simple Hi-Tek coating

[ioon44]

I finally got to try some of the powder when I got some of the new Bronze 500 from Donnie. I like it so much better than the liquid!

So I had been wanting to try HT on some rifle bullets so I figured it was as good a time as any.

The Bronze 500 coated well though I know I put it on a bit heavy. Tried out a new squirt bottle and it was letting me add too much mix to the coating bowl. I have to try something else next batch.

Neal in AZ

In the pic below L to R:

NOE .40 cal 200 gr. TC - loaded long in a .40 case for my STI's
Lee 500 gr. coated and gas checked - loaded in a .458 SOCOM round for subsonic shooting
NOE 186 Collar Button for 45-70 - same loaded in a 45-70 case
NOE 350 RD for 45-70 coated and gas checked - same loaded in 45-70

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Bronze_500.jpg

Great looking boolits.
What powders work with the .458 SOCOM for subsonic shooting using a 405gr boolit?

[ioon44]

I'd suggest you try the 3 thinner coats to check if they work.
If they do, Then try going back to 5mls per coat for the last 2 coats and see how it goes.
Everyone will get slightly different results due to oven variations, alloy variations, etc etc.

I finished the 3 coats on the 405gr boolits using the Bronze with 3 to 4lm per 2kg mixed 125/20 and they passed the smash test, but the texture is rough.

I guess I did not dump them on the tray soon enough, would the Bronze mixed 100/20 give a smoother finish?

[Intel6]

Great looking boolits.
What powders work with the .458 SOCOM for subsonic shooting using a 405gr boolit?

Not sure about the 405 gr. I am shooting the 500 gr, subsonic with Reloader 7.

[HI-TEK]

I finished the 3 coats on the 405gr boolits using the Bronze with 3 to 4lm per 2kg mixed 125/20 and they passed the smash test, but the texture is rough.

I guess I did not dump them on the tray soon enough, would the Bronze mixed 100/20 give a smoother finish?

If you have not baked it, and it looks a bit lumpy/rough, it is easy to fix.
Simply return them into your mix/tumbler container, add a few non coated ones, and a little Acetone.
Shake around, and the extra Acetone should re-mix coating, coat the newly added ones, dont shake too long, then dump and dry again.

All the coatings will produce a lumpy rough finish if shake mix coat for too long, or you had used a little too much coating, (or both).
It is easier, if you have a slightly more dilute mixture, as a small over dose, should not present problems, as you are adding more solvent than coating.
Diluting a little more, will not hurt the coating, as extra solvent will make coating thinner and go further with coating more.
Bronze 500 will also work this way.

[Ausglock]

For powder, I only ever use 20gms to 100mls MEK.

[ioon44]

With the ambient temp here getting to 30deg to 35deg C I will try some MEK, I understand it dries slower than Acetone.

[Avenger442]

I know it is not recommended by some here but I use a container with a lid on it to tumble the bullets in the coating. The lid keeps the acetone from flashing off before I get ready to dump on the screen to dry. Usually tumble the bullets for about 30 to 40 seconds.

[Ausglock]

I have 6 new powders here to test.
One is a very Nice Magenta. Super shiny..
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150702_204225.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150702_204225.jpg.html)

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

You can also add up to 25% denatured alcohol to your Acetone/MEK (prior to adding to powder/liquid coatings) to slow the evaporation rate down even more.

[HI-TEK]

You can also add up to 25% denatured alcohol to your Acetone/MEK (prior to adding to powder/liquid coatings) to slow the evaporation rate down even more.


You are correct Swamprat.

Additions of small amounts of Denatured Alcohol, will certainly slow down drying rate.
It may be more applicable/suitable for hobbyist type applications, where only small amounts of alloy are being coated and especially in hot dry conditions.

What is needed to be kept in mind, is that the whole initial "design" of coatings, was for use by Commercial casters, who required fastest speed of production, fastest drying rates, etc, etc, hence use of fast drying Acetone, which was also ideal product for the polymeric system as a solvent as well..

MEK, (Methyl Ethyl Ketone), also dries slower than Acetone, but is less user friendly.

I have seen commercial casters, use warm air blowers to actually speed up drying rates, even with using Acetone as a dilution solvent on its own.

With commercial manufacture, (loading, coating and dumping), allows coating of about 1000, every 1-2 minute or so, with a cement mixer tumbling type of coating technique.
These guys don't want things progressing slower, but faster instead.

[andre3k]

You are correct Swamprat.

Additions of small amounts of Denatured Alcohol, will certainly slow down drying rate.
It may be more applicable/suitable for hobbyist type applications, where only small amounts of alloy are being coated and especially in hot dry conditions.

What is needed to be kept in mind, is that the whole initial "design" of coatings, was for use by Commercial casters, who required fastest speed of production, fastest drying rates, etc, etc, hence use of fast drying Acetone, which was also ideal product for the polymeric system as a solvent as well..

MEK, (Methyl Ethyl Ketone), also dries slower than Acetone, but is less user friendly.

I have seen commercial casters, use warm air blowers to actually speed up drying rates, even with using Acetone as a dilution solvent on its own.

With commercial manufacture, (loading, coating and dumping), allows coating of about 1000, every 1-2 minute or so, with a cement mixer tumbling type of coating technique.
These guys don't want things progressing slower, but faster instead.

Speaking of tumbling with cement mixers. Which would be a better option for commercial casters?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-4-quarter-cubic-ft-compact-cement-mixer-91907.html

OR

http://www.lowes.com/pd_241568-47120-SGY-CM1_0__?productId=3591096

[Ausglock]

I'd go the Lowes one.
Plastic drum would probably be better than a steel drum..

[HI-TEK]

Speaking of tumbling with cement mixers. Which would be a better option for commercial casters?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-4-quarter-cubic-ft-compact-cement-mixer-91907.html

OR

http://www.lowes.com/pd_241568-47120-SGY-CM1_0__?productId=3591096


Andre3k,
Thanks for questions.
They may both work, and will depend on quantity required to be coated each time.

What I did not advise, is that commercial casters I have seen here, place/jam a tapered plastic bin inside the mixer. (They do not like to use steel mixing ribs and steel barrel mixer as is)
The plastic bins we have here are ribbed and fit snugly into mixer.
This allows removal and replacement of plastic bin, when using different colours, and saves on any cleaning requirements of mixer between each colour.
When changing colour coating, operator simply removes inserted bin and replaces it with another bin. (No clean up required)
Many plastic bins also have a clip on lid which is also useful.
If you cannot get ribbed plastic bins, some have fitted fixed plastic or wooden flat pieces inside plastic bin to provide tumbling action.
Using plastic tumbler insert reduces possibility of damage to projectiles as plastic is softer than the Steel mixer and ribs.
The benefit of using a cement type mixer is that after coating, the load can be quickly dumped into a wire mesh tray, or onto a wire mesh conveyor and transported to drying areas.

[HI-TEK]

I'd go the Lowes one.
Plastic drum would probably be better than a steel drum..

I agree to a certain extent.
It is OK, if you only use one colour, but would be areal head ache, having to clean between each colour change, if using several coloured coatings.

[andre3k]

I guess i will have to find out which mixer can accomodate the 5 gallon buckets that are plentiful here. Looks like i have another project. I have several shooters at my club using my bullets. Demand is exceeding my tumbling and oven capability right now.

[HI-TEK]

I guess i will have to find out which mixer can accomodate the 5 gallon buckets that are plentiful here. Looks like i have another project.

Well, it will certainly give you something to do in your spare time...:bigsmyl2:

[benellinut]

Speaking of tumbling with cement mixers. Which would be a better option for commercial casters?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-4-quarter-cubic-ft-compact-cement-mixer-91907.html

OR

http://www.lowes.com/pd_241568-47120-SGY-CM1_0__?productId=3591096

If you decide to go with the HF, here's a 20% off coupon

http://images.harborfreight.com/hftweb/newhome11/images/20off100112-aff.jpg

[HI-TEK]

I guess i will have to find out which mixer can accomodate the 5 gallon buckets that are plentiful here. Looks like i have another project. I have several shooters at my club using my bullets. Demand is exceeding my tumbling and oven capability right now.


I hear you.
Unfortunately or fortunately, this is what seems to happen, when you start coating, and people see and try your products.
I have had many over the years, start off with a hobbyist set up, then in a short time, are making commercial quantities, and becoming a slave to casting and coating.

If you are happy, and get results you need, it is all worth it.
Keep up the good work, and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

[Ausglock]

New colours.
Wild Orchid.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150706_203318.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150706_203318.jpg.html)

Russian Cherry.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150706_203005.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150706_203005.jpg.html)

Summer Green.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150706_202700.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150706_202700.jpg.html)

All are non metallic and coat easy and very shiny.

[dsa]

Andre3k,
Thanks for questions.
They may both work, and will depend on quantity required to be coated each time.

What I did not advise, is that commercial casters I have seen here, place/jam a tapered plastic bin inside the mixer. (They do not like to use steel mixing ribs and steel barrel mixer as is)
The plastic bins we have here are ribbed and fit snugly into mixer.
This allows removal and replacement of plastic bin, when using different colours, and saves on any cleaning requirements of mixer between each colour.
When changing colour coating, operator simply removes inserted bin and replaces it with another bin. (No clean up required)
Many plastic bins also have a clip on lid which is also useful.
If you cannot get ribbed plastic bins, some have fitted fixed plastic or wooden flat pieces inside plastic bin to provide tumbling action.
Using plastic tumbler insert reduces possibility of damage to projectiles as plastic is softer than the Steel mixer and ribs.
The benefit of using a cement type mixer is that after coating, the load can be quickly dumped into a wire mesh tray, or onto a wire mesh conveyor and transported to drying areas.
Any pics? It would be nice to see how the pros are doing it.

[Balta]

I have 6 new powders here to test.
One is a very Nice Magenta. Super shiny..
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150702_204225.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150702_204225.jpg.html)


Trev
is this 2 coat?

[Shotgundrums]

New colours.
Wild Orchid.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150706_203318.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150706_203318.jpg.html)

Russian Cherry.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150706_203005.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150706_203005.jpg.html)

Summer Green.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150706_202700.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150706_202700.jpg.html)

All are non metallic and coat easy and very shiny.

How is MEK less user friendly? Does it take an hour to dry as opposed to acetone?

[HI-TEK]

How is MEK less user friendly? Does it take an hour to dry as opposed to acetone?

It stinks more, and drying is about 10-20% slower at same conditions.

[Shotgundrums]

It stinks more, and drying is about 10-20% slower at same conditions.
I guess that's not so bad. Liquid coatings seem to have that MEK smell. Alright, then. Thx

[Ausglock]

Yes. 2 coats.
All sample testing is 2 coats unless stated.

[andre3k]

Any pics? It would be nice to see how the pros are doing it.
Im going to take some measurements of a 5 gallon bucket and check out the harbor freight mixer and see which one will fit the best. I have an HF store close to the house.

[Ausglock]

Why not take an empty bucket with you? Easier to get the right fit.

[Beagle333]

HF even sells 5 gallon buckets right there in the store. :grin:

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-gallon-bucket-white-47523.html

[Michael J. Spangler]

358156 double coated with liquid gold survived between 13 and 14.5 grains of 2400 and also 15 grains of Win 296 in 357 magnum.
my 686 barely had any fouling in the barrel (could have been there from before) and my 1894 was just as nice.
It seemed like the handful of wadcutters I put through both firearms after that even cleaned the bores a bit.

I really love this coating. Next time I'll have to try to stop early and see if I can find any of the remains in the berm. Most of them smashed the rocks I was aiming at, leaving nothing left.

[kryogen]

how long should the acetone take to evaporate? seems like the sound changes after 10 seconds or so, so I usually shake 9 seconds.

Maybe that's why I am getting what appears like uneven coating, or shaking 9 seconds is normal? I just do it in a regular heated garage, not humid, 23C, nothing fancy.

[HI-TEK]

how long should the acetone take to evaporate? seems like the sound changes after 10 seconds or so, so I usually shake 9 seconds.

Maybe that's why I am getting what appears like uneven coating, or shaking 9 seconds is normal? I just do it in a regular heated garage, not humid, 23C, nothing fancy.

What you describe with "sound change" is quite normal. Coating time will greatly depend on coating dilution, and ambient conditions. 10-15 seconds is quite normal.
If sound is changing in about 9 seconds, coating is probably drying a little too fast.
You can add a little more Acetone to your tumbler mixer if coating has dried too fast, and especially if you did not coat all projectiles before that happened.
Another trick is add a little more Acetone to your coating mix (dilute a little more), and use same volume to coat, and do not tumble coat until dull sound happens again..
Coating time, simply needs to be just barely long enough to get coverage and use up coating, so when dumping onto drying trays/mesh, there is no excess coating.
Tumbling for too long, and if sound has changed to dull sticky sound, is possibly tumbling for too long, and will produce rough looking finishes, more touch marks and uneven coats.
Dont forget, if you coat for too long, or had added too much coating, until coating is baked, you can re-dissolve the coating by simply adding a little more Acetone, and this time dont keep tumbling for as long, and just enough to coat without it getting to the sticky stage.
Then, simply dump and dry well.

[Ausglock]

Or swap to MEK.

[Shotgundrums]

Or swap to MEK.
MEK makes prettier bullets too. I'm currently drying these outside in the 98F+ summer heat above my AC condenser unit fan.

[Avenger442]

MEK makes prettier bullets too. I'm currently drying these outside in the 98F+ summer heat above my AC condenser unit fan.

Now there is something I had not thought of doing. Drying over the top of the condensing unit fan. Another good idea from this thread.

[kryogen]

how much longer does it take MEK to evap?

[Ausglock]

About 30 seconds rather than 10.

[kryogen]

And how long do you shake?
does it take longer to dry after that?

[HI-TEK]

And how long do you shake?
does it take longer to dry after that?

Shake until just until all is coated.
It may be 10-15 seconds of shake coating, then dump.
There should be no excess coating mixture left in your mixer, and very little or nil in the lube grooves.

[Shotgundrums]

And how long do you shake?
does it take longer to dry after that?

i don't time this stuff. I put 4 lbs of casts in a bucket, 4.5 to 5 CC of mix. Swirl and tumble the casts and dump them out as soon as the sound changes. Then spread and dry them. They'll stick to each other more so using MEK but no biggie, roll em around.

[HI-TEK]

i don't time this stuff. I put 4 lbs of casts in a bucket, 4.5 to 5 CC of mix. Swirl and tumble the casts and dump them out as soon as the sound changes. Then spread and dry them. They'll stick to each other more so using MEK but no biggie, roll em around.

They are certainly pretty. Well done.

[Ausglock]

If they are sticking together when you dump them, they are not dry enough. swirl some more.

[HI-TEK]

If they are sticking together when you dump them, they are not dry enough. swirl some more.

Sticking could also be caused by far too much coating used. That will cause the sticking problem as well as rough looking finish after drying & baking and some welding together during bake..
Again, if too much coating is applied, then drying process is drastically elongated.
I understand, that there is a natural tendency to apply thick coatings.
I must assure folks, that applying too much coating, causes many of the problems being encountered.
Two very thin coats, well dried and baked, should work just fine.
(Thin coats are usually applied as a more diluted mix, and using same volume per load of projectile)
(Did I just again advised people to use less????? lol lol):bigsmyl2:

[Shotgundrums]

Sticking could also be caused by far too much coating used. That will cause the sticking problem as well as rough looking finish after drying & baking and some welding together during bake..
Again, if too much coating is applied, then drying process is drastically elongated.
I understand, that there is a natural tendency to apply thick coatings.
I must assure folks, that applying too much coating, causes many of the problems being encountered.
Two very thin coats, well dried and baked, should work just fine.
(Thin coats are usually applied as a more diluted mix, and using same volume per load of projectile)
(Did I just again advised people to use less????? lol lol):bigsmyl2:
I don't use much. Only about 4.5 to 5 ml for 3.9 lbs (1787g) of bullets. There are other coating aficionados using 2 to 3 ml more than me. When using acetone the stick doesn't happen. It's not a gooey stick.

[HI-TEK]

I don't use much. Only about 4.5 to 5 ml for 3.9 lbs (1787g) of bullets. There are other coating aficionados using 2 to 3 ml more than me. When using acetone the stick doesn't happen. It's not a gooey stick.

That volume looks OK.
I dont know, if your aficionados are using same mixture strength or a more diluted version to what you are using.
If you have a set mix recipe you are happy with, stay with it.
If your addition is drying too fast during tumble coating, simply squirt (into your tumbler/mixer) and extra 1- 5 mls mls of Acetone.
Adding a little more Acetone will not hurt , it simply will give you more time to finish coating to your satisfaction.
As it starts to just change sound, then dump & dry.
If you keep tumble coating after it changes to sticky dull sound, the more rough will the finish become, and also become more sticky as you noticed..

[gunoil]

I might stain some with mek. Never tried mek.

[HI-TEK]

I might stain some with mek. Never tried mek.

Gunoil,
If you look at Ausglocks test colour pictures, (posted previously), he used MEK to make up all the Powdered coating test samples, at a rate of 20gms to 100 mls MEK.
The results were great with both finish and other required parameters.
Acetone and MEK are very similar in properties, and MEK is a little more aggressive as a solvent, but slightly slower with drying.

