to 8 bhn

4B 9 bhn

3B 10 bhn

2B 11 to 12 bhn

B 13 bhn

HB 14 to 15 bhn

F#2 16 to 18 bhn

H 20 to 22 bhn

2H 26 to 28 bhn

I will have a set of pencils in a couple of days, coming off of amazon,will let you know what I think I find out!

[Avenger442]

Back on idea of testing without gas check. I've repeated this story several times so forgive if you have read before. Back several years ago a guy that was reading our post wanted to use Hi Tek in his M1A. He asked me if I had ever tried to shoot Hi Tek .308s without the gas check. At the time I was shooting loads that would have given me guesstimated 2700+ fps. Didn't have a way to check the speed back then. After several checks of speeds with the Lab Radar and Hi Tek they may have been closer to 2800 fps. It does give you a bump up on speed. Anyway, I shot 10 rounds of the Lee C309 160R coated with three coats of Hi Tek 1035 Gold liquid without the gas checks. There was light leading about the last inch of the barrel in the Remington 700. By the way, this bullet coated with Hi Tek has given me the most accurate loads in my rifle at a more sedate speed of around 2600 fps. The lead was about 13 BHN.

Back then I had not learned much about shooting lead. But my conclusion then was that it was unwise to shoot Hi Tek coated without gas checks at speeds that you would not use with other methods of lubrication without the check. Some time after that I thought it might have been the fit of the bullet in the barrel. With a gas check mold the tail of the bullet is smaller without the check. So the tail of that bullet might not obdurate enough to fit the barrel and it may have been gas cutting. But if it was gas cutting wouldn't it have shown up sooner than the end of the barrel?

My thinking now, to do a test gas check vs no gas check and Hi Tek, is that you would have to have two molds just alike except one for gas check and one for bullets without. And a rifle bullet of the smaller calibers .30 caliber and down, .223 would be good. Rifle because you can push it faster and longer time in the barrel. Smaller caliber because there is more stress to the lead on a smaller surface area when the bullet is fired. More stress more heat. My thinking. Which isn't always correct.

Lee doesn't make a rifle bullet mold without gas check, with the exception of a 30 caliber boat tail, until you get to the 375 Winchester. My guess is that they have a good reason for that. Someone could have a custom mold made. Or it might be cheaper to modify a mold to remove the gas check bump.

What's your thinking?

[slide]

I think NOE has or had molds that had both gas check and no gas check molds in the same blocks. I will check and see.

[slide]

Sold out Avenger,I only saw one a 46 grain.

[Avenger442]

Yeah, modifying an aluminum mold is probably the best way. I'm just not sure I could do it without ruining the mold.

[slide]

Where's Ausglock when you need him? I think he has done what you are talking about.

[Avenger442]

I think it's like 6AM over there

[HI-TEK]

Where's Ausglock when you need him? I think he has done what you are talking about.

Slide
Ausglock seems to have reduced his input some, and I noticed his absence more and more.

[Stephen Cohen]

Avenger442, your findings are much the same as mine, I have not done much with cast under .357 and I do find a gas check is not needed on even my 357mag and maximum rifle loads with velocity to 2,400fps in max with 158gr lee. I had a Lyman 156gr mould which I did remove the gas check ring from after finding there was no need for a check for my use, of cause that 156gr mould now drops a nice 172gr cast which also shoots well as a plain base. I have a Lee plain base 240gr plain base in 375 and an RCBS 150gr gas check both shoot well in my 375 Whelen at around 1,800fps, yet I do get a little leading in last couple inches of barrel with the RCBS without gas check, I think the fast 1/12 twist and the powder I used may account for some of that and further testing is needed. The only rifle I do use gas checks in is my 458wm and it just plain shoot better with them like 1 1/4''groups at 100mtres are the largest it has produced. I have a 320gr plain base CBE mould for the 460SW and accuracy is outstanding with no leading at all, I have also removed the gas check ring from an RCBS 230gr .452 RN mould for the 460SW with same results. When I get back to testing 30 calibre I will be using my Omark44 as its accuracy is known. I also coat my rifle cast 3 times and have found as you did that Hi-Tek gives the best from all barrels it is fired in. PS as for removing gas check rings I used a Dremel tool and it is something you don't want to rush. Regards Stephen

[M.A.D]

Slide
Ausglock seems to have reduced his input some, and I noticed his absence more and more.

Probably been training for all the IPSC comps over the last few months...

[Ausglock]

Probably been training for all the IPSC comps over the last few months...

G'day Stranger..

I feel my work (guidance) here is done.
Everyone is coating fine with no issues.
Even Joe has not send any new samples to try. I have just been producing Green Goodness for IPSC'ers in OZ.
M.A.D. Will give you a cooee.
Looking for some mixed range brass if possible..........

[Burnt Fingers]

These pencils go up to 5 to 28 bhn. You have to sharpen them a certain way. We'll give it a go!

There's no reason to sharpen them any specific way. I've done all kinds of points on them. Either they dig into the lead or they don't.

BTW, I think Donnie is keeping all that blue Hi-Tek for himself. I've been waiting for it to show up on the site for sale.

[slide]

Okay Joe, Here is what I think I found out. The set has 12 pencils in it. The hardest is a 4H. Now 2H has a value of 26-28 BHN. 4H is harder than 2H. 2H would draw a line on a bullet. 4H made a perfect little furrow with lead showing underneath. So a 4H pencil is a little harder than the coating. We are going to have to guess what bhn we are at. i found no charts that went up to 4H on the bhn scale. I am going to guess 30 to 40 bhn. I will leave the final word up to you. You know more about this stuff than I do.

[HI-TEK]

Okay Joe, Here is what I think I found out. The set has 12 pencils in it. The hardest is a 4H. Now 2H has a value of 26-28 BHN. 4H is harder than 2H. 2H would draw a line on a bullet. 4H made a perfect little furrow with lead showing underneath. So a 4H pencil is a little harder than the coating. We are going to have to guess what bhn we are at. i found no charts that went up to 4H on the bhn scale. I am going to guess 30 to 40 bhn. I will leave the final word up to you. You know more about this stuff than I do.

Hello Slide,
Just checking, was this test on coating that was on a cast alloy?
If so how many coats?

[slide]

This was a bullet cast with wheelweights plus a little tin. It was two coats of candy apple red.

[HI-TEK]

This was a bullet cast with wheelweights plus a little tin. It was two coats of candy apple red.

Thanks Slide.
I suspect, that what your pencil hardness indicated, is a composite indication of coating and alloy it was coated upon.
We know, that thin coats "move" with smash test. So what my thought is, that when you pressed with the hard Pencil, you in fact indented the alloy, and coating moved and allowed indentation. I suspect that the test results indicated a "composite" hardness result.
To get the coating Pencil hardness of the actual coating, you may have to make a piece of flat baked coating, (or pre-cast coating baked) or on a surface such as Stainless Steel or something that is very hard and wont yield like Lead alloy.
As I had suggested, a level piece of baked coating say 1/4 inch thick, supported on a hard surface, even like a ceramic white tile, and after baking and cooling, you can do your pencil hardness on the actual coating. What ever indentation you achieve, should directly be as a result of the coating hardness, as the supporting base will not allow indentation that will compromise test..
Any thoughts????

[slide]

I see what you are getting at. I think I have some small pieces of stainless,maybe? Are you talking about brushing on the hi-tek? Joe, is this going to benefit anything other than just knowing? I realize it was my idea and question.

[HI-TEK]

I see what you are getting at. Are you talking about brushing on the hi-tek? Joe, is this going to benefit anything other than just knowing? I realize it was my idea and question.

Slide
Thinking about my previous post, a Ceramic White tile would be much better as a base.
It will take the heat, and afterwards you can see the indentations with your pencil.
If you simply spoon on some powder, (teaspoon into a small hill) and roughly level it, during bake it should flow out and form a reasonably level surface and area for testing will be reasonably large to get a clear picture of hardness tests. Depending on your tile size, you can possibly put more powder around in various spots. That way you get multiple test areas.
No one has done hardness test on Hi-Tek previously, and with your question, is another area that has been explored.
If you do get a hardness, that result can be directly compared with all other coatings, jackets etc.
These results can then demonstrate, confirm or reject the so called "equivalency" claims being suggested by other manufacturers using other coating systems.

[slide]

Good deal, as long as it can be put to use!

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, your post 12842 above is what I meant when I said Hi-Tek being such a contradicting product to measure BHN on but you explain it much better. Slide don't give up now, regardless of what, if any, use it will be to casters it would be nice to know. I believe the idea Joe has put forward about a tile may well be the way to go. I have done some Google time and have not found a BHN for 4H pencil yet I did find several conflicting articles on the use of pencils, as it would seem that all pencils are not created equal, in regard to hardness and the number they carry. I found one article that stated 2H was 28BHN and each consecutive number was some 1 to 1.3/4 higher than the previous number. I guess you can see that any result you get will only be conclusive with that brand of pencil it would seem. I still think that the very nature of Hi-Tek will make it difficult to measure BHN and even if one does get a good result, I feel that the way Hi-tek reacts to pressure stress and heat may well put it in its own class in regard to BHN as we see it. I for one hope you don't give up just yet as I think Joe's idea may well be as close as we will get, till he comes up with another idea. I should mention one article showed the pencil having a flat blunt end and was being used as a chisel to mark the material, which may be the way to go with Hi-tek. Don't be discouraged your in territory that no other has ventured into. Sounds a bit like an episode of Star Trek. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

it's gotta be hard. All my bullets make a ceramic "chink" sound post baking...

[slide]

Okay Joe, I made a mistake. That bullet with what I thought was lead under the furrow was graphite. It was one of the first I did and I did not want to report success if there wasn't. I have been playing around with the pencils yesterday afternoon,last night, and this morning. I can say with confidence that my findings are correct. If the pencil is softer than the coating it will just mark on it like you were drawing on a piece of paper. If the pencil is harder than the coating it will leave a tiny scratch it. I had a lady friend over last night and had her fish out some ingots without me knowing what they are. They were different bhn's. Verifying with my hardness tester I was 100%. It is noon here and I am about to start your suggestion. I didn't have any tile. The hardware store wouldn't sell me just one even though I saw some loose ones. I do have some blank panels. My buddy that owns a powder coating business gave them to me. It is what they use to test powder coats. You probably know what I am talking about. They measure 2"x 3 1/2 ". I don't know the bhn on them but you can't scratch them with the 4H pencil. Stand by! sitrep coming!

[slide]

Report #2. Put a little candy apple red powder on a blank panel. Spread it out and leveled as best I could. The thickness of the blank panel was 0.04,the thickness of the coating was around 0.12. Baked the panel for 20 minutes with temp around 390F. There was still some brittleness like we saw on the first try. Pencils tips dug in and didn't slide like on a coated bullet. So, I loaded up my pencils,some coated bullets and whatever else I thought I might need and headed to IFS coatings which is just a few miles away. Was able to see the quaility control guy. Explained and showed him what we were trying to do. He watched me do a test with the pencils and them showed me under some high powered microscope that I hadn't removed all of the coating. He said they use the pencils sometimes and consider it a viable test. I am going to still guess that the bhn of hi-tek is 30 to 40 bhn. The only problem is he told me that he wouldn't be able to help me anymore since I was not an account holder or even using their product. I understand. He has a job to do and messing with some bullet caster-coater ain't part of it. He has been awful nice. Don't want him to get in trouble.

