simple Hi-Tek coating

[Lakehouse2012]

Do they bother people much? I'd worry about having them around kids. Other then that I think it kind of neat to have roo's in your yard, guess they could be a pain in the rear but the only roo's around here are stuck in a zoo, I feel bad for them being caged and not free to roam.They are kind of like deer for NA. Our wives think deer are so cute, us guys think they are a pain cause they jump in front of cars all the time...

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[Grmps]

My truck got run into by a mule deer, on a highway during a vacation. It caved in the left side of my truck, caught on my bumper and got flipped off the right side of the road. Luckilly the back suicide door still worked.

[benellinut]

My truck got run into by a mule deer, on a highway during a vacation. It caved in the left side of my truck, caught on my bumper and got flipped off the right side of the road. Luckilly the back suicide door still worked.

My first car Mom and Dad bought for me, shortly after I had a doe run right into the left rear door and caved it in, it knocked her on her down but she got up and ran off. All I saw was a flash out of the corner of my eye and BAM. The next day Dad asked me how I smashed up the car, when I told him he had a hard time believing me, of course I was a bit of a hell raiser so......

[Ausglock]

The Big Buck roos can get aggressive, but the Doe's are fairly quiet.
We have an orphaned baby roo here at the moment that comes up to you.
They wake you up when they are grunting, fighting or rooting just outside the bedroom window of a night.

[Avenger442]

We have so many deer where I live that the insurance company I deal with has what they call "deer insurance". It's not unusual to see them dead on the side of the road from running out in traffic.

One of the worst wrecked cars I have ever seen hit a big eight point buck. An almost new Cadillac. Hit the deer with the front end. And that looked like they hit a telephone pole. The deer bounced across the hood, got the windshield, roof and trunk on the way back. Because of the impact the driver lost control and flipped it into a ditch. Basically destroying the rest of the sheet metal and glass. There were a couple of other cars stopped at the wreck so I just stopped to ask if there was anyone hurt. The driver didn't have a scratch on her but looked like she was going to throw up at any moment.

Bet one of those guys has the antlers mounted and hanging in his basement right now.

But white tail deer have got to be one of the smartest animals around. When the season starts you have a lot of trouble finding Bambi. They have built in calendars. About mid October till the first of January they almost disappear. Middle of the summer last year there was a group of ten or so hanging out in the field across from my house. Watched me as I drove by. So why can't they learn how or when to cross the road?

[Grmps]

Here we are allowed to salvage fresh road kill for culinary purposes.

[Avenger442]

Trevor
Do you guys eat roo over there?

Slide and I are working on something as a comparison HT to PC in my .308 rifle. I've got about two weeks before I can shoot them so will try to do a "FOX News" unbiased report then. Going to try and keep everything close to the same on both bullets so it will not be apples to oranges. Will check speeds, SD and accuracy. Plan is to load 25 of each. Which will give me five groups of five for each. If anyone comes up with anything else to check put it here and I will try to do it, too.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4206859]Trevor
Do you guys eat roo over there?

Hi Avenger,
I tried Roo meat in a restaurant up in Queensland. It arrived on my plate, still kicking raw.
I was told that this is best way to eat this stuff. I could not get myself to eat it so raw. I asked that my meat be cooked a little more. They did that for me. When I tried to eat it, I would have needed steel teeth to grind the meat. It was like old boot leather, and had a strange odour. It really turned me off the stuff. Some people swear by Roo meat and eat it very rare, as it is claimed as being very high in protein and very low in fat. It is supposedly/allegedly very good for you. But for me, sorry, but cant face it. That experience really did not convince me to eat such healthy food.
I did eat Crocodile, and was very tasty. The meat came from commercial Crocodile farm where they were raising them for skin export to France and other places. The Crocks were being fed Chicken carcasses and not commercially used other Chicken parts. We were there at the time when a truck load was delivered to the farm. Most interesting.

[Ausglock]

Roo rib fillet marinated in red wine is bloody nice.
Roo tail soup is good.

[Avenger442]

There are a lot of people here that will not eat deer meat. Because they live in the wild, and it is basically against the law to have as live stock for commercial meat where I live, their meat often has what we call a wild flavor to it. It can be marinated, like Trevor mentioned with roo, to remove much of that wild flavor. A friend of ours does roast marinated in a homemade concoction that I have the recipe for somewhere. The loin is especially good cooked over an open fire with hickory wood. Good camp meat. I personally do not have a problem with that flavor and my taste buds. But my wife says I will eat anything that doesn't eat me first.:bigsmyl2:

I've never had it but sounds like croc meat is like our alligator meat. I have tried it several times. I've eaten snake, frog, turtle, snail and several other things not found on menus in most of our restaurants. Liked the frog and alligator best out of these.

[Ausglock]

I've eaten Roo, Emu, Croc, Black snake, Wallaby, Goanna, Camel, Buffalo, Cockatoo and Galah.
Not eaten Drop Bear... Those ******** eat you...lol

[dikman]

Cockatoo and Galah? Wouldn't have thought there's much meat in them. Roo is tricky to cook, being so lean, if it's overcooked just a bit it's like leather.
Avenger, that comparison sounds interesting, look forward to the results.

[Ausglock]

Cockatoo and Galah? Wouldn't have thought there's much meat in them. Roo is tricky to cook, being so lean, if it's overcooked just a bit it's like leather.
Avenger, that comparison sounds interesting, look forward to the results.

Was up the NT years ago. Old mate soaked them in brine for a day and wrapped them in foil. Wasn't bad.

[Stephen Cohen]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4206859]Trevor
Do you guys eat roo over there?

Hi Avenger,
I tried Roo meat in a restaurant up in Queensland. It arrived on my plate, still kicking raw.
I was told that this is best way to eat this stuff. I could not get myself to eat it so raw. I asked that my meat be cooked a little more. They did that for me. When I tried to eat it, I would have needed steel teeth to grind the meat. It was like old boot leather, and had a strange odour. It really turned me off the stuff. Some people swear by Roo meat and eat it very rare, as it is claimed as being very high in protein and very low in fat. It is supposedly/allegedly very good for you. But for me, sorry, but cant face it. That experience really did not convince me to eat such healthy food.
I did eat Crocodile, and was very tasty. The meat came from commercial Crocodile farm where they were raising them for skin export to France and other places. The Crocks were being fed Chicken carcasses and not commercially used other Chicken parts. We were there at the time when a truck load was delivered to the farm. Most interesting.

Those who tell you this Joe, are bloody lazy or ignorant Cooks, I have sent many steaks back with the offer to show the cook how to do it.

[Stephen Cohen]

Trevor
Do you guys eat roo over there?

Slide and I are working on something as a comparison HT to PC in my .308 rifle. I've got about two weeks before I can shoot them so will try to do a "FOX News" unbiased report then. Going to try and keep everything close to the same on both bullets so it will not be apples to oranges. Will check speeds, SD and accuracy. Plan is to load 25 of each. Which will give me five groups of five for each. If anyone comes up with anything else to check put it here and I will try to do it, too.

Those of us who are old enough to remember what hunger was like, grew rather fond of roo, sure beats snake and lizard I can tell you.

[Stephen Cohen]

Was up the NT years ago. Old mate soaked them in brine for a day and wrapped them in foil. Wasn't bad.

From memory the correct way to cook them was boil them with a large stone, and when the stone become soft you ate the stone and threw the Galah away.

[Ausglock]

Ha... yep heard that one.
The old Abo that was doing the cooking did a bloody good job of it.
My Grandfathers survived during the 1920's on Roo and underground Mutton. The odd woody or black duck as well. Dripping rather than butter.

[flybyjohn]

Help. Was wondering if you all could help me here. I am using the powder red copper hitek and mixing and applying as directed. I mix 103 grains powder to 33ml acetone. I am in a cool dry environment and bullets are completely dry before cooking. I cook in a convection oven pid controlled. The temp thermo couple is right below the middle of the tray in the oven. Baking for 11 to 12 minutes depending on the amount of bullets. Coats are light especially the first at 4 ml to about 5 lbs of bullets. Putting on 4 light coats. Sized after last coat. Bullets are passing the wipe test and the smash test. So are my bullets failing or is the hitec coating failing and what should I do about my problem. Here are some pictures.

208134208135

After first light coat.
208136
Oven
208137208138
Solution mixer
208139
Finished sized bullets.
208144208145

Any advice?

[Ausglock]

It isn't the coating. Its the Alloy. Looks to be too soft.
What are you using?

[flybyjohn]

Water quenched coww hardness checked at about 18-19 bhn. The Ingots ring when dropped or tapped together.

[flybyjohn]

This bullet was a bhn 8.
208164

[Lakehouse2012]

This bullet was a bhn 8.
208164Is that bullet recovered after being shot, or did you press is through like you were slugging the barrel?

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[flybyjohn]

It was caught after being fired. Caught in 6" pvc pipe that was stuffed with plastic bags. The bags stop the bullet with no damage to it. The bullet skidded on the rifling and gas got beside it and melted some of the lead.

[Lakehouse2012]

It was caught after being fired. Caught in 6" pvc pipe that was stuffed with plastic bags. The bags stop the bullet with no damage to it. The bullet skidded on the rifling and gas got beside it and melted some of the lead.Ok, so what sign do you have that a failure took place? Is there any lead on the barrel? I have caught several of my hiteks and if you have the boolit diameter tight to the bore, what your seeing wouldnt be too unusual. Id expect that the coating might come off from the lands of the barrel.

Also- any idea what the velocity is of these shots?

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[dikman]

I've recovered nearly 1000 kgs of range scrap from my pistol range and virtually all of it is commercial stuff and appears to be Hi-Tek. I've examined a lot of them and they've all shown the same signs of rifling "cutting" the coating. If they're shooting ok and there's no leading then I wouldn't worry.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have never seen this on any recovered Hi-Tek coated cast, I have seen it when I slugged a 303 barrel from the muzzle end, I wonder is the rifling at chamber end a bit sharp and cutting into the cast and removing coating. Just a thought.

[ioon44]

Help. Was wondering if you all could help me here. I am using the powder red copper hitek and mixing and applying as directed. I mix 103 grains powder to 33ml acetone. I am in a cool dry environment and bullets are completely dry before cooking. I cook in a convection oven pid controlled. The temp thermo couple is right below the middle of the tray in the oven. Baking for 11 to 12 minutes depending on the amount of bullets. Coats are light especially the first at 4 ml to about 5 lbs of bullets. Putting on 4 light coats. Sized after last coat. Bullets are passing the wipe test and the smash test. So are my bullets failing or is the hitec coating failing and what should I do about my problem. Here are some pictures.

208134208135

After first light coat.
208136
Oven
208137208138
Solution mixer
208139
Finished sized bullets.
208144208145



Any advice?


In the cast bullet thread you stated

"Here is a picture of the chamber and lead. I KNOW BEFORE ANYBODY SAYS ANYTHING that the barrel has a flaw. It is being sent back today to get looked at."

You might want to get the barrel replaced before worrying about the coating.

[flybyjohn]

Yes the flaw is in the groves of the barrel and are not removing any of the coating. The coating is only coming off of where the lands ride the bullet. I brought this over here thinking that if it did not turn out to be a cast bullet problem, them maybe it was a hitek problem. The guys in this forum I would imagine are very experienced with hitek and wanted to know if they have seen this before or if they had a solution to it. Here is the lead into the rifling. I don't think it is sharp by any means.

208188208189

I would just like to know if I am doing something wrong or if the different color coatings act differently. I read that the red copper is a higher build powder than some of the others and wondered if it was just as flexible as the others.

[flybyjohn]

I am not trying to disk Hitek, I really want to use it. I don't have the desire to even start lubing with wax,,,ever. I just want to figure out why this does this on my 9mm and not on my 45.

[popper]

Looks like the coating is pretty dry on a couple coats. Has that gritty look which may come off when firing. Did you size after the last coat? That bore part of the coating should show wear, not loss of coating from chipping. 45 is low pressure, 9 is high. Use faster powder or hotter load.

[flybyjohn]

Boy if I poured them out of the mixing bowl any sooner then the bullet coating drips all over the place. The mixing container residue is still plenty runny when I pour out the bullets now. I can guaranty you that they are not too dry when poured out. they actually look really wet and shiny. Once the solvent evaporates they get a bit of a rough surface. Maybe it is just this color. Has anybody else used this Red Copper and have some good up close pictures of the finish product. All these pictures were taken after they were sized after final coat.

The bullet speed coming out of the barrel that has enough energy to cycle the action is between 950 and 970 fps. I really don't see how moving the bullet any faster will prevent the coating from coming off where the lands are riding the bullet. If anything, increasing the velocity will only create more friction and heat where the lead is exposed and melt more lead to the barrel.

"That bore part of the coating should show wear"

I don't thing that is entirely true. If this coating is doing what it is supposed to do, than little wear should be showing on the whole bullet. Here is a bullet captured that was shot at a velocity to low to cycle the action. I don't know how slow as I was shooting it into the bullet catcher and not over the chrony.

208210

Notice that the coating under the land on this bullet shows very little wear also. It is clearly imprinted by the land but the coating under the land is very similar looking to the coating under the groove portion in the other bullet portion.

High pressure, low pressure...I would assume the if the bullet has a good gas seal, high or low pressure, and no gasses are coming around the base, that the coating should stick and deform with the bullet at the velocities I am pushing them. The ramp into the lands looks smooth enough to not cut the coating off. It appears as though friction is removing the coating from these bullets as all the fired bullets show above are fired from the same barrel just at different velocities. The bullet showing gas checking was a softer alloy bullet that skidded and did not have a good gas seal.

[popper]

208224
These were green coated hitek, 2 coats, recovered from a rock pile. ~950 fps. The whitish area is the remaining coating. I've got the gold powder which like the red copper has metallic particles in it. your pic above looks better but still skidding.

[HI-TEK]

PM Sent to flybyjohn

[Stephen Cohen]

I use Red Copper as you do flybyjohn. I cast for myself and my brother, he has a 45/70 rifle and a 460 SW revolver, I cast for my 458 WM in 5 different weights, my 375 Whelen in 2 weights, 357 Maximum in 3 weights with no problems at all. My finished coating looks pretty much as your pics show. I agree your barrel may not be shaving lead as I thought, but I would retry when you get that barrel replaced and go from there. I would not be surprised if a new barrel cured the problems. Regards Stephen.

[flybyjohn]

Just because, last night I drilled a hole in the base of a 9mm case, loaded a bullet and chambered it in the barrel. I used a brass rod to pound the bullet through the bore. Here is what I got. The one with little to no hitek missing is the 11.5 BHN and the one that is missing a little coating is the 18.5 BHN bullet.
208254208255208256
I wanted to see if there was maybe a cutting edge or something I couldn't see that was shaving the bullet. Well there isn't, not at pounding speed that is. Maybe at a higher speed the lead might shear.

[Stephen Cohen]

That was clever flybyjohn and shows there is lead being displaced into the grease groove, I honestly think your experiment has made me lean even more to it being a barrel problem, the softer cast was able to be pounded though with what I believe was less resistance which allowed the coating to do its job however the harder cast resisted and the rough barrel sheared the coating off. This is all speculation on my part but until that barrel is replaced I would not point the blame to coating or anything you have done. I have driven the Lee 125gr cast at near 2700 fps from my 357 max with no leading and also no accuracy. This problem interests me and I look forward to the solution. Regards Stephen.

[Avenger442]

A couple of months ago there was a question posed on the shorter blog concerning the speed of Hi Tek vs. conventional lubes. Someone had done some testing and noted that all things the same the Hi Tek seemed to be more accurate than LBT Blue. I had done some reading somewhere about Hi Tek vs. a conventional lube and commented that those test said the Hi Tek was able to withstand more speed.

At the end of my comment I posed a question wondering which was faster Hi Tek or powder coating. Slide must have seen my question and offered to powder coat some of my favorite .308 bullets, Lee C309-160R, so I could test them for speed against the Hi Tek. Thanks Slide. After several weeks of mailing bullets to each other and trying to find range time I'm glad to say that I finally can report the following.

I cast about five pounds of the Lee bullets using COWW and tin. BHN is about 13 after two weeks from coating. Mailed about 100 to Slide. Slide's bullets were coated once with a purple PC and mine had my usual three coats of HT. I used what has been one of my favorites the Gold 1035. All bullets were weight matched, 160 grain after coating, within half a grain. Sizing was checked with a micrometer before loading on both HT and PC coated bullets and it was virtually identical. All had gas checks installed.

I started to use my usual Remington cases but noticed that I had already loaded most of them and the others had already been primed except for about 20. Since my prep of the cases might not be safe done on primed cases I decided to use 20 new Winchester cases and 10 Remington. All to be shot in five shot groups according to manufacturer. All were trimmed to the same length. I uniformed the primer hole and de-burred the flash hole. Cases were weight segregated to within a grain. And the 20 Winchester cases all weighed within a grain. The Remington were a bit heavier than the Winchester but within a grain of each other.

Powder was 41.5 grains of H4895 and measured within a tenth of a grain for all loads. My favorite load for this bullet.