[leadman]

I'll have to give mek a try.

[gunoil]

Thanks hitek, "l got's ta know".

[Ausglock]

MEK with the powder "Seems" to work better at dissolving the powder than Acetone.
Might just be me......

[Avenger442]

MEK with the powder "Seems" to work better at dissolving the powder than Acetone.
Might just be me......

I haven't tried MEK. We used it a lot on construction jobs. I'll have to agree with Joe. It creates a more pungent odor. We couldn't use it in some of the occupied areas we worked in like Hospitals and Research areas. My wife already complains when I open the basement door after a coating session. Explained that it was acetone just like her nail polish remover. It seems hers smells better than mine for some reason:veryconfu.

[kryogen]

ill try mek, as acetone seems to flash off to fast, and I get spotted looking bullets.

[HI-TEK]

ill try mek, as acetone seems to flash off to fast, and I get spotted looking bullets.

My suspicion is, that you may be tumbling too long. That is one thing that causes such spotty finish, aside from using too much coating. If conditions are for quick drying, then you also may have to quicker shake coat before dumping to dry.
You can also add a more diluted coating mix, or add a little Acetone to your mixer to help with coating and slow drying a bit more.

[kryogen]

I shake for less than 10 seconds. can that be too long?

[Ausglock]

With MEK. I find swirling is about 20 to 30 seconds, depending on Ambient Temperature.
With Acetone, it is 10 to 20 seconds.

[ioon44]

I guess there is no point in trying to pre heat boolits when the ambient temperature is 32deg to 35 deg C?

I have been laying my screen trays on my dark colored deck and the surface thermometer gets up to 55deg to 60deg C, I have been leaving them there for about 2hr and baking the next day. Passes the smash test fine.

[Gremlin460]

Snowed in yet Trev??

[Ausglock]

Snowed in yet Trev??

Not yet. You?
I think Joe is.

[robertbank]

Remind me not to visit Australia in July!

Bob

[Shotgundrums]

144817

[kryogen]

I can never seem to get color that is that even.
Mine is "smooth", but the color is always "clumped". I dont get it.

[robertbank]

Cook them longer.

Bob

[kryogen]

Cook them longer.
Bob

won't help.

[Ausglock]

Swirling too long causes that. You are trying to coat with already dry coating. dump sooner.

[kryogen]

can I shake for like 6 seconds then?

[Ausglock]

No idea. What colour you using? Powder to liquid?

[ioon44]

I am getting good even smooth coating with 2 coats of Candy Apple Red powder mixed 125/20 in a 4.73ml round tub with no lid and use 5ml to 6ml with 2.14kg of boolits.
I have timed my shaking time at around 14 seconds before I dump them on to the screen and baking for 12 min after drying.

[kryogen]

I use the powder 100/20 acetone, coat 1 ml per pound, bake 12 min after oven is back to 200.

(err, I wrote 120 but I meant 100/20...)

[Ausglock]

Your mix is thinner than I like. Try upping your application amount by 25% per pound.

I really like 20/100. It works for all powders so far tested.

[ioon44]

144948Here is a first try at posting a image.

2 coats of Candy Apple Red powder mixed 125/20 in a 4.73ml round tub with no lid and use 5ml to 6ml with 2.14kg of boolits

[kryogen]

Your mix is thinner than I like. Try upping your application amount by 25% per pound.

I really like 20/100. It works for all powders so far tested.

err I meant 100/20.

[Gremlin460]

Not yet. You?
I think Joe is.

nope but had frost two mornings in a row.. great casting weather!!.

[Gremlin460]

anyone got a 90387 they dun want?? I would like to try some with the CAR powder.. Molds in AU hard to get, unless you have them made.

[Ausglock]

Grem... Speak English.. What mold is that?

[Gremlin460]

Grem... Speak English.. What mold is that?

Sorry Mate, them ones over the other side like numbers for some reason, its a 124 grain TC 9mm in 358 diameter. The number was a lee catalogue number. Cleavers don't stock em and QLD gun exchange, well they just tilt their heads like puppies hearing a funny noise when you ask them about molds.

[Ausglock]

Search shows it to be a Lee 120gn Conical of 356 dia. 6 cavity.
How many you want?
I have 3 of them.

[Avenger442]

My search shows a different product number on all US suppliers when I in put the 90387. However Lee does show the 90387.

Can you order molds from Lee or other US supplier from Australia?

[Gremlin460]

Search shows it to be a Lee 120gn Conical of 356 dia. 6 cavity.
How many you want?
I have 3 of them.

Just one Trev, I will get a local machine shop to take it out to 357/8 and remove the lube grove in the process.

Avenger:- getting stuff ordered from across the water is like pulling teeth, I ordered a simple media separator through the local gun shop on the 6th of May this year, its still not here as of today.

I have sent 14 AS/2 auto feed sizer frames to the USA and every one arrived within 14 or 18 days (except one which has never been seen again) I think the difference is the commercial system uses boats and I use air freight. but still near 2 months is ridiculous.
Even having molds reworked is almost impossible here due to the fact that no one has cherries to do the job. If they screw it up using GP tooling, there is months of waiting to get another. One of the reasons we treat our molds like royalty here.

To stay on topic, at least Hi-Tek is semi-local so powder supply is not bad.

[Avenger442]

My Hi-Tek orders here show up almost every time within two days. But Bayou and Gateway are only a couple of states over. I guess we are ruined here in the states. I don't like it if it takes over a week to get something.

I have more Hi-Tek test loads ready for the range but had a death in the family and just haven't been able to get there. Maybe late this week. Have slowed down the 308 bullets that went wild on me the last time. First test for the 007 Gun Metal Hi-Tek this trip in the 308.

Has anyone been shooting .308 at 100 yards with Hi-Tek? Would like to see your results.

[Ausglock]

Grem. I buy all my Lee stuff From Titan Reloading in the US.
Cheap and fast delivery with tracking.

[HI-TEK]

Has anyone been shooting .308 at 100 yards with Hi-Tek? Would like to see your results.[/QUOTE]


This is what I extracted from people supplying data.
I hope it is useful.
Below are details.
Hi-Tek

"Quote"

(1)
For my high velocity experiments in my 223 Rem Contender 23" bull barrel I heat treated linotype, installed the gas checks in an RCBS luber/sizer so lead was untouched. I coated with Gold 1035 twice with a short bake time IIRC about 8 minutes. Water quenched after each coat. The boolits were 32 to 35 bhn. This alloy allowed me to get 3,619 fps average with accuracy around 2 1/2" at 100 yards. Slower loads were more accurate. I tested boolits with and without quenching and more of the heat treated hardness was retained with the quenching after each coat.
During my testing I noticed I would get a light gray puff of smoke when working up loads. This came at the same time as the accuracy deteriorating. A harder alloy was used and moved the point up in which the light gray puff of smoke was noticed again.

(2)
165 grain, 309 dia, 308 rifle, maximum load 41 grains ADI powder 2206H , travelling 2650-2750 ft/sec,
20 shots were fired. Only powder residue left barrel was clean. 2 coats of coating.
One coating also gave same results same. No gas checks were used.

(3)
125 grain, 316 diameter, 8 grains 2205 powder, travelling at 1200-1300 ft / sec with 2 coats.
310 Cadet rifle. No gas checks. 65grn 309 diameter Marksman fired at 1700ft/sec with 2 coats.

[kryogen]

what is it winter in the south side of earth? It's summer here in northern quebec. w00t.

Last winter I got so pissed of the -40 celcius winter that I bought a canada goose expedition parka. Best winter coat I ever bought.
That thing is so awesome, even when it's -20 out, you can actually get too hot if you do any exercise. I don't freeze anymore during the winter now.
I bought a pair of their tundra bib overalls also, and their extreme northern mitts (which they dont seem to make anymore, probably because they were too warm).
The mitts are so warm, even walking at -20 celcius is too warm. The bib overall is awesomely warm also.
And, I got some -100 boots also. LOVE those.
With just the parka and the boots, winter now isnt so cold anymore. LOVE it.
1000 for the coat, 800 for the pants, 200 for the boots, 300 for the mitts. best 2300$ I ever spent.

With all the kit, you can stand still all day at -40 and not be cold. My wife says that I look like a north pole adventurer. I don't care. I am warm when everyone else is freezing.
With -100 boots that get up to your knees, it's not cold anymore, and I don't care if 2 feet of snow have fallen during the night, I can just get to my jeep and it's not cold anymore.

[Labanaktis]

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae238/boneyard_03/image.jpg4.jpg (http://s975.photobucket.com/user/boneyard_03/media/image.jpg4.jpg.html)


a little fun tonight! Sized and ready to roll!

love this stuff!


Matt

[HI-TEK]

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae238/boneyard_03/image.jpg4.jpg (http://s975.photobucket.com/user/boneyard_03/media/image.jpg4.jpg.html)


a little fun tonight! Sized and ready to roll!

love this stuff!


Matt

Great looking products. You have done well with it.
Thanks for your post.

[andre3k]

IS that the zombie green color? Does donnie keep that in stock? If so, I may have to get some.

[HI-TEK]

IS that the zombie green color? Does donnie keep that in stock? If so, I may have to get some.

Yes. It is Zombie Green.
Donnie should have stocks, but not sure, as it was fairly popular colour.
Just contact him and ask him.
Hi-Tek

[Just The Tip]

Question about ovens for you guys. I've been looking for a comercial pizza oven and found a lincoln 1301 locally for a good price. The convection has what looks like a dead spot in the middle but using the conveyor should eliminate that issue. Am I correct in my assumption? Has anyone experience with this particular oven? Other option in a lincoln 1132 but shipping and the exchange rate make it much more expensive. Thanks for any info you could send my way.

[popper]

308W with gold 1035, 170gr GC 3 coats. AC & H/Td. Load runs 2600 fps from 24" 1:10 AR. Not as good as ESPCd, so far. I got some superhard to experiment with, normal alloy is Cu enhanced Hi Sb from Roto. Posted targets & details in hi/Cu alloy thread. Gold is working good in the PB 300BO @ 1800 (loaded another 150 last week), no decision on the 308W yet, I think I got some leading.
Edit:
During my testing I noticed I would get a light gray puff of smoke when working up loads. This came at the same time as the accuracy deteriorating. A harder alloy was used and moved the point up in which the light gray puff of smoke was noticed again. Valid observation, for PC as well.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

IS that the zombie green color? Does donnie keep that in stock? If so, I may have to get some.


Andre,
I have Zombie Green in stock ready to go.
Donnie
225 324 4501

[rogsir]

Did some testing in my revolver.

http://i58.tinypic.com/i75reu.jpg

[andre3k]

Had a chance to meet with Donnie yesterday to pick up my powder while en route to New Orleans. He even took the time to show me around the shop which gave me some ideas on improving my setup. Looked like he was fully stocked up on Hi-Tek powder too!

[Avenger442]

Did some testing in my revolver.

http://i58.tinypic.com/i75reu.jpg


What were the results?

[Ausglock]

All you blokes that are using the HITEK. Make sure you donate to Keep this forum going.
I think HITEK Joe will make a sizable donation :bigsmyl2:

[Gremlin460]

OK, here goes...

I came back from the range awhile ago, and stripped both my 92fs and the wifes 1911 pro series down. I had fired 180-190 of the new batch of candy apple red through the 92. Rosie had burned 80 through her 1911.
Her gun hadn't been cleaned for 3 shoots so was understandably dirty up the tube. Mine however I clean each and every time.
Looking down the bore of mine I was shocked to see that the leading was that bad the last 2" of bore seemed to have no rifling visible whatsoever!!.
Using a dentist pick I could lift sheets of lead out of the rifling.

Now all the projectiles passed S&W tests, the bake time had been extended from 8 to 14 mins because I had trouble the last time under cooking the coating (Red). Seems the red needs a bit longer.
Next week I will retry with a batch sized at 358 not 356 like these were, my barrel slugs at 356.2 I had fully expected that the lead would have spread that .0002 at firing. Looks like I may have been wrong.
Mixture was 20/110 ratio and allowed to stand 1 hour after mixing, just to make sure... Oven is PID controlled. I have had zero problems with all other colours, but this red and the liquid one before, I have had failures in.
I am not too proud to admit when I have failures and also am open to possible correctional theories.
I will let you know how the next batch sized to 358 go and whether that was my issue.

Cheers... Mike.

[Ausglock]

Grem. Was the 1911 OK with the same pills sized the same as used in the *** 92FS.

I hate Beretta handguns. So much variation in their bore sizes.

I have tested 4 new reds. They are the "V" series coatings.

Deep burgundy is super shiny and smooth. So is Blood Red and Patriot Red.
These V series bake at shorter time. 10 minutes instead of 12 works with these reds.
Going to try higher temp for shorter time.

[Gremlin460]

Grem. Was the 1911 OK with the same pills sized the same as used in the *** 92FS.

I hate Beretta handguns. So much variation in their bore sizes.

I have tested 4 new reds. They are the "V" series coatings.

Deep burgundy is super shiny and smooth. So is Blood Red and Patriot Red.
These V series bake at shorter time. 10 minutes instead of 12 works with these reds.
Going to try higher temp for shorter time.

Trev I honestly cant say, the 1911 had limited leading, cleaned out real easy, but it had not been cleaned for 3-4 shoots, so I would be guessing and don't wish to do that, I have cleaned them both and will go back to the range in 2 weeks. Its closed next week for a comp.

As for the 92, I kinda like it, a lot, it is definitely not a IPSC gun, and will never be a 0MOA gun, but, it is sooo comfortable to shoot, it eats anything I feed it, it does well at 10 pin and steel challenges. I know the bore 356.2 therefore I cast accordingly. Bore discrepancy only is an issue with store bought ammo IMHO, when you cast, you cast to what your gun needs.. so size is a none issue.

I am just hung out on the reds.. the reasoning behind my baking for 14 mins, is the belief that a longer bake produces a slightly darker colour, but a too short bake produces unusable projectiles. So is it better to go darker and be sure the coating has hardened?.
I can drop a handful in a postpak and you can let my know your opinion..

[rogsir]

My .45 Colt loads fails with boolits made for the .45 acp. The sweet spot for these seems to be around 800 to 850 fps. N310, N320 and Titegroup loads are in progress.
In 454 Casull and 460M the 370 grs boolit from MP-molds seems to be a winner. Close to 1500 fps and no leading. Nice group on 25 and 60 meters.

[robertbank]

OK, here goes...

I came back from the range awhile ago, and stripped both my 92fs and the wifes 1911 pro series down. I had fired 180-190 of the new batch of candy apple red through the 92. Rosie had burned 80 through her 1911.
Her gun hadn't been cleaned for 3 shoots so was understandably dirty up the tube. Mine however I clean each and every time.
Looking down the bore of mine I was shocked to see that the leading was that bad the last 2" of bore seemed to have no rifling visible whatsoever!!.
Using a dentist pick I could lift sheets of lead out of the rifling.

Now all the projectiles passed S&W tests, the bake time had been extended from 8 to 14 mins because I had trouble the last time under cooking the coating (Red). Seems the red needs a bit longer.
Next week I will retry with a batch sized at 358 not 356 like these were, my barrel slugs at 356.2 I had fully expected that the lead would have spread that .0002 at firing. Looks like I may have been wrong.
Mixture was 20/110 ratio and allowed to stand 1 hour after mixing, just to make sure... Oven is PID controlled. I have had zero problems with all other colours, but this red and the liquid one before, I have had failures in.
I am not too proud to admit when I have failures and also am open to possible correctional theories.
I will let you know how the next batch sized to 358 go and whether that was my issue.

Cheers... Mike.
I experienced exactly the same thing in the following 9MM handguns using the Gold.

STI Trojan 5"
Norinco NP 29
M&P PRO 5"
CZ 75 Shadowline
CZ 85 Combat
CZ Compact
M&P FS
Mike it isn't your gun or it's bore size or anything else you may have done wrong. I have been down this road for the past two months.

Augsglock made a similar comment about my M&P when I first posted problems with my 9MM bullets. I have tried the following "fixes" to date with no success yet with bullets shot in the above guns:

1. Sized bullets .356 and .357
2. I have heat treated bullets after coating by baking them at 415F for one hour and dropping them into cold water
3. I have dropped them into cold water after each coating
4. I have sized them after the 1st coat and also on the 2nd coat (Obviously not on the same batch of bullets.)
5. I have shot 158gr & 200 gr bullets coated at the same time, using the same mixture and baked at the same time as `125 gr bullets destined for the 9MM. Bullets shot in the 38spl and 45Colt shot fine with NO leading. The 9mm bullets shot and cooked at the same time provided the same results as you encountered.
6. Given the variety of handguns I have used to test the bullets in and given the same results have been witnessed and having used the only two viable sizing dies for the 9MM i think it is fair to say slugging the bores would just be a waste of time. If the product isn't working in the list of guns above and now the 92 I would suggest something else is the problem.

I am currently discussing this problem with Leadman on this site and hope we can come up with a solution. It would appear using WW allloy, which is what I use, the coating will not stand up to the pressures of the 9MM. It may be just the alloy is to soft. That said I experience no leading in my guns using regular lube so even the alloy may not be the problem. The product does work in my 38 spl and 45Colt. Both calibers operate at significantly lower operating pressures.

