simple Hi-Tek coating

[cityofthesouth]

Those look really good! Well done!!

Thanks slide!

[Avenger442]

May just be my imagination. But the powders with metallic seem to settle quicker than the liquid version did. But always have shaken both for five minutes (an Ausglock suggestion from a long time ago) during the mixing or before first use after sitting a few days and about a minute for second or third coats in a coating session.

Those are some fine looking bullets. I'm jealous. Magnified the photo and they still look better than most of the ones out of my coating sessions.

[HI-TEK]

May just be my imagination. But the powders with metallic seem to settle quicker than the liquid version did. But always have shaken both for five minutes (an Ausglock suggestion from a long time ago) during the mixing or before first use after sitting a few days and about a minute for second or third coats in a coating session.

Those are some fine looking bullets. I'm jealous. Magnified the photo and they still look better than most of the ones out of my coating sessions.

Avenger, your observations may be correct.
I am aware, that liquid versions do build viscosity, so a suspension may be more stable and slower to settle. Powdered coatings, not being in solvent systems may be much more stable with viscosity build. Both powders and liquids use same ingredients, and the only thing missing with Powders is solvent.

With posted coated projectiles, I have been very impressed with the great quality of coated projectiles that people have produced. Great work...

[slide]

snscasting,it just dawned on me who you are. I used to buy bullets from you until I started casting my own. They were top notch quality. Welcome aboard!

[snscasting]

snscasting,it just dawned on me who you are. I used to buy bullets from you until I started casting my own. They were top notch quality. Welcome aboard!

Thank you! This forum is one hell of a resource!

[slide]

You will be a good source yourself. I'll bet you have coated a bunch.

[cityofthesouth]

I have, mostly by accident, trial, error, been using a thinner mix than the instructions. I have to tumble them a little longer but I like the extra time and I roll them onto my tray the very second the coating starts to thicken. I don't wait for them to be sticky (that change in sound while tumbling) but I also make sure to wait long enough that the coating isn't runny - there is that perfect moment in between. And if I miss the window i just splash a little acetone in my container and start over with the tumbling. For me the coating ends up looking smoother. I use the 10 minutes while the other tray is in the oven to first hit them with the heat gun - immediately after I drop them just to flash off any remaining acetone - and then let the fan blow on them while they sit waiting for the other batch to come out. I know I waste some material this way, but I got the smallest container of black and to me that's still highly cost effective - 10 thousand 9mm bullets or so by the time I use what's left now. I bought the medium size container of cherry this time and it arrived yesterday so hopefully some red bullets to show you guys soon.

[slide]

It seems like everybody develops their own style. I think some of it has to do with what part of the country or should I say what part of the world you are living in. Big differences in weather conditions. Your bullets look great,if they shoot good with no leading sounds like you have your system down pat. It is fun to experiment though!

[popper]

Been experimenting with some really soft alloy in 30/30 & BLL. Works OK with GC but fails PB, so. I coated the bases with the ole liquid dark green. First try was dabbing a light coat with a brush. Then I just tried dipping the bases in mix without acetone. Bubbles from first coat/cook, none with just dipping. Interesting. Didn't test wipe or smash but no problems in sizing. Range report when the heat and rain slow down.
201140

[Avenger442]

Been experimenting with some really soft alloy in 30/30 & BLL. Works OK with GC but fails PB, so. I coated the bases with the ole liquid dark green. First try was dabbing a light coat with a brush. Then I just tried dipping the bases in mix without acetone. Bubbles from first coat/cook, none with just dipping. Interesting. Didn't test wipe or smash but no problems in sizing. Range report when the heat and rain slow down.
201140

I just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to find out. Are you trying to see if the coating can protect the base from pressure? Heat? I mean the coating is meant to be just a lube. Granted, a high temperature lube. But still a lube.

Based on my test with no gas check and about the same pressures I usually shoot them the .308s left some lead and were not accurate. I would think that the coating would not help like a gas check. I was going to go back and shoot some of those with a much lighter load but never got around to it. Think I've talked myself out of it now. Why a 1800 FPS .308? The only reason I tried it in the first place was to answer a question asked by a guy shooting Garrand or maybe it was M-14. He was wanting to know if he could shoot plain base with the coating. Answer was no I guess since both need pressure to cycle.

It just came to me. You powder coat. Why don't you also powder coat a few bases and see if that will work, too. I would be interested to see if it can be used like a gas check. I don't really like installing them. Might be a reason to start doing some PC.

Let us know what you find out. Hope it works.

[popper]

I would think that the coating would not help like a gas check. That is what I'm going to find out. An experiment for my really soft alloy PB in the Marlin 30/30 (Pb/Cu/Zn hopefully to 1800 fps). Posted here as I was surprised at the coating by just dipping in the color/cat only mix. Did OK with cooking & sizing - sticks good. Too much trouble to PC just the base.
shoot plain base with the coating I run a 145gr PB to 2100 fps in BO, haven't tried it in the AR10. It is not a soft alloy.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4117983]I just want to make sure I understand what you are trying to find out. Are you trying to see if the coating can protect the base from pressure? Heat? I mean the coating is meant to be just a lube. Granted, a high temperature lube. But still a lube.

Avenger,
The Hi-Tek acts like a lube and also a heat shield to an extent.
We already know, the coatings significantly reduces heat transfer rates, and heat transfer rates significantly are reduced when thickness of coatings are increased.

On the bases, where heat and pressure occurs, it can be theorised, that the coating only has to survive long enough whilst in the barrel to reflect away heat from alloy.

As far as I know, no one has ever worked out just how much coating film thickness can work to act as a gas check in various load and calibre conditions .

As Far as I can determine, gas checks seem to spread out heat by conduction and even out pressure evenly on the rear of alloy, and with gas check alloy edge "spreading", then seems to seal edges to stop gas cutting.

If we reverse ideas a little, if the Hi-Tek does not conduct heat, and reflects it instead, when alloy "spreads" at the rear, this should seal bore at the end, and, as heat is being reflected, the possibility of coating protecting the alloy should also increase. But by how much, it is a good guess. I suppose the only way to find out is try and see.
Hi-Tek

[popper]

Hi Joe. I asked you but did the experiment before an answer. The liquid green coating doesn't appear to out gas and cause bubbles without the acetone.

[HI-TEK]

Hi Joe. I asked you but did the experiment before an answer. The liquid green coating doesn't appear to out gas and cause bubbles without the acetone.

Thanks Popper,
I was just thinking (that is dangerous), I wonder if the powdered versions are made into a sticky paste consistency with MEK or Acetone, and bases dipped, how would such brew work after drying and baking?
All coatings should produce similar outgassing properties, Solvent based systems may give more outgassing due to moisture absorption entrapment.

[Ausglock]

I assume everyone that visits this thread has donated to the gunloads funding drive??????
I have. This is a far too valuable resource to be let disappear.

[HI-TEK]

I assume everyone that visits this thread has donated to the gunloads funding drive??????
I have. This is a far too valuable resource to be let disappear.

I have donated also. Great blog site with tremendous wealth of good information from dedicated people.

[dikman]

Thanks Popper,
I was just thinking (that is dangerous), I wonder if the powdered versions are made into a sticky paste consistency with MEK or Acetone, and bases dipped, how would such brew work after drying and baking?
All coatings should produce similar outgassing properties, Solvent based systems may give more outgassing due to moisture absorption entrapment.

I thought one of the major issues with the coating is applying it too thick, so it doesn't bond properly? Just curious, because if it can be applied thick it may have other possible uses.

[Avenger442]

Like I said, my experiment with plain base was not necessarily a good one since the foot per second was around 2500. That means the pressure was well over what a plain base bullet at around 12-14 BHN (as I remember) would probably take with any type of lube or protection other than gas check. They did have three coats of Hi Tek. Looks like 1800 fps could work. That was what I was going to shoot for in the rounds I was using next. Just got tied up with the fascination of 1" groups. And of course my Granddaughters love of burning my gun powder.

dikman; I was thinking the same thing. But as I remember the mixture of the liquid components in older version of Hi Tek is fairly thin so it might not build up a thick coat dipping.

Based on what Joe said Popper may have found a new use for Hi Tek. Like I said hope it works.

Popper I was thinking through what you said about too much trouble to PC bases and I can't come up with a way that would be simple. But I don't do PC. Something with holes the same size as the bullet. Bullet stuck through it with the bases exposed. Would have to be somewhat rigid and supported underneath?????? Your right, too much trouble. Not near as easy as dipping.

Talked to the guy that runs the range across the road from where I live. I collect range lead there sometimes but have never shot there due to the fees. Reason for the trip was he had talked earlier about a 300 yard range. Which might change my mind about fee. He still doesn't have one. But he was interested in shooting some of the bullets with Hi Tek in his .45. Another customer? But I am not turning my hobby into a business!!!! Those may be famous last words.

[benellinut]

Don't want to wander off topic, just a quick question then back to coating chat. Would hi-tek also stick to aluminum? I make these electronic cigarettes "mods" (I'm five years free of cigs and two years a cancer survivor, yay!!) I make these out of diecast aluminum project boxes, openings cut with files then brush finished. It hit me tonight, wonder if hi-tek would work on these?
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/attachments/dsc01812c-jpg.676993/

[Ausglock]

HITEK sticks to copper. Maybe try a piece of scrap and see.

[HI-TEK]

Don't want to wander off topic, just a quick question then back to coating chat. Would hi-tek also stick to aluminum? I make these electronic cigarettes "mods" (I'm five years free of cigs and two years a cancer survivor, yay!!) I make these out of diecast aluminum project boxes, openings cut with files then brush finished. It hit me tonight, wonder if hi-tek would work on these?
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/attachments/dsc01812c-jpg.676993/

benellinut,
I tried coatings on Aluminium previously. No success. I am almost 99% sure that
Aluminium and other more reactive metals cause poor adhesion of coatings.
I am aware, that many coatings that are applied to various Aluminium surfaces are only achieved after Chemical pre-treatment of those metals, some of which are Anodising in acid type baths using speciality in house recipes.

[dikman]

I've been pondering this for some time. The problem I see is how to get the coating on a flat surface (the lid) or on a multi-sided object (the box). Tumbling is unlikely to be very effective and unfortunately it can't be sprayed - one of our club members (a spray painter) tried it and according to him it didn't work. Dipping it and then hanging to drain is the only thing I can think of but I'm not sure how successful that will be.

Just saw Joe's reply. As those boxes are diecast alloy I guess it won't work. How about steel, or stainless steel?

[benellinut]

Thanks for the replies guys.

we now take you back to your regular programming already in progress

[popper]

I don't think the dip method would give a good texture. I'd try the old commercial 'hammertone' finish - hard and in different colors, kinda neat looking. ESPC could work but reject rate could be high. Those would look neat with some 'engine turned' finish on some areas, then clear acrylic. Round pencil eraser in a slow turned drill works.

[asmith80]

I think I've got a snag with my Hi-Tek adventures. I cast up another batch of boolits and coated them the same way I did with the previous batch but I'm starting to get leading in my barrels. I've got a post going in the handgun sub forum that details everything I've done so far. I'm at a loss for what else can be causing it, I hope done if you Hi-Tek gurus can shed some light

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?340630-yet-another-9mm-leading-thread

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s142/adamjsmith80/IMG_20170809_124008927_zpsy061aoqe.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/adamjsmith80/media/IMG_20170809_124008927_zpsy061aoqe.jpg.html)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s142/adamjsmith80/IMG_20170809_124029202_zpsncdkmblg.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/adamjsmith80/media/IMG_20170809_124029202_zpsncdkmblg.jpg.html)

[Gremlin460]

All my leading from Hi-tec came from too low a bhn of the lead and casts sized wrong for the barrel... 4 years now no lead using Hitec.

[HI-TEK]

All my leading from Hi-tec came from too low a bhn of the lead and casts sized wrong for the barrel... 4 years now no lead using Hitec.

How are you doing Gremlin.
I missed your great inputs.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, I make coatings, advise on coatings and hopefully pass on some information that may be useful to users.
However, I may not put my comments in such a way that is accepted as being constructive, and I get hammered for it.
Great results seem to be ignored, but some seem to focus on a problematic area, and blame the coatings, without providing any other useful information that may shed a light why things go wrong. It is quite disappointing situation.
These coatings have been on the market for 25 or so years, and work for 99% plus of applications and with many hundreds of thousands of satisfied users.
I have to admit, some will never be convinced, and I accept that. I never wanted any controversy or conflict about comparing one product against another.
Hi-Tek

[asmith80]

Seems like I had a couple different issues going on that contributed to the leading, but none of them were because of the Hi-Tek. I'm a happy convert

[AbitNutz]

No system is perfect but I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where conventionally sized and lubed bullets are superior to Hi-Tek.

I'm a total convert. I now order molds that I believe will do well with Hi-Tek. I have no intention of breaking out my old lubrisizers. All my new aquizitions have no lube grooves or if I have no chice, very high bearing surfaces...like the 38-148 WC DBB SGG Magma I got off of eBay. It's all bearing surface with a small, single grease groove.

[popper]

201705 170gr PB with base hiTek dipped, somewhere above 1600 fps with real soft alloy & 2x BLL. Did good till the MG marlin leaded (not too bad though).

[Grmps]

I think what Joe is saying, If a boolits size, weight, BHN, and profile shoots without leading lubed, it will do as good if not better with Hi-Tek without the mess.

[HI-TEK]

201705 170gr PB with base hiTek dipped, somewhere above 1600 fps with real soft alloy & 2x BLL. Did good till the MG marlin leaded (not too bad though).

Hi Popper,
That looks great.
Did you dip casts into suggested mix to act as a gas check? If not what recipe did you use?
I find it interesting, that you ended up using soft Lead to get those speeds and accuracy and not have a problem.
Your experiment seems to support possibility of using softer alloys and get acceptable results.

I am not familiar with MG Marlin. My closest idea is a Marlin the fish....LOL

[popper]

Base dipped in liquid color/catalyst mix only, no acetone. Lube used was BLL. Had problem with BLL only and SOFT alloy leading on first shots. HiTek is enough to prevent initial base gas cutting that the BLL doesn't get blown off. Micro groove has a very shallow rifling so needs a harder alloy to prevent stripping. I'll use coating on this alloy as ESPC protects the base and is hard enough that stripping doesn't occur. So far PC works good at near top loads in 40sw and 30/30 for really SOFT alloy. Just another trick for the toolbox.
Anyway, after 30 shots (some were real GC loads) leading was evident but not terrible.

[Avenger442]

HI Tek Works for me in everything I want to shoot and the way I want to shoot it.

Joe
I wouldn't get too discouraged about the complaint to praise ratio. I don't know about you guys over there, but here in the US we seem to tend more toward the complaint rather than the compliment. Guys that are not having a problem just go on using it and don't say much. I'd give my opinion of Craftsman lawn mowers at this point but it would be off topic. Mines broke down for the hundredth time.

Like I said in one of my first post on this thread. I'm going to try it and report back what I find good or bad.

Popper
I have heard that PC is tough. And your right need all the tools we can get. If I could come up with and reason for a 1800 fps .308 bullet I might go back and visit the no gas check in rifle. I guess if I only had low BHN lead available it might be useful. I do shoot no gas check in my .44 magnum rifle. But that's a bigger bullet with different stresses and pressure.

