simple Hi-Tek coating

[Ausglock]

Don't sweat it. Zombie Green works just as good as the others.

[Grmps]

Trevor, You still use a heat fan when it's 40 degree C there?
Would a regular fan not work? Or does it just cure / bake better preheated to 50*C
Just my 2 cents, I like Kryptonite green better than Zombie green it has metallic flakes in it and can withstand Higher heat like for rifles.

[Ausglock]

When its hot and low humidity, No heat needed other than resting the next tray to bake on top of the oven.
Even if it is hot but Humidity is high, I will use the heater.

[Ausglock]

Pre-heat setup when using a wall oven.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20170112_095603.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20170112_095603.jpg.html)

Wall ovens are very well insulated, thus there is little heat coming off the top of the oven to pre-heat the trays prior to baking.
So, I use a Cheap fan heater to pre-heat the trays. I bake 2 trays at once, So 2 trays are getting warmed up on the top shelf of the rack.
Once they are in the oven, the trays on the lower shelves get moved up one, and fresh coated trays of bullets go on the bottom shelf. This allows constant baking/coating with no waiting.
Notice the stainless trays on the top shelf have turned brown? I put this down to the out gassing of the coating. Acetone will not bring it off. Baking trays are for baking only. Other trays are kept for coating/drying only.

Notice that the 2 trays in the oven have only been in there for 1 1/2 minutes (7 1/2 minute bake time) and the oven is already back to set temp of 200Deg C.

Just for everyone's information.

[ioon44]

My wall oven has a vent tube in the top of the oven and it gets plugged up with material from the out gassing of the coating and I have to keep cleaning it out. This comes out like yellow snow when the convection fan is running.
Does every one have this issue with there ovens?

[Ausglock]

Yep. There is a vent between the top of the door and the control panel plate. Yellow snow is right. I suck it out with the shop vac when it gets too much.

[Scorpius]

So what's the ratio for say a small batch of 150-300 bullets? I'd like to test it one some casting I did last week


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marky123]

1ml per 400g/1lb

[wlkjr]

So what's the ratio for say a small batch of 150-300 bullets? I'd like to test it one some casting I did last week


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For me it is 1 level measuring tablespoon to 55 ml of acetone for a small batch. Then apply per amount of bullets. A little goes a long way.

[Grmps]

For me it is 1 level measuring tablespoon to 55 ml of acetone for a small batch. Then apply per amount of bullets. A little goes a long way.

If you measure instead of weigh your powder you could be looking for problems. the powder is different densities for different colors, it also settles so your end result will vary.
best to go 10 grams = .353oz. to 50 milliliter = 1.69 fl oz weigh 1.384 oz ACETONE for small batches of coating solution


+1 1ml mixed solution per 400g/1lb of bullets

"So what's the ratio for say a small batch of 150-300 bullets? I'd like to test it one some casting I did last week"

You didn't state the weight of the bullets. Hi-tek is based on weight of coated bullets. 1ml mixed solution per 400g/1lb of bullets
ALWAYS AGITATE THE MIXED SOLUTION WELL JUST BEFORE MEASURING AND COATING
1) don't go heavy on the solution! a lighter, thin coat (will look terrible on first coat is what you want for good adhesion, second coat makes them purdy)
2) don't swirls to long, 10 -15 seconds ( OK to dump wet, swirling till dry can make them grainy)
3) make sure they are completely dry before baking use a fan to blow under and over the bullets (it helps to put the bullets on top of you oven for 10 min to warm before baking)
4) it's safer to over bake than under bake (they just get darker), start at 12 min on table top convection oven

[wlkjr]

My methods and mixtures work for me so no need to change them. They may not work for anyone else.

[Gremlin460]

if you are going to coat a smaller batch, mix 20/100 as per normal. The mix lasts for months. it dosent care if you take a little out, or a lot.
Mixing smaller batches "MOSTLY", always ends in tragedy. If you only want to coat 100 or 150 still mix at 20/100. The mix will store well in a cool dark place.
I personally have use 8 month old mix that had turned BLACK in the bottle... but the colour came out fine. Dunno how that worked, maybe Joe can tell us why.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Gremlin460; The mix will store well in a cool dark place.
I personally have use 8 month old mix that had turned BLACK in the bottle... but the colour came out fine. Dunno how that worked, maybe Joe can tell us why.[/QUOTE]

Well, .... Gremlin, it has to do with the Drop Bear extract I use lol.... it does not take kindly to exposure after it has been re-liquefied.

I have tried to explain, that the coatings do darken in solution with aging. The cooler it is kept, out of Sunlight the longer mixtures will last. Viscosity may increase, but further solvent dilution will take care of that.

UV light and heat, will start to darken product. Hardening/curing is achieved with heat setting of dried coated films as with baking process.
Until coatings are baked, they can be used, but as you found, colour may suffer but performance should not.

[Ausglock]

I left a jar of mixed coating sitting the the shed for a week with the lid let off by mistake.
It had evaporated about 2 inches down in volume. I just added more Acetone back up to the high tide line in the jar and shook it for awhile. It works just as good as fresh mixed coating. colour was perfect.
I think Grem's went black due to QLD not having Daylight saving.

[Warhead]

Just wanted to say I have coated and shot almost 1000 200gn H&G 68s with the Black K-15, and the coating has been nothing but a absolute pleasure to use!
It's covers great in two coats, and baking is super easy, I don't need to worry about the color being wrong if I over bake it a little. Right now I just coated up some 375H&H's to see how they do!

[Ausglock]

I use the Black K15 for covering all the horrible sample colours HItek Joe sends to test.
It is very forgiving.

[TonyN]

Iv been trying hitek for a while and no matter what I do My coating flakes. I'm using Bronz 500. I try the wipe test and it will show lead if pressed firmly. I'm baking at 375 For 15 min.. I'm really lost on what I'm doing wrong. Even at 400 degrees it won't work. I have a extra large convection oven and I moniture it with a oven thermometer. If someone knows what is going on I would love to know. Iv called Donny a lot of times and can't get it right.

[HI-TEK]

Iv been trying hitek for a while and no matter what I do My coating flakes. I'm using Bronz 500. I try the wipe test and it will show lead if pressed firmly. I'm baking at 375 For 15 min.. I'm really lost on what I'm doing wrong. Even at 400 degrees it won't work. I have a extra large convection oven and I moniture it with a oven thermometer. If someone knows what is going on I would love to know. Iv called Donny a lot of times and can't get it right.

TonyN,

First, I did receive your PM today.

My comments on your post is as follows;
1. You will get no adhesion if you coat too thick with first coat, then not dry it adequately. Unfortunately, many think that these coatings must be applied very thickly or use much too much mixture and tumble too long when coating. This idea/process is totally incorrect.
2. First coat must be applied very quickly (10-15 seconds) with shake coating, just enough to barely coat. Then dump onto drying mesh. (Use 6mls of 20g/100 mix to 250 bullets)
3. Thoroughly dry first coat, (warm air dry, if there is humid or wet or cold conditions).
4. After you think they are dry, take a only a few , bake these at 200C for 10 minutes. Take them out, cool them and examine and test.
After this is done, please provide a detailed report of your results findings, and if possible post picture of the few that were baked.
5. Don't bake the rest until we first examine the few you cooked first. Storing balance of unbaked coated projectiles will not cause problems later on.

MOST IMPORTANT. The fact that you cook the coatings at your set temperature, the cooking, does not fix problems associated with inadequate drying or over application of coatings. The cooking simply will expose any preparation inadequacy as the coating will simply heat set but it wont be bonded. Applying a second coat, after baking first coat, which failed, will not fix first coat adhesion problems. You have to ensure that first coat is bonded well first, and is OK after baking. If not, you need to examine why first coat failed.

[Ausglock]

TonyN.
Do this.... Don't think... Just bloody do this.....It works......Read this a few times. Print it out... But Follow it to the Letter!!!!


1. Weigh out 20 grams of HITEK powder.
2. Measure 100mls of acetone or MEK. (NOT bloody nail polish remover or anything like that. It MUST BE Pure Acetone.)Diggers brand is fine. Stay away from Septone.
3. Get glass or plastic jar
4. Add the powder to the jar and then add the 100mls of Acetone.
5. Put lid on the mixture and shake the schit out of it for 2 minutes. You will feel it get warm as it reacts. LEAVE IT FOR 1/2 HOUR BEFORE YOU USE IT TO COAT!!!!!!!
6. Add about 200 to 250 bullets(about 2Kgs to 2.5Kgs) to the plastic bucket. lid is NOT needed.
7. Shake the coating. Suck up 6mls of coating and squirt it back into the jar. Now suckup another 6mls and Immediately add it to the bullets in the bucket.
8. Shake the bucket of bullets and coating. Remember... you have to have the bullets and coating mixing around just like a cement mixer does. The bottom of the bucket should be wet with coating.
9. Keep shaking, swirling until the rattle of the bullets changes to a dull thumping. you will hear the change really easy.
10. dump the coated bullets onto your drying tray and shake the tray side to side until the bullets have leveled out on the tray. don't worry about them touching. it doesn't matter.
11. If you think there isn't enough colour on the bullet, then you have the coating just right. Leave them alone for at least 10 minutes. then warm them with a hair dryer or Fan Heater.
12. turn on your oven and pre-heat to 200deg C. While the oven is heating up, place the tray of Bullets on top of the oven to pre-warm them.
13. place tray in the oven.
14. set the oven timer for 12 minutes. not 6 or 8. But a full 12 minutes.
15. when the oven turns off, remove the tray of bullets and let them cool. do not touch them until cool.use a fan to speed up the cooling
16. when cool. take 1 bullet. lay it in it's side on a steel base and smash it with a hammer. the coating should not flake off.
17. Take another bullet and get some acetone on a white cloth and wipe the coated bullet for 30 seconds and see if the colour comes off. if it does. place back into oven and bake for another 5 minutes. ( I have found 12 minutes per bake is enough).
18. When the bullets are cool, place back in the bucket and repeat steps 6 to 17.
19. when 2nd coat has cooled and has tested OK, Size and shoot.

This is really easy to do. the biggest mistake is not shaking immediately before coating or not baking long enough or at a too low temperature.

If your coating passes the wipe test but smashes off, You have used too much coating. remember... it is a stain, not a paint. a little goes a long way.

Do not try to process small lots of 10 or 20 bullets. you are only wasting your time and you WILL get the schittz cause it will not work.

OK. Now See what you get after following this TO THE LETTER!!!!
Thanks.

Where are you located???? Bit bloody hard to call if you are anywhere but OZ

[Marvin]

i haven't been doing it for very long and i had the same problems as you. but once i read the instructions and followed them i made great bullets, it's hard not to add more coating for that first batch as the first coating looks to thin to work but after the second coating it look good and shoots better

[HI-TEK]

i haven't been doing it for very long and i had the same problems as you. but once i read the instructions and followed them i made great bullets, it's hard not to add more coating for that first batch as the first coating looks to thin to work but after the second coating it look good and shoots better

Thanks for your post. You are right with your advice.

I am convinced, that there seems a concept or idea, of "thick is good" and works better.
But those thoughts are unfortunately not correct. You only need enough Hi-Tek film to separate bore and alloy during resident time inside barrel.

As I have said many, many, many times previously, if done correctly, one thin blotchy coat should work. Second or additional coats, simply improve cosmetic appearances and should cover most imperfections left with thin first coat.
For some applications, a third very thin coats may be required, but that is not the norm.

Looking at it another way, if first coat fails tests, don't bother to re-cook, it wont fix adhesion failure problems, as coating will not re-activate and bond to alloy with additional cooking.
Do not then re-coat, to try and fix bad first coat, as applying second coat, wont fix first coat failure problems.

