simple Hi-Tek coating

[666damosydney]

Damo. Go to ALDI and buy the 6 pack of Apple juice in the pop top 250ml bottles. These are what I use for mixing and applying the coating.

I don't measure when coating, Just use a 1 second dribble (been doing this for too long).

Thanks Trev i picked up some of those bottles redid a full batch give it a good shake with a boolit in there will let it fester tonight and try again tomorrow with a new batch ill reshake it before i use it.

[OS OK]

LEADMAN You might be interested with what I did to keep my fingers clear of the punch, got 40 seconds to spare…then take a look.
Lee bullet sizer modifications (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iHUDbC9hQk)

[Tom_Highway]

It's a great idea. [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]
Thank you!. [emoji4][emoji106]

[popper]

I know some of you have said you can't get it to work ... That's getting close to max load and well over 2000 fps. I'm deer hunting with it this year. I don't think it's the HiTek. I can't shoot 12 BHN in my 308 approaching the max load WDWW(kinda) @ 2700 fps 170gr in 308W does good with HF PC, not so good with HiTek gold. Didn't say it wouldn't work, just not as well or easy as PC. Yes, I did chrony the loads.

[Ausglock]

LEADMAN You might be interested with what I did to keep my fingers clear of the punch, got 40 seconds to spare…then take a look.
Lee bullet sizer modifications (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iHUDbC9hQk)

Outstanding.
As they say. 10 people look at the same problem, 10 people come up with 10 answers, All different.

[dikman]

A convection oven question for you chaps - I've been looking for a (cheap) used convection oven and so far all I've found are the round thingies, which I've been told not to use, and microwave convection ovens which are pretty cheap 'cos I'm guessing no-one wants them!

Anyone used a microwave convection oven for boolit baking (NOT on microwave, obviously). My main concern is that because of the electronics in them it won't be possible to use a PID to give accurate control of the temp and I will have to rely on the internal temp sensor. On the plus side it will have a built-in timer.

[Ausglock]

Have a look at homeart, copperart or even Ebay. there are plenty of ovens available.
Breville make a couple.

[Avenger442]

WDWW(kinda) @ 2700 fps 170gr in 308W does good with HF PC, not so good with HiTek gold. Didn't say it wouldn't work, just not as well or easy as PC. Yes, I did chrony the loads.


Popper
I keep saying I'm going to try the PC, too. Just haven't got to it yet. I know this question is off subject but is the HF PC the best to start with? Don't mean to side track the tread. I just don't seem to have as much time lately to read through stuff.

[slide]

OS OK, those two ideas of yours are brilliant!

[dikman]

Thanks Trev, but according to the 'net Homeart is closing down (or has closed, there's none nearby to check), Copperart may be the same and so far ebay hasn't come up with anything that I consider affordable (I'm NOT paying $120 +for an oven just to bake boolits in). Shops are no better. Used microwave convections start from around $25, so I'm thinking at that price I could modify it heavily - remove/disable the microwave parts and electronic controllers and rewire it so that just the fan and heater element work (the element via a PID). Simple enough to do, and that way I would have a cheap, simple, bullet-proof (pardon the pun) baking oven.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Trev, but according to the 'net Homeart is closing down (or has closed, there's none nearby to check), Copperart may be the same and so far ebay hasn't come up with anything that I consider affordable (I'm NOT paying $120 +for an oven just to bake boolits in). Shops are no better. Used microwave convections start from around $25, so I'm thinking at that price I could modify it heavily - remove/disable the microwave parts and electronic controllers and rewire it so that just the fan and heater element work (the element via a PID). Simple enough to do, and that way I would have a cheap, simple, bullet-proof (pardon the pun) baking oven.

Even simpler.
Go and have a look at retailers, metal recyclers, who may have trade ins or dumped free standing household stoves with ovens. Most have fan forced ovens. You will get them for nothing, and simply hook it up and use.
I know many who picked up old stoves from roadside during council clean up, and use them for baking the coatings.

[andre3k]

Even simpler.
Go and have a look at retailers, metal recyclers, who may have trade ins or dumped free standing household stoves with ovens. Most have fan forced ovens. You will get them for nothing, and simply hook it up and use.
I know many who picked up old stoves from roadside during council clean up, and use them for baking the coatings.

Best choice. I had two of the more expensive toaster oven on the market and used them for baking my bullets and both had temperature stability issues. They have zero insulation and no gasket around the door. I wasn't getting good results with them at all. Found a $30 household convection oven on craigslist that has digital controls and my issues went away. Gasketed door and actual insulation in the oven makes a huge difference. I'm looking for a second one now.

[Gremlin460]

Thanks Trev, but according to the 'net Homeart is closing down (or has closed, there's none nearby to check), Copperart may be the same and so far ebay hasn't come up with anything that I consider affordable (I'm NOT paying $120 +for an oven just to bake boolits in). Shops are no better. Used microwave convections start from around $25, so I'm thinking at that price I could modify it heavily - remove/disable the microwave parts and electronic controllers and rewire it so that just the fan and heater element work (the element via a PID). Simple enough to do, and that way I would have a cheap, simple, bullet-proof (pardon the pun) baking oven.

Curb collection is your friend, get several for free, or for the $20 you tip the collection guys to tell you when they find one... Mine was a $50 ebay unit near new.

[Gremlin460]

Best choice. I had two of the more expensive toaster oven on the market and used them for baking my bullets and both had temperature stability issues. They have zero insulation and no gasket around the door. I wasn't getting good results with them at all. Found a $30 household convection oven on craigslist that has digital controls and my issues went away. Gasketed door and actual insulation in the oven makes a huge difference. I'm looking for a second one now.

Don't forget your Clay bricks in the bottom and if it has a grill section, most house ones do, rip the element out and fit in the main oven AS WELL... :)

[dikman]

I had already thought of a "proper" oven, but they're too big - not necessary for the quantity I'll likely be doing and require too much space. As with most things, however, discussing it brings up all sorts of options. Anyway, there's no hurry, as I'm still waiting for my coatings (I wanted Gunmetal and Joe said I'll have to wait until another batch is made).

[HI-TEK]

I had already thought of a "proper" oven, but they're too big - not necessary for the quantity I'll likely be doing and require too much space. As with most things, however, discussing it brings up all sorts of options. Anyway, there's no hurry, as I'm still waiting for my coatings (I wanted Gunmetal and Joe said I'll have to wait until another batch is made).

It is made, and I have some left.
How many tonnes do you need???? LOL LOL

[OS OK]

OS OK, those two ideas of yours are brilliant!

Thanks Slide!

[dikman]

It is made, and I have some left.
How many tonnes do you need???? LOL LOL

:shock: Just the bit I've ordered will do fine (for now), thanks Joe :drinks:. (I'm already running out of room........).

[dikman]

The delivery guy just dropped off a nice little parcel - thanks Joe :bigsmyl2:.

Now just have to organise an oven of some sort and start casting some boolits, as all my existing ones have a wax lube on them :sad:.

[HI-TEK]

The delivery guy just dropped off a nice little parcel - thanks Joe :bigsmyl2:.

Now just have to organise an oven of some sort and start casting some boolits, as all my existing ones have a wax lube on them :sad:.

Great news.
Dont try to recycle any casts that has wax or other lubes on it. It just wont work and you will end up with using coating that wont stick.
The parcel posts seem to be running a bit slow, as it was sent about a week ago, and normally 2-3 days, it is there. May be deliveries are slower, because of many parcels Christmas deliveries.
I was talking to my freight company, and they are booked solid, working 12 hour shifts to cope with volume of parcels and deliveries this time of year.
Have fun coating. Keep us updated
Hi-Tek

[dikman]

I'll probably be better off just re-melting them and casting a new lot, methinks. I'll also have to scrub out my re-sizer, to get out any traces of lube in it. Another club member has been trying powder coating and wants to buy a small amount of the Gunmetal from me to give it a try, which is a good idea as it'll be a while before I'm organised to start coating.

I started off, 3 years ago, just wanting to shoot muzzle-loaders (rifles). That led to casting round balls (and building PID controllers) and the arcane art of patch lubes, then on to cap-and-ball revolvers, then flintlocks, which led to cutting flints, then lever rifles, which of course led to re-loading cartridges, then single-action revolvers and more re-loading and finally here I am about to start chemically coating boolits. I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I'd ever end up here!!

And somewhere in this I started making leather holsters and gun belts, which led to industrial sewing machines!

Quite a journey (and it isn't finished yet. Good thing I don't have to work anymore......).

[Ausglock]

Dikman.
I might have a job for ya.

I need a rig for my 1911 45 for Wild Bunch match, as well as an ammo belt for 44 Mag and 12 ga. All this on one belt?

[Avenger442]

I need one for a couple of guns too.

[bstone5]

The picture below is of two 38 caliber bullets that were fired in a short barrel revolver.

The bullets are 125 grain with the coating and a .008 aluminum gas check installed on a plain base bullet.

The gas checks stayed on the bullets and were intact when the bullets were recovered.

The bullets were recovered from a pile of dirt used to catch the bullets.

The 38 caliber bullet is popular with Cowboy Action Shooters, I add the gas check for the revolver bullets but gas checks are not allowed in Cowboy Action Shooting.

The rifling marks can be seen clearly on the lead and the aluminum gas check.

The load was a light load to keep the kick down since a woman also uses these bullets in another short barreled revolver.

[Avenger442]

bstone5

Is that two coats? Looks like one of the gold colors?

[bstone5]

Two coats of the Gold Color, I got the liquid from Bayou Bullets a while back.
I usual Spray Powder coat but from time to time I use the coating from Bayou Bullets.
Both coatings work for me in low velocity pistol caliber.

[Ausglock]

see how there is good colour down in the lube groove?

I'd say used too much coating per coat and caused adhesion issues.

Grooves are normally not coated when using the correct amount.

[dikman]

Trevor, I'd love to help you out, but the problem is that I'd need a 1911 to use to make the holster pattern. As you know, in this country that becomes a bit of a problem, as I can't just "borrow" one to use.

[Avenger442]

Trevor, I'd love to help you out, but the problem is that I'd need a 1911 to use to make the holster pattern. As you know, in this country that becomes a bit of a problem, as I can't just "borrow" one to use.


Not trying to push you if you don't want to do it. I know I couldn't find the time for something like that. I might be able to send you a scale model of my guns. One of mine is a Ruger 1911. That will let you make Trevor's, too.

I stopped doing projects for other people because it finally took over my time to the point that the work lost it's fun.

[dikman]

Not trying to hijack the thread, Avenger you have many good leatherworkers in the US - have a look at leatherworker.net (would be cheaper than me shipping something over). As for the scale model, I can guarantee that it would be seized by Customs as a replica, such are our laws.

Now, back to coatings......

[Avenger442]

Not trying to hijack the thread, Avenger you have many good leatherworkers in the US - have a look at leatherworker.net (would be cheaper than me shipping something over). As for the scale model, I can guarantee that it would be seized by Customs as a replica, such are our laws.

Now, back to coatings......

Your probably right about leather workers here in the States. Will look at link. I need something that I have not found at the usual merchandisers.

I hate it when Government gets the upper hand in telling the people. But I guess we keep putting them in power.

Back on topic and the 1911. Loaded my first 45 auto this last week.
155567

Not the best looking I have ever done but loaded packed and going to range sometime after Christmas. Had some trouble with bulged cases but have it ironed out, I think. Coating is the Gun Metal powder. It worked great with another alloy and my 44 magnum. Now to a lower pressure and softer bullet.

I mentioned deer hunting this year with Hi-Tek in another post. Here they are loaded packed and headed to the woods.
155569

This is the Hi-Tek 1035 Gold. The load is one, that I have verified three times, shooting 1 1/2 " groups at 100 yards. More than good for deer.

[666damosydney]

Well i tried again as per Trevs help and all worked out well tested in my 9mm egde @ 25m after 100 rounds no leading in the barrel thanks for all your help trev and every one else
Charge was 2.6g as30n so not a high power load.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uweh04l6sbn790c/20151206_144229.jpg?dl=0
candy apple red

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ncrz0qjx6nh6y6/20151212_121533.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qa2qdk4jt2wmwx3/20151205_163307.jpg?dl=0

[Ausglock]

No worries, Damo.

[Shotgundrums]

MMMmmmmmmm...Booooooolitsssss...
155642

[fredj338]

Playing with a new version of the Zombie Green.
Colour is lighter and very shiny.
Bakes OK, but with slight wipeoff.
Joe is going to tweek it and send another test sample.
This was the powder I was using. Sounds like it was mixed fine, just might not be quite thick enough. It works fine, just may need 3 coats.

[fredj338]

Anyone who cast and reloads should have powder scales, 20 grams = 308.65 grains. I mix 20 grams to 125 ml for the first coat and 20 grams to 100 ml second coat. Works every time.

I'll try the scale next time.

[Shotgundrums]

155951155952
:veryconfu

[HI-TEK]

155951155952
:veryconfu

Are they not a pretty bunch.
Almost like Christmas decorations..
You really have mastered the coatings .... well done

[dikman]

Hi guys, a question - instead of acetone/MEK, can automotive acrylic lacquer thinner be used instead? Like the other two, it's pretty volatile and flash dries pretty quick.

[HI-TEK]

Hi guys, a question - instead of acetone/MEK, can automotive acrylic lacquer thinner be used instead? Like the other two, it's pretty volatile and flash dries pretty quick.

Never tried it.
I dont know if the ingredients will be happy with that mix.
It will greatly depend on solvent mixtures, which are many and varied as supplied by each manufacturer.
It is your penny, so if you test a solvent, and it does not work, then, you will know that the one tested works or not.

You can use a mixture of 800mls Acetone mixed with 200mls denatured Alcohol, (Metho) blend.
Also, you can use 800mls MEK and adding 200mls Denatured Alcohol (Metho) blend.
These also work as well.

[Ausglock]

If you are thinking of using the stuff from supercheap Autos, Forget it.
Failure for stick. It must contain an oil or something.
I tried it early on.
I now only use Diggers Acetone from Bunnings.

[dikman]

Glad I asked, looks like Acetone it is.

[Shotgundrums]

No lacquer thinner! I've tried lacquer thinner long ago. It's not the best; doesn't work 100%. The coating appearance looks like what MEK does. Go with MEK if you want color purity.

[dikman]

I actually don't like the idea of using MEK. I read about it a long time ago with regard to modelling glues (and fibreglass) and if you get even a drop in your eyes then that's it, bye bye eye! I'll stick to the acetone, I reckon.

[HI-TEK]

I actually don't like the idea of using MEK. I read about it a long time ago with regard to modelling glues (and fibreglass) and if you get even a drop in your eyes then that's it, bye bye eye! I'll stick to the acetone, I reckon.

Both Acetone and MEK are not designed for eye contact.
Neither will be eye friendly.
Eye and personal protection against splashing solvent on yourself should be worn.
With modelling glue, it is mainly the fact that it can bond eyes shut ,is main problem, as well as MEK improving bond ability of glue to eye and being a strong degreaser.

MEK is main solvent in PVC pipe glue, and PVC Pipe primer.
This would have similar nasty properties with eyes. Yet, thousands of gallons are used every where.

[dikman]

MEK is main solvent in PVC pipe glue, and PVC Pipe primer.

True, however due to the high viscosity of that stuff there's little chance of it accidentally splashing into the eyes, unlike straight MEK. And yes, doubtless acetone would also not be good if it got in the eye, but I think I'll stick with acetone (a personal thing).

[Dusty1234]

What is everyone using for an oven? Currently I am using a cheap black and decker convection oven. My issue is I can only cook 4 lbs at a time and I am wanting to speed up my production. I cast and coat in my shed so that limits my power source to a counter top unit. End state I'd like to cook 2 4lbs batches at a time. Any suggestions would be helpful.

V/R
Dusty

[R1valdez]

Hi guys. This is my first time with this hi tek coating. My question is can I use a heat gun to help with drying after coating? I'm using powder version with 1 part powder to 6 part acetone. Thanks

[Ausglock]

Hi guys. This is my first time with this hi tek coating. My question is can I use a heat gun to help with drying after coating? I'm using powder version with 1 part powder to 6 part acetone. Thanks
Use a hair dryer. A heat gun may concentrate too much heat in one location.

