simple Hi-Tek coating

[Ausglock]

[QUOTE=Love Life;2782404 I only use virgin starline for those loads and only trash it after use.[/QUOTE]
What????????
10mm once fired?????? and thrown away??????
Dude, send them to me!!!

[Wrbjr]

OK. I have been using a New Hardline Indutries 45 230gn RN 4 cavity mold for the last few days.
Here are some photos of the results.
The green is the Kryptonite Green.
The red is a new experimental Candy Apple red. 122K/1035
They are both liquid coatings.

5-1-7 mix 2 coats.
Wrbjr.
Take note of the colour and the coverage against yours.
I mix 50mls of colour, 10 mls of catalyst and 75mls of Acetone.

Please re-check your ratios. 40 really needs 15BHN alloy (2.6.92)
Here are the 45 230gn RN loaded for firing tomorrow.
Alloy for my 45 pills is range reclaim alloy. 10 to 12BHN.

105184

Those are some beeutiful projectiles of the Galena Galaxy. I hope to get there soooooon. Maybe today. Gonna start again today. Tiny batches...
105185

105186

Those are some beeutiful projectiles of the Galena Galaxy. I hope to get there soooooon. Maybe today. Gonna start again today. Tiny batches...

[HI-TEK]

Once I have baked these.... they are done? No way to salvage this batch?

If you have baked first coating & alloy at 190-200C for about 10 minutes, and you did not get best adhesion to alloy, you cant fix problem, and it is a re-melt.
Trying to then add more coats to less than perfect first coat, is simply waste of time and product, as additional coats wont fix first coat failures just wastes materials and time lost..
Dont rush things, and do small batches until you get your process right.

[Wrbjr]

Ok... shook the color til me arms were going numb... mixed up a 5-1-7 mixture this time.... much more color on the goobers. How does this look?

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/yyy001_zpscd85141e.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/yyy001_zpscd85141e.jpg.html)

[Wrbjr]

If you have baked first coating & alloy at 190-200C for about 10 minutes, and you did not get best adhesion to alloy, you cant fix problem, and it is a re-melt.
Trying to then add more coats to less than perfect first coat, is simply waste of time and product, as additional coats wont fix first coat failures just wastes materials and time lost..
Dont rush things, and do small batches until you get your process right.

Yep, I sent that last batch to the Alox department. Will use them one way or the other. I have started the tiny batch process you speak of. The last tiny batch was applied to 5 pieces of lead. Just 5. Still looks splotchy but what do I know. I also warmed them a couple of degrees as you suggested after swirling them.

[HI-TEK]

Ok... shook the color til me arms were going numb... mixed up a 5-1-7 mixture this time.... much more color on the goobers. How does this look?

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/yyy001_zpscd85141e.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/yyy001_zpscd85141e.jpg.html)

As a first coat, it is a pass.
Now simply dry it well, and before baking at 200C for 10 minutes.
You may warm them with hair dryer to about 25-27C, (just warm to the touch) and then test a few in the oven. Dont bake all and see how first few turn out and post result photos.
This will give better idea of success.

[Wrbjr]

Ok... will do. While I am thinking on it... this drying process.... how long does it take... or rather how soon can I bake them? Dry to the touch? Is it really necessary to wait hours?

[HI-TEK]

Ok... will do. While I am thinking on it... this drying process.... how long does it take... or rather how soon can I bake them? Dry to the touch? Is it really necessary to wait hours?

It simply depends on ambient temperatures and humidity.
Generally solvent thin coat dries quickly, This cools alloy. You can loose 2-3 degrees easily of alloy temperature below normal, with solvent drying.
Cold conditions, and humid, the drying is almost non existent as drying solvent absorbs moisture which is trapped inside coating. This takes a lot to dry, especially if using thick coats.
If ambient temperature is at about 25-30C about 1/2 hour is fine. Some coat and leave overnight, some leave for hours, and all depends on your agenda.
Many simply place wire mesh on a stand above oven to use warm air rising from oven that dries coating and pre-warms alloy. (At this point dont overheat)
The "touch" test dry method is not always reliable, as coating will form a dry hard skin outside, and it feels dry, but it is fooling you into rushing it.
Small amount of moisture trapped in coating, will form super heated steam, which then prevents adhesion, and can also result in fine bubbly (orange peel) surfaces.
Once first coat is bonded well, subsequent coats are not so critical.

[Ausglock]

Umm how much actual coating are you mixing??
I mix about 150mls and use that to coat about 3000 bullets.
Can you post a picture of your mixed coating?

My methodology
Bullet used is a Lee 120gn Conical cast out of Commercially alloyed 2/6/92.
Bullets were cast and left to cool for 24 hours.
Green coating was mixed 50mls of colour, 10mls of 3 Extreme Catalyst and 75mls of Acetone and left to react for 10 minutes.
2Kg of bullets (253 actual bullets) were placed in a plastic 5 litre container.
Bullet Temp was 17 Deg C.
4mls of the black coating was added to the bucket of bullets and swirled until all bullets were evenly coated and Semi dry.
The bullets were then dumped onto a mesh tray to dry.
Bullet Temp was 15 Deg C.
The Tray of coated bullets were then left to air dry for 30 minutes at ambient temp of 17 Deg C.
The oven used for baking is a 48 Litre capacity Convection (fan forced) bench top oven with top and bottom Heating elements.
The oven shelf is located in the centre of the oven compartment.
Oven temp is set at 200 Deg C (verified).
The tray of coated bullets is placed on 25mm high spacers located on the top of the exterior surface to allow the bullets to be warmed (27Deg C)
The oven is activated and allowed to pre-heat to the set temp of 200Deg C.
Once the oven reaches set temp, the tray of bullets is placed in the oven, and the timer set for 10 minutes.
At the 5 minute mark, the oven is opened and the tray of bullets is removed and the tray shaken to agitate the bullets (5 seconds).
The tray is then re-inserted to the oven and left until the timer completes and the oven turns off.
Immediately remove the tray of bullets and allow to cool. A fan may be used to speed up the cooling.
Once the bullets have cooled to ambient temp, one is wiped with acetone on white paper towel for 10 seconds to verify if there is any coating wipe-off.
Another bullet is placed on a steel beam and flattened with a hammer to check for coating flaking off.
If the bullets and coating pass these tests, they get a second coat of coating.
4mls of the black coating was again added to the bucket of bullets and swirled until all bullets were evenly coated and Semi dry.
The bullets were then dumped onto a mesh tray to dry.
Bullet Temp was 15 Deg C.
The Tray of coated bullets were then left to air dry for 30 minutes at ambient temp of 17 Deg C.
Oven temp is set at 200 Deg C (verified).
The tray of coated bullets is placed on 25mm high spacers located on the top of the exterior surface to allow the bullets to be warmed (27Deg C)
The oven is activated and allowed to pre-heat to the set temp of 200Deg C.
Once the oven reaches set temp, the tray of bullets is placed in the oven, and the timer set for 10 minutes.
At the 5 minute mark, the oven is opened and the tray of bullets is removed and the tray shaken to agitate the bullets.
The tray is then re-inserted to the oven and left until the timer completes and the oven turns off.
Immediately remove the tray of bullets and allow to cool. A fan may be used to speed up the cooling.
Once the bullets have cooled to ambient temp, one is wiped with acetone for 10 seconds to verify if there is any coating wipe-off.
Another bullet is placed on a steel beam and flattened with a hammer to check for coating flaking off.
If the bullets and coating pass these tests They are placed in a container for later sizing.