I wonder if I have a bad batch of powder? We shall see what September brings.

Take Care

Bob

[rogsir]

Kind of had some problems with my .40's My Para load to go was 29mm OAL with WW. All was fine. Could shoot all day no problems or leading. Last summer i got my hands on a SVI for match use. And i did not get it to work with my load. Added Sb 1% at time with no luck. Read some stuff about starting pressure/OAL. Tested some and my load is now 30,5mm and works in both pistols with WW alloy.

[kryogen]

hey robert, my 9mm leads no matter what I do with hi tek and COWW alloy. The alloy is probably too soft for 9mm.
I have loaded 50 with PB gas checks, but never had time to shoot. I have a baby at home and work a lot...
Will let you know as soon as I can shoot the GC ones.

I have 50 with, and 50 without. I'll shoot the 50 with, check bore, and then shoot the 50 without.

If it requires PB checks to shoot my ****ty alloy with hitek, I'll use checks... or give PC another try.

[Gremlin460]

Oh I know this is not the coating, this problem is be *I* have not got my system working correctly.
If your casts are the correct size for your bore, over or undersize makes no matter.
IF your coating regime is correct.
If your load pressures and OAL is correct.
and
If your lead is of the correct physical make up,
then everything will work just fine.
I obviously am overlooking or have an issue in my procedure.
After near 2 years of HiTec this is the first time I have had leading of this level. My lead composition has always been the same. Like I said in a prior post, I used 356 sized cast instead of the normal 358 I have always used, and that alone could have caused the results I saw.

[HI-TEK]

Quote; Ausglock post

I have tested 4 new reds. They are the "V" series coatings.

Deep burgundy is super shiny and smooth. So is Blood Red and Patriot Red.
These V series bake at shorter time. 10 minutes instead of 12 works with these reds.
Going to try higher temp for shorter time.[/QUOTE]


Ausglock,
The "V" Series are a very nice series.
May be you can post these colours for all to see....
From what I have seen, they are shiny, tough as, and with your smash tests, pass severe deformation without coming off the alloy.

Baking the at higher temps may simply darken these Red V's. Will be very interesting to see your results.

[andre3k]

My 92FS leaded pretty bad at when sized at .356. It shot fine using my normal hi-tek regimen sized to .3575. It seems that the Beretta barrels may not like .356 size bullets

[Gremlin460]

My 92FS leaded pretty bad at when sized at .356. It shot fine using my normal hi-tek regimen sized to .3575. It seems that the Beretta barrels may not like .356 size bullets

I think you are correct and I will retry at 358 sizing..
I would not say my leading was "bad", that's an understatement, it turned most of the barrel into a smoothbore.
The fact that it leaded so far down the barrel leads me to believe it was caused by gas cutting.
It looked like these pills did not seal from the get-go. When you think about it , it makes sence, also it proves my WW mix is not too soft or it would have Obturated or deformed at firing to seal around the barrel one would think...

Ahh the fun of experimental reloading!!

[Ausglock]

How about using a known alloy for a control?
Just get a few Kg of 2,6,92 hardball alloy and cast and coat and try these in your guns before blaming the coating.

WW is just too soft for 9mm, 40 etc.
Works fine in 38 and 45.
I have processed over 3 ton of 2.6.92 alloy in all calibres for all brands of guns and Zero... yes Zero leading.
I have people ordering 40,000 125gn Conicals and prepared to wait 3 months for them just because they have tried my bullets and they are cleaner and more accurate than anything else they can buy.

So, if you are serious about high performance loads with coated bullets, use the correct alloy.

My Para 45 would lead badly with grease lubed or HITEK coated bullets.
WW, range reclaim, 2.6.92... everything.
I read about throating the barrel.
I bought a throating reamer from Brownells and within 20 seconds my barrel was throated with a nice gentle leadin to the rifling rather than the sharp cut from the factory.
I can also now seat the Lee 230gn FP to normal seating depth rather than deep seating to get them to chamber.

[popper]

My alloy isn't AC COWW but close in Sb. Works fine in 9 & 40, green coated with HP-38. Change to WST and lead city. IMHO, the fast powders hammer the alloy into the sharp throat. I 'fixed' the problem with a second really thick coat of the green. A proper fix would be to ream the edge off. I just use the WST in the snubby 9 XDs now - it is a mid range load that is easy to handle in what could be a carry gun.

[robertbank]

Popper my 231 loads for IDPA leaded the bore using water quenched WW alloy. The same bullet shoot just fine when lubed with Felix Lube. The only difference other than coating vs lube is the baking which might be softening the lead due to annealing. I then tried water quenching each time I baked the bullets and still got leading. All this using the Gold.

I will try the Green in September and see if I can get different results.

Take Care

Bob

[popper]

I bought a throating reamer from Brownells and within 20 seconds my barrel was throated with a nice gentle leadin to the rifling rather than the sharp cut from the factory.
Wonder if the reamer rental co. has a reamer in common pistol cal. to only break the sharp edge? Seems like it would get a lot of use. I looked at doing it with a twist drill but haven't tried it.
I WD after a 1hr bake of any coating if I need the hardness. I stopped WD for pistol but my alloy has Cu instead of Sn. I have a couple jugs of single coated 9 & 40 H.T.d, just re-coated and AC, now works fine. Don't shoot much pistol but when I do, usually 100 rnds or so. Barrel is still clean.

[kryogen]

will report once i test my 100 bullets.

[HI-TEK]

My Para 45 would lead badly with grease lubed or HITEK coated bullets.
WW, range reclaim, 2.6.92... everything.
I read about throating the barrel.
I bought a throating reamer from Brownells and within 20 seconds my barrel was throated with a nice gentle leadin to the rifling rather than the sharp cut from the factory.
I can also now seat the Lee 230gn FP to normal seating depth rather than deep seating to get them to chamber.

Looks like an easy fix to a problematic situation.

[kryogen]

hey it costs 60$ to have a 5 pound ingot shipped from rotometal to canada... guess who isnt ordering alloy there.

[Ausglock]

hey it costs 60$ to have a 5 pound ingot shipped from rotometal to canada... guess who isnt ordering alloy there.

Bloody Hell... Daylight robbery!!
Isn't there any smelters in Canada??

I can get 1 tonne shipped 400klms for $85 via road transport.

[robertbank]

Bloody Hell... Daylight robbery!!
Isn't there any smelters in Canada??

I can get 1 tonne shipped 400klms for $85 via road transport.

Yes but shipping costs and lead is heavy. eg I live 1500 km from the nearest smelter.

Heck 450 km gets me 2/3 of the way to the next largest city and almost a third of the way to Vancouver smelter. Then there is a small matter of paying for the alloy. Last time I checked the price was around $1.05CDN/lb for Lyman #2 alloy.

I like your reaming solution and will have that done to my M&P PRO. If it works I'll have my other pistols done. I do like the HI-Tek Product and want it to work with my 9MM pistols.

Bob

[kryogen]

there appears to be smelters in canada yeah, but I live in the north and shipping would be expensive for sure. I'm staying with the idea of making my cheap WW alloy work.... with hitek, PC, or GCs.

[Ausglock]

there appears to be smelters in canada yeah, but I live in the north and shipping would be expensive for sure. I'm staying with the idea of making my cheap WW alloy work.... with hitek, PC, or GCs.

Anywhere near The Pas, Manitoba?
I have friends up there.

[Gremlin460]

Anywhere near The Pas, Manitoba?
I have friends up there.

I have friends in moosejaw, but that's because its a good, wholesome colonial country. :P

[Shotgundrums]

Yes but shipping costs and lead is heavy. eg I live 1500 km from the nearest smelter.

Heck 450 km gets me 2/3 of the way to the next largest city and almost a third of the way to Vancouver smelter. Then there is a small matter of paying for the alloy. Last time I checked the price was around $1.05CDN/lb for Lyman #2 alloy.

I like your reaming solution and will have that done to my M&P PRO. If it works I'll have my other pistols done. I do like the HI-Tek Product and want it to work with my 9MM pistols.

Bob
Hey Bob, if the reaming doesn't work, a true match barrel button-rifled would most likely prove worthy a consideration. I have KKM and Jarvis bbls and they'll eat COWW alloy bullets, no problem. Some of the problem with production barrels is the lands-to-grooves depth can be radical... Rifling cut too deeply in relation to the barrel's true bore can causes the bullet to still not allow the bullet to completely fill out into the grooves, even if .001 or .002 over grove diameter. Harder (hardball) bullets are more resistant to this as they're less malleable.
*For these reasons, one with a groove dia of .356 may lead the bore until using a .357/8/ even 9. And then, some may always lead up.

[popper]

Comparison of gold 1035 & Smoke's gloss black in 1:10 300BO. AC isocore with Cu added. Below 1800 good, above I got leading with the 3x gold, PC holds up OK. Same results with 4227 or 110. Alloy doesn't have As in it so H/T doesn't help. I'll add some superhard to see if it is the alloy or coating. Boolits are PB so no GC to clean the bore.145977 Nice group is PC with 110, rest are 4227 HiTek. Another target and another shooter confirmed results. I tried H/T + HiTek in 308W GC and about the same results. Shots at 100. Was hoping to use HiTek & AC in the BO, not sure it will work.

[Avenger442]

Had a chance to test the Hi-Tek 007 Gun Metal in my .308. Powder H4895 Bullet was a Lee CTL 312 sized 309 Bullet weight 160 grain.

145979145984

Gun was sighted in at 100 yards with a factory load so I could see the difference between those and the loads I was using. Factory jacket load groups were running between 2-3 inches.

145980 145988 (They are loading sideways again?) This group with the Hi-Tek was 1" without the flyer 2" with. 39 grains H4895 6" drop difference from factory load.

145981 145989This group with Hi-Tek was 1 1/2" 37 grains H4895 7" drop difference from factory load.

I had some trouble with the scope on this gun during the last test. Looks like I got it fixed. The loads I was shooting before were around 41 to 43 grains of H4895 at about 2600 fps with no bullet drop. Could not tell if the 3" groups I was getting was due to the scope. Going back up to these loads to test again. No lead in the barrel either day.

I did test another bullet with the 1035 Gold three coats. It is a Lee C309 also about 160 grains. I had shot some 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with this bullet last winter with the gas check using a bull barrel Remington 700. Someone (forgot who) asked me if I would test it without the gas check and I did with the same powder loads in the same gun that produced the 1 1/2 inch group. Of course the pressure overcame the lead alloy and I shot all over the berm and had lead in the end of the barrel about 1". Reduced these loads down to a more reasonable pressure running about 1800 to 2000 fps and best group was about 3". This time no leading. This alloy runs about 16 BHN.

I have a new appreciation for casters that use hollow point molds. Just cast about five pounds of hollow point 45s. Hot and fast.

[robertbank]

Hey Bob, if the reaming doesn't work, a true match barrel button-rifled would most likely prove worthy a consideration. I have KKM and Jarvis bbls and they'll eat COWW alloy bullets, no problem. Some of the problem with production barrels is the lands-to-grooves depth can be radical... Rifling cut too deeply in relation to the barrel's true bore can causes the bullet to still not allow the bullet to completely fill out into the grooves, even if .001 or .002 over grove diameter. Harder (hardball) bullets are more resistant to this as they're less malleable.
*For these reasons, one with a groove dia of .356 may lead the bore until using a .357/8/ even 9. And then, some may always lead up.

My 1 - 10 twist S&W barrel eats WW alloy bullets with no leading with lube. They just don't like the Hi-Tek coating. Unless the KKM barrel is fitted I doubt it would shoot any better than my stock 1-10 twist barrel. The KKM is 1 - 16 I think.

Take Care

Bob

[popper]

Avenger - about the same results I get. Pulled the rest of my BO loads, 16.5 4227. Micd them @ 307-308, sized 3085. IMHO gold is good up to 2000fps. Evan slightly undersized it should have bumped up to bore.

[Avenger442]

Popper
With no gas check, I would guess 2000 fps probably maxes out most other lubes with the alloy I'm using. It just will not take the pressure. I was told back when I got in the hobby that I would need to use gas checks for any higher pressure loads. So I've pretty much stuck with that. I've pushed the Hi Tek to a little over 2700 fps with a gas check and a 160 grain bullet in the .308. But my most accurate loads come in at less than that speed.

I have still not tried the PCing yet. I have some conventional lubes that say they will stand up to 2500 fps but I haven't tried them either. My time to go to the range has been limited so I have been concentrating on the Hi Tek and getting where I want to go with it. Almost there.

I use the IMR 4227 in my short barreled 44 magnum rifle with good results. What other powders have you tried in the BO? Someone on this forum, I think it was leadman, suggested I use a powder with a slower burn rate.

[popper]

I've used RL7 for heavies and H110 for lighter. I had been using 15.5gr , thought I'd try 16 but actually loaded 16.5. Didn't work, got 6" groups. PC allows me to h.t. The boolits and use a cheaper alloy, h.t. HiTek hasn't worked for me.

[Gremlin460]

OK new batch of red done. 1st coat passes wipe and smash test, it also sizes fine, BUT I can scratch with fingernail. So although it seems to adhere to the lead just fine doesn't seem quite at hard/tough as the metalics I have use before.
So Joe/Trev is that an issue with doing the second coat with metalics over the red?
If these don't work I will Alox them and just shoot em 2100 is way too many to remelt.

[Avenger442]

I've used RL7 for heavies and H110 for lighter. I had been using 15.5gr , thought I'd try 16 but actually loaded 16.5. Didn't work, got 6" groups. PC allows me to h.t. The boolits and use a cheaper alloy, h.t. HiTek hasn't worked for me.

I thought that the temperatures for cooking were about the same in PCin as for Hi Tek. Do you not have to heat the PC as hot to set it?

[kryogen]

Ok report

shot 50 hitek 3 coats with gas checks, no leading, best grouping
shot 50 hitek 3 coats without gas checks, minimal leading, almost nothing, good grouping.

will need to do more testing, but so far those are the best results i got.
the gc bullets shot tighter groups and absolutely zero leading.

when I shot the 10 GC rounds after the 30 non gc rounds, it scraped the minimal leading that was there.

[HI-TEK]

Ok report

shot 50 hitek 3 coats with gas checks, no leading, best grouping
shot 50 hitek 3 coats without gas checks, minimal leading, almost nothing, good grouping.

will need to do more testing, but so far those are the best results i got.
the gc bullets shot tighter groups and absolutely zero leading.

when I shot the 10 GC rounds after the 30 non gc rounds, it scraped the minimal leading that was there.

Looks like you are getting on top with your process.
I am glad that you may have worked out best scenario for your application.
Please keep up posting. Many would be pleased with your updates.

[popper]

Had to unload a bunch (~100) of HiTek 40SW for entertainment this morning - and it's COOLER today. 167gr PBTC ~ 900 fps and I did about 2" @ 10 yds right handed, Left handed I keep pulling right & low. Need more practice. Usual 1-1 1/2" when using both. I did have to get my glasses to see the sights. Point & click practice next time. One of these days I'll have to clean it, maybe. I also did LOUSY on clays, maybe 10%, practicing follow through on long shots.

[Dusty1234]

I have a question, it's been almost 5 months since I have done anything with the dry powders. I opened up the containers of what I have and the powder is all clumped together. Can I still use the powder or do I need to order new?


I live in the volunteer state and the humidity is through the roof.

[HI-TEK]

I have a question, it's been almost 5 months since I have done anything with the dry powders. I opened up the containers of what I have and the powder is all clumped together. Can I still use the powder or do I need to order new?


I live in the volunteer state and the humidity is through the roof.


I have found that happening with the powders that may be exposed to the general environment.
I have had about 1-2 kilos of powder in a plastic bag, not sealed well, and it seemed to go like a soft honeycomb, but tested, it works OK.
Just simply mix up same mixture you would use, coat, dry well, and bake.
In very high humidity areas, the coatings will pick up moisture, especially when coating with solvent systems, but well drying, even at slightly elevated temperatures, fan forced drying does the trick.

[Ausglock]

Ditto to what HITEK posted.
I have left a jar of powder open to the elements for over 4 months. it clumped.
I broke it up with a screw driver and mix as per normal.
Worked fine.
No issues.

[Dusty1234]

Thank ya'll I'll give it a try!!!

[Gremlin460]

Update :
The casts that I coated that scratched with a fingernail were recoated twice with Red Copper and fired with no issues. Very slight leading was detected and this was traced back to not quite enough bell on the case and 1/4 turn too much crimp on the FCD.

The reason the first coating scratched I believe is the alloy is a fraction softer as I added some pure to the mix. My first coats are really just stains, ultra thin, mixed at 20/120.
I mix thinner because it gives me a few seconds more when tumbling to coat the nose and base better.

After 170 rounds, the barrel was clean with a few passes of a small brush. Much better result than last week.

[HI-TEK]

Ditto to what HITEK posted.
I have left a jar of powder open to the elements for over 4 months. it clumped.
I broke it up with a screw driver and mix as per normal.
Worked fine.
No issues.

It seems, that the powders have hidden benefits, not known previously.
The "clumping" aspects, may actually reduce dusting when handling, and still work OK when mixed with solvent.
All is good.