[Tazza]

It was nice of him to give you his time to help out, even though you were not a customer and was polite to tell you he can't help in future and not simply telling you to bugger off when you popped your nose in :) That still shows good customer service

[HI-TEK]

Report #2. Put a little candy apple red powder on a blank panel. Spread it out and leveled as best I could. The thickness of the blank panel was 0.04,the thickness of the coating was around 0.12. Baked the panel for 20 minutes with temp around 390F. There was still some brittleness like we saw on the first try. Pencils tips dug in and didn't slide like on a coated bullet. So, I loaded up my pencils,some coated bullets and whatever else I thought I might need and headed to IFS coatings which is just a few miles away. Was able to see the quaility control guy. Explained and showed him what we were trying to do. He watched me do a test with the pencils and them showed me under some high powered microscope that I hadn't removed all of the coating. He said they use the pencils sometimes and consider it a viable test. I am going to still guess that the bhn of hi-tek is 30 to 40 bhn. The only problem is he told me that he wouldn't be able to help me anymore since I was not an account holder or even using their product. I understand. He has a job to do and messing with some bullet caster-coater ain't part of it. He has been awful nice. Don't want him to get in trouble.

Slide,
You certainly gave it a go. Thank you much for your efforts.
Knowing the various polymer systems around, and my Hi-Tek, and, I can, with some certainty say, that there is no other stuff around that compares.
My suggestion was that Hi-Tek was about 35-40 BHN and results are directly dependent on how the stuff is treated.

[slide]

You are welcome Joe! If I can help in any other way let me know. I wish you could have seen this microscope. Amazing. You ask me what that pencil gizmo was. It is called a portable pencil coating hardness tester. It comes in a kit with weights,pencils, and some other stuff. About a $100.00 US on ebay.

[HI-TEK]

You are welcome Joe! If I can help in any other way let me know. I wish you could have seen this microscope. Amazing. You ask me what that pencil gizmo was. It is called a portable pencil coating hardness tester. It comes in a kit with weights,pencils, and some other stuff. About a $100.00 US on ebay.

HI Slide,
I have two microscopes one is for magnifying up to 5000 times, with various light sources to enhance from the top, what I am looking at, and the other is one that actually has lights below and shines through a film, so I can look through a film.
Portable pencil hardness tester are basic equipment and is just above a manual Pencil hardness testing, as the machine can improve reproducibility over manual system
Shore Hardness tester are much more accurate and more expensive.
I am glad that the tech guy was able to spend time with you. But if you think about things, he is a Powder coating guru, and will protect that business.
I thought, that he may have been curious enough to do some tests with his machine whilst he had a chance. I know I would have..... but that is me.....

[Petander]

These 4 BHN pure lead bullets were recovered from a pine tree trunk.

Fired from a 38 Special @ 800 fps, a 4 BHN alloy is too soft but Hi Tek coating is still protecting pretty good. I have fired dozens of these 1000+ fps in a 357 snubby and cleaning wasn't a big deal at all. Soft lead will deform some of course.

https://i.postimg.cc/zvJ47Fmt/IMG-20200123-115041-484.jpg

[Stephen Cohen]

Petander, it would be interesting to know if the Hi-Tek coating retarded expansion to any degree, as the picture shows the coating certainly has remained in place. I would imagine a naked pure lead bullet at that velocity would lead barrel badly, not so with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Just wanted to show what happens with extra long over baked coating. This is typical with colour change, but coating seems to work Just fine255407

[HI-TEK]

Petander, it would be interesting to know if the Hi-Tek coating retarded expansion to any degree, as the picture shows the coating certainly has remained in place. I would imagine a naked pure lead bullet at that velocity would lead barrel badly, not so with Hi-Tek. Regards Stephen

Stephen
If you consider the expansion/deformation of alloys, the final effect is that the metal is pushed very hard against the bore, which is then becomes sealed. HI-TEK simply "moves" with Lead expansion, and is a separation layer/film between bore and Lead. Result is, if coatings are done correctly, that even softer alloys should work. The effectiveness of using soft Lead greatly is dependent on correct sizing.
Sizing has to be done, so there is a tight initial fit in the bore, so that possibility of gas cutting is minimised before final expansion of Lead that results in tightly sealing the bore.
Then, being separated from bore with the Hi-Tek film, the coated soft Lead obtaining maximum and uniform conformity with shape, for best aerodynamics and performance, then simply travels without leaving deposits.
When that soft cast leaves the bore, there is no more expansion or deformation taking place, and the projectile should hit its mark as required.
As I have suggested many times previously, the Hi-Tek is not a cure for wrongly prepared casts. It has to be remembered, that the coating is a bonded dry film lubricant, not Jacketing.

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, I agree with all you say, I just would have expected a bit more expansion from pure lead at that velocity. I realise that the range they were shot at and the hardness of the tree would also impact on results. I have a feeling that Hi-Tek does hold a cast bullet together to some degree at impact, a couple years back I was shooting steel with my brothers 460SW and it seemed the Hi-Tek coated cast actually gave a much better knock down than just plain Lube cast. I did not have a large supply of the plain Lube cast to test my theory at the time as it was an accuracy test between the plain and Hi-Tek cast. It is a test I will take up again when I get back up north where he is. I have a Young lad using some of my 320gr Hi-Tek coated cast in his 460SW for Sillywets and he swears by there knock down power, mind the 460SW is a power house in any loading. I understand when a cast comes in contact with steel a great deal of heat is generated which also has an impact on the splatter we get, perhaps the Hi-Tek coating slows the heat transfer to the lead alloy long enough to allow the bullet more impact on target. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I agree with all you say, I just would have expected a bit more expansion from pure lead at that velocity. I realise that the range they were shot at and the hardness of the tree would also impact on results. I have a feeling that Hi-Tek does hold a cast bullet together to some degree at impact, a couple years back I was shooting steel with my brothers 460SW and it seemed the Hi-Tek coated cast actually gave a much better knock down than just plain Lube cast. I did not have a large supply of the plain Lube cast to test my theory at the time as it was an accuracy test between the plain and Hi-Tek cast. It is a test I will take up again when I get back up north where he is. I have a Young lad using some of my 320gr Hi-Tek coated cast in his 460SW for Sillywets and he swears by there knock down power, mind the 460SW is a power house in any loading. I understand when a cast comes in contact with steel a great deal of heat is generated which also has an impact on the splatter we get, perhaps the Hi-Tek coating slows the heat transfer to the lead alloy long enough to allow the bullet more impact on target. Regards Stephen

Stephen,
Now that you mention it, with impact and HI-TEK, you may have something that can be observed. Many years ago, when the coating was first introduced, a guy used it for hunting in a rifle ammo. Two things he noticed,
1. He shot into end grain of a hardwood post with greased and coated casts. He noticed that the greased cast left an indentation on end grain and splattered. The coated cast, penetrated into the end grain and was buried in the hardwood.
2. Second thing he noticed, that when shooting wild Pigs, the greased cast did not penetrate near front shoulder bone plate and he had to shoot twice to stop the Pig.
The coated cast, went straight though same area, and the pig just dropped.
At that time, I had no idea about those effects the coating had provided, as main concern was around stopping Lead fouling, getting rid of the greasy smelly lubes, lowering of smoke and increased accuracy and reducing Lead contact/exposure to shooters. Re-loaders also were very happy as loading gear was kept clean.
All the other things that happened after coatings became in demand, were all a learning curve for all users including me, and this learning has continued over the years.
As you know, here rifle ammo is very small in use as compared with handguns.
Also, I had no direct contact with any shooters, as commercial casters were supplied with coatings exclusively. None had never fed back any data from shooters.
Most users of coated cast, did not realise nor were advised as to who manufactured the coatings.
With heat transfer reduction by the coatings, is now clearly identified and demonstrated.

[Petander]

My pine trunk test was completely unscientific and does not represent average expansion. I just picked up some random bullets from the trunk that had become like sawdust.

Here are three 460 grain 458 bullets,fired into a steel bullet trap @ 1700 fps.

https://i.postimg.cc/4d9Btp4L/IMG-20200126-114303-426.jpg

[dansedgli]

The wife and child have been away for 2 weeks so I've put together 87kgs of 40 cal projectiles.

Doing trublu 160s for 357 sig next. Looking forward to trying it out.

[Stephen Cohen]

The wife and child have been away for 2 weeks so I've put together 87kgs of 40 cal projectiles.

Doing trublu 160s for 357 sig next. Looking forward to trying it out.

Well done, I hope you remember to clean your dishes, put the toilet seat down and put your dirty clothing in wash basket, you know how women are about those things. Regards Stephen

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, it would seem we have all learned a great deal over the years. I use cast in all calibres above .30 and have to admit I find cast as good or better than Jacketed for all my shooting, in the case of hunting bullets Hi-Tek gives one the ability to use a softer alloy at a good velocity, I prefer softer alloy as I don't like to get overpenetration in most areas I hunt, I like the bullet to expend its energy in the game I hunt. I have to admit that its a 50 50 bet as to getting complete pass through on most game I hunt, given the loads I use. My next project is to build a 300WM with 1/12 twist as I have the barrel and I think it will be cast friendly. I will stand by my belief that Hi-Tek gives us versatility that wax lube did not. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Joe, it would seem we have all learned a great deal over the years. I use cast in all calibres above .30 and have to admit I find cast as good or better than Jacketed for all my shooting, in the case of hunting bullets Hi-Tek gives one the ability to use a softer alloy at a good velocity, I prefer softer alloy as I don't like to get overpenetration in most areas I hunt, I like the bullet to expend its energy in the game I hunt. I have to admit that its a 50 50 bet as to getting complete pass through on most game I hunt, given the loads I use. My next project is to build a 300WM with 1/12 twist as I have the barrel and I think it will be cast friendly. I will stand by my belief that Hi-Tek gives us versatility that wax lube did not. Regards Stephen

I'll be very interested in how you go with using cast for 300wm, i have mad mates that are using theirs for new comps at our range, cast would surely help cut the costs down. I cast some 230 gr gas checked ones, not sure if they have tested them in their 300wm yet, but they failed to work in the .300 black out, as they couldn't be crimped properly due to being so long and there was no where to crimp them so they would fit the chamber. I'll need to find something around the 170 grain mark, if our research is to be believed.

I see no reason why it wouldn't work, especially if kept sub sonic, yet i have run coated wheel weights in my STI open gun with no leading, they were doing 1,400 fps last time i checked, may need to bump the load up a bit more and re-test it.

[Petander]

The wife and child have been away for 2 weeks so I've put together 87kgs of 40 cal projectiles.

Doing trublu 160s for 357 sig next. Looking forward to trying it out.

Wow great!

[Petander]

More pure lead expansion:

https://i.postimg.cc/XY0LhG2C/IMG-20200126-150055-308.jpg

[Elkins45]

Does anyone increase the baking time a little bit if your bullets are cold? I’m doing a batch of 500 grain 458 bullets and letting them dry outside where it’s pretty close to freezing. I’m thinking about adding a couple of minutes to compensate for such big cold bullets.

[slide]

Elkins45, Joe should be along. He will answer your questions. Hang in there!