[220]

Got around to a bit more load testing yesterday with HT and a few rifles.
TYB has a 375H&H we have been trying to find a all round cast hunting load for. Have been working with a NOE 378-275-FN-GC design cast from 2-2-96 as a HP and coated with HT Bronze.
Finally got to where we want to be yesterday 1800fps produced 1.5moa accuracy at both 50 and 100y, and at 1850fps just over moa for the group at 50 and just under for the group at 100y.
Pulled out my 1895 45/70 and nearly cried when a look down the barrel showed surface rust for about 6" in front of the chamber, well cleaned and oiled when I last used it 4 months ago so don't know what has happened.
**** happens I guess and not much I can do after the fact, so gave it a good scrub and shot a few NOE 460-405-RF from the same 2-2-96 alloy cast as a HP and HT Bronze coated.
Looks like I haven't damaged it to much the loads tested with the first powder at 50y produced
1200fps 0.82"
1256fps 0.48"
1311fps 1.19"
1339fps 0.57"

Next powder yielded
1404fps 1.13"
1471fps 0.97"
1546fps 0.40"

[HI-TEK]

"well cleaned and oiled when I last used it 4 months ago so don't know what has happened."

The possible problem is with the oil you used.
It may not have had corrosion inhibitor in oil.
The fact that you cleaned and oiled does not necessarily add a protective layer on the clean metal, and, depending on the oil used, may also promote rusting as a result.
You probably need a spray on RP lube made by CRC. That has corrosion inhibitors.
Another is the Marine grade spray lube, (also CRC), which has excellent anti corrosion additives as it protects metals from salt water.

[R1valdez]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/r1valdez/D4443540-F6D9-46D5-B49C-2C48262D7604.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/r1valdez/media/D4443540-F6D9-46D5-B49C-2C48262D7604.jpg.html)
Passed the wipe test and that is the smash test. Is that good to go? No flaking came off by the way.

[HI-TEK]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/r1valdez/D4443540-F6D9-46D5-B49C-2C48262D7604.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/r1valdez/media/D4443540-F6D9-46D5-B49C-2C48262D7604.jpg.html)
Passed the wipe test and that is the smash test. Is that good to go? No flaking came off by the way.

What a great job.
They look perfect.
Now to load and shoot them.

[Ausglock]

Looks fine. What is the Rifle bullet??

[R1valdez]

It's the lee 30cal 155gr. I use it for my Blackout.

[Balta]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/r1valdez/D4443540-F6D9-46D5-B49C-2C48262D7604.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/r1valdez/media/D4443540-F6D9-46D5-B49C-2C48262D7604.jpg.html)
Passed the wipe test and that is the smash test. Is that good to go? No flaking came off by the way.

What is the pistol bullet?

[R1valdez]

It's off a hardline 9mm mold.

[Rich22]

A Quick question since I have scanned the last 50 or so pages but have yet to find a real concensus. Amount of coating per lb of bullets. Currently for 9mm I am doing 3 coats. First coat 1ml/Lb second and third coats 1.25 ml/lb. This is 5-1-7 ratio. I am using the original black liquid (yes I have a ton of old school stuff left). Sounding about correct or way off? About to get a new oven in the next couple days and really ramp up production, streamline my process and revamp my times/temps/coating amounts.


Also, for failure reasons. Does not pass wipe test- likely requires longer/hotter? Passes wipe, fails smash- likely too hot/ too long? I am asking this since the reason for my new oven is a drastically overheated, and some reason a failure in the oven thermometer, which I have replaced. It was far too hot and they passed the wipe test and failed the smash.

[dikman]

Another step closer - I finally got an oven! I was chasing a couple of convection ovens on Gumtree (local ebay), but the sellers gave mobile phone numbers and every time I rang they went to a recording!! A pet hate of mine, btw, so I figured that they obviously don't want to sell their stuff.

I went to the local Cash Converters (pawn-type shop) and they had two there. I beat them down on the bigger one and was pretty happy with that. It's not a convection oven as I wanted something that was very basic as I intend to use a PID with it. The PID will allow it to keep a constant temp, with minimal variation, but to do that will have to cycle the whole oven off and on. I tried it with a short button sensor first, but that was slow to respond to temperature changes, so I tried a spare long immersion-type probe from my melting pots (you can see it sticking through the back, between where the top and bottom shelves will sit). That worked well and once set it reached 200C and stayed +/- 2C.

Now I just have to make up a second rack as it only came with one.
157206

[PAT303]

Rich,I've been coating my boolits 2kg at a time with 4ml of coating per coat,I dry them in the sun for an hour or so,it's 35-37 degree's Celsius here,heat the oven to 200C,stick them in for 12 minutes and let cool.If you over cook them or cook at high temps they will fail,I tried hotter temps around 350C when heat treating and had nothing but failure,they HT to 16Bhn when water dropped from 200C straight from the oven when cast from WW,pure lead and range scrap mixed three ways. Pat

[Ausglock]

6mls per 2KG of bullets with a 5,1,7 mix.
200Deg C for 12 minutes.
Dikman if there is no fan in your oven, make sure that there is good space around each bullet to allow the heating to be uniform. At the 6 minute mark, take the tray out and turn it 180deg and replace in the oven. this helps overcome hotspots and helps to give uniform heating to all bullets.

[dikman]

Thanks for the advice Trev. Doing all that is no big deal, as I won't be making large commercial quantities. At least I know that when I set it for 200C it will stay at 200C and the PID lets me know the exact temp at all times.

[PAT303]

Mate,in the pie ovens your best to cook 2kg at a time or they don't cook through,thats been my experience. Pat

[HI-TEK]

Thanks for the advice Trev. Doing all that is no big deal, as I won't be making large commercial quantities. At least I know that when I set it for 200C it will stay at 200C and the PID lets me know the exact temp at all times.

Most important small details that you need to know is
1. Dont tumble coat for too long, and just barely enough to coat (usually 10-15 seconds shake coating. Excess shake coatings can cause rough finishes.
2. Make sure that especially first coat is thoroughly dry before baking, otherwise it will fail smash test. (Moisture/solvent trapped in coating if not dried adequately, will prevent good bonding to alloys)

[Rich22]

Rich,I've been coating my boolits 2kg at a time with 4ml of coating per coat,I dry them in the sun for an hour or so,it's 35-37 degree's Celsius here,heat the oven to 200C,stick them in for 12 minutes and let cool.If you over cook them or cook at high temps they will fail,I tried hotter temps around 350C when heat treating and had nothing but failure,they HT to 16Bhn when water dropped from 200C straight from the oven when cast from WW,pure lead and range scrap mixed three ways. Pat


Ok So we are very close in amount of coating per pound and within a minute on the cook time and exact same temp. I cannot be that far off then, good now to wait for oven and hardware cloth

[Avenger442]

I have never cook mine hot enough to make them fail. So I can't say it will cause failure. Hottest I have cooked mine is 450 F. Those were without gas checks and for my .308. Passed smash test. They left a small amount of lead in the very end of the barrel at near max load. Cleaned it up easily. The accuracy was bad. Never reduced the load to get the accuracy and I think I'm just going to add the gas checks to that bunch.

I have only had one failure of the smash test. It was because I got in a hurry and didn't let them them dry long enough before cooking. I understand that coating too thick may cause smash test failure. I coat mine in a closed container which helps prevents this because (my thought process) the coating doesn't dry on the bullets while tumbling and build up thicker. Tumble them for about 30 seconds. I don't measure the amount I put in the tub when tumbling. Just squirt a little in a and tumble. Ausglock and most of the guys use an open tub tumble and tell you to listen for the sound change as a signal for dumping them out.

I've never had a wipe test failure. Usually cook mine between 390-400 F for 12 Min. Just for fun, cooked a bunch at 400 F for 30 min. Those also shot out of the .308 with no gas check at near max load. Again, not very accurate. Probably nothing to do with the Hi-Tek or the cook temp/time. Max loads in the .308 and a 16 BHN bullet with no gas check just don't seem to give good accuracy. I can add the gas check with same load and it gets good.

Coated 10 pounds of .308 this past week. Two different bullets five pounds each. I have my oven set up with a PID and the convection fan on another plug. On the first cook I forgot to plug in the fan and got some darker bullets. Second coat with the fan on evened most of the color.

Finally got a chance to test the 10 BHN hollow points coated with the Hi-Tek Gun Metal in the .45157257. Great accuracy, at least for me. Not a speck of lead in the barrel.

[Rich22]

A question for those here that have been doing this for a long time. I just got (literally in the box an hour ago) oven and want to do a multi rack system for it so can do more at a time, this is a dual fan convection unit, How much space between bullets(racks) vertically and between the bottom rack and the floor of the oven and the top rack and the top of the oven is a good idea? It is not quite 10 inches tall inside and if I could get 4 racks I would be very happy, that would allow me to put both more bullets overall in and less per square inch so more airspace around the bullets on a rack. Now to test how well it heats and maintains what I set it versus what the oven thermometers say.

Thank you

[Ausglock]

try it and see.
All ovens are different. I'd be surprised if your oven will do more that 1 tray of 2KG of bullets.
Got a picture of the oven and specs??

[Rich22]

try it and see.
All ovens are different. I'd be surprised if your oven will do more that 1 tray of 2KG of bullets.
Got a picture of the oven and specs??

Here it is , I believe its about 1500 Watts or so, cannot seem to find that on the documentation

Interior usable dimensions are 15.5 W x 14 D x 9.75 H so it is over twice the interior space I used to have. Ran it empty and it is 25 degrees Hot on the setting when compared to the oven thermometers I set it on 375 and it runs almost exactly 400.

Only issue I have with it so far is there seems to be absolutely no insulation on the thing. When at temp the outside is not just warm but will easily burn someone even if just accidently touched.

85 bucks so will have to see how it works. I was thinking of a 3 or 4 tier rack system I could just slide in and out and have 2 or 3 of them so while 1 is cooking one is cooling in front of a fan for further coating. Make it out of aluminum or steel flat plate, hardware cloth and threaded rods. 157458

[Ausglock]

I think you will find that you can only bake 1 tray at a time. anymore will overload the heating capacity and none of the bullets will bake corectly.
But.... you never know..

[dikman]

While I haven't baked anything yet, my trial run of my (non-fan) oven showed that it took at least twenty minutes to get up to temp, and that's with heating elements top and bottom! These things are notoriously inefficient and radiate heat everywhere!!!

I'm considering wrapping the thing in insulation and making a piece to fit in front of the glass :roll:.

[Ausglock]

Mine is top bottom element with rear fan. Only takes 10 minutes to reach 200Deg C prior to inserting tray of bullets.

[HI-TEK]

and radiate heat everywhere!!!
I'm considering wrapping the thing in insulation and making a piece to fit in front of the glass :roll:.[/QUOTE]
You can use Foil backed Rock wool internally against walls. (Dont block off Fan venting/circulating areas.
What you are now doing is warming your shed/house.
As oven is not insulated, all the generated heat is transferred by oven body to outside air and that is why it takes so long to get up to temperatures..
Once you have insulated oven, inside, you will be surprised at fast heat up times.
On top, simply get a couple of pieces of Fibro cement sheets, and stop air getting to metal. That will work easily and also save money with power use reduction.

[dikman]

I pulled mine apart when I got it (:roll:) and the only problem I would have is with the side that has the controls on it, but I can see that I'll have to do something with it, it's just so crudely designed!

[Avenger442]

On my previous oven the biggest problem I had was the gap between the door and the body of the oven. The fan was blowing all the heat out around the door. Finally sealed it and shortened the time it took to heat up. Oven that I am using now has a gap but not as large as the previous one. We are using them for something they were not manufactured to do.

[dikman]

It just occurred to me that one of those fireproof blankets that are used in kitchens might work. Not too thick so should fit in the cavities and can fit under the bottom element. Might have to look into it.

[Ausglock]

Don't forget to put a clay paver block in the bottom. helps to retain heat.

[dikman]

Not enough room (thickness) for a paver. I bought a blanket today and cut it up to fit. Problem with this fibreglass is it starts unravelling once it's cut!! I doubled the edge and screwed it in between the inner and outer skins on the sides and put 3 layers between the top and inner skin. For the back and bottom I cut one length to lay in the bottom and up the back, which I'll secure with screws, then probably just drape a piece over the glass door on the inside. It won't be as effective as decent insulation, but that was always going to be a problem to do. Should be better than nothing.

I picked up a couple of wire racks at an op shop for the princely sum of 50c, they just need a minor bit of modifying to fit, and I need to make a couple of fine mesh trays to fit on them. I've recast some of my waxed boolits, so they're ready to go, the only other thing I need are suitable containers to hold the mix (need to be acetone proof).

[Ausglock]

plastic Coke bottles work fine. So do the Aldi pop top apple juice bottles.

[dikman]

I rarely drink coke, but shouldn't be a problem finding empty bottles. More thanks, Trev.

[ffries61]

Here are my first 2 attempts, using Zombie green, the powder version, convection toaster oven, weigh and measured my coating and acetone so I should be spot on there, but I think my technique is off, the 9MM seems to get a good coverage, but very dark almost brown color, the 45's were more green, but pretty rough finish. Here are a couple pics, am I shaking too long or too much liquid with the bullets ? both sets got 2 coats.

Thanks, Fred

the 9MM (and a 45 after smash test)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=157620&d=1452325959

the 45's


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=157619&d=1452325916

[HI-TEK]

Here are my first 2 attempts, using Zombie green, the powder version, convection toaster oven, weigh and measured my coating and acetone so I should be spot on there, but I think my technique is off, the 9MM seems to get a good coverage, but very dark almost brown color, the 45's were more green, but pretty rough finish. Here are a couple pics, am I shaking too long or too much liquid with the bullets ? both sets got 2 coats.

Thanks, Fred

the 9MM (and a 45 after smash test)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=157620&d=1452325959

the 45's


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=157619&d=1452325916

Two main things.
1. If you look at pictures, you will see a different colour with same batch.
Some more Tan than others.
The 45's are more Green because the are heavier size. The 9mm are smaller in weight and heat up faster, and are more Tan.
Variations in colour are directly due to inadequate heat distribution. The tanned coloured finishes, may also be contributed to over heating or over cooking time.
2. Roughness, is normally due to tumble coating for too long.
After adding your 6mls of mixture to 250 bullets, mix shake coat for about 10 seconds, (just barely to coat all), then dump on drying mesh, and dry well and dont disturb.
2 coats done this way should be like glass finish, smooth and shiny.

[ffries61]

Awesome, thanks !!

[dikman]

For those who might be interested in my efforts at insulating (with a fire blanket) my little oven.
Prior to insulating it took about 20 mins. to reach 200C.
After insulating, 5 mins!!!!!

I did this twice, to make sure it was right. I suspect that draping a piece across the inside of the glass door may have had the biggest single effect. The outside of the oven still gets hot, of course, as the blankets are woven so still let some heat through.

The biggest problem with the blanket is that although it's woven the individual strands are themselves made up of lots of finer strands, so when cut it starts unravelling and being so fine it's difficult to sew! I ended up sewing it and then working silicone sealant into the cut ends. It works, but even though the silicone had cured overnight lots of fumes came out on the initial heating up.

Now I just have to find some small mesh for the trays and I'm all set to go.

[666damosydney]

Now I just have to find some small mesh for the trays and I'm all set to go.

You can go to bunnings and get a roll of gutter gaurd mess then make to size i did that thanks to trevs advice works great

[dikman]

Just got back from Bunnings, and after walking up and down every aisle (!) to see what they had I came away with the same stuff. I've now got enough mesh to last me a lifetime (or two)!!

[dikman]

Ok, I started, and not surprisingly I've got some issues? Mixture is 20 gms. powder in 100 mls. acetone, tumbled in small bucket for 10 secs.
157890
.44 cal, after initial coat, dried for 1/2 hour in hot sun.
157891
.44, baked for 10 mins @ 200C on lower shelf
157892
.357, initial coat, left in hot sun.
157893
.357, baked at same time on top shelf.

Minimal temp variation in oven. Thoughts, anyone? I'll do a second coat once they've cooled to see what happens.

Later in the day:

I sized the boolits and re-coated them, but this time put them all on one shelf in the middle of the oven (near the temp. sensor). In thinking about it, I figured that the top shelf had probably overcooked, so by putting them on the middle shelf I could see what effect it would have. Cooked for 10 mins. @200C.
157918

Both calibres passed the wipe test, but the .357 showed very small flakes when I hit it with a hammer on an anvil. The .44 passed ok. I'm guessing that the .357's were overcooked , which is why the flaking occurred?

These aren't pretty to look at, but that doesn't bother me as long as they work. I suspect my coating technique needs a bit of work (!), but I am wondering what colour these should be, as I expected gunmetal to be grey or bluish-grey? Maybe I need to cook them a little longer than 10 mins?

[Ausglock]

Yep. Overbaked. use the middle shelf.
Bake a larger lot. Small lots tend to fail.
250 38 bullets, 200 44 bullets.
Use 6mls of coating per 2kg of bullets.

You will get it after awhile..

[dikman]

I only did a small first lot mainly as a test, to see what would happen. Lower shelf and middle shelf produced the same result, so I now know not to use the top shelf. I'm curious about the colour, though, I didn't expect green ones! What effect would a slightly longer bake (12 mins instead of 10) have?