[Gremlin460]

It seems, that the powders have hidden benefits, not known previously.
The "clumping" aspects, may actually reduce dusting when handling, and still work OK when mixed with solvent.
All is good.

What would be really good Joe is if you could "Compress" 20g into a "tablet" form.
Then its a case of 1 tab per 100ml. Being compressed would make metering easier. Also dividing powder for sale would be easier. Just a thought.

[gunoil]

Hitek, hunt for a used pill machine, thats a great idea. I guess you dont even make liquid anymore.

[HI-TEK]

Hitek, hunt for a used pill machine, thats a great idea. I guess you dont even make liquid anymore.

I also think it would be great, but if I got those things, I would probably have the law after me.
Pill machines are under great scrutiny here.
For volume manufacture, I would need a about 6 high speed machines, (very expensive to set up).
I wonder if it would be worth it in the long run.

Some of the coatings, cannot be made into powders unless we change ingredients, and then we have to try to match the finished colour of the liquids, and that is very difficult..
Main ones are the Dark Green, Kryptonite Green may have to remain liquids.

Some prefer to stay with the liquids, but they are starting to warm towards the powders, because of cost savings, as powders dont attract levies and surcharges freighting/shipping these flammable liquids.

[Avenger442]

Pills might be a good idea. But not at the added regulation of some governmental agency. We have too much attention from them already. This message is being recorded by the NSA as I send it.

I'm just warm to the powders. They are easier to mix. But I still love the 1035 Gold liquid. If the decision is ever made to discontinue that one in liquid form let me know so I can order before it is all gone.

Thanks for this product Joe and thank the guys there, for us, that help you make it. You too Ausglock.

[Avenger442]

Joe
Just had another idea about the pills. You could make them "plop-plop fizz-fizz". Just drop them in the acetone and instant coating no shake.:veryconfu

I can just see it now, I'm riding down the road with some Hi-Tek pills in a baggie and the Sheriff pulls me over for some minor traffic infraction and wants to know what the pills are. I tell him Hi-Tek Zombie Green and spend the next 24 hours getting out of jail.

[popper]

Avenger - sorry not to get back sooner. I cook the PC for an hour then into ice water. Same with HiTek. PC works great but the HiTek turns darker and doesn't shoot as well. Same results in 308W. Got a test set up for the BO - some harder alloy.

[Shotgundrums]

The "gelcap" container could be the rationed catalyst...?? Folks, I am steadfastly sold on the powders. Far too easy to use. Also, MEK is proving to be a much more user friendly solvent. Not only are bullets far prettier, the coverage seems to be more uniform. Granted dry time is a little longer...so what. If you are still streamlining your production as usual, there's no real loss in productivity.

Next up, hitek coatings to eat and drink.

[Avenger442]

Popper: I thought the temps for cooking were about the same. So what you are saying is not related to hardness loss due to annealing of the alloy but performance of the coating. Can you send me a PM with your PCing process? Maybe list hardness of your alloy so I can start at that point.

So far I have had no problems with Hi-Tek leading in my 308 even at max loads as long as I use gas checks. Can drop same bullets down to approx. 1800 to 2000 fps with no gas check and no leading. But groups are not what I would call good. Think that the alloy I'm using and Hi-Tek are probably going to come into a good group at between 1200 and 1600 fps with no gas check.

Shotgundrums: I'm going to try MEK. Some of my HT powder bullets are not coming out as smooth as the liquid. I know this can be related to other problems but MEK might help. Can't hurt to try. Picked up some of the liquid coated bullets to load the other day and they were slick. Hard to hold onto if not paying attention.

[gunoil]

The "gelcap" container could be the rationed catalyst...?? Folks, I am steadfastly sold on the powders. Far too easy to use. Also, MEK is proving to be a much more user friendly solvent. Not only are bullets far prettier, the coverage seems to be more uniform. Granted dry time is a little longer...so what. If you are still streamlining your production as usual, there's no real loss in productivity.

Next up, hitek coatings to eat and drink.

i'll try mek next time. Been working in my mini factory, hadn't had time to shoot or nothin.

[HI-TEK]

" powders, are Far too easy to use".

Next up, hi-tek coatings to eat and drink.

Well, I had a thought, may be I should stuff things up, and make it more difficult to use,
will that be OK ???? lol...lol...

Hi-Tek, eat and drink????, may be I can make it in good old Bourbon Whiskey, and this may satisfy some thirsty folk...lol..lol, but, it wont have much nutrition value though...lol...lol...

[HI-TEK]

This message is being recorded by the NSA as I send it.

With their monitoring systems, all emails in and out, messages, are all monitored for key words.

I'm just warm to the powders. They are easier to mix. But I still love the 1035 Gold liquid. If the decision is ever made to discontinue that one in liquid form let me know so I can order before it is all gone.

Thanks for this product Joe and thank the guys there, for us, that help you make it. You too Ausglock.

No problems at all. Thanks for the complement.

With Gold 1035, both the liquid and powders should be similar in appearance when coatings are finished.
I think, that Donnie has quite a few gallons in stock. Just check with him to make sure.

What I have noticed is that people seem/tend to use much more powder per mix, to get coverage/colour intensity.
This can lead to more rougher/dull finishes.
Because solvent based systems are less in concentrations with ingredients, they give an impression of working better producing smoother finishes.

There is no real reason why powders, made up, should not look exactly the same after coating.
With liquids and powders, there are variations possible with use of various additional ingredients to improve heat reflecting property, and improving load bearing factors, but all such modifications can cause a much lesser glossy finish. Even if not so glossy in finish, if bonded well, all coatings should work OK. Some folk are just perfectionists, and like very shiny, smooth, slippery, pretty and so on.
All that is possible with Hi-Tek coatings.

[kryogen]

You will not like me joe, but i shot 150 hitek coated, with gas checks, in my 9mm today and i got leading streaks.

my alloy is too soft for 9mm i guess, i dont know, so ill have to give up hi tek for 9mm because it would cost as much to buy quality alloy than plated bullets.

will have to give pc another try. I dont blame the hitek, i know that my alloy isnt the best. Straight ww.

[HI-TEK]

You will not like me joe, but i shot 150 hitek coated, with gas checks, in my 9mm today and i got leading streaks.

my alloy is too soft for 9mm i guess, i dont know, so ill have to give up hi tek for 9mm because it would cost as much to buy quality alloy than plated bullets.

will have to give pc another try. I dont blame the hitek, i know that my alloy isnt the best. Straight ww.

Kryogen
This is not a matter of my liking you or not.
There is no reason at all for me to dislike you.
The things that are obvious to me at least is that 9mm are designed with use with Jacketed ammo.
You are trying to reproduce results of Jacketed ammo, using poor quality alloy, and was hoping to compensate by using the Hi-Tek coating and no Copper jacketing.
If it would have worked, then all would be great. Unfortunately, in your case it did not work in the 9mm.
These are facts of life, and I have no issues with that result.
With Powder coating, I have some serious concerns about it "working" in the same 9mm.
Generally, powder coatings are not as hard after bake as the Hi-Tek, so using same alloys, I am expecting more stripping and fouling of barrel. I could be wrong, but only time and your tests will confirm things.
Main thing is, that you are eager to experiment to see what happens.
If powder coating ends up fixing your needs, then it is all good.
I would appreciate your results when complete.

[Avenger442]

Joe
I know you have said to stay away from silicone lubs around the Hi-Tek. What about teflon spray on dry lube? About to use some lubricant around my loading area and have been told the graphite I've been using actually is a slight abrasive. So I'm looking for something else that will not migrate and interfere with the adhesion of the coating. Hi-Tek sells a lube but is it good for metal parts that are constantly moving against each other?

[robertbank]

My experience with HiTek in the 9MM mirrors Kryogen's. That said using the same alloy with regular soft lube (Felix Lube or 2500Xlox) and I get no leading using WW alloy. I attribute the results to annealing of the lead that is not hard enough going into the process, In any event, I will and do use the HiTek for 38spl which I shoot a lot of and 45Colt. I have not spent anytime with HiTek in 45acp but expect good results as it is a low pressure round and should be o with my alloy.

I agree with Joe in that results with PCing will likely be similar. I am going with GC's and HiTek with my 9MM hoping I will see no leading. I should know tomorrow. If I get leading I will have a significant number of bullets to remelt but I am retired and time, I have lots of.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

Hey robert, 6 mils alu gas checks and 3 coats of hitek didnt do it for me.... Good luck.

i have just cast, espced and loaded 100 9mm rounds to test on thursday. It they still lead, im out of the whole hitek/pc game and im buying a lubrisizer and soft lube.

i have to say that hitek worked perfectly fine with 2 coats for my 38 spl with ww alloy. Doesnt work in 9mm. Even with gc.

I hate the time it takes to do the job with espc or hitek. I have a business and a 3 months old baby and I have no time. Maybe a lubrisizer like a star would just be better suited for me. Quickly process a ton of rounds, done.

[gunoil]

I buy ingots from bullet company, its boolit made stuff from foundry they deliver to him. 70lbs in usa Shipping for around 15$dollars USPO FREE BOX. .356size. Sageoutdoors gas checks. I use cartridge gage on all my ammo.




iam not charlie

[HI-TEK]

Joe
I know you have said to stay away from silicone lubs around the Hi-Tek. What about teflon spray on dry lube? About to use some lubricant around my loading area and have been told the graphite I've been using actually is a slight abrasive. So I'm looking for something else that will not migrate and interfere with the adhesion of the coating. Hi-Tek sells a lube but is it good for metal parts that are constantly moving against each other?

Avenger,
If you are buying any commercial spray lubes, that is used for all general lubrication, there may some, that would be suitable. It is really a try and see, but test them in an area where you minimise possibility of cross contamination.
We supply a water based Fluoro-polymer dispersion, Aqualube 5000, which, (after much dilution up to 25 to one dilution, & goes a long way) can be suitable as a dry film lube, that should not interfere with coating.
Some time ago, Ausglock in fact tested it by applying very diluted mixture of this lube to a pre-coated projectile, then re-coated them again.
They all passed smash tests with flying colours, and coating bonded to existing baked coating well.
This stuff is an excellent case lube, excellent sizing aid with hard alloys, and, will lubricate virtually any two mating surfaces, metallic or synthetic or blends. This stuff has maximum heat tolerance to about 250C.
We also supply, the Hi-Tek 500 plus product, (solvent Based), which can also work.
This is mainly used as molten metal release to stop spatter sticking to surfaces and releasing cast with a mirror finish replicating the Mold. This stuff is an extreme pressure lubricant release agent that will withstand temperatures to 1000C. It is also an excellent lube for any two metallic sliding surfaces which will slide like silk after application..
Have a chat with Donnie about these.
P.S. none of these have any Silicone materials in them.

[Avenger442]

Joe
Thanks for the info. I'll give Donnie a call. Just one more question. I need something that will not leave gunky build up or a thick film that might cause something to stick to the metal. I don't need a motor oil I need a dry film if I can get it. Are both the 5000 and 500 going to give me that?


Robertbank, Kryogen, Gunoil

I'm a newbie when it comes to casting and shooting Hi-Tek in pistol calibers. I've only used it with about 20 rounds of 44 mag that I shot out of a rifle so I guess that doesn't really count as shot out of a pistol. I've just cast and coated some 45s and more 44s to be loaded in 44 sp and 44 mag for my Rugers. I have a question can any of you or maybe all of you tell me the hardness of your alloy, what pressure the loads are making in the 9mm and maybe what powders you have tried? I just wanted learn what I can do as far as the alloy I have cast. Don't think I want to spend a lot of time cleaning lead out of the guns.

[Ausglock]

I use Hitek 500 for mold release. spray it on cold molds, brush it in with a tooth brush. brush the vent lines out to allow air to escape when casting. If you have a mold that has a habit of bullet hanging in the cavity, spray it with the 500 and the bullets will fall out. I use Lithium grease for a sprueplate lube. works great. only use a tiny amount sprayed on my fimger and wiped across the sprue plate surface. this lasts all day casting.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;3353910]Joe
Thanks for the info. I'll give Donnie a call. Just one more question. I need something that will not leave gunky build up or a thick film that might cause something to stick to the metal. I don't need a motor oil I need a dry film if I can get it. Are both the 5000 and 500 going to give me that?


Both will do what you are trying to do.
No gunk, no sticky residues, just excellent lubing and slip, as a dry film.
The 500 plus residue is more noticeable white residue than the 5000 grade.

[kryogen]

Avenger, for me, it didnt work in my 9mm with any powder, and 124RN, 120TC, or 105 SWC. Alloy is straight wheelweights air cooled. (annealed anyway by cooking hitek or PC)

[robertbank]

Joe
Thanks for the info. I'll give Donnie a call. Just one more question. I need something that will not leave gunky build up or a thick film that might cause something to stick to the metal. I don't need a motor oil I need a dry film if I can get it. Are both the 5000 and 500 going to give me that?


Robertbank, Kryogen, Gunoil

I'm a newbie when it comes to casting and shooting Hi-Tek in pistol calibers. I've only used it with about 20 rounds of 44 mag that I shot out of a rifle so I guess that doesn't really count as shot out of a pistol. I've just cast and coated some 45s and more 44s to be loaded in 44 sp and 44 mag for my Rugers. I have a question can any of you or maybe all of you tell me the hardness of your alloy, what pressure the loads are making in the 9mm and maybe what powders you have tried? I just wanted learn what I can do as far as the alloy I have cast. Don't think I want to spend a lot of time cleaning lead out of the guns.

I am using WW alloy with a little tin added to aid mold fill out. I water quench all my 9MM, 40Cal and 44 mag bullets. Using HiTek coating, that passed both the acetone rub test and the smash test my 9MM barrels were badly leaded. Loads were running around 1050 fps using 125 gr bullets. 38spl bullets processed in the same batches on the same day did not lead the barrel of my Ruger GP-100. Pistols tested in 9MM were S&W M&P 5" PRO, CZ 75B, 85C and a 75 Shadowline. Barrels were recently checked by a gunsmith for proper leade. All were fine.

The WW alloy I have will not stand up to 9MM pressures using the HI-Tek or PC Product. God knows I have tried. 38spl and 45Colt work fine with both Hi-Tek and PC Product. I shoot a lot of 38spl in IDPA and will continue to use Hi-Tek in that caliber. HI-Tek does not create as much smoke as regular soft lube, a major benefit when shooting action sports. I should mention none of the above guns lead up using the WW alloy water quenched using regular lube. My thought is the baking of the product is annealing the alloy reducing the hardness of the core and the coating is not hard enough to offset the softness of the alloy, Just a guess on my part and I have no way of testing to confirm.
Like Kryogen my shipping costs to ship harder alloy to where I live would offset any advantage this process has for what I need. What I intend to do over the winter is see if I can find a source of antimony at a reasonable price. If sourced I will try blending a harder alloy using my WW as a base. That I can do when there is five feet of snow on the ground and the temperature is hovering around -5C.

I am not sure why I am so intent on making Hi-Tek and PCing product work with my alloy but I have been accused of being stubborn on occasion.

Take care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Robertbank
I too have a stubborn streak inherited from both sides of the family. Consider it a good thing unless used in the wrong way.

You mentioned 44 mag bullets. Since I am about to load those, how did they do?

[robertbank]

I have not shot any. I coated some but after my issues with the 9MM I did not want to lead up the barrel of my Rossi 92. Cleaning leading out of a handgun is way different than trying to clean up a rifle. Try it. I hope it works but I think the pressure is what is going to be the issue if you are using WW alloy.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

I have not shot any. I coated some but after my issues with the 9MM I did not want to lead up the barrel of my Rossi 92. Cleaning leading out of a handgun is way different than trying to clean up a rifle. Try it. I hope it works but I think the pressure is what is going to be the issue if you are using WW alloy.

Take Care

Bob

Robertbank

I've shot the 44 mag coated with 3 coats Hi-Tek 1035 Gold the liquid in a 16" Winchester 1894. It has been a little over a year ago. They didn't lead the barrel. But can't remember the alloy hardness. Probably around 16 BHN. I know I was using IMR 4227 for powder 22-24 grains and I think the bullet weight was 230. With those loads pressure, I think, would have been around 26,000 to 28,000 psi and around 1500 fps. As I remember groups were not all that good with best a 2" group at 50 yards and bullet drop was too much.
Found one of the photos.

147406

[popper]

My thought is the baking of the product is annealing the alloy reducing the hardness of the core and the coating is not hard enough to offset the softness of the alloy, Just a guess on my part and I have no way of testing to confirm. True!
I cook the PC'd for an hour then into ice water. Same with HiTek. You need to have arsenic in the alloy(shot)to get much heat treating hardness AND wait a week before loading & firing. Still needs some age hardening. When I started PC for 40 a few years back, I found I would get minor leading that wouldn't 'shoot' out but it didn't affect accuracy much. You could also add a pinch of zink, maybe up to 1% (yea, I know) to increase your hardness. Stick-on WW won't get you there.

[robertbank]

popper I tried cooking both PC and Hi-Tek coated bullets for an hour then into ice water (9MM) and they leaded just as bad as before. I have the same batch that has set for a month or so and may try them again. A lot of effort for not much gain I am afraid. I'll either find some antimony and harden up the alloy or pass and put up with slightly more smoke from the lube when shooting 9MM.