AbitNutz
Sometimes I work on a '70 model Olds 442. It sits in the basement waiting on me. I try to keep it looking old school original. I could modify it and make it half again faster, easier to drive, add more stopping power, etc. But to me that ruins what I remember it to be. The grease/wax lubes are still relevant in the sense that they are old school way. It is important for some to keep it like they did it in the early days of shooting. That's one of the reasons muzzle loading is still around. And, unlike Hi Tek or PC, they don't require electricity to apply if done the old way. Something that one day might be important. Like paper patch, the wax/grease keeps the loads old school. I remember someone making a comment about the movie Quigley Down Under a few years ago and how they could see the paper patch on the bullet. How they loved the old school look and appreciated the people making the movie with an original look. I've always wanted one of those old school guns that could accurately shoot 600 yards with a paper patch. But dollars going elsewhere and that gun is bigger bucks than I've got. There will always be a place for old school in guns just like there is one in cars. And there will always be guys making arguments for both sides. And the rest of us in the middle.

[Grmps]

I concur with Avenger. It is easier to complain when they have made a mistake and blame it on the product than admit they didn't do it right. People are much more likely to complain when they think something went wrong than praise when everything goes right.

It only makes sense that people have been buying and using Hi-Tek for 25+ years because it doesn't work?[smilie=l:

[bfuller14]

Grmps, That is so good, and true......

[Kitika]

Had a good day at the range today probably shot 50+ rounds through my sharps with hitek coated soft lead projies with no leading and held all but one of my scoring shots on the 1000yd target. First time at that distance :) pretty happy!
Got my parcel of new hitek colours a couple of weeks ago and used the Texas tea on 3000 of casts. Goes on well and doesnt smell any where near as strong as the red copper does when it is baking? I thought it was odd but much more pleasant than the copper because I have to clear out of the shed when that's baking it's potent! Next to try will be gold!

[cityofthesouth]

Cherry showed up, converted some wheel weights into bullets and here we go. First run with the Cherry and basically same results as the black - nice and slick. Probably obvious but these have been sized already. Looks like there is a little metallic in this color? I like it. I'm calling them Iron Man bullets.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4375/36384513412_84f1d74c89_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Xrb9dL)BlackCherry_HiTek (https://flic.kr/p/Xrb9dL) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

Couple black ones lurking in the container as well.

I'd say the amount of HiTek coated bullets I see on the range at my local 3-gun club says quite a bit about happy customers. Who knows how many bizillion bullets are sold commercially with it vs DIY guys like us.

[Avenger442]

Had a good day at the range today probably shot 50+ rounds through my sharps with hitek coated soft lead projies with no leading and held all but one of my scoring shots on the 1000yd target. First time at that distance :) pretty happy!
Got my parcel of new hitek colours a couple of weeks ago and used the Texas tea on 3000 of casts. Goes on well and doesnt smell any where near as strong as the red copper does when it is baking? I thought it was odd but much more pleasant than the copper because I have to clear out of the shed when that's baking it's potent! Next to try will be gold!

Your last name isn't Quigley is it?:kidding:

Which one of the Golds do you have? And would love to see a photo of your rifle. Love those big bullets.

[Avenger442]

Cherry showed up, converted some wheel weights into bullets and here we go. First run with the Cherry and basically same results as the black - nice and slick. Probably obvious but these have been sized already. Looks like there is a little metallic in this color? I like it. I'm calling them Iron Man bullets.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4375/36384513412_84f1d74c89_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Xrb9dL)BlackCherry_HiTek (https://flic.kr/p/Xrb9dL) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

Couple black ones lurking in the container as well.

I'd say the amount of HiTek coated bullets I see on the range at my local 3-gun club says quite a bit about happy customers. Who knows how many bizillion bullets are sold commercially with it vs DIY guys like us.

You're right those do look like Ironman colors. Maybe we should contact Stark and see if he needs to coat his armor:mrgreen:. Might even get it done free for the endorsement.

[MAGA]

Is it better to use the liquid coating and hardener? or order the powder and mix with acetone?
Also is one more shelf stable? Or do they both mix back up good after sitting a long time?
Is either one easier to get good results with?

[Ausglock]

Same. But the powder is easier to mix correctly if you are a no good at maths.

[Grmps]

Powder is also cheaper to ship.

[cityofthesouth]

You're right those do look like Ironman colors. Maybe we should contact Stark and see if he needs to coat his armor:mrgreen:. Might even get it done free for the endorsement.

Haha! Maybe so.




Is it better to use the liquid coating and hardener? or order the powder and mix with acetone?
Also is one more shelf stable? Or do they both mix back up good after sitting a long time?
Is either one easier to get good results with?

I have been using the powder and I can't see any reason to stop. As far as it sitting around, I don't see much reason to let it sit around, but with that said, whenever I have a little left over I've had it sitting around for a couple weeks and still used it. So long as the acetone isn't evaporating from whatever container you use it should be fine. Saw some folks on youtube mixing in paint cans and sealing them up for future use with good success too. Plus the no good at maths thing fits me pretty well.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Coated 12 or so pounds of lee 356-120TC last night.
1 ML per pound is just about perfect. 2 coats was near perfection and I went with a third coat as the alloy was a little lean and the bullets were dropping small. I was hoping to bump up the diameter that tiny bit I needed.

Can't wait to coat my RCBS 44-250K this week.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=popper;4123709]Base dipped in liquid color/catalyst mix only, no acetone. Lube used was BLL. Had problem with BLL only and SOFT alloy leading on first shots. HiTek is enough to prevent initial base gas cutting that the BLL doesn't get blown off.

Hi Popper,
Just so I can understand things, you dipped the tail end of cast into Hi-Tek concentrate plus Catalyst, without using diluent solvent. Is that correct?
How far did you dip tail ends into concentrate mixture?

Please advise, what is BBL lube? I am not familiar with that product or description.

Did you dip after you first coated, or did you dip before applying coatings and baking?

Did you size after all was complete? What was final diameter to bore diameter?

Can you please elaborate.

I am wondering what may have been final coating thickness on base that protected the alloy?
I believe that a mix made from powdered Hi-Tek may also work the same way.

If coatings can be successful as a replacement to gas checks, I am sure many want to learn from your testing. It will significantly save gas check preparation if just the coating is used instead, and alloy is sized to correct diameter.
Please advise
Hi-Tek

[popper]

BLL is a wax lube that was applied after base coating. I dipped the base in about 1/10". No acetone. Sized after coating and before BLL. The rifle barrel leaded but the alloy is almost pure, very soft. No intention of trying for a GC replacement.

[HI-TEK]

BLL is a wax lube that was applied after base coating. I dipped the base in about 1/10". No acetone. Sized after coating and before BLL. The rifle barrel leaded but the alloy is almost pure, very soft. No intention of trying for a GC replacement.

Thanks Popper.
Would you envisage if you had same result if the soft alloy was Gas checked and coated as well?
From what I have seen over years, most waxes really cannot stop Leading, especially soft alloys.

On another track would sizing slightly more over size assist with Leading reductions when using a coated, Gas checked soft Lead alloy?

[popper]

Yes, GC loads worked fine - not the best accuracy but then the alloy is really soft. I was testing alloy, not lube or coating but ran into leading problems on the PB. I don't plan to use the HiTek for GC substitute, just coat the whole boolit. I did notice that the liquid stuff didn't produce any bubbles or rough spots, primarily why I posted.

[dansedgli]

I got my new mold up and running tonight. No lube groove bullets are way easier to cast.

Last time i baked hitek i had just fitted a pid to my convection oven. The coating was flakey compared to the previous time with no pid. The temp seemed consistent with both.

Any idea where to start to fix it?

202170

[wlkjr]

Go back to the way it worked before. If it's not broke, sometimes trying to fix it is counterproductive.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=dansedgli;4129559]I got my new mold up and running tonight. No lube groove bullets are way easier to cast.

Last time i baked hitek i had just fitted a pid to my convection oven. The coating was flakey compared to the previous time with no pid. The temp seemed consistent with both.

Any idea where to start to fix it?


Just a rough idea on what is different, and based on your no PID and PID control is, that before PID you may have had much slower heat response from temperature sensor, and heating/baking was slower. With PID, heat recovery seems more quick, and from your descriptions "flaky" with PID, my other guess is that coating was not dry with first coat.

[Avenger442]

Well another trip to the range and have verified under an inch group that I had last time. One group was four shots in just over 1/2" with a flyer. Total group was about 2" with the flyer. Had my scope tuned to the load this time and all were right on. My reading on the speed say the flyer was probably due to a bullet speed about 300 fps slower than the rest. SD for the four was 10.1. I'm not sure the cause, yet, for the flyer. May have been something I did during loading. But this has been the kick I'm on lately. Getting rid of the flyer.

I have been convinced about Hi Tek in my .308 for a long time. But this idea of deburring the flash hole and uniforming the primer pocket was something new. While recommended by several knowledgeable sources, I didn't want to use it on all of my cases without some personal proof, it's a permanent thing. And it works like weight segregating the cases before loading. Which is something I remember being suggested to me back when I first started hand loading. Just didn't understand the need for doing it. The need is it tightens groups. Still a newbie at this. Something to learn or remember all of the time.

I haven't cast and coated in a while and I have some of the copper enriched lead left. It's going into the .308 mold that made the bullets for the under an inch groups. Going to be my hunting bullet.

[Ausglock]

I got my new mold up and running tonight. No lube groove bullets are way easier to cast.

Last time i baked hitek i had just fitted a pid to my convection oven. The coating was flakey compared to the previous time with no pid. The temp seemed consistent with both.

Any idea where to start to fix it?

202170

Accurate mold??? What size and weight?

[wlkjr]

Accurate mold??? What size and weight?
Looks like my 147Y

[dansedgli]

Accurate mold??? What size and weight?

168zk Trev. Need to catch Cloughy but dont have the budget. :violin:

[Ausglock]

168zk Trev. Need to catch Cloughy but dont have the budget. :violin:

Oh... you mean this one?

http://i.imgur.com/Sp4HGQb.jpg

I have a 4 cavity hand mould here if you want another...

[dansedgli]

Yep, but the quality wont be as good because my care factor is low and im the only customer. :drinks:

But these are free so i wont complain.

Thanks for the offer, i am ok with just the 1 mold for now.

I am still learning so dont want to get ahead of myself. I did 2 big batches for my 45 last year and hadnt done anymore casting until last week.

[MAGA]

Couple more questions...

Fixing to order some Hi- Tek supercoat powder, is there any colors that work better or give problems? I kinda like the black.
Also baking do I need to use a wire mesh type tray/basket? I have a little solid aluminum tray that came with the toaster oven and was gonna line it with nonstick aluminum foil but if mesh is better I will do that!
And just to confirm once the coating is dry dump into tray and kinda spread out right? No need to stand each individual bullet up to bake correct?

Many thanks!!

[Avenger442]

Couple more questions...

Fixing to order some Hi- Tek supercoat powder, is there any colors that work better or give problems? I kinda like the black.
Also baking do I need to use a wire mesh type tray/basket? I have a little solid aluminum tray that came with the toaster oven and was gonna line it with nonstick aluminum foil but if mesh is better I will do that!
And just to confirm once the coating is dry dump into tray and kinda spread out right? No need to stand each individual bullet up to bake correct?

Many thanks!!

It has been my experience that all of the coatings will work well I handguns. If I were going to use it in a rifle at normal to high rifle pressures I would use one of the coatings that include the metallic. Not that the others will not work, because I have used some non metallic in my rifles without any problems. I have lost track of all of the different blacks. But I believe the Black 1035 has a metallic component and there are others. Joe or Trevor might chime in here. And it might depend on which the seller here in the US has on hand. Donnie can answer that one.

Recommended that you use something to bake your bullets on that has a lot of perforations to promote air flow around bullets in the convection oven. I use wire trays. I think that Trevor has been using some type of perforated aluminum or stainless tray. Ebay has metal sheets with a lot of perforations. But the ones that come with the ovens do not have enough holes to promote proper circulation of the air. And please no aluminum foil need all the air circulation.

A toaster oven without convection (or fans circulating the air) can work. Not recommended. It's just that the bullets come out cooked at several different temps. So don't expect the same result from bullet to bullet on curing or color. Some wipe test might fail on some bullets and pass on others if cooked at the recommended time. Or you could just cook them an extra few minutes. That will darken the color on the ones that cook the hottest. Which will not matter with black colors. They should be black anyway. And you can cook a long time if you want. I haven't found the time that will cause a failure. I suppose there is a temp long after the lead melts???? I actually accidentally cooked in an oven that fan was not on during bake. Came out several different shades of the color I was looking for. Shot OK with no leading.

Yeah, not necessary to spend the time to stand on end , almost impossible with small caliber in a wire tray, just spread them out to dry. I have baked mine both ways with no discernible difference. After the coat before you bake them just spread let them dry. You can use wire drying tray specifically for that purpose. Or you can do what I do when I'm a bit lazy. Just dump them on the cooking tray to dry. Some guys, including myself sometimes, are placing trays on top of the oven to heat up and make sure they are dry before baking. Not absolutely necessary but they do need to be dry before baking.

Welcome to cooking boolets!

[Ausglock]

Mate....Not trying to be rude, But go read the HITEK do's and don'ts thread.
Everything you need to know is in there. It has been done to death.

[Avenger442]

Thank you Trevor. I had forgot about that. It's only 8 pages rather than 454. Every time we have a new user we need to send them there.

[benellinut]

HI-TEK do's and don'ts---> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?240450-HI-TEK-do-s-and-don-ts

[kevin c]

Update on my post #8980

Short version: HiTek working great with the new oven.

Longer version: I was getting a bit of wipe off with the Black Cherry mixed 20 grams measured to 120 ml acetone measured, well mixed, 6 ml coat to 5# casts, dried overnight and then baked with a cheap convection oven at a K probe measured 200 to 205 C even at 18 to 20 minutes.

The new Breville moves air better: less than 5 C variation in temp between 1" over and 1" under the tray, versus up to 20 C variation in the old oven. Temp recovery on opening the door was faster too (no heat holding thermal masses used). Dial temp only low by 5 C, and little fluctuation.

At first I still got wipe off at 16 to 18 minutes, but then realized my test technique of putting several coated bullets in with a full load of uncoated bullets (to save me the hassle of melting a whole batch of incorrect bakes) and pulling them out a pair at a time at two minute intervals to test for adequate polymerization was flawed - the oven temp would drop below threshold and would stiil be recovering the next time I opened the door, so all the bullets ended up with bake times that really did not vary much from start at 8 minutes to the end at 20 minutes.

Fiddling eventually got me to a K probe temp of 210 C over 14 minutes. The bullets come out with just the right Black Cherry color as posted here, now zero wipe off and no flaking on the smash test, and nothing in Glock factory bores except what brushes out easily with a dry phosphor bronze brusH (I'd gotten the latter results the very first time I coated, but only with the extra long bakes, which are consigned to the trash, as was the old oven).

Color me highly satisfied.

[Avenger442]

Works for me.:Fire:

[dansedgli]

I'm having a shambles of a week for coating. My own fault for not being patient. :(

3000 bullets need to be melted down as I'm having the coating scrape off when sizing. I have been using 100ml of acetone with 20g of powder. Mixing 1ml to 1 lb of bullets.