DO NOT use any type of grease, wax, or any sort of lube on the bullets prior to coating or the coating will FAIL !!!!!!!!!
DO NOT heat the bullets prior to baking above 30 Deg C or the coating will FAIL !!!!!!
DO NOT try to bake too many bullets at one time. You will overload the oven and not get the required heat into the bullets to fully bake the coating!!!!!
DO NOT use too much coating on the first coat, or it will fail. Remember… less is more!!!! But too little will cause issues too.
IF coating wipes off after 10 minutes of baking, destroy those bullets and bake another tray and bake for 12 minutes and re-do the wipe off test.
This is the methodology that I have been using for over 12 months of producing coated bullets.

[Love Life]

What????????
10mm once fired?????? and thrown away??????
Dude, send them to me!!!

They look like guppies...

[Ausglock]

They look like guppies...
Just push them through a Lee 40S&W Carbide factory crimp die with the guts removed.
I use a Lee lube sizer die push rod to pust the cases through.
Or send them to me...

[HI-TEK]

Just push them through a Lee 40S&W Carbide factory crimp die with the guts removed.
I use a Lee lube sizer die push rod to pust the cases through.
Or send them to me...

Why dont you also ask Byron, He has heaps.

[Ausglock]

10mm cases are scarce as rocking horse poo here in OZ.

[Love Life]

Just push them through a Lee 40S&W Carbide factory crimp die with the guts removed.
I use a Lee lube sizer die push rod to pust the cases through.
Or send them to me...

I have sectioned guppied and "de-Glocked" brass. I will not fire debulged brass.

[Ausglock]

I have sectioned guppied and "de-Glocked" brass. I will not fire debulged brass.
Well, bag them up and send them down under.
remember who ya mates are....mate... buddy.... pal.... :bigsmyl2:[smilie=s::drinks::mrgreen:

[Wrbjr]

Well another failure. This time although the lead was coated a tad better at 5-1-7 it failed the smash test in a spectacular way. Green sparkles fell like rain from heaven. Back to the drawing board.

[Wrbjr]

Post #3322 shows the last batch before baking... very splotched and patchy coverage. I bought a larger syringe and made a slightly larger batch this time. Coverage is much more liquid and complete.... will let it dry and then see what happens....

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/099e965e-41ad-4669-ae0e-3fc9d0c7e210_zps8cc65e7e.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/099e965e-41ad-4669-ae0e-3fc9d0c7e210_zps8cc65e7e.jpg.html)

[Love Life]

Well, bag them up and send them down under.
remember who ya mates are....mate... buddy.... pal.... :bigsmyl2:[smilie=s::drinks::mrgreen:

Is it legal for me to ship them into Australia? I seriously have about 400 cases (200 starline) that have been fired 1 or 2 times and are a little...bulgy.

[Love Life]

That looks a good bit better on that batch!! They should have a brownish tinge after baking.

[Moonman]

Wrbjr,

They need to be DRY, and DRY is more than just TOUCH DRY.
They need to be DRY under the Feeling Dry coating.

Next as Ausglock told you, DON'T BAKE ALL YOUR BATCH AT ONCE.
Bake a few. TEST, if it's a Failure, adjust to a little LONGER BAKE TIME.
Just make sure your oven temp is ACTUALLY up to CATALYST SET-OFF TEMP).


Keep notes ON YOUR PROCESS, (Temp/Bake Time/Batch size/Coating Mix/ Color, etc.)

Good Luck, You'll get it.

[Wrbjr]

Just took the latest test out of the oven. I did achieve the brown/gold tint. So far so good. Will do the smash test shortly.:popcorn:

[Love Life]

Wonderful! Now water drop after your second coat comes out of the oven and you'll be off to the races...as long as your throat doesn't shave bullets.

[Wrbjr]

However, we failed the smash test big time.

[Love Life]

Dang.


Hmmmm. How long are you baking? For 40's I bake for 12:30.

[Ausglock]

You see how I have listed out everything I do.
Can you do the same?
There is something wrong with your methodology. There has to be.
Tell me how you mix your coating in detail. ie: 5 teaspoons colour, 1 teaspoon catalyst, 7 teaspoons acetone.

This coating is really easy to use. If your mix is right, your temp is right, then you get nice bullets.

Don't try to coat only a few. do at least a handful. I do 2kg (250 9mm bullets) minimum when testing new coatings. any less than this and you get false results due to low metal loadings in the oven, and it tends to over bake and the coating will fail the smash test and the colour darkens.
I need data. I need input. I need photos to try to help.

[HI-TEK]

Well another failure. This time although the lead was coated a tad better at 5-1-7 it failed the smash test in a spectacular way. Green sparkles fell like rain from heaven. Back to the drawing board.