Now to the range:

All shots were taken in five shot groups from a lead sled to keep some of my bad shooting habits out of the equation. Distance was 100 yards.

The answer to the question about which is faster is; they are almost identical in speed. Overall average of three five shot groups of PC and three five shot groups of HT was 2530 fps and 2524 fps respectively. Six feet per second is not a significant difference.

One thing that was interesting is while the PC overall speeds, or SD, were a bit closer it didn't produce the best groups. Best group for the PC was 3 ¾ in. for a five shot group with another group 4in. overall. When you took out a flyer in that group it was 1 ½ in. Best five shot group for the HT was 1 ½ in. with another group 4 ½ in. overall. When you took out a flyer in that group it was 1 ¼ in.

I am very very happy to report that neither coating appears to have left any coating or lead in the barrel. May inspect closer, but a couple of passes with a tight dry patch to take some of the fouling out and a view with the bore light in the other end shows nothing in the groves.

Now before all you PC guys get your hackles up, I'm not saying that HT is better than PC. I might could work with the load and maybe a powder change to get the PC to do 1 ½ in. but that was not the purpose for this test. The purpose of the test and the question about which was faster was answered. All things equal, neither one.

If you want photos of the loaded bullets and targets send me an email address on the PM. I don't post photos here. May send some to Slide and he can post.

[slide]

Good job Avenger! I will pm you my e-mail. I don't post photos on this site either.

[HI-TEK]

A couple of months ago there was a question posed on the shorter blog concerning the speed of Hi Tek vs. conventional lubes. Someone had done some testing and noted that all things the same the Hi Tek seemed to be more accurate than LBT Blue. I had done some reading somewhere about Hi Tek vs. a conventional lube and commented that those test said the Hi Tek was able to withstand more speed.

At the end of my comment I posed a question wondering which was faster Hi Tek or powder coating. Slide must have seen my question and offered to powder coat some of my favorite .308 bullets, Lee C309-160R, so I could test them for speed against the Hi Tek. Thanks Slide. After several weeks of mailing bullets to each other and trying to find range time I'm glad to say that I finally can report the following.

I cast about five pounds of the Lee bullets using COWW and tin. BHN is about 13 after two weeks from coating. Mailed about 100 to Slide. Slide's bullets were coated once with a purple PC and mine had my usual three coats of HT. I used what has been one of my favorites the Gold 1035. All bullets were weight matched, 160 grain after coating, within half a grain. Sizing was checked with a micrometer before loading on both HT and PC coated bullets and it was virtually identical. All had gas checks installed.

I started to use my usual Remington cases but noticed that I had already loaded most of them and the others had already been primed except for about 20. Since my prep of the cases might not be safe done on primed cases I decided to use 20 new Winchester cases and 10 Remington. All to be shot in five shot groups according to manufacturer. All were trimmed to the same length. I uniformed the primer hole and de-burred the flash hole. Cases were weight segregated to within a grain. And the 20 Winchester cases all weighed within a grain. The Remington were a bit heavier than the Winchester but within a grain of each other.

Powder was 41.5 grains of H4895 and measured within a tenth of a grain for all loads. My favorite load for this bullet.

Now to the range:

All shots were taken in five shot groups from a lead sled to keep some of my bad shooting habits out of the equation. Distance was 100 yards.

The answer to the question about which is faster is; they are almost identical in speed. Overall average of three five shot groups of PC and three five shot groups of HT was 2530 fps and 2524 fps respectively. Six feet per second is not a significant difference.

One thing that was interesting is while the PC overall speeds, or SD, were a bit closer it didn't produce the best groups. Best group for the PC was 3 ¾ in. for a five shot group with another group 4in. overall. When you took out a flyer in that group it was 1 ½ in. Best five shot group for the HT was 1 ½ in. with another group 4 ½ in. overall. When you took out a flyer in that group it was 1 ¼ in.

I am very very happy to report that neither coating appears to have left any coating or lead in the barrel. May inspect closer, but a couple of passes with a tight dry patch to take some of the fouling out and a view with the bore light in the other end shows nothing in the groves.

Now before all you PC guys get your hackles up, I'm not saying that HT is better than PC. I might could work with the load and maybe a powder change to get the PC to do 1 ½ in. but that was not the purpose for this test. The purpose of the test and the question about which was faster was answered. All things equal, neither one.

If you want photos of the loaded bullets and targets send me an email address on the PM. I don't post photos here. May send some to Slide and he can post.

Avenger & Slide,
Thank you both very much for your efforts. It is greatly appreciated.
I am sending you both a PM.
Hi-Tek

[HI-TEK]

Good job Avenger! I will pm you my e-mail. I don't post photos on this site either.


Hi Slide
please send me your email as well
Joe

[TonyN]

At least you guys can get your Coating to work properly. I have a house oven for coating and at 12 min at 400F I have complete rub off. I have 2 oven Thermometers I know for sure it's At 400. I'm using indoor Range lead.

[Grmps]

Avenger442's photos

Bullet Photos PC vs HT
https://i.imgur.com/C8dVPJ7.jpg.

HT vs PC HT target 1
https://i.imgur.com/Vtqvecw.jpg

HT vs PC HT target 2
https://i.imgur.com/dvP8Tze.jpg

HT vs PC PC target 1
https://i.imgur.com/k2yY9wk.jpg

HT vs PC Pc target 2
https://i.imgur.com/pmS80gh.jpg

[slide]

Thanks Grmps!!

[Grmps]

You are most welcome slide



At least you guys can get your Coating to work properly. I have a house oven for coating and at 12 min at 400F I have complete rub off. I have 2 oven Thermometers I know for sure it's At 400. I'm using indoor Range lead.

My guess is your coating is not completely/100% dry before baking (use a fan)
and/or your using to much coating (use less than 1 mil per pound swirl 15 seconds)

[dikman]

Tony, sounds like you have the heating side sorted out, so I agree with Grmps, there's not much else it could be (assuming your lead is clean when it's coated). I just did approx. 1350 rounds of .38, 2 coats 14 batches (recycled range scrap) using my little non-convection oven. I'm pretty slack and don't measure the coating I just give a little squirt into the bucket of boolits ([smilie=1:) and I had no failures, so it's not that difficult once you understand the process - but thin coats are important.

[slide]

I have to go 15 minutes on mine. I know that sounds like too much time but my color and the coating is best at that time. Temp hangs around the 400 f mark.

[dikman]

Slide, might depend on the oven? I do just under 2 kg at a time and my little oven heats up pretty quick, so I've found 10 mins works fine, I guess a bigger oven will have a slower re-heat time. At the end of the day it's a matter of figuring out, by trial-and-error, just what your particular setup needs to work (as we've both found out).

[slide]

Exactly, every situation is different. Not telling how many batches went back in the pot before I settled on what I am doing now. Different ovens , different electrical systems, just got to keep trying until you get it.

[TonyN]

I keep a close eye on my thermometers in the oven. I pulled a bullet at 12 min and it wiped off on the acetone test. I'm using a house size oven to do all my baking. If been doing PC but want this Hi_Tek to workout. I don't know how people get away with 8 to 10 min. I make sure the temp stays where it should. I use 1ML per lb. I had a convection toaster oven with a PID and it didn't work either. I will try 15 min. But I would like to see it at shorter timing.

[slide]

I don't know what to suggest to you. We have been down this road before. Just keep trying different things. Hopefully you will hit on the answer.

[Avenger442]

We would really like to help you get it sorted out, too. You seem to have had more trouble than most trying to use Hi Tek. I thought you had it back in February and March when you had success with the Glock. There is obviously something wrong since so many have had the product work. We just can't determine what. After reading post since January I'm quite at a loss as to what we might suggest to help. I thought since we had not seen you post for a while that you had gotten it sorted out. I guess not. Best advice I can give is to find someone close to you that has had the product work and offer them a dinner to come over and help. Looks like some onsite CSI and Q&A is the only thing to do.

You can see under my avatar where I am. And I love to eat.

[sierra1911]

TonyN,
I'd recommend placing one of your thermometers in the middle of your baking tray closely surrounded by the cold boolits. Monitor that thermometer and don't remove boolits from oven until that thermometer has reached 400F and remained at 400F for 4 or 5 minutes. My understanding of the coating is that boolit metal temperature must reach and remain at the coating's curing temperature for a few minutes.

Also, I'd recommend trying a known alloy from Rotometals or a similar supplier to ensure that the problem isn't being caused by contaminants in your range lead.

[dikman]

How much is wiping off? Just a little or lots? Do they pass the smash test? Can you find a bit of pure lead to try?
This is quite perplexing.

As for the 10 mins. I use, as I said I reckon it comes down to the oven as mine, being smaller than yours, heats up a lot quicker so recovers quicker from the door being opened. At least, that's my reasoning.

[Grmps]

Try baking @ 400° until the coating changes color (they will still be good to shoot ) then back off until they don't change color

[HI-TEK]

At least you guys can get your Coating to work properly. I have a house oven for coating and at 12 min at 400F I have complete rub off. I have 2 oven Thermometers I know for sure it's At 400. I'm using indoor Range lead.

Tony N
Just a few things;
1. Even if your oven is showing air as being at 400F, that does not automatically guarantee that the heat in the internal air is being efficiently transferred into your load of alloy.
I will try to explain; I had a guy build a flow through conveyor oven. Plenty of heating elements top and bottom of a wire conveyor. With air inside his oven, the thermometer showed 405F.
He placed a tray onto conveyor and it travelled through oven over 12 minutes.
When tray emerged, alloy at edges was molten metal, and alloy in centre of tray was not baked.
In short, measuring air temperature at a specific point does not guarantee all is well.
I suspect, that you are really not heating your load of alloy to allow proper cure.

2. Air is a very poor conductor of heat. To get heat from hot air inside your oven to transfer into your load, and evenly, you really need a cyclone air circulation inside the oven. This air circulation then forces air movement that comes into contact with your alloy, many, many, many times, which then has result of transferring the heat rapidly and evenly into your product at a very much faster rate. Also, you do not get hot and cold spots in the oven that causes some to be over baked and under baked in same load.

3. Time in oven matters.
The times being suggested as being adequate time for cure, is based upon ideal conditions, where the oven has cyclone air circulation, and adequate capacity to handle the load of alloy being baked.
Unfortunately, every oven has its own quirks. Even same brand and model can vary greatly with performance, so user has to experiment to determine ideal baking conditions and time for his particular equipment with same load.
If oven has poor internal air circulation, this will also cause similar problems you seem to be experiencing.
If coating is removed with solvent after bake cycle, the alloy had not reached correct temperature. It is as simple as that.

My suggestion, which I have made previously is, you test bake only a few, say a dozen or so.
At 10 minute, take out 2, cool and test.
At 12 minute, take out 2 more, cool and test.
At 14 minutes take out 2 more, cool and test.
Keep doing this, until you do not get any wipe off with solvent, and then test with smash test.

This way, you will determine how a small batch will take to correctly bake in your specific oven

If you then load an increased amount into your oven, the baking time will require increasing, to get same results, as you now have a larger weight of alloy that requires heating.

To determine how much longer you need to bake with a larger load, say at after 12 minutes, take out 2 , cool, solvent test, and repeat every 2 minutes, until you get a pass with solvent wipe off.

[ioon44]

I keep a close eye on my thermometers in the oven. I pulled a bullet at 12 min and it wiped off on the acetone test. I'm using a house size oven to do all my baking. If been doing PC but want this Hi_Tek to workout. I don't know how people get away with 8 to 10 min. I make sure the temp stays where it should. I use 1ML per lb. I had a convection toaster oven with a PID and it didn't work either. I will try 15 min. But I would like to see it at shorter timing.

This may have been answered before.
Are you using a solid tray like a cookie sheet or a 1/4" wire mesh tray which would give better air circulation?

[benellinut]

Tony,

Even though I have yet to get a chance to make a first run with HiTek I've followed the two threads closely and had a few thoughts I'd throw out there. If I'm off base then someone please say so but if there is a chance it will help I'd feel bad if I held back. Again, if I'm off base please speak up and let me know, I don't want to add misleading info to the thread, I'd rather be told I'm wrong and delete the info rather then leave it here and mislead future readers.

With a regular house/stove oven, because we have a self cleaning oven my wife refuses to line the bottom with tin foil as a liner to catch drippings, every time she cooks a big turkey we always end up with some of the drippings in the bottom, along with that is a lot of grease. We have always had self cleaning ovens so she just runs it through the cycle to clean it but all that does is bake a really high temperatures to burn away any spillage leaving ash in the bottom to wipe out with a wet paper towel. During that high temp baking that grease first boils and becomes vapors coating the inside (mostly the roof/top panel, hot air rises) of the oven, I can stand there, watch and smell the burning grease smoke rise from the vents, she's the reason I spent the money on an expensive industrial range hood vented outside..... During the next few uses of the oven I can taste a bit of that burnt grease in anything she bakes. So.... I have to wonder, is or was your oven contaminated with any grease that could be contaminating your coated bullets? May be worth the effort to strip the elements and racks out, get some oven cleaner and clean the hell out of the entire inside. If by the odd chance this is an issue your going to chase your tail trying to solve the problem, never solve it and end up concluding HiTek doesn't work.....

The other thing I was wondering, is it a convection oven? If not your going to have cold and hot spots inside it.

Was it once a stove you stripped down to just the oven? Did you remove any insulation? If you striped it down, removing panels will be the same as removing insulation, adding some more can't hurt, just make sure it's high temp insulation.

Last, Don't forget Aussie's idea to lay a few fire bricks in the bottom to help hold an even temp and bring it back up faster once the door is open.

[Avenger442]

I was sitting here reading Joe's last post and had a good illustration of why the air needs to be circulated well. We have been having some moderately cold weather down to 20s F at night. Even had two inches of snow last week. We have electric heat pump type heat and a backup propane fire place that has been on for about an hour. Heat pump is off. I was sitting here on the couch reading and looked at the thermometer sitting on the table next to me. It read 72 F. Got up and turned the ceiling fan on. Temperature now, about 5 minutes later, reads 77 F. That's a five degree change in the air temp from the ceiling air mixed with the air near the floor.

Air circulation may or may not be Tony's problem. It is something that has been stressed over and over if you want consistent color in the tray. You can, and I have, get bullets that the coating will not rub off of without it. But to make sure, you will have to do a very intensive cook. Ones in hottest part of the oven will be darker.

Tony
Offer still open for onsite Q&A. I like steak but will eat hamburgers:bigsmyl2:.

[benellinut]

I was sitting here reading Joe's last post and had a good illustration of why the air needs to be circulated well. We have been having some moderately cold weather down to 20s F at night. Even had two inches of snow last week. We have electric heat pump type heat and a backup propane fire place that has been on for about an hour. Heat pump is off. I was sitting here on the couch reading and looked at the thermometer sitting on the table next to me. It read 72 F. Got up and turned the ceiling fan on. Temperature now, about 5 minutes later, reads 77 F. That's a five degree change in the air temp from the ceiling air mixed with the air near the floor.

Air circulation may or may not be Tony's problem. It is something that has been stressed over and over if you want consistent color in the tray. You can, and I have, get bullets that the coating will not rub off of without it. But to make sure, you will have to do a very intensive cook. Ones in hottest part of the oven will be darker.

Tony
Offer still open for onsite Q&A. I like steak but will eat hamburgers:bigsmyl2:.

Good point, in this old house we have nine foot ceilings on the main floor. I put ceiling fans in the rooms we use most and in the winter months hit the "reverse" switch on the fan and run them on the slowest setting, we don't feel any breeze but it pushes that warm air down and really does make a big difference. Get up on a step ladder and see how much warmer it is with your head next to your ceiling and see for yourself.

Luckily we have baseboard heat and cheap(er) electric here, with the kids grown and gone leaving just the wife and I we only turn heat on the rooms we use. More then half the house we leave the heat off, the entire upstairs is never heated. When they built this old 1890's house they put doors at every doorway which allows the stairway to be closed off because they use to do the same thing when they first heated it with stoves, funny how some old ways come back around to still be very useful today.

[popper]

Second biggest reason I've changed to cooking on a hot plate (with ceramic tile on top to keep temp even). First is I mostly do rifle and it's easier to stand up without dominoes. Coating cooks from inside out, never gets too hot. I did check with thermocouple. Conduction cooking vs convection. I use a thin steel plate covered with NSAF on top of the tile. just pick up with pliers and trade for the next or drop in H2O for H.T.

[TonyN]

I did 5 lbs of projectiles for 15 min. And when I did the wipe test the area tested and some wipe off and some didn't wipe off. So there where some coating that sticked and some of the area the wiped off.

[TonyN]

Did 2nd coat and now had zero wipe off. The coating appered to be for of a shinny and really slick looking and feeling.

[Grmps]

Sounds like you needed more time with that oven. As previously mentioned, you may want to look into some fire brick of something that retains heat to put in the bottom of your oven. If the coating didn't start getting darker, I'd bake it for another couple minutes.
How was the smash test?