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

147406[/ATTACH]

Hi,
The photo suggests to me that all your shots were all low, and you may have lost velocity to cause such consistent low shots.
I could be wrong, but I remember many years ago, where our first coatings used we were almost unable to hit the target and a lot fell short.
It was found to be caused by a combination of coating being too slippery, and sized incorrectly.
Once these were fixed, accuracy and speeds were OK.

[Avenger442]

Hi,
The photo suggests to me that all your shots were all low, and you may have lost velocity to cause such consistent low shots.
I could be wrong, but I remember many years ago, where our first coatings used we were almost unable to hit the target and a lot fell short.
It was found to be caused by a combination of coating being too slippery, and sized incorrectly.
Once these were fixed, accuracy and speeds were OK.

Thanks Joe
May revisit the 1894 Winchester again with these latest 44 bullets coated with the 007 powder. They don't seem to be as slick. Also I have never checked the barrel to see if I need to size larger or smaller. Keep in mind that a little over a year ago when I started using the Hi-Tek I had only been casting bullets and learning for a few months. I think those 44 mags were some of the first cast bullets I had ever shot if not the first. I had not slugged the barrels of my guns or even saw a need to at that time. Up until that time I was loading the jacketed bullets mostly Hornady. And I had only been doing that for about a year. I'm still a newbie compared to most on this forum. But those here have helped me get where I am quicker than I could learn it on my own. Nothing will get me there quicker than learning from someone else who has done it.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Joe
May revisit the 1894 Winchester again with these latest 44 bullets coated with the 007 powder. They don't seem to be as slick. Also I have never checked the barrel to see if I need to size larger or smaller. Keep in mind that a little over a year ago when I started using the Hi-Tek I had only been casting bullets and learning for a few months. I think those 44 mags were some of the first cast bullets I had ever shot if not the first. I had not slugged the barrels of my guns or even saw a need to at that time. Up until that time I was loading the jacketed bullets mostly Hornady. And I had only been doing that for about a year. I'm still a newbie compared to most on this forum. But those here have helped me get where I am quicker than I could learn it on my own. Nothing will get me there quicker than learning from someone else who has done it.

I hope that things work out.
If the coatings are not as slick,... may be,... if they all pass smash tests, you can re-cook them for another 10 minutes or so at 200C.
They may darken, but coating should be OK. (after re-cooking, re-do the smash test)
My thoughts here is, that the extra cooking, may "stiffen" or harden finish, to provide a much slicker finish.
These, then sized at appropriate diameter, should give you the results that you were after.
I would be very interested in what you find.

[kryogen]

Hey Robert it gets to less than -40 here sometimes. Once, my exterior thermometer gave an error reading during the night when I went to check the temp. The furnace was going full heat and it still wasn't really warm. Means that it was less than -40 celcius without the wind. AND, it was winding like crazy.
You don't want to be outside when it's that cold.

Not often below -40 though. That's really cold.

One positive point, beer gets cold really quick when it's -40 outside ..... much faster than in the -20 freezer :P

[HI-TEK]

Hey Robert it gets to less than -40 here sometimes. Once, my exterior thermometer gave an error reading during the night when I went to check the temp. The furnace was going full heat and it still wasn't really warm. Means that it was less than -40 celcius without the wind. AND, it was winding like crazy.
You don't want to be outside when it's that cold.

Not often below -40 though. That's really cold.

One positive point, beer gets cold really quick when it's -40 outside ..... much faster than in the -20 freezer :P


Well, you guys should send our pollies here a message, to advise them about Global warming that is taking temperatures down to minus 40, and for them to do something about that,
by increasing our taxes to fix things......... lol... lol

Seriously, how can you guys live in such hostile areas??? It is almost as bad as us having 45-48C summer temperatures.
You can add warm clothing when you are cold, but how do you cool down when every thing is that hot?

[Avenger442]

Hey Robert it gets to less than -40 here sometimes. Once, my exterior thermometer gave an error reading during the night when I went to check the temp. The furnace was going full heat and it still wasn't really warm. Means that it was less than -40 celcius without the wind. AND, it was winding like crazy.
You don't want to be outside when it's that cold.

Not often below -40 though. That's really cold.

One positive point, beer gets cold really quick when it's -40 outside ..... much faster than in the -20 freezer :P

Have you ever shot a gun in -40 degree temps? Stuck it out the door and pulled the trigger. Bet the bullet froze before it hit the ground.

I'm glad I live in the south.

[kryogen]

If there is too much lube in your gun it wont fire at -40. If you are going to shoot a gun that cold, its better to just spray it all with wd40 and wipe clean.

When its that cold we dont really go outside. Remote start the car, run in.... Go to work... Thats when the car starts. What is funny is that when its that cold, smoke from the chimneys doesnt raise, it goes horizontal then falls down. You know its a cold morning when you see that smoke doesnt go up.

Kids have no school to prevent accidents.

you have to plug the car block heater or it wont start. At that temp its better if you have both a block heater and a battery warmer. Last winter my battery just froze and died... When its that cold i always carry a warm booster pack, and heavy winter clothes.

even a small accident and getting stuck outside 20 minutes can cause major injuries.... Not time to fool around.

if you have proper winter clothing and boots, and googles, you can deal with it though. But most people do not have the clothing that it requires. Most just hop out and in.

-100 boots and a full canada goose suit helps. You cannot have any exposed skin, it will freeze in just a few minutes, especially with wind.

[Avenger442]

Bet there's not a lot of crime going on in those temps.

We think it's extreme cold here if it gets to 0 degrees F. At that temp my 45 slide moves in slow motion when I rack it.

[kryogen]

Ok, report:

Fired 100 rounds with powdercoat. Same load, same bullet, same everything. (VS hitek 3 coats).

There was some minimal leading with the powdercoat also. Cleaned in 2 minutes, but still. It was not completely lead free. I had some streaks.
PC produced noticeably less leading in my 9mm using straight ww alloy vs 3 coats of hitek.

I am starting to consider a lube sizer like a star. Would just be so much faster and less trouble.... first I could water quench bullets out of the mold for max hardness out of my alloy, and then just blast through the star sizer and be done with it. Robert reported no leading in the 9mm with soft 2500 lube, some leading with PC and a lot of leading with hitek. (using wheelweight alloy only).

Even if PC works, it just seems like a huge hassle to me vs dumping bullets in the star.... I have to size anyway in a lee die, it's as fast to size and lube in the star, so why bother if star lubed boolits work?

[robertbank]

Well, you guys should send our pollies here a message, to advise them about Global warming that is taking temperatures down to minus 40, and for them to do something about that,
by increasing our taxes to fix things......... lol... lol

Seriously, how can you guys live in such hostile areas??? It is almost as bad as us having 45-48C summer temperatures.
You can add warm clothing when you are cold, but how do you cool down when every thing is that hot?

Now Joe we can always put on more cloths but decency even for you Aussies has it's limits when it comes to removing clothing . LOL Actually where I live now -10C is an occasional low during January. The last three winters we have had no or nearly no snow on the ground from the middle of January on. Living within 100K from the West Coast has it's advantages. I have lived and worked in the NWT and -50C was the cut off for flying in Cessna's on skis in the winter. At that temperature you have only about 15 minutes to get a firing going if you crash before your hands are to cold to strike a match. Never flew without a 30-30 andmy winter sleeping bag. No room for the bag and I never got on the plane.

I have heard from another member of the IDPA Canada forum of his method using your product which he says works for him using WW alloy. Kryogen try cooking for 20 minute each coat at 425F. Do not size until after the third and final coat. I am off to do an IDPA Safety Officer course in Pr. George tomorrow (six hour drive) over the weekend. Next week's weather looks promising so we shall test this method out. I will post my results here.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

I tested 3 long higher temp bakes and size after last coat didnt work for me. Im out of the hitek game. And probably pc too.
back to lube

[HI-TEK]

I tested 3 long higher temp bakes and size after last coat didnt work for me. Im out of the hitek game. And probably pc too.
back to lube

Well, you had a good try. I really wonder, if normal lubes would provide you with the Leading reduction you are seeking?
If solid coating/lubes cannot separate your barrel from Alloy, I cannot envisage any softer substance being able to take the pressures and to prevent Lead being smeared down the Barrel.
As far as I can recall, the quest for an "anti-Leading lube" non contaminating and non smelly/smoky, was the holy grail.

[Avenger442]

Joe
You left out the grease. That was one of the main reason I didn't even start in that direction.

I have some soft lubes to use should I need to and will probably work up loads to use them with. Unless I get another caliber rifle or handgun, I have enough cast and coated to last me for years.

I have also looked at PCing. Read several of the threads posted and haven't been able to convince myself to spend the time and money to learn to do the one that seems to be the best with the PC gun. It has been a successful thing for several using the same cartridges I use. I do like that Eastwood blue some are using. Orange and Blue being my school colors.

For right now I'm still casting and coating with Hi-Tek; will work up loads with the 2500 soft lube and reading up on paper patch.

Forgot to mention learning to make black powder.

[robertbank]

Well, you had a good try. I really wonder, if normal lubes would provide you with the Leading reduction you are seeking?
If solid coating/lubes cannot separate your barrel from Alloy, I cannot envisage any softer substance being able to take the pressures and to prevent Lead being smeared down the Barrel.
As far as I can recall, the quest for an "anti-Leading lube" non contaminating and non smelly/smoky, was the holy grail.

Joe properly lubed and sized bullets should not lead barrels. The only issue is you can get smoke form using lubed bullets which some find distracting. You should read up on how lube actually works and how it prevents leading of the barrel. The lube changes to a liquid under the pressure of moving down the barrel.. Liquids cannot be compressed and the lube forms a seal around the cast bullet preventing gas from escaping and preventing gas cutting. I have shot thousands of soft lubed bulelts in 9MM, 38spl, 40cal, 45acp, 44Mag, ,357mag, 45Colt, .303 Brit, 30-06, 7.62x39 and 30-30 without any evidence of leading. Most of the folks on this forum would tell you the same thing. No magic formula required.

In some applications I use gas checks in others I don't. Outside of rifle bullets I have only one mold now that requires a GC. The mold is a Thompson design for the .357Mag.

I have run 30-06 bullets to 2600 fps using GC with no leading and accuracy was inside of an inch at 100 yards using a scope and rest. Others here have done much better than that I am sure No leading...period.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Guys look, I'm getting leery of being though of as a share holder in Hi-Tek or maybe being paid to tell and show you what my experiences have been with this coating. I'm not against any of the other lube processes and will be trying some of the soft lubes (finger applied don't have money for a lube sizer). I'm sorry some of you have not had the success with this coating that I have had in my .308, .223 and .44 rifles. And I really don't know enough to help you out.

I've been going to the range again to practice with my rifles for about three years. Started back because my Granddaughter wanted to go deer hunting and all of them wanted to go shoot. It was getting expensive and sometimes hard to find ammo for them to shoot so I started hand loading. Then, sometime later, I thought it might be cool to cast my own bullets thus eliminating buying another item that I could just make myself. I knew then that I would need to do some kind of lube. I didn't want to do conventional lubes because of additional and fairly expensive equipment. Already had several hundred sunk into saving money. Also I had read about the lubes getting on loading equipment the regular cleaning and the list.... At the time that I read about Hi-Tek I thought that tumble lube was going to be my choice with a Johnson's Wax and Alox mix. I happened across the Hi-Tek on this forum while looking for tips on several things I needed to learn. With a yard sale convection oven, that I quite frankly don't remember what I paid for but it was dirt cheap, and some 1/4" hardware cloth I started coating. Except once when I exceeded the pressure that my lead would take with no gas check I have never had any leading. Not one time that I observed by looking down my barrel with a light at the other end were there deposits in the rifling. No decrease in accuracy due to leading. I test my rounds against what I would have used from the store to hunt. I zero my scope with the store bought so I can judge the performance of my rounds. In every case I have been able to eventually match the performance of the store bought except for once when I got an 1 1/2 group with Hi-Tek and a little under an inch with Federal Gold Match in .223 at 100 yards. Most of my testing is done from a lead sled sitting on a bench at the range eliminating some of my short comings.

I am not an expert hand loader, caster or shooter. While I know a little about all I'm still a long way from being a competitor at any of those. I do it for the fun. From what I have read and what I have seen I don't think I'm going to find anything that will do a better job for me than coating with Hi-Tek.

I'm about to start loading Hi-Tek for 45 auto, 45 colt, 44 Special and 44 magnum for my Rugers. Out of these, if I get leading, I would expect the 44 mag to lead the worst due to the pressures and no gas check mold so I'm going to do it first. Will report back on these later.

If someone asked me what they should use for a lube I would, and have, recommend to start with Hi-Tek.

A little long winded but just my 2 cents.

No compensation has been paid for this endorsement. :bigsmyl2:

[Humbo]

I've been sitting on the fence for a while now, and almost pulled the trigger on ordering Hitek on several occasions. The biggest appeal to me was less mess, especially when using bullet feeders and when shipping bullets in the mail. I've been very happy with my results with cast bullets and traditional lubes from White Label, I can't remember to have had any leading in any of the calibers I shoot and load for, and accuracy has been stellar.

I just started venturing into the IPSC world, and I can see a lot more range time with 9's in the future. Reading about the failures people have with 9mm and Hitek makes me more hesitant. I have thousands of pounds of clean, ingotized WW alloy ready, and I really don't want to waste my richer alloys just to be able to use Hitek when I know I can have great results with free WW alloy and traditional lubes. I just don't understand Why Hitek fails when the alloy clearly can stand up to the pressures when using traditional lubes. Does it come down to the fact, that under equal conditions, a good lube is simply a better lubricant? I really want Hitek to work, the bullets look fantastic and with equal results it would make things a lot easier. But it has to be cost and time effective as well.

[Shotgundrums]

Well, folks. I just received a sample of Bronze. As mentioned by some, theres a noticeable difference when sizing. It's not extreme though. I applied the Bronze to 158gr rnfp and 240gr rn, of hardball alloy. These were coated three times, sized after first coat then coated twice more. 357 Mag loaded to 14.6gr 2400/44 Mag loaded to 21gr. I'm sorry to report this sample did not reveal better results in my two smith revolvers. Leading was about the same, substantial. The barrel-to-frame junction causing slight restriction in the barrel is most disagreeable to the hitek coating. Other than this, hitek is a great and works in my semi-autos.

Joe, unless the properties of the resin are at their foremost ability, a coating heavily resistant to flame cutting just might deserve your interests :)

[Ausglock]

The issue with 9mm and 38 Super is not the coating. it is the hardness (or lack of) of the alloy. WW just doesn't cut it.

I run the Lee 200gn RNFP in 44 Mag in a Marlin 1894 lever with no leading. 2 coats of the bronze works great.

[Balta]

I've been sitting on the fence for a while now, and almost pulled the trigger on ordering Hitek on several occasions. The biggest appeal to me was less mess, especially when using bullet feeders and when shipping bullets in the mail. I've been very happy with my results with cast bullets and traditional lubes from White Label, I can't remember to have had any leading in any of the calibers I shoot and load for, and accuracy has been stellar.

I just started venturing into the IPSC world, and I can see a lot more range time with 9's in the future. Reading about the failures people have with 9mm and Hitek makes me more hesitant. I have thousands of pounds of clean, ingotized WW alloy ready, and I really don't want to waste my richer alloys just to be able to use Hitek when I know I can have great results with free WW alloy and traditional lubes. I just don't understand Why Hitek fails when the alloy clearly can stand up to the pressures when using traditional lubes. Does it come down to the fact, that under equal conditions, a good lube is simply a better lubricant? I really want Hitek to work, the bullets look fantastic and with equal results it would make things a lot easier. But it has to be cost and time effective as well.

Best benefit for IPSC shooters from HiTek is much less smoke compered to ANY traditional lube.
This pic say why i decide to go with HiTek
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79757&d=1377031757

[Humbo]

The issue with 9mm and 38 Super is not the coating. it is the hardness (or lack of) of the alloy. WW just doesn't cut it.


But again, then why do I get zero leading with ww alloy when using traditional lubes if the alloy doesn't cut it? Is there something else I'm missing?

[Shotgundrums]

But again, then why do I get zero leading with ww alloy when using traditional lubes if the alloy doesn't cut it? Is there something else I'm missing?

traditional bullet lubes also provide a hydraulic seal of the bore as they wet and lube the bullet/barrel bearing surfaces, drastically reducing or eliminating any spotty gas cutting. Hitek can't do this.

i use WW alloy in 9s and 45, hitek lubed. They work fine. These are also match barrels. Most production guns are not made with lead bullets in mind. They are especially not made to repetitive and exacting standards anymore. Then again, what is?...Some guns are fortunate enough to be successful, many are not.

[Avenger442]

But again, then why do I get zero leading with ww alloy when using traditional lubes if the alloy doesn't cut it? Is there something else I'm missing?