I am wondering now, after having seen this sort of problems arise a few times, if may be I should have suggested a 10g/100mls mixture, to be used as a primer coat, using the same 6mls to 250 bullets as the first coat.
Then, after all is OK with this first coat, user then apply the 20g/100mls as second final coat.
My reasoning is, that if first thin coat bonds OK to alloy, and passes all tests, then subsequent coats will bond to previous bonded coat, and finish would be functional, and finish would be also pleasing to users eye.

[TonyN]

Marvin I'm 1.5 hours away from you. I'm in Ft.Wayne In.

[TonyN]

Thanks guys.....

This is how I did it.

100 ML acetone to 20 grams powder
1ML to 1 lb bullets
Shake in container for 30 sec. The sound changes.
Oven at 375 even 400 maid them darken more then I feel they should. 12 to 15 min. I would air cool them for 30 min. Once I pulled from oven I did a wipe test that if I pushed harder then just barely putting pressure they would show lead. The smash test would flake some.

I'll bug you guys till I get this down lol..

[TonyN]

I'll try you guys method and post pics.

[Ausglock]

What is your alloy??

[TonyN]

So 200C would be 400degrees feh.?

[HI-TEK]

Thanks guys.....

This is how I did it. My replies HI-Tek

100 ML acetone to 20 grams powder OK that seems fine
1ML to 1 lb bullets OK That seems fine
Shake in container for 30 sec. The sound changes. May be not OK. You only have to shake until you see alloys coated, 10-15 seconds is plenty. I suspect that you shook too long.
How long did you dry. How did you determine if coatings were dry before cooking?
Oven at 375 even 400 maid them darken more then I feel they should. 12 to 15 min.Baking temperature and time at this stage is not important, as you don't know if what you were cooking was totally dry. Coating will darken with cooking at elevated and prolong conditions but extra heating it does not stop adhesion, only moisture will.
I would air cool them for 30 min. NOt important
Once I pulled from oven I did a wipe test that if I pushed harder then just barely putting pressure they would show lead. The smash test would flake some. This should be telling you that you did not dry adequately before cooking, and or had too much coating on first coat, or both.

I'll bug you guys till I get this down lol.. You can bug away all you like, but please take on board suggestion supplied so far.

[TonyN]

I'll for sure give feedback. My lead is WW and water Quench. I make sure it's a clean bucket.
Will these shoot great in Glocks?

[Ausglock]

Bloody Wheel weights.

They really are Mystery Metal these days.
Not like the old days when WW was reasonably uniform in hardness.

I really think anyone having problems should at least try a few KGs of Hardball alloy to rule out Alloy issues.

200Deg C is 392 Deg F (Google)
Some who use WW say that the hardening of Water quench is removed when the coating is baked.

[TonyN]

Ok I'll try 400 degrees for 12 minutes. If I don't quench there around 13 BRN. Would the coating protect this soft lead? Will these not lead with a glock barrel? I'll get pictures when I try this.

So you guys thinking my coating is to thick? I'm doing 1 ML per 1 pound bullets.

[ioon44]

I water quenched thousands of bullets in the 1990's and what minerals or other contaminants that are in the water is now on your bullets and is most likely why the coating is failing.

I use the Hardball alloy and have zero failure rate.

I am doing a test with 1 coat of Gun Metal mixed 20/100 so far on leading in my 1911 and PPQ 45.

[wlkjr]

Tony, if I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like you are going directly from coating to baking and then doing a 30 minute cooling process. There should be a drying process of the coating before putting in the oven to cook. The acetone has to properly evaporate before cooking. Maybe I read it wrong.
I put mine under a fan for at least 20 minutes and set the tray on top of the oven for about 10 minutes to preheat the bullets. You'll eventually get the hang of it and it won't be so difficult.
I am shooting .380, 9mm, and .45acp all out of Glocks with no leading.

[TonyN]

I coat let dry 30 min then bake 15 min. Then let cool then coat and wait 30 min then bake again..

I'll cast without water quenching and see how it goes.

[GregP42]

Ok, question, 6ml to 2kg, no matter bullet weight right? Because I couldn't lift 200-250 of these bullets I am playing with right now.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

[TonyN]

I'm doing 5 lbs bullets with 5 ML powder mix.

[Ausglock]

Ok, question, 6ml to 2kg, no matter bullet weight right? Because I couldn't lift 200-250 of these bullets I am playing with right now.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

That is correct. Bullet weight doesn't matter, so long as you use 6mls to every 2.5Kg of alloy.
If you want to, you can drop back to 5mls for a thinner first coat to try and ensure first coat sticking correctly.

[TonyN]

Another question before I try this.
Is a 5 gallon bucket to big for 250 bullets? When I coat the bullets I would shake the bullets for 30 seconds till I heard the thumping sound like you are talking about. So 10 to 15 seconds instead? There is a lot of liqued if I did it for 15seconds .

[wlkjr]

185616Is what I use. A different one for each color. And they're cheap too.
I snap the lid on to keep them from swirling out but take it off after about 20 seconds and swirl until the sound changes. The experts say no lid but it works for me.

[TonyN]

I always did and thought you where suposed to do 30 seconds each coating.

[Gremlin460]

Another question before I try this.
Is a 5 gallon bucket to big for 250 bullets? When I coat the bullets I would shake the bullets for 30 seconds till I heard the thumping sound like you are talking about. So 10 to 15 seconds instead? There is a lot of liqued if I did it for 15seconds .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svu6oHcd7d0

old video but may give you an insight.
Mike.

[Grmps]

I always did and thought you where supposed to do 30 seconds each coating.

Tony, HI-TEK is the industrial chemist that created Hi-Tek coating and Ausglock is the field tester for Hi-Tek coatings. They've been using this stuff for 20+ years It does no good to ask questions IF you don't do exactly what the experts tell you needs to be done. Please, print out post # #8019 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?204174-simple-Hi-Tek-coating&p=3916776&viewfull=1#post3916776) and follow the instructions exactly. Hi-Tek was developed and used extensively in Australia by commercial casters. Gremlin is also an old hand at coating. Watch his video and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6MoF8u4rHk they are using an all liquid mix, once they components are combined into the hi-tek solution, the rest of the process is the same. If you follow the instructions exactly and watch the 2 video's and still have a problem then ask.
When it comes together you'll kick yourself for how easy it really is.

PS I used these for tumbling http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-2-5-qt-Natural-Multi-Mix-Container-3-Pack-210216/204303497 2.5-qt. Natural Multi-Mix Container (3-Pack) $5.94
until I made an electric tumbler/mixer

[wlkjr]

I always did and thought you where suposed to do 30 seconds each coating.
I do swirl for at least a total of 30 seconds. With a lid on my container I swirl for 20 seconds and get a really even coating and then remove the lid and swirl for another 10-15 seconds until the acetone flashes off and the sound changes and the swirling slows down. Then I dump them on the tray and spread them out. I put them under a box fan turned horizontally and let them dry another 30 minutes or so before putting into the oven for about 12-14 minutes.

[TonyN]

I did the 10 min with 4 projectiles as requested and maid a batch of 10 grams with 100 ML acetone. Swirled till hearing the solid sound. Around 20 sec. The one projectile was rubbed on acetone for 30 seconds with medium pressure. As usual there was some rub off but not a complete rub off. The smash test passed without any flaking. The convection oven was at 400 degrees for 10 min. I use a thermometer in the front of oven and rear.

[TonyN]

The last picture was 2 dark ones after first bake and the light ones are ones not naked yet. 10 grams powder to 100 ML acetone.

[Ausglock]

OK... you are nearly there.
Use the exact same mix, but bake for 12 minutes.

Are you really really really sure 100% sure that you oven is really really at 400Deg F?????? Really?
Don't say you are using a $1 oven thermomenter.
I mean an accurate PID thermometer with K sensor probe. They are accurate! everything else is not accurate.
Without accuracy, there is no repeatability.

Accuracy is my thing.
My real job, I am quality assurance/ Production Supervisor for a large Hardwood drying and dressing plant.
I like accuracy and thus, repeatability

[GregP42]

That is correct. Bullet weight doesn't matter, so long as you use 6mls to every 2.5Kg of alloy.
If you want to, you can drop back to 5mls for a thinner first coat to try and ensure first coat sticking correctly.

Sweet, at 2.5Kg that is 34 bullets :) Yes they are big boys, when I have them right I will post a picture.

Greg

[Ausglock]

I coated a few 100 12Ga slugs and some 310gn 45 pills.
Used 6mls per 2.5Kg and all worked fine. the 12Ga was pure soft lead.
No issues.

[TonyN]

No... I'm not sure but they read 400 dead on. I have a Bluebird just like yours but it reads 100 No matter what I have it at. The bottom is set at 88 C for my thermometers to read 400 degrees. I had the bottom red set at 200C before and the Top still read little over 100. The thermometers where reading 550 degrees. I emailed the manufacturer And I had to have a receipt to get it replaced as I received it as a gift so I don't have that for proof. I'll have to buy another probe on the net I guess.

[ioon44]

I went through 5 or 6 of the cheap oven thermomenter's which all were up to 50 deg F +/-, when I started using an accurate PID thermometer with K sensor probe most of my baking problems went away.

When drying I find that getting the bullets to at least 100 deg F for 30 min insures the coating is really dry, this maybe over kill but then I am not having any failures.

[TonyN]

where can I get a good K sensor probe at to replace my bluebird one?
I'll try 12 min. Bake tonight and see how it goes

[ioon44]

I got mine off e bay but I'm sure that there a lot of other good sources, automotive or home repair stores.

The colder the weather the harder it is to get total drying.

[Grmps]

try putting 2 oven thermometers in the middle of the shelf you bake on. see what your oven setting has to be to get them to 400 degrees, cool oven and check it a couple times. this will work in a pinch until you get a PID which will both read and control the temperature. Some people put fire brick or ceramic briquettes in the bottom of the oven to help hold the heat for when the door is opened.

[TonyN]

I have lead projectiles in the bottom of the oven already to help.
I also baked the bullets at 400 degrees and still lead showed thru. The temp dropped to 350 for the first 5 minutes before returning to 400

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=TonyN;3918780]

I have lead projectiles in the bottom of the oven already to help.

Does your oven have fan air circulation? With heating, it is the projectiles that need to be heated to at least 180C, and kept there for at least 2-3 minutes thereafter.
You need about 200C to drive the heat into load of alloy inside your oven.
Heat from hot air inside your oven, needs to be transferred into your alloy. Best way is to have a cyclone air circulation inside oven. This also will speed up heat recovery as air movement will carry heat from element also.

I also baked the bullets at 400 degrees
You really don't know what was the alloy temperature inside your oven. Oven thermometer can say whatever it wants, and measures hot air temperature, but that is not adequate to determine what was alloy temperature at the 10 minute bake time.

and still lead showed thru.
I don't understand "still the Lead showed through" Please explain what you mean here.

The temp dropped to 350 for the first 5 minutes before returning to 400[/QUOTE
This is telling me, that your oven heating may be inadequate or you over loaded your oven, or both. Air temperature recovery is also directly affected, if you have poor air circulation inside oven, especially if air cannot circulate around the load.
HI-TEK

[TonyN]

The last batch was without preheating when it fell 50 degrees. This time around is when I did the preheat oven with this last batch of bullets and I put the whole amount in. Pictures are included. I believe as stated ore hearing the bullets for sure won't shock the oven so it doesn't drop temp. This next coating will be The 20 grams powder and 100 ML acetone. First batch was the 10 grams powder 100 ML acetone.

I meant by seen lead is when I did the wipe test there was some lead showing thru.