Can acetone go off? I am using a bottle I bought last year. Stored in the same bottle but I did use some of it last year.

With the suggestions above of my coating not being completely dry I coated and left them overnight in my garage before baking. Could the cold night air affect the coats? I was doing some loading one night this week and my gun had moisture on it from sitting on the bench for a few hours. It's maybe gotten down to 4 or 5 degrees celsius down here in melbourne.

[Ausglock]

Dan. pinch the old girls hair dryer and warm them to just above room temp.
Or. place the tray ontop of the oven while it is heating up.
This will dry the coating and you will be good to go.
Sure you don't want me to send you a care package????:mrgreen:

[dansedgli]

Thanks Trev but I'm hoping to have my own bullets sorted before I finish off these short fat tigersharks that don't feed in my gun.

I'll cast some more tomorrow and try warming them up first. It has to that or the acetone. I'm fairly sure I'm doing everything else the same as last year when it was working for me. It might have been warmer this time last year.

[Lakehouse2012]

Might also try taking a 100 of the bad ones just like they are and put in the oven again at a higher temp. Its not a problem to double bake.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[HI-TEK]

Might also try taking a 100 of the bad ones just like they are and put in the oven again at a higher temp. Its not a problem to double bake.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Trying to re cook is not going to fix problems of adhesion.
Once Hi-Tek coating is subjected to heat in an oven, with a second cook, it cannot be made to bond to the alloy if it did not bond the first time.
The coating has set with first cook. I am afraid that it is a re-melt job.
Drying well before cooking is only cure.
I have always tried to advise, to first, simply cook a few to test dryness.
If they fail, then dry the rest longer or continue to warm dry. Then re-test with only a few until they pass.
Just thinking that they are dry, especially in cool conditions and not testing first, will result in such problems.
Sorry.

[popper]

Joe, seems like toluene is the least hydroscopic of the solvents. Does it work well with HiTek? From my testing it is the water in the solvent that is the problem as well as the 'skinning' of the HiTek as it dries (holds moisture in). This begs the question of running @ 100C to cook the h2o out, then increasing to 200C for the bake. thoughts?
It appears that silica gel with cobalt added is good for drying solvents. The kind that changes from blue to pink when 'wet'. Used to dry lab chemicals. It appears that h2o has H bonds with the acetone so it's not just a mixture. Heat can break the bonds.

[Grmps]

A good fan really helps with the drying

[dansedgli]

Thanks guys.

I did more reading last night and found that dry to the touch doesnt always mean they are dry enough. This must be where ive gone wrong with the weather we've been having.

[Ausglock]

Dan. You got a fan/heater? $15 at Bunnings. sit the tray in front of it for 5 minutes to warm them up.
You need to move up here to the warmer climate, mate.
Get out of Mexico.

[dansedgli]

Ill go pick one up tomorrow.

[HI-TEK]

Joe, seems like toluene is the least hydroscopic of the solvents. Does it work well with HiTek? From my testing it is the water in the solvent that is the problem as well as the 'skinning' of the HiTek as it dries (holds moisture in). This begs the question of running @ 100C to cook the h2o out, then increasing to 200C for the bake. thoughts?
It appears that silica gel with cobalt added is good for drying solvents. The kind that changes from blue to pink when 'wet'. Used to dry lab chemicals. It appears that h2o has H bonds with the acetone so it's not just a mixture. Heat can break the bonds.

Thanks much Popper.
Unfortunately, solvent like Toluol are not suitable, as solvents are required to be "Polar" in nature.
Acetone was chosen, mainly for quick drying time, high solubilising characteristics, and reasonably lower toxicity as compared with Aromatic type solvents.
Acetone will pick up moisture quickly and if coating is applied too thickly, that absorbed moisture is trapped inside the coating during drying.
After coating, the evaporation of Acetone "chills" the alloy by up to 5C. This makes things worse as cold surfaces attract moisture.
Also, main issues, that seem to be causing the problem, is the idea that coating is required to go on thickly.
This causes the skinning and water entrapment, and coupled with cold damp weather, drying issues.
Pre-warming alloy prior to quick coating, or as Ausglock said, warm air drying normally fixes problems.
Other failure causes are, people thinking that a more concentrated coating mix, and using more than required to coat is what is required.
This idea is totally wrong.
Whatever the reason, and despite many write up advice against such procedures, people try to adopt other methods and then wonder what has gone wrong, (and of course, it is the coating that has failed)
One thin, well dried and baked coating will work in majority of cases, but it looks awful.
I hope this helps.
HI-TEK

[dikman]

Yep, swap the cold and damp for the heat and damp (as in high humidity).:)

Here in the Adelaide Hills it can also get cold and damp, but if the weather's a bit on the unco-operative side I warm the oven a bit and stick the trays in there for a while to make sure they've dried. I also only do a couple hundred or so at a time, might not be the most efficient way of doing them but if something goes wrong it's less to re-do. Mind you, I haven't had to re-do any since my first batch.

Having to melt down 3,000 - :holysheep.

[Lakehouse2012]

Thanks much Popper.
Unfortunately, solvent like Toluol are not suitable, as solvents are required to be "Polar" in nature.
Acetone was chosen, mainly for quick drying time, high solubilising characteristics, and reasonably lower toxicity as compared with Aromatic type solvents.
Acetone will pick up moisture quickly and if coating is applied too thickly, that absorbed moisture is trapped inside the coating during drying.
After coating, the evaporation of Acetone "chills" the alloy by up to 5C. This makes things worse as cold surfaces attract moisture.
Also, main issues, that seem to be causing the problem, is the idea that coating is required to go on thickly.
This causes the skinning and water entrapment, and coupled with cold damp weather, drying issues.
Pre-warming alloy prior to quick coating, or as Ausglock said, warm air drying normally fixes problems.
Other failure causes are, people thinking that a more concentrated coating mix, and using more than required to coat is what is required.
This idea is totally wrong.
Whatever the reason, and despite many write up advice against such procedures, people try to adopt other methods and then wonder what has gone wrong, (and of course, it is the coating that has failed)
One thin, well dried and baked coating will work in majority of cases, but it looks awful.
I hope this helps.
HI-TEKThat is a fascinating response Joe! I have been following directions with good results but have on occasion thinned the mix with more acetone then directed and now i understand why my results have been acceptable.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Avenger442]

We have had this discussion before on this thread. But it is important to repeat things. Different climate conditions will affect the drying and there may be a need to adjust. We compensate with fans, heaters, or both. One guy on here mentioned putting them over the condensing unit fan on his air conditioning unit.

A thin coat, a stain as some have called it, for the first coat dried in my basement overnight always works for me. After that first coat is stuck well the next two are a breeze. My basement has a dehumidifier going in the spring, summer and early fall when the humidity is up. Not unusual here to see 80-90%+ humidity. It has a heat source in the fall and winter. Here the saying is "if you don't like the weather today don't worry it will change tomorrow". Right now we are having heavy rain. And tornados are going by the county I live in on both sides. Remains of the hurricane that hit Texas are in Alabama. Hope Donnie made it through OK. It hit Louisiana a little harder.

Went to Arizona once. It is so dry there that it must be the perfect place to dry your bullets. Any of you guys live in Arizona?

Still having excellent results at the range with Hi Tek my rifles and handguns. I have about 150 rounds down the barrel of my .308 since real cleaning and most of the accuracy is still there as far as I can tell. Just one dry patch before each range trip. The .357 has over 200 since cleaning. I think the Hi Tek lets you shoot longer between cleaning. Another plus.

[dansedgli]

Casted up 500 bullets on my lunch break. Keen to try again tonight. Plus im running out of ammo. :p

[Intel6]

Went to Arizona once. It is so dry there that it must be the perfect place to dry your bullets. Any of you guys live in Arizona?



Yes it is dry here for most of the time. I have started using the denatured alcohol trick to give me some more time to swirl and get the bullets spread out before they dry up. It is not always dry here in SE AZ though, we are just finishing up our monsoon season where the humidity gets in the 90's along with the high temperatures and that keeps doing outside things to a minimum.

[MAGA]

Dan. You got a fan/heater? $15 at Bunnings. sit the tray in front of it for 5 minutes to warm them up.
You need to move up here to the warmer climate, mate.
Get out of Mexico.

Do you mean before you apply the coating? I assume this helps prevent moisture getting trapped when drying?

[Grmps]

I've only heated the boolits after they were coated and fan dried. In my area, I place an oven rack on top of my countertop convection oven and set the tray with dry boolits on that for 1 bake cycle (12 min @ 400) before putting in the oven.

http://i.imgur.com/j9fNt8V.jpg (https://imgur.com/j9fNt8V)

http://i.imgur.com/mLBMrYx.jpg (https://imgur.com/mLBMrYx)

[dikman]

Grmps, good to see you keep a neat and tidy bench too :lol:. I need another bench just so that I can find room to do things!

[Ausglock]

Hahaha... Fuggen love the timer stuck to the vice.
Looks like my bench.
You can use the fan/heater to warm the bullets before coating.
But I use it to warm them after coating and before baking.

[ioon44]

I have over done the warming of the bullets before coating and ended up with to much coating on the first coat. I find that when the ambient changes I have to adjust the process a little.

Putting the coated bullets out in full sunshine for 30 min or more really insures the drying process is complete.

[Avenger442]

dikman
It doesn't work to add another bench. After a few months they look just the same. Junked up. I am lucky enough to have room for four and only one is not junked up. That is because i forced myself to clean and put everything up on that one. We moved our Granddaughter into our spare bedroom so she could go to college near here. It was our junk room. Guess where all my stuff from the junk room went. Wish I could post photo of the actual loading bench. It looks almost like Grmps' One of these days I'm going to get organized:roll:

[dikman]

dikman
One of these days I'm going to get organized:roll:
Funny, I keep saying that too. :lol:

[Michael J. Spangler]

Coated some 9mm and some 44 I had laying around.
Cast some cool "collar buttons" from a modified .457 RB mould I snagged on castboolits forum.
They weight about 163 grains and will be loaded in 45/70 cases with a pinch of bullseye.
https://i.imgur.com/j8pHQVAl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k7no5i9l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iIA0elll.jpg

Hi Tek is great

[dansedgli]

Thanks for your help guys. I think I have this worked out now.

I've changed my mix to 120mls acetone, 20 grams of powder. 5mls of mix per 2kgs of bullets. I cleaned my tumbling container as I think it was adding more mix making it too thick. Fan dried for a few hours then warmed up on the oven for 12 minutes before baking. I also polished by sizing die. I'm getting good results from the first coat now. Very difficult to scrape off using my fingernail and passes the smash and acetone tests fine. Ill load some up this week and shoot them on the weekend. Now I need to sort out a faster sizing solution.

[Avenger442]

Spangler
What are you shooting the 45-70 out of?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Spangler
What are you shooting the 45-70 out of?


I have an 1895 Marlin but lately I've been doing all my 45/70 shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps.
It should sound like a pop gun out of that LOOOONG barrel.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks for your help guys. I think I have this worked out now.

I've changed my mix to 120mls acetone, 20 grams of powder. 5mls of mix per 2kgs of bullets. I cleaned my tumbling container as I think it was adding more mix making it too thick. Fan dried for a few hours then warmed up on the oven for 12 minutes before baking. I also polished by sizing die. I'm getting good results from the first coat now. Very difficult to scrape off using my fingernail and passes the smash and acetone tests fine. Ill load some up this week and shoot them on the weekend. Now I need to sort out a faster sizing solution.

dansedgli

You can use a more diluted first coat. I have heard people who used 20g powder to 200mls Acetone and use same volume to coat.
It is only first coat that is required to be well bonded to metal. It does not matter what first coat looks like. This dries quickly, and has less chance to trap moisture.
Cold conditions are never good to dry any thing. you must adapt to climate changes.

With cleaning out your coating container, this is a NO NO. It is a waste of materials.
All you have to do, is add a little Acetone only, and uncoated cast to mixing/coating container, and shake coat with residue in container that has built up.
This can be considered as your first coat.
You can re-dissolve or recycle this coating as many times as you want until you bake it. Once you bake it, it cant be recycled.
I don't know what it is, with trying to scrape coating off with finger nails????
What is this test????
If coating passes smash test and wont wipe off with solvent, why would you try to scratch it off with finger nails?
I just don't understand this.

[dansedgli]

It was mentioned in this thread at one point. I only mention it because I've got some blackwidows here from John that can't be scratched and my ones that I could scratch didn't fare well through my sizing die.

They didn't seem too bad when hitting with a hammer first.

[HI-TEK]

It was mentioned in this thread at one point. I only mention it because I've got some blackwidows here from John that can't be scratched and my ones that I could scratch didn't fare well through my sizing die.

They didn't seem too bad when hitting with a hammer first.

If coating can be scratched from alloy with finger nails, it has not been processed correctly.
There may be some adhesion, but if sizing starts to remove coating, this also confirms, that first coat was not stuck/prepared properly.
At this point, I have to rule out that sizing die is not smooth inside bearing surfaces.

[meotai]

dansedgli

You can use a more diluted first coat. I have heard people who used 20g powder to 200mls Acetone and use same volume to coat.
It is only first coat that is required to be well bonded to metal. It does not matter what first coat looks like. This dries quickly, and has less chance to trap moisture.
Cold conditions are never good to dry any thing. you must adapt to climate changes.

With cleaning out your coating container, this is a NO NO. It is a waste of materials.
All you have to do, is add a little Acetone only, and uncoated cast to mixing/coating container, and shake coat with residue in container that has built up.
This can be considered as your first coat.
You can re-dissolve or recycle this coating as many times as you want until you bake it. Once you bake it, it cant be recycled.
I don't know what it is, with trying to scrape coating off with finger nails????
What is this test????
If coating passes smash test and wont wipe off with solvent, why would you try to scratch it off with finger nails?
I just don't understand this.

I have the same issue like dansedgli. Where it passes the smash & wipe test, but the coating scrapes off easily. Do you think that is okay?

[Ausglock]

Dan. what alloy you using? 2.6.92??
That is what John would be using. Same as I use.

Range reclaim etc etc is not as hard.

[dansedgli]

It's range scrap that I collected from my local pistol club when I bought my 45 last year. Probably 90% blackwidows.

I snapped the handle off my small lee press last night. :/

Learning curves are expensive. Now i know I should use lube if they are hard to press through. :roll:

[HI-TEK]

It's range scrap that I collected from my local pistol club when I bought my 45 last year. Probably 90% blackwidows.

I snapped the handle off my small lee press last night. :/

Learning curves are expensive. Now i know I should use lube if they are hard to press through. :roll:

Have you tested hardness of your alloy? What was it?
How much reduction in diameter are you trying to achieve during sizing?
You can use something like Aqualube 5000 in very diluted form to significantly reduce sizing loads.
Other lubes may work, but may contaminate coated alloy surfaces. Some lubes can end up interfering with coating processes due to cross contamination.

[Ausglock]

Dan. Range scrap can vary hugely.
I used to do it here and would get average hadness of 10BHN.
Fine for 45 and 38 target loads.
But too soft for 9mm, 40, 357Sig 38 Super etc etc.

[dansedgli]

I haven't tested them for hardness but so far I have had good luck in 9mm and 357 sig in minor using a 135 grain round nose.