Just the question I wanted to ask when I read that. And the other one is why I can shoot WW with 2% tin three coats Hi-Tek in my .308 rifle at one half grain off of max load of H4895 with a gas checked 160 grain bullet with no leading and a 9 mil cast just will not take it? There has to be something missing. My loads are making 50,000 psi.+ in my rifle (grouping is lousy at that speed but no leading). And the 9 mil is making what 30- 35,000 max maybe? Plus a shorter time in the barrel. Sorry Ausglock I'm just not convinced that the lead hardness is the issue here unless there is something I missed after rereading several of the post. I might see it if some of these guys didn't say they were shooting gas checks with the Hi-Tek in 9 mil. and still getting significant leading. But even that is a stretch when I can shoot my 308 in those pressure ranges without the gas check and no leading. I understand your point of a known hardness and maybe the hardness of the wheel weights is an unknown. There is just something missing.

They cannot or will not buy the hardball or materials to produce it from the WW. So I guess that is not an option for them anyway. Their best option is to back up to what was working for them and put up with it's disadvantages of the smoke, mess or whatever there is involved with the soft lubes.

I don't think I'm going to buy or at least cast for a 9 mil. until I see some answer reported or someone who is shooting 9 mil Hi-Teked with success with WW. Don't really care to shoot the smaller calibers anyway in handgun. No disrespect intended to them or those that shoot them.

[Shotgundrums]

Just the question I wanted to ask when I read that. And the other one is why I can shoot WW with 2% tin three coats Hi-Tek in my .308 rifle at one half grain off of max load of H4895 with a gas checked 160 grain bullet with no leading and a 9 mil cast just will not take it? There has to be something we are missing. My loads are making 50,000 psi.+ in my rifle. And the 9 mil is making what 30- 35,000 max maybe? Sorry Ausglock I'm just not convinced that the lead hardness is the issue here unless there is something I missed after rereading several of the post. I might see it if some of these guys didn't say they were shooting gas checks with the Hi-Tek in 9 mil. and still getting significant leading. There is just something missing.

I don't think I'm going to buy or at least cast for a 9 mil. until I see some answer reported or someone who is shooting 9 mil Hi-Teked with success with WW. Don't really care to shoot the smaller calibers anyway in handgun. No disrespect intended to them.

please read post 6187, also when using WW alloy the casing can undersized the bullet some... Seat some bullets of WW metal and pull them and measure.

[kryogen]

Honestly, a star sizer is just faster, with air system and heated lube.
I need to size bullets anyway. With a star sizer and lube, it's as fast to lube and size vs just sizing in a lee die. Then it's done.
I work and I have a baby and I don't have time to PC/hitek anymore...

[Ausglock]

From past experience. WW (8-10)BHN fails in 9mm. Range reclaim (12-14) BHN works, Hardball (15-16)BHN works.
No matter if they are bevel base or flat base, 2 coats or 4 coats, WW still fails.
This is in G17, G34, 92fs, STI Spartan, Springfield 1911, Springfield XD S&W M&P pro all in 9mm.
The Glocks were with factory barrels as well as Storm lake, KKM, Lone wolf and EFK.

WW also failed in 38 Super at minor and Major power factor in Kimber 1911 and SVI racegun.

With WW now mainly being zinc here in OZ, Lead alloy WW is very much a thing of the past.

[Avenger442]

Ausglock
So that is the answer to my rifle question. My WW alloy with the tin is well within the hardness ranges you say work. So the guys are probably shooting 8-10 BHN. I guess the WWs in Canada and Australia are made with more lead in them than here is the US.

[popper]

Avenger - 9mm 2x liquid green, XDs9 @ 7 yds, 130gr. BB rotometal high Sb with some Cu added. No leading. 4 gr W231/HP38. It works.
147943

[Humbo]

Ausglock
So that is the answer to my rifle question. My WW alloy with the tin is well within the hardness ranges you say work. So the guys are probably shooting 8-10 BHN. I guess the WWs in Canada and Australia are made with more lead in them than here is the US.

The same goes for the WW alloy here in Norway. I have a steady supply of WW's from larger vehicles, they range from 100 to 500 grams each, and has a hardness of at least 12 BHN. This morning I measured an ingot I melted down a couple of weeks ago, and it was right at 14 BHN. Quenched bullets come in at 23-24 BHN. So I guess then there's hope after all and I should give it a shot, no pun intended.

[kryogen]

yup, water quenched WW are quite hard.

[HI-TEK]

Just wanted to put in my two bobs worth, and I apologise in advance, if my comments offend any folk.

From years of looking at metal alloys, (and at one time even manufacturing wheel weights), and, talking to Lead alloy foundries, it became obvious, that wheel weights, are, and can, vary hugely in composition, and is made as cheaply as possible, to obtain maximum profits.

Composition of these alloy mixtures varies greatly in composition with each manufacturer and even from batch to batch from same manufacturer, and will greatly depend of price/choice/availability of raw materials being used.

Wheel weight are just that, weights, nothing more and nothing less. They do not have to comply to any engineering requirements aside from having a specific weight, and they contain Lead as binder.

I am puzzled, as to where or how was it decided, that wheel weights should be the material of choice in shooting applications and was the ideal alloy for a specific application?

Hardness is only one aspect that seems to me, to be major portion of this whole W/W discussion.

What is totally appearing not to be discussed or included in the overall discussions, that the obturation and sealing aspects, (hydraulic deformation) and engineering properties of all these alloys are totally different, due to variations of composition, and will vary hugely from batch to batch with wheel weights.

Some wheel weight alloys actually crumble/fracture, when they are smashed, and others easily flatten like soft Lead.
Without ability to know the actual alloy composition, nor be aware of the engineering properties of a batch of wheel weight alloy, it becomes a guessing game in trying to get any such alloy to work correctly with engineering requirements .

Also, that is why some quench harden and others will not harden same way or level.

I find it amusing, that it has been implied, that the coating process, must be interfering with hardness of alloy and or also interfering with quench hardening.

"Highly filled" W/W alloy will, and have behaved totally differently, to others, that contain more Lead than fillers, and explains the various hardness being obtained, but also explains why some are used successfully and some do not.

I have tried to cover this subject several times, and tried to contribute, that some wheel weight alloys have "reactive metals" as fillers, and these can cause poorer adhesion, not only to Hi-Tek, but other coatings as well, due the reactions taking place with coatings during bake.

Other lubes, may work, but I seriously doubt that such lubes can compensate or make up for variability of alloy engineering properties.

I have also advised, that many companies, who are trying to get maximum bond to metals, actually Acid pickle surfaces of alloys to remove reactive metals, and also create high surface areas where coatings can bond without the "active metals" interfering.
I am not advising nor recommending that people, suddenly go out and pickle their alloys with acids.
There are much better ways to achieve end results. Many well documented alloying recipes are available produced by people who were successful in making appropriate and suitable alloys.

I really am concerned, that we are trying to "standardise" the coating, and wanting it to work with every possible application.
It also appears to me, that there seems to be less of an interest, of the possibility of the alloy being not suitable for end use application, and the variability of success thereby caused.

It is fully understood, that a lot of folk are trying to save money and do things themselves, and obtaining products/materials that seem or are a bargain.

If success is achieved with those activities, then all is good.

But sometimes, we need to face the unfortunate facts, that savings or expected results, may not be achieved.

[robertbank]

Ausglock
So that is the answer to my rifle question. My WW alloy with the tin is well within the hardness ranges you say work. So the guys are probably shooting 8-10 BHN. I guess the WWs in Canada and Australia are made with more lead in them than here is the US.

Really! Are you aware of the US-Canada Free Trade Agreement? Canada produces approx. 10% of the cars/car parts in N.A. That would suggest 90% of the US built cars sold in Canada would have US originated WW's. The WW you would get off a Chrysler Mini Van or a Ford pick -up likely would or could come from a Canadian originated supplier likely owned by the same US company making them in the US. The probability of the alloy being significantly different in the US vs Canada would be zero.

I use regular lubed bullets in all my pistols, revolvers and rifles with no leading. That said, as others have pointed out lube works differently then the Hi-Tek product.

Auglock are you now saying WW alloy will not work in 9MM? If so you would have saved us a significant amount of time. At least it we are past the operator error/wrong equipment explanations if that is what you mean.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Really! Are you aware of the US-Canada Free Trade Agreement? Canada produces approx. 10% of the cars/car parts in N.A. That would suggest 90% of the US built cars sold in Canada would have US originated WW's. The WW you would get off a Chrysler Mini Van or a Ford pick -up likely would or could come from a Canadian originated supplier likely owned by the same US company making them in the US. The probability of the alloy being significantly different in the US vs Canada would be zero.

I use regular lubed bullets in all my pistols, revolvers and rifles with no leading. That said, as others have pointed out lube works differently then the Hi-Tek product.

Auglock are you now saying WW alloy will not work in 9MM? If so you would have saved us a significant amount of time. At least it we are past the operator error/wrong equipment explanations if that is what you mean.

Take Care

Bob

Bob
Do you know the hardness of the alloy you are using in the 9 mil?

[Avenger442]

I have been toying with the idea of shooting some black powder. I wonder if there is a use for Hi-Tek in that type of loading?

[robertbank]

Bob
Do you know the hardness of the alloy you are using in the 9 mil?

With water quenching 21BHN. Without 9. These were taken using a Lee tester which is likely not the most accurate. I augment my WW alloy with 50-50 solder to aid mold fill out and add a little hardness. With GC my rifles never lead using water quenched bullets. I have no problems with Hi-Tek in 38spl/45Colt cartridges, both of which are low pressure rounds. Never have had leading using regular lube in any of my cast bullets in any of the cartridges I shoot.

I am not sure what the issue is with Hi-Tek other than pressure. It seems to me we are softening the alloy with the baking process required in both Hi-Tek and PC coatings. I have no way of accurately testing this out.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Bob
I too use a Lee tester. Think it is about as accurate as we need for our hobby. I know you want to use your straight wheel weigh so it's probably not going to help to tell you this but my clip on wheel weight alloy is running about 12 - 14 BHN air cooled that is with the 2% tin.

[robertbank]

I will defer to your calculations. Your ability to measure the hardness is likely better than my feeble attempts. The tester resides in the bottom of my reloading drawers. The WW aaloy up here is and will be the same as yours in the US. I doubt the manufacturers make WW for cars made in Canada destined for the US market differently than those sold up here.

Take Care

Bob

[Ausglock]

Auglock are you now saying WW alloy will not work in 9MM? If so you would have saved us a significant amount of time. At least it we are past the operator error/wrong equipment explanations if that is what you mean.

Take Care

Bob

Yep.
You didn't ask.
If grease lube works for you, then go your hardest.
If you want to use WW, go your hardest.
How about go to your range and mine some reclaim. cast with that and coat and try in your 9mm.

[robertbank]

Yep.
You didn't ask.
If grease lube works for you, then go your hardest.
If you want to use WW, go your hardest.
How about go to your range and mine some reclaim. cast with that and coat and try in your 9mm.

Done that, no difference in results. At any given casting session I usually have 2 - 3 lbs of range lead to mix in with my WW alloy.

I recently tried GC's with my coated 9MM bullets with much more success. If I get repeatable results then I will go with HI-Tek and GC's using my alloy. I prefer the "less smoke" aspect of HI-Tek which is why I am spending as much time playing with it as possible. If there is a way to make this product work with my alloy, even if it is only for competitions it is worth playing with it.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

We use Wheel weights because it costs almost nothing.
The price of buying quality hardball alloy in canada would probably be as much, or more, than buying already made plated commercial bullets from campro or Berry. So why bother. I cast because I can have 9mm bullets that cost me one cent.

[Avenger442]

I will defer to your calculations. Your ability to measure the hardness is likely better than my feeble attempts. The tester resides in the bottom of my reloading drawers. The WW aaloy up here is and will be the same as yours in the US. I doubt the manufacturers make WW for cars made in Canada destined for the US market differently than those sold up here.

Take Care

Bob

Bob
It was not my intent to question your ability. I was just pointing out that my alloy seems to be harder than yours. Which doesn't help you much.

And, if you are correct and my COWW alloy is the same BHN as yours then that still leaves me with the question. Why at a higher pressure and longer time in the barrel does my rifle not lead?

[robertbank]

Bob
It was not my intent to question your ability. I was just pointing out that my alloy seems to be harder than yours. Which doesn't help you much.

And, if you are correct and my COWW alloy is the same BHN as yours then that still leaves me with the question. Why at a higher pressure and longer time in the barrel does my rifle not lead?

Mine don't lead either with GC's using my WW alloy and lube up to 2K fps in my Longbranch, Huquavarna and K-31. I run my 30-30 at 1750 fps with no issues either. I have not tried Hi-Tek in my rifles. No need. If it doesn;t work in my 9MM it won;t work in my rifles either. NOTE recently I ran GC 9MM with Hi Tek with no leading for the first time. Without GC's though HI-Tek has been a train wreck when shot without GC's.

No offense I am lousy at measuring with the Lee tester. I defer to your abilities as I have none when it comes to using the Lee.

Bob

[Avenger442]

No offense I am lousy at measuring with the Lee tester. I defer to your abilities as I have none when it comes to using the Lee.

Bob

I know exactly what you mean. Holding that tube steady enough to read the width of the indention is tough for these 64 year old hands. There has got to be a solution to it but just haven't come up with it yet.

[Ausglock]

I got a toy microscope off Ebay and use that to hold the tube. you can wind the whole thing up and down to easily read the scale.
Robabank. Do you have a bullet puller?
Can you humour me and pull a loaded bullet and measure the dia?
Compare it to a sized bullet?

[gunoil]

Just wanted to put in my two bobs worth, and I apologise in advance, if my comments offend any folk.

From years of looking at metal alloys, (and at one time even manufacturing wheel weights), and, talking to Lead alloy foundries, it became obvious, that wheel weights, are, and can, vary hugely in composition, and is made as cheaply as possible, to obtain maximum profits.

Composition of these alloy mixtures varies greatly in composition with each manufacturer and even from batch to batch from same manufacturer, and will greatly depend of price/choice/availability of raw materials being used.

Wheel weight are just that, weights, nothing more and nothing less. They do not have to comply to any engineering requirements aside from having a specific weight, and they contain Lead as binder.

I am puzzled, as to where or how was it decided, that wheel weights should be the material of choice in shooting applications and was the ideal alloy for a specific application?

Hardness is only one aspect that seems to me, to be major portion of this whole W/W discussion.

What is totally appearing not to be discussed or included in the overall discussions, that the obturation and sealing aspects, (hydraulic deformation) and engineering properties of all these alloys are totally different, due to variations of composition, and will vary hugely from batch to batch with wheel weights.

Some wheel weight alloys actually crumble/fracture, when they are smashed, and others easily flatten like soft Lead.
Without ability to know the actual alloy composition, nor be aware of the engineering properties of a batch of wheel weight alloy, it becomes a guessing game in trying to get any such alloy to work correctly with engineering requirements .

Also, that is why some quench harden and others will not harden same way or level.

I find it amusing, that it has been implied, that the coating process, must be interfering with hardness of alloy and or also interfering with quench hardening.

"Highly filled" W/W alloy will, and have behaved totally differently, to others, that contain more Lead than fillers, and explains the various hardness being obtained, but also explains why some are used successfully and some do not.

I have tried to cover this subject several times, and tried to contribute, that some wheel weight alloys have "reactive metals" as fillers, and these can cause poorer adhesion, not only to Hi-Tek, but other coatings as well, due the reactions taking place with coatings during bake.

Other lubes, may work, but I seriously doubt that such lubes can compensate or make up for variability of alloy engineering properties.

I have also advised, that many companies, who are trying to get maximum bond to metals, actually Acid pickle surfaces of alloys to remove reactive metals, and also create high surface areas where coatings can bond without the "active metals" interfering.
I am not advising nor recommending that people, suddenly go out and pickle their alloys with acids.
There are much better ways to achieve end results. Many well documented alloying recipes are available produced by people who were successful in making appropriate and suitable alloys.

I really am concerned, that we are trying to "standardise" the coating, and wanting it to work with every possible application.
It also appears to me, that there seems to be less of an interest, of the possibility of the alloy being not suitable for end use application, and the variability of success thereby caused.

It is fully understood, that a lot of folk are trying to save money and do things themselves, and obtaining products/materials that seem or are a bargain.

If success is achieved with those activities, then all is good.

But sometimes, we need to face the unfortunate facts, that savings or expected results, may not be achieved.

Hell yes. Thanks! l quit making igots. I buy foundry igots. And some coated hitek from same place. Wish l had done it long time ago.

[Shotgundrums]

Trev, anyone...ever notice if you have an older batch of mix made up, the smell is different? Just an observation. I keep unused coating inside the house. Still works great... No change. I also use mek almost exclusively now.

[robertbank]

I got a toy microscope off Ebay and use that to hold the tube. you can wind the whole thing up and down to easily read the scale.
Robabank. Do you have a bullet puller?
Can you humour me and pull a loaded bullet and measure the dia?
Compare it to a sized bullet?

Will do. Give me an hour or so.

Bob

[HI-TEK]

Will do. Give me an hour or so.