I was wanting to know when you do the wipe test how hard should I press for the 30 second test?

[TonyN]

Preheated with 15 min. At 400 degrees

[dikman]

So you haven't been pre-heating the oven first? You have to get the oven up to temp. before putting in the boolits. My little oven overshoots initially when heating up, it's at that point I put the tray in 'cos it tends to compensate for the heat loss when opening the door. As for swirling, I've found 10-12 seconds is generally enough, 30 seconds sounds like a long time to be swirling.

[TonyN]

Yes I preheat the oven

[TonyN]

Final coat with 20 grams powder and 100 ML acetone. This time i don't have any rub off with 30 second rub a light pressure. The smash test was good to me as pics show. One had a very little flaking. But I'll let you judge. I put bullets on the oven as it preheated right after I put 22nd coat on so they where drying and hearing up at the same time.
The only thing is they are not a solid Bronz or ate they supposed to look like this? In the picture? Yhrt are darker in spots and not in other spots.

[HI-TEK]

Final coat with 20 grams powder and 100 ML acetone. This time i don't have any rub off with 30 second rub a light pressure. The smash test was good to me as pics show. One had a very little flaking. But I'll let you judge. I put bullets on the oven as it preheated right after I put 22nd coat on so they where drying and hearing up at the same time.
The only thing is they are not a solid Bronz or ate they supposed to look like this? In the picture? Yhrt are darker in spots and not in other spots.



You are almost there.
Colour variation on same tray is exposing, that you have hot spots in your oven an also cold spots. That way you are over cooking some (darker colour) and others are what it seems like being OK.

Bronze colour is telling me that you may not have pre-mixed or had not taken a representative mix to use for coating. However you are not far off being OK.

[TonyN]

So what do I need or shoul I do? Would these lead in a glock?

[TonyN]

Also I'm shaking very good right before I measure. I do everything pretty fast so it doesn't start to settle as I measure.

[HI-TEK]

Also I'm shaking very good right before I measure. I do everything pretty fast so it doesn't start to settle as I measure.


I advise, with using it on a Glock, that you get the process perfect first. If you don't, and you get Leading, I predict, that you may complain. Just a guess.....lol...

Mixtures, are very thin (low viscosity). Particles settle very quickly, and I have some doubts about you getting representative mixture to coat.
When you shake, then put down mixture, to get a syringe to take coating mixture, the majority of solids would settle.
What Ausglock said, and repeated many times is, that you use a syringe, suck up the mixture, squirt it back, and immediately re fill syringe. Squirting back first syringe, stirs up mixture, and immediately re-drawing up with syringe, you get more a representative mix to coat with.

[Ausglock]

Again... read my instructions and follow them to the letter.

[TonyN]

I pull the plunger out then shake the bottle then I poor the hitek into the syring then putt the plunger back in a squirt it onto the bullets.

So the color that is described is from the flakes setteling to fast? I'm going to do the 20/100 mix again for both coats next.
What else do I need to do to get this perfect? Just shake it better ?

[Ausglock]

I pull the plunger out then shake the bottle then I poor the hitek into the syring then putt the plunger back in a squirt it onto the bullets.

Why pull the plunger out???? Just suck the coating up! why make it so difficult????

So the color that is described is from the flakes setteling to fast? I'm going to do the 20/100 mix again for both coats next.
What else do I need to do to get this perfect? Just shake it better ?

Yes.Don't pizz around between shaking and sucking up the coating.

[TonyN]

Yes.Don't pizz around between shaking and sucking up the coating.

I have a clear ketchup bottle so I take the cap off and put my finger on it and shake it then pour.

Its my oven as I put 3 bullets in at 400 for 15 min and one coat and they where solid bronz and didn't chip or rub off at all. I'm going to try 2.5 pounds this time instead of the 5 lbs.

My convection oven is digital so I need to know how to bypass the digital controlers to us my PID with it

[HI-TEK]

i have a clear ketchup bottle so i take the cap off and put my finger on it and shake it then pour. i hope you had gloves on

its my oven as i put 3 bullets in at 400 for 15 min and one coat and they where solid bronz and didn't chip or rub off at all. I'm going to try 2.5 pounds this time instead of the 5 lbs. you will have longer baking time, and now you have to keep an eye on the larger load< to stop cooking when it reaches same colour as your # projectiles. Take note of how long that will take with baking.

my convection oven is digital so i need to know how to bypass the digital controlers to us my pid with it,
this site has plenty of advice how a pid is used. Search pid controls

[Warhead]

I just wanted to let everyone know, the 375 H&Hs coated with 2 coats of K-15 black worked great, no leading at all, I was getting some really weird fliers, but hopefully as I work up a load those will go away, but again, no leading!! :-D

[HI-TEK]

i just wanted to let everyone know, the 375 h&hs coated with 2 coats of k-15 black worked great, no leading at all, i was getting some really weird fliers, but hopefully as i work up a load those will go away, but again, no leading!! :-d


great news. Thanks much for the post. That k-15 black is very slick, and you may have to up your sizing needs a little, to stop flyers.. What alloy are you using?

[marky123]

185774
Next stop on the hi-tek train

[Warhead]

great news. Thanks much for the post. That k-15 black is very slick, and you may have to up your sizing needs a little, to stop flyers.. What alloy are you using?

Lino, mixed 50/50 with range scrap, water dropped after 2nd coat.


I forgot to say the mold is the Lee 379-250-RF sized to .376

[ioon44]

185774
Next stop on the hi-tek train

That is going to be my next stop on the Hi-Tek train also.

[TonyN]

How hard is needed when testing the wipe test?

[Scorpius]

First coating.... just coated, not yet baked. Drying now. Gonna give them about 45m or so.
looks correct? Zombie green.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/0a69aaaebd85b3ee60d1d4c420ca75f9.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marky123]

They can look fantastic but if they fail the tests you've wasted your time

[Avenger442]

Joe
I know this has probably been answered before but, is there any reason I shouldn't throw a bunch of leftover coatings into one container and use it? They are several different powder colors and a bit of liquid coating. Most of it is under three months old.

Tony N
The pressure I use is about the same as the pressure I use with a pen or pencil while writing. You don't have to clench it real hard. Let the acetone do the work. My experience has been you can expect a little color on the rag with some of the powder colors. Wiping that dissolves large amount of coating and all the way down to the lead is a definite fail. If you get that give them a few more minutes in the oven at 400 F.

[Scorpius]

They can look fantastic but if they fail the tests you've wasted your time

Edited.....they're coated and drying. 1st coat not yet baked


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;3921051]Joe
I know this has probably been answered before but, is there any reason I shouldn't throw a bunch of leftover coatings into one container and use it? They are several different powder colors and a bit of liquid coating. Most of it is under three months old.


Avenger
All the coatings are compatible with each other, so you can mix them and use them successfully, in whatever ratio you want. You can end up with peculiar colours, and, if it works out that you get a colour you like, you will never be able to reproduce it.
I assume that you want to make up all powders as liquids to use? Are the liquids you are trying to use catalysed, or are they liquids made from powders?
If they are liquids made from powders, they should be OK. If it is catalysed liquid, it also should work but extra care must be used to ensure that mixture is kept out of sunlight and heat.

[HI-TEK]

Edited.....they're coated and drying. 1st coat not yet baked


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They should go green after bake.
They look as you used much too much coating. Make sure you dry them very well before cooking them, even if you have to warm air dry.
Test a few in oven first before baking the whole lot, to make sure that they will be OK after bake.

[Scorpius]

I have them in convection oven with fan to move air at lowest setting being 100 degrees to ensure they dry. Mixing up my gun metal rifle batch now.

Funny...gun metal at least starts out looking blue for some reason.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/02a9cc88148f072182682f1ecb3ddee5.jpg


Out and cooling before all testing

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/8b398107b5c078bf3866249b42a62b79.jpg

And the gunmetal now out of oven
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/446ad48ba8047d1dc3fa50c57b2ac533.jpg

On to second coat.... rub, fingernail and hammer test passed!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/6a781d9e34197dc9ff5bbbe0ec367028.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TonyN]

Hi-tek I was wondering how hard should I press down when I'm doing the wipe test?

[Avenger442]

Joe

I went back and read my post and it wasn't clear so I'll try again. All of the coatings have been mixed and yes the liquid is catalyzed. They have been sitting around
in different containers. Some are too small of an amount to start using for a batch of bullets. So I'm going to throw them all into one container and use it. I'm not concerned about the color as much as the performance which, up to this point, has not disappointed me.

Thanks for the reply.

[HI-TEK]

Hi-tek I was wondering how hard should I press down when I'm doing the wipe test?


The wipe test is simply to see if you had set the coating with baking.
If it comes off with solvent, after baking, then the next coating mixture will strip off previous coating and will make a mess..
Once a coating has set, correctly, you can rub as much as you like, and coating should not come off as it is no longer soluble in solvent.

That information is included on coating instructions already.

[Scorpius]

All done. Settled on a third coat. Love the color


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170123/d00faab096305c7566435e00ea7e6b12.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marky123]

Hi-tek I was wondering how hard should I press down when I'm doing the wipe test?
If you rub too hard the coating will come off by mechanical action rather than chemical.

[dikman]

Marky, that looks very Heath Robinson-ish sitting on your bench.

Scorpius, yep, Gunmetal comes out a gorgeous blue when mixed, it's rather a shame it changes colour when baking.

[Ausglock]

If you rub too hard the coating will come off by mechanical action rather than chemical.


BULLSCHITE!!!!!!!!!!!
If the coating is applied and baked correctly, the ONLY way to get it off is by bloody removing alloy and coating together.
Jesus!!!!!!
Stop spreading BULLSCHITE info....

[marky123]

It's not finished.

[Avenger442]

185912

185913

This is the 45-70 first coat, of the mixed together colors, wipe and smash test. It looks like the color I will not be able to duplicate is going to be kinda like Army green. Just a tad of color on wipe, it looks like the dark blue, after 390-400 F for 12 minutes. Two more coats and loadem up to go to the range.

[Ausglock]

Is this the liquid coating or the powdered stuff. or both??

Ad a bit more catalyst to the mix if you have some.
I mix a heap of different colour leftovers together all the time. saves tipping it out.

[HI-TEK]

All done. Settled on a third coat. Love the color



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170123/d00faab096305c7566435e00ea7e6b12.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great looking product, Very creative advertising. Thanks much

[Avenger442]

Is this the liquid coating or the powdered stuff. or both??

Ad a bit more catalyst to the mix if you have some.
I mix a heap of different colour leftovers together all the time. saves tipping it out.


It's a little bit of the liquid Gold 1035, some powder Bronze 500, a little powder Gun Metal, and powder Dark Blue. There wasn't enough of the 1035, 500 and Gun Metal to coat another batch with three coats so those are small amounts. After throwing it all in one container I should have enough for another 20 or 30 lbs of bullets.

Will give you a photo of the finished bullet latter.

[Scorpius]

Great looking product, Very creative advertising. Thanks much

Feel free to use it or if you want different background and lighting let's discuss how and I'll set it up for you :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TonyN]

12 min. At 400 degrees in home oven. Still lead showing with rub test.
Maybe a bad batch?

[HI-TEK]

12 min. At 400 degrees in home oven. Still lead showing with rub test.
Maybe a bad batch?

No picture of cooked product

[HI-TEK]

12 min. At 400 degrees in home oven. Still lead showing with rub test.
Maybe a bad batch?

My impression, alloy and coating has not reached correct temperature, and possibly not in oven long enough. That Yellow colour is similar to Yellow Gold not Bronze, which is more brownish.