[slide]

Forgot today is Sunday. To answer your question I don't dry bullets outside unless it is spring or summer time. If you go straight to the oven you may run into condensation and if that gets under your coating it won't set. I can tell you what I do,maybe it will help you. Room temp is around 70 F where I do this. There is an exhaust system. After coating the bullets are poured onto a wire mesh tray and left in front of a fan for about ten minutes. then they go to the top of my oven until they heat up to around 120 F. Placed in the oven. When bullets reach 360 F I start a countdown timer from four minutes. Is there any way you can dry your bullets inside? Extra time won't hurt but it can turn your coating darker.

[Ausglock]

Does anyone increase the baking time a little bit if your bullets are cold? I’m doing a batch of 500 grain 458 bullets and letting them dry outside where it’s pretty close to freezing. I’m thinking about adding a couple of minutes to compensate for such big cold bullets.

You can, But why not pre-warm the next tray of bullets to enter the oven by standing the tray on top of the oven? It is free heat to warm them first. Or use a fan heater like I do..

[Ausglock]

The wife and child have been away for 2 weeks so I've put together 87kgs of 40 cal projectiles.

Doing trublu 160s for 357 sig next. Looking forward to trying it out.

Nice... You shooting 40 in Classic Div? 180gn?
Re: TruBlu. make sure you drop the temp on your oven to 190 -192Deg C

[Stephen Cohen]

Does anyone increase the baking time a little bit if your bullets are cold? I’m doing a batch of 500 grain 458 bullets and letting them dry outside where it’s pretty close to freezing. I’m thinking about adding a couple of minutes to compensate for such big cold bullets.

Slide is right in what he said, however I do prefer to let my coated cast dry overnight if it is cold. I have found with larger cast including the 500gr that force drying in front of a fan does seem to trap moisture under coating, which turns to steam when baking and one gets small burst bubbles on the surface of baked cast. I like the cast to be a little warm, not cold to the touch when coating them in cooler weather. If the coating is properly dry and you do get some burst bubbles after baking it only affects the look not the performance. I always warm my coated cast on top of oven as slide suggested, but only after they are dry. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Does anyone increase the baking time a little bit if your bullets are cold? I’m doing a batch of 500 grain 458 bullets and letting them dry outside where it’s pretty close to freezing. I’m thinking about adding a couple of minutes to compensate for such big cold bullets.

Elkins 45
Great question.
I will try to answer step by step.
1. If projectiles are already cold when you are coating, they will get even colder due to evaporation of solvent. Ideal situation is, that your projectiles are about 8-10 degrees above ambient temperatures. Reason..... when coating cast, solvent evaporation can chill alloy by another 5C. So if they are already cold when you start, you are making them even colder.
2. The chilling of cast by solvent evaporation, attracts a lot of moisture which can be trapped inside the coating. As coating dries, it forms a skin, which traps moisture.
The skin feels dry, but it is misleading. The instant you put this into an oven, the rise in temperature of coating/alloy, turns the trapped water into super heated steam.
This steam cannot get out and is forced towards the colder area, (alloy). This then lifts coating off the alloy. Heat will cure the coating, but it wont be bonded to alloy adequately. Tell tale signs are, that baked coating has fine blisters after baking and can be easily scratched from alloy.. If this happens the tests on coating will fail.
3. Having warmer cast to coat is preferable. Warm air drying is very useful, especially in cold damp conditions.
4. Test bake only a couple first when you think you have dried it enough.
If it passes all tests, all good. But if tests fail, keep warm air drying.
Re-Test again only with a couple.
Repeat tests with a couple until you get a pass with tests. (keep warm air drying until you get a pass with tests)
With your question, baking a cold coated cast longer, will not "fix" the problem but will in fact cause more problems.

Hope I have answered your question.

[dikman]

Elkins, I did some once when it was cold and wet (normal Winter where I live) so I warmed up my oven (not hot) and ran them through there first to make sure they were dried properly before baking. Worked for me. I reckon one of those food dehydrator thingy's would work well for drying coated boolits.

[Elkins45]

The dehydrator idea is a good one, but I might just make myself a curing box to coat in cold weather. Build racks for all my trays with hot air forced in from the bottom or maybe a heat lamp bulb.

I ended up setting my trays on the tailgate of my truck in the sun. They dried completely and baked with no flaking.

[dikman]

The curing box is a good idea.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Elkins45;4814445]The dehydrator idea is a good one, but I might just make myself a curing box to coat in cold weather. Build racks for all my trays with hot air forced in from the bottom or maybe a heat lamp bulb.

Elkins45
I would not use a closed in drying system. I am concerned about solvent vapour build up and fire resulting.
A ventilated drying box of sort, with Infra Red heating lamp would work well as it would warm bullets much more gently and evenly. If you have a tray with multi layers, you would have to turn over/move around projectiles to ensure all were heated/warmed evenly. Then simply monitor load temperatures with IR thermometer. After testing a couple by baking, and if it passes tests, simply bake that load that is now pre-heated. Monitor load in oven for the temperature, and, when load gets to 180C, leave it in oven to bake for another 2 minutes. That is it. Simple.

[Burnt Fingers]

When will the blue be available in the states?

[kevin c]

In December Donnie Miculek posted here that his shipment was in transit, but in a slow boat from Down Under.

It's like waiting on a group buy mold. The anticipation is half the fun.

Elkins45, I posted in another thread that I did exactly what you asked about. Using casts previously coated and dried but stored and then baked in cold conditions, I ended up with baking times of 14 minutes at confirmed convection oven air temps of 420 degrees F. Winter boolits came out with the right color. Summer boolits baked with the same protocol were darker, though not quite scorched (and still passed all tests and shot fine without leading). Now I know better.

[Elkins45]

[QUOTE=Elkins45;4814445]The dehydrator idea is a good one, but I might just make myself a curing box to coat in cold weather. Build racks for all my trays with hot air forced in from the bottom or maybe a heat lamp bulb.

Elkins45
I would not use a closed in drying system. I am concerned about solvent vapour build up and fire resulting.
A ventilated drying box of sort, with Infra Red heating lamp would work well as it would warm bullets much more gently and evenly. If you have a tray with multi layers, you would have to turn over/move around projectiles to ensure all were heated/warmed evenly. Then simply monitor load temperatures with IR thermometer. After testing a couple by baking, and if it passes tests, simply bake that load that is now pre-heated. Monitor load in oven for the temperature, and, when load gets to 180C, leave it in oven to bake for another 2 minutes. That is it. Simple.

Vented at the top, air forced in from the bottom. The box is just there to direct airflow and minimize heat loss. Like a film drying cabinet back when people used to develop film. Except for needing to support the trays it could almost be made of cardboard.

[HI-TEK]

When will the blue be available in the states?

Burnt Fingers
The shipment is already in the US. The delays is at port, with delays with Customs clearing.
Last time I checked about 6-8 days ago, Donnie was waiting on delivery and was estimating 8-10 days. So TRUBLU is not that far away from being available.
Please keep in touch with Donnie to get updates.

[kevin c]

That's good to hear. Thanks for the update!

[Burnt Fingers]

Thanks!

[slide]

Joe, is the tru blue a metallic?

[Ausglock]

Joe, is the tru blue a metallic?

No......

[mozee]

You can, But why not pre-warm the next tray of bullets to enter the oven by standing the tray on top of the oven? It is free heat to warm them first. Or use a fan heater like I do..

Ausglock, can I use this method to dry my coating? That is lay them on top of the oven? If so what kind of time should I be looking out for?

With your fan heater, how many trays are you drying at a time? Do you just lay them in front of the fan? If so, for how long?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ausglock]

Ausglock, can I use this method to dry my coating? That is lay them on top of the oven? If so what kind of time should I be looking out for?

With your fan heater, how many trays are you drying at a time? Do you just lay them in front of the fan? If so, for how long?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep... just place on top of the oven on spacers.
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

This is my fan heater blowing warm air down onto 2 trays at a time.
As the top 2 trays go into the oven, the next lot of trays move up a shelf.
easy. The drying rack is an old Smiths Chips display stand.
https://i.imgur.com/IvIa8wB.jpg

[Petander]

Really nice trays,how,where?

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Ausglock;4816451]Yep... just place on top of the oven on spacers.
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

I love the knobbly knee and shorts look.

After seeing his reflection on oven door, my eyes must be playing up as I can see 3 different Green colours.....

[Tazza]

[QUOTE=Ausglock;4816451]Yep... just place on top of the oven on spacers.
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

I love the knobbly knee and shorts look.

After seeing his reflection on oven door, my eyes must be playing up as I can see 3 different Green colours.....

That's just retina damage from seeing his legs in shorts :P

[Ausglock]

I'm gunna send the drop bears to visit you pair of clowns.

The baking trays are Stainless steel perforated plate. 12"x12" with a 10mm double bend on the edges.
The coating/drying trays are black steel perforated plate of the same dimensions.
The stainless is best for baking. I do not bake on coating trays or coat on baking trays. helps to keep everything orderly.
The different greens are camera/light/angle issues.

As for the legs... If you have it, flaunt it.....yeah baby...

[Tazza]

I'm gunna send the drop bears to visit you pair of clowns.

The baking trays are Stainless steel perforated plate. 12"x12" with a 10mm double bend on the edges.
The coating/drying trays are black steel perforated plate of the same dimensions.
The stainless is best for baking. I do not bake on coating trays or coat on baking trays. helps to keep everything orderly.
The different greens are camera/light/angle issues.

As for the legs... If you have it, flaunt it.....yeah baby...

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/images/photos/animals/graphics/dropbearcub3.jpg

As for the legs, please don't, think of the children! :)

[Petander]

I did some water hardening tests some time ago to use more pure range lead and less precious WW or lino.

The bullets got two normal coats,then I sized them and coated one more time. I let them cool,then another day I baked them for an hour and water quenched. 50WW/50 Pure becomes about 14 BHN.

Now that I got a new trap it's easy to observe what's going on. It's all steel so these 357 bullets have had it pretty hard. But I like what I see.

https://i.postimg.cc/8cJK3S31/IMG-20200130-144127-272.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/652vg3Qs/IMG-20200130-145530-664.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/SKrdRs8T/IMG-20200130-145949-756.jpg

[Stephen Cohen]

Petander, I think you pictures pretty much show how Hi-Tek holds the cast together on impact. I also had good luck with range scrap but I knew where the sillywets shot all those Linotype cast into the berm. Oh nice little snub. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Stephen Cohen;4818433]

Stephen
sent you a PM

[mozee]

Hi-tek

Sent you a PM [emoji4]

[HI-TEK]

Hi-tek

Sent you a PM [emoji4]

mozee
I sent you a reply. Await your reply....

[Ausglock]

Get a room.....lol

[dansedgli]

Got my trublu today thankyou very much. :)

Some bullets are drying right now.

[Ausglock]

Got my trublu today thankyou very much. :)

Some bullets are drying right now.
Woohoo...

just watch the temp. You will be fine.

[dansedgli]

Woohoo...

just watch the temp. You will be fine.

I've got a pid, seems to be little difference between 190 and 180 degrees. I was baking zombie green at 190 and getting some hot spots so tried lowering it for trublu.

They are good enough for me. :grin:

255990255991

[HI-TEK]

I've got a pid, seems to be little difference between 190 and 180 degrees. They are good enough for me though. :grin:

255990255991

They look over baked, Some even look blackish.
I don't know if it is lighting or not.
I suspect that they were far higher than 190C and for prolong period.
Coated projectiles need to get to 180C and, afterwards stay there for another 2 minutes. If your oven is PID controlled it really does not explain the range of colours you achieved with the baked coatings. (Is your oven fan forced?)
Ausglock had these stay blue when they left oven, and load was 195C after baking.