I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I don't even know where I could source proper lead down here, the internet doesn't give me anyone a place up north. Paying for lead would reduce my eagerness to cast.

Sizing from 358 to 356. Maybe the handle casting wasn't great, it broke off near the ball.

[eljefeoz]

I did a couple of hundred SAECO 160 Gr 0.285 for a mate to run out of his 7 Rem. Mag. Used 5gr ams of powder to 25 ml of acetone.3 coats.
Came out a treat. Passed acetone rub and smash test. Gas checked and sized them after the first coat. Not a scratch.
Now we wait for range reports this weekend. He's looking at 2000fps with his alloy of 18-20 BHN

[Warhead]

Dan. Range scrap can vary hugely.
I used to do it here and would get average hadness of 10BHN.
Fine for 45 and 38 target loads.
But too soft for 9mm, 40, 357Sig 38 Super etc etc.

I think a lot of that has to do with your barrel because I have ran 9X25 dillon loads over 2000fps with range scrap and not got any leading.
Used 3 coats of Candy Apple Red, and a H&G S55 mold sized 357, in a KKM .355 barrel Wilson/Nowlin ramp and Longshot powder.

[dansedgli]

I did find that my barrel is easier to clean then my last. Is an svi aet one.

[meotai]

I haven't tested them for hardness but so far I have had good luck in 9mm and 357 sig in minor using a 135 grain round nose.

I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I don't even know where I could source proper lead down here, the internet doesn't give me anyone a place up north. Paying for lead would reduce my eagerness to cast.

Sizing from 358 to 356. Maybe the handle casting wasn't great, it broke off near the ball.

What powder are you using? I had leading issues with hitek coated 10bhn range lead & titegroup, but no leading with WST. This is with NOE 9mm 358-155 TC Elco.

[Ausglock]

AP-70 or AP-100 in OZ are the most popular powders for handgun reloading.

[dikman]

Dan, if the coating is done correctly and you can scrape it off with a fingernail what you're probably doing is taking off a fine sliver of the lead itself as well, easy enough to do if the alloy isn't hard. I use recovered pistol range scrap and have "discovered" this. As long as it passes the smash test that's all I worry about. As for sizing, I bought a Lee Classic clone press (made in Italy) and did a bit of modifying so that I could get the leverage I wanted. I was sizing after the first coat, but last time I sized after the two coats that I use 'cos then I can apply a bit of lube and don't have to worry about it affecting subsequent coats.

[dansedgli]

Thanks mate im sure the coating was not right when it was scraping off. I can barely mark the lead with fingernail.

The latest coats are much better. Im going to load up tonight and shoot them tomorrow hopefully.

Any tips on powder charge using ap100 and the 168s Trev? I was going to start at 6 grains.

[Ausglock]

in 357Sig.
6.4gn AP-100
1.170"OAL
About 177 Power factor out of Edge.
Use a good heavy crimp.

[dansedgli]

Thanks mate.

[popper]

Did ~ 150 165gr for 40sw yesterday, old liquid green. 1st coat dried overnite then 15 min in 135F oven, 12 min 400F bake. 2nd coat just dried in oven & cooked the same. Passed wipe & smash OK but lost a few when sizing - H2O used for lube - don't want to gunk up the sizer. Drops 404 & sized are 402. Brown color, not green but I really don't care about the color. Same process I did a few years back when I first started with HiTek - finally shot up all the old stock. This alloy is not soft but <1% Sb. I just topped off with a coat of BLL for insurance. I tumbled with the lid off and 1 ml/#. IMHO the remains in the jug and any coated dirt gives a rough surface the scrapes off when sizing.
Edit: shot the 40 today, good accuracy and no leading with cu/Zn/sb alloy.

[cityofthesouth]

I live in Kansas where the climate can vary from 30% humidity to 90% day-to-day throughout the summer (or worse if we get rain), and from 110F in the summer to single digits in the winter. I coat all year round in a shed that has more holes than walls. I coat my bullets then dump them on a tray and warm them with the heat gun for maybe 30 seconds, probably less. They sit in front of the fan for the remaining time before the previous batch comes out (I don't bother with the fan at all if it's the first tray to go in). So between trays my bullets are cooled, coated, and heated with the heat gun usually right at the 5 minute mark. I twiddle my thumbs for the remaining 5 minutes and then laser thermometer the bullets already in the oven to confirm they are somewhere between 375F and 400F. They always are so they come out at 10 minutes, the previously prepared tray goes immediately in. So basically I use the 10 minutes between trays to prepare the next tray with time to spare by using a heat gun. Perfect results every time. And I mentioned before, I use a diluted mix compared to the instructions just because I like the extra time for tumbling and I like to dump them just before they start to tack up too much.

[MAGA]

Well my first casting session went well but I went to the range today and shot my first boolits and I had MAJOR leading. Within 6 or so rounds the last half of the barrel was completely leaded. The boolits was miha MP 147gr round nose flat base .359
I cast the boolits out of water quenched COWW and coated with 2 coats hi tek black 1035 passed both tests
One thing I noticed was the single lube grove was not coated it was still bare lead is that normal?

I sized to .356 and .357 and both leaded.
I flared the cases pretty good and I don't think it was scraping the coating on the base when seating but the lube groove is pretty sharp and could have been scraping some on the top side of the lube groove possibly?
I did use a lee FCD
I will pull some here shortly and see if it was sizing them down with the FCD

Any help would be appreciated cause im a casting noob

[Ausglock]

Well my first casting session went well but I went to the range today and shot my first boolits and I had MAJOR leading. Within 6 or so rounds the last half of the barrel was completely leaded. The boolits was miha MP 147gr round nose flat base .359
I cast the boolits out of water quenched COWW and coated with 2 coats hi tek black 1035 passed both tests
One thing I noticed was the single lube grove was not coated it was still bare lead is that normal?

I sized to .356 and .357 and both leaded.
I flared the cases pretty good and I don't think it was scraping the coating on the base when seating but the lube groove is pretty sharp and could have been scraping some on the top side of the lube groove possibly?
I did use a lee FCD
I will pull some here shortly and see if it was sizing them down with the FCD

Any help would be appreciated cause im a casting noob

Lube groove can be bare lead and will not cause any leading. All mine have no coating in lube groove. If you do, you are using too much coating and too thick.
Wheel weight alloy causes more failures than anything else. I hate the stuff.

[MAGA]

Lube groove can be bare lead and will not cause any leading. All mine have no coating in lube groove. If you do, you are using too much coating and too thick.
Wheel weight alloy causes more failures than anything else. I hate the stuff.

Really? Wow I did not know that!
What do you like to use Trevor?
Do you think range scrap would be a little better?
Thanks!

[meotai]

Really? Wow I did not know that!
What do you like to use Trevor?
Do you think range scrap would be a little better?
Thanks!

What powder were you using? I had leading with titegroup, but not with WST. Same power factor.

[Michael J. Spangler]

http://i.imgur.com/iSWA8rM.jpg

[MAGA]

What powder were you using? I had leading with titegroup, but not with WST. Same power factor.

I was using titegroup
Here is a pic of a few I pulled
I made some dummy rounds without the Lee FCD and just barely taking the flare back out but apparently just seating them is sizing the bases down to .352-.354. I am having to seat that deep to pass the plunk test

203575

[meotai]

I was using titegroup
Here is a pic of a few I pulled
I made some dummy rounds without the Lee FCD and just barely taking the flare back out but apparently just seating them is sizing the bases down to .352-.354. I am having to seat that deep to pass the plunk test

203575

You can try this.
http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html

castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod

But then you may run into chambering issues with some 9mm barrels. It works fine for me cause I'm running a stock glock 17 barrel.

[Ausglock]

I was using titegroup
Here is a pic of a few I pulled
I made some dummy rounds without the Lee FCD and just barely taking the flare back out but apparently just seating them is sizing the bases down to .352-.354. I am having to seat that deep to pass the plunk test

203575

Bugger. That is the issue with long, heavy bullets in 9mm with a softer alloy.
Gotta remember... the 9mm is a tapered case. it gets smaller inside, the closer you get to the head..
I only use Hardball alloy 2,6,92 16BHN
Range scrap can vary a great deal in hardness. It depends on hw many .22 soft bullets get melted with the centrefire lead bullets.

[AbitNutz]

So I've been reading and watching the videos about using low temp on powder coating so as not to soften the lead.

What is the situation regarding Hi-Tek? Am I losing hardness by repeated heating to 400 degrees for 8 to 12 minutes?

On the final heat I water dump them out of habit.

I typically use 3 coats and heat at 400 degrees for 10 minutes and then water drop them. I've never bothered to check the hardness because I've been fortunate enough to be able to use straight Linotype. Am I softening up my Linotype?

[Ausglock]

HITEK coated Alloy MUST, Must reach AT LEAST 185 Deg C!!!!! for AT LEAST 2 minutes for the coating to fully cure.
That is why I do 200Deg C for 7 1/2 minutes in the Wall oven and 12 minutes in the benchtop ovens.

[AbitNutz]

HITEK coated Alloy MUST, Must reach AT LEAST 185 Deg C!!!!! for AT LEAST 2 minutes for the coating to fully cure.
That is why I do 200Deg C for 7 1/2 minutes in the Wall oven and 12 minutes in the benchtop ovens.

I get that, and I'm not going to alter or play with those recommendations at all. It works too well. What I'm worried about is what that continued 400 degree heating and reheating does to the hardness of the lead. According to what I've read, it can drop the lead hardness by half. That's a problem, if it's true, and it doesn't come back through age hardening over time.

[Ausglock]

No problem with 2,6,92 alloy.

[AbitNutz]

Has anyone tested what the alloy hardness is before they cook the bullets compared to after? I may have to do that. It would be interesting to see what happens to my Linotype bullets after 3 coatings and 3 trips through the oven at 400 degrees for 10 minutes and then water dropped....and then what they are a week later.

Also, you mentioned 12 minutes in a benchtop oven and 8 minutes in a stove. I've only been doing 10 minutes on my benchtop and things seem to be fine. On your recomendation though, I'm going to move to 12 minutes on each cook. Is there a downside this? Can I over cook them?

[slide]

I use range scrap. That is all I can get and it is all I can afford. The testing was done with a cabine tree tester. After casting and before coating the bullets tested around 10 bhn. Water quench on the last bake and testing two days later the bhn was 12 to 15. Checked some yesterday that have been setting for about a month and are still holding at the 12 to 15 range. I don't know how your linotype will react. Lee makes a hardness tester that is around fifty bucks last I heard.

[ioon44]

Has anyone tested what the alloy hardness is before they cook the bullets compared to after? I may have to do that. It would be interesting to see what happens to my Linotype bullets after 3 coatings and 3 trips through the oven at 400 degrees for 10 minutes and then water dropped....and then what they are a week later.

Also, you mentioned 12 minutes in a benchtop oven and 8 minutes in a stove. I've only been doing 10 minutes on my benchtop and things seem to be fine. On your recomendation though, I'm going to move to 12 minutes on each cook. Is there a downside this? Can I over cook them?

Your Linotype bullets will return to the original hardness after a week or more just like it does after casting. In my experience you can get leading from Linotype if they are not sized to fit the bore, I consider Linotype too hard for bullets and I mix Linotype 50/50 with pure lead and makes about a 6-2-92 alloy.

There is no downside to over baking the coating it just makes the color darker and shoots fine, getting the first coat dry is the most important step.
I bake for 12 min at just over 400 deg F.

[Intel6]

Broke in two new .459" moulds in and got some bullets cast and coated.

The first one is a NOE mould that was designed to make bullets mainly for the .458 SOCOM but then a crimp groove was added so it could also be used in 45-70 rounds. As you can see it was also made just for coating as it has no lube grooves. I coated these in Bronze 500, added a gator gas check and sized them to .459" The final weight was right at 360 grs.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/NOE_354_gr_459_web1.jpg

The second one is also a NOE mould that I got to cast heavy (500 gr.) bullets for subsonic loads in the .458 SOCOM but this could also be used in single shot 45-70 loads. This was also a coated bullet only mould and was coated with Bronze 500 and sized to .459"

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/NOE_500gr_459_web1.jpg

[asmith80]

Has anyone tested what the alloy hardness is before they cook the bullets compared to after? I may have to do that. It would be interesting to see what happens to my Linotype bullets after 3 coatings and 3 trips through the oven at 400 degrees for 10 minutes and then water dropped....and then what they are a week later.

Also, you mentioned 12 minutes in a benchtop oven and 8 minutes in a stove. I've only been doing 10 minutes on my benchtop and things seem to be fine. On your recomendation though, I'm going to move to 12 minutes on each cook. Is there a downside this? Can I over cook them?

I did a little test before and after with hi Tek just for my own peace of mind. I was using COWW and air cooling. Before 1st coat of Hi-Tek they were coming in at 14.3 bhn with my Lee tester. After coating twice (the amount I normally do) they were coming in at 11bhn. After a week and a half of age hardening they were at 12.5 bhn. So it seems you lose some hardness initially, but you do regain some over time. 12.5 seems to be plenty hard for what I'm doing so I'm satisfied with the standard procedure for hi tek

[popper]

I posted this on another thread but I'll put it here too. Made an alloy with 0.8%Sb/0.5%Cu/1% Zn. Hitek'd coated 165 gr for 40sw - AC, just BLL on 185 gr GCd 30/30. Both worked fine, no WD needed. My normal poor levergun shooting. ~1800 fps. Top 2 are sierra jacketed.
203623

[AbitNutz]

Yeah, that's what I was worried about. You lost 22% of your hardness immediately. It gained back 14% after a week. Those are significant loses on an alloy in the 10 to 15 bhn range.

I don't know if Linotype acts the same way but if it does, I'm talking about a water drop bhn of upwards of 25 or 26 and an ultimate hardness of about 22 bhn after a week. I guess that's not too bad. I'm hard pressed to think of something I can't do at a bhn of 22. 22 bhn is brutally hard lead.

Some reports I have seen are of 50% and are not recovering a significant amount after aging...Imagine starting out with 15 bhn and ending up with under 10. That would be a real problem.

[dikman]

Range scrap can vary a great deal in hardness. It depends on hw many .22 soft bullets get melted with the centrefire lead bullets.
True. I use a plastic garden sieve that I bought at Bunnings and find most of the .22 falls through the holes, just leaving .38/9mm.

[slide]

AbitNutz, sounds like you need to invest in a hardness tester. Then you will have a good idea of what is going on. It would be interesting to see how the linotype reacts.

[slide]

Okay guys, changing subject, If you need to continue with the hardness question won't bother me. This information may have already been found out by someone else and I really don't think it is worth much. My son and I did some chronograph testing with powder coated bullets and hi-tek coated bullets. This was a NOE 358429 hollowbase mold. Bullets around the 158 weight. Used 4.0 grains of unique powder. On average the hi-tek bullets were around 50 fps faster than the powder coat bullets. We were using a smith&wesson model 64 four inch barrel revolver. I though it was interesting. THIS IS NOT A MY COATING IS FASTER THAN YOUR COATING POST.

[dikman]

Hmm, PC crowd won't like that :lol:.