[TonyN]

Ok everyone.. Did 20 min.and looks great. Had couple that when I rubbed 20 to 30 sec very little shiny lead showed. Some didn't show at all.

I'll ask the pros but I think I have it. Doing 2nd coat just waiting on it to dry. Couple pics of the first coating.

[HI-TEK]

Ok everyone.. Did 20 min.and looks great. Had couple that when I rubbed 20 to 30 sec very little shiny lead showed. Some didn't show at all.

I'll ask the pros but I think I have it. Doing 2nd coat just waiting on it to dry. Couple pics of the first coating.


Thanks for update.
Your oven seems most probable with your failures. The last picture with coated baked alloy, you had light Yellow coloured coated alloy and also more Bronze (darker coloured) alloy.
This is telling me that you have inadequate heat circulation inside oven, and this is resulting in hot spots which over bake and colder spots which under bake.
You probably got failure with the under baked coating, and passes with correct darker shaded baked alloy.

[TonyN]

Second coat.

All passed wipe test except 2 have very little that showed lead. I didn't take a pic as it would not show on the camera. All passed smash test except 2.

[marky123]

Nice work what's your alloy please?

[Ausglock]

Second coat.

All passed wipe test except 2 have very little that showed lead. I didn't take a pic as it would not show on the camera. All passed smash test except 2.

Show me a closeup of where you can wipe the coating off to show bare lead.

[TonyN]

Show me a closeup of where you can wipe the coating off to show bare lead.

I posted one as a example last night. Its the first picture from then. If you don't see it I'll repost it.

[Ausglock]

I see it. But it doesn't make sense!
How the hell can you have bright bare lead showing???? It is not logical.

[TonyN]

Maybe it rubbed off. The thing is I didn't see any wipe off. I did another batch and it didn't rub off. I think I'm good. I have a toaster convection oven now with a PID and it seems to hold perfectly. I trashed The oven I was using.
What other colors are the most popular?
I like the bronz because it reminds me more of a FMJ.

[ioon44]

The colors I like best are the Bronze 500 and Candy Apple Red. I have been able to shoot Bronze 500 t over 1400 fps with out any leading and use it mostly for 9 mm, the Candy Apple Red gives a nice solid color with 2 coats. All of the other colors I have used work great also.

[Avenger442]

I would have to ditto the Bronze 500. It's a good performer. Also like the Gun Metal. 186082Both shoot well in rifle and handguns.

Have wanted to try the Candy Apple and Zombie Green in my handguns. Thing is, I have five colors on hand. They will probably coat anything I would cast for the next five or six years. I only cast for me and this stuff goes a long way. My wife is already giving me a hard time about the number of molds and other stuff I have stored up. I just remind her how many purses and shoes she has. Seems to cut the conversation.

[TonyN]

Do I need to quench after last coat? My lead is testing at 10 BRN.

[Grmps]

Depends on caliber and speed you intend to shoot and sometimes the gun

[Ausglock]

Do I need to quench after last coat? My lead is testing at 10 BRN.
Well. that is probably why you can scratch it off......Lead AND coating scratching off....

[Avenger442]

Do I need to quench after last coat? My lead is testing at 10 BRN.

Tony

Do you know the composition of your alloy? Is it 1/20 Tin/ Lead? Or does it contain some antimony? Maybe wheel weights both clip on and stick on?
Quenching the tin lead alloy will not get you much in the way of added BHN. Some?
With some antimony you might get 1 or 2 BHN more after quenching after last coat.

You can also heat treat the bullets with antimony after you coat. But it will make the color much darker. Did this to some .308 bullets the other day. Depending on how hot you get them for how long, this will really help. Look up heat treating on this forum. It doesn't hurt Joe's coating except for color.

[Scorpius]

Best advice for first time hitek coater. Use your thermometer that you use for casting ingots, I have the rcbs one. Watch your oven and don't let it get above 400. About 380 or so you'll see the outer perimeter of bullets starting to change color and look like they are wet. Heats good right there. It will spread to middle, when middle is wet start your 8-10 minute timer. Keep your temp at wherever it was, as the bullets heat the temp rises some. I open door a quick sec if needed and try to keep mine around 390.
This is my experience. Having read most of this thread and mixed first time results I was not 100% sure my first ones would do well.
They turned out perfect. I did move up to three coats for a better look though.

When tumbling, wet about 1/3 of the bullets and toss like a salad chef. That way bottom ones come to top. Eventually your pool of liquid at bottom goes away and that's about the time you dump and spread them.

To dry....leave 30m if you want to be extra sure just place in your oven for 30 min at about 125 degrees.

Mix ratio....figure 1 powder part to 4 or 5 parts acetone. For pouring make sure you have something that pours from the mouth upside down as that's where your mix settles and it begins to settle quickly. Shake real good and immediately turn over and pour small bit while its mixed. For 150 bullets I'd guess I threw in approximately 2 tablespoons worth. A bit more on my 2nd coat as I could better eyeball the coverage then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ioon44]

When tumbling after swirling a few seconds I toss the bullets like a salad chef I think this gives better coverage than just swirling .

Drying times have a lot to do with the ambient temperature, in the colder weather here I put them in a drying cabinet, 30 min at 125 deg F does the trick every time.

[TonyN]

What is the most popular color for hi tel coating?

[Gremlin460]

What is the most popular color for hi tel coating?

I use colours to keep a record of batches . Gold, bronze, green, etc etc... that way I can track how long they have been on the shelf. Also helps keep track of mixes that I might try from time to time.
I suppose I kinda saying they all work fine for me, so I use the colours for "Other" reasons than looks.

[Ausglock]

G'day All.
Marky 123 Has been having problems getting his bullets to coat.
So, he sent me a handful to try.
Collected them today from the post office and had a look at them. They are a .359 dia Round Nose flat point with a flat base and 1 lube groove and a crimp groove. Bad flashing at the base, but fixable.

I was coating and baking some 160gn RN 9mm bullets, so threw these into the coating/ baking cycle to see how they went.

Applied first coat with 4mls of Kryptonite green. Only 4 mls as there was only 1.5KG of bullets. Let them sit for 30 minutes to "dry" while other trays of bullets were being baked.

They were placed under the heater fan to wait for the next bake. Even though it was 29Deg C here today, Humidity was up at 85%. So the heater fan was used.

Into the oven they went, along with a tray of 160gn as well. 7 1/2 minutes later, out they came and sat under the box fan to cool. 5 minutes later, one was wiped with acetone for 30 seconds... ZERO wipe off!!!!!!!!
Another was smashed....ZERO flaking!!!!!
Now... due to the flashing on the base, I sized all these bullets at .358 after the first coat.
Second coat applied and processed exactly like the first coat.
After cooling from baking the second coat. more wipe and smash testing was done.
ZERO wipe off and ZERO flaking!!!!!!!

One bullet was placed in the milling machine and had it's side machined flat. This bullet was used to do the hardness test using the imprinting of a 5/32 steel ball with the Lee hardness tester.
The imprint measured 0.086" this equals a BHN of 6.7.... Bloody soft!!!!!! Pure lead is 5BHN!!!
No bloody wonder you could scrape the coating off with a fingernail. You were actually scraping lead off too!!!!

Now.... how to fix your coating woes..
1. Use harder alloy
2. Follow my instructions to the letter
3. Verify your oven temp with a good quality thermometer.
4. Get a fan heater.
5. if you can't comply with point 2, just buy jacketed or commercial coated bullets. HITEK coating isn't for you.

Photos.
First coat baked.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_160421.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_160421.jpg.html)

First coat wipe and smash test.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_160657.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_160657.jpg.html)

Second coat baked.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_171024.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_171024.jpg.html)

Second coat Wipe and smash test.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_171012.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_171012.jpg.html)

Lead hardness test imprint.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_170731.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_170731.jpg.html)

Final product.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_171058.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20170127_171058.jpg.html)

As you can see, the Kryptonite green is a nice mid green with gold fleck. Some of the photos posted here for KG are dark brown. Way over temp or baked too long.

This is not rocket science. It is simple and easy to do.
If the instructions say " blah blah blah" DO IT! don't think you know better and can shortcut it down to " Blah " You will fail and get the schites because it fails and then bad mouth the HITEK coating to anyone that will listen.

HITEK coating isn't a "fix all" for poor alloy hardness and poor bullet to bore fit.

You don't have to wait days to apply 2 coats. I applied and baked 2 coats with a sizing in between in less than 1 1/2 hours by using the fan heater to "dry" the coated bullets and pre-warm them prior to baking.

Any questions? Give me a PM.
That is all

[Gremlin460]

When tumbling after swirling a few seconds I toss the bullets like a salad chef I think this gives better coverage than just swirling .



Square containers do something similar naturally.

[Grmps]

Or you could make a cement mixer style coater. put in the bullets, turn it on squirt in the coating, wait 15 - 20 second, turn off, dump to dry ... done. very consistent and easy. Exact same coating motion every time.

[marky123]

Thanks Trev
I knew it wasn't me.
186328PID fitted
186329Smashed n dashed

[Ausglock]

Marky...
You want these back??
Pm me an address or I'll throw them in the melt down pot.

[marky123]

Smelt them with pleasure Trevor

[ioon44]

Square containers do something similar naturally.

Yea, but round bullets in a square container just don't seem natural.


:kidding:

[marky123]

186384Pewter for alloying?

[TexasGrunt]

Pewter will help with mold fill out but not with hardness.

[marky123]

Tin is $79/kg here but antimony is $23

[Grmps]

Pewter is a malleable metal alloy, traditionally 85–99% tin, with the remainder consisting of copper, antimony, bismuth and sometimes, less commonly today, lead. Silver is also sometimes used. Copper and antimony act as hardeners while lead is common in the lower grades of pewter, which have a bluish tint.
If tin is expensive Buy old , junky pewter items at thrift stores or garage sales, melt it down and use it as tin.

[Ausglock]

hit some of the old print shops for stereo type or Linotype.

Or go mine the stopbutt of your ranges

[marky123]

This is finest stamped English pewter so its 98% tin,from the RMS/SS Orcades no less.Cheers!

[Ausglock]

A good source of Anitmony is Hard chilled shot. Download the alloy calculator and input your weights.

[marky123]

Antimony is on the way
Choo Choo hi tek train

[Ausglock]

In what form?
Is is alloyed into lead already?

Is is virtually impossible for the home caster to add pure antimony into lead directly.

[marky123]

No I'll add it directly to the 327C melting point lead pot what could go wrong

[HI-TEK]

No I'll add it directly to the 327C melting point lead pot what could go wrong


Antimony melts at very high temperature than Lead. I am not sure, but I believe that the Lead has to be 500-600C or may be more to help dissolve in the Antimony.
I do not recommend any one to mix in Antimony, unless it is pre alloyed with Lead. You can buy High percentage Antimony alloy bullion from commercial Lead producers. That is safest and simplest way to introduce Antimony into the batch.
That way you do not have to deal with severe high Lead melts, which are dangerous for several reasons.

[dikman]

Marky, I've found the cheapest way is to collect range scrap from my local pistol range (like Trev suggested). Downside is it's a fair bit of work collecting, washing, smelting and pouring into usable ingots. But it's all part of the fun.

I recently bought a $1500 lathe, completely funded by selling smelted and cleaned range scrap. :bigsmyl2: (Time to start keeping some for myself, I guess).

[marky123]

how does it fare with HT?

[Ausglock]

Range scrap coats and shoots fine.

[HI-TEK]

New Colour. It was aimed as being Black Pearl.

Results,186523

[dikman]

Range scrap coats and shoots fine.