Bob

Hi Bob,
I think that Trev would be counting ZZZZZZZ's at this point, it is 12.30 am here.
He needs his beauty sleep....lol:bigsmyl2:

[popper]

After 3 boxes of 20Ga, 100 40SW @ 7 yds, point & click practice I decided to try 25 yds. Not to bad for an old man & XD40, resting trigger guard on 4x4. Yes, I had to put my glasses on. 165gr FBTC dark green liquid, ~1000fps. At least all on paper, only 90F today. Isocore & Cu, AC, no leading.
148057

[Avenger442]

After 3 boxes of 20Ga, 100 40SW @ 7 yds, point & click practice I decided to try 25 yds. Not to bad for an old man & XD40, resting trigger guard on 4x4. Yes, I had to put my glasses on. 165gr FBTC dark green liquid, ~1000fps. At least all on paper, only 90F today. Isocore & Cu, AC, no leading.
148057

Popper
Love target photos.

I was shooting the 44 mag Ruger Red Hawk the other day at the range at a box I had with me set at 25 yards. This was seated and standing positions no rest. After about 24 rounds I quit because I was embarrassing myself. It's the first trip to the range with this gun. Hope I get a lot better with it. A woman was sitting two benches down with her three sons. She was shooting 9 mil. I asked her if she wanted to see if she could hit the box. Being just out of the military I thought she might give me an idea of what a little training might do for me. She shot a whole clip at it and only hit it twice. So maybe I'm not as bad a shot as I thought.

Thing is, with the .380 Ruger LCP and a box half the size of the one I was using at 15 yards (about it's max for any accuracy) I would hit it every time.

I have just finished Hi-Teking some bullets for the .44 and will be shooting it soon with those. Report to follow.

[popper]

Just showing the stuff works. At least I got them all on paper, any leading and they wouldn't be. Naysayers can go pound sand. Actually, top of target came loose so I was shooting at the back side. Still pulling wrong on the trigger, have to work on that. My excuse - drenched with sweat and really tired. SIL set me up for a dove shoot so I got to get ready.

[kryogen]

It works with quality alloy, not with scrap alloy.

[popper]

Actually I started with 97/3/1 (Isocore) 50/50 and it still worked, mixed 2:1 coated with gold 1035 it was good to 1750 in 1:7 twist 300BO. Not sure I call isocore 'quality' alloy.

[kryogen]

well it doesnt work with my wheel weights.

[Avenger442]

well it doesnt work with my wheel weights.

I need to ask you the same question I asked Bob. Do you know the BHN hardness of your WW alloy? This is just for my use in case I ever get a 9 mil I will know what alloy to use.

[kryogen]

sorry no clue
and pullet bullets are still 357 (in/out). I use a larger expander. no scraping. pass wipe and smash, with PC or hitek. cured in convection oven with PID.
No sizing before lube, no contamination, placed in ziploc bags. Tried a ton of fixes over 2 years with PC/hitek, never got it to work in my two 9mm. (glock, 92fs).
Worked in my 38 special. sold it.

[robertbank]

I need to ask you the same question I asked Bob. Do you know the BHN hardness of your WW alloy? This is just for my use in case I ever get a 9 mil I will know what alloy to use.

With all do respects, do you think his WW's are going to be any different than mine. There is to my knowledge no significant number of folks making WW's for the North American car market. What nobody seems to want to address is the affect baking the bullets at 400F and then allowing them to air dry, has on the surface hardness of the alloy. Secondly, Hi-Tek has not explained how this product actually works. Is it a substitute for copper plating, forming a barrier between the lead core and the barrel? If so, the hardness of the alloy should make little difference. The fact that in some of the results Kryogen, I and others have reported using GC's to the base has no or little affect on lessening the amount of leading taking place suggests to me the coating is breaking down and not protecting the lead core from the friction of the barrel.

How about we start with how this product is expected to work, Surely the producers of the product can provide that explanation. I am beginning to think the application of the coating is beyond the capabilities of the average caster and is best left with the Commercial boys and their wizardry. If you buy the bullets and they don't lead your gun, perfect. If they do go back to plated or lube. For competitions I can buy FMJ for $105CDN/1000 . For practice I can use lubed bullets that cost me next to noting to cast.

With the exception of 38spl, where I have found the application works well I am done with playing around with the 9MM. Sorry but it just is not worth the effort and the more canards that arise on why the product isn't working has not helped.

.357 - .357
.356 - .356
Tested to versions of sizing.

Take Care

Bob

[Kitika]

I've had abit of trouble with the 9mm. Alox, normal lubes, sized from .355 to .358 I couldn't get them to shoot well with lots of leading and tumbling bullets. Without changing my alloy only which is roofing lead mixed with range pick up and using hytek red copper and sized to .356 I instantly stopped get tumbling bullets. I did still get a little bit of leading with my first few batches but I discovered that I hadn't had them baking long enough and even tho the projectiles passed the smash and wipe test I could easily scratch the coating off with a finger nail. After baking for longer the coating must have fully bonded and now they work great! That's my discoveries so far, my next projects are coating for the 30-30 and 45-70.

[Avenger442]

With all do respects, do you think his WW's are going to be any different than mine. There is to my knowledge no significant number of folks making WW's for the North American car market. What nobody seems to want to address is the affect baking the bullets at 400F and then allowing them to air dry, has on the surface hardness of the alloy. Secondly, Hi-Tek has not explained how this product actually works. Is it a substitute for copper plating, forming a barrier between the lead core and the barrel? If so, the hardness of the alloy should make little difference. The fact that in some of the results Kryogen, I and others have reported using GC's to the base has no or little affect on lessening the amount of leading taking place suggests to me the coating is breaking down and not protecting the lead core from the friction of the barrel.

How about we start with how this product is expected to work, Surely the producers of the product can provide that explanation. I am beginning to think the application of the coating is beyond the capabilities of the average caster and is best left with the Commercial boys and their wizardry. If you buy the bullets and they don't lead your gun, perfect. If they do go back to plated or lube. For competitions I can buy FMJ for $105CDN/1000 . For practice I can use lubed bullets that cost me next to noting to cast.

With the exception of 38spl, where I have found the application works well I am done with playing around with the 9MM. Sorry but it just is not worth the effort and the more canards that arise on why the product isn't working has not helped.

.357 - .357
.356 - .356
Tested to versions of sizing.

Take Care

Bob

Bob
Understand, if can't get it to work go back to what did. It is probably what I would do.

Joe with Hi-Tek has corrected me on a couple of occasions when I first started coating with it. It was my impression that at some point the coating might act as a jacket or at least like a plated bullet. But Joe said no, it was created to be a dry lubricant between the bullet and the barrel not intended to be plating not intended to be a jacket.

[HI-TEK]

Bob

Joe with Hi-Tek has corrected me on a couple of occasions when I first started coating with it. It was my impression that at some point the coating might act as a jacket or at least like a plated bullet. But Joe said no, it was created to be a dry lubricant between the bullet and the barrel not intended to be plating not intended to be a jacket.


You are correct,
The Hi-Tek coatings were never designed to replace Jacketed ammo, nor act as a jacketing of some sort, and the coatings, are certainly not designed to make up shortfalls of non suitable alloys or other manufacturing or use problems associated with non specific alloys.

The coating is specifically designed to be a dry, bonded lube, and, to separate Alloy and Bore.
The added benefits are, that the coatings significantly reduces Lead contact and contamination, is non transferring to surfaces and hands, and is very suitable for reloading machinery which remains clean.
The multiple coats, form a barrier surface on the alloy, and also reflects heat from burning gun powder away from alloy .
This heat reflection ability and heat stability of the coating, was demonstrated on a video made by Gateway Bullets, which is available on their website.
One parameter, that has had very little discussion is, that the coating, (OLd Gold) was tested against Copper plated projectiles to examine Atomised airborne Lead levels being produced.
Independent certified tests, demonstrated, that the coating met both US and Aus. health regulatory requirements for Atomised Lead emissions and was comparable to Copper plated projectiles.
I have not had any other lubes, or coatings that were able to produce such results.
Despite the Hi-Tek coatings not acting as Jacketing, it has found its way into many end uses, where normally jacketed ammo was the only choice, and, Cast alloys were never even considered and was discouraged by gun manufacturers.
I cannot understand, why, 10's of thousands of people use coated cast alloys in 9mm without any problems, and despite that, there are a few, who seem not be successful in same end use.
Most curious.

[robertbank]

You are correct,
The Hi-Tek coatings were never designed to replace Jacketed ammo, nor act as a jacketing of some sort, and the coatings, are certainly not designed to make up shortfalls of non suitable alloys or other manufacturing or use problems associated with non specific alloys.

The coating is specifically designed to be a dry, bonded lube, and, to separate Alloy and Bore.
The added benefits are, that the coatings significantly reduces Lead contact and contamination, is non transferring to surfaces and hands, and is very suitable for reloading machinery which remains clean.
The multiple coats, form a barrier surface on the alloy, and also reflects heat from burning gun powder away from alloy .
This heat reflection ability and heat stability of the coating, was demonstrated on a video made by Gateway Bullets, which is available on their website.
One parameter, that has had very little discussion is, that the coating, (OLd Gold) was tested against Copper plated projectiles to examine Atomised airborne Lead levels being produced.
Independent certified tests, demonstrated, that the coating met both US and Aus. health regulatory requirements for Atomised Lead emissions and was comparable to Copper plated projectiles.
I have not had any other lubes, or coatings that were able to produce such results.
Despite the Hi-Tek coatings not acting as Jacketing, it has found its way into many end uses, where normally jacketed ammo was the only choice, and, Cast alloys were never even considered and was discouraged by gun manufacturers.
I cannot understand, why, 10's of thousands of people use coated cast alloys in 9mm without any problems, and despite that, there are a few, who seem not be successful in same end use.
Most curious.

The product would appear then to be a lubricant that requires to be properly bonded to the core. A properly sized bullet coated properly should work. If it doesn't then it has not been properly applied. I find that odd given the fact I have coated 38spl and 9MM bullets at the sane time...one works well..one doesn't.

Joe if you are suggesting by the high lighted quote above there is some kind of conspiracy going on here, you do the board and yourself a huge disservice.

Avenger442 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?34296-Avenger442) Yes you are absolutely correct. I will though more likely try the commercially made product in 9MM if it is less expensive than plated. The product does perform in the 38spl with characteristics that are beneficial to my requirements ie less smoke.

Take Care

Bob
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png

[Shotgundrums]

If all Hitek coating avenues are covered, remaining shortfalls are more likely circumstantial with the firearm or barrel. Joe, the hitek coating is phenomenal; It works great!! I know Hitek coating was never designed to replace a jacket..nor should it. Then again, neither was copper plating. Copper plated projectiles can lead barrels something fierce if propelled at too high a velocity...stripping can occur when considering twist rate and powder burn rate, etc. Simply put, plated is cheaper for the average consumer end use as opposed to jacketed.
As I stated and as have you, Hitek was never designed as a jacket substitute. But, what if Hitek coating could be evolved into something more impervious to those certain "barrel circumstances." Every once in a while we discover certain things about this coating that were once unknown. For instance, it was once thought that if baking Hitek too long it would become embrittled. Later experimentation has proved the opposite is true and that the polymeric process continues with prolonged baking... I fact, just the other day (and for self amusement), I pulled a slug out that sat in my oven for months through numerous baking sessions. Smashed it flat as a quarter without flaking, as I knew it would.
Hitek works great, and I love it. However, if this evolved into something more immune to those certain, and sometime unavoidable circumstances, holy sh**... The Grail has been uncovered, and man has finally turned lead into gold.

[BBQJOE]

Hi Tek has been awesome for me in 9mm and .44. I tried so many different lubes. The 45/45/10 worked the best, but was not all that much better than straight alox.
Since getting into Hi Tek gold, I have almost zero leading with 2-3 coats.
Thanks Hi Tek!

[Michael J. Spangler]

I just got a Skinner peep for my 1895 so now I can do some decent testing for an accurate load with the lee 405 grain. I have some coated 2X with gold and coated 2X with red copper.
My next batch is going to be coated 3X. I'll use that as a standard for all of my coating from now on. I do pretty thin coats so the 3X seems to work best for me. I'll try some mid range 45-70 with the 2X coated this week and after that it will all be 3X. I'm dying to see the results. So far I've shot mostly 12 grains of unique with the Hi-Tek, all of my hotter loadings have been with C-Red from White Label Lubes. I'll keep you all updated

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=robertbank;3364918]

Joe if you are suggesting by the high lighted quote above there is some kind of conspiracy going on here, you do the board and yourself a huge disservice.

Hi Bob,
I cant see any highlighted areas.
Please understand, no one is implying any conspiracy here at all.
Hopefully my comments should not have implied such with my chosen words.

I just cant get my head around why, we cant seem to solve the problems in this few cases, when it is known, that the coating are being used successfully by many, in 9mm applications.
I know how frustrating it is and is also very difficult, as I am on other side of the world, and, I am trying to help.

[Ausglock]

It is the WW Alloy...FFS........Not Rocket Science...
If it doesn't work for you, then move on to something that does.

[kryogen]

I am trying to get in contact with a local foundry to get hardball alloy and test again. Got no answer so far.

[Avenger442]

Just as a note, tested the BHN on coated bullets for the 44 mag and special they came out 11 BHN. This alloy is clip on wheel weight with 2% tin added. I tested it a little early so it may come up a bit. Have too much on my plate to work with hobbies this week and first of next week so will not be loading up and testing until after then. Also tested BHN on some 45s cast with 49% wheel weigh; 49% soft lead from stick on weights with 2% tin it came in at 10 BHN which was a surprise to me. I had expected around 9 BHN. These were hollow points cast and coated before the 44s. Both were air cooled when cast and air cooled when baked. Going to be my first attempt with handguns in the Hi-Tek.

Believe the 45s will be OK in the colt and 1911. I hope the 44s survive the 44 mag.

Have a new 44 hollow point mold with gas check that I don't have handles or gas checks for yet. Going to try to use the 49/49/2 alloy and Hi-Tek in it hoping the gas check will makeup for the difference in hardness.

Will report back.

[Gremlin460]

I have been using HiTek going on 2 and a bit years, with no 9mm problems after I sorted my process and oven out at the beginning. That was until the last batch I did.
The last batch gave me some horror leading. In fact it leaded that bad that you could pull lead out with a dental pick.
This had me totaly stumped. I eventually put it down to drying on a afternoon with high humidity.
Recycled the casts and started again..
again I had a massive failure of the coating, or so I thought.
Lead from muzzle 3/4 of the way down the bore and a target that looked like I had hit it with a shotgun.
Step by Step I checked everything, the oven, mold, coating (threw the mix batch away and remixed fresh), fresh acetone.
Rechecked sizing dies, then loaded and pulled 100, checking for crimp swaging or shaving when seating..

Everything came up correct or close to it.

I consulted the notepad I use when casting and noticed for the first time, I had added 3 muffin ingots of pure lead , 3 more than I have done in the past.
I am now of the firm belief that I mixed myself below the nessesary ratio for my 9mm.
So this week I shall recycle the 2500 coated projectiles. Once the are back into liquid form I will let the pot cool off, drop out the solid slug, weigh it and add 2% tin from the foundry to bring the mix back up. I will probably end up close to 3% but that's fine, not enough to be brittle.

In my honest opinion WW,s are highly inconsistent in their makeup, and it probably is in our best interest to add a percent or two of tin. That way we know for sure it has the minimum 2%.

[Avenger442]

In my honest opinion WW,s are highly inconsistent in their makeup, and it probably is in our best interest to add a percent or two of tin. That way we know for sure it has the minimum 2%.

Grem
I agree. My hardness testing of clip ons when they are air cooled both from the mold and after coating are coming up between 10-12 BHN. If I add pure lead 50/50 it will drop it down into the 9-10 range. I can add 2% tin to clip on and it seems to be more consistently 12 BHN. I can add the tin water drop at cast and after each coat and get 14-16. I can add the tin, magnum shot, water drop at cast and coat and get max so far 18 BHN. I can alloy 49% clip on with 49% linotype and 2% tin and get it to around 21 BHN. At least in my clip on wheel weights, there seems to be about a two BHN inconsistency.

For those of you using foundry it is just a more expensive way to go with less time spent. For what cost you $20, if you have it shipped, I can get same BHN for about $2 plus a little more time. There is no right or wrong in this it is just advantage with foundry is "certified hardness" and less time and with wheel weights it's finding the way to produce the hardness and not spending as much money. In the end it is all same BHN. For guys getting their wheel weights for free it is less than $2.

[zomby woof]

I have been using HiTek going on 2 and a bit years, with no 9mm problems after I sorted my process and oven out at the beginning. That was until the last batch I did. The last batch gave me some horror leading. In fact it leaded that bad that you could pull lead out with a dental pick. This had me totaly stumped. I eventually put it down to drying on a afternoon with high humidity. Recycled the casts and started again.. again I had a massive failure of the coating, or so I thought. Lead from muzzle 3/4 of the way down the bore and a target that looked like I had hit it with a shotgun. Step by Step I checked everything, the oven, mold, coating (threw the mix batch away and remixed fresh), fresh acetone. Rechecked sizing dies, then loaded and pulled 100, checking for crimp swaging or shaving when seating.. Everything came up correct or close to it. I consulted the notepad I use when casting and noticed for the first time, I had added 3 muffin ingots of pure lead , 3 more than I have done in the past. I am now of the firm belief that I mixed myself below the nessesary ratio for my 9mm. So this week I shall recycle the 2500 coated projectiles. Once the are back into liquid form I will let the pot cool off, drop out the solid slug, weigh it and add 2% tin from the foundry to bring the mix back up. I will probably end up close to 3% but that's fine, not enough to be brittle. In my honest opinion WW,s are highly inconsistent in their makeup, and it probably is in our best interest to add a percent or two of tin. That way we know for sure it has the minimum 2%. I ran into the same problem recently with my 9mm loads. I used alloy I thought was hard but turned out to be very soft. I ran a 2500 piece batch and coated three times. It leaded bad, just like you. I'm reluctant to remelt. I've found that adding a pop can gas check solves the leading problem and I can use the boolits. I figure it takes less time to add the check than casting all over again. The same boolit with a harder alloy and same coating works just great. Those soft boolits work great out of my revolver at around 700 fps with no leading.