[dikman]

If some wiped off and some didn't I'd say you've just confirmed what some have been saying and Joe explained - you've got very uneven heating in your oven.

[TonyN]

No.. The little wipe off is from the first coat. I tested like 3 from all over the wire mesh. The second coat was the one that passed the wipe test.

[TonyN]

I did 3 coats total and I'm getting zero wipe off with 15 min. Bake time. I did the smash test and had zero chipping. If the first coat had some wipe off would that mean the 2 other coats will be ok?

[slide]

Shoot some and see how it goes. I wouldn't be concerned about a little wipe off.

[Avenger442]

I did 3 coats total and I'm getting zero wipe off with 15 min. Bake time. I did the smash test and had zero chipping. If the first coat had some wipe off would that mean the 2 other coats will be ok?

Tony
I have gotten a small amount of wipe off with some of the colors. I've been told that sometimes there is too much of the color added in the mix and that is what causes this. All of them shot just fine as far as accuracy and no lead in the barrel. But it has been on all of the coats not just the first. It sounds like to me that the first coat was not cured. Joe or Trevor can correct me on this but, it looks like to me that if the second and third coat smash test and wipe OK the coating is bound to the lead and cured. Since this stuff cures with heat, the additional heat for the second and third coat probably just finished curing the first coat.

A failed wipe test is when the coating comes off down to the lead when rubbed with solvent for about thirty seconds. If you didn't see that on the first coat your OK. To show you what it looks like take a bullet that has been coated but not baked and rub it with solvent. It will not take thirty seconds to take the uncured coating off down to the lead. Now that's a failed wipe test.

I know you are shooting Glock and I can understand the need to get this right because of the type of rifling. Even though I don't own one I have read enough to know what the problem is with a stock Glock barrel. I think you said you had a Wolf replacement barrel on one so that shouldn't be an issue with it. Would like to note that we have post from multiple people on this blog that have shot Hi Tek in stock Glock barrels with no problem. But since I don't own one I cannot say I have had that experience.

[HI-TEK]

I did 3 coats total and I'm getting zero wipe off with 15 min. Bake time. I did the smash test and had zero chipping. If the first coat had some wipe off would that mean the 2 other coats will be ok?

Tony N,
I have to assume at this stage, that your oven has adequate heating capacity, is reasonably insulated, and has reasonable air circulation/fan operated, and your temperatures are accurate and adequate to cause correct cure. You must concentrate on your alloy temperatures, instead of oven temperatures.
The coated alloy loaded into your oven must get to 180C and stay there, or above, at least 3 minutes afterwards.
How long it takes for your alloy to get to required 180C minimum, will greatly depend on your oven, and loads you place into that oven.
I suggest, you invest in an Infra Red Laser thermometer. Pointing that onto your alloy will tell you actual alloy temperatures.

At this stage, I want to concentrate on your coating drying process of your first coat.

I hate to be abrupt, but did you take any notice of what I advised to you???
To determine what is going on, you need to do exactly as I advised you recently.
I cannot understand, why you would apply multiple coats on the first coat when first coat did not pass tests?
I again repeat, do not coat over first coat, until it passes all tests.

You really are making a rod for your own back, by complicating things, not knowing if coating has bonded or not, and you seem to concentrate on wipe off as your important test parameter, and, multiple coat, when you have no idea if first coat was successful or not..

DO NOT MULTIPLE COAT UNTIL YOU HAVE A TOTAL PASS WITH FIRST COAT

You need to find out, what is going on, using advice I have supplied previously and repeated as below.

1.Coat
2. Dry well, and warm air dry if required, to ensure this first coat is TOTALLY DRY.
3. When you think this first coat is dry, take only a few and bake it.
If after bake it passes all tests, only then cook the rest.
If it fails, continue drying.
After say half hour further drying, again, only test bake a few.
Keep on test baking a few each time, until first coat passes all tests.
ONLY THEN bake the rest of the bulk.
When bulk has been baked with first coat, and passes all tests, ONLY THEN coat a second time.

[Ausglock]

Notice I'n not saying anything on this??

When people ask for help, but ignore the help given.......................

Lovin my refurbished STI TruBor....209439

[wlkjr]

I'm wondering if maybe there is some kind of contamination going on. Right before I coat mine, I put about 5-6 pounds of boolits in a small plastic coffee can and pour in some fresh acetone, shake really well, then drain into another container. After draining well I spread them on my wire cooking tray and put under a fan for about 5 minutes to dry. Next I dump them into my plastic mixing bowl and coat them, dump them back onto the mesh cooking tray and put back under the fan for the drying process.
I then repeat for the other 3 trays since I rotate through 4 trays at a time. I reuse the acetone from the first batch to rinse the other 3 batches and dispose of it after the 4th use. The used acetone usually has a slightly discolored tint to it.

[Avenger442]

Yea, I did notice and understood why.
Dennis

[tech54K]

This is amazing. I am just new in powder coating. I must say I saw the same coat material used by Reliant (http://www.reliantfinishingsystems.com/powder-coating-equipment/powder-coating-ovens/). Good job!

[Grmps]

I have a clean towel I use to dump the boolits on when casting, from there they go into clean plastic bags for storage or clean containers to be coated in the near future. When the towel starts looking dirty I re-fold it and change what part of the towel I'm using.

1 possible cause of contamination is water quenching in dirty water while casting which is useless if you're PCing or HiTek coating, you don't gain anything because you bake out anything the quenching gains and you risk contamination. and doesn't matter much if your lubbing.

For you lot down under :)
https://i.imgur.com/U4A1NTo.jpg

[slide]

tech54k. I am lost brother. Enlighten me on what you are talking about?

[dikman]

And I thought it was just me. When I looked up the link Reliant make (very) large PC ovens and I wondered what it had to do with Hi-Tek coating.:veryconfu

[Avenger442]

This is amazing. I am just new in powder coating. I must say I saw the same coat material used by Reliant (http://www.reliantfinishingsystems.com/powder-coating-equipment/powder-coating-ovens/). Good job!

Welcome to the thread Tech54K. But we do need you to clarify what you posted.

[snscasting]

Is anybody out there using a natural gas or LP fueled oven?

[Avenger442]

Is anybody out there using a natural gas or LP fueled oven?

Just out of curiosity, are you speaking of a house hold oven like we use to cook food? Propane same as natural gas fired except changed pilot orifice.

I'll have to admit I had not though of or remember anyone asking this question. The only thing I have used propane for is smelting wheel weights and other raw lead resources. And that over a propane fired stove top. But I don't see why you couldn't use a gas fired household type of oven as long as you were able to regulate the temperature inside the oven (if you care about color, otherwise you just need to know they are cured). And you made sure the bullets were completely dry of solvent. Wouldn't want to set them on fire to cure coating:bigsmyl2:. I remember some using a conveyor type oven. Most of those are gas fired.

Joe
What do you think? Anything about a coated and dry bullet in a gas fired oven?
And just ,again, out of curiosity, could you set one on fire to cure it?:kidding:

[snscasting]

I'm looking into walk-in type ovens, that are safe for solvents. Similar to this: http://fobinc.com/product/Ovens/Walk-In/Walk-In_Oven/7310

They move a lot of air and do vent to the outside. I've read that gas ovens have slightly higher humidity as a byproduct of the gas...

I'm guessing it will work, but would hate to drop 15 grand on one and it not work well!

[nh7792]

I'm looking into walk-in type ovens, that are safe for solvents. Similar to this: http://fobinc.com/product/Ovens/Walk-In/Walk-In_Oven/7310

They move a lot of air and do vent to the outside. I've read that gas ovens have slightly higher humidity as a byproduct of the gas...

I'm guessing it will work, but would hate to drop 15 grand on one and it not work well!

And I thought my bakers pride commercial convection oven was a monster.

[HI-TEK]

Joe
What do you think? Anything about a coated and dry bullet in a gas fired oven?
And just ,again, out of curiosity, could you set one on fire to cure it?:kidding:

Avenger442,
My only experience with gas fired ovens were in connection with investigation of a gas burner using liquefied gas, where the burned and air were pre-mixed using an external mixing chamber, and the temperature controlled hot gas was ducted into an oven which was internally fan forced/circulated to mix air inside oven evenly. They work OK, but because you are mixing burnt gas and diluting with cool air, you use a lot of energy and loose a lot of energy, as the oven is a flow through air system.
The hot air that is made and is being forced into oven, a very large volume/percentage of it, and the heat it contains, is lost in exhaust continuously.
It is not so much the moisture that will cause a problem with coating & baking, it is energy losses and increased running costs with exhausting produced hot gas.
Because air flow is continuous throughput, and flame and air dilution mixing box/temperature control (flameproof) is externally located from oven, (with positive air displacement) traces of solvent in oven should not become a problem as it is, or should be, as the vapours are continuously vented and diluted through exhaust and not towards heat source.
Best way is, to discuss with an oven manufacturer who should be aware of requirements.

In terms of coating and flammability aspects, the coating resists burning and should withstand 250 C before major degradation occurs. I have never tried to deliberately burn the coating, and may be an interesting experiment to determine if and when coating will burn. I have seen coating float on top of Molten alloy but I had not seen it burn. From limited view of this recycling, all I recall is that coating simply chars to a powder from what I have seen, and is removed as waste from molten alloy..

Sorry I really cannot advise further.

[slide]

You might send a pm to Donnie. He has done the hitek on a commercial basis. I don't know what kind of ovens he used?

[Avenger442]

I'm looking into walk-in type ovens, that are safe for solvents. Similar to this: http://fobinc.com/product/Ovens/Walk-In/Walk-In_Oven/7310

They move a lot of air and do vent to the outside. I've read that gas ovens have slightly higher humidity as a byproduct of the gas...

I'm guessing it will work, but would hate to drop 15 grand on one and it not work well!

Man that's a monster oven. And $15,000 you got to be looking at commercial production. And I have no experience with walk in ovens. We used some big ovens in the institutional and commercial kitchens we did. But nothing that big. Isn't this what they use in commercial powder coating? The one you linked to looks like it vents out the top. So most of the moisture would go out the vent along with a lot of heat. I'm not sure that the additional moisture, most of which would vent out the top, would impact the use of the coating. So no help here.

[HI-TEK]

You might send a pm to Donnie. He has done the hitek on a commercial basis. I don't know what kind of ovens he used?

Slide
My limited knowledge on powder coating ovens is, that majority of Powder coatings, generate moisture during curing, (not Hi-Tek powders).
So propane type gas heated ovens, are not a problem with moisture, as there is plenty of moisture generated from powder coated objects.

My rationale with baking Hi-Tek coated objects, is to use heat, in a vented oven system, with internal surface area confined in as smallest space as possible, with cyclonic air circulation, and this small internal surface area transfers heat from smallest volume of heated air into what is being cured.
This I am suggesting is most heat efficient way to bake.
You are essentially, not heating up very large amounts of air, and internal oven components, that cannot efficiently transfer contained heat to baked objects. In small internal volume ovens, you are not venting a lot of heated air from where you have not used up heat from all the internal heated air, that was made for baking..

That is why many chose a wire belt conveyor system, that in comparison, travels through a very small heated compartment that concentrates heat to bake load.

I really cannot envisage gas fired controlled heating not working with such a small conveyor type oven if properly designed.

[dikman]

I've remelted quite a few (:roll:) and yes, you just end up with a dark "sludge" on top which you just scoop off (doesn't smoke or anything, just sits there). I've also baked the Gunmetal at 240C to get a darker colour and it worked ok. The first batch I did, however, I placed the tray in the top position, right under the element and even though it was set for 200C they were ruined and flaked badly. I don't know what temperature it got to right under the element but it was obviously well in excess of 240C!

Using LP gas for heating does produce moisture as a byproduct (personal experience here) so could be an issue in a closed oven. Also, regulating gas to keep an even temperature is a bit more complex than just hooking up a PID.

[snscasting]

Man that's a monster oven. And $15,000 you got to be looking at commercial production. And I have no experience with walk in ovens. We used some big ovens in the institutional and commercial kitchens we did. But nothing that big. Isn't this what they use in commercial powder coating? The one you linked to looks like it vents out the top. So most of the moisture would go out the vent along with a lot of heat. I'm not sure that the additional moisture, most of which would vent out the top, would impact the use of the coating. So no help here.

Yes, it's a commercial powder coating type of oven. I'm sitting on several hundred thousand that need to be coated, and can't coat them fast enough to keep my crew going! I think we are going to move forward and give it a go... fingers crossed! I'll let you all know how it goes when the time comes. Thanks for all the input!

[HI-TEK]

Yes, it's a commercial powder coating type of oven. I'm sitting on several hundred thousand that need to be coated, and can't coat them fast enough to keep my crew going! I think we are going to move forward and give it a go... fingers crossed! I'll let you all know how it goes when the time comes. Thanks for all the input!

SNS Casting
I would like to throw in some suggestions, if you are considering such an oven.
1. Have installed a programmable control system, where you can set a pre-drying temperature, (for example 50C) for a period of time, say 50C for 1 hour or half hour, (manually re-settable time to adequately suit for drying, and then baking)
That way, you use oven to speed up drying process, and also remove moisture and trapped solvent, and then for control after drying stage, to continue to ramp up heat, to heat cure coating load, to set temperatures..
If you have the oven control system, after drying stage, automatically ramp up baking temperature, to get coating to at least 180C or above, and keep it at 180 or above thereafter for at least 3 minutes you can increase output greatly.
2. You must be able to determine just how long it takes, (Time) to heat up a load of metal to say 50C, hold it there for a set time, and then, how long it takes (Time), to get same load to at least 180C-200C.
3. Once you have worked out how long it takes to fully dry a specific load in oven say at 50C. it is important also to find out how long it takes then to raise temperature of same load of metal (not oven temperature) to get the load to a minimum of 180C.
Once you know that time to reach a specific quantity of loaded metal temperature,(not Oven temperatures), you can determine just how long each loaded batch will take from the time you load oven to adequately finish cure.
There are simple inexpensive re-settable programmable controls available, which can be programmed to get what you want to achieve.
The controls I have come across here, can slowly raise temperature to a pre set point, hold it there for a set time, at a specific rate of temperature increase, then control to hold it there for a pre-set time,( Drying time), then, the control ramp up temperature to a second setting, ( curing conditions) and also hold it there for a pre-set time.
Talk to oven manufacturer of your needs. If they wish to communicate with me about this matter, I would be happy to have them make direct contact to discuss.
WARNING
If you load coated alloy, that contains solvent (not room temperature dried first) then all electricals and controls on oven must be flameproof.
The drying stage, oven must be vented well, to reduce possibility of fire and or an explosion from flammable solvent fumes generated during drying.
I hope this helps,
Hi-Tek

[ThaDoubleJ]

Jumping back into the thread again after about 100 pages. Failed the smash test for the first time yesterday. I've overcoated boolits while I was learning and increased their diameter by .008", and they still passed the smash. My most recent batch is the best one I've ever done as far as looks go, actually followed the directions this time, thought I was golden. Whacked three of them with a hammer, got this all three times

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0BzfwlWsoZaPxaTZINno0WXJ3dlk

Where did I go wrong? This is getting frustrating.

10 grams of powder, 1.75oz of acetone, 100 boolits at a time, plenty of dry time, 390 degrees for 9 minutes.

Ok, I'm back again, and my coating attempts have failed again. The 230gr 45s shown below were coated the same as the one in my quote, but baked around 360 degrees for a little over 10 minutes. Failed the smash test. The 40 grain 22s were done with a fresh batch of coating, this time using MEK instead of acetone. Small batch of coating, 6 grams powder to 1 oz MEK. Everything seemed like it was going great, three nice thin coats coming in at .001 to .002 thick, perfect! But no, I suck again. Someone asked to see pictures of the flakes, so I included them on the paper with the boolits. I also dried the boolits ten minutes outside, and then warmed them up on the oven before actually baking them, as recommended. 2 different flavors of coating, 2 different types of thinner, 16 different ways of drying and baking and coating and cooling, no dice. I'm about to fly one of you guys to the states to show me if you can get this stuff to work, because I certainly can't.

Edit: I did realize there's one thing I'm doing differently than before, and that's water quenching. I used to drop the boolits into a box with a towel in it, but I was smooshing a lot of them. I've switched to a large container of water, would that be the cause of my issues?

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1QloBl232FMa5IBd77HTbBnQr3sTGuKfL

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=ThaDoubleJ;4238392]

Hi ThaDouble,

I may be wrong, but it seem to me, with 360F oven temperature, in 10 minutes, you did not get your loaded coated projectiles to at least 180C (354F).
You have to measure your loaded alloy temperature, and do not rely on oven temperature is guideline for correct baking.

The load, must get to at least 180C, and then held there, (or above) for 3 more minutes thereafter.
A temperature reading of hot air in the oven , at a specific point, may not be representative of what is actually happening.
You cannot assume that because you are measuring a certain temperature inside the oven that this is representative of actual conditions throughout the oven and metal loading.

If first coating is dried adequately, heat,..... even if excessively, will not prevent coating bonding.