What he said, Marky. The stuff I get is pretty well all commercially made, I don't think too many in the club are casting/coating their own. There's some .22 mixed in (close to pure lead) but most of that falls through my sieve. It's tested out to 12-15 BHN, which I suspect is pretty typical for commercial stuff (Trev will correct me if I'm wrong).
No problems with coating, plus I'm experimenting with diluting it down 50:50 with pure lead. Still coats fine.

[Ausglock]

When I was mining my range, the range scrap was around the 12BHN. this included .22 bullets.
Fine for 38/357, 44, 45 as is. And 9mm/38Super when water dropped.

The new Black Pearl is blacker than the Black K-15. It has a silver sparkle to it, Rather than the gold sparkle of the Texas Tea.

[Ausglock]

Black K15 for comparison.

186593

[wlkjr]

It's probably my computer, but I can't tell much difference in the K-15 and Black Pearl. Maybe if they were side by side.

[Ausglock]

You have to have them in your hand, in daylight to see the difference.
I think HITEK Joe is going to increase the silver to give the Black pearl more sparkle.

[HI-TEK]

You have to have them in your hand, in daylight to see the difference.
I think HITEK Joe is going to increase the silver to give the Black pearl more sparkle.


Well, the extra sparkle is the intention. If it works or not, we will soon know.
I am sure Ausglock will give me a hiding if it does not work.

[TonyN]

Some reason my PID says when I set it at 200 C my thermometers say 450. So I have to set them to 175.

[HI-TEK]

Some reason my PID says when I set it at 200 C my thermometers say 450. So I have to set them to 175.

If you are using correct probe for PID, I would trust the PID readout. That may have been one of your problems from the beginning, your thermometer may not be accurate.

[Ausglock]

200Deg C is 392 Deg F
175Deg C is 347Deg F.

Google is your friend.......

[TonyN]

My oven thermometer says the oven inside is 450 If I set my PID at 200C.
So I have to set my PID at 175 C if I want 400F. I have 2 in my oven at a time to check oven temp.

[HI-TEK]

My oven thermometer says the oven inside is 5


WHAT????? 5 ???? what is 5 ????

[TonyN]

If you are using correct probe for PID, I would trust the PID readout. That may have been one of your problems from the beginning, your thermometer may not be accurate.

I wonder the same. I could try it at 200C. If I set these at the temp on the PID at 175 to get the thermometer to read 400F I need to bake for 20 min. I'm the oven to get the bullets to cook proper

[HI-TEK]

I wonder the same. I could try it at 200C. If I set these at the temp on the PID at 175 to get the thermometer to read 400F I need to bake for 20 min. I'm the oven to get the bullets to cook proper

Use the PID set temperature read out at 200C, do not use your thermometer. Your thermometer is not reading correctly.

[TonyN]

WHAT????? 5 ???? what is 5 ????

Sorry it was a typo.

I had the PID at 195C and my thermometers read 425. I'm thinking of trying this for 10 min. And see where this takes me. I'm sure these thermometers are off Some as there 6.00 each. I heard the RCBS lead thermometers are off a lot when you use them in lead. I just received some Kryptonite green so I'll check it out.

[TonyN]

Use the PID set temperature read out at 200C, do not use your thermometer. Your thermometer is not reading correctly.

I just got a new thermocouple that is 4 inches long compared to my half inch that came with my PID. I know it was not working proper. This thermo. Prop is reading a lot better.

[HI-TEK]

Sorry it was a typo.

I had the PID at 195C and my thermometers read 425. I'm thinking of trying this for 10 min. And see where this takes me. I'm sure these thermometers are off Some as there 6.00 each. I heard the RCBS lead thermometers are off a lot when you use them in lead. I just received some Kryptonite green so I'll check it out.

Do not be afraid to cook for more than 10 minutes if required. If you have correct temp readings at 195C (425F as quoted) 10-12 minutes should be OK.
Is your coating dry?
Test only a few, half dozen or so with first bake for 10 minutes. Repeat with same amount as used in first bake, now for 12 minutes, and compare results.
Post pictures of both 10 minute batch and 12 minute batch, side by side after baking.

[Warhead]

New Colour. It was aimed as being Black Pearl.

Results,186523


Very nice, I will be buying some if/when it hits USA shores! :D

[HI-TEK]

Very nice, I will be buying some if/when it hits USA shores! :D

Thanks for your kind comments.
This is mark one version. I am hoping to tweak it to give it more Silvery glitter in Black.
Ausglock told me, that in sunlight, there is quite a difference and noticeable when comparing the K-15 and Black Pearl. Black Pearl has Silvery glitter.
I have yet to make up tweaked version, and hope it works.
I am sure posting will take place, if all is well.

[dikman]

Tony, one of my PIDs came with a short screw-mount stud-type thermocouple that was supposedly a K-type, however when I mounted it in my oven the readings didn't make any sense. I changed to a 4" long K-type (my spare) and all was fine. What brand PID did you get?

[Ausglock]

TonyN.
Mate.
Sorry. But your illogical logic astounds me.

You have a PID with a K sensor that is in the oven and displaying a temperature of 200Deg C.
Yet you are carrying on about an unknown quality thermometer reading high?

Why care about the Poxy thermometer????
Jesus H Christ on the bloody cross!!!!

USE THE BLOODY PID SENSOR!!!!!!
Throw the thermometer to the schitehouse!!! FFS!!!!
Bake with the PID sensor for 10 minutes. If it needs a few minutes more, DO IT!!

I have Benchtop ovens running at 200 deg C and bake 2.5KG of bullets in 12 minutes.

I also have a converted wall oven running at 200Deg C and will bake 5Kg of bullets in 7 1/2 minutes.

Can you see a pattern here???

With temp set at 200 Deg C.... Every oven will be different. YOU HAVE TO FIND THE SWEET SPOT.....FOR YOUR OVEN!!!

No good crying about the same old things here. Nut up and do your testing and stop cheapskating it with $2 gear.

Marky123 has finally seen the light, after crying about the coating not working. I have sorted him out. His alloy is too soft and his oven was less than perfect.
He now has a PID on his oven and is working to get perfectly baked bullets

Nobody can do it for you. You have to put your big boy pants on and do it yourself.
There is more than enough instructions on here. FOLLOW THEM!!!!!!

I use my own instructions and I get perfectly baked bullets.
Stop being a dick and start following instructions.....
Sorry if this hurts your feelings, But sometimes people have to be told the hard facts!!!

If any MODS wish to castigate me for using harsh words or slinging Butt-hurt around, Please PM me.....:lol:

[marky123]

Dont beat around the bush mate,tell it straight.

[Ausglock]

That's me......I run a factory with 56 people... I can't afford to be vague.... call it as I see it..

[Gremlin460]

I buy my antimony from a foundry in 20% pre mixed ingots. I buy pure tin in little cones from the same place.
Using COWW and the EXCEL sheet utility available for free on this site, I mix all my 9MM alloy to 94/4/2 lead/anti/tin and it works well.
Pure antimony in powder form is useless to us home casters, its melt temp is that high, lead will be toxic at that temp required to use powdered antimony.

Even with the 94/4/2 mix, I still waterdrop my second bake straight out of the oven. Its been over 3 years since I have seen ANY leading in either of the 4 pistols that I load for. So I am calling it a success at this point.

[marky123]

I got 23kgs of range lead and 90kgs mixed WW yesterday.I'll smelt it when my lead thermometer arrives and I blag some sawdust

[Ausglock]

What do you want sawdust for? fluxing?
I use beeswax.

[TonyN]

I also use bullet lube.

[dikman]

Marky, I trust you've checked those WWs carefully? The last lot I got had very little lead, they were mostly iron and zinc weights (stick-on and clip-on). The iron won't be a problem (won't melt) but the zinc will be.

[HI-TEK]

Marky, I trust you've checked those WWs carefully? The last lot I got had very little lead, they were mostly iron and zinc weights (stick-on and clip-on). The iron won't be a problem (won't melt) but the zinc will be.

Depending on just how much Zinc contamination is present, it can be treated if not excessive to remove the Zinc.. You can use Lead Oxide, Lead Sulphate, (as found in dead old Car lead acid type batteries), and Copper Sulphate to flux the melt.
The Zinc will be used up with metal displacement reaction. Zinc from the melt, will end up as Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulphate as scum on surface. Lead and Copper metals that the Zinc replaced in the salts, simply becomes part of the batch.
Then simply skim off the scum off top of melt, and sell it or give it to scrap metal recyclers. This way you can use materials to improve your alloy, by using the battery Oxide and Sulphate and recapturing and recycling the Lead from those compounds.
Zinc, and Cadmium are both not good when trying to coat, as these metals chemically react with the coatings, and will not allow good adhesion to such contaminated alloys.
Alloys must be treated to remove these contaminants, or, you can simply talk to alloy manufacturer, and swap your metal for better alloy without contaminants.
Best suggestion is, simply thoroughly examine scrap you use, and avoid any material that does not look like suitable alloy.

[marky123]

I was going to use a layer of sawdust on top of the pot and a tealight candle for flux.As for the composition of the WW,there is a lot of lead,too much,hence the softness of the alloy(6.7).I don't know if any of you have watched NZ TV for any length of time,but handsorting WW is more entertaining and far more interesting.

[Avenger442]

MYPIN series TA PID with a 6" K probe dead center of the oven set at 390 F will swing 10 F +/- in both directions while trying to maintain temp in the oven during bake. The scientifically verified accurate $2 round turkey fryer thermometer in the tray touching the bullets swings between 390 and 400 F. I know Trevor we disagree. That being said, for what a hobbyist needs to spend on equipment they are both as accurate as you need. We do not do our coating in a lab and most of us don't get paid to do it. If we wanted more expensive we could go buy our bullets from Hornady right? Better to play with your situation till you get it the way you want it.

Note: my instructions say 375 to 390 F or 200 C for 8-10 minutes. For my situation 390 F for 10 minutes is a minimum if I want to maintain color and pass test. Sometimes a little more. Color gets darker after that. I can precisely control the time in minutes. But keeping those bullets exactly on 390 F is not possible in my set up. I believe Joe once said that the objective is to get the interior of the bullet to at least 180 C for 8 minutes to cure the coating. If I were in a lab (used to build labs and install equipment for a bunch of researchers) this might be measurable and easily maintained. But I have a $100 Hamilton Beach oven a Bayou Cajun turkey thermometer and a MYPIN TA PID.

I worked on construction jobs my whole life and found the supervisor that commanded both my respect and compliance did it without a single cuss word. I once told a policeman that (paraphrase) his cussing at me was not necessary and showed a lack of knowledge on how to talk to people. Needless to say it didn't get me out of the ticket because I was going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone.[smilie=2: I just called it the way I see it.:bigsmyl2:

While I'm disagreeing with Trevor might as well make it complete. Sawdust makes a better fluxing compound than bees wax. It leaves a protective coating across the melt when casting to keep from oxidizing the tin out of your alloy. I do use the wax for smelting for ingots. It burns off so I don't have as much to skim. The way I see it.:kidding:

[Ausglock]

All the sawdust around here ( Yes, I run a sawmill) is hardwood. No pine. So the sawdust is no good for fluxing as it has no resin in it.

YOUR oven is controlled to suit YOUR process.
That is the whole point.... eveyone has to find their own Sweet spot for their situation.

And, yes, you catch more flys with honey than vinegar, But sometimes you have to douse people with vinegar.

[popper]

skim off the scum off top of melt, and sell it or give it to scrap metal recyclers Not in the USA. CuSO4, PbSO4 give a nasty powder. Both are slightly toxic. Sulfur will harden the alloy and remove zinc but it stinks and burns pretty good. Never tried hitek on sulfur'd but it works fine with copper'd alloy.