[Avenger442]

157927

These are loaded with the Gunmetal. Kind of a dark grey-blue. Three coats 390 F to 400F for 12 min. I do three coats just for insurance against leading. It has worked for me. Because I just coat for myself it's not a lot of trouble to add the third coat.

[Ausglock]

Dikbloke. What colour coating did you get?

[dikman]

It's labelled Gunmetal (and comes out blue when it's mixed with acetone). The coating before baking is blue, as per the first photos. I'm perplexed as to why it turned green. Makes me wonder what my Zombie Green will turn out like.......

[Ausglock]

Have a look at avenger's photo. that is gunmetal. you have way way way overbaked yours. watch your temp readout.
prewarm oven. watch temp.
when at 200 deg, insert tray. watch temp
at 6 minute mark, watch temp. is it at 200 deg?

The coated bullets only need 2 minutes at the actual temp for the coating to "fix".
If you have improved the heat retaining ability of your oven, you may only need to bake for 8 minutes.
Trial and error.

[dikman]

Temp drops about 20 degrees as soon as I open the oven to put in the tray, of course, can't avoid it. Takes about 2-3 mins to get back up and then stays within 3 degrees or so of 200C.

It did occur to me that maybe the oven is now working too well, but not knowing enough about the processes involved it was only speculation on my part. I'll try a few more and vary the procedure a bit, I figure it has to be something I'm doing because the stuff works for others.

A bit later...
I just did another batch of .357, first coat only and baked for 7-8 mins. They came out a lovely emerald green! (Like the others). I think I need to wait for Joe's input, as not knowing anything about the actual powder material makes it difficult to know what's going on. Without suitable test results, as in what happens to the coating at various temperatures and time frames I'm in the dark.

[HI-TEK]

Temp drops about 20 degrees as soon as I open the oven to put in the tray, of course, can't avoid it. Takes about 2-3 mins to get back up and then stays within 3 degrees or so of 200C.

It did occur to me that maybe the oven is now working too well, but not knowing enough about the processes involved it was only speculation on my part. I'll try a few more and vary the procedure a bit, I figure it has to be something I'm doing because the stuff works for others.

A bit later...
I just did another batch of .357, first coat only and baked for 7-8 mins. They came out a lovely emerald green! (Like the others). I think I need to wait for Joe's input, as not knowing anything about the actual powder material makes it difficult to know what's going on. Without suitable test results, as in what happens to the coating at various temperatures and time frames I'm in the dark.

My question/s at this stage are,
1. how do you measure your oven internal temperatures?
The Gunmetal, will turn a dark Emerald green when over cooked.
I did send you coated and baked Gunmetal picture, to show you what it should look like after two coats.
2. Is your oven fan forced air circulation?

With final colour and baking, did you test with smash test?

I have had a commercial manufacturer, cooked the Dark Green coating for 3 months at 8 hour shifts, 5 day week, at 200C.
It went Black, but worked extremely well when loaded and shot.

There are many contributing factors involved with colour chages. Much cannot be resolved as some of the colours are heat affected, chemical reactions take place with some colours and Resin, also,resin over cooked will turn from pale yellow to Tan.
If you just consider the Gunmetal colour, which is Dark Blue Greenish, when resin is over cooked and is tan, the effect is that the yellow colour in resin and Blue of product will end up a Green colour. (Essentially Blue plus Yellow make Green)
I hope I have offered adequate explanation.

[dikman]

Thanks Joe, I'm using a PID to control the oven and it's set to 200C, so it's probably about as good as I'm going to get at controlling the temp. The sensor is mounted in the back panel, sticking through at the halfway point, so a tray in the middle should be at that temp (unlike at the top, which I've proved can overheat). The oven isn't a convection type, but the boolits on the centre tray are showing even colouring.
The green ones passed the wipe and smash test.

What you seem to be saying is that my oven, set at 200C, is overcooking them, even at 8 mins?

I just started re-reading this thread (!!) and funnily enough it starts off showing some that are blue when first coated and then go green when baked, which is what I'm getting. I'm not complaining about the coating itself, as I'm sure that what I've done will work, I just can't figure out why I can't get that nice gunmetal look.

I guess I'll have to try one of the other colours that I've got to see what happens, that should prove if it's the oven causing the problem.

Oh, and I don't recall seeing any pictures of the colours I should expect.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Joe, I'm using a PID to control the oven and it's set to 200C, so it's probably about as good as I'm going to get at controlling the temp. The sensor is mounted in the back panel, sticking through at the halfway point, so a tray in the middle should be at that temp (unlike at the top, which I've proved can overheat). The oven isn't a convection type, but the boolits on the centre tray are showing even colouring.
The green ones passed the wipe and smash test.

What you seem to be saying is that my oven, set at 200C, is overcooking them, even at 8 mins?

I just started re-reading this thread (!!) and funnily enough it starts off showing some that are blue when first coated and then go green when baked, which is what I'm getting. I'm not complaining about the coating itself, as I'm sure that what I've done will work, I just can't figure out why I can't get that nice gunmetal look.

I guess I'll have to try one of the other colours that I've got to see what happens, that should prove if it's the oven causing the problem.

Oh, and I don't recall seeing any pictures of the colours I should expect.

OK< May be I was thinking of someone elses that asked for the Gunmetal colour.
I will try to post it here, but nor sure if I can.157987

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=dikman;3503748]Thanks Joe, I'm using a PID to control the oven and it's set to 200C, so it's probably about as good as I'm going to get at controlling the temp.

It is as good as you can get, and at point of sampling it may be exactly 200C.
But where sensor is located, will tell you temperature at point of sampling, but from what I have seen, your oven has hot spots, and colder spots and is obvious from uneven baked colours being produced.
If you mount a small motor outside with shaft going through wall with a fan, you would get much more even all around heating, and your PID would measure moving air temperatures instead of static air at a fixed point.
Air circulation will also hugely increase temperature transfer and rise inside oven.
That will allow very good and even bake.
The coatings are not that upset with heating, but final colours can be affected and is not what was desired.

[Avenger442]

dikman
Do you have one of those cheap cooking thermometers? 157988 About $10 US.

When I first started baking the coating I didn't have a PID control. I used one of the thermometers in the tray of bullets and watched it as they cooked. Had to adjust the temp several times during the bake. The PID allowed me to walk away from the oven as they baked. I have put the thermometer in the tray of bullets with the PID controlling the temp and found that the bullets in the tray were 15-20 F hotter than the set temp on the PID. Which is what Joe is saying about the location of the sensor reading vs the actual temp of the bullets. Adjusted PID and all's good.

A fan will definitely even out the color in your tray.

If you have covered the glass with insulation you probably will have to move it to see the thermometer but it is a good check on the actual temp of the bullets.

[dikman]

I've toyed with the idea of fitting a fan, but because of the temp involved (200+C) it would have to be a fan designed for high temps. No point fitting it outside because it would be blowing in cold air.

Anyhow, I did some more experimenting and the results are......interesting.

I had a batch waiting to bake the second coat, so I got the oven up to temp, put them in and removed the covering over the glass. I had a stopwatch and sat in front and watched! At 2 1/2 mins the blue started turning green, no hint of any other colours, straight to green I think you'll have to admit that it's unlikely, at 2 1/2 mins @200C, that they've been overcooked. Yes, I could see that the heating was a little uneven in the oven, but it didn't take long for all of them to go green. I left them in for a total of 10 mins, let them cool then tried the smash test. No problems, other than a couple of tiny flakes where the lead had a sharp edge (flat round nose).

In the meantime, I mixed up a batch of Bronze and coated the remaining .357s. The first coat came out a lovely deep golden colour, the second coat a darker goldish-bronze. Smash test same as for the green.

As far as I'm concerned I've proven, to my satisfaction, that there's nothing wrong with my oven setup, my basic procedures (which will doubtless need refining a little) or the product. Which raises the question, Joe - although my jar is labelled Gunmetal, is there any chance it's actually got Green in it by mistake? Nothing else makes any sense to me.

[HI-TEK]

As far as I'm concerned I've proven, to my satisfaction, that there's nothing wrong with my oven setup, my basic procedures (which will doubtless need refining a little) or the product. Which raises the question, Joe - although my jar is labelled Gunmetal, is there any chance it's actually got Green in it by mistake? Nothing else makes any sense to me.[/QUOTE]

Well, there is a slight possibility that you got a questionable batch .
With every batch we made so far, it was as per our photo.
I simply do not understand why this one is different.
My only suggestion as possibility, is that when coating mixture is made up, not all the "ingredients" are well enough suspended whilst decanting onto the projectiles during coating process.
(This rationale is based on looking at your first photo posted)
The light colour produced, can be caused such light features, as not all materials are present in dry film that would result in the darker finish.
This powdered system does contain ingredients, which settle quickly with dilution required.
If you look at the picture I sent previously, you can see the various layers in the solvent, and suspension/sediment in bottle is definitely not Blue or Green.

Every component must be well stirred in whilst coating, and this produces the final colour which starts do develop whilst coating and increases/intensifies during baking.

Can I request, if you can re do some, and try coating with a well mixed mixture, and see if this may be the contributing factor ?

[leadman]

dikman, I also started with a plain toaster oven, no fan. Had ongoing problem with it with hot and cool spots. I did find 2 convection ovens in thrift stores. One was digital and works great as is. The other I took the oven apart and removed the fan wires from the oven circuit and attached a separate power cord for the fan. I have the fan plugged into a power strip so just turn it off when the oven is emptied. I use a pid to control the coils and this works great.
I used crushed rock of about 1" size to help retain heat in the oven. Can't even tell where I stole them out of the yard.

[dikman]

Leadman, as I said by observation there are localised hot/cold spots, but if the colours are all turning within a couple of minutes (in the early stages) I don't see a problem. Having said that, if I come across a suitable fan I'll figure out some way of retro-fitting it to the oven.

Joe, I use two .440 round balls in the bottom of the mix containers and give them a thorough shaking before use. Trev emphasized the importance of this in his posts. This was the first time I'd tried the Bronze, using exactly the same methods as with the "Gunmetal" so I believe my operating procedure is pretty sound. I'm very happy with the way the Bronze came out, with good solid coverage and colour. I've now done four batches with the "Gunmetal", with identical results (ignoring the first batch that was on the top shelf and obviously overcooked - a good learning experience).

I can add a third coat tomorrow if that's what you mean, and I'll even sit and watch it 'cos it was interesting watching the colour change. I'm not a gambling man (because I hate to lose) but in this case I'll bet you a container of powder that the results will be the same - what's known as a "sure thing" :grin:. My understanding of the processes involved has increased enormously because of this little problem, so I'm feeling pretty confidant. I can understand that you'd like to figure out what's going on, but the only issue now is really the colour, other than that I believe the coating is working fine.

[HI-TEK]

Dikman
Thanks for quick feed back.
Well,.... I am stumped.
Totally baffling results and totally not expected.
I am happy to replace that material.
As I have said previously, all the coatings should work, but final colour/s requires satisfying users needs.

What is interesting is, that your mixing balls, should start to develop the colour during mixing/shaking, as mechanical action starts colour production.
It seems, that this is also not happening. Most curious.

Can I ask if you can post final coating colour after two baked coats of that colour?

[Ausglock]

Well. I just came down from the shed.
I got the last test sample of Gunmetal and mixed and coated with it.
250 135gn RN 9mm bullets.
Worked fine.
Wipe smash fine.
colour fine.

Batch would be the last sent.

[dikman]

Photo of two baked colours, with Bronze for comparison.
158052
Sorry about the photo being a little dark, this was the best out of three that I took. I've just cast some more boolits in pure lead and am waiting for the first coat to dry before baking, so we'll see how these go (no reason the result should be any different).

Joe, I doubt very much if it's a "faulty batch" as I would expect that your manufacturing process is pretty sound. As I said before, I reckon either the jar was incorrectly labelled or the wrong powder was put in the jar, it's the only explanation that fits the facts. Thanks for the offer to replace it, but it's going to cost me a bit to return it (which is lost money), nor would you really want to pay for return shipping of a product that is, essentially, not faulty.

Guess I'm going to end up with a lot of green boolits (I'm just not quite sure why these things always seem to happen to me [smilie=b:).

Still, it's not as if it's the end of the world.

[HI-TEK]

Dikman,
Thanks for Photo.
Did theses pass tests?

Can you please do me a favor?
Can you please coat the Gunmetal again, dry, and bake at 200C for 10 minutes.
Then, take out half , and cook the rest for another 2 minutes, then compare the results.
The Yellow bands, as seen on cooked alloy is suggesting to me that coating is very thinly applied, and is also not baked enough.
The coating should darken with an additional coat and extra baking.
Please advise with photo when done.
Most interested in results.

[dikman]

Joe, all the batches have passed both tests. I've just finished my batch of pure lead boolits (.357 and .44), two coats, with exactly the same results. At the 3 min. mark they started changing from blue to green and within a couple of minutes all had changed. A fellow club member bought some of the powder from me, as he wanted to try it out, and just confirmed he's getting the same results.

I've just packed everything away (!), but I have a few left over from reloading this morning and will give them another coat and try what you suggest.

A bit later....
Ok, I did as you asked. The only difference is that the boolits now have a slightly deeper green, with a more solid colour. No discernible difference when they're given a couple more minutes.

As to the yellow in the grooves, I can explain that. I forgot that in my first attempt I had a batch on the top shelf and they over-cooked and went a golden-tan colour. In my ignorance I threw them all in together for the second coat, and obviously when I did the testing as luck would have it I must have picked one of the good ones, which is why they passed. I just tried the hammer test on a couple of those with the yellow grooves (after three coats) and they failed!

So I think we're basically back to the fact that the powder is working as it should and I've got Green powder, not Gunmetal.


Still later....
Something else that just occurred to me (amazing what a beer can do...) Joe, I've been assuming that you do actually have a Dark Green in powder form? The reason I ask is that Donnie doesn't list the colour on his website, so it made me wonder - because if you don't, then it means I do have Gunmetal and it is faulty.

[Ausglock]

I have never tested a dark Green powder.

[HI-TEK]

Something else that just occurred to me (amazing what a beer can do...) Joe, I've been assuming that you do actually have a Dark Green in powder form? The reason I ask is that Donnie doesn't list the colour on his website, so it made me wonder - because if you don't, then it means I do have Gunmetal and it is faulty.[/QUOTE]

Donnie has Dark Green Liquid but no dark green powder.
It is a worry.
You have some finished products that are OK, and others that are not.
I do not know how beer would change these results.
The final colour as per your last photo, was much closer to the photo I posted, but there were large variations between the appearance of the finished projectiles.

May I suggest, you refine your coating/Drying/Baking process, so that all projectiles pass all tests after first coat, and also with the second coat.
It is important, that if the first coat does not pass smash test, do not apply a second coat, it wont fix adhesion problems with first coat.
You have to ensure that first coat, (irrespective of colour) has bonded well to pass smash test. Only then coat dry and bake with a second coat.

The dark green colour/s, in fact starts going very dark, (almost black) after it is exposed to heat, especially excess heat..

These observations were based on a dark green liquid coating, where the dark green went almost black with over heating or excess heating and did not stay Green.

I expect, that the Green and Yellow band,you are now seeing, may also suggest inadequate baking or alloys not reaching correct temperature for long enough.
The yellow band in lube groove, is suggesting, that the coating mixture was not adequately mixed when coating alloys, as there should not be any plain Yellow colour that is also transparent.
Plain Yellow colour suggest only resin being present and no other of the suspended additives that forms final colour.
Plain Resin will turn a golden colour on baking.

Excess baking should not affect coating bond on alloy, and the only thing that should happen is, the final colour will darken progressively.

Other areas of concern is, with your smash test, if you had failure with only some correctly prepared and baked projectiles, and others passed tests, this is suggesting inadequate drying, as there is poor adhesion to alloy if especially the first coat has not dried adequately.

Quite frankly, I am prepared to send you a pre-paid satchel, and you return all alleged faulty material and there is no cost to you with returning the product.
On receipt, I am going to have it tested independently and would be happy to replace it at my expense, if the material is found not working, as being alleged.

Alternatively, I simply give you a refund, and you keep the coating.

[dikman]

Joe, if you don't actually have a dark green powder then I'm really confused at what I've got. I've done several batches now, and with the exception of the first one, which I know was overcooked, all of them have been consistent in how they turned out, and all passed both tests. The fact that my Bronze batch turned out fine, using exactly the same procedure, shows that my basic methods are good, if not I should have had problems with the Bronze too.