If you are totally satisfied that your first coat is dry, bake only a few at 400F for 10 minutes.
Take them out, cool, and test.
If it fails, then it was not dry enough. If it passes, only then bake the rest.

Before you apply a second and third coat, make sure first coat passes tests.
Coating over bad first coat, will not fix adhesion problems. You have to get first coat right before you coat again.

Keep in mind, when you put more metal into your oven, it will take longer to get to temperature and cook correctly.
That is why you need to monitor alloy temperature and not oven temperature.

[HI-TEK]

ThaDoubleJ
Just curious, the metal I see in your picture certainly does not look like 92. 6. 2 alloy.
What alloy are you using. The picture seems much too white for Lead. May be it is the light, but am not sure.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Those flakes in my picture are crispy, like corn flakes, you can pinch them and they make a noise and break. Is that normal?

It's the light, and poor focus. Those boolits are wheel weights with a splash of tin thrown in.

[HI-TEK]

Those flakes in my picture are crispy, like corn flakes, you can pinch them and they make a noise and break. Is that normal?
When resin is simply dried, it is crunchy, and will break as it is brittle. It is quite normal

It's the light, and poor focus. Those boolits are wheel weights with a splash of tin thrown in.
AH..HAAAA, you may have answered your own question why the coating may not bond to alloy.
Wheel weights are loaded with other contaminants, and many of those contaminants react with coating and prevent bonding.
You may have a three fold problem.
1. Alloy contamination
2. Not dried enough
3. Not enough heat to correctly cure/bond first coat.

[ThaDoubleJ]

That's troubling. Wheel weights are all I've got, all I've ever used. Any chance it's our crappy water? Tons of calcium in it, maybe it's closing up the pores of the lead when I quench?

[HI-TEK]

That's troubling. Wheel weights are all I've got, all I've ever used. Any chance it's our crappy water? Tons of calcium in it, maybe it's closing up the pores of the lead when I quench?

I suggest following.
Get some Hydrochloric Acid, (Muriatic Acid) as used for cleaning Concrete.
Mix about equal amounts of water with it in a plastic container, and soak some of your cast in this mixture.
USE CARE AND RUBBER GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION IN CASE OF SPLASHES.
After about 10-15 minutes, carefully remove soaked alloy.
Keep acid mixture for re-use if this works.
You must wash and rinse well with running water and dry well. Heat to dry off water to 50C-60C, at least for about 1/2 hour.
Try and re-coat with first coat. Dry this first coat well again at about 50C for at least 1/2 hour.
Then test bake this first coat at 200C for 10 minutes.

My idea/intention is to try to remove any surface contaminants and leave an etch on the surface of alloy as a result as well.
This should significantly improve adhesion, if surface or alloy contaminations are the problem.
Again, do not multiple coat, always test if first coat is bonded before you attempt recoating.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Think I've got a bottle of that stuff somewhere, I'll give it a try. It'll be a while, it's like 11 degrees outside, but I'll check back in.

[benellinut]

I also dried the boolits ten minutes outside, and then warmed them up on the oven before actually baking them, as recommended.


Think I've got a bottle of that stuff somewhere, I'll give it a try. It'll be a while, it's like 11 degrees outside, but I'll check back in.

Are you saying your applying a coat, then taking them outside in the cold weather to dry, then back inside and warming them on the oven before baking? Couldn't chilling them like that then warming the alloy create moisture on the alloy and under the coating?

[HI-TEK]

Think I've got a bottle of that stuff somewhere, I'll give it a try. It'll be a while, it's like 11 degrees outside, but I'll check back in.


AH>>>HAAAA....... another clue. 11 degrees F is minus 12 degrees Celsius.
It is impossible to dry any thing in these conditions unless you use heat well above ambient conditions.
I suggest 45-50C or 110-120 DEGREES F. as an adequate drying condition under the circumstances.

When you coat, during when Acetone is drying, it can chill metal about 5 degrees below ambient.
This chilling effect, and your cold conditions, simply trap moisture inside coating.
The added coldness resulting with alloy chilling by solvent evaporation, the alloy plus coating attracts moisture.
This moisture is trapped within coating. Once a dry skin forms, what moisture that is caught/trapped in the so called dry film, can give you exactly the type of adhesion failures you have experienced.

When this moisture, is heated only to 100C (212F), it expands 1000 times its original volume as steam.. This "steam", that is produced, simply lifts coating off the alloy, and the heat in the oven sets the coating, but it is then not stuck/bonded to the alloy.

Aside from alloy contamination, and possible inadequate drying, I now tend to lean back towards your problems being caused inadequate drying with first coat.

Things are not that complicated. It is simply identifying step by step different things, one step at a time.
What you were doing is coating, coating, and coating, but had failures.
As said many times on this blog, make sure you coat first time, and get a good bond, which passes all tests, before coating again.

[wlkjr]

I live in the sunny south and my shop is climate controlled. I'd volunteer to coat some of yours with mine, but I'm going to be out of town for a month. If you don't get it straightened out within the next month send me a PM and I'll coat some of yours with mine and see how they turn out.

[Grmps]

That's troubling. Wheel weights are all I've got, all I've ever used. Any chance it's our crappy water? Tons of calcium in it, maybe it's closing up the pores of the lead when I quench?

DON'T QUENCH HiTek or PC, It's a waste of time (because you lose any hardness you gain when you bake the coating) AND it's an easy way to contaminate your boolits.

I drop my boolits on a clean towel. Store them in a clean closed container or ziplock's if I'm not coating immediately.
A fan really helps with drying. when 110% sure they are dry warm the tray of boolits on top of your oven for 10 - 20 mins until they are all warm to the touch (this ensures drying and gives you a jump on bake-curing)

1) Keep it clean
2) don't use too much "coating" (less tha 1 mil solution mixed immediately before measuring and applying)
3) don't swirl to long (10-20 seconds if the sound starts to change you've gone to long)
4) make 110% sure coating is dry then pre-warm
5) confirm oven temperature, bake until coating starts to turn dark (they are fine to shoot like this) then back off a couple minutes to confirm complete oven cure
6) test (smash and rub) between coats after boolits are cold BEFORE applying next coat.

[ThaDoubleJ]

It was probably in the low 30s when I started, all done outside. Coated them cold, warmed them on the oven until they felt warm and smelled bad after about ten minutes drying in the cold, then cooked them. Tried to recoat while still a little warm, but it didn't work out every time. I did forget to warm one batch (the third coat) but I was probably already busted at that point. I'll use some of these ideas next time it warms up a bit and see what happens, thanks all.

[Ausglock]

Before baking a tray of bullets, Put you hand on the bullets. Are they warm to the touch?
Yes?? good. Bake away.
No??? bloody well warm them up. A cheap fan heater is what I use in winter here in OZ.
A cold winter here is like 2deg C. about what??? 35 Deg F??

my benchtop convection oven needs 12 minutes at 200 deg C to correctly bake 2.5Kg of bullets.
Any less and they get wipe off. I use a K sensor inside the oven to read temp as any other thermometers are un-reliable.

[HI-TEK]

Before baking a tray of bullets, Put you hand on the bullets. Are they warm to the touch?
Yes?? good. Bake away.
No??? bloody well warm them up. A cheap fan heater is what I use in winter here in OZ.
A cold winter here is like 2deg C. about what??? 35 Deg F??

my benchtop convection oven needs 12 minutes at 200 deg C to correctly bake 2.5Kg of bullets.
Any less and they get wipe off. I use a K sensor inside the oven to read temp as any other thermometers are un-reliable.

From what I have learnt, (again at the very end) with these failures is, that after coating, the coated projectiles were put outside to dry.
Outside temp was from minus 2 to minus 12 Degree Celsius.
Nothing will dry at those conditions.
Any moisture absorbed will turn into ice even inside the coating.
I am totally bewildered with this one...... No wonder he is getting failures.

[Ausglock]

Yep. it isn't rocket science.
water freezes below Zero Deg C. so placing them outside in below Zero obviously will not allow the moisture to dry off.
Then, bringing them into a warm place will cause the ice to melt and become water again.
try and bake this and of course the coating will fail because the trapped moisture is STILL THERE!!!

[Avenger442]

We wish you a happy Jesus' Birthday! And a happy New Year!

For you guys that are having summer and it's 2AM, hope your Christmas is as good as it can be.

Thank you guys for your patience and putting up with us all.

Dennis

[ThaDoubleJ]

Sorry, but I can't attribute this round of failures to temperature. Last attempt it was probably 70 or 80 degrees out, same results. I know it's a 468 page thread, and it's not your job to remember every post, but I've been here 5 or 6 times with failures of one sort or another, and I've never failed the smash test prior to this. I've made the most horrible looking boolits with coating that looked like the surface of the moon and was unevenly 4-8 thousandths thick, and they still passed both the smash and the wipe. The more I think about it, the more I think it's the water quenching that's the problem, it's the only thing I've changed. The water in my town is so bad I won't even let my cat drink it. My guess is that when the boolit hits the water at 500+ degrees, it's somehow coating itself in calcium or some other gunk that's in there, which is making the coating stick to that instead of the lead, or who knows. Like I said, I'm just guessing. Hillbillies on youtube do this, it can't be this hard. Either way, it's 13 degrees right this second, and snowy, so on my next go round once we have a nice day I'll try again and go back do dropping them on something other than water and I'll report back. Just for the record, MEK freezes at -87 degrees C, or negative 125 degrees US, so even at 20 degrees or so here, it'd still dry eventually.

[Grmps]

DON'T QUENCH HiTek or PC, It's a waste of time (because you lose any hardness you gain when you bake the coating) AND it's an easy way to contaminate your boolits.

I drop my boolits on a clean towel. Store them in a clean closed container or ziplock's if I'm not coating immediately.

[Spaceball]

Hi.

Not sure if it has been asked but how long can I leave a power / acetone mix made up before it goes bad?

Thanks

[Ausglock]

The mix will keep for at least 6 months if stored in a cool dark place.

[Grmps]

If the mix has evaporated a bit you can add acetone to re-rejuvenate it.
If I'm not mistaken, it can be used for a longer period of time but the color will deteriorate.
Joe or Trevor can confirm that.

[Spaceball]

Great. Thanks

[dikman]

It can be a bit hit-or-miss. I had some that was maybe 18 months old. I added extra acetone and the bronze still worked ok, although it came out darker, the Gunmetal flaked badly, although in all fairness I think I may not have thinned it enough and the coats were probably too thick, and the Zombie Green still worked.
I figure I was probably pushing it a bit but hey, that's how we learn.

[Avenger442]

Just used some orange/burnt orange that was mixed about six months ago stored in my basement that is mostly cool in the summer. Worked OK as far as coating. But as noted earlier the color was significantly darker. Haven't shot any yet. In the past I have used coatings both liquid based and the powder that have performed at the range after sitting over six months. So I don't expect any problems.


Joe
Is there any reason that I couldn't use the coating with no color in it or maybe just the coating with the metallic and no color? What would you see on a wipe test?

[dikman]

What would you see on a wipe test?
Not a lot if there's no colour.:lol: Maybe it could be called Invisible Colour.:kidding:

[HI-TEK]

Joe
Is there any reason that I couldn't use the coating with no color in it or maybe just the coating with the metallic and no color? What would you see on a wipe test?

Avenger,
the coatings can be used without colour. As some ingredients that become part of the overall performance may also settle/separate.
Some of the Metallics also have their own particular colour, and are also there to
1. mechanically reinforce the baked film,
2. to assist/contribute towards lubrication,
3. improve heat reflectance,
4. improve alloy to bore separation,
5. and improve mechanical strength.
If you remove these, the coating may work OK, but may also have increased resistance when sizing. I cannot predict what will happen with other parameters. It is a suck and see.

After bake, all coatings with or without colour should pass all solvent wipe tests.
The solvent test was specifically aimed at ensuring the a coating was adequately baked before applying subsequent coats.
If baking was not adequate, when trying to coat over this, the solvents contained in next coat will start to act as a paint stripper.
This will cause a mess, lumpy and irregular finish.
The solvent test on its own, will show up under baked coating, as it will act like a paint stripper.
Solvent test is simpler way to show up baking problems, and it wont waste the coating you are trying to apply to an under cured previous coat.

Hope I answered your questions adequately.

[flybyjohn]

Quick question about the heat. I have an oven that I am using a PID temp controller on my oven. I set it for 410 degrees and it swings up past 420 sometimes. I know the bullets have to hit a certain temp for a certain amount of time and extra time cannot hurt the bullet coating but can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet. In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?

[Ausglock]

Your temp is fine.
A higher temp will only darken the baked colour.

My pid controlled converted wall oven has a set point of 200 deg C, but will get to 204 Deg C at the end of the 7 minute bake time. no issue.

[dikman]

In my experience, yes. I have baked Gunmetal at around 460 (to get the colour I wanted) and it worked fine, but my very first batch was directly under the top element and failed miserably. I don't know what the temp was in that position but I figure it was high as the radiant heat from the element didn't have time to circulate before heating the boolits.
At the temps you're talking about there shouldn't be any problems, but why not just set it to 400? Any swing past that will be insignificant.

[HI-TEK]

Quick question about the heat. I have an oven that I am using a PID temp controller on my oven. I set it for 410 degrees and it swings up past 420 sometimes. I know the bullets have to hit a certain temp for a certain amount of time and extra time cannot hurt the bullet coating but can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet. In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?


Your question" can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet.
The Answer is NO.

Aside from making colour darker, extra heat will not affect adhesion. NOT adequate drying combined with using too much first coating affects adhesion.

In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?[/QUOTE]



If your oven goes over 200C (400F), all you have to do is cook for less time.
What is important is not so much oven temperature, but you must monitor loaded alloy temperature.
You only have to get the projectiles to 180C, and once they get to that temperature, it must stay there for another 3 minutes.
A hotter oven gets them to 180C faster.
If your oven is at 420F the projectiles will get to 180C much more quickly, and will over cook making them darker. But this extra baking wont affect adhesion.

[benellinut]

Your question" can extra temperature affect the bullet adhesion on the bullet.
The Answer is NO.

Aside from making colour darker, extra heat will not affect adhesion. NOT adequate drying combined with using too much first coating affects adhesion.

In other words is it better to make sure the oven doesn't go over 400 degrees and just cook the bullet longer rather than have the oven set higher to insure the bullets get cooked good enough in say 15 minutes.

Simple question: Can you bake at too high of a temperature?



If your oven goes over 200C (400F), all you have to do is cook for less time.
What is important is not so much oven temperature, but you must monitor loaded alloy temperature.
You only have to get the projectiles to 180C, and once they get to that temperature, it must stay there for another 3 minutes.
A hotter oven gets them to 180C faster.
If your oven is at 420F the projectiles will get to 180C much more quickly, and will over cook making them darker. But this extra baking wont affect adhesion.

I've seen you repeat the temp of the alloy is the key, got me thinking. I worked as a professional auto tech for 25 years, I have a Fluke multimeter I used for many different uses, one of the functions was the ability to test temperatures with the use of K thermocouple's and an adapter to plug it into the meter. A bulb thermocouple came with the meter I bought, it was handy for testing temps of fluids as well as being able to reach into small places past parts, hoses and wire harness to touch the sides of engines in different spots. This is the one that came with my meter, https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-80TK-Thermocouple-Module/dp/B0023FUI3Y

My thought is, couldn't you drill a hole in the center of a bullet, insert the thermocouple and use it to test alloy temperatures while baking? Why wouldn't this work? You'd want to make the hole that the bulb would just slip into, without force enough to damage the bulb end but you want to make sure the bulb touches the metal and (I would think) with the bulb as near the center of mass as possible. Guess you could get a few thermocouple's make a few probed bullets, set these at different spots on a tray and monitor the temp of the alloy as it bakes, don't need multiple meters, just plug and unplug the different probes in the same meter, maybe monitor one near the center then once it comes to temp check the others and see where they are at, or check them every minuet or two.

This type has a high temp coating on the wire lead and the wire is small and bendable, you can snake the wire in and close an oven door on these, it's how I've checked the oven for the wife when she thought it was off. You can get cheaper thermocouple's but I'd compare them with a good known thermocouple to make sure they are accurate. I wouldn't spend that much on a Fluke brand just for this purpose, but I have bought cheaper K thermocouple's off amazon and I use my Fluke to check those for accuracy before using them in my PDI.

[slide]

That is what I do. I think Ausglock came up with the idea a couple years ago. It works great.!

[benellinut]

Here's a few from Amazon, four channel with the probes, read all four at once, around $30-$34 shipped with Prime. They all look the same with different brand names, probably made at the same Chinese manufacturer. Might order one and do comparison checks with my Fluke, if it's not accurate just return it. Two of these offer a four year protection plan from Square Trade for $6, to me it's worth it with some of these cheap Chinese products.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073P5MZ3J
https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Prime-4-Channel-Thermometer-Thermocouple-200-1372°C/dp/B0142HFA06
https://www.amazon.com/Leaton-Thermometer-Thermocouple-200-1372°C-Batteries/dp/B06XC6T8PX

Last summer I bought a 120 to 12 volt control box to run the LED lights that keeps my flag pole lite all night, I added that Square Trade two year extended protection plan to it for $3. It failed after five months, it was still under the one year factory warranty but it said I'd have to pay the return shipping to ship it back. First I called the 800 number for the protection plan because it said they would cover any return shipping costs, without question the sent me a check for $15. Next I called the manufacture about the failed unit, they asked the model number and my address and said they'd ship a new one out the next day, I asked where they wanted the old one sent and they told me no need to return it. That worked out well...