Can you please advise on following details?....
1. How long did you dry, and at what temperature, Was your temperature measured with a thermometer inside your oven, or did you rely on dial setting with temperature?
2. What is your actual oven internal temperatures, and what is temperature swing range during heating?
In other words, what temperatures at which your thermostat turn oven on and off?
3. Can you post picture of first baked projectile? ( The blotchy appearance may not the problem at this stage)
4. How long do you bake, at a set temperature, (thermometer verified temperature) and how much do you load into oven?
5. Measured with a thermometer, how does your temperatures change inside oven, after loading projectiles into the oven, minimum and maximum ?

All of this will help to diagnose what is going on with your coating failures.

[Wrbjr]

I just purchased a third thermometer to see if something is going on there. Pretty close to the others. 3 now... 2 out of 3 are within 20 or 25 degrees F. Using the new one this time.

I have started baking just one or two goobers at a time. The first two batches were 3 lbs each.

The oven variation is approx 10-15 degrees F max...I watch it closely and keep it within that range. I have posted a photo of the first or second baked projectile goober... a page or so back.
As to drying times it varied from 1 hour to 7 or 8 hours. Today the humidity was probably 50% or so. Temps were in the low 80s F. The 2 lead heads going in the oven now have been drying for 4-5 hours now.

The battle continues... I really thought the thermometer was the culprit... but not so sure now. Depends on how critical the temps are. I suppose I could have been maxing out the temps at around 375-380 F if the thermometer I was using is not correct. The new one reads about 20 higher. Will know something in about an hour.

[Wrbjr]

You see how I have listed out everything I do.
Can you do the same?
There is something wrong with your methodology. There has to be.
Tell me how you mix your coating in detail. ie: 5 teaspoons colour, 1 teaspoon catalyst, 7 teaspoons acetone.

This coating is really easy to use. If your mix is right, your temp is right, then you get nice bullets.

Don't try to coat only a few. do at least a handful. I do 2kg (250 9mm bullets) minimum when testing new coatings. any less than this and you get false results due to low metal loadings in the oven, and it tends to over bake and the coating will fail the smash test and the colour darkens.
I need data. I need input. I need photos to try to help.


The last batch I mixed 5-1-7. A small batch of 12.5ml of color to 2.5ml of catalyst and 17.5ml of acetone.

I originally was cooking 3 lbs each load.

Cook time is between 12.5 and 13.5 min....

Now I am just using a couple of bullets at a time... upon recommendation here...

Will post a photo of the last smash test shortly...

Thanks for the input...

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/d66eae7a-7b36-415c-9857-d5c2bde978e4_zpsc4c2b75c.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/d66eae7a-7b36-415c-9857-d5c2bde978e4_zpsc4c2b75c.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

The last batch I mixed 5-1-7. A small batch of 12.5ml of color to 2.5ml of catalyst and 17.5ml of acetone.

I originally was cooking 3 lbs each load.

Cook time is between 12.5 and 13.5 min....

Now I am just using a couple of bullets at a time... upon recommendation here...

Will post a photo of the last smash test shortly...

Thanks for the input...

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/d66eae7a-7b36-415c-9857-d5c2bde978e4_zpsc4c2b75c.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/d66eae7a-7b36-415c-9857-d5c2bde978e4_zpsc4c2b75c.jpg.html)

Which colour are you using?
It seems to me that you did not get alloy up to correct temperature, as colour should change.

If you did get alloy to right temperatures, then you have just invented the Blue coating that was unable to be made...lol

[Wrbjr]

I am using the basic green. Using a new thermometer this time around... doing smash test in a min or two. Will post photo. New thermometer showed this last bake off at 390-400 F.

Still flaking.....

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/0bfcf21f-f47c-429a-96c7-9be163a0a730_zps84592c5f.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/0bfcf21f-f47c-429a-96c7-9be163a0a730_zps84592c5f.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

I am using the basic green. Using a new thermometer this time around... doing smash test in a min or two. Will post photo. New thermometer showed this last bake off at 390-400 F.

Still flaking.....

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/0bfcf21f-f47c-429a-96c7-9be163a0a730_zps84592c5f.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/0bfcf21f-f47c-429a-96c7-9be163a0a730_zps84592c5f.jpg.html)

It is supposed to be Dark Green not black.
I dont know what you are doing with this.
Your oven air temperature may be at 390-400F but is it being fanned internally, or static heat?
How do you measure projectile temperature, and, was the temperature taken near your loaded projectiles?
Did you smash when hot or cold after bake?
Have you contacted your US supplier to get help with your set up?

[Wrbjr]

It is supposed to be Dark Green not black.
I dont know what you are doing with this.
Your oven air temperature may be at 390-400F but is it being fanned internally, or static heat?
How do you measure projectile temperature, and, was the temperature taken near your loaded projectiles?
Did you smash when hot or cold after bake?

It is dark green... not sure why it appears black to you...
The oven is a convection oven... fan on
Thermometer next to projectiles 3rd thermometer.....
Have you contacted your US supplier to get help with your set up?

It is dark green... not sure why it appears black to you...

The oven is a convection oven...

Thermometer next to projectiles 3rd thermometer.....

Smash test after bullet has cooled to ambient temperatures

I have not contacted Donnie as of yet...

[HI-TEK]

It is dark green... not sure why it appears black to you...

The oven is a convection oven... fan on

Thermometer next to projectiles 3rd thermometer.....

Smash test after bullet has cooled to ambient temperatures

I have not contacted Donnie as of yet...

It looks near black or very dark green at my end. May be it is my computer.
The dark green coating should look Green. It is used here by manufacturer also, and also with Donnie, You should try to replicate Donnies finished colour as on his projectiles.
Have you looked at his finished coloured product for comparison purposes?

[Wrbjr]

It looks near black or very dark green at my end. May be it is my computer.
The dark green coating should look Green. It is used here by manufacturer also, and also with Donnie, You should try to replicate Donnies finished colour as on his projectiles.
Have you looked at his finished coloured product for comparison purposes?

It is close to Donnie's, but a bit lighter as this is just the first coat. When I did three coats it was pretty close to his.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I'm no expert but it looks like you're not getting an even finish during the tumble. There appears to be very little product on the bullets.

[Love Life]

I'm no expert but it looks like you're not getting an even finish during the tumble. There appears to be very little product on the bullets.

That's what it looks like. It looks like only minimal coloration is hitting boolit with none of the usual brown tinged protection you normally see.