[dansedgli]

Yep its fan forced. Would baking for too long at 180 make them darker too?

I've been doing 11 minutes but ill try less time tomorrow or Wednesday.

My zombie greens have always been a little brown at 190 for 11 minutes but I havent really spent any time fine tuning the colours. They work fine and they are just for me.

255992

[HI-TEK]

Yep its fan forced. Would baking for too long at 180 make them darker too?

I've been doing 11 minutes but ill try less time tomorrow or Wednesday.

My zombie greens have always been a little brown at 190 for 11 minutes but I havent really spent any time fine tuning the colours. They work fine and they are just for me.

255992

dansedgli
I suspect that your load after 11 minutes is higher in temperature than you think.
That is why your colours are getting a Tan appearance.
Do you have an IR temperature gun? It would be very useful to know what is actual temperature of load when removing it from oven. I suspect 11 minutes is much too long, especially if radiant heat may also play a contributing role.
The variation of colour in same tray is telling me that you have not gotten even temperatures inside your oven. If Heating element can radiate heat, the load at specific areas can get much higher than set temperatures. That is why possibly you are getting Tanning to some and not all.

[dansedgli]

I'll buy an ir thermometer tomorrow and do a test with a temp probe in a bullet on the weekend if I get time.

I am keen to get the colour right on this one.

Thanks again for your help.

[Burnt Fingers]

You guys are killing me with the Tru Blue.

Still waiting for it here in the States.

[Ausglock]

Dan.
do you take the tray out at the 1/2 time point and turn it 180 deg and re-insert it?
helps with removing hot spot colour.
Drop back to 10 mins.

[dansedgli]

I dont do that, Ill give it a try at lunch though. Ive got 6 more trays left to coat but plan on casting more over the next few weeks.

[mozee]

get a room.....lol

lol - :)

[Petander]

200 grainer 38's, 260 44's and 12 gauge RB:s. All good.

https://i.postimg.cc/DZx4fDSG/IMG-20200205-201717-932.jpg

[kevin c]

Thanks for the update, Donnie!

Say, Petander. I'm going to set up a bullet thermocouple like yours. Is there any difference in using a metal rod versus bead type probe? I was wondering if the rod sticking out of the bullet would throw off the temp reading.

[Petander]

Thanks for the update, Donnie!

Say, Petander. I'm going to set up a bullet thermocouple like yours. Is there any difference in using a metal rod versus bead type probe? I was wondering if the rod sticking out of the bullet would throw off the temp reading.

I have only used a metal probe,it's the tip that takes reading. My bullets are cast to the tip.

When this probe reads 160°C my bullet surface is already 175-180°C. I let my probe meter start "beep" @ 180°C, at that point I only bake one more minute and my end surface temp is 190°C. I have a standard 8 min bake for 6-8 lbs loads,oven @ 185°C. Repeatable without watching the meters any more.

It's easy to confirm surface temps with an IR meter. Then, after a few test bakes, you can relate your probe readings to the actual bullet surface temp.

There are many ways to bake. I like to measure when in doubt.

https://i.postimg.cc/VLKgHfmq/IMG-20200205-211516-525.jpg

[slide]

kevin c You can order a digital thermometer with a thermocouple off of amazon for under twenty bucks. The thermocouple has a shield on it. There is only about 1/8" exposed which goes in the base of the bullet. It will be the best twenty bucks you have ever spent. Way too may guys are guessing what their bullet temp is.

[kevin c]

Thanks guys!

[dansedgli]

This color is nice. 10 minutes instead of 11.

256137

[Ausglock]

This color is nice. 10 minutes instead of 11.

256137

Great result...

[HI-TEK]

This color is nice. 10 minutes instead of 11.

256137

Great result. Well done. Product looks very professional finish.

[Jhopson]

This color is nice. 10 minutes instead of 11.

256137

Those are some good looking bullets!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kevin c]

Say, slide.

That data you graphed out, comparing the heating of a bare cast to a coated cast, was that with a regular color or one of the metallics? I'd guess the heating curves would be different with versus without the extra heat reflective properties of the metallic coatings.

[Burnt Fingers]

Tru Blue is now available here in the US. I noticed it on the site today. I've already got mine ordered!

[Petander]

It's TMG o' clock.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZqJLXVH1/IMG-20200206-225759-835.jpg

[slide]

kevin c If I remember right it was the kyrptonite green. Joe did the graph. I just watched the temps and wrote them down. Differences? Joe will have to answer that one for you.

[HI-TEK]

Say, slide.

That data you graphed out, comparing the heating of a bare cast to a coated cast, was that with a regular color or one of the metallics? I'd guess the heating curves would be different with versus without the extra heat reflective properties of the metallic coatings.

kevinC
Interesting question. The test was done with a metallic. The coating thickness would have been about 1 thou.
All the coatings contain materials that would produce very similar heat reflecting property.
With non metallic, I doubt that it would alter heat curve temperature differentiation by more than a couple of degrees. The polymer itself is already a very poor conductor of heat. The inclusion of other materials does improve heat reflecting property.

[Elkins45]

I know the instructions for the powder say you can add alcohol instead of acetone or MEK to slow evaporation, but what about mineral spirits? Is the powder soluble in mineral spirits or would that just make a mess? Even with alcohol added it still dries a little too fast for me. I would like to slow down the evaporation time just a bit more so I swirl longer and can get a more even first coat.

[HI-TEK]

I know the instructions for the powder say you can add alcohol instead of acetone or MEK to slow evaporation, but what about mineral spirits? Is the powder soluble in mineral spirits or would that just make a mess? Even with alcohol added it still dries a little too fast for me. I would like to slow down the evaporation time just a bit more so I swirl longer and can get a more even first coat.

Elkins 45
Adding about 10% denatured alcohol to the Acetone should be adequate to slow down coating drying during shake coating.
MEK with about 10% denatured Alcohol would be much slower drying.
Alternatively, simply add a little more solvent only, and that will allow longer shake coat times and spread coating more.
(I hope you are not trying to do one thick coat as a first coat, as it will cause other problems)
First thin coat is generally not a great look normally. That is why a second coat is applied to cover imperfections and obtain a more even film..
Please don't use any hydrocarbon solvent as it wont work.
I have had reports of someone trying Iso-Propanol and reported that it worked. This solvent is much slower drying, and in theory is compatible with the coatings , but I have never tested it.

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I am working with Donnie on the isopropyl alcohol. We should be able to give a report in a couple of weeks. It indeed slows down the drying. I tried the 91%. The bullets passed the smash and swipe test. Donnie will be doing the range testing as soon as I get the ammo to him. This will be with the 223 remington which is a bugger bear to shoot cast in. We will let everybody what we find out.

Hello Slide,
Thanks for update.
I was not aware that you and Donnie were collaborating with tests, using Iso-Propanol as a solvent. It will be most interesting to find out if all is OK afterwards.
As I said, I have never tried it, and in theory, it should work. Most commercial casters wanted fast drying speeds, not slower.
Down side of faster drying Acetone and MEK is that solvent evaporation chills cast alloys up to 5C, and colder coated cast will attract and trap moisture. That is why great attention needs to be taken to ensure adequate drying to remove trapped moisture.

It would be interesting (if IPA works) just how much chilling is produced by IPA drying from coated projectiles.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=slide;4823133]I sent you a pm but it was back in December I think. You gave me the go ahead but I don't remember if I advised you when Donnie and I joined forces. If I didn't I apologize. No need for any apology.

I was worried about using the 91% because it is 9% water. I saw no signs of trapped moisture.

Slide, I don't understand "using the 91% because it contains 9% Water".

Are you saying that the IPA you are using is 91% IPA and contains 9% Water?
Industrial IPA should be 99.9% pure or higher.
What is commercial price for Acetone versus IPA in the USA?
They are fairly similar priced here.

[Stephen Cohen]

Slide,I also will be interested in the results of that test, I gave away the thought of using Iso propanol because I understood it to contain water as well. Just when you think all tests have been carried out, along comes another I wonder what if test. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

This is 91% isopropyl alcohol. You can buy it off the shelf in any drugstore. It is used for as first aid antiseptic. It was Christmas day,I was by myself,bored out of my mind and decided to coat some bullets. Found out I was out of MEK or acetone,or denatured alcohol. All I had was the 91% so I decide try it. It worked surprising well. The cost of this stuff is around $2.00 US per 32 ounces. The bullets passed the tests and since I couldn't shoot myself I contacted Donnie to see if he might know someone who would be interested in shooting the bullets and he volunteered.

Slide,
We have similar IPS skin disinfectant but is a very soft Gel in a dispenser.
I cant recall seeing any where IPA solvent/disinfectant being sold.
The 91% would be regarded here as dangerous goods, and retailers, unless they had flammable goods storage would not stock it.

Some years ago, there was an automotive fuel additive sold in car accessory outlets (no longer sold). They had 600ml bottles to add to a tankful of Petrol/gasoline for carburetted vehicles.
It was promoted as Octane booster. It certainly worked well, and I continue to use it. I get the IPA in 200 litre drums (44 gallon) It is about AUSD$2.50/litre.
IPA in fuel (carburetted cars) reduces the freezing effect in the Carbie and idling and acceleration is much smoother. Introduction of Oxygen from the IPA makes fuel burn hotter and more complete. For my two cents worth, I think it is better that Ethanol in Fuel.

[slide]

Isn't that something! Learn something everday. I will let you know what results we get before posting on the forum.

[slide]

Elkins45 I sent you a pm

[kevin c]

Ordered my TruBlu.

While I have a multimeter, it only has one input for a k probe. I might get a unit that lets me read more, then I can graph simultaneous heating of a plain boolit versus regular coating versus metallic ;^]

[dansedgli]

You can buy isopropyl alchohol from bunnings and jaycar. About $10 for 250ml. 99.8%.

I use it to make liquid chalk.

[HI-TEK]

You can buy isopropyl alchohol from bunnings and jaycar. About $10 for 250ml. 99.8%.

I use it to make liquid chalk.

WOW,
I have purchased Metho in Bunnings, but not seen IPA. That price is outrageous ($40.00/litre) considering price of commercial IPA being about $2.50/litre.. I have not been in a Jaycar store for 20 years or more.

[Stephen Cohen]

WOW,
I have purchased Metho in Bunnings, but not seen IPA. That price is outrageous ($40.00/litre) considering price of commercial IPA being about $2.50/litre.. I have not been in a Jaycar store for 20 years or more.

Looks like you could make a few bucks Joe, if you bottled it and sold it at $5.00 a 250ml bottle. Regards Stepehen

[HI-TEK]

Looks like you could make a few bucks Joe, if you bottled it and sold it at $5.00 a 250ml bottle. Regards Stephen


I would be happy if it can be sold for a couple of bucks more per litre plus packaging. The local DG freight cost would kill any interest.

[Ausglock]

I'll stay with Acetone.
It has proven to be reliable.

[Elkins45]

You can buy isopropyl alchohol from bunnings and jaycar. About $10 for 250ml. 99.8%.

I use it to make liquid chalk.

You could probably go to the liquor store and buy a bottle of grain alcohol cheaper than that!

[slide]

What proof is grain alcohol?

[Elkins45]

What proof is grain alcohol?

Because ethanol and water are mutually soluble (the proper term is miscible) the maximum purity you can get by ordinary distillation is 95% or 190 proof. I think the Everclear brand is 190 proof.