[JeremiahCarlson]

great . Thanks.....

[Avenger442]

Guys
Slide and I may be working on a new comparison project together. This time in handgun. We are still not sure who is going to do the shooting. Slide lost his place to shoot So if any of you guys live out near him PM him if you can help him out. Kind of new territory for me. I do shoot several handguns. But I probably shoot 10 rounds of rifle for every round of handgun I shoot.

benellinut
Completely off the subject here. But some manufacturers and suppliers are just great when their product fails or they mess up and others are not. It is a pleasure when you find one like the one you found. I ordered $300 plus of security system from Simply Safe a few years ago. There was a mix up in shipping and I ended up with someone's order that was not even close to what I ordered and it was a month late. It seems my order went to Nevada. Called them up and not only did they tell me to keep that order but sent the missing parts and didn't charge me anything. Not even the first $300. I called them because they had not taken the payment out of my account and the guy said no charge. Their stuff works great and of course I recommend them. However Sears is not that way. They will get money out of you anyway they can has been my experience. I had a warranty on a Craftsman riding mower, more expensive model, that had several problems during the warranty period. Had several factory defects. One of which was the trans mounting. The trans mounting broke away from the trans, for the third time, really messing up the linkage. They said that the trans would have to be replaced because the threaded hole in the trans had been destroyed. But there was a problem, the trans was no longer available. Found a new trans, exact model, on the web by the way. But they said I would have to buy a new mower. Then wanted to charge me $100 for them telling me they couldn't fix it. I did what I probably should have done in the first place. Straightened out the linkage tapped a new hole in the trans put everything back together and mowed my yard. Still have that mower even though I have to fix it sometimes two or three times a year. Great Briggs and Stratton engine and a Dana trans. But the rest is (you fill in the expletive).

By the way, still looking for a mower manufacturer that sells riding mowers that will last. Haven't found one yet. PM me if you have a suggestion. Please don't tell me John Deer. Had a 10 year old Cub Cadet that out lasted my brother in laws new John Deer back in the 80s. But Cubs are now the same as Craftsman. And no zero turn with two trans to break.

[dikman]

Joe, based on what you said earlier in reply to flybyjohn's post, I'd always assumed that there is an upper heat limit at which point the coating will fail to bond. Can you clarify this please, as I'm curious? What is the maximum temp that it has been baked at?

[Ausglock]

Joe, based on what you said earlier in reply to flybyjohn's post, I'd always assumed that there is an upper heat limit at which point the coating will fail to bond. Can you clarify this please, as I'm curious? What is the maximum temp that it has been baked at?
I have tried this.
I baked a tray of 250 135gn RN-BB at 250deg C for 15 minutes using the Kryptonie green powder.
The prep was as per normal (6mls per coat @ 20gms:100mls mix)
Air dry and pre-warm with fan heater.
All passed the smash and wipe tests. The green went dark brown (just like Ernie Dingo's backside)
I then applied 2 coats of Black K15 over the top. Also baked at the higher temps and time.

No issues. Nice shiny black.

[ioon44]

My oven is getting a lot of miles on it now and the thermostat is starting to stick, I set it to 200 deg C but sometimes I it catch it at 220 deg C.

I guess I am not as worried about the them getting this high, so far the Candy Apple Red is not getting much darker and still works great.

[Avenger442]

I to have tried intentionally baking hotter and longer to see what would happen. 450 +/- F at 25 min with Gold 1035 just gave me dark Gold 1035. No smash and certainly no wipe issues. Shot just like normal. I have remelted some coated, usually the smash test in with scrap from other things. It just sits on top of the melt at 600+ F and the lead kinda seperates at that point as it becomes liquid. I guess the coating has trouble staying on liquid lead. Joe probably needs to work on that one.:kidding:

[HI-TEK]

5
" It just sits on top of the melt at 600+ F and the lead kinda seperates at that point as it becomes liquid. I guess the coating has trouble staying on liquid lead. Joe probably needs to work on that one.:kidding:

Avenger 442,
It seems, I have fallen short in trying to ensure that the coating will remain stuck to melted Lead. It is a bad mistake... I now have to punish myself and increase the sizes of my shot glass for the fine Kentucky liquids that I received from Santa.....
210729 days of cooking..
Here is more pictures of over cooked coatings. 3 hours at 200C. Kryptonite Green .210727210728

[Grmps]

Joe, would we get the same results (Just darker boolits) for 15 min @ 250°C / 482C ?

[HI-TEK]

Joe, would we get the same results (Just darker boolits) for 15 min @ 250°C / 482C ?

Grmps,
Good question, but unfortunately, ...I have no answers to this one.

I have several concerns about such temperatures
1. What oven would be able to heat to 250C . Most wont unless designed for running at such high temperatures.
2. What also would the effect be on the alloy? My understanding on alloy with elevated heat is, that the composition may start to "bleed" on the surface with separation of the various metals.
I have no idea, what such surface change on alloy would result with coating and bond.

It is possible, that coating may withstand short heat such as for 15 minutes at 250. However, I do not know any one that has carried out such experiment. The only way is to try the experiment. Most colours will be severely changed.

For the coating and application, why would any one need such high temperature conditions, when good results can be obtained at a much lower temperature conditions?

A couple of commercial manufacturers, in fact fast cure the coating at about 220C, for about 4-5 minutes to increase production rates. But that is the highest temperatures that I am aware of as being used.

As I have said, the setting and bonding of the coating and alloy both needs to get to 180C and held there or nearby for an extra 3 minutes to finish. (generally with oven around 200C)
Having oven at 250, you would possibly get alloy to that 180C in very quick time.
Also, it will be difficult to control exact reproducibility for each batch as a few seconds either way in oven may change results.

[Grmps]

Thanks Joe

[Avenger442]

Guys
Pistol test with Hi Tek and PC has been delayed. We are in the deep freeze here until next week. They are warning people against staying outside too long. Have had several cases of frostbite at the hospital. Barely getting above freezing for quite a few days now. Wind chill to single digits. Lake behind house is freezing over. Something we don't normally see here in the South. It is so cold that my progressive press in the basement will not operate correctly and I don't want that coming into play with the loaded round. It's a Hornady and I thought it might need greasing. But that didn't help. The viscosity of the grease was way too thick with the low temps in the basement. Will revisit next week.

Global warming is like most politician's and their promises, never around when you need it.

[HI-TEK]

Guys
Global warming is like most politician's and their promises, never around when you need it.

Avenger, politicians and global warming.......... don't start me up with this......
30 plus years ago, it was destruction of the Earth due to Ozone depletion. Collaborating governments destroyed many companies who were accused of making these devastating materials that will destroy the world.
This has all gone quiet.
We now have the next agenda, (TAX) based on Global warming by humans activity. The tax was going to fix it all.......as people paying these taxes will stop warming the earth....WHAT?????????
When the scam was exposed, the direction changed. It is now climate change. I agree, climate is changing, summer, winter, autumn, spring......
I saw an article about this subject where it was claimed as having a world wide collaboration by people in authority, to simply raise money with the scam. (What is the money for???)

I have no idea, and, if we believe/convinced with all that is stated, and we all pay the imposed taxes, how this will suddenly repair or fix this climate change, (short or long term) global warming or whatever is now being peddled to the masses??????

Apology for my rant, but this has really annoyed me for a long time...

[Avenger442]

That's OK Joe. I think it annoys any critical thinking human being.

You sound like you are old enough to remember the 70s when we were about to enter the next ice age according to scientist paid good money to research it. Then it was ozone depletion in the 90s and we were all going to burn to death along with the earth. Now it's climate change and the people paying for the research get to define what that is. It is not science if not proven to be correct. They cannot do that so it is only theory. And we don't need to pay heed to every theory that comes down the road. That is how the earth got flat and the sun rotated around the earth. But don't you just wish sometimes they would make up their mind what the theory is and stick with it.

No disrespect meant to you and you profession but I have met some guys while working on research facilities that would try to use calculus to prove that 1+1=3 if there was a grant attached to it. I think you know what I mean. Truth and real proof were relative terms and not subject to the tenants of true science.
:hijack:

[popper]

First try at shake & bake 1035 gold powder. Boolits are 185gr WFN, GC - been sized and GC installed. Powder has been in the garage a couple years so i know it's damp & clumpy. Actually coated pretty well - first coat is a gold 'stain', little more color at the clumps. Wipe & smash OK, I'll test the sizer effect (due to clumps) after the second coat. Got the powder tub inside to try to de-humidify it some. This stuff doesn't appear to 'flow' as well as PC but actually coated with just a short 'swirl'.

[smlekid]

https://preview.ibb.co/cOnf7G/20180107_170449.jpg (https://ibb.co/ky1U1b)
https://preview.ibb.co/fE4SnG/20180107_171423.jpg (https://ibb.co/hnf07G)
After trying powder coat with mixed results I got hold of some Hitek powder from a member of my local club tried it today on some 310 cadets
this just seems to work so much easier than dry tumble powder coating

[HI-TEK]

https://preview.ibb.co/cOnf7G/20180107_170449.jpg (https://ibb.co/ky1U1b)
https://preview.ibb.co/fE4SnG/20180107_171423.jpg (https://ibb.co/hnf07G)
After trying powder coat with mixed results I got hold of some Hitek powder from a member of my local club tried it today on some 310 cadets
this just seems to work so much easier than dry tumble powder coating

They look great.
Looks like you have mastered the coating system.
Well done.

[Grmps]

[url=https://ibb.co/ky1U1b]
After trying powder coat with mixed results I got hold of some Hitek powder from a member of my local club tried it today on some 310 cadets
this just seems to work so much easier than dry tumble powder coating

Good job on your first attempt, HiTek isn't that hard IF you follow the directions.

Not to be negative but how were the rub and smash tests?

[smlekid]

Thanks I really can't believe how simple this method is I followed the instructions and it worked!! Is there a post on here that shows the different colours that are available? I really would like to see a Zombie green and a bright red for my 45 and 9mm maybe some other colours for the 44mag and 357
I've been reading through this Thread and am only at page 40 I think I have a lot more pages to get through
Rub and smash test were great no issues

[Grmps]

go here,
http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder-3-5-oz-container/
click on the color squares to show pictures of that colored bullets

[smlekid]

Thanks Grmps just what I was looking for Unfortunately there isn't a picture of the lime green boolit
has anyone used this colour?

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Grmps just what I was looking for Unfortunately there isn't a picture of the lime green boolit
has anyone used this colour?

Picture of Zombie Green or Zombie Killers as some call it...
211259

[smlekid]

Thanks HI-TEK that's what I was looking for I'll send you an email order sometime this week

[Ausglock]

Ummmmm... that is Kryptonite Green.......

[HI-TEK]

Ummmmm... that is Kryptonite Green.......


You are correct it is Kryptonite Green. It must have been my bloodshot crossed eyes from Christmas celebrations.
It looks like I chose wrong picture to upload.
Here is correct one (I hope)
211348

[smlekid]

I think I prefer the Kryptonite green is there a red that has a similar finish to the Kryptonite green?

[kevin c]

Anyone getting any "Siamese Twins": bullets stuck together after the bake?

As I was running short I used a new batch of the black cherry for my second coat, preparing the same mix I used before (20 g in 120 ml acetone), from the same container of HiTek and the same acetone, well mixed (vigorous shaking with a bullet in the container), letting it stand for a few hours, more vigorous shaking each before each application, using 5 ml on 4.5 # of the same casts I've always coated, baked the same way. Same oven (a Breville) at the same temp and time. Same shake and turn halfway through. Same trays.

For the first time, I got bullets stuck together. Usually side by side, occasionally end to end. Pulling them apart will expose a tiny bit of lead. Wipe and smash tests pass for every bake.

This did not happen with the first coat, which used the prior mix.

The one thing I can think that was otherwise different was that part of the acetone I used to mix up the new batch was the wash I used to clean up the bullet coating container. This made up a little less than a half of the acetone. I'd tried to used it before as a first coat, but it was too dilute, so I thought it wouldn't add much HiTek to the final mix, figuring at most it might get the final mix close to the standard 20 g per 100 ml others use.

[HI-TEK]

I think I prefer the Kryptonite green is there a red that has a similar finish to the Kryptonite green?

I don't know if Candy Apple will suit or not?


211349

[HI-TEK]

Anyone getting any "Siamese Twins": bullets stuck together after the bake?

The one thing I can think that was otherwise different was that part of the acetone I used to mix up the new batch was the wash I used to clean up the bullet coating container. This made up a little less than a half of the acetone. I'd tried to used it before as a first coat, but it was too dilute, so I thought it wouldn't add much HiTek to the final mix, figuring at most it might get the final mix close to the standard 20 g per 100 ml others use.

Coating container wash mostly is OK for first coat. Keep in mind, that first coat will always be or should be very thin, and may appear uneven, blotchy. After thorough drying and baking of first coat, if smash test is OK and solvent rub test is OK, then a second heavier coat will cover imperfections and make finished product more pretty.

By your washing coating container, then adding more coating, you really did not have any idea of just how much coating you ended up with in the wash Acetone.

The bonding of two projectiles is telling me that you had too much coating, and the load already had reached cure conditions when you allegedly took tray out to shake and return to oven.
The bonding at that half way point would already there, before shaking tray and further baking simply bonded them more strongly..

[Ausglock]

If you get bullets sticking together, reduce the amount you are using for the second coat and shake a few minutes early.


Smellykid. The candy Apple is very nice glitter red.

[smlekid]

I don't know if Candy Apple will suit or not?


211349

Yep that will do nicely Red for 9mm green for the 45
will be in touch

[dikman]

Yep that will do nicely Red for 9mm green for the 45

:lol: I was like that when I first started, and kept all the pretty colours in separate containers. Now they just get thrown together in the buckets they're stored in and when I'm reloading I just grab a handful of whatever's on top.

[Grmps]

Yep that will do nicely Red for 9mm green for the 45
will be in touch

Hi-Tek is the industrial chemist that designed Hi-Tek coating, Hew doesn't sell to us Yanks
If you want to buy some,

Donnie hi-performancebulletcoatings a VS here

link to the online store

http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder/

[Grmps]

Anyone getting any "Siamese Twins": bullets stuck together after the bake?

As I was running short I used a new batch of the black cherry for my second coat, preparing the same mix I used before (20 g in 120 ml acetone), from the same container of HiTek and the same acetone, well mixed (vigorous shaking with a bullet in the container), letting it stand for a few hours, more vigorous shaking each before each application, using 5 ml on 4.5 # of the same casts I've always coated, baked the same way. Same oven (a Breville) at the same temp and time. Same shake and turn halfway through. Same trays.

For the first time, I got bullets stuck together. Usually side by side, occasionally end to end. Pulling them apart will expose a tiny bit of lead. Wipe and smash tests pass for every bake.

This did not happen with the first coat, which used the prior mix.

The one thing I can think that was otherwise different was that part of the acetone I used to mix up the new batch was the wash I used to clean up the bullet coating container. This made up a little less than a half of the acetone. I'd tried to used it before as a first coat, but it was too dilute, so I thought it wouldn't add much HiTek to the final mix, figuring at most it might get the final mix close to the standard 20 g per 100 ml others use.

I've found that 5 mil to 4.5# is a little much.
I use a bit (I know reall technical) less than a mil per # on the first coat then
just a little under a mil per # on the second coat.
I make sure they are COMPLETELY DRY, then warmed and none stuck together before going in the oven
and never have any problems with sticking

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek is the industrial chemist that designed Hi-Tek coating, Hew doesn't sell to us Yanks
If you want to buy some,

Donnie hi-performancebulletcoatings a VS here

link to the online store

http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder/

Grmps I think that he is located in down under area, not in US.

[smlekid]

Hi-Tek is the industrial chemist that designed Hi-Tek coating, Hew doesn't sell to us Yanks
If you want to buy some,

Donnie hi-performancebulletcoatings a VS here

link to the online store

http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder/

I'm in Australia so I have that covered

[popper]

ASBBDT 1035 gold powder. Cooked at med on hot plate. Back row is single coat - lots of swirl, front (7) is 2nd coat. Not perfect but works. No acetone. I'll size when cooled and see if it does well.
211417
Edit: Cooking 3rd coat now. Had to put a cover over the hot plate to get temp high enough - stuff must be a really good thermal insulator. 2nd coat had color come off but it sized fine - no rub-off of the coating. Be a while before I get to shoot in the 30/30. At any rate it works. When I get to cast some more I'll try a real thick single coat.