As for the mixture, I only make a small batch at a time (20 gms to 100 mls acetone). I shake it thoroughly and the mixture is a light blue when mixed, as you can see on the coated bullets before baking. Is that the correct colour for Gunmetal when mixed?
I also just went out and gave one of my pure lead bullets a couple of hefty wacks with a hammer on my anvil and the only signs of flaking were right on a sharp edge.

Has anyone else watched the colour changes as the bullets cook? That would be a good guide to what to expect.

Looks like I'll be mixing/baking a few more today. I'll do one batch a bit longer, say 15 mins, and see what happens. I'll also mix up some Zombie Green and see what happens with that. I simply can't see what I'm doing wrong and I need to find out.

If you want it back for testing, Joe, that's fine. I don't intend giving up on the product, and I'm not after a refund, but I need to know what's going on.

A little later...
It occurred to me that I need some sort of control in this experiment, so I've mixed a small batch - 1/3 Gunmetal, 1/3 Bronze and 1/3 Zombie Green, which are now drying in the sun. I'll bake them all together, so either all should work or all should fail.

[dikman]

Today's results...
158155
First coat.
158156
After first bake, 13 mins. All passed the wipe and hammer test.
158157
Second coat.
158158
After second bake, 13 mins. All passed the wipe and hammer test.

Mixing in clear containers means that I can tell when the stuff has been mixed, by the way.

Please feel free to tell me what I'm doing wrong. (It's a pity that the blue changes to green, as I rather like the blue).

[HI-TEK]

Thanks for your post.
You are doing nothing wrong.
We have no coating, liquid or powder, that will stay a Blue colour after bake.
As I have explained many times previously, the Blue colours that are available, many will not withstand cure conditions, and will simply fade, or go brown, or Black.
Others will react with the coatings, and produce undesirable colours and finishes.
Any, (a very very few) and very expensive Blue colours, which withstand heat and chemistry involved with our coatings, simply are affected with the resin colour effects, where resin "gold" colour that is developed, mixed with the Blue colour, produces various shades of Green finishes. (Yellow and Blue=Green)
The only explanation that is possible why your colour is a lot lighter is, that in the batch made most recently, usage of ingredients to react and produce the colour required may not be up to standard.
I have taken samples and are having it tested independently.
If it is found that the final colour of this batch is not up to required intensity, it is easily fixable, but any corrections will not produce a Blue colour.

If you look at your last coated Gunmetal at 13 minutes, it is getting very close to the colour for that product.
The intensity/depth of the final colour seems not quite right.
The variation of this final colour, should not affect end use performance.

[Avenger442]

dikman

Correct me if I'm wrong but, the blue coated bullets in your photos are fresh coated un-baked. If that is true then they look like they are the same color my gunmetal is before being baked.

[dikman]

Thanks Avenger, that's one of the things I wanted to know - the unbaked colour.

Joe, as you no doubt know it's often difficult to get an accurate colour representation with a camera. Trust me, the green colour on this batch is little different to the others I have done. There's certainly no hint of any grey colouring in any of them. Looks like you now have a dark green in your inventory :smile:. I guess the only thing left to do is to bake a batch for an extended period and see what happens.

[Avenger442]

Because my curiosity is easily stirred I would like Joe to analyze the powder. Maybe we do have, unknowingly created, a new color to choose from. A lot of good things can come accidentally in life.

[Ausglock]

There is a sample from this suspect batch on its way to me for testing....
Watch this space..........

[HI-TEK]

Because my curiosity is easily stirred I would like Joe to analyze the powder. Maybe we do have, unknowingly created, a new color to choose from. A lot of good things can come accidentally in life.

Hi Avenger,
That process is under way.
I have some of that product in stock and am sending it to be coated and baked as normal.
I have suspicions, that this colour was produced by same ingredients I used previously. Why???? I dont have an answer.
With Green colour, it may be an omen as well. I only just received a new prototype Green material for testing in our powdered systems.
I also have two new Yellow, and one Orange to test, and (hush, hush, hush) a potential Blue.
I have almost given up with developing a Blue, as over 20 years of testing every thing possible, none worked and stayed Blue.
Watch this space on developments....

[dikman]

I tried another small sample, one coat only and baked for 20 mins. It's definitely green! The only noticeable difference was something Joe mentioned, the yellow that can be seen in some of the grooves can now be seen on parts of the body (although it's a bit spotty).

I think I've now run out of variations that I can try. Joe, does this mean I get paid as a product tester? :lol::lol::lol:

[HI-TEK]

I tried another small sample, one coat only and baked for 20 mins. It's definitely green! The only noticeable difference was something Joe mentioned, the yellow that can be seen in some of the grooves can now be seen on parts of the body (although it's a bit spotty).

I think I've now run out of variations that I can try. Joe, does this mean I get paid as a product tester? :lol::lol::lol:

I hate to say it, but I do have some reservations about your coating method.
I am not critizing you, as you have only recently started coating use. There is a technique that needs to be adopted when coating.
Blotchy irregular finishes usually occur, when coating process is done for too long.
Coating becomes tacky and starts to rip off areas which exposes and or changes finish, and after drying and baking, the coating is not smooth and shiny, and will display "thin" spots where alloy can be seen.
Coating with additonal coats will not repair such defects.
These "thin" spots will be more Yellow and trasnparent, as what seems to be happening with your products.
A yellow, baked coating in lube grooves, (again), is telling me, that you do not have all ingredients contained in coating that will colour the grooved areas the same as all other areas.
The grooves should also be very similar in colour to the rest of surfaces.

The coating process, should only take about 10 or so seconds, and, just barely until you get coverage. Then dump and thoroughly dry, (even force dry with warm air) dont disturb, then bake.

Product tester fees......?????
I only have been doing this for some 20 plus years. Thanks for offer:lol::lol::lol:

[dikman]

That's ok, Joe, all advice is welcome, seeing that I'm new to all this (I have to say that I've learned a lot in the last few days because of this "issue").

"The coating process, should only take about 10 or so seconds, and, just barely until you get coverage". That's basically what I've been doing, using the quantities mentioned in the instructions. What I have noticed, however, is that the "Green" appears to be a little trickier to get an even coverage, compared to the Bronze (pretty easy) and the Zombie Green (seems easier to get thin coats). Maybe the Green needs thinning a little more?

Anyhow, I'm not going to spend any more time on it, I'll wait and see what the experts come up with.

Just had a thought, maybe I should put this up on ebay as a rare example of a Hi-Tek Dark Green powder - maybe call it British Racing Green:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:.

[HI-TEK]

"The coating process, should only take about 10 or so seconds, and, just barely until you get coverage". That's basically what I've been doing, using the quantities mentioned in the instructions. What I have noticed, however, is that the "Green" appears to be a little trickier to get an even coverage, compared to the Bronze (pretty easy) and the Zombie Green (seems easier to get thin coats). Maybe the Green needs thinning a little more?

You are correct. Some of the coatings seem more user friendly and forgiving.
The only thing that I feel may be a problem contributing factor, with coating technique, is the small amount of projectiles you are coating at one time.
From all who had problems in the past, all learned that there are too many problems that can occur with trying to make very small batches.
Reproduce-ability and repeatable quality with trying to do small batches is very poor.
Historically I always advise, cast plenty first, as coating is very fast ,and uses up cast projectiles very quickly.
If you make up 100 mls of coating mix, with this volume, you may be able to coat about 2000 projectiles with two coats. (It goes a hell of a long way)

[dikman]

I didn't expect to get it right first go, as with everything there will be a learning curve. What I've proven to myself is that my setup/equipment works and I can make usable coated projectiles. Fine-tuning the process will come with more experience. What threw me initially was not getting a gunmetal colour, and because I'm new to this the obvious conclusion that people reached was that I was doing something wrong which was one of the reasons I only did small batches. Now that I know it wasn't me, in future I'll be doing larger amounts because it's more time-effective.

Now I just have to cast more.......

[Avenger442]

dikman

I got so wrapped up in the coating process that I forgot to ask. Have you shot any of the "rare British Racing Green"?


Joe
If you come up with an orange and a blue please send to Donnie. Those are my team colors and will definitely buy.158199

[HI-TEK]

Joe
If you come up with an orange and a blue please send to Donnie. Those are my team colors and will definitely buy.158199[/QUOTE]

How are you doing Avenger,
With the Blue, there is a line about a mile long of people wanting that colour, dating back many years.
I have had so many disappointments with trying to make a Blue, I almost gave up.
Initially, the materials as used for Gunmetal, were supposedly a very dark Blue.
Initial tests were not all that good. The final colour achieved with recommended addition rates actually turned Black or intensely dark blue.
I made up and tested about a dozen recipes, before we struck onto the Gunmetal.colour.
The Yellows, all previously went a strange Brown, sick colours.
I am hoping, that these two new ones, as just received, will provide better results.
I wont know for sure until late next week.
I do have a shipment being made for Donnie, as we speak.
If we get back positive results with these new coloured coatings, I will try to send some with the shipment.

[dikman]

Avenger, just shot a few today, both .38sp and .44-40 (rifle). I figured if there's going to be any problems it will be with the rifle - heavier load and longer barrel. I swabbed after a few shots, and then a few more, with no sign of any flaking in the barrel. We were shooting at steel plates, so went looking for any remnants of the boolits. They were pretty badly shattered, but we found what we think are the nose parts of a few and they still had the coating attached. So it seems to work ok.

Now, my colleague, who bought some of the powder, had also been experimenting with it. His coating was a slightly darker green, with a slightly more even coverage. He is a spray painter by trade (and has recently dabbled in powder coating) so his method of mixing was somewhat different - he just mixed the stuff until it looked right, so couldn't give me any quantities! I suspect he was using a higher dose of powder than me, which would tie in with what Joe said about me possibly not having enough "solids" in my mix (even though I was carefully measuring out the recommended quantities). My friend was also using a non-convection oven like me, and baking for 10 mins.

So in a nutshell the Green appears to work ok, but may need a higher ratio of powder to liquid.

[DerekP Houston]

I'm trying the bronze and black today on 92gr 380 acp rounds. Seemed to apply much easier the more I added to the bucket, at first it wouldn't stick.

Edit: Oops, first coat was a tad too heavy...bet it shoots fine though.

[Avenger442]

DerekPHouston
Did first coat pass smash and wipe test?

[DerekP Houston]

159023

so there's my 2nd attempt at hi-tek copper. Finish came out better doing the 2 thinner coats. I hadn't realized even on the "clear" patches, after baking the color shows up. I'll continue to use up the batch i bought and see how it improves. I didn't see a shooting difference between these and PC of the same type.

Yes, oddly enough the heavy single coat passed the smash/wipe test. Same thing with the next batch, no issue with adherence or flaking paint. Preheated the oven to 375f (or 400? whatever the oven feels like), baked for 12-14 mins once hot.

[Gremlin460]

Thinner coats = a smoother finish.

[Avenger442]

I had some slightly flaky 45s that I shot out of my 1911 just to see if I got any leading. Didn't lead the barrel. Unfortunately had some bulged cases in the group that I didn't notice and had to stop after about 30 rounds. Coating was 1035 Gold liquid version on COWW with 2% tin. Accuracy was good.

[666damosydney]

G-Day All,
Just wondering if any one has tried using a food dehydrator to just dry the projectiles after coating i have one here but wasn't sure how hot how long to try?
Welcome any comments please

[HI-TEK]

G-Day All,
Just wondering if any one has tried using a food dehydrator to just dry the projectiles after coating i have one here but wasn't sure how hot how long to try?
Welcome any comments please

I would not recommend it.
You are drying solvents, and vapours are not suitable for such equipment.
If you want quicker drying, simply warm fresh cast projectiles about 5 C above ambient, coat quickly and dump onto drying mesh, dont disturb, and use a household pedestal fan to speed up drying.
If you coat quickly, the additional warmth, contained in alloy, should dry coating quickly.
To test the "dryness", simply place one or two into the oven. Bake, then cool, and do smash test and solvent wipe test.
After baking, if all tests passes with samples, then bake rest.

[Shotgundrums]

I would not recommend it.
You are drying solvents, and vapours are not suitable for such equipment.
If you want quicker drying, simply warm fresh cast projectiles about 5 C above ambient, coat quickly and dump onto drying mesh, dont disturb, and use a household pedestal fan to speed up drying.
If you coat quickly, the additional warmth, contained in alloy, should dry coating quickly.
To test the "dryness", simply place one or two into the oven. Bake, then cool, and do smash test and solvent wipe test.
After baking, if all tests passes with samples, then bake rest.

The dehydrator will work. I use another small convection oven to dry them if it's cold in the garage. But like Joe said, the solvent content could flash around hot stuff. I usually heat the bullets before tumbling like Joe said, let em sit for a bit, then throw them into the "drying oven" at 150 for 20 mins. Then bake in as normal in other designated oven.

[DerekP Houston]

G-Day All,
Just wondering if any one has tried using a food dehydrator to just dry the projectiles after coating i have one here but wasn't sure how hot how long to try?
Welcome any comments please

Just unplug the heating element and it works better than a fan setup. I wouldn't recommend heating them to much. I set mine in the sun with a fan on em and they are dry reasonably quick.

[666damosydney]

Thanks for the every ones input it was cold so i remembered i had the unit used to dry brass in it.
Might ask a guy i know to disconect the heater element so it becomes cold air blowing only.
Any one in sydney know a good lead dealer apart from ww from tyre shops??

[Avenger442]

The tire stores in US are beginning to not be that good a source for lead. They were selling a five gallon bucket for about $40. Last bucket I bought was about 40% steel and zinc weights. I found a metal scrap yard that will let me go through the wheel weights they take in for recycle.

Got to cast some more bullets. I haven't had a chance to test the black HiTek yet. If I can find the time I'm going to cast 44 hollow points for the Ruger and coat with the black. Just made some black powder and may try to load some 44 specials with it. New branch to the ever growing hobby.

[Gremlin460]

Thanks for the every ones input it was cold so i remembered i had the unit used to dry brass in it.
Might ask a guy i know to disconect the heater element so it becomes cold air blowing only.
Any one in sydney know a good lead dealer apart from ww from tyre shops??

Look up small foundry's, they sell pre mixed lead pure lead antimony and tin...

[666damosydney]

Look up small foundry's, they sell pre mixed lead pure lead antimony and tin...

thanks grem

[ioon44]

I would not recommend it.
You are drying solvents, and vapours are not suitable for such equipment.
If you want quicker drying, simply warm fresh cast projectiles about 5 C above ambient, coat quickly and dump onto drying mesh, dont disturb, and use a household pedestal fan to speed up drying.
If you coat quickly, the additional warmth, contained in alloy, should dry coating quickly.
To test the "dryness", simply place one or two into the oven. Bake, then cool, and do smash test and solvent wipe test.
After baking, if all tests passes with samples, then bake rest.

Will warming fresh cast projectiles about 5 C above ambient still work if the ambient is 0 C?

I try to warm my to about 30 C before coating no mater what the ambient temp is, if I don't need this much warming it would speed up my process.

[HI-TEK]

Will warming fresh cast projectiles about 5 C above ambient still work if the ambient is 0 C?

I try to warm my to about 30 C before coating no mater what the ambient temp is, if I don't need this much warming it would speed up my process.

Ioon44
The suggestion about warming alloys before coating, came about from tests done that determined, that coating mixture, was able to chill alloys by as much as 5C whilst solvent is drying.
If the ambient is for example at 25C and alloy is chilled to 20C, then it stands to reason, that moisture may be absorbed & trapped below coating surface drying skin.
Once the skin formation is formed, the drying process is significantly reduced.
Coating may feel "dry", but exposure in oven will heat trapped vapors, and lift coating from alloy. The alloy is far cooler than the coating as coating also insulates alloy well.
When the coating is lifted from alloy by heated trapped vapors, results in poor adhesion, as coating being away from alloy will cure faster, but will not be stuck to the alloy well.
Compensating for temperature losses with warmer alloys will speed up drying rate and coating will be much more free from solvent and trapped moisture.
Alternatively, warm air drying is also useful such as produced by a hair dryer.
Excessive heat drying is not needed.
That is why I suggested to test dryness of coated alloys, by simply placing a couple into the oven and bake.
Then cool, and test with smash test, and if all is OK do the rest.
If it fails smash test, dry more. Simple.

[Rich22]

So here is an interesting question/issue. I am having approx 20% of batches fail. I am using the same oven with the same rack in the same amount with the same mixture with the same time to within 10 seconds on the same temp as monitored by two oven thermometers. All bullets have been dried for in excess of 10 days. Failure is never on the wipe test only on the smash test and then I am only barely able to tell because I smash the bullet inside something that is white and the coating is black. This is the first coat, mix is 5-1-7, 1/2 tsp of coating per 2.5 lbs of bullets, VERY light. Cooked at 400 for 12 min. Anyone have any ideas?