If you need to remove the last bit of water then you have to resort to methods like drying it with magnesium sulfate. You can buy 100% alcohol from chemical suppliers but as you illustrated it is much more expensive than the impure stuff.

[HI-TEK]

What proof is grain alcohol?

I think you would have some problems with grain alcohol, it can be about 40-50% alcohol, water, and who know what else they add as flavouring. I get the reference about price of IPA versus good Bourbon
$40 for 1 litre IPA is nearly same price as drinking stuff. At least IPA is 95% whilst drinking stuff is about 50%
I know, that Ethanol for use in Pharmaceuticals is denatured with IPA so no taxes apply and is not drinkable. (well, you can drink it but I don't think It will be much good for you).

[HI-TEK]

Because ethanol and water are mutually soluble (the proper term is miscible) the maximum purity you can get by ordinary distillation is 95% or 190 proof. I think the Everclear brand is 190 proof.

If you need to remove the last bit of water then you have to resort to methods like drying it with magnesium sulfate. You can buy 100% alcohol from chemical suppliers but as you illustrated it is much more expensive than the impure stuff.

Elkins45
I don't think I have seen a 190 proof stuff here. May be I was not looking enough.

Ethanol, that is used for addition to fuel, is dehydrated with molecular sieves. They remove/trap water molecules from the ethanol. Afterwards, the Molecular Sieves are dried to remove water then re-used to dry more alcohol.
Other method used, (much more expensive and requires distillation afterwards) is using Phosphorous oxide. This reacts and combines with Water, to form Phosphoric Acid. It totally dehydrates Ethanol.

[HI-TEK]

Because ethanol and water are mutually soluble (the proper term is miscible) the maximum purity you can get by ordinary distillation is 95% or 190 proof. I think the Everclear brand is 190 proof.

If you need to remove the last bit of water then you have to resort to methods like drying it with magnesium sulfate. You can buy 100% alcohol from chemical suppliers but as you illustrated it is much more expensive than the impure stuff.

Elkins45
I looked up a couple of Molecular sieve details
one is
https://www.molecularsievedesiccants.com/molecular-sieve-for-ethanol-dehydration/
The other is
http://molecularsievedesiccant.com/

There is many instructions how to dry Ethanol with Molecular Sieves, and afterwards the dry Ethanol can be used as fuel additive.
The difficulty is, that the "system" must be sealed, as Ethanol does not like being dehydrated.
The 3A molecular Grade will absorb 19.5 lbs Water / 100 lbs of Molecular Resin.
The 3A is sold on Ebay in small packs but is expensive. You are better to buy it in commercial quantity, and once you have it, it can be recycled/re-used many times.

[Avenger442]

Some years ago, there was an automotive fuel additive sold in car accessory outlets (no longer sold). They had 600ml bottles to add to a tankful of Petrol/gasoline for carburetted vehicles.
It was promoted as Octane booster. It certainly worked well, and I continue to use it. I get the IPA in 200 litre drums (44 gallon) It is about AUSD$2.50/litre.
IPA in fuel (carburetted cars) reduces the freezing effect in the Carbie and idling and acceleration is much smoother. Introduction of Oxygen from the IPA makes fuel burn hotter and more complete. For my two cents worth, I think it is better that Ethanol in Fuel.

If you mix it straight with gasoline, or as some say petrol, you have to be careful with the ratio. We used to use it back in the 60s and 70s in our cars to boost power. If you get too much it will burn holes in parts when your car is not set up to use it I was told. We also used moth balls. According to some it would boost the power. The alcohol seemed to work. The few times I used mothballs I couldn't tell.

I understand adding alcohol to gas actually lowers your gas mileage a bit. Alcohol produces a quicker explosion and is not as good as gas, which has a more prolonged explosion, for your gas mileage. I suspect the people that sell it know this and it is one of the reasons they add it. Do I smell conspiracy? :grin:

Glad to see the blue working. All please post your results with wipe and smash test.

[HI-TEK]

If you mix it straight with gasoline, or as some say petrol, you have to be careful with the ratio. We used to use it back in the 60s and 70s in our cars to boost power. If you get too much it will burn holes in parts when your car is not set up to use it I was told. We also used moth balls. According to some it would boost the power. The alcohol seemed to work. The few times I used mothballs I couldn't tell.

Glad to see the blue working. All please post your results with wipe and smash test.


Avenger442,
You are correct, over use/excessive use of IPA is no good at all, as the burning of fuel gets much higher temperatures than components are designed for. Generally use of IPA is advised to be added at 1%, or 1 litre IPA per 100 litre fuel.
I always wonder why Ethanol is added to Fuel (Petrol) at 10%? At this rate fuel would be very hot, and as Ethanol absorbs moisture and can Oxidise, it can form acid, and corrode and dissolve metals carrying the fuel. None of the fuels service stations have moisture absorbing locks on the Ethanol fuels.
5 litre steel fuel cans corrode away fairly quickly with Ethanolised fuel.
People who think they are doing the right thing by buying the "environmentally better" lower cost fuels, often don't realise the long terms problems (and expenses) caused to car components and tanks that are not designed for such fuels.

[HI-TEK]

Quote "I understand adding alcohol to gas actually lowers your gas mileage a bit. Alcohol produces a quicker explosion and is not as good as gas, which has a more prolonged explosion, for your gas mileage. I suspect the people that sell it know this and it is one of the reasons they add it. Do I smell conspiracy? :grin:

Glad to see the blue working. All please post your results with wipe and smash test.

Avenger,
Just like changing from Petrol to Liquified Gas, the electrical timing system must be adjusted to correct settings to utilise the narrower power band produced by each fuel.
Most people do not understand this "tune up" requirements, so as you say, they end up using more fuel because of it. Most simply look at the Ethanol blend fuel as being cheaper, so they think they are saving money. It is not realised, that they use more Ethanolised fuel to go same distance as non Ethanol fuels. In real terms, it is ending up costing a lot more over time both immediately and long term.

Conspiracy???? may be....it provides more tax revenue to governments, and provides lots of repair jobs for mechanics and spare parts suppliers who also pay tax, including goods and service tax.
Ethanol producers are assured with constant demand for Ethanol into fuels, so they benefit as well.
On it goes.... poor car owners.....

[Stephen Cohen]

Joe, I will post how the blue works as soon as it gets dry enough to walk out back. All this chemistry lesson on Ethanol makes me wonder about my love of Bourbon and Bundy. I have a mate who would agree with you in regard to cheaper Ethanol fuels as he is kept busy replacing, in tank fuel pumps that have failed due to corrosion. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I will post how the blue works as soon as it gets dry enough to walk out back. All this chemistry lesson on Ethanol makes me wonder about my love of Bourbon and Bundy. I have a mate who would agree with you in regard to cheaper Ethanol fuels as he is kept busy replacing, in tank fuel pumps that have failed due to corrosion. Regards Stephen

Stephen
Thanks for update.
I am going to get in trouble steering this site into unsuitable off-subject areas.

Last 3 or so days, we have been blessed with excellent rain. A creek behind us that has been dry for about 2 1/2 years is full and flowing freely after 2 days of rain. It has eliminated our worst fear of being burned out with bushfires.

If you are also getting rain, the only way you will be able to dry coating adequately is warm air drying. It is simply much too humidity for proper drying.

Man after my own taste, Honey Bourbon and Directors Special Bundy Rum.

With Oxygenated fuels, & corrosion in car parts, this can be easily stopped but they don't want to do that. Many years ago, I used to be involved with a company, supplying fuel additives that was supposedly added to Ethanol based fuels that stops oxidation of fuel, and also prevents corrosion and lubricated moving parts handling fuel.. Refineries refused to use it because it added about 0.0001 cent per litre to fuel manufacture costs.
I suspect that now consumers are paying the extra price, with repairs needed, (probably 100,000 fold or more)
Replacing in tank failed pumps, is only a tip of an iceberg situation and is cheapest repair.
Other areas of corrosion will not show up for longer periods, and that is where there is huge costs involved such as fuel lines, injectors. In some cars, heads will also be corroded especially Aluminium types.
Then there is exhaust systems, where acidic Water condensation eats away mufflers and pipes. Some fancy exhausts in modern cars is hundreds of Dollars to replace.
I got a shock the other day, when I had my car Rego Checked. I was talking to the mechanic inspector, he showed me that my car had 3 Catalytic converters, (all ok at this time), and without muffler and pipes it would cost about $5,000 to replace converters if they corroded away or developed exhaust leaks. Despite my exhaust being Stainless Steel, the acidic gasses in time, destroys Stainless ability to protect itself, and simply becomes pin holed and leak like a sieve..
Stainless steel simply does not rust, but will corrode. Even Orange Juice eats Stainless.

[Avenger442]

Have a 1990 Nissan SX with 50,000 miles on the clock sitting in my driveway with a failed fuel pump. It sat for several years and didn't get cranked (mother-in -laws car). New fuel pump to be installed is sitting near my foot as I type this. But we have too many cars and don't need it right now.

Since the bake temp is an issue with the blue. I would like to ask an additional item be posted. For those of you that measure temps please post them and time baked after putting in oven. This along with photos of finished and wipe and smash test. I'm still working with mine.

[Avenger442]

Got a new toy.
256317

256318

Eight round Ruger Redhawk 357 magnum. It is my combined Christmas, Anniversary and Birthday gift.

[Ausglock]

TruBlu data.

Tray load: 250 9mm 135gn RN
Pre-warn loaded trays: Yes
Oven temp:195
No. of trays per oven bake: 2
Bake time: 7:30mins
Turn trays at 1/2 way mark: Yes.
Wipe test: Pass
smash test: Pass

[HI-TEK]

TruBlu data.

Tray load: 250 9mm 135gn RN
Pre-warn loaded trays: Yes
Oven temp:195
No. of trays per oven bake: 2
Bake time: 7:30mins
Turn trays at 1/2 way mark: Yes.
Wipe test: Pass
smash test: Pass

For my 2 cents worth, it is more important to monitor load temperature in oven, instead of oven temperatures.
All Hi-Tek coatings need to get to 180C, and, after that, held there or slightly above for another 2 minutes. All colours will benefit with closer product temperature monitoring.
Ovens are simply source of controlled heat to bake loads.
The higher the oven temperature is set, the faster product is heated, but there is a down side to this.
With oven set at higher temperatures, it is quite possible to over bake or over shoot product temperatures, and quickly, especially when there can be a distraction that takes attention off the watching of a baking load.
It is very easy to have a load baked for an extra 1 minute.
If the oven temperature is set "high", in that extra 1 minute baking, colour change becomes more noticeable.

[HI-TEK]

Since the bake temp is an issue with the blue. I would like to ask an additional item be posted. For those of you that measure temps please post them and time baked after putting in oven. This along with photos of finished and wipe and smash test. I'm still working with mine.

Avenger442
The bake temperature with Blue is not an issue. As I have said, many times, the Hi-Tek coatings need to be heated to 180C and kept there (or close enough) for another 2 minutes.
People seem to be concentrating/focusing on oven temperatures, when they should be watching product temperatures.
Ausglock, already had reported baking Blue, and when load was taken out of oven, it was near 195C, (using an IR thermometer). Blue remained Blue.
Another 1 minute later, in same oven, same settings, the Blue started going towards Green.
This colour change with over bake, occurs with all Hi-Tek coatings aside from Black versions. Blacks will remain black with over bake.
It is much better to set ovens closer to required temperatures, and colour and reproducibility can be maintained

[Ausglock]

I already have my alloy core heat temp time, so I don't check it anymore.
That's why I keep 7:30 time for all my baking. whether it is 9mm, 44, 45 etc. tray loading controls my baking procedure.