[asmith80]

I use range scrap. That is all I can get and it is all I can afford. The testing was done with a cabine tree tester. After casting and before coating the bullets tested around 10 bhn. Water quench on the last bake and testing two days later the bhn was 12 to 15. Checked some yesterday that have been setting for about a month and are still holding at the 12 to 15 range. I don't know how your linotype will react. Lee makes a hardness tester that is around fifty bucks last I heard.

So just to clarify, are you saying you WQ after about 10 minutes in a 400 degree oven? And you get that big of a hardness jump?

I didn't think 10 minutes would be long enough to really cause an effect on the hardness if quenched. I may have to try this out just for the sake of it

[popper]

Range scrap is pretty soft and MAY not WQ at all. Normal age hardening can increase BHN a couple points. My post 9130 shows you can add 0.5-1% Zn to range scrap that has a tad of Sb and get an alloy that doesn't need to be WQ. I added Zn to pure, it helped but not that much. This is the 40sw target, 2x HITek, 400F for 12 min. AC. Top shots are WWbox.
203650

[benellinut]

Yeah, that's what I was worried about. You lost 22% of your hardness immediately. It gained back 14% after a week. Those are significant loses on an alloy in the 10 to 15 bhn range.

I don't know if Linotype acts the same way but if it does, I'm talking about a water drop bhn of upwards of 25 or 26 and an ultimate hardness of about 22 bhn after a week. I guess that's not too bad. I'm hard pressed to think of something I can't do at a bhn of 22. 22 bhn is brutally hard lead.

Some reports I have seen are of 50% and are not recovering a significant amount after aging...Imagine starting out with 15 bhn and ending up with under 10. That would be a real problem.

Just a thought, try baking some without any coating following the directions as if you were coating them and see what happens. I may be wrong and I'm sure the guys will correct me if I am but I can't believe the coating would have any impact on the hardness so it may be a test you could run and see what you get after baking? Am I off base guys?

[bfuller14]

AbitNutz,
Try to contact leadman on here.
He did some testing with linotype on here early on.( pg. 31 post 619)
Maybe he can help.

[dikman]

"Range scrap is pretty soft". I guess that's going to depend on the range itself where it comes from? If it's used by every man and his dog (public range?) then yeah, it could have anything in it. At the range where I collect mine as far as I know very few (if any) cast their own, it all appears to be commercial stuff. There is the odd bit of pure from muzzleloaders and a bit of .22, but when I'm melting 100+ kilos at a time that's pretty insignificant.

[meotai]

I was using titegroup
Here is a pic of a few I pulled
I made some dummy rounds without the Lee FCD and just barely taking the flare back out but apparently just seating them is sizing the bases down to .352-.354. I am having to seat that deep to pass the plunk test

203575

I was able to use titegroup with Smoke's PC without leading today. If you want to stay with titegroup & COWW, I would give PC a try. I think it's more forgiving with alloy types & lower bhn.

[cityofthesouth]

I was using titegroup
Here is a pic of a few I pulled
I made some dummy rounds without the Lee FCD and just barely taking the flare back out but apparently just seating them is sizing the bases down to .352-.354. I am having to seat that deep to pass the plunk test

203575

Yeah you need the Lee 38 S&W expander plug to expand the brass deeper and a touch more - just buy the plug from Lee and drop it into your 9mm die. I have a friend struggling with 147s. I can't see any reason to use them other than to save powder. I loaded a few for him to test with 2.5gr Titegroup and the accuracy was ok. Those didn't tumble but just going up another 10th would produce occasional tumble and I would bet leading as well. Went up to 2.7 - lots of tumbling boolits.

As for tempering the alloy - steel begins to temper under 400 so there is no reason to think lead wouldn't as well.

[DerekP Houston]

That is a fascinating response Joe! I have been following directions with good results but have on occasion thinned the mix with more acetone then directed and now i understand why my results have been acceptable.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

That is my experience as well, too thick or too concentrated = bad news. Thinning the mix down more than recommended actually helped with the drying on my coats in the Texas heat and humidity. Took me a few try's but I should've followed the directions more closely. Still experimenting with getting my 9mm alloy to work properly with hitek, the coating is so much faster to apply than other methods I use.

[Matuku]

I got my hitek in the post late last week, thanks Joe, the first time I had the chance to try it out was today and I successfully coated 300 hundred 45.70 bullets in no time, the bullets pasted all the tests and look great in black, going to shoot them on Friday.
I started off by warming the bullets on top of my oven before coating and dried each coat there as well, I just elevated my mesh trays a little above my oven, the hole process was that easy I had to make myself keep doing the rub and smash tests.

[Avenger442]

I'm going from memory here so forgive if I'm wrong on any of the below.

We had a long discussion quite a while back about the Lee factory crimp die causing scraping of the coating when round was fired. I vaguely remember Ausglock saying he didn't use it for this reason.

Concerning loss of BHN at bake and based on some test I ran, coating and baking will generally return the bullet to what it would have been if you didn't water drop at cast or heat treat before coating. While some of the heat treating will remain it generally defeats water drop at cast. That's with COWW and tin or COWW with some lino and tin. You can water drop after coating but the best I have gained from that, depending on the alloy, is about 2BHN. Since the temperature of the lead needs to be a certain temp for a certain length of time to cure coating, my memory 356F for 8 minutes, then I suppose you could just bake at a lower temp (356F) for a longer period say 20 min. to make sure it was cured. I have never tried this since I have not had a problem with COWW, 2% tin and three coats in my handguns 45 auto, 44 magnum and special, 357 magnum and 38 and rifles .223 and .308. Joe and Trevor could probably chime in here since they do the experimentation thing and have probably tried this. And I think Trevor has shot a lot of 9mm.

While I'm giving recollection and opinions here, I would like to say I have not had very good experience with Tite Group in the calibers I shoot. It is just too close of a measurement from a good load to a max load. Not enough adjustment between. If you have a powder measure that can get measurements closer than 1/10 grain you may have better success than I. Do I still uses it? Yes. But I hand measure every load. Tried using the Hornady measure on my progressive press and got some loads that were way too stout. The Hornady electric powder measure will do as close as 1/10 grain but there needs to be an exact measure of Tite Group. Again, my experience.

And Slide, I don't know about Hi Tek vs PC and speed. But have seen some test data, stored somewhere on my computer I really need to get more organized, on jacketed bullets in rifles coated with Hi Tek and an increase in speed over the crono. I can't remember how much faster. What I do remember is that it was one coat and the Hi Tek was faster. Makes sense since it is basically a lubricant. Seems like Joe mentioned this coating of jacketed to keep down copper fouling a few years ago. 458 pages.........

[Ausglock]

The Lee FC Die is a real problem with 9mm reloading. Due to the 9mm case being tapered, anything less than around 15BHN will get swaged when seating/crimping. I reload umpteen 1000's of 9mm with 135gn RN coated lead bullets and use the dillon factory crimp die. The lee got shelved long ago.

But.... The Lee FC die works fine in 38 Super, 40 S&W, 45ACP, 38 Spl 357Mag etc etc.. it is just the 9mm that has issues.
The Lee FC die for 357Sig is a collet crimp die and it's the duck's guts. best crimp die there is.

Another reloading tip. if you are reloading 9mm for CZ, Glock, Tanfog, S&W M&P, size to .357. your gun and barrel will thank you. so will your target.

[6bg6ga]

I will most certainly catch heat with this post but I simplydon't have time to sit and read 458 pages of this thread. I was wondering if someone could condense the thread for me. Acetone, hardner, and powder coat material. What type of hardener?

Ratio? I've seen everything from 1 part hardner, 5 parts acetone, 5 part powder to 1 part hardner, 7 parts acetone, and 5 parts powder. What is the correct ratio?

Heat and cooking time... i've read and or watched video's and have seen the temp vary from 350-400 degrees and time from 8 minutes to 20 minutes. Which is correct?

Number of coatings? One or two?

Do you coat one or two times and then cook? or coat and cook, coat and cook?

Sizing? size before or after coating or both?

Help here would be appreciated. Also, where do you purchase the hardner, specific type?

[slide]

Contact Donnie at hi-performance bullet coatings. He can explain everything you need to know. There are a lot of good coaters around here. The two main ones are Hi-tek Joe and Ausglock. Joe invented the stuff and Ausglock is the Yoda of coating. They will be along.

[Ausglock]

Mate.
HITEK isn't powdercoat.

There are 2 different types of HITEK.
A liquid version that needs a seperate catalyst.
Another version that is a powdered type with catalyst included in the powder.

Powdercoat is a whole different kettle of fish.

Maybe you need to read the thread. "HITEK do's and don'ts"


I will most certainly catch heat with this post but I simplydon't have time to sit and read 458 pages of this thread. I was wondering if someone could condense the thread for me. Acetone, hardner, and powder coat material. What type of hardener?

Ratio? I've seen everything from 1 part hardner, 5 parts acetone, 5 part powder to 1 part hardner, 7 parts acetone, and 5 parts powder. What is the correct ratio?

Heat and cooking time... i've read and or watched video's and have seen the temp vary from 350-400 degrees and time from 8 minutes to 20 minutes. Which is correct?

Number of coatings? One or two?

Do you coat one or two times and then cook? or coat and cook, coat and cook?

Sizing? size before or after coating or both?

Help here would be appreciated. Also, where do you purchase the hardner, specific type?

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

6bg6ga,
No heat here......I think you may be confusing Hi-Tek Supercoat and industrial powder coating.
Hi-Tek Powder has the catalyst (hardner) built in. Powder must be liquefied with a solvent (Acetone or MEK)
Hi-Tek liquid comes with the catalyst in a separate container. Liquid is a concentrate and must be reduced with a solvent (Acetone or MEK) to the desired consistency.
Both liquid and powder based Hi-Tek come with directions.

Temperature and time in oven varies greatly with ability of the oven to achieve and maintain the desired temp. Hi-Tek must achieve 185 C (365F) for 2 minutes to properly bond to the alloy.
With many difference in thermostats, wattage, insulation of oven etc. many folks use a PID to accurately achieve and maintain temp. Amount of alloy placed in oven should be consistent as ovens will certainly respond differently to different loads. A convection type oven with good airflow helps maintain equal heat distribution.

Hi-Tek is a coat, cure, coat, cure process.
Most folks size after the second coat. No harm is done sizing after the first coat and reapplying Hi-Tek for a second coat as long as no contamination from bullet lube etc is left on bullet from sizing operation.

Hope this helps clear up any confusion. If you have any other questions please feel free to call me or email me.
hiperformancebulletcoatings@gmail.com
225-324-4501

[MAGA]

I know you don't want to breathe the hi tek powder, I read the instructions and used a dust mask when mixing. My question is there any concern about the fumes generated from baking? I use a toaster oven in my outbuilding and when baking. I'd rather not have to bake outside if it's not that big of deal

[Michael J. Spangler]

Shot some 300 Blackout tonight with lee 312-155 coated in Hi-Tek
some without gas check and some with. No leading at all. 18 grains of CFE BLK for about 1800FPS or so.
Can't complain about that.

[dikman]

MAGA, I've noticed there is some outgassing while cooking (plus I can smell it!) so I do mine outside, under cover. I did some inside a small shed once, next to an open door, but I prefer it outside. As long as you're in a well ventilated place inside it should be fine.

6bg6ba, I started off sizing after the first coat but now I do it after the second, as this avoids any possibility of contamination prior to the second coat and lets me apply a light loobing to help with re-sizing. Works for me.

[benellinut]

Don't know if I'd want to breath any leftover acetone evaporating from an oven..... As Ausglock says, an inexpensive fart fan with one short section of pipe to go through the shed wall (and maybe put inside an upside down box with short sides to simulate an above the stove vent), should be enough to suck the fumes outside. Or buy a cheap above the stove vent, but a cheaper fart fan would cost less and with a little tinkering, it should do the trick.

[6bg6ga]

Ok, Hi-tek is different from powder coating. I have on hand a 1lb container of Harbor Freight powder coat that I would assume needs a hardner and a carrier in order to coat the bullets.

[Ausglock]

Ok, Hi-tek is different from powder coating. I have on hand a 1lb container of Harbor Freight powder coat that I would assume needs a hardner and a carrier in order to coat the bullets.

Mate.
If you have Harbor Freight Powdercoat, You might want to ask the questions of the Powdercoating people on the Powdercoating threads.
Not the HITEK coating threads...

[6bg6ga]

Mate.
If you have Harbor Freight Powdercoat, You might want to ask the questions of the Powdercoating people on the Powdercoating threads.
Not the HITEK coating threads...

I see that now. Powder coat is simply coating and baking for 20 minutes. Hi-Tek is a different method of applying a liquid coating with hardner and baking about 8 minutes if I read correctly.

I will try the Harbor freight method first simply because I have a lb of powder already. I will compare the industrial method and results to the Hi-Tek method. Right now I see the advantages to the Hi-Tek method in that the bullets look like they will be more uniformly coated as a result of several coatings then a final baking. The negative I seem to see is the Hi-Tek seems to be more costly from the prices I see for the material and the number of bullets that can be coated.

[Ausglock]

20 grams of HITEK powdered coating mixed with 100mls of Acetone will do 2 coats on 2100 9mm bullets.
Cheap as...

[benellinut]

Would be interesting to see a poll on how many tried both methods and went with HiTek :) By all means, you've got the powder, might as well try it, unless it's returnable or if you have to spend more money to apply it.... Then try HiTek, you can by a small container pretty cheap. http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder/

[Avenger442]

A straight up poll would have to be taken with a grain of salt since, for what ever reason, some are trying to sway someone one way or the other. My way is better than your way thing. And you know what they say; opinions are like mouths, everybody has one.

But it might still be an interesting exercise if we put some confirming facts on it and put it in another thread. Make it objective rather than subjective. Such as mentioned verifiable cost of doing each including all accessories and materials. Have never PCed but would think from what I know of having watched PC that the cost difference would have to be in the 1/10 of a penny range and probably not worth mentioning, my "opinion". How much is tin foil? Look of the bullet for those that must have pretty bullets to show at the range, with photos of course. I've seen some really pretty PC. Makes me want to buy another Vera Bradly purse. For my wife of course!:kidding: This leaves me out since I don't post photos anymore. Labor intensity/time just tumble and dump vs the set 200 .223 on their end after coating with powder, my understanding there may be a better way. Accuracy at the range including fps and distances with small group photos. For me, this end result is the necessary thing. There are probably others....... There are bound to be pluses and minuses to both. Minus for both is they require baking i.e. electricity. Don't see myself baking bullets over an open flame. I'm sure there is someone out there who would create a wood fired oven for either coating $$$. It was good enuf for Grandmother. Solar will not keep up in locations other than Arizona here in the US. We haven't seen much sun this summer.

Don't see many participating in this thread because it would not be a subjective opinion and would require a good bit of documentation to make it really an objective opinion. I would start it, if there is not one already, but I don't post photos anymore and I don't PC. If I come across a bit negative on PC I don't intend to be. Like I said, I've never tried it. Just watched a few videos and read up on it. And Popper, I really did mean it in the beginning of my coating experience when I said I might try it someday.

There is probably a thread somewhere out there about why I started coating instead of the grease/wax methods, too. They are probably the best to know for the no power situation. Or maybe paper patch? And I have some in storage for that use.