[HI-TEK]

That's ok, Joe, all advice is welcome, seeing that I'm new to all this (I have to say that I've learned a lot in the last few days because of this "issue").

"The coating process, should only take about 10 or so seconds, and, just barely until you get coverage". That's basically what I've been doing, using the quantities mentioned in the instructions. What I have noticed, however, is that the "Green" appears to be a little trickier to get an even coverage, compared to the Bronze (pretty easy) and the Zombie Green (seems easier to get thin coats). Maybe the Green needs thinning a little more?

Anyhow, I'm not going to spend any more time on it, I'll wait and see what the experts come up with.

Just had a thought, maybe I should put this up on ebay as a rare example of a Hi-Tek Dark Green powder - maybe call it British Racing Green:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:.


DIKMAN
As promised, I had the Gunmetal under question, tested from same batch as was supplied to you. Attached is result/picture of coated alloys, two coats baked at 200C.

It is a mystery why you had not been able to reproduce the same colour as retention material from same batch and as the photo attached?

Attached is also two new test colours as promised.
One was supposedly a Blue, close,159288159289159290 but not quite there with it.

[dikman]

Thanks Joe. It can be pretty difficult trying to match colours via photos and computer screens, the first one (blue) looks like a dark green to me, the gunmetal appears to be almost black with a hint of green and the last one looks like a metallic green (nice).

Yep, got me beat why they come out like they do. Two of us, independently getting the same result, from the same container, would indicate it has to be the material. I'll send you a PM.

[ioon44]

So here is an interesting question/issue. I am having approx 20% of batches fail. I am using the same oven with the same rack in the same amount with the same mixture with the same time to within 10 seconds on the same temp as monitored by two oven thermometers. All bullets have been dried for in excess of 10 days. Failure is never on the wipe test only on the smash test and then I am only barely able to tell because I smash the bullet inside something that is white and the coating is black. This is the first coat, mix is 5-1-7, 1/2 tsp of coating per 2.5 lbs of bullets, VERY light. Cooked at 400 for 12 min. Anyone have any ideas?

I guess the big question is how is the barrel after shooting them.
I have had some boolits with liquid Black that flaked a little on the smash test that worked fine in .45 Auto. I mixed the liquid at 5-1-10 and done 3 coats cooked at 400 for 12 min.
I like the Candy Apple Red powder a lot better.

[ioon44]

Ioon44
The suggestion about warming alloys before coating, came about from tests done that determined, that coating mixture, was able to chill alloys by as much as 5C whilst solvent is drying.
If the ambient is for example at 25C and alloy is chilled to 20C, then it stands to reason, that moisture may be absorbed & trapped below coating surface drying skin.
Once the skin formation is formed, the drying process is significantly reduced.
Coating may feel "dry", but exposure in oven will heat trapped vapors, and lift coating from alloy. The alloy is far cooler than the coating as coating also insulates alloy well.
When the coating is lifted from alloy by heated trapped vapors, results in poor adhesion, as coating being away from alloy will cure faster, but will not be stuck to the alloy well.
Compensating for temperature losses with warmer alloys will speed up drying rate and coating will be much more free from solvent and trapped moisture.
Alternatively, warm air drying is also useful such as produced by a hair dryer.
Excessive heat drying is not needed.
That is why I suggested to test dryness of coated alloys, by simply placing a couple into the oven and bake.
Then cool, and test with smash test, and if all is OK do the rest.
If it fails smash test, dry more. Simple.


Joe, thanks for the reply always good info, I will start placing a few boolits in the oven and testing to see where they pass the test.

My system now is to warm to about 30 C and coat, then place out side of the shop for about 1 hr, then put them in my warm air drying cabinet and heat for 1 hr to 40 C to 50 C depending on the ambient temp. I bake 12 to 24 hours later (200 C for 12 min) and have 100 percent success with this method.
So far the Candy Apple Red is my favorite with other colors working fine.

[Ausglock]

So here is an interesting question/issue. I am having approx 20% of batches fail. I am using the same oven with the same rack in the same amount with the same mixture with the same time to within 10 seconds on the same temp as monitored by two oven thermometers. All bullets have been dried for in excess of 10 days. Failure is never on the wipe test only on the smash test and then I am only barely able to tell because I smash the bullet inside something that is white and the coating is black. This is the first coat, mix is 5-1-7, 1/2 tsp of coating per 2.5 lbs of bullets, VERY light. Cooked at 400 for 12 min. Anyone have any ideas?

So the only other variable is the alloy. What is it?

[Rich22]

So the only other variable is the alloy. What is it?

100% COWW, all from the same batch that I smelted and cleaned myself so no real variable. I reduced cook time to 11 minutes and had two successful runs so far. For you few that have done this for years, is undercooking (too cool or short) consistent with failing the wipe test and overcooking consistent with failing the smash? That is how it was explained to me by Donnie a couple of years ago. Cannot wait until I have gone through the liquid and move to powder, mixing the powder has to be extremely simple by comparison.

[Southern Son]

Wipe test is for cooking (fail means not cooked long enough), smash test means you didn't let it dry long enough before cooking, I think that's it, anyway.

[HI-TEK]

Wipe test is for cooking (fail means not cooked long enough), smash test means you didn't let it dry long enough before cooking, I think that's it, anyway.

Right on, brief but very accurate.
Wipe test also is useful indicator to ensure that second or subsequent coats, do not simply strip off partially or non cured previous coats.
Smash test, (especially with first coat), should indicate strong bond onto alloy after correct drying and baking.
Smashing with no loss of coating usually is a good indicator of well bonded coating, and also is a good indicator of good practices by user for the coating process.

[Rich22]

Right on, brief but very accurate.
Wipe test also is useful indicator to ensure that second or subsequent coats, do not simply strip off partially or non cured previous coats.
Smash test, (especially with first coat), should indicate strong bond onto alloy after correct drying and baking.
Smashing with no loss of coating usually is a good indicator of well bonded coating, and also is a good indicator of good practices by user for the coating process.

Then if this is such I have a question that may indicate a procedure error on my part. I have had the smash test fail on a few batches that were dried on hw cloth indoors for in excess of a week. I had other batches that I did 100% the same process, coating (same coating batch) driee at the same time , pass without issue. I thought that the cause was likely my cooking wass too hot with a possible hot spot in my oven. I am now going to have to really look at my coating and drying procedures.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Rich22 "I thought that the cause was likely my cooking was too hot with a possible hot spot in my oven. I am now going to have to really look at my coating and drying procedures.[/QUOTE]

Rich22,
The coating was baked for 3 months at 200C, 8 hour days, 5 day week.
After this baking, the coating was black.
Passed smash test, and test showed accuracy with shooting, and no fouling.
From this, it was determined, that the final affect was colour change, and no bonding problems due to extended heating.
This test was re-done to confirm initial findings.
Re-testing again confirmed these details.

I refer back, some time ago, I posted an unusual finding.
I had a small leak in a bottle. The drips of coating, pooled on a concrete floor about 4 inch diameter and about 1/8 inch thick.
I figured, that I would allow it to dry, then pick it up as solids.
Good try, but after nearly 12 months, even though product on floor was touch dry with a dry skin, when trying to pick it up, it oozed out of my hands.
Inside the dry skin, the coating was still fluid and had not dried.

My comment is a long winded one, but I just wanted to share it to explain things about drying property of this coating.

[Capt. Russell]

Hi Joe, I've tried to email you but have not had a reply. Is there possibly a spam catcher or some reason my emails don't get through? I'm very keen to get hold of some of your product for .223 cast bullets.

[HI-TEK]

Hi Joe, I've tried to email you but have not had a reply. Is there possibly a spam catcher or some reason my emails don't get through? I'm very keen to get hold of some of your product for .223 cast bullets.

I sent back to you several emails.
To your home email and your work email.
I dont know what is going on, and why you are not getting my messages

[Avenger442]

Coating not being dry will cause flaky bullets in the smash test and heavy coating can extend the time it takes to dry them. That puddle, thick coat, after 12 months and still wet. I'm doing my best to only lightly coat with first coat for sure. Stain it not paint it. Can hardly tell they have coating on some of them at first coat until they are baked.

[HI-TEK]

"Stain it not paint it. Can hardly tell they have coating on some of them at first coat until they are baked."

Avenger442.
You are correct in all matters.
Most important is first coat bonding well to alloy.
First coat is not for making it pretty, and with many, the colour develops when baked.
Second coat, can be heavier, as it will bond to the first coat and produces a better finish.
Experience using coatings solves many problems on going.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Coated a couple hundred 429421 with 3 light coats and also a bunch of 358495 and 358156 with a first coat of red cooper today.

Gotta love this stuff! I can't wait to shoot the 44s!

[Ausglock]

Testing a few new powders. A nice metallic green a bit darker than Zombie green. Very similar to the liquid Kryptonite green.
Watch this space......:coffeecom

[Kjeksen87]

Hello fellas.
Tried Hi-Tek coating yesterday with good results. Passed wipe and smash between all coats etc. Looked good and nothing out of the ordinary.

BUT, first, color seemed a bit dark. Baked at 10mins at 200c. PID controlled convection oven. (Bronze 500) - should I lower temp to 190c and increase bake time?

Second, my first impression was that the coating was quite soft, and not as hard as expected. Cannot scratch off the coat with fingernail, but small operations like bullet seating was clearly setting marks on the bullet, and some lead was exposed. Cannot imagine what sizing would do.
Is this coating that vulnerable or is something in my process off? I had 3 thin coats, and followed the instructions that came with the powder exactly.


159920

[DerekP Houston]

Well, heres my review of what I tested.

I have the bronze 500 and the black color and used them on 380, 38 spec, and 45 acp. First coat I mixed too much powder and the batch came out gritty on the bullets but still shot fine with no leading. There was a bit more black residue in the barrel but no obvious leading or major fouling after ~100-200 rounds per gun. 2nd batch turned out much better same range results compared to powder coating for me. I posted a pic a little farther up of what they looked like after baking, I might still be cooking them a bit too long.

No PID yet, and standard range scrap lead that I've been using for all of them. None were anywhere near max loads, mid range bullseye powder charges. Test guns were model 10 s&w, bersa 380, and tisa 45. Same cleaning for all guns after the range, swab with frog lube solvent, scrub, 2 patches and we were back to looking brand new.

159929

None of them came out quite as perfect looking yet but the 2nd batch did come out better. Red one in the middle is HF red swirled with lacquer thinner and baked base side down. Resized them after baking left marks on the coating but did not appear to affect the functionality at all. Thanks I'll look forward to continue using this...seems like the 2 medium size jars I got will last a long time at this rate.

[Shotgundrums]

Hello fellas.
Tried Hi-Tek coating yesterday with good results. Passed wipe and smash between all coats etc. Looked good and nothing out of the ordinary.

BUT, first, color seemed a bit dark. Baked at 10mins at 200c. PID controlled convection oven. (Bronze 500) - should I lower temp to 190c and increase bake time?

Second, my first impression was that the coating was quite soft, and not as hard as expected. Cannot scratch off the coat with fingernail, but small operations like bullet seating was clearly setting marks on the bullet, and some lead was exposed. Cannot imagine what sizing would do.
Is this coating that vulnerable or is something in my process off? I had 3 thin coats, and followed the instructions that came with the powder exactly.


159920

You could try lowering temperature and slightly increase time. Should work fine. Just take notes. Your darker color results are going to come from set temperature coupled with dwell time in the oven. If your temp is true to the setting then your resultant color is just that. Also, if your mixed solution is older, this will give you darker shades as well. I have powdered candy apple red solution I've been trying to use up that is about 8 months old... So the color now versus new is a little darker. Still works perfect.

Your alloy/hardness is influential to the coating film's placement. If you're using relatively soft alloy, any rigors you put that alloy bullet through the coating will follow it.
Especially with sizing followed by seating.

First, how's your case flaring? If the bullet is riding against the case mouth edge by getting cocked or gets teetered during the seating, the brass will shave the coating off with alloy. If your coating bond is good (and from what you described, it is) then shaving the bullet doesn't just shave off coating. It's shaving alloy with bonded coating.

Second, softer alloys tend to flow easier and will impart a stretching of the coating thinly and more readily. After all, the bonded coating is flowing with the lead. This will show up as bare or thin spots on the bullet. Much more pronounced when sizing after the first coat. Also, seating a soft alloy bullet can often be undersized by the brass case.
So, in these instances you can imagine why many have barrel leading with softer coated alloys being pushed with higher pressure I.e. 9mm/40 sw etc...

The coatings aren't plate armor. They're not super hard plastic jacket. It's a slippery, lubricative film. It works great. But there is a checklist to ensure HiTek coatings deliver their designation. A good starting alloy is your common Hardball or Lyman #2. Many have successfully created their own alloy to meet their own needs. Cool.
***Be sure your bullet sizing tools' finishing surfaces are polished well and free of burrs or abrasive tooling textures. Those are sure to cause problems.***

PS. This coating will not fix leading issues caused by perverse gun dimensions. If there is a loose spot in your barrel, or the bullet does not seal the bore for X reasons lead fouling will still happen. The coating is not impervious to high temp/pressure gas cutting.

Good luck and welcome to the HiTek disease

SGD

[Ausglock]

What he said.......

[Kjeksen87]

You could try lowering temperature and slightly increase time. Should work fine. Just take notes. Your darker color results are going to come from set temperature coupled with dwell time in the oven. If your temp is true to the setting then your resultant color is just that. Also, if your mixed solution is older, this will give you darker shades as well. I have powdered candy apple red solution I've been trying to use up that is about 8 months old... So the color now versus new is a little darker. Still works perfect.

Brand new Hi-Tek just bought and mixed. I only put the bullets in the oven at set temperature (200c), and take the time from there. And as instructed with the papers 10 minutes should be enough. This is in a 3,65kW convection oven, PID controlled and monitored. I would think that the darker tone on the bullets would imply that they have atleast been hot enough and hot enough for too long? Or am i wrong?

As leading regards, I have not shot them yet. Nor loaded them. As in case belling, I would imagine that it would be simular to loading a pure lead projectile.

You are right that this is a softer alloy ( 10 - 12BHN ), I will mix up some harder alloy and try the coating with that.
I have heard that some do a double coat, then size them, and then do a final coat to get the bullets to look nice without bare lead spots. Is that really the case?

[Avenger442]

Hello fellas.
Tried Hi-Tek coating yesterday with good results. Passed wipe and smash between all coats etc. Looked good and nothing out of the ordinary.

BUT, first, color seemed a bit dark. Baked at 10mins at 200c. PID controlled convection oven. (Bronze 500) - should I lower temp to 190c and increase bake time?



One thing you might try is putting a cooking thermometer in the oven with your bullets. Usually, or at least on the two ovens I have put PID on, the sensor for the PID is not reading the temperature of the bullets. By putting the thermometer in the tray with the bullets you can adjust the PID up or down to get a correct temp. I run my bullets at 390 to 400 F. My PID is set at 385F to obtain that temp at the bullet. My cook time starts when my cooking thermometer hits 390F. This gives me a somewhat darker color but no failures when shooting. The color is not a big deal with me unless Joe comes up with some Orange and Blue. 10 min instead of 12 at 390 to 400 F will lighten them.

As far as I have been able to tell with my testing, over cooking will not make the bullets fail when tested or shot. But it will give you darker colors. Under cooking will give you a wipe test failure. If you have a wipe test failure just throw them back in the oven for a few min.

I have shot 10 BHN alloy hollow points with this coating in my .45. Loads were in the medium category but accurate at 15 yards. No leading.

I have to get back to the .45 one day. Got frustrated with bulged cases and another problem that was pulling the bullet out of the case if ejecting without firing round.

[Kjeksen87]

One thing you might try is putting a cooking thermometer in the oven with your bullets. Usually, or at least on the two ovens I have put PID on, the sensor for the PID is not reading the temperature of the bullets. By putting the thermometer in the tray with the bullets you can adjust the PID up or down to get a correct temp. I run my bullets at 390 to 400 F. My PID is set at 385F to obtain that temp at the bullet. My cook time starts when my cooking thermometer hits 390F. This gives me a somewhat darker color but no failures when shooting. The color is not a big deal with me unless Joe comes up with some Orange and Blue. 10 min instead of 12 at 390 to 400 F will lighten them.

As far as I have been able to tell with my testing, over cooking will not make the bullets fail when tested or shot. But it will give you darker colors. Under cooking will give you a wipe test failure. If you have a wipe test failure just throw them back in the oven for a few min.

I have shot 10 BHN alloy hollow points with this coating in my .45. Loads were in the medium category but accurate at 15 yards. No leading.

I have to get back to the .45 one day. Got frustrated with bulged cases and another problem that was pulling the bullet out of the case if ejecting without firing round.