You gotta shake the stank out of it!! For any batch, I use 5 TBS color, 1 TBS Catalyst, and 9-ish TBS acetone. I add it all to a plastic bug juice bottle that has 2 45 ACP rn boolits in it. I shake the holy living bejesus out of it, pull squirt top, and squirt on to boolits immediately.

I really do not measure how much coating I add to how much boolits. Usually just a squirt to 2-3 handfuls of boolits. I tumble until no color runs in the tumbling dish. As I said, I tumble thick. I tumble in a Folgers coffee can. My stove knob says 425...

[Wrbjr]

That's what it looks like. It looks like only minimal coloration is hitting boolit with none of the usual brown tinged protection you normally see.

You gotta shake the stank out of it!! For any batch, I use 5 TBS color, 1 TBS Catalyst, and 9-ish TBS acetone. I add it all to a plastic bug juice bottle that has 2 45 ACP rn boolits in it. I shake the holy living bejesus out of it, pull squirt top, and squirt on to boolits immediately.

I really do not measure how much coating I add to how much boolits. Usually just a squirt to 2-3 handfuls of boolits. I tumble until no color runs in the tumbling dish. As I said, I tumble thick. I tumble in a Folgers coffee can. My stove knob says 425...

I shake it well... if it isn't in solution with all the shaking I give it.. then it is a solubility problem. I have been a bit stingy on the amount of product I put on the bullets, but I think they should pass the smash test...? I will give it another go tomorrow and get quite generous with the product for the swirling. When I use Alox 45-45-10 I use just a tad as well... it goes a long long way and it seems this product goes even further. However... I am game to try or change up anything. I must be close....

[Love Life]

Maybe you have a bad batch of coating? It's always a probability.

[Wrbjr]

Maybe you have a bad batch of coating? It's always a probability.

Well... that would be an easy fix... not sure how to know. I think the process must not be this difficult... or at least way more forgiving than what I am experiencing so far. Wish someone around here was using the stuff.... would let them give my 1/2 liter a try. Hmmm....

[HI-TEK]

Well... that would be an easy fix... not sure how to know. I think the process must not be this difficult... or at least way more forgiving than what I am experiencing so far. Wish someone around here was using the stuff.... would let them give my 1/2 liter a try. Hmmm....

As I tried to advise, you may be better to discuss those sort of matters with your supplier.
He may just try with a latest batch for comparison purposes, if he cant seem to fix the problem if what you are doing is found OK, and then determine if coating is failing or not.
I have customers who have stock two years old and it still works.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I would try another batch with twice as much coating as you have been using. See how it works out.
Maybe you're just going a little too light on the application.
Good luck.

[Love Life]

I would try another batch with twice as much coating as you have been using. See how it works out.
Maybe you're just going a little too light on the application.
Good luck.

Good idea. It's hard to imagine a bad batch as my coating has been in the unheated/cooled garage for a year and works fine.

[Moonman]

Oven may just not be quite hot enough, almost but just short MAYBE??????

[Wrbjr]

Oven may just not be quite hot enough, almost but just short MAYBE??????

Not a bad suggestion... I have nothing to lose. I may run it up to 415 or 420 and try that. What's the worst that could happen? Flakes... ? Might just work.

[Ausglock]

I agree with Mick and L L. Add more. and use more than 2 bullets. at least 2 hand fulls.
Don't be to much of a scrooge with the coating.
also. mix a bigger batch and use a bit extra catalyst.
Go 5/1.5/7

[Ausglock]

The candy Apple red fired today on the Hardline 45 bullets. Fantastic.

25 yards offhand freestyle has all 20 shots within a 2" group.
Load was 230rn over 4.6gr W231 OAL 32mm
Out of Para GI Expert.

[leadman]

It almost appears he is tumbling the boolits too long or with too little coating.

I use a couple of Digital Volt/Ohm Meters I bought from Walmart that have a thermocouple with them and seems to measure the temperature very well. These are in the auto dept and cost is about $20. This works good since the thermocouple has a very small tip on it and you can actually position the tip on a boolit or very close to it. The thermocouple wire is thin enough to go in the crack between the door and the oven.

[Ausglock]

Leadman. I have one similar with 2 leads with small tips. I actually drill a hole in a few bullets and insert the probe to check alloy core temp during baking.
On 44 and 45 pills I have found 12 minutes to bake a tray works fine. 10 minutes for 9mm etc etc.

There just is not enough colour on these bullets. far too little coating. go heavier with the coating.
Here is my first coat of green before baking.
105266

[Wrbjr]

Ok... new day... new attempt.

I have listened to the voices out there and today mixed up another batch of 5-1-7.5 but much larger.

I put much more material in the swirl container. I swirled it longer... and I put in several handfuls.
These will dry at least 8 hours.
Notice how sloppy wet they are in terms of coverage as opposed to previous attempts that were splotchy and naked looking.
I will cook at a higher temperature even approaching the danger area of 430? I believe that is what I read.
Cross our collective fingers... I feel lucky today.

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/21bd2cd1-da95-4c7a-829b-84dc1dfcbc67_zpsd3af7fe2.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/21bd2cd1-da95-4c7a-829b-84dc1dfcbc67_zpsd3af7fe2.jpg.html)

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/2238de4c-d983-4bf9-97dd-548f1bb604cf_zpsa0b24fe4.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/2238de4c-d983-4bf9-97dd-548f1bb604cf_zpsa0b24fe4.jpg.html)

[Love Life]

Better.

[kweidner]

430 is too high. Mine go 370. If they cross 400 threshhold you are asking for problems unless it is the new red. My first ovens had huge temp swings and that was the culprit. set at 380 it would swing to 410 or so. Caused major drama and me almost giving up. I prevailed in the end and exclusivley use Brevilles now.

[Wrbjr]

430 is too high. Mine go 370. If they cross 400 threshhold you are asking for problems unless it is the new red. My first ovens had huge temp swings and that was the culprit. set at 380 it would swing to 410 or so. Caused major drama and me almost giving up. I prevailed in the end and exclusivley use Brevilles now.


Hmmm, I be conflicted. Most seem to think I am not achieving enough heat... but according to my thermometers I almost always hit 400... or a tad higher. Maybe that is why the coating is brittle and falls off like alum foil flakes?