[Avenger442]

Avenger442
The bake temperature with Blue is not an issue. As I have said, many times, the Hi-Tek coatings need to be heated to 180C and kept there (or close enough) for another 2 minutes.
People seem to be concentrating/focusing on oven temperatures, when they should be watching product temperatures.
Ausglock, already had reported baking Blue, and when load was taken out of oven, it was near 195C, (using an IR thermometer). Blue remained Blue.
Another 1 minute later, in same oven, same settings, the Blue started going towards Green.
This colour change with over bake, occurs with all Hi-Tek coatings aside from Black versions. Blacks will remain black with over bake.
It is much better to set ovens closer to required temperatures, and colour and reproducibility can be maintained

Joe
So are you saying there is not a time and temp sensitivity with the blue that does not exist with the other colors?
As you know by previous post I am not the color guy. I care more about performance out of the barrel to target. And Hi Tek will give you that. But would like the blue to work as it is one of my college's colors. While I have tested colors for you guys in the past and had pretty much the same results as Ausglock, I will admit I am not the color Guru.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4825193]Joe
So are you saying there is not a time and temp sensitivity with the blue that does not exist with the other colors?


Avenger442
What I am trying to say is, that all the HI-TEK coatings can be affected with over bake or longer bakes, but extra heat or longer heating only affects colour.
I am trying to also say and repeat, that the requirements to correctly bake the HI-TEK coatings, is the coated alloys in an oven, needs to get to 180C, and stay there or nearby for approximately another 2 minutes.
When ovens are set at higher temperatures,(200C or more) there is a stronger possibility of over baking taking place, and more attention is needed for time in oven, when to take out product, and when it is ready and is baked adequately.
The 200C was adopted, by commercial casters, simply to speed up production rates. That information is now used by hobbyists, and is appearing to be causing some confusion and overbake colour problems.
I have suggested many times, that it seems to me, that people focus on Oven temperatures.
The focus should be on product temperatures.
It is not possible to accurately determine product temperature without an IR gun. Sticking a thermometer inside oven only measures air temperatures. That does not guarantee product temperatures being the same.
If you look at the graph of coated cast temperature (that was posted) the oven was set at 180C, and oven held that temperature at 180C (air temperature). However, the coated cast load had a lag time and lower temperatures by up to 20C less than oven set temperature. It took several minutes for coated cast load to get to the oven temperature of 180C.
If the oven is set to 200C, the air in oven is at 200C, and same load will get to 180C much faster, and will continue rising in temperature towards 200C.
This faster rise in temperature can result in over bake, if user is not aware, when load temperatures have been reached for correct cure.
For reference example, if product baked at 180-185C for 10 minutes, if products baked at 200C for same 10 minutes, the colour looks different and either darker or changed.
If user does not mind colour change, all is good.
For people who want more even reproducible colours, the 10 minutes bake at 200C is not same colour as obtained at 180C.
I am not saying that people cant use 200C settings, but much more care/attention is needed to keep an eye on actual product temperatures, which governs set rate requirements and also final colours.

[Tazza]

That's the beauty of me mainly using black, if i over bake it, it still stays black :)

I do also use a little 122 red, for me, it always comes out the same red/purple with 12 minute bakes @200c. I did try and lower the bake time for black and red, but they must not have gotten to 180c for the required time to cure as they did not all pass the wipe test, so i stick with 12 minutes. It works for me.

The times i noticed that they did not all fully cure is when doing the second coat, some looked lighter, as in the same shade as the initial coat, it wasn't cured so it simply washed off and re-applied when i was shaking them around.

I'm sure i could use shorter bake times if i did smaller batches, but it all goes on what works for you in the end.

I'm wanting to try a new colour to put on my hot open gun loads so i can't mess up and put a hot load in my standard gun and potentially blow it up. Considering trying the dead pool ones Trevor did with red and black....

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Tazza;4825381]That's the beauty of me mainly using black, if i over bake it, it still stays black :)

I do also use a little 122 red, for me, it always comes out the same red/purple with 12 minute bakes @200c. I did try and lower the bake time for black and red, but they must not have gotten to 180c for the required time to cure as they did not all pass the wipe test, so i stick with 12 minutes. It works for me.

The times i noticed that they did not all fully cure is when doing the second coat, some looked lighter, as in the same shade as the initial coat, it wasn't cured so it simply washed off and re-applied when i was shaking them around.

Tazza,
you in fact identified exactly what I was trying to say. Oven set at 200 does not tell you, at what point your load has reached correct temperatures. The wipe off test simply exposes the problem, that oven set temperatures does not tell you what is the temperature of your load. Your load, simply did not reach 180C, so the solvent test showed this. You could have simply returned this under cooked load back into the oven to finish it off.
Solvent fail test, is also indicating, you may have over loaded oven, and possibly, you also may not have adequate air circulation to transfer heated air energy to transfer that heat to the load.

[slide]

A.T.M. Fellas A.T.M.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;4825392][QUOTE=Tazza;4825381]


The times I noticed that they did not all fully cure is when doing the second coat, some looked lighter, as in the same shade as the initial coat, it wasn't cured so it simply washed off and re-applied when I was shaking them around.

Tazza,
You have also identified that with second coat, the heat transfer into load was slower.
This is directly due to the additional coat being applied and because coating is insulating, heat transfer was slowed to correctly heat up load.
This also exposes possibility that oven may have been over loaded and you have not adequate heat circulation.
If you had used an IR laser thermometer, to measure product temperatures, it would have saved you a lot of Gray hairs. It would have revealed the true product temperature versus oven settings when you were taking out that load. Then you could have slipped that tray back into the oven, and bake some more until load was at 180C and for another 2 minutes afterwards.
SIMPLE...….

[Tazza]

[QUOTE=Tazza;4825381]

Tazza,
you in fact identified exactly what I was trying to say. Oven set at 200 does not tell you, at what point your load has reached correct temperatures. The wipe off test simply exposes the problem, that oven set temperatures does not tell you what is the temperature of your load. Your load, simply did not reach 180C, so the solvent test showed this. You could have simply returned this under cooked load back into the oven to finish it off.
Solvent fail test, is also indicating, you may have over loaded oven, and possibly, you also may not have adequate air circulation to transfer heated air energy to transfer that heat to the load.

That is exactly what i was going for, the oven may be up to temperature and the projectiles are in there for what people think is long enough, but the actual projectiles have not yet reached the required temperature to cure. This shows that for one person 7.5 minutes works, yet for others like me, need the full 12 minutes for it to get there. I could put less in my trays to make it heat faster, but hey, 12 minutes works for me.

If i knew they were under cooked, i would have put them in again as i have messed up before and had the oven set to 150c for some stupid reason. Did a few batches and could smell that they didn't seem right, but continued doing the batches, then i saw the setting was wrong, a few choice words, i re-baked them at the correct temperature and they cured just fine, so i can confirm it does work without issues.

[bazzer485]

Hi Tek problems. Smoking and rough finish
I’ve just coated my first 45acp boolits ( 223 gn and 6.6 gn Power Postol) and shooting them I’ve more smoking than with conventional lubed boolits. I gave them three thin coats, they didn’t turn out smooth at all, the color is Kriptonite Geen. They past both the smash test and the acetone rubbing test. So are my results normal? I did start reading the Hi Tek thread, but 629 pages is a little time consuming. I really would like to get rid of the smoking issue, I don’t really care about color or the rough textured finish.
Thanks
Bazzer

[Tazza]

Rough texture could be because you are shaking them too long and the coating was too dry when you dropped them out, leaving a rough texture. If you dump them sooner, you should have a smooth coating.

As for smoke, it does sound like under cooking, but if they pass the wipe and smash tests, they should be fully cured.

Can you try cooking a batch longer to see if it's not quite cured causing the smoke?

[Ausglock]

Power Pistol powder is bloody smokie. No matter what pills you use...And very flashie as well.
Great fun in an open gun.......

[slide]

bazzer485, when I suggested you move your post to here I forgot to mention Ausglock He is the tester for hi-tek and has probably coated more bullets than anybody on the planet. Listen to what he says!

[HI-TEK]

Hi Tek problems. Smoking and rough finish
I’ve just coated my first 45acp boolits ( 223 gn and 6.6 gn Power Postol) and shooting them I’ve more smoking than with conventional lubed boolits. I gave them three thin coats, they didn’t turn out smooth at all, the color is Kriptonite Geen. They past both the smash test and the acetone rubbing test. So are my results normal? I did start reading the Hi Tek thread, but 629 pages is a little time consuming. I really would like to get rid of the smoking issue, I don’t really care about color or the rough textured finish.
Thanks
Bazzer

Bazzer
whereabouts are you located?
Did you get a copy of coating method?
It would be useful if you can post a picture of first coat after coating (not baked), and also take a picture of first coat after baking.
What is bore diameter and what size do you size your projectile?
What equipment do you use to load?

Smoking issues, it is like Ausglock posted.
Roughness, it is like Tazza posted.

Once we have picture of first coat, before and after bake, and you supply other details requested, more appropriate answers can be supplied.

[Gremlin460]

Not wanting to side-track anyone from their fun and games, but....

2018 blood test showed 9.5pmm Lead contaminate.
2020 blood test last week showed 11.7pmm lead contimination.

According to the Doc 70+pmm is the worry point.. However my levels did trigger a mandatory report to the health authorities.
Now i do not eat, chew or suck on my raw casts, in fact I use nitro gloves until they have had their first coat.
Couple casting with picking up brass. Handling fired brass for depriming etc etc has given me these results..

please get tested and keep an eye on your readings.. It got me by suprise when results came back.

[Ausglock]

Grem...
My lead levels drift between 10 to 13 over the last 6 years.
The last 3 have been 11,12,10... I'm a bit more carefull with hand washing.
I glove all times.

The wort place to get high lead is at the Gold Coast Pistol club the ranges that have the slanting steel stop butts are the worst. you can actually taste the lead in the air as you re-set the poppers.. the air is dead still and I refuse to reset them.

[kevin c]

Got my TruBlu from Donnie today. It came with specific instructions on temp to cure at and that baking over the recommended three minutes at temp might yield a green color instead of the blue. The sheet also recommended the AtM technique.

Gotta get some casting done so I can do some coating. I also want to get more K probes and a digital readout that can display at least two inputs so I can establish my baselines as well as do some comparisons.

[Burnt Fingers]

Got my TruBlu from Donnie today. It came with specific instructions on temp to cure at and that baking over the recommended three minutes at temp might yield a green color instead of the blue. The sheet also recommended the AtM technique.

Gotta get some casting done so I can do some coating. I also want to get more K probes and a digital readout that can display at least two inputs so I can establish my baselines as well as do some comparisons.


I received mine yesterday. Perhaps I should actually look at that ream of paper that came with it. :)

[Avenger442]

Will need close load temperature control to get blue and not green. If it goes green your temp or time is off. Since most of us have some difference in what we are baking in times will probably vary. Once you have your settings for your set up it should be easy.

Again I ask that all of you doing the blue pill (pun intended) post photos of wipe and smash after you get the color right. I've seen photos of the blue coated from Petander Ausglock and Donnie. So it can be done. Thanks ahead of time for your post.