Thank you for your input Avenger442. I was under the impression that over cooking the boolits would cause them to fail ( severe over cooking atleast )
Does anybody have pictures of their bronze500 bullets they would share?

[HI-TEK]

Thank you for your input Avenger442. I was under the impression that over cooking the boolits would cause them to fail ( severe over cooking atleast )
Does anybody have pictures of their bronze500 bullets they would share?

Attached is one I have. 159970
The colour can be darker, (more Tan), as some like to bake it a little longer.
This one is 2 coats, baked at 200C for 10 minutes.

[Shotgundrums]

Thank you for your input Avenger442. I was under the impression that over cooking the boolits would cause them to fail ( severe over cooking atleast )
Does anybody have pictures of their bronze500 bullets they would share?
159975
Your Bronze 500 looks like my Bronze 500. I'd say you're doing fine so far.

[dikman]

For what it's worth, I coated some pure lead boolits (5 BHN) as a test for lead splatter at the range. They passed both tests, wipe and smash, and were fired from my Winchester 44-40, as I figured the heavier load, in the longer barrel, would be a good test to see if the coating held up. Passed with flying colours, no leading or coloured flakes in the barrel.
So yes, it works well on soft boolits.

[HI-TEK]

For what it's worth, I coated some pure lead boolits (5 BHN) as a test for lead splatter at the range. They passed both tests, wipe and smash, and were fired from my Winchester 44-40, as I figured the heavier load, in the longer barrel, would be a good test to see if the coating held up. Passed with flying colours, no leading or coloured flakes in the barrel.
So yes, it works well on soft boolits.

dikman
Thank you for your post & results.
It seems, that you have mastered the coating process.
I am a little surprised with the results with using soft Lead, as previously, some had difficulties with using soft Lead.
It would be great , to get more information such as powder type & load, barrel size, sized diameter, distance shot, and accuracy.
If you have these, please post it, as many would be quite interested, as main aim by shooters, is to try to use cheaper metal alloy to make and cast, coat and use it, on as many applications as possible.

[Kjeksen87]

Attached is one I have. 159970
The colour can be darker, (more Tan), as some like to bake it a little longer.
This one is 2 coats, baked at 200C for 10 minutes.

This was the colour I was aiming for. I use Acetone btw, but that should not make the colour to get darker?
HI-TEK, Is it usual to size after 2 coats, and then do a beauty coat after sizing if you get bare lead spots after sizing?

Do anyone get bare lead spots after sizing?

[HI-TEK]

This was the colour I was aiming for. I use Acetone btw, but that should not make the colour to get darker?
HI-TEK, Is it usual to size after 2 coats, and then do a beauty coat after sizing if you get bare lead spots after sizing?

Do anyone get bare lead spots after sizing?

Great question.
1. Acetone or MEK.
These have no difference with final colour obtained.
2. Final colours
These are directly related to baking temperatures and lenght held inside oven after full cure.
3. Sizing matters
Usually, poor shaped or webbed casts can be coated once, dried well, then baked well, then sized, This will sort out deformities.
Then, application of second or third coats thereafter should cover any bare Lead produced after first coat is sized, and make final product pretty as well.
4. If coating is stripped off alloy during sizing first coat, dont bother about applying a second coat, as first coat is not correct, and has not bonded.
The non bonding of first coat must be resolved first, so it can be sized on first coat without coating coming off.
Most common cause of first coat failure, is application of too much/too thick first coat, coupled with not adequate drying, or combination of both.

[HI-TEK]

A Bronze 500 version as produced in Australia.
Note, this one is more "Tanned", than the other one posted previously.
This one, has been baked longer to produce the final colour as shown.
2 coats at about 18-20 minutes with final coat at 200C.
Note, this was done in an excellent oven condition where air was a cyclone inside oven during bake. It produced a very even colour distribution on all finished products.159985

[Kjeksen87]

Great question.
1. Acetone or MEK.
These have no difference with final colour obtained.
2. Final colours
These are directly related to baking temperatures and lenght held inside oven after full cure.
3. Sizing matters
Usually, poor shaped or webbed casts can be coated once, dried well, then baked well, then sized, This will sort out deformities.
Then, application of second or third coats thereafter should cover any bare Lead produced after first coat is sized, and make final product pretty as well.
4. If coating is stripped off alloy during sizing first coat, dont bother about applying a second coat, as first coat is not correct, and has not bonded.
The non bonding of first coat must be resolved first, so it can be sized on first coat without coating coming off.
Most common cause of first coat failure, is application of too much/too thick first coat, coupled with not adequate drying, or combination of both.

Follow up question at point 3: Will not sizing make the surface of the bullet to slick to get new coat to bond? Or atleast make the bonding worse or more difficult?

If you see my picture of my bullet, it has been in the oven for 10 mins at 200c and still get a very dark tan appear to it. I would very much like it to be lighter in appearance. So maybe in my oven wich is a 3,65kW convection oven, extra insulated and PID controlled. Maybe I should try shorter bake times to get lighter appearance?

[Kjeksen87]

A Bronze 500 version as produced in Australia.
Note, this one is more "Tanned", than the other one posted previously.
This one, has been baked longer to produce the final colour as shown.
2 coats at about 18-20 minutes with final coat at 200C.
Note, this was done in an excellent oven condition where air was a cyclone inside oven during bake. It produced a very even colour distribution on all finished products.159985


This looks pretty much as the same as I got at 10mins. (timed from the tray is inserted, and oven is at 200c op. temp when tray is inserted)

Can anyone share a photo with some Old Gold Hi-Tek colour?

[HI-TEK]

This looks pretty much as the same as I got at 10mins. (timed from the tray is inserted, and oven is at 200c op. temp when tray is inserted)

Can anyone share a photo with some Old Gold Hi-Tek colour?

Attached are a couple of Old Gold coated alloys


160035 160041

[HI-TEK]

Follow up question at point 3: Will not sizing make the surface of the bullet to slick to get new coat to bond? Or atleast make the bonding worse or more difficult?

If you see my picture of my bullet, it has been in the oven for 10 mins at 200c and still get a very dark tan appear to it. I would very much like it to be lighter in appearance. So maybe in my oven wich is a 3,65kW convection oven, extra insulated and PID controlled. Maybe I should try shorter bake times to get lighter appearance?

Kjeksen87
Regarding Question 3
First coat in majority coats 95% plus of surfaces. If sizing process does not remove coating, but exposes some Lead from rough surfaces, does not seem to interfere with additional coatings being applied. This process has been used with success when user has an old mold or not a good quality finish mold.

Regarding picture and Darkness, The first thing I suggest is to confirm actual temperatures inside oven. You may be surprised at large swings with temperatures, and, you may be cooking things at a much higher temperatures, which may be causing the darkening of the coating.
Some people actually cook coating longer to get the darkening. I suppose, final appearances are in the eye of the beholder. If coating is baked adequately, and is colour of choice, then all is good.

[Kjeksen87]

Kjeksen87
Regarding picture and Darkness, The first thing I suggest is to confirm actual temperatures inside oven. You may be surprised at large swings with temperatures, and, you may be cooking things at a much higher temperatures, which may be causing the darkening of the coating.
Some people actually cook coating longer to get the darkening. I suppose, final appearances are in the eye of the beholder. If coating is baked adequately, and is colour of choice, then all is good.

Thank for the picture HI-TEK, the old gold at least the picture to the right seems pretty awesome!

As for the temp inside the oven, I run PID controlled and monitored temps with type K thermocouple. I have full control over the temps inside oven. There is also a fan that circulates the air constand.

[Kjeksen87]

Kjeksen87
Regarding Question 3
First coat in majority coats 95% plus of surfaces. If sizing process does not remove coating, but exposes some Lead from rough surfaces, does not seem to interfere with additional coatings being applied. This process has been used with success when user has an old mold or not a good quality finish mold.
.

Okei, good. Certainly reassuring :)
How much have you measured that Hi-Tek adds to the diameter of the bullet?

[HI-TEK]

Okei, good. Certainly reassuring :)
How much have you measured that Hi-Tek adds to the diameter of the bullet?

Good question.
It is like how long is a piece of string without a measuring tape. lol lol
Coating thickness will greatly depend on users application of coating.
Generally, a thin stain type first coat, will hardly be able to be measured.
The best way to determine coating thickness is to measure some of your cast alloys,, coat, dry and bake them
Then re-measure diameters.
My concerns are, if you have a rough finished cast, it will be difficult to determine accurately the diameters, until you coat with one coat, then size.
After sizing first coated alloy, (determine actual diameter at that time), then re-coat, dry and bake. Then you can determine exact build up diameter caused by the coating you are using.

[Kjeksen87]

Good question.
It is like how long is a piece of string without a measuring tape. lol lol
Coating thickness will greatly depend on users application of coating.
Generally, a thin stain type first coat, will hardly be able to be measured.
The best way to determine coating thickness is to measure some of your cast alloys,, coat, dry and bake them
Then re-measure diameters.
My concerns are, if you have a rough finished cast, it will be difficult to determine accurately the diameters, until you coat with one coat, then size.
After sizing first coated alloy, (determine actual diameter at that time), then re-coat, dry and bake. Then you can determine exact build up diameter caused by the coating you are using.

Okei, I was hoping that you would have a rough estimate on how much properly addded coating as pr. instructions would add to the total of the bullet. I ofcourse understand that coating thickness would vary depending on user application.

[slide]

I do two coats with coating mixed per instructions and see about .002.

[Kjeksen87]

Shot 100 bullets with 3.9 grains of N320. Weight is 126 grains on the bullets. (LEE RN-2 model) BHN of 11. Got severe leading at the end of the barrel.
Size of barrel is .355, size of bullet was .357" ( .002" oversize ). Chronoed to 1000 fps through my Sig Sauer X5.

Is .002" to much for the Hi-Tek? Should I stay closer to .001" ?
BHN is on the soft side. Will make harder alloy, this was for testing puropse only.

This is consistent with the same problems others have had earlier in this thread regarding to soft alloy. But there is always someone who can shoot
softer alloys with no problems what so ever for some reason.

Picked up a bullet in the snow.

160104

[HI-TEK]

Shot 100 bullets with 3.9 grains of N320. Weight is 126 grains on the bullets. (LEE RN-2 model) BHN of 11. Got severe leading at the end of the barrel.
Size of barrel is .355, size of bullet was .357" ( .002" oversize ). Chronoed to 1000 fps through my Sig Sauer X5.

Is .002" to much for the Hi-Tek? Should I stay closer to .001" ?
BHN is on the soft side. Will make harder alloy, this was for testing puropse only.

This is consistent with the same problems others have had earlier in this thread regarding to soft alloy. But there is always someone who can shoot
softer alloys with no problems what so ever for some reason.

Picked up a bullet in the snow.

160104


Unfortunately, from looking at coating left on alloy, the coating was not stuck correctly as it seemed to be coming off in sheets..
My initial guess is, that there was a drying problem with first coat, and baked, when not completely dry. Coating will cure, but not bonded to alloy if not dry before baking.
That seems most likely cause at this stage.
Coating, shot into sand and projectile recovered, the coating remained on alloy.

[Kjeksen87]

Unfortunately, from looking at coating left on alloy, the coating was not stuck correctly as it seemed to be coming off in sheets..
My initial guess is, that there was a drying problem with first coat, and baked, when not completely dry. Coating will cure, but not bonded to alloy if not dry before baking.
That seems most likely cause at this stage.
Coating, shot into sand and projectile recovered, the coating remained on alloy.

That might be, but it passed through smash and wipe with every coat.

I also pulled a bullet on a loaded round to check if the coating was damaged under loading process, but no. Bullet was looking as if it was never loaded.

[robertbank]

Shot 100 bullets with 3.9 grains of N320. Weight is 126 grains on the bullets. (LEE RN-2 model) BHN of 11. Got severe leading at the end of the barrel.
Size of barrel is .355, size of bullet was .357" ( .002" oversize ). Chronoed to 1000 fps through my Sig Sauer X5.

Is .002" to much for the Hi-Tek? Should I stay closer to .001" ?
BHN is on the soft side. Will make harder alloy, this was for testing puropse only.

This is consistent with the same problems others have had earlier in this thread regarding to soft alloy. But there is always someone who can shoot
softer alloys with no problems what so ever for some reason.

Picked up a bullet in the snow.

160104

The problem with the 9MM and 40cal is they are high pressure rounds. They may require harder alloy. The process does anneal the bullets somewhat. Starting with a harder alloy than I have likely leaves you with a harder alloy after the two or three bakes.

I have tried every suggestion offered up and still get leading using 9MM. I applied gas checks to the base of the bullets and reduced the leading almost completely. I came to this conclusion after mixing 38 spl bullets in with a batch of 9MM bullets. The 38spl bullets left no leading in my GP-100 or 686 when shot from 38spl cases. The 9MM bullets from the same batch leaded up my guns.

I have sized the 9MM bullets .356 - severe leading, and .357 - slightly less but still severe leading. I should also add I get no leading from .45acp or 45 Colt bullets, both cartridges are low pressure rounds.

As a matter of interest I have a recovered 9MM bullet from two days ago that looks exactly like the bullet you are holding. Easy to do when you are shooting into snow.

I have much better results using powder coating than I have with the Hi-Tek to date. That said I am not done yet. One more try this spring. I know the product works using harder lead than I use in 9MM BUT if it is going to be used by me it is going to have to work using the alloy I have.

Reducing the sizing of your bullets to .356 will not help. Look elsewhere for a solution.

Take Care

Bob

[Kjeksen87]

The problem with the 9MM and 40cal is they are high pressure rounds. They may require harder alloy. The process does anneal the bullets somewhat. Starting with a harder alloy than I have likely leaves you with a harder alloy after the two or three bakes.

I have tried every suggestion offered up and still get leading using 9MM. I applied gas checks to the base of the bullets and reduced the leading almost completely. I came to this conclusion after mixing 38 spl bullets in with a batch of 9MM bullets. The 38spl bullets left no leading in my GP-100 or 686 when shot from 38spl cases. The 9MM bullets from the same batch leaded up my guns.

I have sized the 9MM bullets .356 - severe leading, and .357 - slightly less but still severe leading. I should also add I get no leading from .45acp or 45 Colt bullets, both cartridges are low pressure rounds.

As a matter of interest I have a recovered 9MM bullet from two days ago that looks exactly like the bullet you are holding. Easy to do when you are shooting into snow.

I have much better results using powder coating than I have with the Hi-Tek to date. That said I am not done yet. One more try this spring. I know the product works using harder lead than I use in 9MM BUT if it is going to be used by me it is going to have to work using the alloy I have.

Reducing the sizing of your bullets to .356 will not help. Look elsewhere for a solution.

Take Care

Bob


Yes both 9mm and .40 are high pressure rounds, but lets keep in mind that this coating has been used in Austrailia for decades. Very popular in shooting IPSC and simular. I find it very hard to believe that this coating has been so popular if it did not hold up to be used in especially 9mm as it is one of the most, if not THE most common caliber used in IPSC.

My thought regarding to size down to .356 was to lessen the friction. I shot .357" sized bullets in the test, and my barrel measures at .355".

Furthermore I will ofcourse harden the lead alloy. I see companies selling Hi-Tek bullets to 9mm from 15 - 18BHN. I do also believe that these companies would not offer bullets that lead with soft to medium loads - as it would not be good for buisness.

I will also coat one more batch to rule out insufficient bonding of the coating to the lead. Although my previous batch did pass all the tests for all the coats.

As I have read and researched this thread mostly, I am under the impression that BHN according to velocity and pressure is just as important as with traditional lubed bullets.

I would also like to add that my BHN measurment was done after baking - because of the annealing of the Lead.

[robertbank]

If you don't use a harder alloy I doubt much will change. I also believe commercial castors have a much better chance at controlling their production using commercial ovens etc. The process is not all that complicated. Regular lube works, Powder coating has worked for me. If I can get Hi Tek to work great. If I can't using the alloy and equipment I own then I have other options. The product does work and the Commercial producers have a great product.

My 9MM guns have .355 barrels and I size all my bullets .357. I tried .356 using WW alloy and get less than stellar accuracy. Since switching to .357 a few years ago I get no leading using regular lube in 9MM or Powder Coating. I load around 20K of bullets a year now so it would be nice if I could get this process to work. It is on me not the product as I know others have no problem with it using their alloy.

Good Luck

Bob

[DerekP Houston]

Success! *much* larger batch than before....~ 5-7lbs of boolits at a time in a large halloween candy bowl. After this size bulk done in 3 batches I don't think I will go back to powder coating. Coating is smooth to the touch, no rough spots and nothing marked during sizing. 3 light coats and baked @ 12 mins. No standing things up or messing with tweezers; just shook in a large batch with light coating until dry and baked.