Hmmm.... maybe the first batch will go in at 370 or so and if that doesn't work the second batch at a bit higher? I am open to all suggestions except for handling snakes. I shoot snakes. Which brings us back to the original problem... having boolits. :bigsmyl2:

[Moonman]

Wrbjr,
You need to find out WHAT YOUR set up does, NOT OTHER PEOPLES.
I went to a BREVILLE oven $250 at Bed/Bath/Beyond, was an on-line $50 off coupon.
I didn't know about the coupon and paid the list $250 and was STILL HAPPY WITH THE OVEN.

Others have had success with lesser ovens, I chose the Breville to eliminate the BS and TIME WASTING.
I didn't have to experiment too much, I didn't have to add and external oven temp controller either.

My Breville ended up set at 400 F to 410 F depending upon the ambient temp of my garage.

Bakes are mostly 10 to 12 minutes (9 MM to 45 ACP).

I had less initial success with Donnie's Dark Green also, the Breville was set at 380 F I believe and was actually slightly TOO LOW.
I prefer the original GOLD and the NEW GOLD 1035 presently. I now coat with Dark Green, Gold, Gold 1035, and Brick Red.

I'm waiting for the DRY Zombie Green to hit the USA.

Ausglock your KRIPO Green and Candy Apple Red (LIQUID MIXES) produced FABULOUS Looking45 230 RN NO LUBE GROOVE Pills.

I started breaking in my HARDLINE INDUSTRIES NO LUBE GROOVE 115 RN YESTERDAY
(WIPED IT OFF, SPRAYED HI-TEK 5OO MOLD RELEASE, and was producing beautiful pills in short order)
No Soap and Water cleaning was performed, paper towel wipe off, HI-TEK 500 Mold Release Sprayed and started casting.

[Ausglock]

Hmmm, I be conflicted. Most seem to think I am not achieving enough heat... but according to my thermometers I almost always hit 400... or a tad higher. Maybe that is why the coating is brittle and falls off like alum foil flakes?

Hmmm.... maybe the first batch will go in at 370 or so and if that doesn't work the second batch at a bit higher? I am open to all suggestions except for handling snakes. I shoot snakes. Which brings us back to the original problem... having boolits. :bigsmyl2:

200Deg C is 390Deg F use this temp for 10 minutes.
any higher in temp will give you issues.
You coating looks better.
Remember... pre-heat the oven to 390 and let it cycle on the themostat before placing the tray of bullets in.

[HI-TEK]

Hmmm, I be conflicted. Most seem to think I am not achieving enough heat... but according to my thermometers I almost always hit 400... or a tad higher. Maybe that is why the coating is brittle and falls off like alum foil flakes?

Hmmm.... maybe the first batch will go in at 370 or so and if that doesn't work the second batch at a bit higher? I am open to all suggestions except for handling snakes. I shoot snakes. Which brings us back to the original problem... having boolits. :bigsmyl2:

I dont know if you have seen these videos. These were made in the US, some time ago, using the dark green coating.
They should provide you the methods used to get successful results.
You may have to watch them a couple of times, with sound, and instructions are simple to follow as well.
Hope these are useful.
Joe

YouTube videos:
Part1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VevKJgHseWc
Part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU7PbbtbAtE

[Wrbjr]

Cooked this one at about 340F to 350F on purpose to see if it would FLAKE as my others did at a shown 390-410 F.

The green flakes on the previous failures were scattered all over the floor where I smashed the piece... nothing this time.

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/558ffd77-9ee2-4a56-85c2-899a58a5d98f_zpsee4a0cfc.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/558ffd77-9ee2-4a56-85c2-899a58a5d98f_zpsee4a0cfc.jpg.html)
http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/01ee83d6-c2a4-4eec-ba26-a641e61eef89_zpsc2194391.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/01ee83d6-c2a4-4eec-ba26-a641e61eef89_zpsc2194391.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

Cooked this one at about 340F to 350F on purpose to see if it would FLAKE as my others did at a shown 390-410 F.

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/558ffd77-9ee2-4a56-85c2-899a58a5d98f_zpsee4a0cfc.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/558ffd77-9ee2-4a56-85c2-899a58a5d98f_zpsee4a0cfc.jpg.html)
http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/01ee83d6-c2a4-4eec-ba26-a641e61eef89_zpsc2194391.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/01ee83d6-c2a4-4eec-ba26-a641e61eef89_zpsc2194391.jpg.html)


Was this first coat?
Did it pass the MEK solvent test?
If it did not pass solvent test, and solvent test starts removing coating, then coating is not fully cured.

If coating is not fully cured, when applying second coat, the second coat, will start to strip off first coat, and make a mess.
It will not work unless each coat passes solvent test and smash tests.

Did you have a look at the videos I sent you?

[Wrbjr]

Solvent test failed. I just finished it. This is the first coat... second boolit in oven now at prescribed 390F. Will report back in a few min... watching videos now... thank you

Yes, I have watched this video several times.

My point of under cooking this projectile was to see if the showering of green flakes was present. As it was absent and although it failed the MEK test as we all thought it would at this temperature... Now I just finished baking one at 380-390F while watching the thermometer for 12 min. It never varied from a low of 380F to a high of 390F. Close as I can keep it. If I was in fact over cooking before and that caused the showering of green flakes... maybe now it will stick? As soon as it cools I will start the tests....

[HI-TEK]

Solvent test failed. I just finished it. This is the first coat... second boolit in oven now at prescribed 390F. Will report back in a few min... watching videos now... thank you

Yes, I have watched this video several times.

Do not keep adjusting heat settings back and forth.

Set your controls at whatever setting temperature will hold at about 200C (plus or minus 10 C)
Allow your oven to get to set temperature.

Then, put back the ones you cooked for another 1 minute, take out quickly one only, (gloves)
cool first and then test.

Another minute later, take out a second one , and cool, and then test.

Keep repeating by taking out one at a time, at 1 minute intervals, and test each one after cooling.

You will end up with a number of cooked products, one minute apart, that will require solvent and smash test after they have cooled.

When youtest each one separately, and get results required, you should then have exactly the time taken to cure the load you placed into the oven and the time required to cure at the set temperature.