[TonyN]

What's everyone high and low on there bluebird PID? To keep 200C?

[TonyN]

I have the bluebird PID on my oven and wondering what everyone puts tere alarms at? I know 200C for the high But what do you set the low alarm at?

[Ausglock]

Never heard of a bluebird PID. I use Rex C100.
have never needed to set a high or low alarm.
Google has nothing on Bluebird PID either..

[dikman]

Bluebird PID???
I've never bothered with alarms on my PIDs, whether melting lead or using the oven. Not needed, in my opinion.

[TonyN]

I figured they keep the temp to that desired temp. Sounds like it doesn't tho.

[TonyN]

Sorry guys I meant Inkbird C-100.
Are the alarms not needed? Would you guys mind telling me if you could so I'm on the same track and tell me what setting you use. I have mine at 1 on run so it runs in auto.

[TonyN]

These where with PID set at 200C for 13 min.
Both bronz and kryptonite where same time and temp. The bronz and kryptonite both passes wipe test with no wipe off. The bronz passes the smash test but nose down it has some flaking. The kryptonite failed very bad with flaking. I'm guessing it was cooking to long by the darkening of the kryptonite.

[TonyN]

also is the chipping from over cooking? I let set for drying for around 1 hour or so.

[Ausglock]

Baking too long will not cause flaking. Applying too thick or Not air drying long enough causes flaking.
Did you put the tray of bullets on top of the oven to warm up as the oven was getting to temperature??

[dikman]

Ok, Inkbird I can find. The alarm function can be used to trigger an external audible alarm, or light, when a preset temperature is reached - that's all it does, nothing else. Not needed for the normal running of a PID.

Tony, what sort of oven are you using - big/small, convection/non-convection, how many trays are you putting in and where are you putting them in the oven - top, middle or bottom?

[TonyN]

Yes I let air cool in the house for around 1 hour. And yes I let the bullets heat up on the oven while the oven was heating up. They get to where I touch them there to hot to touch.
I use a large cottage cheese bowl when I shake them with 5 lbs bullets. Could the bowl be to small and causing to much coating to be put on the bullets? I a 5 gallon bucket to big for 5 lbs each?

I have a small convection toaster oven. The tray is on the bottom setting. I have the PID set to where it's almost dead at 200C.
I have a 5 gallon bucket or if that's to big I could go to a hardware store and buy a smaller bucket like painters use.

[ioon44]

I use 5 quart ( 4.7 liter) ice cream buckets or you can get the same size at a hard ware store. A 5 gal bucket for me would be too big.

When hot air drying I have never went over 140 deg F ( 60 deg C) this temp is almost to hot to hold for very long, 30 min of this temp always works.
I have a surface thermometer so I can check my drying temp right on the bullets.

[TexasGrunt]

Quick question.

When baking do the boolits have to be on a screen or can I dump them onto a pan?

[Ausglock]

Screen is needed to allow air flow around the bullets as they bake.

The size of the container doesn't matter so long as you only use 6mls to 2.5Kg of bullets ( or a ratio of coating to bullets that is the same as this).

Just remember... Less is better.

[Avenger442]

Tony
186960If you look close you can see a small amount of flaking. If you could magnify it up to the size I have on my computer you would see a little cracking in the coating on the bullet and what I call dusty flakes on the paper towel. This is a hollow point that I cast for my 44 magnum. My usual three coats. The load was too stout for me so I only shot six. Dismantled the rest. These shot fine, except for the hot load, with no leading. I don't think a little flaking has ever been something I wouldn't load and try. I understand that this coating is probably too thick. And the less is more thing.

I got to say that when I first started doing Hi Tek I tried to do everything as perfect as I could because I didn't know the limits of it's forgiveness. Now that I have been doing it a while I've shot bullets I probably would not have shot in the beginning and pushed that forgiveness thing some. We start out using the letter of the law, instructions, but we learn where we really can go as we take the trip.

The Bronze 500 you are showing me looks just like the ones I have done. If this is the first coat it may still need a little more acetone in the coating to thin it out. The smash test looks OK to me. And Trevor is right over cooking ruins nothing but the color. And your color looks OK.

Trevor
Have you ever gotten flakes on a smash test? Just asking your opinion. Is the limit that leaves lead in the barrel where you get big flakes down to the lead?

[Ausglock]

Some of the test coating failed the smash test by only a little. some by a lot.
Most still shot fine in 9mm 38super and 45ACP.

[TonyN]

Ok these are kryptonite green.

My PID is at 200 and there 10 min. They pass the wipe test but fail exstreamly bad on the smash test. I let them dry for 30 min. I'm a room temp where I'm almost starting to sweat. The kryptonite green seems to be a thinner coating. Maybe it's the color? Compared to the bronz? I feel as they need a 3rd coat.

[TonyN]

Light seems to make them brighter color then they are to me. They seem like more of a frog green if that makes sense. Darker than the coating when applied.

[dikman]

Tony, have you tried the middle tray setting in the oven? I know you have a convection oven, but sometimes you need to try all possibilities.

[Ausglock]

Colour looks about right. Look back a few pages at the ones I posted from coating Marky123's bullets.
Question. How old is your acetone?
Is it sealed when no in use?

[TonyN]

The acetone is a week old. Yes I make sure it's sealed when not in use. So they might shoot ok if they pass the wipe test even if they fail the smash test?

[ioon44]

I have shot bullets that didn't pass the smash test with out any leading, the proper barrel fit and barrel quality has a lot to do with the end results.
I have never tried to shoot bullets that didn't pass the wipe test.

I had to shorten my baking time from 12 min to 11 min to get the kryptonite green color right.

[TonyN]

3RD coat with wipe test passing as shown behind this bullet. But flaking was terrible.

[Ausglock]

Flaking can only be caused by a few things.
1. too much coating used per coat.
2. Fail to ensure that the coating and alloy under the coating is "dry" and at or above room temperature prior to baking.
3. moisture contaminated acetone. remember.... it has to be pure acetone. not thinners etc etc.. The correct stuff has a UN 1090.
MEK is UN 1193.
4. contaminated alloy with zinc and cadmium.

TonyN
load some and try them... Suck it and see...as they say..

[TonyN]

Wondering when you say 10 min. Bake time is that right after your PID hits 200C then you start time once the heat gets back up once the bullets are put in or is that total time as soon as you put bullets in that's the total?

[HI-TEK]

Wondering when you say 10 min. Bake time is that right after your PID hits 200C then you start time once the heat gets back up once the bullets are put in or is that total time as soon as you put bullets in that's the total?

Tony N,
You are reading much too much into your heating and temperature control.
The heat produced inside your oven, is required to raise alloy load to about 180C, and maintain it there for at least 90 seconds, once alloy has reached the 180C. That is it.
How long that takes is directly dependent on your oven.
I have stated previously, it is not the temperature of air in oven most important, but is your alloy temperature.
For correct baking/bonding, you need to get alloy to 180C, minimum. The length of time it takes your load to get to 180C+, will depend on load size, heating capacity of your oven, (insulation), air circulation.
Running at 200C, simply aids the push of heat transfer rates into your load in oven to get to the magic 180C.
What you have seemed to ignore/miss is, that heat can be most efficiently transferred, by having very good air circulation inside your oven.
If you have no fan inside your oven, results and times of baking can vary greatly.
Heat recovery, after load is placed into your oven, totally depends on load size, adequate heating element output capacity, and good air circulation inside oven.

There is no problem with a temperature drop inside your oven, for a specific load, as long as your temperatures inside oven can get product to at least 180C.
What you will have to determine, just how long the time is taken to get product to temperature, and hold it there at minimum of 180C.

You keep on focusing on flaking. Many on this forum, has advised you, that flaking or smash test failure with first coat, is mainly due to use of too much coating and not enough drying before cooking, or both. (Sometimes, the moisture is introduced from poor quality Acetone, not correctly stored)
Flaking is NOT caused by using 200C for 10, 12 or more minutes.
Correctly dried coatings pass all tests, after 3 months of cooking at 200C, but coating are now black..
Please eliminate your thoughts about heat causing flaking.

Heating simply exposes your inadequate processing prior to baking, which results in flaking.

Heat causes flaking when moisture is trapped in the coating and there is over use of coating, or both..
Again, I repeat some rough details on moisture.
1. from room temperature to 100C, moisture expands 1000 times original volume.
2. At 200C, that expansion is possibly closer to 2000 times original volume of available moisture..

Skin formation, (especially with use of thick coats) traps moisture below surface of coating. You don't need much moisture to cause problems.
The instant this moisture is exposed to heat, it forms steam.
This steam vapour that is generated, lifts coating from alloy. This allows coating to bake/cure, but you have no or poor adhesion. Simple as that.
Heat is relevant, but is not the cause of your failures.

[Ausglock]

Wondering when you say 10 min. Bake time is that right after your PID hits 200C then you start time once the heat gets back up once the bullets are put in or is that total time as soon as you put bullets in that's the total?

In plain English (Australian)
1. turn oven on.
2. place tray of bullets ON TOP of Spacers on top of oven (outside oven, not inside oven)
3. When oven reaches 200 Deg C, insert said tray of pre-warmed bullets from on top of oven into oven.
4. Start timing from now.
5. Place NEXT tray of bullets on top of oven to pre-warm.
6. At 1/2 way time mark, open oven and shake tray of bullets. (maybe 2 to 3 seconds)
7. close oven and let the timer run til the end.
8. Remove baked tray and insert next tray from on top of oven.
repeat
repeat
repeat

[TonyN]

I know I'm sorry for this repeat of questions. I'm just over loaded with this and how it's going. Of been trying 3 coats as some of the bullets barely have coating so it's taking 3 coats to totally cover bullets. Almost all pass on the wipe test and the smash test is hit and miss. The kryptonite green flakes really bad and the bronz isn't near as bad. Would going 1ML less on first coat be better? 5 ML instead of 6?
I'm using acetone from Wal-Mart

[TonyN]

Also I have been putting the tray of bullets from the top of the oven into the oven and the bullets get so hot it almost burns my fingers and the bullets are then sticky from being so hot. Is this ok? As you said as soon as you put the bullets in the oven put another tray of bullets on top of the oven to start warming them.

[Ausglock]

Tony.....Mate...
How about posting some photos of what you have and what you are doing??

[popper]

contaminated alloy with zinc and cadmium Interesting. How about copper, arsenic and sulfur, grain refiners? I think I understand the zinc problem but cadmium is normally a grain refiner and we shouldn't have much as it is toxic.
bullets get so hot it almost burns my fingers baking them on top of the oven - too hot?

[TonyN]

Tony.....Mate...
How about posting some photos of what you have and what you are doing??

You said once you take bullets put in oven put another tray on top to heat up. I have done that for about 10 min if that and they are hot to where I can't handle them and they start to get sticky.

Would going 1ML less be ok for for first coat so there is a thinner coat?

[HI-TEK]

I know I'm sorry for this repeat of questions. I'm just over loaded with this and how it's going. Of been trying 3 coats as some of the bullets barely have coating so it's taking 3 coats to totally cover bullets. Almost all pass on the wipe test and the smash test is hit and miss. The kryptonite green flakes really bad and the bronz isn't near as bad. Would going 1ML less on first coat be better? 5 ML instead of 6?
I'm using acetone from Wal-Mart

Tony N,
1. Do only one coat. Dry well. (DO NOT MULTIPLE COAT, UNTIL YOU GET CORRECT RESULTS WITH FIRST COAT)

(When placing tray on top of oven, use a separator such as Aluminium Egg rings, so hot air can rise from oven through tray, but there is no direct heat transfer taking place)
If your tray on oven is too hot to touch, and coating is sticky, you have already started crosslinking process. THIS IS NO GOOD.