The black is so reflective it looks clear in the photo. Posted for documenting progress if nothing else. Both passed acetone/smash test, the black one is still in the picture on the tray.


160116

160117

160118

[slide]

Kjeksen87, as with everything when things go wrong go back to the basics. I know you said you have a pid on your oven. I would start there. This is not my idea but another smart guy on this forum suggested getting a multi-meter from wal-mart. Make sure is measures high temp. I don't know where you are, you may not have a wal-mart but I bet you can find a multi-meter. I tried those oven thermometers and they are not dependable. Let your mix set for about an hour before you use it and shake it quite a bit during that hour. Drying is cricital. I always put a fan on my coated bullets and generally dry them 30 minutes or so. Then they go on top of the pre heated oven for ten minutes before going into the oven. Most of the time I will not get to the 200 c during the first six minutes of the bake(bullets have to warm up) I shake the tray real good at six minutes and then on the last six minutes I will hit the 200c. It doesn't have to be 200c the entire baking period. Bullets are taken out at twelve minutes,allowed to cool and checked(swipe test and hammer test.) If they pass then the second coat, same process. I have had real good luck with this method,but, I had a lot of help. This is generally with around 200 to 250 bullets.

[Kjeksen87]

Kjeksen87, as with everything when things go wrong go back to the basics. I know you said you have a pid on your oven. I would start there. This is not my idea but another smart guy on this forum suggested getting a multi-meter from wal-mart. Make sure is measures high temp. I don't know where you are, you may not have a wal-mart but I bet you can find a multi-meter. I tried those oven thermometers and they are not dependable. Let your mix set for about an hour before you use it and shake it quite a bit during that hour. Drying is cricital. I always put a fan on my coated bullets and generally dry them 30 minutes or so. Then they go on top of the pre heated oven for ten minutes before going into the oven. Most of the time I will not get to the 200 c during the first six minutes of the bake(bullets have to warm up) I shake the tray real good at six minutes and then on the last six minutes I will hit the 200c. It doesn't have to be 200c the entire baking period. Bullets are taken out at twelve minutes,allowed to cool and checked(swipe test and hammer test.) If they pass then the second coat, same process. I have had real good luck with this method,but, I had a lot of help. This is generally with around 200 to 250 bullets.

Using a Type K thermocouple mated with the PID no error readings here.
Bullets where dried at 30c inside a convection oven with fan running at full juice. ( 35 minutes ) Should be nice and dry by now.
Oven at 200c for 10 minutes. Timing starting when the oven reached 200c with the lead inside. Darken colour indicates long enough baking time aswell.
Coating mixed as instructed 1:5, also left for an hour before applied.
First coat applied thin. Bullets passed wipe AND crush test after every coat.
Oven is a full size modern kitchen oven 3,65kW PID controlled and not oven thermostat regulated.
Extra insulated in every possible way to prevent heat loss. It is Customized for this exact purpose.

I do not really see or understand what might possibly went the wrong way during application.

But, I have casted a new batch of harder alloy for 9mm (18BHN) Wich I will try.

[Kjeksen87]

Did a smash test on the base coat (1st coat) Pass? Yey or ney :)

160154

This was on 15 mins on 190c. ( timed from when the oven was at set temp )

No problems at wipe test. Dried for 45 mins inside a convection oven set to 30c.

[dikman]

Robertbank, it's quite surprising, when reading other parts of this forum (and elsewhere) how 9mm seem to be a bit of a problem.

As for my data (although I'm not sure how much help it will be) -
Pure lead (5BHN) 208 gn RFN .44-40, resized to .429, 5.5 gns TrailBoss.
Fired from a Winchester Model 92 (made in 1911), 24" barrel.

I fired the last of them yesterday, no leading or traces of coating in the barrel. If they can survive traversing the longer barrel then there shouldn't be any problems in shorter pistol barrels. The reason I used pure lead is to test for lead splatter - we shoot at steel plates at between 7-10 metres, and the usual harder boolits make a very nasty hail of fine pieces of lead. The theory was that the softer lead should compress more on impact and hold together better - nice theory, in practice it didn't make much difference, so I'll stick with harder lead (12-15 BHN) and use the pure for my muzzleloaders.

For the record, I've only been doing small batches, in order to learn how this stuff, and my equipment, works. The ONLY real failure I've had was in my first batch, when I put some on the top shelf directly under the heating element. Not a good idea as not surprisingly they over-cooked! Other than that, they've all worked, some not too pretty too look at, perhaps (just a matter of refining my techniques) but all are fully-functional coatings. For the most part there appears to be a bit of leeway in the process which allows for "user variations", shall we say.

One things for sure, there's no way I'm going back to wax lubing!

[robertbank]

dikman your 44-40 is a low pressure cartridge. The 9MM is a high pressure cartridge. Re-read my recent post. If you were loading 9mm and shoot about 10K -10K rds. per year I suspect you would either try to make it work with your alloy or move on. I use HI Tek in 38spl with good results.

Bob

[Ausglock]

Kjeksen87 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?43287-Kjeksen87)

Drill a hole in the bum of a bullet and insert a K sensor in it. This will show the alloy temp. It MUST reach 185DegC and hold it for at least 3 minutes for the coating to fully cure.
Ignore the oven compartment temp.

I did this the other day with my setup.
I drilled a 135gn RN bullet and inserted the sensor.
Oven void temp (empty) reached 230deg C before the thermostat cycled off.
Inserted the tray of 2KG of bullets.
At the 6 minute mark, void temp was 200 Deg C Bullet temp was 200Deg C.
Tray removed for shaking and re-inserted to oven.
Oven void temp dropped to 120Deg C.
Bullet temp remained at 200Deg C.
At the 12 minute mark, Oven void temp was 210 Deg C.
Bullet temp was 210Deg C.
This was with 2nd coat of Black.
I think your alloy is too soft.
I run Hardball alloy 2,6,92 16BHN.
Produce 100,000's for 9mm, 38 Super. Sized from .356 to 358. Zero leading from any user.
I run range scrap in my 45 bullets. around 10 to 12 BHN no issues.

[Kjeksen87]

Kjeksen87 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?43287-Kjeksen87)

Drill a hole in the bum of a bullet and insert a K sensor in it. This will show the alloy temp. It MUST reach 185DegC and hold it for at least 3 minutes for the coating to fully cure.
Ignore the oven compartment temp.

I did this the other day with my setup.
I drilled a 135gn RN bullet and inserted the sensor.
Oven void temp (empty) reached 230deg C before the thermostat cycled off.
Inserted the tray of 2KG of bullets.
At the 6 minute mark, void temp was 200 Deg C Bullet temp was 200Deg C.
Tray removed for shaking and re-inserted to oven.
Oven void temp dropped to 120Deg C.
Bullet temp remained at 200Deg C.
At the 12 minute mark, Oven void temp was 210 Deg C.
Bullet temp was 210Deg C.
This was with 2nd coat of Black.
I think your alloy is too soft.
I run Hardball alloy 2,6,92 16BHN.
Produce 100,000's for 9mm, 38 Super. Sized from .356 to 358. Zero leading from any user.
I run range scrap in my 45 bullets. around 10 to 12 BHN no issues.


Thank you Ausglock for your input. The lead temp, drilling, bum idea is very good indeed, and I might just "borrow" that one :)
It is encouraging that you have had no issues. Will continue testing. As of now I have casted and coated 18BHN bullets and sized them to .357

When do you size Ausglock? After coat 1? Coat 2? Do you add a coat after size?

Smash test after coat 2. Pass imo. (coat 1 to the left, coat 2 to the right)
160169

[Ausglock]

2 coats then size for bevel base bullets.
Flat base bullets get 1 coat, size, then the 2nd coat.

I size to suit the bore. for 9mm normally .357

When I'm testing new experimental coatings for HITEK, any that are a horrible colour get 2 extra coats of black on them. So I have 135gn RNBB bullets with 4 coats. these get sized as per normal.
This is 4 coats, all baked at 200Deg C for 12 minutes. all pass wipe and smash tests.

[dikman]

My apologies, robertbank, I'm aware that I'm using low pressure loads compared to 9mm, I forgot to mention it (but that's why I said I wasn't sure what use my data would be). From what I've read I gather 9mm is at the high end, pressure-wise, for pistol rounds? (I only shoot single action/black powder, a lot different to the other disciplines). I merely posted it, as I said previously, for what it's worth. I have no idea, of course, at what point using pure lead would become an issue. Mine were clocked at around 800 fps, if that's of any use, and make a very satisfying whack! when they hit the plate (I really like the .44-40 :-)).

[slide]

dikman, My apologies that you got talked to like that. A mate tries to help and gets some smart*** remark. Seems to be more and more prevalent. Keep on brother!

[Kjeksen87]

Well. Tested again with the Sig Sauer X5 (9mm). All test passed as seen in photos.
Severely leading with 3,9grs N320. COL 1.140".

Is there any difference in the powder version compared to the liquid one that is significant?
Does MEK provide better bonding instead of Acetone? (I used pure industrial Acetone)

[slide]

I have only used the powder. Most I have heard say the powder is easier to work with and the shipping rates are better than the liquid. As far as what they do I don't think there is any difference. Were you able to try a different alloy like Ausglock suggested? I have used mek and acetone and like the mek better because it won't evaporate as quick as acetone. I notice on one of your earlier posts you wait until the temp hits 200c before you start your time. You might try starting your time when the bullets are put in. You may have already tried this but if you haven't it is worth a shot. I tried starting the time when oven hit 200c,didn't work for me. How many bullets are you doing at a time. Ausglock says smaller batches have a high failure rate. Maybe he will be along shortly.

[Kjeksen87]

I have only used the powder. Most I have heard say the powder is easier to work with and the shipping rates are better than the liquid. As far as what they do I don't think there is any difference. Were you able to try a different alloy like Ausglock suggested? I have used mek and acetone and like the mek better because it won't evaporate as quick as acetone. I notice on one of your earlier posts you wait until the temp hits 200c before you start your time. You might try starting your time when the bullets are put in. You may have already tried this but if you haven't it is worth a shot. I tried starting the time when oven hit 200c,didn't work for me. How many bullets are you doing at a time. Ausglock says smaller batches have a high failure rate. Maybe he will be along shortly.

Yes tried BHN 18 Alloy this time. 3 coats. All passed tests. This time I used longer bake times. 190c for 15 min. Also let the bullets heat up with the oven. Baking should not be the issue as it passed test.

Do about 3-400 at a time now at the beginning. Although my oven should handle much much more.

I wonder since the sucess rate is so high in Australia and seems to be somewhat different other places if there is a difference in the liquid and powder form

Now I have also measured with a micrometer the bullet after sizing + 1 coat and it measured at: .3572" So pretty spot on as far as aiming for .357". Just plain sizing without coat puts me at .3565", (.357" sizin die) So a tad to low. But last measure dont matter since I have a coat after sizing aswell.

Barrel slugs at: .3559"

Bullets are by the measurments: .0013" overdim. Should be a awesome match!?

[slide]

I don't think so. There is a learning curve to this stuff. I screwed up several batches before I started getting the hang of it. Hang in the there and you will get it,stand by I am going to send you a pm.

[robertbank]

My apologies, robertbank, I'm aware that I'm using low pressure loads compared to 9mm, I forgot to mention it (but that's why I said I wasn't sure what use my data would be). From what I've read I gather 9mm is at the high end, pressure-wise, for pistol rounds? (I only shoot single action/black powder, a lot different to the other disciplines). I merely posted it, as I said previously, for what it's worth. I have no idea, of course, at what point using pure lead would become an issue. Mine were clocked at around 800 fps, if that's of any use, and make a very satisfying whack! when they hit the plate (I really like the .44-40 :-)).

No worries here. Not sure what slide is referring to nothing smart *** about my reply. I also found the low pressure rounds like the 45 Colt work well with WW alloy. Leading and pressure/alloy combinations go hand in hand. If I had better hardness testing equipment I would pursue it but I don't. I was going to chase down so harder alloy or play around with adding copper to my alloy but for me it becomes cost and time prohibitive. If you shoot high volume and still want to cast your own you have to balance off the benefits vs the costs. Right now I am on the fence. For me the biggest advantage this product has over regular lube is the reduction of smoke and to a lessor extent fouling. We shall see what the spring brings because I really want this product to work with my alloy in 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[Kjeksen87]

What is the recomended overdim for the bullets? I have read several places that overdimming bullets by .002" might increase friction and load on coating and it will fail.

[Avenger442]

I shoot high pressure loads with this coating in 44 magnum no gas check 12 BHN lead, .308 16 BHN and .223 21 BHN with no leading. These were in some cases one grain from max load. I have zero experience casting and loading for 9mm. But I would think the pressures in my guns are exceeding the 9mm in most of my loads.

Have used both powder and liquid systems and found no difference in my guns.

It will work and has for me for about two years. Haven't used anything else. It has worked so well that I am reconsidering looking into HF powder coat. Not that I think it can't be good and wouldn't work for me, too. Just got to looking at black powder and it is consuming that time. I think I'll try some HiTeked black powder bullets. Has anyone tried that yet?

[Kjeksen87]

Avenger442, can you tell us more about your procedure? Cause I find it odd you can shoot near max .44 mag loads with that low BHN with Hi-Tek, and many with 9mm struggles with light to moderate loads.

Can you post a picture of a retrieved bullet?

What powder are you using?

MEK or Acetone?

[PAT303]

Did a smash test on the base coat (1st coat) Pass? Yey or ney :)

160154

This was on 15 mins on 190c. ( timed from when the oven was at set temp )

No problems at wipe test. Dried for 45 mins inside a convection oven set to 30c.
Mine look like that after the first coat. Pat

[Ausglock]

I bake 2kg of bullets per tray. this is roughly 250 9mm bullets.
There is no difference in baking or application between liquid or powder.
I use MEK for testing, but use 100%Acetone (UN No.1090) for production.
If the acetone is flashing off too fast, use 20% Metho to 80% acetone in your mix. this slows down the flash off in higher temp/ low humidity times and areas.

I size 1 thou over bore. but have loaded .358 bullets in 38 Super through a .355 barrel with zero leading.

[Avenger442]

Avenger442, can you tell us more about your procedure? Cause I find it odd you can shoot near max .44 mag loads with that low BHN with Hi-Tek, and many with 9mm struggles with light to moderate loads.

Can you post a picture of a retrieved bullet?

What powder are you using?

MEK or Acetone?

Sure.

Only thing I can't give you is a photo of a retrieved bullet. I shoot on a public range about an hour from my house into a dirt back stop. While I have had a chance to look I have not found any of my rifle or handgun bullets among the thousands. Can't look very much because all benches are usually busy when I go. Almost can't get your target out there.

Cast all my bullets and check BHN at 14 days after casting and 14 days after coating. Alloy for the 12 BHN is 98% COWW with 2% tin. Mold is Lee TL 430-240 SWC, no gas check. My bullets run about 237 average.

Coat about three pounds per batch. Coating mixture is per instructions with the liquid 1035 Gold mixed per instruction 5 parts color to 1 part catalyst 5 parts acetone. I'm not very careful with the acetone but it is about 5 parts. Dispense the liquid from a clear ketchup dispenser like you see in restaurants. I used to measure the amount but have forgotten how much. Now I just give them a squirt about 2 to 3 seconds. One thing that I do that is not especially recommended is tumble the bullets in a closed Cool Whip tub. First coat is thin. With the Gold on some of them it is hard to tell if they are completely coated (stained). They are allowed to dry about 12 to 24 hours depending on when I get back to them. Don't get in a hurry on this step. First coat must be completely dry before bake. I coated too thick and tried to rush drying on some 45s and they failed on me. came off all the way down to lead in big flakes. Bake them 12 minutes at 390-400 F. Bake time starts when bullets in tray reach 390 as measured by a cooking thermometer 160254 This is not the exact one I use but will give you an idea. After baking cool and second coat, dry (this time on top of the oven for about 30-45 min with fan blowing on them) and bake the same heat and time. Size then third coat like second. I got used to using three with my rifle bullets so just carried it over to hand gun. My bullets will be darker than the colors Ausglock and Joe show you. But have seen success with good colors from others. 160256 These are my 1035 Gold.

Went back to my load log and the last time I shot the 44mag was out of my Ruger Redhawk 5.5 inch barrel. Above bullet 237 grain. Load was 12 and 13 grains H-800X my book says 13.4 max load, CCI 300, in Remington cases. No leading. Accuracy was best with the 12 grains at 15 yards. I have also shot the same bullet same coating process with a Winchester 1894 16" barrel iron sights at 50 yards. Powder was IMR 4227. Five loads between 21.6 and 23.5 grains. My book shows 24 grains max load. No leading. Accuracy was not stellar. But I was shooting off hand. Got a Lead Sled soon after that to help mitigate my shooting.