All you are doing is monitoring cure against time.

AGAIN.... do not keep adjusting temperature and time together.
Leave temperature settings at same place, and only vary the time inside the oven with your cooking.

[Wrbjr]

Ok will do.

Here is the last one at 380-390F for 12 Min. Passed acetone test.

Smash test? See some flakes that came off... not as many.... but failure.
http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/ppppppp002_zps97d66222.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/ppppppp002_zps97d66222.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

Ok will do.

Here is the last one at 380-390F for 12 Min. Passed acetone test.

Smash test? See some flakes that came off... not as many.... but failure.
http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/ppppppp002_zps97d66222.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/ppppppp002_zps97d66222.jpg.html)

Not cured enough.

This is why I made my suggestions to you previously, to try and determine time required in oven at a set temperature, by taking out quickly, one at a time at 1 minute intervals, and then find out time required inside oven, to when coating is baked correctly.

[Wrbjr]

Starting that procedure now. Thanks...

[Wrbjr]

Here it is.... 13-18 min at 1 min intervals. All passed acetone test. All had a bit of flaking. Hammered them on a steel anvil. The last one seems the best at 18? In the 2 part video when the guy did the smash test he had some flaking as well.... I thought we could have no flaking at all? Maybe I should load up a few and see how they do.

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y441/bryan578/HHHHH001_zps33394d6d.jpg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/bryan578/media/HHHHH001_zps33394d6d.jpg.html)s

[Rich22]

First time using this in a very long time today and having a couple problems. Using black 5-1-7 ratio. 135gr 9mm no lube groove. 400 for 10 minutes per thermometer ( well as close as possible, oven has some temp swing issues I cannot seem to solve). Pass the acetone test, pass smash test but some is coming off during sizing. Would be going too light on the amount cause it? I most likely used too little coating since it was quite blotchy, even for the first coat. Hope I can salvage these since I cooked a couple hundred like this once I tested 10 and passed the smash and acetone tests. Am using a convection oven. If I need to upload pictures I can tomorrow

Thanks

[kweidner]

When I first got started. I had curing puzzle too. Donnie indicated that a slight staining was OK and even slight flaking. Over the tens of thousands done, probably close to 100,000, I now get no staining or flaking. It took me awhile till I figured it out too. My second batch was a success but had a hard time repeating it. The cycle swings in my oven were to wide I think. The Brevilles swing less than 5 degrees when coming up to temp after loading. Donnie uses a pizza oven. Doubt if it swings at all. I'll be in Orlando in a couple weeks. If we can't figure it out maybe I can stop by if I clear it with the boss.

[Rich22]

I appreciate it, the oven may be the issue but I am going to mic some tomorrow and make sure size also isnt an issue. The swings are significant on the temp I preheated to 400 exactly then when I loaded (and I had that rack in in record time, it dropped to 350 and then I it went up over 400 for a brief period and I cooked total of 10 min. Passed the acetone and smash test with flying colors but sizing is taking off a good chunk. Two more coats to go though.
When I first got started. I had curing puzzle too. Donnie indicated that a slight staining was OK and even slight flaking. Over the tens of thousands done, probably close to 100,000, I now get no staining or flaking. It took me awhile till I figured it out too. My second batch was a success but had a hard time repeating it. The cycle swings in my oven were to wide I think. The Brevilles swing less than 5 degrees when coming up to temp after loading. Donnie uses a pizza oven. Doubt if it swings at all. I'll be in Orlando in a couple weeks. If we can't figure it out maybe I can stop by if I clear it with the boss.

[Liberty'sSon]

Rich22, I had a similar problem using the Lee push thru dies. I solved it by polishing the inside of the die with some 600 grit sandpaper inserted into a slit on the end of a dowel. It opened the die about 5 ten thousandths but that is actually what I wanted to happen. You could probably slick up the inside of the die without opening it up a measurable amount if you tried.

[Ausglock]

I polished my sizer dies with Mothers Auto polish on a piece of cloth inserted in a cut dowel rod.

I find it strange that you are removing baked coating. I have sized .360 down to .356 and needed massive pressure to do it. But the coating was perfect.

Try the Gremlin trick of placing clay pavers in the bottom of your oven to minimise the temp loss when the door is open.

[redrockant]

Trev and Joe, what catalyst do these guys use? Could it be the pills simply need sizing lube?

[Ausglock]

Yeah. Could be. But there are too many unanswered questions.

I may be spoilt by not having to pay for the coatings I am using (testing). So I am fairly liberal with how I use it and how much I mix.
Most of the coatings get tipped out on the weeds to kill them. You have seen the collection of coatings in my shed. Far too many.

[Gateway Bullets]

Trev and Joe, what catalyst do these guys use? Could it be the pills simply need sizing lube?

From my experience, with the coating being removed during the sizing process, it was the sizing die! My bullets passed all test and when I ran the bullets through a few of my Magma dies they would scratch the living h..l out of them.

I ended up buying a set of custom dies that were designed for the Hi-Tek coating and I've never looked back!

[Love Life]

Polish the interior of your die in an up and down motion using 1500 grit wet sandpaper. Finish with some Flitz in an up and down motion as a final polish.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I've had coating removed when sizing. The only time that happened was when I had a bullet that had a big fin because the mold wasn't closed properly or flashing on the bad causing the same thing.
The bullets in that case were junk anyway. I'm just not much for sorting.

[Gateway Bullets]

Here are my bullets with 5-1-7 red copper. 1ml per pound first coat prebake 105515

After third coat baked.
105516105516

Next are the bullets after smash test.
105517

[HI-TEK]

Here are my bullets with 5-1-7 red copper. 1ml per pound first coat prebake 105515

After third coat baked.
105516105516

Next are the bullets after smash test.
105517

cant view your photos. It says invalid attachments

[Gateway Bullets]

That's because you're upside down! Lol

Ok let me try this again.

First pic is red copper mixed 5-1-7 first coat prebake. 1ml per pound

105518

The second pic after third coat baked

105519

This is the smash test

105520

[HI-TEK]

That's because you're upside down!

ha ha ha ha ha....lol

[Gremlin460]

ha ha ha ha ha....lol

THEY probably putting the coating on upside down Joe.