When you think that tray on top of oven has dried, then bake only a few (test samples) out of this tray. DO NOT PUT IN THE WHOLE TRAY TO BAKE.

Do smash test on first coat after baking. It has to pass before you coat again. If it fails, do not re-coat, it is a waste of time and cannot be fixed.

Only bake the rest, if first test sample passes test after bake.
If test samples do not pass after bake, it was not ready to bake in the first place.

2. DO NOT TRY TO FIX IT BY RECOATING.... IT WILL NOT WORK AND FLAKING WILL BE MORE PRONOUNCED.
Find out first, why test sample failed.

[Ausglock]

Spacers on top of oven.
187231

tray on spacers on top of oven.
187232

Other oven.
187233

My bad for assuming people wouldn't put the actual tray directly on the oven top......

[Frank38]

I have approximately 1500 105gr swaged bullets .357. They are SWCFB with no lube grooves. After ploughing through this thread it doesn't look good. They are about 15 year old and the lube has dried out and is falling of in places. As they are swaged and to the best of my knowledge they have never been through a sizer. Question is if I clean all the lube off that is left will I be able to Hi-Tek coat them. I did clean some up (petrol wash, Mineral turps wash and then rinsed with Metho). I sprayed them with etch primer and it stuck, (finger nail scrape) As an after thought I should tell you that they left lead from the forcing cone to the muzzle. (I did load and fire 10 in my Ruger 357.

[Gremlin460]

I would not trust it Frank, although you may "Seem" to get all lube off them I seriously doubt you will.
Best to add to pot and make new fresh one you know will be fine.
I have 3500 grease lubed ones here 2000+ old ones , so old the lead has gone dark grey, 1000+ nice shiney but loobed 38s.
All given to me by a shooter who left the sport. ALL of these will revisit the pot before I use them in my gun.
Its not worth the risk, the hearache of cleaning out lead, and the ruined day to use them as is.

But thats what I am going to do... you make up your own mind.

[Ausglock]

Frank.
Old mate in South Africa washes his bullets in a caustic solution......I think....

Might be worth a try after boiling the hell out of them...

[Frank38]

I would not trust it Frank, although you may "Seem" to get all lube off them I seriously doubt you will.
Best to add to pot and make new fresh one you know will be fine.
I have 3500 grease lubed ones here 2000+ old ones , so old the lead has gone dark grey, 1000+ nice shiney but loobed 38s.
All given to me by a shooter who left the sport. ALL of these will revisit the pot before I use them in my gun.
Its not worth the risk, the hearache of cleaning out lead, and the ruined day to use them as is.

But thats what I am going to do... you make up your own mind.

Grem I have only one problem, I have never casted a bullet in my life. You reckon nom is the time to start?:groner:

[Frank38]

I do have some caustic soda. I will give it a try. I usually use it for killing Cane Toads.

[ioon44]

TonyN
If your bullets you are drying are so hot that the coating is getting sticky then I guess this too hot. When I dry with heat I keep the temperature 140 deg F to 100 deg F for 30 min or if on a warm day placing them in full sun shine the temperature will hit around 130 deg F.

Get a surface thermometer and see what the actual temp is.

[TonyN]

Sorry I assumed that you put the tray directly on the oven lol. So this by putting on oven is to get the moisture competly put of the coating?

[TonyN]

My oven that flips up not your normal oven. I could put bullets in front of my heater that I use here in the winter. I start to sweat sometimes if I keep it on. I could put them in front of the heater. What do you think would be a good distance ? I would have to experiment with this. I think there would be a very light white powder on the bullets. I can tell for sure but I'm thinking there might be. My spru plate gets a white color on it as I can wipe it off Some.

[TonyN]

First coat 5lbs with 4 ML coating. 12 min. At 200C. Looks like it passed smash test. Passed wipe test. I'll add 5 ML on second coating.

[TonyN]

2Nd coat.

5 ML 5 lbs. 12 min. Baking.
No wipe off and to me it looks like there over baked. First coat was 12 min. So I tried 12 on 2nd coat. Is this chipping or flaking to you guys? To me it looks ok but I'm no pro lol.

[TonyN]

Seems like less coating in the lube grooves then other times.

[Ausglock]

Looks OK to me.
Instead of using the propane heater, how about using the oil heater in the photo behind it?

Just sit the tray of bullets on to of it.
if you have coating in the grooves, you are using too much.

[TonyN]

I think I always have line in the grooves. I used 1 ML less in the first coating.
If there is a very thin white powder residue what is that from? I have it on my spru plate and I believe I might have a very thin layer on the bullets.

[Ausglock]

No idea what the white powder is. Post a photo.
If you have white powder on the bullets before coating, wash them in acetone first to see if the powder comes off.
Also... Be aware that acetone will ignite. I'd be very careful with naked flame from a propane burner...

[HI-TEK]

I think I always have line in the grooves. I used 1 ML less in the first coating.
If there is a very thin white powder residue what is that from? I have it on my spru plate and I believe I might have a very thin layer on the bullets.

I have a suspicion, that it is metal oxide. I think it may be Zinc Oxide, as it is a white powder. Your wheel weights/scrap Lead, may have Zinc metal in it. If that is the case, it will also explain the peculiar results you are getting. Zinc is a very reactive metal and will oxidise rapidly with heat used in your alloy melt. The Oxide will end up on surfaces as it is very light and fluffy.
You can pre-treat melt to remove Zinc, (if it is not grossly contaminated with Zinc), using Cupper Sulphate. Simply melt your alloy, and add 2-3 tablespoons of Copper Sulphate, stir well (CAREFULLY).
There will be a colour change, where Zinc will displace the Copper from its salt. Then, remove/skim off powder, and again add same amount of Copper Sulphate and stir well, (CAREFULLLY).
Have a look at scum that is formed on surface. It should change colour again. Repeat this until you get a different colour residue on molten metal surface. That is it.
Re cast from this treated alloy, and see if you get better results.
This process, removes "active" metals, and introduces Copper Metal into alloy.
This will also help increase hardness.

[marky123]

187353Howdy
this is the result of 10 rounds of cast range lead
187354And this 10 rounds of COWW.
I'm going to bake them again and water drop.Dont know the BHN yet.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Joe, I am sending him a few lbs of bullets cast from commercial alloy to see if we can find the reason for his failures.

[Ausglock]

187353Howdy
this is the result of 10 rounds of cast range lead
187354And this 10 rounds of COWW.
I'm going to bake them again and water drop.Dont know the BHN yet.
What Dia are you sizing them?
Most G17 G34 around here like .357" Dia

[marky123]

.358 for the 17

[TonyN]

My grooves look the same way as in this pic with my 1911.
So please explain where I get this at to clean the sink out of its the problem.

[TonyN]

I think there is a little white powder film on the bullets. Its very very thin if there is. I rub the bullet But it's like is there or isn't. Weird sounding but it's very thin if there is. Would cleaning with acetone be ok for each batch before coating? Could I use this copper sulfate in each pot so I don't have to remelt again? Is this something I can buy local like at a hardware store?

[HI-TEK]

I think there is a little white powder film on the bullets. Its very very thin if there is. I rub the bullet But it's like is there or isn't. Weird sounding but it's very thin if there is. Would cleaning with acetone be ok for each batch before coating? Could I use this copper sulfate in each pot so I don't have to remelt again? Is this something I can buy local like at a hardware store?

TonyN,
I do have reservations that solvent will clean white powder off alloy completely if it is a Zinc oxidation product.. If you have metal contamination in your alloy mix, it is throughout all cast alloy.
Powder will form with air exposure of alloy simply by storage as an oxidation process with the reactive metals in alloy.
I made fishing sinkers from scrap Lead, Left it outside on a shelf In about 3 months, a thick crust of white stuff grew on the surface of the alloy I cast. I was able to simply wire brush it off the Lead.
This did not happen with Lead roof sheeting as I used for same application when they were in same place side by side.
Copper Sulphate is available in most farming supply stores, as it is used as fungicide spray.
If you treat one batch, and it works, even if you use an excess Copper Sulphate, then you will know results after you cast, and determine if white powder re-appears after treatment.
After that, decide if you were able to get better results or not. That way, you can also determine if such pre-treatments are warranted or not.

[TonyN]

Is there a certain name of the sulfate? There is powder sprays and solid form. When a bullet is still in the mold I notice there is a white hais . I figured it is from being hot but maybe it isn't. My spru plate gets a white film on it as I can take a steel pad to it and I wipes off.
Can I put sulfate right in the pot every time I add lead when casting? Would acetone take it off if I was them in it? Or even water Quench so it cleans the powder off?
Please give detail so I buy and do the proper instructions. Would range lead so the same thing with film as WW?
Is copper sulfate bad when I mix with lead?

[HI-TEK]

Is there a certain name of the sulfate?
It is available as Anhydrous powder, also named Bluestone, crystals, (light Blue colour) most available type. You do not want any preparations that contain mixture of ingredients. You need only Copper Sulphate.

There is powder sprays and solid form.
Copper Sulphate is Crystals, or clumps of blue rough granules.

When a bullet is still in the mold I notice there is a white hais .
I don't understand this


I figured it is from being hot but maybe it isn't.
Heat will accelerate oxidation process so more white powder will form when alloy is hot.

My spru plate gets a white film on it as I can take a steel pad to it and I wipes off.
If it is a Zinc Oxide or similar, the powder wont hurt parts

Can I put sulfate right in the pot every time I add lead when casting?
As I suggested, try one batch to see effects first. Then decide if results are good or no good.

Would acetone take it off if I was them in it? Or even water Quench so it cleans the powder off?
If it is Zinc Oxide, solvents will not effectively remove it. Even if it removed, more will form.

Please give detail so I buy and do the proper instructions. Would range lead so the same thing with film as WW?
If shooters had used scrap Lead contaminated with other unwanted metals, it is possible you may get similar results.

Is copper sulfate bad when I mix with lead?
There should be no real volatiles that can be considered bad. Copper Sulphate (Bluestone) has water of crystallisation in it. That water should quickly vaporise with Lead heat. That is why I suggested careful addition and stirring. The contained moisture also will help to remove/react with unwanted metals from alloy.

[TonyN]

there is a local co-op store that sells lawn and farm supplies in town. So if it in chunk form it will be ok? If I add it to my 20 lb master caster pot how much do you recommend? This won't blow up will it since its water based? I just want a guide line to know so I don't mess up and give this a correct way. Should I add this before fluxing?

[Avenger442]

Tony
Go down to your local "Big Box" hardware Ace, Lowes, Home Depot or the COOP you mentioned and ask them for some root killer. What Joe mentioned is the same stuff I understand. Look on the side and it will say Copper Sulfate, mine is medium blue crystals, I believe the correct chemistry designation is CuSo4. You add two tablespoons to your pot stir it in, I understand there will be some crackling going on at this point but no lead thrown out of the pot. As you stir it in, the copper molecules replace the zinc molecules in the melt. The zinc with the sulfur collects as a grey to dark grey powder on top of the melt. You remove this and start at step 1 again add two table spoons stir in..... You do this until the powder collecting on top turns from grey to white. At that point the copper has replaced all of the zinc. My understanding of the process.

People here on the forum have been discussing this for about four years off and on. Even adding zinc to their alloy to have the copper replace it. Their desire was to produce a tougher bullet that would still be malleable. They have been doing it two ways but the copper sulfate seems to be the simplest. Popper has done quite a bit of discussion about it with several guys here on the forum.