This probably qualifies as the kind of subjective opinion that we normally get. I do Hi Tek because that is what I found to use as a lube when I started casting. I've never used anything else in my handguns and rifles. Properly applied it has passed all of the test for me that I can see any other lube for others passing under the same conditions. Compared to most it has done better than what I have seen verified from others. It will give you an edge in some areas. It's not as messy as most. Not as labor intensive. Less costly when compared to what you spend on equipment and lubricant with others. Will give you more shots between a real cleaning, my opinion from use not verified against other coatings or lubes.

The accuracy that I have had with it, while not as consistent as factory match ammo, has been outstanding. In .308 four bullets in under 1/2" and 1" overall for five shots at 100 yards is my best. Confirmed with the next range trip when nothing with the same load was over 1 1/2" at 100 yards. And most of the bullets in each group were hitting under an inch. Dang flyers. Speeds around 2600 fps. Of course there are a lot more things that go into accuracy than the coating or lube you are using. For instance, recently had a bad day at the range. Groups were all on paper but terrible compared to the above. Came back to find that the bullets were not the same as I had been using and I'm going to have to make some adjustments for that lot. What was working before with the load and bullets I was using will not work with these bullets. May have to use these for hunting. From what I have read consistent attention to doing the same thing again with the same components is always needed for accuracy. Sometimes I'm just not going to take the time to make sure I'm being consistent.

I say why not, you guys that do both, let's have some objective polling. Might be interesting as benellinut said. Probably not going to get me to make good on my "I'll try it someday". But might. Tell us when you start the thread.

For you guys just starting with Hi Tek, my objective opinion is it works as well as anything else you will find and better than some.

[6bg6ga]

20 grams of HITEK powdered coating mixed with 100mls of Acetone will do 2 coats on 2100 9mm bullets.
Cheap as...


Maybe I'm wrong but I believe 1/2 liter coats 137 lbs of bullets according to Hi-Tek's web site. Which would be about 7600-7700 124 gr 9mm bullets give or take.

[HI-TEK]

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe 1/2 liter coats 137 lbs of bullets according to Hi-Tek's web site. Which would be about 7600-7700 124 gr 9mm bullets give or take.

Just a couple of things, the web site is not Hi-Tek's website.

What Ausglock has stated is, that 20gms (about 3/4oz) of the Powdered Hi-Tek, when made up with solvent to ready to use concentration, should coat using two coats, about 2100 9mm projectiles, and possibly more from my calculations.

If you are referring to the liquid version, the half litre pack should do as was advised.
Most suggestions of coverage is advised with a conservative number, so users can get at least that sort of volumes when they use that coating. Many get far more than quoted. Final quantity produced will really depend on user and finish required.

[HI-TEK]

I see that now. Powder coat is simply coating and baking for 20 minutes. Hi-Tek is a different method of applying a liquid coating with hardner and baking about 8 minutes if I read correctly.

The negative I seem to see is the Hi-Tek seems to be more costly from the prices I see for the material and the number of bullets that can be coated.

Powder coatings generally require 20 minutes baking. I don't know power costs, but that is about twice the baking time as required with the Hi-Tek coatings.
Cost benefits here appear to support Hi-Tek .

I don't know just how much powder can be applied to each projectile, but from what I have seen, the powder coatings, vary from about 3 thou to 11 thou on the surfaces of same alloy, versus about 1.5 to 1.6 thou using Hi-Tek.
Costs can only be made as direct comparison, if user can identify actually, how much product is used in coating each projectile, and then taking into consideration of product that is not used/lost during coating processes.
I don't know for sure, but benefits seem to favour the Hi-Tek as coating is much more evenly applied, and very little or no losses of product.

If costs are only compared and based on purchase price on a specific quantity of product, this is not an accurate way to obtain cost efficiency for each product.
This is only initial out of pocket expense.

Just how much powder coat ends up being used on a specific quantity of projectiles?
We already know how many projectiles can be coated with Hi-Tek.


Rough calculations indicate, that using Hi-Tek and applying two coats, costs about $0.0001 cent each.
With buying of powder coating, if it works out cheaper by 2 times, and then have 5-8 times more coating applied to alloy, (not including losses), it may change cost to a guessed amount of $0.0002.

I do not really see a practical price benefit at all, when considering just how much labour and power is involved to produce each product, and comparative volumes that can be produced using same labour content on each method.

I really would appreciate feed back from users that may have already carried out such comparative costs to produce their product.

[6bg6ga]

Just a couple of things, the web site is not Hi-Tek's website.

What Ausglock has stated is, that 20gms (about 3/4oz) of the Powdered Hi-Tek, when made up with solvent to ready to use concentration, should coat using two coats, about 2100 9mm projectiles, and possibly more from my calculations.

If you are referring to the liquid version, the half litre pack should do as was advised.
Most suggestions of coverage is advised with a conservative number, so users can get at least that sort of volumes when they use that coating. Many get far more than quoted. Final quantity produced will really depend on user and finish required.

It was from
http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/hi-tek-supercoat-powder/

For a shipping quote, call Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings and ask for Donnie Miculek at 225-324-4501.

Is this not the same person as in post #9150? Is this not the same person you are purchasing your Hi-Tek materials from?

[slide]

Donnie is the U.S. supplier. Hi-Tek is made in Australia and shipped to the U.S. Hi-Tek Joe invented the stuff. I really think you would be better off with the powder coat.

[6bg6ga]

Donnie is the U.S. supplier. Hi-Tek is made in Australia and shipped to the U.S. Hi-Tek Joe invented the stuff. I really think you would be better off with the powder coat.

I'm on the fence with respect to powder coating or Hi-Tek coating verses normal sizing lubing with my Star sizer with a bullet feeder on it. I don't like to play with the sticky messy lube so I am seeking an alternative method.

Yes, as mentioned I have a lb of powder coat that I will play with in an attempt to see if its easier and works any bit better than sized/ lubed bullets. I would like to see if anyone on this thread will respond with information like number of bullets processed with the coating material and time involved. I can do about 9K bullets with 1.5 sticks of Blue Angel or 50/50 lube so the cost is low. The blue lube stays in the lube groove so one can load without loosing 1/2 of the lube from each bullet. I also like the idea of a bullet that won't smoke up an indoor range too.

I will also purchase some Hi-Tek powder material and give that a try in order to obtain a decent idea of performance, cost, and effort needed. I will point out I'm not interested in finding out how much electricity is used as that is a mute point for me. I have a Ballisti-cast bullet casting machine that probably uses far more power than any small pot used with hand held molds.

[asmith80]

I've done both powder coating and hi-tek coating and for me, the hi-tek seems to be faster and more consistent. I can generally process about 500 rounds in about 30 min with hi-tek. I'm using a small toaster oven to bake the coating, so I can only do about 250 rounds at a time. Even still, I can get two coats of hi-tek on and size all 500 rounds in that 30 minutes.

With powder coating, I've used both a plastic tub and BBs and tumbled by hand and also used a vibratory case tumbler and let it coat the bullets. To do the same 500 bullets it was taking me about 45-50 minutes at the fastest. The biggest reason was how long it takes to bake on the powder coat. Each batch only needed one coat, but it took 20 minutes to cure. So if I do 2 batches, that's 40 minutes total, just waiting for the bullets to bake.

Overall, I like the hi-tek better. I can get bullets done faster, the coating was more consistent and covered better, and cost was on par with cheap HF powder coat. Performance-wise I didn't notice a difference between PC and hi-tek.

[benellinut]

Mods, we need a "Like" button!!!!!

Edit, We need the "Like" button enabled!!! That's what I meant to say....

[DerekP Houston]

For those interested I have the Dark Green Metallic in stock.
Find it here: www.hi-performancebulletcoatings.com

Hmmm I still have plenty of others but I like the look of that!

[TonyN]

I just hooked up a manual house oven.. My question is what's the normal timing for 30 lbs of Hi-Tek in a house oven dedicated for baking projectials? Would I use the same timing as I did with 5 lbs projectiles in my small convection oven or would I up the time? Anyone here use a electric house oven and bake a large amount?

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

TonyN,
Just like the small ovens, it depends on the particular ovens ability to bring the bullet load to temp and it's ability to maintain the temp.
Reliable, repeatable temp control is key regardless of the size of the oven.
My large oven cured 38-40 lbs in 9 minutes.
My small oven cures 5 lbs in 10-11 minutes.

[TonyN]

Thanks for the reply. I would like to see a picture of your new dark green color.

[220]

Haven't coated any for over 2 years, once I got the process sorted I did enough to keep me going for years.
Have run out of a few boolits so cast up another 30kg. Typically I didn't write down what was working for me so trying to work from rusty memory.
Using the original liquid I have gone with 5:1:10, applied at 5ml/2.5kg baked 210c for 12min.
Coverage looks a bit thin even after the second coat but passing the wipe and smash tests so I can always go 3 or 4 coats to get them looking pretty.

Liquid would be around 3 years old, stored in the shed so not ideal storage conditions but a newly mixed batch appears to still be function fine. I should have cleaned out my tumbling tub before I started as when I tumbled the second batch the HiTek that has been drying in the tub for 2years plus started flaking off.

[dansedgli]

Getting better.

Both 1 and 2 coats shown below.

205021

[Ausglock]

Getting better.

Both 1 and 2 coats shown below.

205021
Looking good, Dan.
Made a few 1000 of these today as well.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks for the reply. I would like to see a picture of your new dark green color.

The Dark Green metallic, is attached. It is similar to Dark Green, but has a Pearl appearance.

205028

205029

[Grmps]

Pretty.... Your going to make me buy more powder Joe:groner:

[wlkjr]

I coated 1200 9mm 147 grainers today, half of those black and the other half candy apple red. My small bottle of Kryptonite green had gone bad. It had a brown coating I could see through the bottle. After shaking for several minutes, the brown coating seemed to be getting lighter and coming off. I decided to discard it and squirted the contents into a barrel. The spout stopped up before I could empty it. I opened the top and dug out a big chunk of gunk that looked like caulk. That mixture was probably about 6 months old. I keep all my supplies in a cabinet with doors and my shop is climate controlled. This is not the first time this has happened. I usually mix just enough to do about 2000 or so boolits. Sometimes I have a couple of ounces left. It's cheap enough to make that I'll probably discard the remaining mixture unless I plan on using it in the next month or two.

[asmith80]

That's interesting. I was noticing something similar with my batch of Kryptonite Green, the only difference is I noticed it after I had already coated bullets. I thought it was just me cooking them a little too long, and the color changing but maybe I just need to stop being a cheapskate and mix up another batch.

They shot just fine regardless of the reason, but they certainly look a lot prettier when they're the right color.

[HI-TEK]

That's interesting. I was noticing something similar with my batch of Kryptonite Green, the only difference is I noticed it after I had already coated bullets. I thought it was just me cooking them a little too long, and the color changing but maybe I just need to stop being a cheapskate and mix up another batch.

They shot just fine regardless of the reason, but they certainly look a lot prettier when they're the right color.

Just my two cents worth with settling matters, when the coating mixture has been made up ready for coating, letting it sit for extended periods can cause settling and compacting of ingredients, as well as loss of solvent.
The product should work OK but it is better when sediment is totally re-mixed in again, even if you need to add a little solvent to compensate for evaporation losses.
Mixtures are reasonably stable aside from sedimentation, and viscosity and colour may darken somewhat, and changes will depend on period of storage.

[wlkjr]

I mix mine in 60ml batches which is about enough to do two coats on 1500 .380 boolits with a little left over. I coated 2500 today in three different colors. The greens are the most sensitive to higher heat and longer cook times. It appears that the metal flake type colors are the ones that seem to jell up a little.

[dansedgli]

Has anyone else experienced bullets being really hard to size with 2 coats but fine with 1 coat?

I thought it was my sizing die but I tried sizing a batch that only had 1 coat on them today. 1 coat seems fine. Bullets with 2 coats can be really hard to size and often the lead is smeared down past the base into a small skirt.

I'm going to try and do a 2nd coat on the sized single coated bullets tonight and see how it goes.

[Ausglock]

Dan. Give Joe a call and get the sizing Lube. It is bloody brilliant.
You using the Lee push through sizer die?
Polish the guts of it with mothers polish.

[Grmps]

Trevor, how do you keep the sizing lube from plugging up the tip of the spray bottle??
When I coat I do bigger batches so I don't coat that often.
I bought 2 bottles from Donnie and they are both plugged tighter than a ...

Cheers

[Ausglock]

Trevor, how do you keep the sizing lube from plugging up the tip of the spray bottle??
When I coat I do bigger batches so I don't coat that often.
I bought 2 bottles from Donnie and they are both plugged tighter than a ...

Cheers

If they are plugging, you are mixing it too strong.

You can take the nozzle out and rinse under running water.

[dansedgli]

Yeah it's a lee sizing die.

I polished it when I was trying to sort out the coating problems.

I think I might stick with sizing after the 1st coat. The results are way better and it's easier on my arm.

Before nearly every 2nd bullet would be really hard to size and would develop a lead skirt. Some of the coating would thin out and flake even though it passed the tests.

I just sized 40lbs and only had 2 that were hard to size.

These were coated and cooked in the same way. 2 coats then size on the left. 1 coat, size, 2nd coat, size on the right. Both sides were done today.

205168

[ioon44]

I size on a Star sizer and use the Aqua lube 5000, this helps with hard sizing. Some times when I hit a bullet that is really hard to size I find that it is over size from the bullet mold not getting closed all the way.

[wlkjr]

My question is what size do those boolits drop out at and how far down are you sizing them? I also use the Aqua Lube 5000 before sizing and it aids tremendously. I usually size after the second coat and if necessary coat a third time. I size my 147g for 9mm at .356 and my .380 95g at .357.

[dansedgli]

I only have cheap verniers. Im getting .358 before and .355 after. My lee sizing die is labelled .356. It could be more accurate than my verniers.

[benellinut]

I only have cheap verniers. Im getting .358 before and .355 after. My lee sizing die is labelled .356. It could be more accurate than my verniers.

You can't reload quality ammo without having a way to measure accurately, I'd stop casting and reloading until you get a good set of calipers. I have a Brown and Sharpe
https://www.amazon.com/Brown-Sharpe-599-579-4-Resolution-Specifications/dp/B0002FTZL8 and I have a few cheaper digital, but if you go cheaper you MUST check them and often, I even check my B&S often, the cheap digital I check EVERY time I use them, only takes seconds. Pick a couple gages and keep them with the calipers, drop down menu on this page to pick the size you want, your choice, say maybe a .250 and a .750, use both so your check more then one size, more then one spot on the calipers. https://www.amazon.com/Vermont-Gage-Steel-Tolerance-Diameter/dp/B0006JCB2U DO NOT use bullets for gages, even jacketed are too soft and can get dinged and worn, spend $10 on good gages meant for the job. My 2 cents.

[Grmps]

I only have cheap verniers. Im getting .358 before and .355 after. My lee sizing die is labelled .356. It could be more accurate than my verniers.

Not necessarily!! Lee sizing dies have been known to be off. I've had to enlarge some and send some back (it's a lot harder to shrink a hole)


I prefer a Starrett micrometer for checking the diameter and a caliper for lengths.
That's just me, everyone has their own preferences.