[Ausglock]

THEY probably putting the coating on upside down Joe.
Nope. It's probably the teaspoons, tablespoons, Cool whip, coffee cans, butter tubs, hardware cloth, etc etc strange stuff they use.
Afterall. they still don't use the metric system and drive on the wrong side of the road.

[Gremlin460]

Nope. It's probably the teaspoons, tablespoons, Cool whip, coffee cans, butter tubs, hardware cloth, etc etc strange stuff they use.
Afterall. they still don't use the metric system and drive on the wrong side of the road.

AND they turn right through a red traffic light!!!..

[HI-TEK]

AND they turn right through a red traffic light!!!..

Not as bad as turning right from far left lane of a 3 lane road as in Melbourne where you have to cut across two lanes of traffic to turn right.
Most scary...

[Gateway Bullets]

Not as bad as turning right from far left lane of a 3 lane road as in Melbourne where you have to cut across two lanes of traffic to turn right.
Most scary...

Drive it like ya stole it!

[gunoil]

triking nowdays:
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/null_zps8c358816.png

[BMac]

Wrbjr how are things going, still having trouble?

[Wrbjr]

Wrbjr how are things going, still having trouble?

Nah, things back to normal and I'm makin boolits again... Glen Larson and his 45/45/10 saved the day. Hi Tek just wasn't meant to be I guess.

[HI-TEK]

That's because you're upside down! Lol

Ok let me try this again.

First pic is red copper mixed 5-1-7 first coat prebake. 1ml per pound

105518

The second pic after third coat baked

105519

This is the smash test

105520

Dont they look great.
You got the job just right.
Well done

[Ausglock]

Joe. Are you drunk or talking in Hungarian? Cause you are not making sense.

[Gateway Bullets]

Joe. Are you drunk or talking in Hungarian? Cause you are not making sense.

I think he switched to tequila and ate the worm!

[BMac]

Acetone is getting to him....

[HI-TEK]

Acetone is getting to him....

Ausglock and BMac
The trouble is, when not wearing reading glasses, all is a blur. (coated with Hi Tek) lol lol
I did not even check spelling before posting.
Most slack lol lol

[Ausglock]

Ausglock and BMac
The trouble is, when not wearing reading glasses, all is a blur. (coated with Hi Tek) lol lol
I did not even check spelling before posting.
Most slack lol lol

That happens to old, senile people.

[Rich22]

Rich22, I had a similar problem using the Lee push thru dies. I solved it by polishing the inside of the die with some 600 grit sandpaper inserted into a slit on the end of a dowel. It opened the die about 5 ten thousandths but that is actually what I wanted to happen. You could probably slick up the inside of the die without opening it up a measurable amount if you tried.

After measuring several bullets it looks like I have a situation I have to fix first. I am casting out of round big time. By about 5 or 6 thousandths. I had one range from .353 to .358 and one from .3565 to .363 and I will measure a few more later, obviously I am screwing up something big time but I have no idea what it is.

[Hardline]

If it's out of round from one side of the seam of the bullet to the other your alignment pins are either dirty or out of alignment. If it's .353 on the seam and .358 measuring 90 degrees from the seam, you probably have some debris on the face of the mold not allowing it to close all the way.

[Moonman]

Hardline,

Cast a little the other day with the 115 gr No Lube Groove 4 cavity, they were nice!

I have not used the 230 gr as of yet.

I DID NOT WASH THE MOLD WITH SOAPY WATER, I did just as AUSGLOCK said to do,

WIPE OFF WITH A PAPER TOWEL, SPRAY WITH "HI-TEK SUPER 500 MOLD RELEASE"

THEN START CASTING.

It worked for me.

Thanks to HARDLINE for a Great Mold and AUSGLOCK for Great advise on how to clean and cast with it.

MOONMAN

[Ausglock]

I have contacted Hardline regards lengthening their 130gn 9mm to 135.
I would love a 5 or 6 cavity with the smaller Dia. bullets.
The 45 RN is fine in 4 cavity.
The mold blocks could use going on a diet too as they are bloody heavy for hand casting.

[Rich22]

If it's out of round from one side of the seam of the bullet to the other your alignment pins are either dirty or out of alignment. If it's .353 on the seam and .358 measuring 90 degrees from the seam, you probably have some debris on the face of the mold not allowing it to close all the way.


It is larger along the groove , smaller 90 degrees from the seam larger with the seam

[BMac]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/24/9azu5y6u.jpg
Hardline in 147 .357, joy to work with, makes pretty projectiles.

[Gremlin460]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/24/9azu5y6u.jpg
Hardline in 147 .357, joy to work with, makes pretty projectiles.

They look brilliant, well done sir....

[Ausglock]

Well. it's been a busy week.
Bloody HI-TEK Joe has been slave driving me to get the DRY-TEK tested.
7 test samples later and they are all good to go.
The DRY-TEK coatings tested:
Red/copper, Brown/Copper (this one I'm calling Copperhead), Shiny Black, Fast red, Maroon, Zombie Green and Texas Tea (black/gold).
The Zombie green was tested with 3 extreme catalyst in the powder, rather than the standard catalyst.
The bullets sized easy, just like the liquid coating with 3 extreme catalyst.

I imagine this is going to be very popular in the USA.

My mix ratio is 20gms of DRY-TEK to 100mls or Acetone. this coats just like 5-1-7 of the liquid mix.

Shelf life of the mixed coating seems to be great. I have had 3 different colours mixed and sitting on my bench for over 2 weeks. I used these to coat today and all coated fine. All passed the smash and wipe test with flying colours. They are getting fired tomorrow.
So. if you want to try the DRY-TEK coatings, you better get onto Donnie at Bayou Bullets or Byron at Gateway Bullets.
I better get ready to test more.
I have so many different samples here, I can see some more weeds getting killed. time to tip more coatings out.

[zomby woof]

boolit with dark green two coats 200 grain .452 after hitting bowling pin.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/boolit2.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/boolit1.jpg

[Beagle333]

The Zombie green was tested with 3 extreme catalyst in the powder, rather than the standard catalyst.
The bullets sized easy, just like the liquid coating with 3 extreme catalyst.
I imagine this is going to be very popular in the USA.