[Tazza]

Not wanting to side-track anyone from their fun and games, but....

2018 blood test showed 9.5pmm Lead contaminate.
2020 blood test last week showed 11.7pmm lead contimination.

According to the Doc 70+pmm is the worry point.. However my levels did trigger a mandatory report to the health authorities.
Now i do not eat, chew or suck on my raw casts, in fact I use nitro gloves until they have had their first coat.
Couple casting with picking up brass. Handling fired brass for depriming etc etc has given me these results..

please get tested and keep an eye on your readings.. It got me by suprise when results came back.

I got mine tested early 2019 after a lot of nagging from the misses, was 8.2 i think, then got tested again in October, 11.something my doc was not overly happy with me. I was using paper masks that obviously didn't help.... So now i'm using a cartridge filter mask that hopefully is helping. I'm not sure where my exposure is coming from, the casting or the collection of range scrap that contains a lot of powder. I'm very careful to wash my hands before eating, i resist the urge to lick lead bars.

[Ausglock]

Mine went to 13 and I couldn't figure out why... Then it hit me.
I was wet tumbling and rinsing with bare hands in the tumble water... That dark, dirty water is full of lead residue.. my skin was soaking it up like a sponge. Since gloving for Wet Tumble, lead levels are back to where they should be..

[Tazza]

Mine went to 13 and I couldn't figure out why... Them it hit me.
I was wet tumbling and rinsing with bare hands in the tumble water... That dark, dirty water is full of lead residue.. my skin was soaking it up like a sponge. Since gloving for Wet Tumble, lead levels are back to where they should be..

I have heard of this before too, i dry tumble, and i think the dust from that could be messing me up as well. I hope to go wet tumble and like you, be careful with the nasty water.

[kevin c]

Wet tumbling brought down my lead levels after switching from dry tumbling and no longer mining my clubs dusty berms. But that's a really good observation on the skin contact with the cleaning water. Gloves it will be from now on. Thanks, Ausglock.

[Gremlin460]

I shoot at the gold coast pistol club, bu I shoot service/Nra/Ten-Pin so no poppers for me.
I also wet tumble, anyone who has wet tumbled and seen the crap that is captured in the water, will never dry tumble again if they smart.
Yes I am @ 11.7 but as doc says 70 is the nasty line, so now I try to keep the exposure to a minimum.
At least coated pills are safe to handle :).

Just thought this was worth mentioning in my first post.. Its not mentioned as much as it should be.

Mike.

[slide]

Didn't Joe do some testing on how much lead was released when firing a hi tek round? If I remember it was almost nothing. Maybe he will chime in.

[Tazza]

I shoot at the gold coast pistol club, bu I shoot service/Nra/Ten-Pin so no poppers for me.
I also wet tumble, anyone who has wet tumbled and seen the crap that is captured in the water, will never dry tumble again if they smart.
Yes I am @ 11.7 but as doc says 70 is the nasty line, so now I try to keep the exposure to a minimum.
At least coated pills are safe to handle :).

Just thought this was worth mentioning in my first post.. Its not mentioned as much as it should be.

Mike.

I hope to build a tumbler, $500 odd from aussie sapphires is a bit much for me, if i win the lotto, that may change.

I didn't notice a smell of lead at SPIPC, but i can see how in any indoor range, workers get higher than desired exposure. I'm no where near the bad point, but i'd like to keep it as low as i can. I run IPSC and steel challenge at my range, so i'm exposed more than the regular shooters are when next to them with a timer, copping smoke and potential lead dust.

It would indeed be interesting to see the lead from coated projectiles, sadly not everyone uses them at my range. Is there lead in the priming materials?

[slide]

Primers contain lead styphnates and produce lead oxide. So yeah they will produce smoke that you can breathe. You can buy lead free primers but,they are about 5.5 cents apiece where regular primers are around 3 cents apiece. I have never shot at an indoor range. Doesn't the ventilation system take care of the stuff floating around in the air?

[HI-TEK]

Didn't Joe do some testing on how much lead was released when firing a hi tek round? If I remember it was almost nothing. Maybe he will chime in.

Slide,
I am attaching test results, where atomised Lead emissions were measured to Australian and US requirements for atomised Lead exposures.

First lot of Firing.
50 rounds were fired, within 30 minutes equally spaced throughout the 30 minutes.
Pistol; Smith & Wesson, model 66, with 6 inch Barrel.
Brass Cases; 38 Special, mixed brand.
Primer; Federal
Powder, Charge 3 grains Winchester WST, per case with primers and Blanks made of Plastic.

Second Firing;
50 rounds were fired, within 30 minutes equally spaced throughout the 30 minutes.
Pistol; Glock, model 35
40 Cal mixed brand Brass Cases,
Primer, Federal
Powder, Charge Winchester WST, 3.8 grains per case.
Projectile 167 grain Flat Point Copper Plated.

Third Firing
50 rounds were fired, within 30 minutes equally spaced throughout the 30 minutes.
Pistol; Glock, model 35 as above,
Mixed brand, Brass 40 cal. Cases.
Primer; Winchester Small Pistol
Powder; Winchester WST, 3 grains per case.
Projectile; 155 SWC , with Metallic Gold, Lubricating coating.

Lead test results
Lead atomisation emission results with the HI-TEK-LUBE SUPERCOAT, met the Work Safe Australia Exposure standards for Atmospheric Contaminants in Occupational Environment May 1995, Lead Inorganic Dust, and the HI-TEK-LUBE Supercoat Gold that was tested, was comparable with Copper Plated type of projectiles in Lead emissions.
The HI-TEK-LUBE SUPERCOAT (Gold), met the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH), Lead elemental and Inorganic Compounds acceptable exposure limits.
LEAD EMISSION RESULTS Lead Levels AUST. WORKSAFE LIMIT ACGIH LIMIT
Copper Plated Projectiles 0.84 ug/M3 150ug/Cubic Metre 50ug/ Cubic Metre
HI-TEK-LUBE Supercoat 2.56 ug/ M3 150ug/Cubic Metre 50ug/ Cubic Metre
(Old Gold Metallic)

These were carried out inside a Shooting Range that was not used for 1 week before tests were done. We noted afterwards, that the atomised Lead when shooting the Gold, ( 3rd shooting test) was elevated slightly more than the Copper Plated cast. It was realised by tester, that by the time we shor Hi-Tek coated casts, there was an obvious visible cloud. It was reported with test results, that the slightly higher Lead readings with Hi-Tek coated casts, that we disturbed the settled Lead dust with the shooting and introduced atomised Lead from previous shooting. This increase this was picked up by air sampling equipment, and may have contributed to slight increase in the Gold coating Lead results.
Despite that, the results are, that the HI-TEK coated cast easily met Australian and US health standards for Lead emission exposure, and was very comparable to Copper Coated Cast.

[HI-TEK]

Primers contain lead styphnates and produce lead oxide. So yeah they will produce smoke that you can breathe. You can buy lead free primers but,they are about 5.5 cents apiece where regular primers are around 3 cents apiece. I have never shot at an indoor range. Doesn't the ventilation system take care of the stuff floating around in the air?

Slide, most indoor ranges have air filtration systems. Some work well others not so well.

[Tazza]

Primers contain lead styphnates and produce lead oxide. So yeah they will produce smoke that you can breathe. You can buy lead free primers but,they are about 5.5 cents apiece where regular primers are around 3 cents apiece. I have never shot at an indoor range. Doesn't the ventilation system take care of the stuff floating around in the air?

They do have ventilation systems in place, but i don't think you can ever get it all. Air comes in behind you, and out near the bullet trap.

I figure, even if i used lead free primers, others won't, so i'm still exposed, so why bother with the extra cost.

[slide]

Thanks Joe and Tazza!

[Tazza]

Joe - it's a shame a test wasn't done with plain lubed projectiles too, it would show just how much more protection is given with hi-tek vs plain 'ol lubed lead. As the copper plated projectiles still had lead, it has to be from the primers.

[HI-TEK]

Joe - it's a shame a test wasn't done with plain lubed projectiles too, it would show just how much more protection is given with hi-tek vs plain 'ol lubed lead. As the copper plated projectiles still had lead, it has to be from the primers.

Tazza,
If you look at my blog it does report blank testing, and Lead produced from Primer and Powder has been calculated.
These tests cost a bomb, (along the price of about AUSD$12,000). And, as Copper Plated was the most used/popular, and cheaper than Jacketed ammo, it was thought that this is the one we need to make comparisons with. We already knew, that normal grease type of lubes provide much atomised Lead. As HI-TEK produced reasonable equivalent atomised Lead as plated type, the plated was the logical choice to use for comparison tests for comparison.
Recent tests, in last 12 months, conducted by Forensic testing, revealed the high levels of Atomised Lead caused by normal lubes as compared to Jacketed and Hi-Tek coated cast...
I am going to find out, if I can obtain and publish results. From what I have learnt, it was not a quantifiable (no numbers were available for atomised Lead ) result, but the tests clearly showed jacketed, lubed, and coated cast on side by side comparison. It is a visual direct comparison.

[dansedgli]

Shot quite possibly my best 50m group with iron sights this morning. 160 grain round nose with Tru Blue hitek out of a muscrat custom 357 sig 2011.

I'm an IPSC shooter so don't do this a lot. Shame about the 9.

256698

[HI-TEK]

Shot quite possibly my best 50m group with iron sights this morning. 160 grain round nose with Tru Blue hitek out of a muscrat custom 357 sig 2011.

I'm an IPSC shooter so don't do this a lot. Shame about the 9.

256698

dansedgli,
That is great shooting. It seems that TRUBLU actually works OK. This also confirms other peoples tests.
When you dialed temperatures back a little, what did you end up with oven setting and what was final baked temperatures of oven load?

[Ausglock]

IPSC rocks... If we were meant to shoot groups, We would be ISSF....(No Way in hell)

[dansedgli]

dansedgli,
That is great shooting. It seems that TRUBLU actually works OK. This also confirms other peoples tests.
When you dialed temperatures back a little, what did you end up with oven setting and what was final baked temperatures of oven load?

I didnt end up getting an IR thermometer so unsure of load temp. In the end I put the oven back to 190 oven temp but reduced time to 10 minutes instead of 11.

[Elkins45]

I just ordered three new colors, gold, candy apple red and zombie green. As I was looking at the colors available I realized one is mission: silver. We need silver bullets so we can fight werewolves and vampires, or so we can make Lone Ranger loads.

In all seriousness, silver would be a nice color option if that’s possible.

[portersandstouts]

200 grainer 38's, 260 44's and 12 gauge RB:s. All good.

https://i.postimg.cc/DZx4fDSG/IMG-20200205-201717-932.jpg


Hey guys, so quick question.I have been casting for a while and just started messing around with Hi-Tek coatings. (And yes I read the thread, or a t least a lot of it.) What I need a little help with is this. It looks like some of you use a temp probe embedded in an un-coated bullet to monitor temps in the oven as your baking. I wanted to ask if that is correct, or if your just placing the probe ON an un-coated bullet. The pictures are a little unclear. (See post #12912 on page 646 for reference). Thanks Guys.

[slide]

I put my probe in the bullet. I make sure and use a coated bullet. You can try it on the outside. I have got to upgrade my membership so I can post photos. Coming out of a divorce and money has been tight but, it is getting better.