[Avenger442]

When I get to cast some more I'll try a real thick single coat.

Popper
A really thick single coat will probably not pass the smash test. If you try it hope you have better luck than I did on about 10 pounds of 45s.
I tried a thick coat and I had to melt them down. Coating didn't come off on first smash test. I tried to size them and it was cracking up when sized on about half of the bullets. Smash tested another couple of bullets and it was coming off down to the lead. It was actually two batches of bullets that I had dumped in together. I think one batch may have been just on the edge of too thick and the other went past what I could get by with. Will never know. But it was an excuse to cast again.

[popper]

211484
I got the same results after the last coat/cook as I got when using acetone. Dark color and bad smash. These were sized before coating. By thick coat I mean just one coat DT, vs 3 I did here. I'm also remembering something told me about alloy, Sn & Sb tend to make the Pb surface 'textured' (Sb 'wash' ?) that would help the adhesion. I used Cu/Zn/Sb in these and the Cu locks the Sb into a molecule. Pb has NO surface pores. At any rate, dry vs wet is the same result as far as I can tell, dry is less mess. Farther tests prob. in Feb as lots to get done this month and weather is 'chilly'.

[4719dave]

Dont size before you coat
211484
I got the same results after the last coat/cook as I got when using acetone. Dark color and bad smash. These were sized before coating. By thick coat I mean just one coat DT, vs 3 I did here. I'm also remembering something told me about alloy, Sn & Sb tend to make the Pb surface 'textured' (Sb 'wash' ?) that would help the adhesion. I used Cu/Zn/Sb in these and the Cu locks the Sb into a molecule. Pb has NO surface pores. At any rate, dry vs wet is the same result as far as I can tell, dry is less mess. Farther tests prob. in Feb as lots to get done this month and weather is 'chilly'.

[Avenger442]

211484
I got the same results after the last coat/cook as I got when using acetone. Dark color and bad smash. These were sized before coating. By thick coat I mean just one coat DT, vs 3 I did here. I'm also remembering something told me about alloy, Sn & Sb tend to make the Pb surface 'textured' (Sb 'wash' ?) that would help the adhesion. I used Cu/Zn/Sb in these and the Cu locks the Sb into a molecule. Pb has NO surface pores. At any rate, dry vs wet is the same result as far as I can tell, dry is less mess. Farther tests prob. in Feb as lots to get done this month and weather is 'chilly'.

:kidding::bigsmyl2:

[Grmps]

popper when doing HiTek -w- acetone, the primary cause of poor adhesion is the coating isn't completely dry before baking.
too thick a coating does not dry well.

My question is why do it like PC? the cost would be prohibitive @ $10.95 for 3.5 oz

[popper]

Cause I can? Just an experiment. Eliminates the problem of drying properly. These were the only I had that aren't already PCd.

[snscasting]

211484
I got the same results after the last coat/cook as I got when using acetone. Dark color and bad smash. These were sized before coating. By thick coat I mean just one coat DT, vs 3 I did here. I'm also remembering something told me about alloy, Sn & Sb tend to make the Pb surface 'textured' (Sb 'wash' ?) that would help the adhesion. I used Cu/Zn/Sb in these and the Cu locks the Sb into a molecule. Pb has NO surface pores. At any rate, dry vs wet is the same result as far as I can tell, dry is less mess. Farther tests prob. in Feb as lots to get done this month and weather is 'chilly'.

In my experience(about 40,000,000 bullets coated) you can have the oven temperatures too high. If I hit 430*F I would get some flaking when smashed. If they're coming out darker than they should and you're at 14:00 or less you may have the ovens too hot. Some may disagree but I have experienced a lot of failures in the past that were fixed by lowering my oven temps to a max of 405*F.

That would be the first thing I would try to change since it is a very simple adjustment. If that doesn't work, cut down to about 15 grams/100ml and use about .8ml per pound.

[popper]

Sns - think you are right, this stuff seems to have a smaller temp band than PC. No acetone, just shake & bake.

[HI-TEK]

Sns - think you are right, this stuff seems to have a smaller temp band than PC. No acetone, just shake & bake.

Popper,
I don't know about temperature band comparisons, but it would be interesting to run powder coating at 250C and see what happens.

As posted several times previously, the Hi-TEK coating only requires 3 minutes to fully cure after reaching the 180C . After such cure the coating performs adequately.

I cannot understand why any one wants to keep heating and baking for longer and at higher temperatures?
It just does not make sense.

If you consider your tests, using Hi-Tek as a powder, the coating residue, is no different to coatings that had been applied from solvent systems, as dry resin is same as the powdered version after drying off Acetone.

In terms of ovens not being set correctly, is hardly the fault of the product.

From what has been published on this blog, powder coating is baked at 200C for 20 minutes to cure.
I wonder, what will Powder coating look like and perform like, after 20 minutes at 250C temperature?
It will be an interesting comparison between coatings.

Further, commercial guys had reported, that twice Hi-Tek coated casts, had been baked at 200C for 3 weeks, at 8 hour days.
Coating was dark, but passed all tests, and shot most accurately and no Leading, smashed OK and no wipe off, and no flaking.

What seems to be the problem with that????

[kevin c]

Coating container wash mostly is OK for first coat. Keep in mind, that first coat will always be or should be very thin, and may appear uneven, blotchy...

By your washing coating container, then adding more coating, you really did not have any idea of just how much coating you ended up with in the wash Acetone...

Thank you for your comments, Hi-Tek.

Perhaps I misunderstood using the wash. Are we talking about putting a few mls of fresh acetone into the dry, empty container to dissolve the coating left over from just coating one batch, and then putting a second batch of bare bullets into the container right then to be coated with the wash as the entire first coat? That implies that the amount of HiTek that coats the bullets is only a part of the total added to the container, wouldn't it?

I had actually used the same wash acetone to clean several consecutive coating batches - even though it looked thin and had very little suspended solids, I see by your comments that it had more than enough HiTek in it, and adding more was just overkill.

I didn't see any bonded bullets at the halfway point shake, but it is possible I just didn't see them.

Going back over my notes, I think I had previously used a larger batch size, up to 20 % more weight - that probably made everything that much worse,

I will try diluting my super concentrated mix and/or reducing the volume added

[Ausglock]

The wash from the swirl container is used to make up a new mix.
But.... bear in mind. I washout after about 10,000 coated. and use about 200mls of acetone for the wash.
When I mix, I do 2 litres of coating, 400mls of Catalyst and 2.8litres of Acetone for a 5.1.7 mix. The 200 mls of wash makes up some of the 2,8 litres.
For powder, I do 800gms of powder to 4 litres of acetone. the wash is part of the 4 litres.

[Grmps]

Popper, I think you need to use the acetone to completely incorporate all the dry ingredients in the HiTek powder into a solution to allow a thinner coat than ASBBDT and HT powder can give you. when the powder "melts" it leaves too thick a coating for proper curing / adhesion, thus your less than desireable results.
I've never had a drying problem with HiTek.I use <1mil solution per # of boolits, swirl no more than 15 seconds, I dump on a wire tray, set the tray on a wire rack in front of a fan. They are always dry within 30 min, then I put that tray on top of the oven to warm for 1 bake cycle. ( I live in the NW and it rains a bit here).
I started out by asking Trevor and Joe a lot of questions, --- I was trying to over think it like a lot of people do.

[kevin c]

The wash from the swirl container is used to make up a new mix.
But.... bear in mind. I washout after about 10,000 coated. and use about 200mls of acetone for the wash.
When I mix, I do 2 litres of coating, 400mls of Catalyst and 2.8litres of Acetone for a 5.1.7 mix. The 200 mls of wash makes up some of the 2,8 litres.
For powder, I do 800gms of powder to 4 litres of acetone. the wash is part of the 4 litres.

Thank you, Trevor. The specifics on your wash and how you incorporate it into the next mix confirms just how much I overdid it. I can salvage my mix by diluting it appropriately.

[HI-TEK]

Thank you, Trevor. The specifics on your wash and how you incorporate it into the next mix confirms just how much I overdid it. I can salvage my mix by diluting it appropriately.

Kevin c,
The great thing with this coating is, that you can recover and re-cycle product back into solution if it has not been baked.
As Trevor said, you can wash all containers and recycle dried residues, then use wash solvent to make a new coating mix.
Also, if you make mistake, or use too much coating, it is a simple situation to add only a little more solvent , and add more non coated cast. That way you use the coating which is now spread/extended over larger amount of cast.

[Grmps]

Joe, Do you think If I used 1 mil of straight mek per pound of bullets do you think the residue on the sides of my power tumbler would dissolve and adhere to the bullets in 15 - 20 seconds?

[HI-TEK]

Joe, Do you think If I used 1 mil of straight mek per pound of bullets do you think the residue on the sides of my power tumbler would dissolve and adhere to the bullets in 15 - 20 seconds?

Great question.
My guess is that the coating will dissolve, but more slowly. It may be simply better to put in the uncoated alloy with the MEK, put a lid on it, and shake.
Leave it for a little while, and shake again. Examine and if its working, simply repeat shake a couple of times more and check again.
Just how much coating you have in your coating container is really a guess. Adding a little more solvent wont hurt at all, as you can dry it off after you dissolved the coating from your container. Main aim is to use up the coating and coat the projectiles instead of container.

[Ausglock]

If you don't want to re-use the wash, It makes great weed killer.
I've dumped probably 20 liters of mixed coating on the weeds over the last few years.

[Grmps]

I think if the buildup gets bad, (so far it hasn't I also built a powdered coater this is the only way to go to get great consistency and do bigger batches (8 pounds/3.63 KG) per batch) My coater does double duty as a 2 gallon brass polisher, I just change the tilt of the bucket.

https://i.imgur.com/xoElmDg.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/GlFU5Dr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GUcoadg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RVeVB21.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/08uYK3I.jpg

[HI-TEK]

I think if the buildup gets bad, (so far it hasn't I also built a powdered coater this is the only way to go to get great consistency and do bigger batches (8 pounds/3.63 KG) per batch) My coater does double duty as a 2 gallon brass polisher, I just change the tilt of the bucket.

https://i.imgur.com/xoElmDg.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/GlFU5Dr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GUcoadg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RVeVB21.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/08uYK3I.jpg


That is a great set up.
In the Green bucket, you may have enough to recycle and re-use. What seems to happen, with time, and using the coating system, each load with added coating can become much too much coating, then, each made up coating dose will start to solubilise what is in the bucket. The more dried coating build up you have inside bucket, it is more possible to end up with a much more concentrated brew that is coating your casts.

[Grmps]

Thanks, Joe, I have a separate bucket for each color.
I think I'll start going 20% heavier on the MEK, see if that takes off a little coating and slows down the depositing.
From my understanding, worse case scenario I'll have to go 3 coats to get the color I want and I might get a smoother finish but I can't complain about the finish I get now.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks, Joe, I have a separate bucket for each color.
I think I'll start going 20% heavier on the MEK, see if that takes off a little coating and slows down the depositing.
From my understanding, worse case scenario I'll have to go 3 coats to get the color I want and I might get a smoother finish but I can't complain about the finish I get now.


Great plan. You are on top of things. I am glad you are having success.
Keep all updated with your on going results.

[ioon44]

The way I deal with coating build up is to put 5 to 6 pounds of bullets in the container with a splash of Acetone then put the lid on and shake and swirl until it looks about right for the first coat. I do this 3 to 4 times to get the bucket clean from heavy build up.

One problem I have had is when the bucket gets too much build up SWC bullets will pick up a glob of coating from the sides of the bucket when dumping on to the screen, keeping the bucket clean and using 125 ml to 20 g solves this problem.

[snscasting]

Thanks, Joe, I have a separate bucket for each color.
I think I'll start going 20% heavier on the MEK, see if that takes off a little coating and slows down the depositing.
From my understanding, worse case scenario I'll have to go 3 coats to get the color I want and I might get a smoother finish but I can't complain about the finish I get now.


Just add about 25% more bullets to your normal batch and squirt a little acetone on the top edge of the thicker coating that is stuck on the bucket. The extra bullets will be high enough to help knock that coating off. I do this about every 4 times that I coat my standard amount of bullets.. this keeps the bucket clean and makes for clean, slick bullets. I then use pretty much the same amount of coating that I use for my normal amount of bullets(but I don't let my bucket get caked up very much so you may have to cut back a little on the amount of coating that you use.)

[kevin c]

So ioon44 and snscasting, just so I am sure I understand, that splash of acetone and the load of new bullets cleans the bucket and acts as the first coat for those bullets?

And to be sure I don't have to melt 2500 cast and extra heavily coated boolits, if they all passed the wipe and smash tests, they should be fine to use?

[HI-TEK]

So ioon44 and snscasting, just so I am sure I understand, that splash of acetone and the load of new bullets cleans the bucket and acts as the first coat for those bullets?

You have understood it correctly. That is exactly what can be done if you have enough deposits in your coating container.

And to be sure I don't have to melt 2500 cast and extra heavily coated boolits, if they all passed the wipe and smash tests, they should be fine to use?

Right again. The aim is to make sure, that first coat is well bonded, and it does not have to look pretty. Second coat makes it pretty, and covers imperfections left with first coat.

What is now becoming more clear is, that it seems that coating containers having a build up is suggesting too much coating is being added each time, and or, using a strong brew.
The excess is wiped from alloy and remains on coating container where it dries.
As coating is very forgiving and is recyclable, the residue inside coating containers is not lost, and can be re-used.

[Grmps]

Just add about 25% more bullets to your normal batch and squirt a little acetone on the top edge of the thicker coating that is stuck on the bucket. The extra bullets will be high enough to help knock that coating off. I do this about every 4 times that I coat my standard amount of bullets.. this keeps the bucket clean and makes for clean, slick bullets. I then use pretty much the same amount of coating that I use for my normal amount of bullets(but I don't let my bucket get caked up very much so you may have to cut back a little on the amount of coating that you use.)

Makes sense SNS, glad to have you aboard.

[Michael J. Spangler]

211801

messing with Black 1035

[TonyN]

I'm looking into another oven... There is a house oven that is a convection oven. Anyone try the electric house convection oven for baking. I would like to know if those have enough forced air to properly get the heat to cure the Hi-Tek?

Thanks for all your support.

[Ausglock]

I'm looking into another oven... There is a house oven that is a convection oven. Anyone try the electric house convection oven for baking. I would like to know if those have enough forced air to properly get the heat to cure the Hi-Tek?

Thanks for all your support.

Yep.
http://i.imgur.com/BpaVVjY.jpg (https://imgur.com/BpaVVjY)

This oven has 4 heating elements, but I'm only using 2.
2 trays of 2.5Kg each baked in 7 minutes.

[TonyN]

But you have modified your oven. I'm thinking just a normal convection oven from a store that would be in a house that I can buy. I'm meaning the large house oven in convection style.

[HI-TEK]

But you have modified your oven. I'm thinking just a normal convection oven from a store that would be in a house that I can buy. I'm meaning the large house oven in convection style.

Tony N,
A straight convection oven is not the best thing to use. If you can get one (second hand) usually thrown out, then install a fan through the wall.
Fan forced circulation is required to bake the whole tray evenly and also speed up baking process.
Without heat circulation the baking is uneven, and you get hot spots and cold spots inside oven so you really don't know where you are with how long baking time is required, and if adequate.
Without a fan you can get same tray over baking on one side, and other side not baked enough. This is main reason why there is variation with results especially of you load up the oven without fan forced air circulation..
FOR BEST RESULTS, YOU NEED FAN FORCED AIR CIRCULATIO IN OVEN
This has been discussed many times previously.

[ioon44]

I have been using a normal convection oven from a store for about 4 or 5 years, the only thing I done was add a layer of bricks to the bottom rack.
I also use a digital K-type thermometer to keep track of the actual temperature in side of the oven, I do 10 to 12 lbs of bullets in 12 min with 2 trays.

[TonyN]

No Hi-Tek. I'm talking about a full size house oven the is a Convection oven with a fan in it already. Are the convection ovens not modified any good? I have a house oven I use to PC already. Are there fans I can buy and cut a hole in the side of the oven and add one myself? If they have fans toy can buy and add I would do that. Like I said. I have a full size house oven already but no fan. I'm wanting to know if I can install one myself.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=TonyN;4263405]No Hi-Tek. I'm talking about a full size house oven the is a Convection oven with a fan in it already.These are OK.
Are the convection ovens not modified any good?Convection ovens without fans can work, but not ideal.
I have a house oven I use to PC already. Are there fans I can buy and cut a hole in the side of the oven and add one myself? Yes, you can buy a motor, with long shaft, and inside oven you install a fan on motor shaft
If they have fans toy can buy and add I would do that. I don't understand this question. Like I said.
I have a full size house oven already but no fan. I'm wanting to know if I can install one myself. I suggest you talk to an electrician and an electrical wholesaler for advice and installation of suitable fan/motor. I don't recommend you installing any electrical item.
Any oven can be modified if it has no fan, and if there is adequate space inside the oven for the fan. Fans, and suitable motors for fan are available.