[dansedgli]

Not necessarily!! Lee sizing dies have been known to be off. I've had to enlarge some and send some back (it's a lot harder to shrink a hole)


I prefer a Starrett micrometer for checking the diameter and a caliper for lengths.
That's just me, everyone has their own preferences.

I figure the 135's i have shot out of this gun using the same sizer worked well so I am ok.

Now that I finally have the coating sorted I will load some up and test for accuracy on the weekend.

[benellinut]

Not necessarily!! Lee sizing dies have been known to be off. I've had to enlarge some and send some back (it's a lot harder to shrink a hole)


I prefer a Starrett micrometer for checking the diameter and a caliper for lengths.
That's just me, everyone has their own preferences.

I have Starrett's from 1 to 5 inches, I used them when I was twisting wrenches for rebuilding engines and transmissions, back when we use to rebuild just about everything, now it's pull and replace. It's the test gages that came with those mic's that I use for checking my calipers. I'd sell the mics if anyone could use them, I don't use them anymore.

[Ausglock]

Starrett's or Mitutoyo are what I use for Verniers and Micrometers.
MX micrometers are good quality for a cheapie. Non digital...old school.

[benellinut]

Starrett's or Mitutoyo are what I use for Verniers and Micrometers.
MX micrometers are good quality for a cheapie. Non digital...old school.

Yeah, holding a mic, twisting the drum between your thumb and finger with just the right "feel" is satisfying. I shun the mics that have the cheater friction thimble on the end, Dad was a tool and die maker and taught me as a wee lad how to use a mic correctly, he wouldn't let me use the cheater, said you have to learn "the feel". We would pick random things to measure, I would measure, read the dial then he would check to see if I was right. I will say, digital calipers are quick and easy, especially for someone using them for the first time, I confess I use digital on my reloading bench, don't know what Dad would have said about that, well that's a lie, I do know LoL. I like calipers for reloading because I can measure down the neck of a loaded round from the crimp on down, can't get that pinpoint of a small area of a measurement with a mic. I know mics tend to give you a more accurate reading in a lot of cases, but for reloading "I" don't need to split hairs that close, but then again I'm not a bench rest shooter turning necks and trying to get each shot in the same hole.

[asmith80]

Can the Aqualube be used to size between the first and second coat? I have some I was planning on using, but didn't know if I should wait until after the second coat to use it to prevent contaminating anything

[Grmps]

Can the Aqualube be used to size between the first and second coat? I have some I was planning on using, but didn't know if I should wait until after the second coat to use it to prevent contaminating anything

Yes, Aqualube was made for that purpose and is the only lube (that I know of) that can be used between coats of Hi-Tek.

[DerekP Houston]

The Dark Green metallic, is attached. It is similar to Dark Green, but has a Pearl appearance.

205028

205029

I'm really liking the look of that compared to my 'zombie green'. I have so much powder already but I'll probably get some new colors to try as well. I like the gunmetal version too.

[DerekP Houston]

Just my two cents worth with settling matters, when the coating mixture has been made up ready for coating, letting it sit for extended periods can cause settling and compacting of ingredients, as well as loss of solvent.
The product should work OK but it is better when sediment is totally re-mixed in again, even if you need to add a little solvent to compensate for evaporation losses.
Mixtures are reasonably stable aside from sedimentation, and viscosity and colour may darken somewhat, and changes will depend on period of storage.

My results, I tried leaving it in hair salon type plastic dye bottles. The solvent completely evaporated and left me with a solid mass. I just tossed the bottles out and made fresh ones and it is back to the proper color. I'll stick to mixing up small batches from now on.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Jumping back into the thread again after about 100 pages. Failed the smash test for the first time yesterday. I've overcoated boolits while I was learning and increased their diameter by .008", and they still passed the smash. My most recent batch is the best one I've ever done as far as looks go, actually followed the directions this time, thought I was golden. Whacked three of them with a hammer, got this all three times

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0BzfwlWsoZaPxaTZINno0WXJ3dlk

Where did I go wrong? This is getting frustrating.

10 grams of powder, 1.75oz of acetone, 100 boolits at a time, plenty of dry time, 390 degrees for 9 minutes.

[Lakehouse2012]

Jumping back into the thread again after about 100 pages. Failed the smash test for the first time yesterday. I've overcoated boolits while I was learning and increased their diameter by .008", and they still passed the smash. My most recent batch is the best one I've ever done as far as looks go, actually followed the directions this time, thought I was golden. Whacked three of them with a hammer, got this all three times

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0BzfwlWsoZaPxaTZINno0WXJ3dlk

Where did I go wrong? This is getting frustrating.

10 grams of powder, 1.75oz of acetone, 100 boolits at a time, plenty of dry time, 390 degrees for 9 minutes.Id try more heat and not worry about color until you know they work.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Ausglock]

Did you smash after the first coat?
I really like to pre-heat the tray of bullets that is next into the oven by pacing on top of the oven. makes me 110% sure they are "dry" before baking.

[Grmps]

Possible causes:
1. Dirty alloy?
2. First coat to thick (old coating gets thick in the container, add more solvent) and use less coating, 1 mil to less than 1 pound of boolits on the first coating
3. First coat may not be completely dry (high humidity can cause this)
4. Oven temperature not right (try taking the temp up to 400* and confirm with an oven thermometer on the shelf your baking on


Like Trevor, I like to dry the freshly coated boolits at least 10 min on a wire rack in front of a fan then set them on a spacer on top of the oven for another 10 min to be 110% sure they are dry before baking (they will be warm to the touch)

You can't dry them to much :)

[DerekP Houston]

If the first coat is too thick, subsequent coats will *not* fix it. If you think the bullets got contaminated with oil a quick acetone bath with the next batch will cure that. I would mix up a fresh batch of solvent + powder and try recoating. Mine is slightly thinner than the recommended but I've found it easier to do 3 light coats.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Being that I've passed the wipe and smash tests every time, I actually forgot about smashing until I was all done, and forgot about wiping until I got on the thread and was reading through (still haven't wiped).
Edit: Wiped, slight discoloration of a paper towel with acetone, like nearly invisible.


As for dry, I live in Colorado, it's semi arid, the day was low humidity, and it was about 75 degrees. Each batch had about 15 minutes to dry in a nice breeze after coats, and I got no bubbling during cooking.

Dirty alloy occurred to me, but I use a bottom pour, and I smashed three bullets from different molds and different hours of my casting the day before, so I'm pretty sure the issue lies in my coating procedure.

Fresh batch of coating, I had mixed the last batch way too thin and it took my 7 coats to get .001" of coating, so I dumped that mix and did a re-do. I also ran three different batches of 100 boolits each, every one of them got slightly different amounts of coating, from "maybe too thick" to "that's way too thin" and got the same smash result with each.

Oven has a separate thermometer inside, on the tray, a tick over 400 degrees when empty, holding almost dead on at 390 after the door was opened and a tray of boolits put in.

It was recommended to me by a local caster that I try MEK vs acetone due to the humidity levels here, I guess MEK evaporates slightly slower. I need to get a can on my next trip to the store, could it be something that simple? I also gave that guy an entire tub of Old Gold, as I couldn't get it to work, thinking maybe this sparkly green would work better, but..... He said the Old Gold worked fine for him, so I'm obviously the problem.

[Grmps]

Don't get frustrated, it's something simple and we just need to figure out what.

If you are mixing it 20 to 100 you can go 20 to 120 for better adhesion

Some put a heat retentive media in the bottom of their oven to help the oven recover faster after the door has been opened. I use ceramic BBQ briquettes, some use firebrick and other pieces of metal.

100 boolits is a small batch, with small batches you need to be doubly sure as to the amt of the coating to the weight of lead. A nerd could probably explain this better than I can. when you coat, s certain amount of coating will get dispersed in/on the coating container. you run to small a quantity the dispersion rate changes. I like to run 8 pound loads (7 mil to 8 pounds first coat) and have had good luck with 5 pound loads (4+ mill to 5 pounds)

How old is your acetone?

Many of the coatings need to be well agitated immediately before coating especially the metallics.

Making sure the coating is completely dry and warming the boolits really helps
http://i.imgur.com/mLBMrYx.jpg (https://imgur.com/mLBMrYx)
this is the metal "spacer" I use on my oven to pre-warm the boolits usually 1 bake cycle (10 min)
http://i.imgur.com/j9fNt8V.jpg (https://imgur.com/j9fNt8V)

Try adding a couple more minutes to your bake time. If the coating starts getting dark due to the longer bake time then you can back the time off a little. Dark boolits pass the tests and shoot just fine

another reason for smash failure is not baking hot enough long enough.

[Ausglock]

My tray on tube spacers
https://i.imgur.com/QsAeVEr.jpg

[Avenger442]

I always hate to be the lone voice of dissent here but, I don't think flaking off of the coating is not one of the signs of under cooking either with temperature or time. While I've never tried it I think I remember reading that you can smash a bullet right after drying and if properly coated will not flake. Wiping with solvent is the only test for under cured bullets that I know of. And to fail that test it will take it down to the lead. Don't worry too much about a little color on your rag. Joe or Trevor can correct me if I'm wrong.

I magnified ThaDoubleJ's image to see if I could get a better idea of what shape of flakes he is getting. Would have been nice to see one smashed on a white paper towel and the photo taken of that. And to see if I could tell if this looked like my too thick first coat flaking. I really couldn't tell. The first coat is the problem I think. Like most of you are saying it is either too thick, not completely dry (which by the way are two different conditions that can occur separate from each other or together) or there is some kind of contaminant on the lead. ThaDoubleJ's second post seems to eliminate most of those. The one thing that I see that can be tried is drying longer or warmer, again, what some of you including Trevor have suggested. It is what I would try first.

This reminded me. I shot some flaky bullets the other day in the .308. I'm not suggesting you do this because it can leave lead in your barrel. These were bullets that I found in my cabinet from about three years ago. They were coated without gas checks to see if I could shoot close full house loads without the gas check and Hi Tek. Didn't work. They had already been sized ounce after the first coat. I installed gas checks and resized them. I didn't smash them again but had separated them into groups by weight and taped the different groups together with masking tape and marked the tape with weight. When I started removing them from the tape to load I noticed some of the coating coming off on the tape of about ten percent of them down to the lead in small spots. Well I ran short of the number I wanted to load with the ones that didn't flake so I loaded some of the flaked bullets and shot them last. They still grouped well at about 1 1/2" five shots at 100 yards. And while I didn't clean the barrel didn't see any signs of leading. What does this tell me. Well they don't have to be perfect to shoot well. But we need to strive to make them perfect so they shoot perfect. :bigsmyl2:

[Ausglock]

Yep. A higher temp or longer bake time will not fix a first coat that isn't completely "air dry" or is "too thick"

[slide]

Could you go to your buddy's house and coat and bake some of your bullets? Might learn some more as to what is going on.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Ok, as for acetone age, unknown. A decade wouldn't surprise me, I'm not even sure why I would have ever purchased acetone, but I have two cans of it. Maybe to clean paintbrushes.

I have a 340gr boolit in the bottom of the mix container, and I give about a ten second swirl before squirting as the metallic bits seem to settle as they sit, and I squirt while it's all still spinning.

I think I'll switch to MEK and then try a little more drying, and a little more baking, maybe closer to 375 degrees.

I was expanding case mouths today, and having trouble getting these boolits in them, they measure at .455. Unfortunately, I forgot to measure any prior to coating, so I've either slathered on .003" of coating, or the mould is dropping them fat. I measured a bunch though, and it's a two cavity mold, and they're all .455 or .4545, so I'd guess I might have slathered too much again, but I had a full hundred with almost no coating on them after the first coat, and they don't smash good either.

By the by, these are 230gr and 252gr 45s

I've 45/45/10'd all the 230s and sized them down to .452, gonna shoot them anyway, casting with a 2-hole takes too long to throw them back in the pot. I'll take all this advice under consideration and report back after my next attempt, thanks everyone.

Slide: You know, I probably could, never even crossed my mind. He's a guy from a jobsite I frequent, and we talk guns, and I bet if I brought up my troubles he might offer some help. If I can't get it to work with the above ideas, then maybe I'll give that a shot.

[MAGA]

Question about smash test pass/fail

I was doing the routine smash test a few minutes ago, I work second shift so I get off late and had one batch left to smash test. I didn't want to wake the neighborhood so I used a vise instead of a hammer.
When smashing the bullet no coating flaked off. I was examining the smashed bullet further and just happened to scrape it with my fingernail, I could make some coating come off of the already smashed bullet this way. It would not come of by smashing with a hammer itself though

Normal?

[Ausglock]

Question about smash test pass/fail

I was doing the routine smash test a few minutes ago, I work second shift so I get off late and had one batch left to smash test. I didn't want to wake the neighborhood so I used a vise instead of a hammer.
When smashing the bullet no coating flaked off. I was examining the smashed bullet further and just happened to scrape it with my fingernail, I could make some coating come off of the already smashed bullet this way. It would not come of by smashing with a hammer itself though

Normal?

Sort of?
A vice puts slow pressure on the bullet as it deforms.
A hammer has shock loading on the bullet. Just like firing them.
Once it is smashed, you should not be able to scratch any off.

[Ausglock]

Well... Spent the coin and had my STI Trubor 38 Super upgraded.
It was 4th hand when I bought it. Had done a lot of work and the chamber was very sloppy. Fired brass was badly expanded and had started to jam in the chamber. Sent it to A brilliant gunsmith here in OZ. Victor Precision in Brisbane.
He bead blasted and hardchromed the entire gun. Chambered and fitted a new STI TruBor barrel. Installed and tuned the Cylinder & slide trigger kit, and covered the grip in Carborundum for a slip free grip.
Below is before and after. Fired it today for the first time.
200 rounds of 38Super loaded with 125gn Conicals with 2 coats of Kryptonite green. Barrel was shiny clean and the comp was free of any sign of lead... This was from a Brand new, never fired barrel. This HITEK is bloody great stuff.
https://i.imgur.com/xrlrXvA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b2t4Dgi.jpg

[Grmps]

Nice rehab. Bet your Smith is super busy. You never mentioned whether you actually hit the target or not :bigsmyl2:

[benellinut]

Well... Spent the coin and had my STI Trubor 38 Super upgraded.
It was 4th hand when I bought it. Had done a lot of work and the chamber was very sloppy. Fired brass was badly expanded and had started to jam in the chamber. Sent it to A brilliant gunsmith here in OZ. Victor Precision in Brisbane.
He bead blasted and hardchromed the entire gun. Chambered and fitted a new STI TruBor barrel. Installed and tuned the Cylinder & slide trigger kit, and covered the grip in Carborundum for a slip free grip.
Below is before and after. Fired it today for the first time.
200 rounds of 38Super loaded with 125gn Conicals with 2 coats of Kryptonite green. Barrel was shiny clean and the comp was free of any sign of lead... This was from a Brand new, never fired barrel. This HITEK is bloody great stuff.
https://i.imgur.com/xrlrXvA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b2t4Dgi.jpg

Nice! I love 1911's, I'd love to have an hour with that one! I use to shoot Bullseye matches, I have a dedicade 1911 .45 wadgun with an Ultra Dot that will shoot better then I can and another I started with Millet target sights. I tried my hand at action pistol with the later a couple times, what a hoot that was! I did better then I expected but I had to choose which game I was going to play, with family I didn't have time for both so I went with the winter Bullseye matches, had more time during winter. There were a couple guys who had Colt .38 Super's converted to shoot .38 Special, I always wanted one but there were not cheap to have built or buy used. If memory serves me right the Bullseye rules wouldn't allow the .38 Super, it would have been much less expensive to use a Super then convert one to Special. I was in my late 40's, climbing close to bumping up from Expert when I started having spine problems in my back and neck, pinched nerves in my neck developed a shake in my right arm I couldn't control and within a few months my groups opened up and scores plummeted, soon it became frustrating, the fun was gone and I gave it up. I miss it dearly but I'm fortunate to have plenty of plaques, metals and great memories, it was time to make room for the younger guys.