The only time I had any leading in a barrel with Hi Tek was with my .308 rifle pushing a 160 grain bullet with no gas check 12 BHN 42 grains of H 4895. If you push the lead too hard the Hi Tek will not protect it. Just like any other lube. I have heard, but not tried, the HF powder coating can take more pressure. But why? I can get 1 1/2" groups with less than max loads in my .308 and .223 at 100 yards. Which was my original goal to beat performance of the over the counter ammo I was hunting with.

Will answer questions if I missed something.

[Kjeksen87]

Sure.

Only thing I can't give you is a photo of a retrieved bullet. I shoot on a public range about an hour from my house into a dirt back stop. While I have had a chance to look I have not found any of my rifle or handgun bullets among the thousands. Can't look very much because all benches are usually busy when I go. Almost can't get your target out there.

Cast all my bullets and check BHN at 14 days after casting and 14 days after coating. Alloy for the 12 BHN is 98% COWW with 2% tin.

Coating process is per instructions with the liquid 1035 Gold mixed per instruction

How much oversize do you run with your Hi-Tek bullets?

[Ausglock]

FYI..
How is the throating in of your barrel?
I has a Para 45ACP lead badly until I throated the barrel. It now has zero leading with the exact same bullets.

[Avenger442]

How much oversize do you run with your Hi-Tek bullets?

Can't really answer your question. I have not slugged the barrels of the Ruger or the Winchester. Bullets are sized at .430.

[dikman]

Avenger, if you're talking about patched round ball muzzleloaders, there's no point coating them (other than to make them look pretty, which is why I did some for my cap and ball revolver :grin:). If you shoot Minie balls, however, then it might be an interesting experiment, although if you do away with the normal wax lube you'll create more problems as the lube is also used to keep the BP fouling manageable.

[Avenger442]

Avenger, if you're talking about patched round ball muzzleloaders, there's no point coating them (other than to make them look pretty, which is why I did some for my cap and ball revolver :grin:). If you shoot Minie balls, however, then it might be an interesting experiment, although if you do away with the normal wax lube you'll create more problems as the lube is also used to keep the BP fouling manageable.

I was actually thinking of loading some cartridges with black powder for the 44 and 45 Colt.

But I do have a couple of muzzle loaders that I bought as a deal years ago for something I wanted. A .50 Hawken and a .45 that I don't remember what brand along with some Elephant powder. I've never shot them.

Thanks for the input.

[dikman]

To some extent the same issue with lubing applies to revolvers and BP, but it's nowhere near as bad as a long barrel. I've shot BP from my .357 Uberti's (before I got into coating) and intend doing it again with coated boolits. Very satisfying and lots of smoke :grin:.

Guns as they were meant to be shot!

[ioon44]

FYI..
How is the throating in of your barrel?
I has a Para 45ACP lead badly until I throated the barrel. It now has zero leading with the exact same bullets.

Ausglock, you make a really good point here, any one that is having problems shooting Hi-Tek coated boolits should be looking closely at the condition of there barrels. The coating seem to work great for 99% of the shooters the other 1% may have a barrel issue or reloading issue.

I have seen some new barrels that were full of machine chatter marks or just over size rough barrels. I have had to have a few barrels replaced be the gun manufacture's customer service.

[Kjeksen87]

Ausglock, you make a really good point here, any one that is having problems shooting Hi-Tek coated boolits should be looking closely at the condition of there barrels. The coating seem to work great for 99% of the shooters the other 1% may have a barrel issue or reloading issue.

I have seen some new barrels that were full of machine chatter marks or just over size rough barrels. I have had to have a few barrels replaced be the gun manufacture's customer service.

Quite radical statement that 99% have no problems and 1% do. Though I do agree that leading using Hi-Tek isn`t necessary Hi-Tek that fails.

Throating through my Sig from what I can tell, looks Ok.

[dikman]

ioon, I started having reloading issues with my Win '92 (.44-40) after I started coating, the cartridges weren't sliding easily into the chamber. Occasionally some would, but in general they were tight. I'd stripped and cleaned all the dies to get the wax out, so figured I had an adjustment problem. After much tinkering with the dies (unsuccessfully) I finally put a micrometer on the boolits, and that was the problem. Although I was re-sizing after the first coat, the second coat was thick enough to affect the feeding (we're talking .001 here). Re-sizing after the second coat fixed it. I must admit I was surprised that it could make that much difference (they worked ok in my Win '94, however.).

Now I re-size them after each coat, slightly annoying but so be it.

Incidentally, I've been doing a few more batches while the weather is hot ('cos they dry real quick in the sun!) and within reason this stuff appears to be reasonably forgiving if there's slight variations in the process (still no failures). The biggest problem I'm having is learning how to get that first coat nice and thin, but the more I do the better I'm getting. Also, thinking about it, I doubt if there's any great time saving between this and wax coating, but the end result is far better, with no wax build-up in the dies causing seating issues or wax getting on the fingers.

[Avenger442]

160444

160445

Bayou Bullets/ Hi-Tek got a plug in an article in Handloader's Digest

[Kjeksen87]

Kjekson - leading at the muzzle indicates you need a harder alloy. I use isocore in 9 with 3 coats of green, apply 3rd coat heavy, then size. I use W231 or WST. The coating is lightly abraded going down the barrel - coating gets thin and soft lead allows slight stripping. I have the gold, tried it in 300BO & 308W (full power loads) with poor results due to soft alloy. No leading, no accuracy.

No soft alloy here. BHN 15-16

[slide]

There are a couple of videos on Hi-Tek on youtube. Have you checked those out?

[Kjeksen87]

There are a couple of videos on Hi-Tek on youtube. Have you checked those out?

Seen em`all.

Next step is to test in another gun and see the results.

Could be something in the Sig barrel that just doesnt make it go so well.
Although nothing unusual appears when slugging.

[ioon44]

ioon, I started having reloading issues with my Win '92 (.44-40) after I started coating, the cartridges weren't sliding easily into the chamber. Occasionally some would, but in general they were tight. I'd stripped and cleaned all the dies to get the wax out, so figured I had an adjustment problem. After much tinkering with the dies (unsuccessfully) I finally put a micrometer on the boolits, and that was the problem. Although I was re-sizing after the first coat, the second coat was thick enough to affect the feeding (we're talking .001 here). Re-sizing after the second coat fixed it. I must admit I was surprised that it could make that much difference (they worked ok in my Win '94, however.).

Now I re-size them after each coat, slightly annoying but so be it.

Incidentally, I've been doing a few more batches while the weather is hot ('cos they dry real quick in the sun!) and within reason this stuff appears to be reasonably forgiving if there's slight variations in the process (still no failures). The biggest problem I'm having is learning how to get that first coat nice and thin, but the more I do the better I'm getting. Also, thinking about it, I doubt if there's any great time saving between this and wax coating, but the end result is far better, with no wax build-up in the dies causing seating issues or wax getting on the fingers.

I have one old ( 1980's) 200 gr .45 mold that leaves ridges at the mold line so I size these boolits after the first coat and after the last coat.

I have a learning curve every time the ambient temp makes a big change, right now I am waiting for the ambient temp to get above 0 deg C to do some coating.

I have been using 125 ml/20 gram mix for the 1st coat to get a even and thin 1st coat, this has been working. I don't ever see me going back to wax lube.

[Kjeksen87]

Missed that you changed to 18 from 11 BHN. I was using H.T. isocore in light loads but found 2 light coats of green with a third heavy coat lets me use AC isocore (with Cu added, ~10). I assume you have loaded dummy rounds that pass the plunk test & pulled the boolits to make sure the base isn't swaged down? Not familiar with that powder, is it a light or hot load? When you push a tight patch through the barrel, does it move easier in the middle - I have a 30/30 that is tight on both ends and leads using HiTek (really bad) or PC. A sharp throat transition that scrapes off the coating is another frequent problem. Have the boolits been sitting for a week or so to age before shooting? Cooking reduces BHN till they re-age.

Alloy was 18BHN when casted, and measured 15-16 after cooking.

Throat transition from what I can see doesnt appear sharp. Neither does slugging the barrel with a Hi-Tek bullet appear to strip the bullet for coating.

Yes I have pulled the bullet to check if the loading of the cartridge does not damage the coating aswell.

Rounds chamber in the Sig with no issues.

Vihtavouri N320 is a exellent powder for 9mm :) Load is in the medium range. Not heavy nor light. (3,9grs COL 1.140")

Will check the resistance with a paper patch but I cant seem to have noticed anything out of the ordinary earlier.

Edit: No resistance difference felt that would indicate loose tolerances in the center of the barrel

[Shotgundrums]

Alloy was 18BHN when casted, and measured 15-16 after cooking.

Throat transition from what I can see doesnt appear sharp. Neither does slugging the barrel with a Hi-Tek bullet appear to strip the bullet for coating.

Yes I have pulled the bullet to check if the loading of the cartridge does not damage the coating aswell.

Rounds chamber in the Sig with no issues.

Vihtavouri N320 is a exellent powder for 9mm :) Load is in the medium range. Not heavy nor light. (3,9grs COL 1.140")

Will check the resistance with a paper patch but I cant seem to have noticed anything out of the ordinary earlier.

Edit: No resistance difference felt that would indicate loose tolerances in the center of the barrel

I had a muzzle (last inch to the muzzle) leading issue long ago with a KKM 9mm match barrel. I slugged the barrel with a bullet from the breech end. As I tapped the bullet through, I noticed the tension on the bullet suddenly eased toward that area of the muzzle. So, this was obviously a dimension change at the muzzle, in turn caused gas cutting, resulting in leading...
Give this troubleshoot a try.

SGD

[Kjeksen87]

Slugged the barrel couple of centimeters in from each end. Need to measure with a micrometer. Will post the result.

Shot coated bullets through Glock 19. No leading.
Both Glock and Sig has almost identical barrel size (measured after slugging with micrometer)

[slide]

Sounds like you making progress. Bet it is a good feeling! How did the barrel on the glock look after shooting?

[Ausglock]

I have run coated lead in G17, G34, G35(in 40S&W and 357Sig), Springfield XD, Springfield 1911 in 9mm and 45ACP, Para 38Super and 45ACP, STI Trojan, SV infinity open gun with 4 port comp, S&W 686, 586, Model 10, model 66. Model 19, Ruger GP100, Kimber 1911 as well as Marlin 1894 in 44 Magnum.
No leading in any of them.

[slide]

Ausglock strikes again!!!!!

[Kjeksen87]

Sounds like you making progress. Bet it is a good feeling! How did the barrel on the glock look after shooting?

Progress? Yes. I would say so. But I havent changed much in the process of coating since almost every batch have passed tests. The one batch that didnt, went back to the pot (probably failed as I forgot to preheat the bullets - I live in a cold climate)

Barrel on the Glock looked very good. So as far as Hi-Tek and Glock shooting, its a go go.
But why the Sig doesnt like it bothers me and I need to find the source to the problem.
Will also be testing in several more guns.

[Kjeksen87]

HI-TEK: Is the Cold enviroment coating procedure still to preheat the bullets to 30c before coating?

Have anybody in other cold enviroments found this to be working?

[ioon44]

HI-TEK: Is the Cold enviroment coating procedure still to preheat the bullets to 30c before coating?

Have anybody in other cold enviroments found this to be working?

Yes, I preheat to 30 C and try to pick days when the ambient temp 5 C or more so I can put them out side until the Acetone flashes off. If I get the boolits too hot the coating can get to thick and rough. My first coat is mixed 125 ml to 20 grams and I am thinking about trying a 150 ml to 20 gram mix .

I use a heated cabinet to force dry the coating with the temp reaching 40 C to 50 C for about an hour and bake the next day. This also needs at least 5 C or more ambient to reach these temps. I bake 4.7 lbs for 12 min at 195 C to 210 C as my oven has a 15 C temp swing during the baking.

[Shotgundrums]

Ausglock strikes again!!!!!

+1
Yeah, Trevor is the exception😋
All of his guns are 100% perfect.

[Kjeksen87]

After slugging the chamber end couple of cm`s inside, and muzzle end the same way to see if the dimensions are differenent - I found that
the Sig barrel is tighter by .0003 at muzzle end. As far as slugging and feel for difference in force, there is none.
Still not any closer to figure out why the Sig X5 is leading. Measurements are done with professional machine tools.

[Kjeksen87]

Will this hypothetical issue with sharp throat transition cause issues if the bullets are lubed with Alox aswell?

[Shotgundrums]

Will this hypothetical issue with sharp throat transition cause issues if the bullets are lubed with Alox aswell?

Possibly, try and see. With the proper reamer, you can cut a better profile on the throat and rifling leade. After cutting, get a good fine polishing compound and work that area back and forth using an evenly thick patched brass jag. This will then smooth finish your work.

Production guns like these aren't made with cast bullets in mind. So, often enough they need worked or re-barreled for steady diets of cast Bullets. My glock 17 barrel I had to lap at first in order to use coated bullets. It was easy to do because glock poly rifling has rounded corners around the flats. So all I did was use the method I stated above, making sure not to exit the muzzle with the patched jag. Runs like a champ with coated bullets now.

[Ausglock]

+1
Yeah, Trevor is the exception
All of his guns are 100% perfect.

Ha... The Para 45 took some thought, but the throating fixed it.

Lonewolf barrels are a pain too. I have seen a few of their 9mm glock barrels lead badly with my bullets. Again it was a throating issue. run a reamer in them for 20 seconds and leading solved.
Stormlake, Barsto have no problems.

[Ausglock]

Will this hypothetical issue with sharp throat transition cause issues if the bullets are lubed with Alox aswell?

My Para 45 leaded like a mongrel with any bullet. Alox, hard wax, soft wax, Dog snot... anything. throating solved it.

[Shotgundrums]

My Para 1911 Wildbunch gun has very minor leading at the 12 o'clock position at the throat only. But it cleans out easily.

[Kjeksen87]

Picture of the throating on the Sig X5

160575

[Ausglock]

Looks OK from here.

SGD... which Para you use?
mine is the First model GI Expert. Also use it for wild bunch here in OZ
Have an IAC 1887 Lever 12ga and the Marlin 1894 44mag for Wild bunch too.
The para has had some work done to it, But I only play WB. don't shoot for sheep stations.

[Shotgundrums]

Looks OK from here.

SGD... which Para you use?
mine is the First model GI Expert. Also use it for wild bunch here in OZ
Have an IAC 1887 Lever 12ga and the Marlin 1894 44mag for Wild bunch too.
The para has had some work done to it, But I only play WB. don't shoot for sheep stations.

Its a GI Expert too. It's a decent gun for the money. Runs 100% with any ammo. There's a member who sells Hitek coated pills to other sass and WB shooters but only does gold. Every once in a while someone will see my rounds at the loading table with either c-a red or zombie green or something, and ask where the heck I got em lol.

[Kjeksen87]

Well Sig disaster update - It leads even worse with Alox. MUCH worse. Somethings up with my Sig. Frick.

[Shotgundrums]

Well Sig disaster update - It leads even worse with Alox. MUCH worse. Somethings up with my Sig. Frick.

You might try what I did with my glock barrel.

[Kjeksen87]

You might try what I did with my glock barrel.

Yep. Thats the next thing. But will for the heck of it try some .358" bullets and see.
What I could clearly see is that the Hi-Tek coating leaded less than Alox did. That is a positive thing.

[Shotgundrums]

Yep. Thats the next thing. But will for the heck of it try some .358" bullets and see.
What I could clearly see is that the Hi-Tek coating leaded less than Alox did. That is a positive thing.

Here is what you wanna do with your jag patching. I use an old white cotton t shirt for all gun cleaning. This way I can make what I need, and I'm cheap lol.
Make an even rectangular, long strip that you can roll tightly around the jag, over hanging the front just a touch. The end of the patch roll needs to stop where it began, just like that of a paper patched bullet. Adjust length as needed but it should be snug. This way it's even and polishing is even. Coat the patched jag generously with your compound. Depending on your compound oil could be needed.

Take great care NOT to exit the muzzle with the jag as you make passes. Put your finger over the muzzle so you don't. Be sure to start with an as clean as possible barrel.

[Kjeksen87]

Thank you for the tips Shotgndrums :)

[Avenger442]

And I would have paid a Gunsmith to do it. Man you learn all kinds of good stuff here.

[Kjeksen87]

Shot Hi-Tek bullets (same load, same everything) through Beretta 92fs. No leading. Very uplifting.

[Shotgundrums]

Shot Hi-Tek bullets (same load, same everything) through Beretta 92fs. No leading. Very uplifting.

Excellent!!