[kryogen]

I ran into the same problem recently with my 9mm loads. I used alloy I thought was hard but turned out to be very soft. I ran a 2500 piece batch and coated three times. It leaded bad, just like you. I'm reluctant to remelt. I've found that adding a pop can gas check solves the leading problem and I can use the boolits. I figure it takes less time to add the check than casting all over again. The same boolit with a harder alloy and same coating works just great. Those soft boolits work great out of my revolver at around 700 fps with no leading.

Gas checks didnt fix it for me. It helped reduce leading, but it still streaked.
I don't blame it on the hitek, I blame it on the alloy.

Maybe I'll have to shoot this alloy with lube if it's all that works.

[Gremlin460]

Had a fantastic sit down conversation on the phone with a lady from a Foundry, its a family run concern and they have been at it for over 40 years where they are....
When I explained I was looking for a source of tin, preferably granulated for ease of metering, she spent the next hour educating me not only on the tin but the antimony, both of which she can supply me with. As much as I want.
She also explained it was best as a hobby smelter to buy the antimony in lead sticks that have 20% . Simply due to the fact that getting pure antimony into the lead fluid requires higher heat initially. Hot enough to cross the boarder where the lead would likely start to fume.
To avoid this, they produce these sticks at 20% ratio, to make it "safer" to add.

I have an invitation now to drop by and she will sort my BHN problem out with ease. I am a happy camper!!

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Gremlin460;3369088]Had a fantastic sit down conversation on the phone with a lady from a Foundry, its a family run concern and they have been at it for over 40 years where they are....

If they were Northern Smelters, they should also know about the coatings.
I have had many discussions with them on alloying matters, as well as the coatings.
Tests were done by them, to try and obtain/blend, an "Ideal" alloy for rifles and high velocity applications.
They are the ones who did the smash tests on various alloys and had many surprises with results when they did tests on various alloy mixes.
They eventually made a couple of alloys, that was to be tested with rifle use, and they were happy with both hardness, and deforming capability without fracturing or disintegrating.
Very nice people, great to do business with them.

[Gremlin460]

If they were Northern Smelters, they should also know about the coatings.
I have had many discussions with them on alloying matters, as well as the coatings.
Tests were done by them, to try and obtain/blend, an "Ideal" alloy for rifles and high velocity applications.
They are the ones who did the smash tests on various alloys and had many surprises with results when they did tests on various alloy mixes.
They eventually made a couple of alloys, that was to be tested with rifle use, and they were happy with both hardness, and deforming capability without fracturing or disintegrating.
Very nice people, great to do business with them.

Indeed they are and I shall be visiting them tomorrow..

[kryogen]

the issue with quality alloy, is that I can buy it for the same price that buying plated commercial bullets would cost....

[HI-TEK]

the issue with quality alloy, is that I can buy it for the same price that buying plated commercial bullets would cost....

As per advice from Gremlin, alloys with high levels of Antimony and or Tin are possibly available from them, in small lots, so you can modify/blend your own alloys, to suitable hardness, and eliminate high cost of buying quality alloys pre-made.
From indications, buying small amounts of Antimony/Lead concentrates, and adding that to your brew, seems far cheaper than buying pre-made alloys in larger quantities, simply due to much less being required to do the job.
That way, you can use your W/W and get a reasonable alloy at fairly low cost.

[robertbank]

It is the WW Alloy...FFS........Not Rocket Science...
If it doesn't work for you, then move on to something that does.

Not quite and it isn't a case of moving on, it is more like going back to. Nor is it a simple case of to soft of an alloy. If the alloy works with regular lube it should work with Hi-Tek. Some here have managed to make the alloy you refer to work surprising enough and with some time on my hands in a week or so I intend to try a slightly different approach.

Joe I know you are trying to help and it is appreciated.

I would hold off adding in your instructions to use harder alloy until we do some more work.

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

Not quite and it isn't a case of moving on, it is more like going back to. Nor is it a simple case of to soft of an alloy. If the alloy works with regular lube it should work with Hi-Tek. Some here have managed to make the alloy you refer to work surprising enough and with some time on my hands in a week or so I intend to try a slightly different approach.

Joe I know you are trying to help and it is appreciated.

I would hold off adding in your instructions to use harder alloy until we do some more work.

Take Care

Bob

Hi Bob,
Thanks much for your input.
You are correct, some, or many, have had success with using W/W and the coatings.
Also, if standard lubes had worked, and or prevented Leading on the same alloys, the coatings should also provide such reduction in Leading as well.
I am faced with the difficulty of not knowing all the success details, such as alloy hardness, etc etc, and then, trying to provide some direction to folks that have not had success.
I am also relying on advice being provided by some folk, who had previously tried to use W/W and were not successful.
It is a very difficult area for me to obtain and compare all results in detail, to be 100% confident to advise what alloy will work and what alloys wont.

I am aware, that coating had prevented Leading in many different applications, from 700ft.sec up to to 3600ft/sec velocities, but success was with totally different alloy mixtures and specifications.
That is why I am at a loss, why there has been large volume success with people using coated cast 9mm, being used successfully, both with quality alloy and W/W, then, a few having non resolvable results and failures with similar applications.
Your work and contributions have been highly valued, and appreciated, and am looking forward to your further work and results in this area.

[HI-TEK]

Indeed they are and I shall be visiting them tomorrow..

How was your visit?

[Gremlin460]

How was your visit?

Well, eye opening would be an understatement..
.
I am now of the opinion, that while COWW will function in 9mm it is so close to the lower limit of BHN we all are playing Russian-roulette when casting with just WW only.
This also explains why occasionally we find leading that we did not have the batch before. It would be very easy to jump to the conclusion that it was caused by "old PC Powder batch" or "old HT Mixture" or oven must have been "off" a little.

In reality WW makers only care about weight and will throw the cheapest nastiest components in, they have ZERO care on the make up, if its contaminated with (name your own poison) they don't care. The reason WW have on average 3% tin, is due to the fact that is the minimum amount necessary for the end product to maintain its shape and grip on the steel clip that holds the weight to the rim. Even then they fall off.
I bought some ingots that are 20% antimony, and a handful of thimble sized pure tin pellets. VERY good price too I might add.

Now with some experimentation I should be able to lift the quality of my WW to around 15/16 BHN before water dropping.

I do not need perfect 2/6/92 mix, I do not shoot competively, other than with friends. I get my WW for free. if it costs me $4 a pot to make it into a stable,non-leading, better quality end product, then so be it. Out of each pot I get roughly 1500 casts.
If you want to do the maths $4 of 1500 better casts go ahead.

The tin thimble ingots cost me $1 each, the 2 20% antimony ingots were 13.20 per lb. I bought $40 worth.
This should last around 10 pots worth.

In the next few days I will have time to clean out the pot, and cast some with the "modified" mix. Coat and shoot.
As they say "the truth is in the barrel"

I also said Hello from you Joe.

My next project is to design and make a simple hardness tester, I will test what is currently left in the pot, against some pure, also against one of these ingots so I can get some indication of where I currently am in the BHN stakes and where I move too.

[Redwoode]

Please excuse my lack of experience in these matters but why wouldnt coww be marginal and causing occasional coating problems with 40sw also?

[HI-TEK]

Well, eye opening would be an understatement..
.
I am now of the opinion, that while COWW will function in 9mm it is so close to the lower limit of BHN we all are playing Russian-roulette when casting with just WW only.
This also explains why occasionally we find leading that we did not have the batch before. It would be very easy to jump to the conclusion that it was caused by "old PC Powder batch" or "old HT Mixture" or oven must have been "off" a little.

In reality WW makers only care about weight and will throw the cheapest nastiest components in, they have ZERO care on the make up, if its contaminated with (name your own poison) they don't care. The reason WW have on average 3% tin, is due to the fact that is the minimum amount necessary for the end product to maintain its shape and grip on the steel clip that holds the weight to the rim. Even then they fall off.
I bought some ingots that are 20% antimony, and a handful of thimble sized pure tin pellets. VERY good price too I might add.

Now with some experimentation I should be able to lift the quality of my WW to around 15/16 BHN before water dropping.

I do not need perfect 2/6/92 mix, I do not shoot competively, other than with friends. I get my WW for free. if it costs me $4 a pot to make it into a stable,non-leading, better quality end product, then so be it. Out of each pot I get roughly 1500 casts.
If you want to do the maths $4 of 1500 better casts go ahead.

The tin thimble ingots cost me $1 each, the 2 20% antimony ingots were 13.20 per lb. I bought $40 worth.
This should last around 10 pots worth.

In the next few days I will have time to clean out the pot, and cast some with the "modified" mix. Coat and shoot.
As they say "the truth is in the barrel"

I also said Hello from you Joe.

My next project is to design and make a simple hardness tester, I will test what is currently left in the pot, against some pure, also against one of these ingots so I can get some indication of where I currently am in the BHN stakes and where I move too.

Gremlin,
Thanks for the update with your visit at Northern Smelters.
From all contacts I have had with them, and, from comments by commercial users/buyers of their alloys, I have heard nothing but great reports.
They certainly look after all customers small or large, and seem to cater for specific needs.
With W/W, as I have tried to explain and state on several of my blogs, and can be confirmed by many such manufacturers like Northern Smelters, your description is fairly close to the mark, "playing Russian Roulette" with trying to use W/W as an alloy for high energy use, is a bit of a guessing game, without ability to produce a standard and "known" composition alloy, that has the required engineering properties.
As you indicated, it is easier to simply try to blame/infer oven problems, coating problem etc etc, than to blame variability of alloys being used.

With other alloy matters, I had discussions with European company, who tested the Hi-Tek coating with Forensic needs/matters in mind, to determine if the coating had interfered with forensic testing and analysis, mainly for law enforcement reasons..
Apparently, the Hi-Tek coating passed tests that were conducted.
I am hoping to get details of tests soon.

I was also advised, about a process, where an alloy of very high quality, and extremely even weighted pellets was being produced, by extrusion process,
that used no Tin, but only Lead and Antimony as an alloy, so cost of alloy manufacture is very low as compared to 92:6:2 alloy.
These extruded pellets, were coated with two very thin coatings using Hi-Tek, worked well, and alloy was about 15-16 hardness, and no Leading.
Again, I am waiting on actual test results written up in English, translated from I believe, a German report which I hopefully get authority to post.

[Ausglock]

Please excuse my lack of experience in these matters but why wouldnt coww be marginal and causing occasional coating problems with 40sw also?

40 cal is a high pressure loading and really likes harder alloy.
I have had no luck with softer alloys around the 8 to 10 BHN mark.

[Humbo]

From previous comments about WW alloys around the world, I can tell that we are blessed with a richer and more uniform alloy up here in Scandinavia. Lead WW's were prohibited more than 10 years ago, maybe this was before they started melting down every kind of lead scrap, dead horses and whatnot to use as wheel weights. I've gone through probably around 6-7 metric tons of the stuff, and it never turned up softer than than the typical announced BHN of 12 for newly casts. Just for kicks I measured the hardness of differently aged WW's that I have in my stack, and the results were surprising. A couple of weeks ago I melted down a small 150 kg batch, and they already measured 13.5 BHN. I then measured some of the oldest stuff I have, it probably dates at least 4-5 years back, and the BHN was a whopping 22. Ingots are all air cooled, without exceptions. I don't expect all of my aged WW alloy being that hard, but the point is, I've never came across WW alloy that has been softer than what was long considered the norm at 12-14 BHN, depending on age. So with my alloy I don't expect much trouble using Hitek, and I'm eager to give it a go.

To say that all WW alloy in general is s**t, is nonsense. For my use, which also includes hunting, hardball and alloys with similar antimony contents seem to be a bit too brittle. WW alloys can be heat treated to withstand rifle velocities, and still have the malleable qualities of an alloy half the hardness. Shooting game with a hard and brittle bullet is usually not recommended.

[Ausglock]

Well... Australian WW is no good for use in high pressure rounds like 9mm and 40cal.
But... whatever floats your boat..

[HI-TEK]

age. So with my alloy I don't expect much trouble using Hitek, and I'm eager to give it a go.

To say that all WW alloy in general is s**t, is nonsense. For my use, which also includes hunting, hardball and alloys with similar antimony contents seem to be a bit too brittle. WW alloys can be heat treated to withstand rifle velocities, and still have the malleable qualities of an alloy half the hardness. Shooting game with a hard and brittle bullet is usually not recommended.

You are very fortunate, that you have access to reasonable W/W alloys.
Unfortunately when it was blogged, that W/W were is Sc..tt, I suppose it was really meant for areas where the alloys are not so controlled in quality or performance.
Alloys here are very poor quality and unreliable.

I agree with you about hard bullet frangibility aspects. You don't want to try and find and pick out fine lumps of fragmented alloy.
That is one of the reasons why, we worked closely with alloy maker here to come up with an alloy, that was OK to use for high velocity applications, and also provided as close as possible to ideal requirements, without breaking up when used with high energy loads.
The alloy makers, were very surprised with some of the poor results with simply smashing an experimental alloy with a hammer.
Alloys that were expected to be Ok, performed very badly with distortion and broke apart with smash tests.
I am sure, that many folk would love to have your alloy supply as good as what you describe.

[Gremlin460]

Maybe I did not explain myself to clearly before..
I have been using straight COWW for near 2 year straight, and have had only occasional leading. Now my last batch I cast, I added near 50% pure by accident and dropped the BHN significantly. It leaded that bad I could physically remove lead from the muzzle rifling with a dental pick.

Now if I dumped that mix and went back to straight WW I probably would get only the occasional leading as per before.
BUT, and here is my overall point, if our COWW's are that close to the limit between leading or clean fire, then it stands to reason that I address the issue to make sure my casts are of better quality.

I highly doubt there is an industry standard that WW's need to meet, unlike other lead products such as used for medical or transport of radioactive material. I also doubt that WW's makers were/are that diligent in the make up of their lead. I also doubt that they only use new fresh mined material. They would be buying the vast amount of their lead from recyclers, it would be the most financially smart thing to do.
Therefore, I feel safe in my opinion the WW quality would vary drastically from one ingot making session to another.
Indeed this sentiment was echoed by the people at the foundry I went too earlier this week.

You yourself have proved this by saying you have tested lead that varies from 12 all the way to a whopping 22. Bearing in mind that hardball is rated at 16. 22 is very hard and is equivalent to Linotype. I find it unusual that you have WW made from Linotype, or at least its equivalent in BHN.

Be that as it may, my original post was to share with other coaters that I had screwed up and by adding pure to the pot, dropped the BHN of my cast or what I would guesstimate it to be, to around 7-8 and they leaded extremely badly. I am now trying to assist the supply of WW I have collected over the months to reach around 14 bhn . If I can get it to that point I feel I will have enough distance from the leading minimum point to be kind to my barrel.

[robertbank]

Just as a point of reference I have driven .308 and .303 Brit GC'd water quenched WW alloyed bullets to 2200fps with no leading using regular Felix lube. It is fine to say the alloy must be harder than pure lead but there is no need or should not be a need to go to Linotype hardness for pistol cartridges such as the 9MM and 40cal particularly if they are aided with a GC.

I can however buy into under sized bullets or poor application of the product. As Ausglock has pointed out it isn't or should not be rocket science.

My recent tests have put on hold as the tungsten plug in my Dillon 9MM Sizing die just decided to part company with the die body and is presently wrapped around a Blazer case! Phoning Dillon as I type this.

Bob

[Humbo]

Actually there are some hardness requirements for wheel weights, if not I doubt they would bother putting any arsenic, tin and antimony in the mix at all. If too soft, the lead simply would not withstand the rotational forces and stay on the clip, especially with the higher weights. Tape-on weights are usually made from pure or close to pure lead, but the clip-ons are considerably harder. I get most of my WW's from lorries and tractors, and they typically range from 100g to 500g each. A 500g wheel weight is subjected to tremendous rotational forces when a vehicle moves at 22 m/s, and a soft alloy simply wouldn't cut it. I don't know the regulations in other parts of the world, but that's how it is here. I don't know where the wheel weights are manufactured, but probably in Sweden, Germany or some other car manufacturing country in Europe.

If you don't have any equipment to measure hardness yourself, then I agree it's better to sweeten the pot with alloy of certified hardness. Earlier I always mixed 1 part Linotype with 3 parts WW's to get hardball alloy or close to it, but it was just way harder than necessary for most applications, and simply a waste of a richer alloy. If I can get stuff to work with WW's, maybe with only a little tin added, then I can take comfort in the fact that I wouldn't run out of alloy for a good while.