[/COLOR]My replies are in red. I thought that I had supplied you answers to your questions, but may be not...

[TonyN]

Anyone have any clue what these items would be called to turn my oven into a convection oven. I can't find any parts for this.

[glockfan]

coating with hi tek. what i'm doing wrong ?
hi all at castboolit.long time lurker first time poster here.

i must admit that i've started to be interested by casting my own boolits when one of my shooting buddy gave me couple of his cast boolits coated with HI TEK to try in one of my limited glocks . it's been an eye opening experience .really ; no fumes,no lube, no barrel fooling.....very clean and accurate rounds .

before this day , i was reluctant to walk into casting because all it implies; lubing,resizing, ingot casting,bullet casting....and all the stages involved in the whole proces .

did my own research to learn the ropes ,and then started buying moulds,furnace, collecting wheel weights, a lyman 4500 lubrisizer ; i'm currently working with a lyman 356637 9mm rnfp 147 , and a 401638 175grainer for my 40's.both are 4 cavities moulds. i'm also waiting for an NOE groovless mould in 40S&W.

couple days ago i bought some hi tek powder in zombie green ,a can of acetone, and a hamilton beach convexion oven to get me started into boolit coating .

...and after my fisrt batch ever , here's the result which i think is really not what i should get as result.

for the record i mixed 20grams of powder in 100ml of acetone.

i had 1 pound of 9mm and 45acp boolits for my test , which i've put in a basket with 1ml of the hi tek mix , then shaked the basket for 20 seconds so the solvent evaporate and the mix stick to the boolits.

settled the oven to 400f and cooked the first layer for 10 minutes. here what i got. the boolits were brown.

212236
212237




then after leaving the batch cooling down to room temp i resumed the process for a second pass in the oven. here what i got after 8 minutes at 400 .
212238
212239




i can add to this that when i proceeded to make the mix in a translucid jar,i added a jacketed boolit to help stiring the mix, BUT that boolit have an exposed base,and i'm wondering if it could be the reason as why my mix look like that with a dark layer floating on top of the '''juice'''.
212240




to conclude i can say that those boolits failed the acetone and hammer test. the coating is chipping away,and when i proceeded to the hammer test the coating peeled off after only one hit.

[Ausglock]

G'day, Tupperware boy.

Mate... when you mix 20gms to 100mls Acetone. leave it to react for at least 30 minutes before you try and coat.
Add 5mls to 2.5Kg of bullets.
Swirl and dump onto drying tray just before it starts to dry off.
Dumping them wet is OK. Dumping them dry is bad.

From the looks of your bullets the first and second coats look to have FAR TOO MUCH coating on them and the second coat looks lumpy. A sure sign that they were over swirled.
The lube groove of the 9mm pills should not have any coating in them. If you have coating in the groove, you are using far too much.....

8 minutes in a small benchtop oven would not be enough time. I find 10 to 12 works fine.

I use lead bullets as rattle balls in my jars of mixed coating, so you have no problems with a jacketed pill.

Make sure that your tray of bullets is ABSOFUGGENLOTELY dry before baking. warm them with a hair drier before baking.

Also.. try to bake the same size and weight pills together.
9mm and 45 pills have far different heatup rates.

The biggest problem newbies have is :
1. using too much
2. baking when not dry.

[glockfan]

G'day, Tupperware boy.

Mate... when you mix 20gms to 100mls Acetone. leave it to react for at least 30 minutes before you try and coat.
Add 5mls to 2.5Kg of bullets.
Swirl and dump onto drying tray just before it starts to dry off.
Dumping them wet is OK. Dumping them dry is bad.

From the looks of your bullets the first and second coats look to have FAR TOO MUCH coating on them and the second coat looks lumpy. A sure sign that they were over swirled.
The lube groove of the 9mm pills should not have any coating in them. If you have coating in the groove, you are using far too much.....

8 minutes in a small benchtop oven would not be enough time. I find 10 to 12 works fine.

I use lead bullets as rattle balls in my jars of mixed coating, so you have no problems with a jacketed pill.

Make sure that your tray of bullets is ABSOFUGGENLOTELY dry before baking. warm them with a hair drier before baking.

Also.. try to bake the same size and weight pills together.
9mm and 45 pills have far different heatup rates.

The biggest problem newbies have is :
1. using too much
2. baking when not dry.



thanks for the reply ausglock.

yep, i'm a glockfan héhé ...in fact, i have 4 of them fully customized for the IPSC standard class.

seems like getting good result with hi tek is easy, but it,s also easy to get bad results lol. it looks very straight forward at first glance, but realize that you must get an absolute control over the temps provided by the oven used.

i can't justify the 250$ required for a breville oven,so i settled for the hamilton beach unit. i'm using an external meter so i can get a clear idea of the temp i'm baking . i'm getting a steady 400 no problem.

baking in small batch requires very little mixture...and probably i've poured too much of it on the second layer.

i'm gonna remelt those boolits and try again tomorrow ...i 'm thinking perhaps getting some seringes would be a good measurement device , then adding the exact amount of mixture for the weight of lead i'm cooking should be more accurate.

[Grmps]

try 10grms to 60 mil
less than 1 mil solution to 1 # of boolits let the mix sit at least 30 min
aggitate the solution with a couple boolits in the container immediately before applying to boolits
use 10 ml syringe to extract 10 mills solution squirt it back in th bottle, extract another 10 mills, squirt out what you don't need, apply the remaining solution to boolits (no more than 1 mil per #
swirl-agitate no more than 20 seconds [if the sound starts changing you've gone too long they are supposed to be damp when dumped]
dump on screen/vented tray/basket and dry in front of a fan for 30 min
set a tray on an oven for 10 min to pre-warm /insure 110% dry
test oven with a thermometer set in the middle of bake shelf, adjust oven temp setting until the thermometer reads 400° I have a $20 convection oven from thrift store and $50 convection oven from anazon that do great
bake 13 min, to begin with, if boolits are too dark, back bake time off a couple minutes [to dark will pass the smash and rub test and are ok to shoot]
make sure boolits are cool and pass smash and rub test before the second coat

[Ausglock]

I hear ya..

Yes. ... use a Syringe. I do. it makes for repeatability.
My old Gen 2.5 G17 Open Major 9.
https://i.imgur.com/ao4h9qg.jpg

My current Gen 3 G35 in 357SIG.
We can't have 40S&W for IPSC, So 357Sig is std Major down here.
https://i.imgur.com/z9kR08l.jpg

[Rich22]

Ausglock, what is the make/model of that beaver tail piece you have? Slightly modified it could solve a problem for me. Hopefully not an Aussie only part. Thank you

[glockfan]

I hear ya..

Yes. ... use a Syringe. I do. it makes for repeatability.
My old Gen 2.5 G17 Open Major 9.
https://i.imgur.com/ao4h9qg.jpg

My current Gen 3 G35 in 357SIG.
We can't have 40S&W for IPSC, So 357Sig is std Major down here.
https://i.imgur.com/z9kR08l.jpg

i see you got the strong hand thumb rest support...i've seen it on glockstore iirc. very nice,it imitate large safety levers....like you i've settled on the dawson ice heavy magwell,it add the weight where it's needed on a glock...seeing your open, i sometimes wonder if at 54 i shouldn't start to think about one myself. old eyes are getting older lol. however, i'm not sure they last ; i figure it must be a question of what is the standard load used.

here's for your ausglock eyes. my limited squadron.

212246212247
212248212249212250

one of the reasons i'm diving into casting-coating is , we are not allowed to shoot casts at the games OR in indoor ranges , BUT a coated bullet is ok. so since a coated bullet is pretty much the same as a jacketed in the sens no lead is exposed and the coating won't separate out the barrel before hiting steel, coated or PC's meets the requirement. i'm about to order some 92-6-2 lead so i can build some harder rounds for the game.

[Ausglock]

Rich. Have a look for "glockthumb" on ebay or the glockstore.

GF... Mate what make is the weakhand thumbrest on your toys.

I run the glockthumb to give the 1911 grip. I have removed it from the right side to get the gun to fit in the stock box.

At 57, my eyes are not great for iron sights.
My current open Div racegun.
https://i.imgur.com/b2t4Dgi.jpg

[glockfan]

Rich. Have a look for "glockthumb" on ebay or the glockstore.

GF... Mate what make is the weakhand thumbrest on your toys.

I run the glockthumb to give the 1911 grip. I have removed it from the right side to get the gun to fit in the stock box.

At 57, my eyes are not great for iron sights.
My current open Div racegun.
https://i.imgur.com/b2t4Dgi.jpg

pffft... your trubor is awesome ; the dvc limited has been on my radar for awhile. a good and less costy alternative to a full stainless SV. what a nice piece really. might shoot like a dream.

however, i'm pleased with my 35 which is my main ; i'm getting a 2.1lbs trigger after some work on the zev ultimate trigger kit.not bad. i also added the taylor freelance heavy base pads (brass) which added some more weight down the grip.

as for the brass toni system frame weight and the 3D thumb rest,well, that was the last bit needed to get the gun's balance very close to those nice 2011's.

i occasionally use my tactical sport in 40 for outdoor games....but i'm a glockfan in and out,and the way my guns are right now,i prefer my glocks 35 and 22 for the games.

[dikman]

Are you guys trying to turn this into a Glock lovefest thread???:razz:

Glockfan, I got the same results with ZG recently. My batch was pretty old so I thinned it down a bit (but obviously not enough) and the first coating was too thick and looked like yours (200*C @11 mins). I threw it out and mixed a new batch and all was ok. So yeah, your coatings are way too thick. I don't use a syringe, just give a squirt into the bucket, but I've learned how to judge it well enough that it works. I've found that 10 mins. in my small oven is the minimum time needed and to do it any quicker will require a decent setup like Trev's, with good air circulation and quick heating.

As for what it looks like when it's settled out, don't worry, that's normal.

[Avenger442]

Glockfan
Hamilton Beach oven is probably not the problem. Don't know which model you have but mine will handle maximum of two trays with five pounds each tray. If you've got the temp controlled it will do what you want.

Concur with others coating too thick, first coat. That will make a smash test fail.

Keep working on it you will get it. And they will give you the accuracy you want.

[glockfan]

Glockfan
Hamilton Beach oven is probably not the problem. Don't know which model you have but mine will handle maximum of two trays with five pounds each tray. If you've got the temp controlled it will do what you want.

Concur with others coating too thick, first coat. That will make a smash test fail.

Keep working on it you will get it. And they will give you the accuracy you want.

DIKMAN , GRMPS and AVENGER 442. thanks for enlighting me about my set up which i'M not confident about at all. now you tell me, i know now that it's probably the way i'm working my mix who is more likely the culprit.

you're raising the question i was about to ask to you guys, since you're much more experienced casters than me : do i have to expect A LITTLE LESS ACURACY than the commercial zero's i was using before ?

i mean...with the zero's i was using for bullseye and at the games, i was able to keep my groupings very very tight, on good days a ragged hole at typical distances . can i expect the same consistency from my coated bullets?

keep in mind i'm totally new to casting and i don't feel that much secure about the results i can ***dream of****.

however, i got couple syringes in an attempt at repeatedly inject the same amount of mixture every times i'm cooking...i guess that the next thing for me to master correctly is the baking process.....i'm tempted by getting a used pizza oven....or something more suited to boolit coating....meaning an oven who would facilitate this cruicial part of the process.

i'd really like to master the hi tek thing because the way i see it,hi tek is more a solid stain than a polymeric ''capsule''' like PC seems to be.hi tek shouldn't add to the circumference of a boolit,while adding some BHN to the round.i'm using wheel weights right now which normally displays 8 to 10 BHN which is a little low from my point of view. i'd like to reach a solid 15 to 18 BHN,and i guess that quenching right after casting and then hi tek might gets me a 12-13 BHN......i know that if i need to get more hardness, some 92-6-2 should maybe land on my ''menu'''.

[Ausglock]

This is the group shot by Dave M. he won the 2016 Australian IPSC nationals championship.
He admits that he is not a group shooter, but was impressed with the accuracy of my 125gn SWC out of his SV racegun.
https://i.imgur.com/BbLNJx8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iPGgX04.jpg

This is shot at 25 yards.

This is my 25yard group from my STI Trubor. using 125gn Conicals
https://i.imgur.com/khoDi14.jpg

[glockfan]

^^^^

interesting.....while of course i see 11 shots on the target pictured with the SV open gun. i'm wondering what a 5 shot groups may look at that distance. typical distances at the indoor match range from 7 to 25 yards. at 10-15 the inherent accuracy of a round isn't that crucial. but at 25, it's easy to get a delta on the follow shot if the batch of ammo used isn't consistent.

my no 1 fear with casting is having to deal with rounds that doesn't weight the same. i got a lyman 4500lubri sizer that i'm confident will provide a consistent bullet shape-circumference ,but the weight...i know it depends on many factors related to the lead used,and maintaining a steady temp of the melter all across the casting session.

[Ausglock]

Most molds will throw within .5gn from cavity to cavity.

But the molds from Accuratemolds.com have less than .3gn.
Drop Tom an email at accuratemolds.com.
I have hand casting molds and machine casting molds from him in Ali and they are brilliant. And he will make them with no lube groove. Perfect for Hitek coating.

[dikman]

No point quenching for hardness and then coating as the heat in the oven will likely remove any additional hardness you gained. If you need a specific hardness then you will have to use an alloy that will give you this. If anything, using Hi-Tek should enable you to get more consistent results shooting as there will be no possible buildup of lead/lube in the barrel to affect subsequent shots. As for sizing, I use two coats and then size, that way I end up with the boolit size I want.

As for the oven, if it's a smallish toaster-size oven try just using the centre rack position only. Putting them too close to an element (at the top or bottom) may cause uneven heating. You may have to experiment a little to find out what works best.

[Ausglock]

My benchtop convection oven.
This one will bake 1 tray of 250 bullets in 12 minutes. I use the middle tray and turn the tray 90deg at the 1/2 way time point.
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

[HI-TEK]

My benchtop convection oven.
This one will bake 1 tray of 250 bullets in 12 minutes. I use the middle tray and turn the tray 90deg at the 1/2 way time point.
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

Love those knee caps... almost model quality...lol...lol

[TonyN]

I actually got the small convection oven to bake properly. I did 5 lbs and the first coat didn't rub off. This is a table top convection oven. I'll work on the big Manuel electric oven to get that running properly with Hi-Tek. I'm using the one with PC and 30 lbs of projectiles with ease. The PC is stupid easy to bake properly and I do the shape n bake all layed out on a cookie tray. I like the colors that Hi-Tek had to offer. I'll get there after over one year of trial failer.

[Avenger442]

From : Glockfan
"you're raising the question i was about to ask to you guys, since you're much more experienced casters than me : do i have to expect A LITTLE LESS ACCURACY than the commercial zero's i was using before ?

i mean...with the zero's i was using for bullseye and at the games, i was able to keep my groupings very very tight, on good days a ragged hole at typical distances . can i expect the same consistency from my coated bullets?"

You guys shoot a lot of handgun. I shoot mostly rifle. And have gotten hooked on the idea of how accurate can I shoot my cast bullets. Your right in that it depends on a lot of things. I don't compete except against my self. And I have only been hand loading for about four years and I'm still tuning in where I want to be as far as group size. My typical in .308 at 100 yards is 1 1/2". And have put four in one ragged hole with the 5th making it 1 1/2". You can get the accuracy you want but will work for it.

[TonyN]

Quench after coating and sizing as the WW will get to 19 BHN. I do that and mine get at the every time.

[glockfan]

Quench after coating and sizing as the WW will get to 19 BHN. I do that and mine get at the every time.

i tought quenching AFTER hi tek coating was NOT recommended? !

[glockfan]

Most molds will throw within .5gn from cavity to cavity.

But the molds from Accuratemolds.com have less than .3gn.
Drop Tom an email at accuratemolds.com.
I have hand casting molds and machine casting molds from him in Ali and they are brilliant. And he will make them with no lube groove. Perfect for Hitek coating.

thanks for the cue ausglock. i've sent him a message to see what he can do for my mighty fourty's . if he can make me a mold, i would resell my lyman moulds to a friend who is in need . he's broken atm and would sell him my lyman for half the price.

[Avenger442]

i tought quenching AFTER hi tek coating was NOT recommended? !

I an effort to see what could happen by hardening of the lead by quenching I did a couple of experiments. Results gave me the opinion that with baked bullets PC or Hi Tek it just wasn't worth the effort. First, unless you use contaminated water, there is no problem with the binding of the coating to the lead. Second, while it is true that baking after quenching does remove most or all of the benefit to BHN, with the right alloy you can gain some points on the BHN scale. Just not enough to make it worth it to me.

Because you guys that compete need to control variances and make everything as repeatably the same as possible in order to win I can agree with Treavor about purchasing a known alloy from some place like Roto Metals. You need a control on the hardness of the bullet. Because it would introduce another process or variable in the mix, I don't think I would quench the bullet if I was competing. Just buy another alloy.