I have just recently discovered this and have put together what I need to do it. Haven't got around to actually doing it yet. So what I'm telling you was gleaned from reading post and discussion with members in PMs. Popper suggest you wear a dust mask because of the dusty nature of the dross coming off the top of the melt. I understand it stinks. So you probably want to do it outside or with some real good ventilation. The wife has an atomic nose so I'm going to do outside. The copper sulfate is easily found in any hardware store

[TonyN]

So this will clean the lead up nicely? Iv never heard of this before. I always thought if Zink gets in its ruined.

[Ausglock]

Tony...Honestly.
Why go through all this just to use some mystery metal??

Just get rid of it and start with clean alloy.
I had about 50Kg of Mystery metal. it was chunky when in the melt pot.
I gave it away to a fishing sinker maker. didn't want the agravation of it.

[TonyN]

Isn't clean allow expensive? I would like to hear from someone who has used this before wasting money on it. Mine isn't chunky. Its has a grayish white tint to it. I cook it on a slow burn when melting it

[TonyN]

I'll get pictures but my stick on pure WW are a shinny mirror color and my WW ingots are a gray dull color.

[Avenger442]

This is a hobby for me. I'm a tinkerer. I like dissecting it taking it apart cleaning it fixing it and putting it all back together. I like the idea of playing with something until I get it to my definition of right and repeatable. Sometimes I'll get bored with it and leave it for a while. Got two old cars in the basement that will attest to that. I like the idea of knowing how to do something and achieving it with as little impact to my pocket as I can. Hopefully, with items I have on hand. That's actually why I started using Hi Tek. I saw an opportunity to lube my bullets that was economical didn't require the purchase of a $200 piece of equipment with another $200 in dies and then I would buy the wax-grease lube. At the time it even seemed to be cleaner and easier. I'll never know I never spent the $400 on the equipment and dies. But it made sense to me. Instead I started with a yard sale convection oven some scrap items and bought the coating. Shot a whole lot of Hi Tek bullets out of that oven before the door broke on it and still have some of that first Gold 1035 liquid. This stuff goes a long long way (thanks Joe). My alloys are probably like most guys doing this as a hobby. We scrounge whatever we can get. Something else I like doing. I cast some bullets just the other day with an unknown mix of scrap alloy I had. I'll test BHN on these and if they are where I want them for what I will use them for I'll coat them, loadem and shootem. If it leads my barrel I'll clean it up and try something else. Sometimes, we scrounge or do the wrong thing and pay for it (learning the hard way). I can't even count the number of stories I have read on this forum alone where that has happened. There are quite a few post on contaminated alloy and how to fix it. The forum has helped me avoid some of the pitfalls (thanks Trevor and you other Guys).

I suppose if I were in the business of doing this I would order alloy direct from Roto Metals or some certified supplier for $2 a pound maybe less if in bulk instead of $.40 a pound for wheel weights. Purchase a cement mixer to tumble in instead of a Cool Whip bowl. Buy a commercial convection oven or build one more suited to my purpose instead of a $99 oven. I've always thought conveyor might be a good idea. Control all phases of the coating operation as finitely as possible instead of SWAGing some of it. Get the colors just right instead of accepting some different shades. Then defray that cost with the consumer. Please understand I'm not knocking this model. I think it smacks of good old entrepreneurial spirit. Something any true American loves. It's one of the things helped build this nation. It's just that I learned sometime ago that the stresses of running a hobby as a business takes some of the fun out of it. And I want to do this just for fun.

So I plod on the eternal tinkerer and scrounger. I know I'm not always right in the way I do it. My Dad used to say that I like to learn things the hard way and always had too many irons in the fire. Please excuse my sappy on and on tone but I really like this stuff. It's where the fun is for me. And if I can help someone else have fun with it I like it even more.

[dikman]

You sure we're nor related, Avenger? You just gave a reasonably accurate description of me doing things! (Without the cars in the basement).:lol:

Tony, I'd be highly suspicious of those stick-on WW you've got. The last lot I had I was sure they were lead, but when I looked at them real close the surface texture and colour looked a bit odd. I eventually found some had a code stamped on them and Zn appeared as part of it, turned out most of them were zinc (so I melted them into a block, just 'cos I could). I now stick to (pistol) range scrap, along with some collected from our Black Powder range, and occasionally buy pure lead from the scrap yard.

As Ausglock said, I'd stop using that stuff you've got and start again. The fact that you're getting white deposits of some sort indicates, to me, that it's highly likely it's contaminated. They might be ok if you use a conventional wax-type lube and shoot them, but it sounds to me like you're wasting a lot of time, effort and materials trying to coat them. Lots of newcomers have had initial problems when starting with Hi-Tek coating but they are usually resolved pretty quick, as once the basics are understood it's pretty easy to use. No-one has had the amount of trouble you're having. You seem very close to getting it right, but you really need some boolits from a different source to confirm things.

[HI-TEK]

I'll get pictures but my stick on pure WW are a shinny mirror color and my WW ingots are a gray dull color.

Tony,
Do this outside with good air flow. Use glasses and rubber gloves, don't splash/spill this liquid. USE CARE to prevent getting it onto yourself. Have hose with water available nearby.
If you are a messy with handling this, have nearby, a bucket of water 5-6 liters, that has in it about 1 pound of Bicarbonate of Soda. This is an acid neutraliser. Works immediately to neutralise acid spillages.
To save you lots of pain and time and costs, you can carry out simple test to determine if any alloy you have is Lead or Zinc.
Use a Plastic container like a Tupperware type round or square, and pour into it some Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic Acid or Sprits of Salt other names for it). You can buy bottles at most hardware stores. Cheap as. You can dilute acid one to one with water so you have more test liquid to immerse alloy into.
Then carefully without splashing, place your suspect alloy into this liquid .
If it is Zinc, or Zinc/Allume, it will start fizzing quite quickly.
If it is Lead, no reaction should take place.
If test sample starts fizzing, simply remove with a plastic spoon or similar, (do not use metal spoon or utensil) and test next one. It is laborious a bit, but it will save time in the long term and you can keep Lead separated from contaminants.
If you have a lot of suspect alloy to test, use a plastic strainer like large tea strainer, (ALL PLASTIC) and pre sort alloy first, and then put in some suspect alloy into strainer, and lower it into acid. You will see reasonably quickly any reaction taking place.
The ones that react with Acid will become shiny as acid works on metal, and residual acid on removed metal, will continue to react after you remove it from acid. Others that are not Zinc should stay dull oxidised surface.
Generally, you can tell or guess which one will be Zinc by colour differences. Zinc rich alloy is more silvery, Lead alloys are more Grey.

[marky123]

Are you able to say that HT won't work with zinc contaminated lead at all?

[Ausglock]

Are you able to say that HT won't work with zinc contaminated lead at all?

Pretty much.
More trouble than its worth

[HI-TEK]

Are you able to say that HT won't work with zinc contaminated lead at all?


Good question.
Well, all I can say is, how do you measure a piece of string without a measuring tape?
I have no correlation or feedback from any source, that can identify when Hi-Tek will or wont work with various levels of Zinc contaminated alloy.
Commercial casters, rarely use unknown alloys, as variability with all sorts of results, cannot justify loss of customer satisfaction due to failures.
The use of recycled alloys seems to have been mostly adopted by hobbyists folk in the US.
What I can say is, that many have used all sorts of recycled metals. Success was mostly OK by people who are fussy with what they use.
With failures, and with limited feedback, it is not obvious at beginning, to identify why coating failed.
The use of poor quality or incorrect alloy seems never disclosed in the beginning.
After some investigations, which eventually emerge, just at the point my ripping out my last strands of hair, it is discovered that coating failures were attributable to high Zinc levels in alloy, or were nearly pure Zinc.
Zinc, Aluminium, Magnesium, are all very reactive metals that form Oxides quickly and especially when hot. This oxidation, prevents good adhesion bonding to metal below surface oxidation.
These metals, are also suspected of reacting unpredictably with the coating, resulting in incorrect results.
In short, I try to advise users to use correct alloy for end use application, and mostly, the advice is taken on board. Some try to experiment, and get failures.
However, if we don't experiment, we will not know outcome. That is progress.
Apology for long winded reply, but hope I covered your question.

[TonyN]

I believe it's zink in the lead more and more. I washed these bullets pre coating and baked 11 minutes as I think 10 min wasn't enough. I had a lot better outcome. When I rubbed them I had zero rub off as before I did. The smash test worked also but has some flake but not all did. I let dry for 15 min. Or so under a box fan in room temp.
I was told sulfur also is great to remove zink from lead. I'm going to buy some since its cheaper and put ingots and bullets that I have to remelt and to this new trial.
Anyone else know if sulfur will take zink and other junk out?

[TonyN]

So I take it that range lead does for sure work correctly with Hi-Tek? I'm.really thinking about buying range lead from now on.

[marky123]

Have you shot those bullets Tony?

[TonyN]

Have you shot those bullets Tony?

No I haven't. Iv been busy and need to get primers.

[Avenger442]

Tony
Do a search on this forum about using the sulfur to remove zinc. I seem to remember reading on this forum about that procedure, too. Again, you probably want to do it outside as I can't imagine a situation where you would burn sulfur without stink.

Keep at it. It will sort out.

Joe
Thanks for the tip about the acid dip. My chemistry classes are gradually coming back to me.

[TonyN]

I take it range lead is ok to use to hitek with? I'm really thinking about selling my WW and buying range lead.

[Avenger442]

Tony
How much you want for the WW lead? Would have to ask you a couple more questions about the lead but I might consider buying it if you sell it. PM me.

With range lead the question is how hard all of those bullets melted down are. The two batches of range lead I melted down produced 9-10 BHN lead. You will might need to add some tin, lino type or mono type lead to it. I start with ingots from clip on wheel weights in most of my alloy it's about 12-13 BHN. It's not the idea of whether COWW or stick on WW or range lead or stuff from certified supplier will be successful in coating. All if not contaminated or of the wrong hardness for the pressure you will be using them for in your guns can be successfully coated and fired. I have successfully coated and fire through my guns all of them except the certified lead.

[dikman]

Tony, as I said before my range scrap is from my local pistol range, they do not shoot jacketed and all that I've recovered has been coated, commercial bullets. There is a very small amount of .22 mixed in, and the occasional black powder ball. It has tested to 12-15 BHN. If the range scrap you buy is from a pistol range then you should be pretty safe using it with Hi-Tek. The hardness, of course, may vary but logically if it's all pistol stuff then it should be fine to re-use for pistol rounds.

If you're uncertain, buy a small amount to try first.

[Avenger442]

Mine was from outdoor pistol ranges. It was jacketed and Cowboy Action rounds that were mostly lead alloy. Probably 75% of it was from cores out of the jacketed bullets. I don't have an indoor range near me. I understand it is a bit easier to get it. I had to go through the dirt banks after a rain to collect mine. For me, it's just easier to pay 40 cents a pound for clip on wheel weights. They let me sort through them so I get all the lead weights. I end up with a BHN which works in all my pistols and some rifle loads with the Hi Tek.

I went by the scrap yard Saturday and they had shipped all the lead out Thursday. If I understood him right, about 12,000 pounds of it. Of course that is a mixed bag in the wheel weights of mostly steel and zinc plus a lot of roofing and plumbing lead. And my personal favorite the lead out of sheet rock from X-Ray rooms. Man that stuff stinks when you melt it worse than the stick on wheel weights.

[TonyN]

My local scrap yard has range lead from a indoor range just couple minutes from there and they are selling it for .30 lb. I know 2 guys that coat hi-tek with Range lead and like it. I can quench them aftee 2nd coating and get some more BHN from it for sure. My ingots from my WW are a whitish gray color as Stick on WW and Range lead is a bright lead clean color.

[marky123]

187512Don't trust cheap digital thermometers