[slide]

Hey Joe, Somebody posted on the forum about CCI coming out with polymer coated 22 rounds. Blue and red on the colors I think. Any idea what they are using to coat and how they do it?

[Ausglock]

Silver is a no go at this time... the resin causes yellowing, so trials of silver go gold.

[slide]

Elkins45, you picked some good colors. They are all easy to work with!!

[Elkins45]

Elkins45, you picked some good colors. They are all easy to work with!!

My first try with the zombie green came out a sludge brown color. This was using the same times and temps that have worked with bronze and candy apple red. Not impressed with the color so I hope at least it will shoot OK.

[Elkins45]

I have got to upgrade my membership so I can post photos.

I’m pretty sure you can post photos at any membership level. I know I can and I haven’t contributed to the site in the last couple of years.

[Elkins45]

I don’t think you can insert images into a PM so I’m just going to do it here.

The first step is to click on the photos icon. It looks like a picture frame.

256724

Once you do that a dialogue box pops up. I’m assuming you are using a photo you have on your computer so select the “From Computer” tab. Click the “Choose Photo” button and find the image.

256725

Once it shows up in the box click “Upload Files” below it.

256726

[slide]

Thanks, really appreciate it. I don't know where I got the idea you had to have a certain membership to post photos. When I was growing up our computers were big chief tablets and #2 pencils. I"ll bet there not many who remember those.

[Ausglock]

256728

This now works... I used to have to host images on imgur....woohoo..

[slide]

Very Nice Ausglock!!!

[Stephen Cohen]

Nice shirt Ausglock. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Hey Joe, Somebody posted on the forum about CCI coming out with polymer coated 22 rounds. Blue and red on the colors I think. Any idea what they are using to coat and how they do it?

Slide, I am not aware of what CCI may be using. If they are US based may be Donnie can shed some light on these folk. I looked at loaded ammo with Red colour on alloy. I have not seen any Blue ones.

[dikman]

Elkins, as long as they pass the smash test etc they should shoot fine. Sounds like they've just been overcooked a wee bit.

[Petander]

I'd like to report something interesting:

I cast a bunch of 615 grain 50 cal bullets and was kinda hurrying up to get them done. So I didn't weigh them but did the math in my head... wrong.

I used 8 ml of coating for 5 lbs of bullets,three times. I noticed they were swimming... but I went on,coatings were good looking... I found out the real weight the day after. My coating was a mix again, 2 ml Tru Blu, 6ml TMG Gold Original. I like these greens I'm getting.

The thing is,smash and wipe and scratch and bite and whatever test I do, this coating has bonded perfectly and is just thicker than usual. Approx. 002". Looks good,elastic,glossy,as you can see. Tough coating.

https://i.postimg.cc/g26z4kfH/IMG-20200208-014028-682.jpg

I sized and loaded some today, 1100 fps, almost 50 k psi, working fine and clean.

https://i.postimg.cc/VkkQhHyL/IMG-20200214-151114-517.jpg

My first coat was absolutely too thick. No problems whatsoever with this mistake.

[Elkins45]

Slide, I am not aware of what CCI may be using. If they are US based may be Donnie can shed some light on these folk. I looked at loaded ammo with Red colour on alloy. I have not seen any Blue ones.

I’ve seen them in the store. They appear to be powder coated.

[slide]

I won't be buying any of them. I have heard some bad reports on the federal syntech. Why buy when you can do it yourself and get better results! Just curious.

[Burnt Fingers]

I highly doubt that CCI is using Hi-Tek.

The blue just came out and is totally different, and there is no white.

Most likely some sort of industrial polymer coating.

[HI-TEK]

I’ve seen them in the store. They appear to be powder coated.

Hi Elkins45
I looked at CCI home web page. They are in US. The advertising was done as a video by a retailer.
I noticed that the Red ( which looked very much like the Red Hi-Tek254, but I do not think they are) has speed restriction on package of 1235ft/sec. The Blue, (not Hi-Tek) had a lower speed recommendation of 1070ft/sec on package.
I wonder why speed restrictions apply to these?

[HI-TEK]

I highly doubt that CCI is using Hi-Tek.

The blue just came out and is totally different, and there is no white.

Most likely some sort of industrial polymer coating.

Burnt Fingers,
I am amazed, how new "polymer coated casts" suddenly appear, no test reports about their performance, or if they actually do what is required, no accuracy figures and no historical performance results and no safety data.. just a pretty coated alloy.
The Hi-Tek TRUBLU, was advertised about 4-5 months ago, it seems, that CCI did not take long to launch their "Blue" Polymer coating.
It simply amuses me how Hi-Tek has caused such accelerated launches of "alternate" products by several companies since the introduction of Hi-Tek to USA about 7-8 years ago.
Hi-Tek coatings may have made some realise, that this is the way ammo market has to go,
despite Hi-Tek being on the market some 25 plus years outside of the US.
With speeds as listed with CCI, I really don't know, but it seems to suggest, that they may have some concerns, but why should any lube or coating have speed restrictions?.
With Hi-Tek, speeds are not restricted and have worked at over 3000ft/sec.
As others said, with Hi-Tek, you simply coat your own, and it works. Simple....

[slide]

Joe, scroll down in this forum until you come to a thread titled pulled bullets show hi tek removed. Never seen anything like it.

[HI-TEK]

Joe, scroll down in this forum until you come to a thread titled pulled bullets show hi tek removed. Never seen anything like it.

Thanks Slide,
I had previously not subscribed to that thread. Now I do.
I did reply. From what I can see, the coating was shaved by case. I saw a deep grove/ring just below remaining coating. That is suggesting to me that inside edge of case had a sharp edge/ring. When coated cast was pulled, that sharp edge shaved off coating with Lead.
There seems also a reduction of diameter of the cast where coating/Lead was removed.
What I don't understand is, where did the shaved material disappeared to, as it was stated that no residues were inside case?

[Ausglock]

People rarely tell you the full story.........

[Gremlin460]

IPSC rocks... If we were meant to shoot groups, We would be ISSF....(No Way in hell)

Rubbish , when the zombies come, I aint running from window to window to get em all!

[RydForLyf]

I too have the Tru Blu green problem. I’ve spoken to Donnie and just can’t get it to pass the wipe test when blue. My oven is forced air and PID controlled. I also have a thermocouple in a bullet. I start a 2 minute timer when bullet internal temp hits 365. When pulling them out internal temp is near 390. Tomorrow I will attempt to hit internal temp of 180C (356 F) and keep it cooler to see if I can get a true Auburn blue as I too an am alum like Avenger442.

I have a second problem with my green tru blu 9mm Lee 120 gn TC bullets (sized .357) leading badly in a G17 at first magazine. Alloy is COWW with 20% Linotype. I can shoot this all day in my G35 Lee 175 gn TC @.401 without a problem, but have never been able to get the 9mm to shoot clean with hard cast. I really thought HI-TEK was my way out of JHP, but so far, this 9mm round keeps kicking my butt.

Grasping at straws in Georgia

[HI-TEK]

Joe, scroll down in this forum until you come to a thread titled pulled bullets show hi tek removed. Never seen anything like it.

I looked ad a new post, where I saw smash tests. They were just fine.
However, the revelation that there is a groove in casting, is now starting to confirm, that whilst loading, the case seems being folded inwards into that groove forming a lip with inner edge being inside that groove. This inner edge, is far smaller in diameter to the cast, and when cast is pulled, the inner edge of case simply becomes a shaving tool to shave Lead with coating.
There seems to be no other explanation why alloy is shaved clean, and why shaved area is smaller in diameter to the rest of the cast... What is of concern is, that the initial comments was that the case had no residues. I continue to wonder, where is the material that was shaved from the cast when it was pulled? That material needs careful examination to reveal things.

[RydForLyf]

Replying to Avenger442

Oven temp 390

5 lbs of bullets going in at 65F room temp.

Removed at 7:30 and they’re green.
Internal bullet temp hit 365 at 5:30. Went 2 minutes more as instructed.

Tomorrow I’ll shoot for 180 internal (356) and try pre-heat.

Something has got to give as I’ve seen the pictures. This one just seems tricky.

[HI-TEK]

Replying to Avenger442

Oven temp 390

5 lbs of bullets going in at 65F room temp.

Removed at 7:30 and they’re green.
Internal bullet temp hit 365 at 5:30. Went 2 minutes more as instructed.

Tomorrow I’ll shoot for 180 internal (356) and try pre-heat.

Something has got to give as I’ve seen the pictures. This one just seems tricky.

Can you advise, about internal bullet temperatures?
Is temperature probe inserted into coated cast or plain Lead?
If your probe is in plain Lead, the actually coated cast can be at greatly different temperature.
Where is your probe located in your tray. Can the heating element burn coating with radiant heat?
The coating you are using, was pre tested several times over about 3 months, by different people and before it was sent to the US.
The baked coating which remained Blue, came out of the oven at 195C. (383F)
I don't know or understand, why suddenly such results are totally different now.

[Ausglock]

I

I have a second problem with my green tru blu 9mm Lee 120 gn TC bullets (sized .357) leading badly in a G17 at first magazine. Alloy is COWW with 20% Linotype. I can shoot this all day in my G35 Lee 175 gn TC @.401 without a problem, but have never been able to get the 9mm to shoot clean with hard cast. I really thought HI-TEK was my way out of JHP, but so far, this 9mm round keeps kicking my butt.

Grasping at straws in Georgia

What dies are you using? I can run 2,6,92 alloy sized .357 in a G17 and a G34 all day.
But use a Lee FC die and I get leading within 5 rounds.


As for the Blue. drop your temp and increase the time. Be sure that the heating elements are no closer than 4 inches from your casts. radiant heat will cause green easily.

[Avenger442]

Thanks for posting as requested RydForLyf.

I have not gone back to testing the blue after first go around. Been doing a lot in my spare time lately. I'm going to give it another go with some fresh acetone, fresh cast and lower time sometime soon. My last temp was 190C on the PID so I'm not sure I can lower the temp any more and still get 180C. My oven has shields to prevent the coils from directly heating bullets. And I'm using two K probes mounted in two coated bullets for temp sensing. I need to check Trevor's 4" from those coils. I may not be able to get that in my oven on top and bottom coils.

Joe before you say it, yes I understand 180 C for two minutes:bigsmyl2:.

And Trevor that FC is factory crimp right:roll:. I don't shoot 9mm but have been thinking about it lately. And I don't own a Lee factory crimp die so that is good to know.

[Ausglock]

Yep... The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die... ruins more cast 9mm rounds than anything else.

[kevin c]

As for the Blue. drop your temp and increase the time. Be sure that the heating elements are no closer than 4 inches from your casts. radiant heat will cause green easily.
That's good to know. My counter top convection unit isn't that big, and like avenger's, has elements above and below. Some experimentation may be in order.

[slide]

I have the tru blue. I baked it just as I bake all the other hi tek colors. It came out blue. RydForLyf can you describe your thermometer and thermocouple set up? I am trying to learn how to post photos but so far no luck. I have elements on the top and the bottom.

[Ausglock]

you can see in my oven where the tray of bullets is placed. this oven has top and bottom elements. one tray get baked in this oven. 195deg C for 12 minutes.
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

In this oven, there is an element around the fan at the back and one on the top that are active. 2 trays get baked at once in this oven. 200deg C for 7 1/2 minutes.
https://i.imgur.com/tjbDsGE.jpg

Both ovens get the trays turned 180 deg at the 1/2 time mark. This prevents colour variation due to hotspots.