If your striving to always improve, push hard, as hard as you can, don't think you have all the time in the world because one day you won't. Push hard, have fun, shoot em up and keep em in the X ring! :drinks:

[MAGA]

Ok one more question

I have been using a 1500W toaster oven in conjunction with an oven thermometer. I have been doing batches of up to a little over 4 lbs at a time

I'm finding some that fail the smash test, they will have small amounts of little small flakes come off ( what another member called dusting).

I saw where HI-Tek joe said bullets must reach 180 c for 3 minutes while in the oven

My problem is that even baking 12 minutes with the trays preheated on top of the oven the thermometer never reached 400F for 3 minutes.

So In order to bring the temp back up I would turn the oven way up to 500 and allow it to slowly return the internal temp to 400F ( I watched the whole time and did not let it exceed 400F on the thermometer)

So my question is should I just leave it set on 400F and just let it bake until I know that the bullets reach 400F via thermometer even if it takes 15-20 mins?

From reading through the thread it will not hurt to bake the bullets longer than 12 mins just don't exceed 400F correct?

I also plan on doing less bullets in a batch to help temp stabilize faster.

[Grmps]

set your oven thermometer to where the thermometer in the oven reads 400
put some kind of heat retaining material in the bottom of your oven to help the temperature return to 400 faster ( I use ceramic BBQ briquettes, others use firebrick, pieces of metal or ??)
Flakes/ bumpy coating is caused by coating/swirling to long 10-15 seconds then dump, it's OK to dump wet.
the first coat should be thinner lets than 1 mil to 1 pound
It is OK to over bake, all that will happen is the color will get darker. you could bake them till the color gets darker then back of a minute.
400 --410 so far as I know, not a big deal, wouldn't go over 410.
You could check goodwill or thrift stores of a better (convection oven) they can be had for 10 to 20 $

Really think you need a better oven

[Ausglock]

You are overloading your oven. Reduce your bullet load to 1/2 of what you are doing and try again.
Higher temp/longer time will only darken the colour, as stated by my acolyte above.

[HI-TEK]

I'm finding some that fail the smash test, they will have small amounts of little small flakes come off ( what another member called dusting). Flakes after baking is generally caused by application of too much coating with first coat, and not drying adequately. If in doubt about dryness, simply bake only a few to test to determine if the pass smash test after first coat.
If they fail smash test, dry more, even if warm air drying at about 45-50C, then re-test bake a few again as comparison.

I saw where HI-Tek joe said bullets must reach 180 c for 3 minutes while in the oven. That is correct. But coating must be totally dry, this is of paramount importance with first coat.

My problem is that even baking 12 minutes with the trays preheated on top of the oven the thermometer never reached 400F for 3 minutes. You may get away with smaller batches, as it is obvious that your oven is not up to the task for larger loads as is. Insulation on walls may help with heat losses.

From reading through the thread it will not hurt to bake the bullets longer than 12 mins just don't exceed 400F correct? No that is nor quite correct. You can bake theses coatings until they become black, and they will work OK. Extra heating is not what makes coating fail.

I also plan on doing less bullets in a batch to help temp stabilize faster.Great idea, as from your description your oven is low in capacity.

My replies as per Red inclusions.
Hope that they are useful

[Ausglock]

Tested a few new colours for Joe last night.
Ask him to post the pictures of the blood red and the Caramel (carmel to you lot that can't use the Queen's English).

[HI-TEK]

Tested a few new colours for Joe last night.
Ask him to post the pictures of the blood red and the Caramel (carmel to you lot that can't use the Queen's English).

Your wish is my command oh great one.....:kidding:
These are mark 1 test colours, and may require some tweaking to get colour perfect
206067
206068
206069

[MAGA]

When should I apply gas checks to rifle bullets?
After first coat?
After second coat when sizing?

[MAGA]

Also is there a time limit after applying before baking? Say if I coated some bullets tonight and let them dry for 2-3 days or a week and then bake them will it hurt anything waiting that long?

[Ausglock]

Also is there a time limit after applying before baking? Say if I coated some bullets tonight and let them dry for 2-3 days or a week and then bake them will it hurt anything waiting that long?
Will not hurt them. I have left some coated and unbaked for a month. worked fine.

[MAGA]

Thanks for the reply

I took your advice and upgraded my oven to a convection that I found at goodwill for 9 dollars
It's a 1500w convection oster brand that looks very similar to your's in your pics
It's much bigger capacity than my older non convection oven.
I can fit 2 of the bed bath and beyond wire baskets side by side in it.
Will your's handle 6 or so pounds of bullets at a time? I thought about trying 2 trays of 3 pounds each if the oven will keep up.
I have a thermometer so I guess there is only one was to find out lol

[Ausglock]

My oven will bake 2.5Kg (5Lb) at 200 Deg for 12 minutes. One tray only.
I have a clay paver block in the bottom of the oven as a heat sink.

[Grmps]

first double check the oven setting to reach 400°
2nd install heat sink to shorten recovery time
3rd start at 14 min for 6 # of boolits if/when they pass the rub and smash test youu can shorten the bake time 1 min and try another batch.
keep shortening the bake time until they fail the tests (if they fail, put them back in the oven for 2 min longer than the time you used when they failed they will get darker but are perfectly shootable). (your min safe bake time will be 2 min longer than the fail time) if you get down to 10 min and still pass the test , just run with it.
I run 6-8 pounds for 12 min in my smaller convection oven , havent tried loading the bigger oster up with Hi-Tek yet but it does fine with 2 9x11 trays full of PC

[MAGA]

I just want to say anyone on the fence about a convection oven making a difference...... don't be

It's like a night and day difference from non convection!


Question how long do I need to be waiting after they come out of the oven to wipe/smash test them?

[wlkjr]

I set mine under a fan and they are usually cool enough in about 10-15 minutes.
The coating seems to get a little tougher with age.

[Avenger442]

When should I apply gas checks to rifle bullets?
After first coat?
After second coat when sizing?

Noticed no one answered this so will tell you what I do most of the time. I coat once and add check sizing at the same time. Then coat 1-2 more times depending on how much pressure I'm going to put on it. Most of the time I do three coats just for insurance. It doesn't take that much more time. Keep in mind that some guns accuracy may be affected by the couple of mils (maybe wrong term probably better to say extra thickness) that are added to the bullet. I've got one gun that if I coat once then gas check while sizing and coat twice more accuracy is good. If I coat three times and then add gas check while sizing accuracy suffers.

Your right about convection oven. The convection went out on my $15 yard sale oven. Cooked a couple of batches without it and there were many different colors in the tray. Also forgot to plug up the convection fan on my new oven once. Same thing happened. If you are looking for "purdy" you have to have even heating. I've done six pounds in my new oven and it handled it OK. If you have a new oven with a thermometer (not knob on oven) controlling temp in the oven you should be good.

[Grmps]

If you size between coats, you need to have a completely clean sizing die or use ONLY the lube made specifically for Hi-Tek
"AQUALUBE 5000 CONCENTRATE" http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/sizing-lube/
Otherwise, the second coat will not adhere properly.
If you're not using this lube often you will need to clean the spray tip after every use or it will get plugged up.

[MAGA]

Before I jumped into casting I tried some commercially casted hi tek coated ACME brand bullets, I have a few left over so I just tried the wipe/smash test on them.

These ACME commercially casted and coated bullets failed both tests :shock:

Oh well they always shot good anyway, even in 9mm!

[Grmps]

They failed both tests and you got no leading?
Were you using gas checks?

[MAGA]

They failed both tests and you got no leading?
Were you using gas checks?

No!
Absolutely zero leading 9mm 2.8gr titegroup and acme 145gr rn

[Recluse]

When should I apply gas checks to rifle bullets?
After first coat?
After second coat when sizing?

Howdy, I jumped on the Hi-Tek coating within a few weeks of learning about it and the stuff becoming available. I've found for my rifle calibers (30-30, .308, .303 and 30-06) I can seat the gas checks using the Lee push through sizer and then coat my boolits. I give everything I do three light coats of Hi-Tek, baking the initial coat for between fifteen and twenty minutes depending upon the size/weight of the boolits. The larger, heavier projectiles get a longer initial baking. Then two more light coats and a baking of ten to twelve minutes each. After the last baking, I dump the hot boolits into a tray of water, pull them out and let them air dry. Afterwards, I run them through the sizing die.


Also is there a time limit after applying before baking? Say if I coated some bullets tonight and let them dry for 2-3 days or a week and then bake them will it hurt anything waiting that long?

I often let my first coat dry overnight before baking. It is my understanding that it is the heat/baking that actually activates the coating--so letting them sit coated but not baked has no adverse effect.


Before I jumped into casting I tried some commercially casted hi tek coated ACME brand bullets, I have a few left over so I just tried the wipe/smash test on them.

These ACME commercially casted and coated bullets failed both tests :shock:

Oh well they always shot good anyway, even in 9mm!

I've paid no attention to the smash test as I've never fired a boolit out of any firearm that got smashed in the barrel. My criteria is accuracy first, leading second.

:coffee:

[asmith80]

Before I jumped into casting I tried some commercially casted hi tek coated ACME brand bullets, I have a few left over so I just tried the wipe/smash test on them.

These ACME commercially casted and coated bullets failed both tests :shock:

Oh well they always shot good anyway, even in 9mm!

I've had this happen with some Bayou Bullets that were about a year old. Not sure why, but they didn't lead the barrel even after they failed the smash test.

[Avenger442]

I've been telling you guys that I have shot flaky bullets before:bigsmyl2:
They were just like my sister. She has always been a bit flaky.

[slide]

Avenger 442,I sent you a p.m.

[slide]

I need some recommendations on convection ovens. I have gone through three in the last three years. I know you generally get what you pay for but right now I am strapped for money after going through a divorce. I will be looking at wal-mart. Anybody had good luck with any particular brand? Before this divorce happened that last two ovens were wal mart but supposed to be good quality. Oster and Hamilton Beach. I am beginning to think you might has well buy the lowest price convection oven you can find. I can buy two Black & Decker convection ovens for what I paid for the Oster. Beginning to think it is a roll of the dice. There is a five year warranty on the Oster but they won't honor it because I am using it for coating bullets.

[wlkjr]

I think mine is the B&D. I paid $59 for it. Has been working great for over a year. It is the large model.

[ioon44]

Check out used appliance dealers, I bought a used full size built in convection oven for $75.00 and have been using it for about 2 years with out any problems and can bake 10 to 12 pounds of bullets in 12 min at 400 deg, also get a digital thermometer with a K type probe to check the actual oven temp.

[benellinut]

Check out used appliance dealers, I bought a used full size built in convection oven for $75.00 and have been using it for about 2 years with out any problems and can bake 10 to 12 pounds of bullets in 12 min at 400 deg, also get a digital thermometer with a K type probe to check the actual oven temp.

Might have better luck with small private owned dealers then big box stores, most appliance dealers haul away old stoves (and other appliances) when they deliver a new one, the old unit's go to scrap yards. Big box stores aren't likely to sell the old units, they don't want people to have access to cheap used unit's, they want to sell you a new one. A smaller private own dealer would be more likely to get rid of a old unit especially if you tell them what you'll be using it for and they understand it wouldn't be hurting their sales of a new one, who would buy a new stove just for baking lead bullets? Also, you'd be saving them from hauling one less unit to the scrap yard.

Last week I finally found a decent convection counter top oven for $10 at a goodwill store, it's one of the older B&D's models that walmart sells --> https://www.walmart.com/ip/BLACK-DECKER-6-Slice-Digital-Convection-Toaster-Oven-Stainless-Steel-CTO6335S/21582275 It took me six months of hitting all the goodwill stores to score one but they do pop up now and then and you have to jump on them before someone else does. I could have increased my chances of finding one but I don't make special trips to the goodwill stores, I make it a point to hit them when I'm in the area. Same goes for pewter hunting at the goodwill's, other's are out there looking for the same thing's, timing and karma is everything. :wink:

It would also be worth while to keep an eye on craig's list and some of the other post it for sale web sites, shop from home. If I had been quick enough I could have scored a new in the box stove vent hood off craig's list for $20 in July, I missed it by a day. :( It was a cheap basic unit but the price was right and it would have done the job for casting and baking bullets.

Last thought, black friday is almost on us, sign up for email alerts NOW with any place that sells these ovens. I'm already getting black friday preview ads, If I see a deal on one I'll post a heads up here.

[Ausglock]

I need some recommendations on convection ovens. I have gone through three in the last three years. I know you generally get what you pay for but right now I am strapped for money after going through a divorce. I will be looking at wal-mart. Anybody had good luck with any particular brand? Before this divorce happened that last two ovens were wal mart but supposed to be good quality. Oster and Hamilton Beach. I am beginning to think you might has well buy the lowest price convection oven you can find. I can buy two Black & Decker convection ovens for what I paid for the Oster. Beginning to think it is a roll of the dice. There is a five year warranty on the Oster but they won't honor it because I am using it for coating bullets.
If it is not holding temp, the so called "thermostat" is rooted.
I have had 3 ovens go like this. I bought $5 300 Deg C Bulb/capillary thermostats from eBay. Opened the oven up and mounted the new one where the old one was. Drill a few mounting holes and they are working fine after 2 years.
Remove the rotissery motor and run the bulb/ capillary in through the same hole and seal with silicone.

https://i.imgur.com/DpC9Eug.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GGBuMtJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/x2vwpvj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/n701Zec.jpg

[slide]

Thanks guys! Ausglock,thanks for taking the time to post the photos.

[Grmps]

For the guys down under
https://i.imgur.com/O7eAgNa.gif

[slide]

Not much of a fishing buddy!

[benellinut]

For the guys down under
https://i.imgur.com/O7eAgNa.gif

A Roo's equivalent of Eastwood's "get off my lawn"

[Ausglock]

Bloody Roos are a menace.
I have about 40 of them hanging around my place.
Came home from work and there were 5 of them lying under the awning of the carport where I park my Ute (truck to you lot).
They didn't want to move either.
In Summer, I put dishes of water around the yard so they can drink. They like to lay in the shade of my shed.

[benellinut]

Bloody Roos are a menace.
I have about 40 of them hanging around my place.
Came home from work and there were 5 of them lying under the awning of the carport where I park my Ute (truck to you lot).
They didn't want to move either.
In Summer, I put dishes of water around the yard so they can drink. They like to lay in the shade of my shed.

Do they bother people much? I'd worry about having them around kids. Other then that I think it kind of neat to have roo's in your yard, guess they could be a pain in the rear but the only roo's around here are stuck in a zoo, I feel bad for them being caged and not free to roam.