[Avenger442]

A lot of guys that cast just want to shoot a lot as cheaply as possible. Not necessarily concerned with one ragged holes. So wheel weights and scrap lead come into play. Just yesterday I purchased plumbing, flashing and ballast lead from the scrap yard. All of this is almost pure lead at $36 for about 46 pounds. Roto Metals is about $2.50 a pound for 99.9% pure lead. So there is a significant difference in cost. The scrap yard is selling me wheel weights, my main ingredient, for seventeen cents a pound and lets me sort through them to eliminate the zinc and steel weights before paying. I do buy tin from time to time and when I first started I bought some lino type. The tin is great at about 2% to help the lead flow into the mold. It helps make smoother better formed bullets. I thought I would need the lino but it has been three years now and the only thing I have seen it help is when I shoot a real small bullet real fast. In some cases making the bullet harder actually hurt it's accuracy so I've got about half of it left. I know I get a little long winded sometimes in trying to say something. But, for me, part of the fun in casting and shooting is the experimentation and seeing what can be done with what I can put together as cheaply as possible. If I were competing it would most likely give me a different center of thought on tight control of alloy BHN.

So what does this have to do with this thread on Hi Tek? Well it works even with the cheap stuff. Oh, by the way, it is cheap to use. That's me, old squeeze a penny till it yells Avenger442.

[Ausglock]

thanks for the cue ausglock. i've sent him a message to see what he can do for my mighty fourty's . if he can make me a mold, i would resell my lyman moulds to a friend who is in need . he's broken atm and would sell him my lyman for half the price.

He made me a 210gn FP 40 mold. A few guys here that compete internationally, wanted a heavy 40 bullet. Tom made the 5 cavity handcast mold. I made 1000 and handed them out to the guys to try. All are impressed with the accuracy. I now need Tom to cut 6 sets of molds for the autocaster.

Hitek. Stop perving on my knees, ya sicko...lol

[dikman]

Avenger, I only shoot Single Action cowboy stuff (pistol calibre), so perfection in alloy and boolit weight isn't critical to me, but I find your efforts at pushing the limits with rifle calibres and Hi-Tek fascinating. Keep up the good work.

[TonyN]

I have a 44 SWC Keith Style mold from my master caster I use I would like to sell if you guys want to buy it. I'm just glad I finally got the Hi-tek to work lol.

[Avenger442]

Avenger, I only shoot Single Action cowboy stuff (pistol calibre), so perfection in alloy and boolit weight isn't critical to me, but I find your efforts at pushing the limits with rifle calibres and Hi-Tek fascinating. Keep up the good work.

I appreciate the fascination. But it all just fun right? And I have high regard for those that compete. Takes steady hands, good eyes and mental concentration. There are some guys that shoot Cowboy every other Sunday at the range near my house. I get to hear the bang bang bang after church.

Tony
It has been a long road for you. But glad to see you got it working. Now the fun part:Fire::Fire::Fire:.

Hopefully the weather will let me test the PC and Hi Tek 38 Specials this week. Longest period of lows in the teens and highs just at freezing we have had in a long time. Lake still had ice in it until yesterday. Whipped up a homemade adjustable rest out of scrap and some parts from my rifle rest that looks like it will take most of the shooters bad habits out of the equation. Not a Ransom rest but okay.

[dikman]

Yep, it is all about having fun! Most that shoot Cowboy do it for fun, although there's always the few who like to win (it's actually not as easy as it looks, doesn't matter how big or how close the target I still manage to miss!!!!).

We've got the opposite problem at the moment - it's too bloody hot to shoot! It was 42*C the other day in the shade and my solar hot water pressure/temperature relief valve tripped. The water coming out was steaming (it's mounted on the roof). More 40's coming, so no smelting, casting or coating for me!

[TonyN]

Avenger442 ya it's been in the teens and even got to -10 here in days. The Hi-Tek that I have maid up in my bottles still work even with the bitter cold. My next step is getting my house oven to work with large amounts of projectiles with this Hi-Tek. I have one for PC that I use. I would like to find someone who has the same kind of oven so I can find out what they do to get mine to properly work. I found a full size house Convection oven that has a fan in it. His wanting 350. For it. I wouldn't mind paying that but I don't know and can't find any info on how good the house Convection ovens move air and if they would work any better then without a fan.

[Grmps]

How many boolits are you planning to coat at one time? I have an Oster Extra-Large convection countertop oven and can bake 2 8-pound trays of boolits at one time

[ioon44]

I paid $75.00 for my house convection from a second hand appliance shop, you need to shop around. I run 2 trays with 6 pounds on each tray for 12 min, I could possibly use less baking time but I hate to mess with success.

[TonyN]

Well my oven I bake with PC I do 30 lbs at a time. I cast and coat 4k at a time. Right now I'm baking 5 lbs at a time for 10 min.. It seems like nothing at 5 lbs compared to the 30 lbs. I could do another 15 lbs of I had the 3rd rack. PC is stupid easy to bake compared to Hi-Tek.

[TonyN]

I paid $75.00 for my house convection from a second hand appliance shop, you need to shop around. I run 2 trays with 6 pounds on each tray for 12 min, I could possibly use less baking time but I hate to mess with success.

Does your oven seem to push a good amount of air? Con you hear the fan blowing when it's running?

[benellinut]

Tony, I wouldn't spend that much for a used oven for coating. Around here the big appliance retailers including Lowes, Home Depot, Sears, (and many smaller) will haul away your old one when they deliver the new one, they take the old appliances to the junk yard. If you ask around, pad some workers palms, you probably will find someone who works in one of these places that would let you have one that may be ugly but still have a functioning convection oven on the cheap. Most folks replace a stove because it's dated, getting ugly or there is a problem with the logic board and would cost more to repair then it's worth, even if you had to replace the oven heating elements they don't cost that much. Unless you have a use for the top burners who cares? I wouldn't care if the logic board was bad, I'd run the oven off a PDI with new thermocouples anyways. You could also ask the junk yards to let you know when they get a load of stoves from these places, they are always looking to make a buck.

My plans are to eventually do the same thing, I plan on striping it down, remove the top section with the burners and lower pan storage drawer, cut the shell down to just contain the oven, add a bit extra insulation & sheet metal to enclose where needed and wire it to a PDI, I don't want it to take up anymore space in my shop then necessary. Just my thoughts.

[dikman]

I believe that is what Trev did, removed all the electronics and rewired it to keep it simple. I would do that except I haven't got the room for one!

[TonyN]

Anyone have info on what to do and buy? Any videos or anything?I'll do this also buy need videos or something. Like part names and what not. How many lbs could I exspect to coatnot one time?

[TonyN]

Could someone sent me the link to a PID tonrun my Manuel oven. Its 220 amp.

[Grmps]

I'm assuming you meant 220 volts,
Electric Range - 220 - 240 volt, 60 hertz, properly grounded circuit with 40 amp breaker or fuse protection with #8 gauge wire. With a 50 amp breaker, # 6 gauge wire is required.

HATCH a mod & VS here sells them, I believe OBII [really nice guy] and several other members sell them occasionally. Haven't seen OBII around for a while.

[eljefeoz]

I've come across sporadic reports of HITEK in rifle bullets.
I have used BHN 12-14 ( and even softer stuff !) with no leading &good accuracy in 7x57,9.3x62 and .404J-all at approx 18-1900 fps.
Plan is to kick up the velocity to over 2000fps -Ive done 1940 fps with RCBS SIL 145gr 0.285 and 2 coats of Bronze 502 in the 7x57.2" group benched, no leading.
A new tub of Texas Tea is enroute.
Without going to BHN in the 30's how fast have people gone with standard, hunting hardness coated loads in rifles?
TIA

[ioon44]

Does your oven seem to push a good amount of air? Con you hear the fan blowing when it's running?


My oven has a 6" fan in the back of it and I can hear it running and pushes air out of the top vent. My oven is what is called a built in so it doesn't have top burners.

[TonyN]

I'm assuming you meant 220 volts,
Electric Range - 220 - 240 volt, 60 hertz, properly grounded circuit with 40 amp breaker or fuse protection with #8 gauge wire. With a 50 amp breaker, # 6 gauge wire is required.

HATCH a mod & VS here sells them, I believe OBII [really nice guy] and several other members sell them occasionally. Haven't seen OBII around for a while.

Yes Sir.

[Avenger442]

I've come across sporadic reports of HITEK in rifle bullets.
I have used BHN 12-14 ( and even softer stuff !) with no leading &good accuracy in 7x57,9.3x62 and .404J-all at approx 18-1900 fps.
Plan is to kick up the velocity to over 2000fps -Ive done 1940 fps with RCBS SIL 145gr 0.285 and 2 coats of Bronze 502 in the 7x57.2" group benched, no leading.
A new tub of Texas Tea is enroute.
Without going to BHN in the 30's how fast have people gone with standard, hunting hardness coated loads in rifles?
TIA

My most accurate bullet is a .308 around 14 BHN speeds to around 2600 fps. Typical groups 1 1/2 inch 100 yards. In fact, if I take this bullet and increase the speed above 2600, have shot it above 2700fps, or the BHN, last try was 17 BHN, it seems to loose some of it's accuracy. I coated most of these with the liquid version of Gold 1035 three coats. I'm told the powder version of Gold 1035 is the same. I have also used the Bronze 500 powder and some of the non metallic coatings at speeds around 2400-2600 fps. I believe the fastest I have pushed a bullet with Hi Tek is a little over 3000 fps. But that was in .224 and the BHN was 20+. Oh, left out the most important part. No lead in the barrel.

The only time I had leading in my rifle with Hi Tek was when a guy that shoots Garand asked me if I thought I could shoot the .308s with no gas checks and enough pressure to operate the semi auto. I'm not sure if he was doing it with no gas check in what ever he was using. Anyway I tried it with what I knew would operate the rifle, pressure producing about 2700 fps and had minor leading last inch of the 24 inch barrel. And shots were not anywhere near the target. Been some time ago but as I remember BHN of that lead was around 12. Mold was a design for gas check which I'm sure didn't help. That was back when I first started using the coating. I probably could have dropped the pressure down to produce speeds of 2000 fps or lower and not had a problem. But I didn't go back and revisit it.

[eljefeoz]

Thanks Avenger
14 BHN at 2600fps?
there's hope for me yet... ;)

Am happy in a way, that the 2 coat-bake cycles will add an element of annealing. I mostly air cool them, except for one lot of 7mm which Ive water dropped to move them faster.
am looking forward to fun times, trying to get them past 2000fps in the .404!!
I think the .404 380 grains were just about 8BHN IIRC, been a while since I last loaded some.
A mate got some foundry type, with I think a BHN of 30. we cut it down to 18BHN, when tested with the Lee tester, and cast 160gr SAECO 0.285" pills with it, with 2 coats of Bronze 502.Lets see how it does in his 7 Rem mag

[eljefeoz]

At 475 pages, I have to index the pages in my reloading notebook and take pics of the posts relevant to me.
Would it be worthwhile starting a separate thread on HITEK in rifles ?
What say the 'mob of colours' ?
Cheers

[Avenger442]

eljefeoz
.404 at 2000 fps I know you guys don't go elephant hunting in Oz. That must knock pretty much anything on it's butt. Your probably shooting it for the same reason I shoot 45-70. Like to have your shoulder sore. In any case, the Hi Tek should be able to handle that big bullet at over 2000.

I have a theory that I have been meaning to read up on and maybe do a little testing. The smaller the lead bullet the more protection it needs. It has probably been covered before somewhere. We have some on this forum that believe that revolutions per minute and not pressure is the biggest contributing factor in lube failure when shooting lead. Of course raise one and you raise the other. Their point is reducing the twist helps reduce leading. But then you get into stabilization of the bullet. It would seem that a .223 would be spinning faster than say .45 all other factors being the same. Using the theory the .223 would need more protection than the .45. Hmm another thing to do. Maybe start with some .223 at 8 BHN three coats of Hi Tek and shoot it faster till it leads the barrel then do the same with a 45-70.:bigsmyl2:

[HI-TEK]

eljefeoz
.404 at 2000 fps I know you guys don't go elephant hunting in Oz. That must knock pretty much anything on it's butt. Your probably shooting it for the same reason I shoot 45-70. Like to have your shoulder sore. In any case, the Hi Tek should be able to handle that big bullet at over 2000.

I have a theory that I have been meaning to read up on and maybe do a little testing. The smaller the lead bullet the more protection it needs. It has probably been covered before somewhere. We have some on this forum that believe that revolutions per minute and not pressure is the biggest contributing factor in lube failure when shooting lead. Of course raise one and you raise the other. Their point is reducing the twist helps reduce leading. But then you get into stabilization of the bullet. It would seem that a .223 would be spinning faster than say .45 all other factors being the same. Using the theory the .223 would need more protection than the .45. Hmm another thing to do. Maybe start with some .223 at 8 BHN three coats of Hi Tek and shoot it faster till it leads the barrel then do the same with a 45-70.:bigsmyl2:

Avenger,
It seems, that you are becoming a researcher. This may progress to you writing a book of tests and results with all sort of calibres. It will sell millions......then, you will be able to afford a team of researchers and may be export Ausglock, and that way you will get the stirrer and results as well :drinks:

[Avenger442]

Avenger,
It seems, that you are becoming a researcher. This may progress to you writing a book of tests and results with all sort of calibres. It will sell millions......then, you will be able to afford a team of researchers and may be export Ausglock, and that way you will get the stirrer and results as well :drinks:

What I do with shooting is for fun and I promised myself that I would never let it turn into a business. I found once that when that was the purpose most of the fun melted. But you and Ausglock can come over and visit Donnie and me sometime in the States. I don't drink anymore but it sounds like you and Treavor might take up my part. Bet Donnie can find some good mud bugs. And I'll have root beer with mine. Love the stuff. We will have to meet at Donnie's place though. Our house is always a wreck.

By the way, I tested the Hi Tek and powder coated loads today and everything was bad. Same bullet weight same powder load. Speeds were all over the place with both HT and PC 600-800 fps. No real groups with either one best one was about 6" at 25 yards and I think that was an accident based on the others. I haven't gone back and reviewed the data yet but a casual look during testing was showing a standard deviation in the high 20s and low 30s. Way outside optimum of about 12. I tried to use what I had coated HT and PC same bullet and used a load that looked like it should work. And that looks like the problem. Bullets were same weight within a grain and groups were shot with bullets grouped within a tenth of a grain. Have to get with Slide and go with a different bullet in a load we both have found to be accurate. We have had some good groups with a Lee TL bullet and a different powder. This was a hollow point and Titegroup powder, I've had trouble with Tightgroup powder before. It is good from the standpoint of using so little to shoot. But if it is off a small amount it makes a big difference. Kinda like trying to mix enough HT to coat ten bullets. I thought that I could eliminate that with measuring every load to within a tenth of a grain, which I would have done for test anyway. Some guys have better luck with it or they wouldn't sell it. Didn't work with these 38 specials. Only good thing was the homemade rest worked well.

To top it off my truck's trans was giving me a problem today. It's an automatic and the thing will not shift out of high gear. Headed to mechanic tomorrow.

[slide]

When you get ready let me know and I will send some bullets.

[Avenger442]

When you get ready let me know and I will send some bullets.

Sent PM.

[eljefeoz]

Avenger
Yup. Looking at a a BHN 8-12 BHN 380 Gr at 2000 fps to make things go zing.
I took up CB after years of big bore shooting and 3 procedures on my shoulder. Now it looks like I can’t get enough of CB fun. The long rolling push of most of the Brit doubles is far welcome , compared to the nasty wham of a .378 or .460 wea.
A 0.285 154 Gr RCBS Sil with 3 coats of HITEK at 2400 fps is my plan. As compared to a 380 Gr 0.425” in .404 with a single coat of zombie green, running at 2000 fps.
Have some fun planned in the coming weeks and I will get back with the results.
Cheers.

[smlekid]

Hi all sorry if this question has already been asked but with 475 pages there's a lot of reading to get through!!
I normally cook 4Ib's of bullets in 9mm 357 and 45 for 10-12 minutes my question is I just cast up 4Ib's of 37gr .225" calibre Boolits (830 approximately) I think I will have to do these in 2Ib lots so around 400 will this effect my baking times?

[Ausglock]

Smelly.
The only thing that could happen is that the colour you are using will darken a bit.
Stay with what is working as far as time and temp goes. don't change anything, just bake the smaller amounts.

[dikman]

I work on a batch weight of just under 2 kgs, regardless of boolit size (.38 or .44). Works for me.

I suppose your smaller boolits could heat up a bit quicker individually, but with more of them you've still got a large mass to heat up so I don't see why it should be a problem. Only way to is to try it and see what the outcome is.

[smlekid]

Thanks guys I'll give it a try my candy apple red seems to come out more like copper anyway seems to work well though

[TonyN]

So I found a house oven that the guy said it's a speed oven. Its a older model. I take it it's the same as a convection oven? I can get one for 200. You all know how hard it's been for me. Do you guys know for sure if the full size house ovens have enough air movement for Hi-Tek? I don't want to have to modify it any.