We got a lot of zombies here in the states that need it! :mrgreen:

[Gateway Bullets]

Well. it's been a busy week.
Bloody HI-TEK Joe has been slave driving me to get the DRY-TEK tested.
7 test samples later and they are all good to go.
The DRY-TEK coatings tested:
Red/copper, Brown/Copper (this one I'm calling Copperhead), Shiny Black, Fast red, Maroon, Zombie Green and Texas Tea (black/gold).
The Zombie green was tested with 3 extreme catalyst in the powder, rather than the standard catalyst.
The bullets sized easy, just like the liquid coating with 3 extreme catalyst.

I imagine this is going to be very popular in the USA.

My mix ratio is 20gms of DRY-TEK to 100mls or Acetone. this coats just like 5-1-7 of the liquid mix.

Shelf life of the mixed coating seems to be great. I have had 3 different colours mixed and sitting on my bench for over 2 weeks. I used these to coat today and all coated fine. All passed the smash and wipe test with flying colours. They are getting fired tomorrow.
So. if you want to try the DRY-TEK coatings, you better get onto Donnie at Bayou Bullets or Byron at Gateway Bullets.
I better get ready to test more.
I have so many different samples here, I can see some more weeds getting killed. time to tip more coatings out.


Trevor you better not have "tested" to much of my powder! If my shipment comes up short I'll know where to start looking!!!! Lol

[Ausglock]

You will love the copperhead. It is very nice.
The Zombie Green still needs tweeking. It is OK, but not great. A bit more green and it will be fantastic.
All the samples I have tested either get melted down or given a coat of kryptonite Green or the Maroon as a third coat. these cover the not so good colours and make the bullets usable.

[Moonman]

Ausglock,
You have a photo of the COPPERHEAD?

[Ausglock]

Not yet. But I'll go take a few shortly.
Imagine red/copper only lighter and brighter.

[PAT303]

Well. it's been a busy week.
Bloody HI-TEK Joe has been slave driving me to get the DRY-TEK tested.
7 test samples later and they are all good to go.
The DRY-TEK coatings tested:
Red/copper, Brown/Copper (this one I'm calling Copperhead), Shiny Black, Fast red, Maroon, Zombie Green and Texas Tea (black/gold).
The Zombie green was tested with 3 extreme catalyst in the powder, rather than the standard catalyst.
The bullets sized easy, just like the liquid coating with 3 extreme catalyst.

I imagine this is going to be very popular in the USA.

My mix ratio is 20gms of DRY-TEK to 100mls or Acetone. this coats just like 5-1-7 of the liquid mix.

Shelf life of the mixed coating seems to be great. I have had 3 different colours mixed and sitting on my bench for over 2 weeks. I used these to coat today and all coated fine. All passed the smash and wipe test with flying colours. They are getting fired tomorrow.
So. if you want to try the DRY-TEK coatings, you better get onto Donnie at Bayou Bullets or Byron at Gateway Bullets.
I better get ready to test more.
I have so many different samples here, I can see some more weeds getting killed. time to tip more coatings out.

I'd be more than happy to try some out for you,I'm working on a 100mtr 357 load and always shoot 303's. Pat

[Ausglock]

Pat.
PM sent.

[Gateway Bullets]

It's getting close guys! Here is what it will look like and will be packed with 5 packs inside, and each pack will weigh 20 grams. All you will have to do is pour the contents of one pack into a container and add 100ml of your favorite solvent.

Give me another week or so to get all of the CORRECT labels from the printer (as it is nonflammable now and the catalyst is in the powder) and other misc items and we should be good to go!

Pricing will be around the same cost as the solvent base. The savings will be on shipping! No more hazmat!

Here are the colors that will be available.

Black
Zombie Green
Brown Copper
Red Copper
Texas Tea
Water Based PTFE

106332
106333

[Silver-Silver]

It's getting close guys! Here is what it will look like and will be packed with 5 packs inside, and each pack will weigh 20 grams. All you will have to do is pour the contents of one pack into a container and add 100ml of your favorite solvent.

Here are the colors that will be available.
Black
Zombie Green
Brown Copper
Red Copper
Texas Tea
Water Based PTFE

Gateway,
Why not sell in small containers and someone can open up a screw top lid, take out what they want and close the container back up? The larger container would be easier on you as far as packaging goes. Some guys will want to make small batches, others very large batches, this would make it easier on the end user also.

I thought PTFE was bad as a bullet coating because of the temperatures involved? That is why we all started using HiTek coating.

Which color is most like copper jacketed bullets... Red copper or Brown Copper?

Last question, will you offer multiple colors inside one pack? If you stick with the small package size and not a container, you could throw in packages of different colors, red copper, green, black all in the same package. This would be great for the guys that don't want to buy 4 or 5 liters of the coating, but would like to try 4 or 5 colors.

-Steve

[Love Life]

1 tbs powder to 6 TBS acetone is about perfect for coverage with 2 coats. No leading in 45 acp, 38 special, 357 mag, and 10mm. 5ML of mixture sqirted on 3 handfulls of boolits, swirl/tumble, dump and bake.

[Ausglock]

Gateway,


I thought PTFE was bad as a bullet coating because of the temperatures involved? That is why we all started using HiTek coating.
-Steve
The PTFE is the sizing lube.

[Gateway Bullets]

WildcatBrass,

Some people would complain if ya hung them with a new rope! Lol lol lol

The answer is simple. Most guys do not make up large batches at a time. The 5 pack will make 1/2 liter of coating. 20gr (one pack) to 100ml of acetone, thus less wasted product.

The variety pack is an option that I had have been thinking about. I may charge a few dollars more for the extra work.

I haven't tried the brown copper as of yet as the powder just arrived today. The red copper looks like this.......106391

[HI-TEK]

QUOTE "I thought PTFE was bad as a bullet coating because of the temperatures involved? That is why we all started using HiTek coating."

WildcatBrass
The PTFE water based system, is not for adding into coatings.
The Water based PTFE is suitable for dry film lubrication during sizing, especially with harder alloys.
It significantly reduces loads on machines and with manual presses.
It is also very suitable as dry film with virtually any two surfaces where you need lubrication, and the lubricant does not attract dust and provides silky smooth low friction movement.
It has been used very successfully as a case lube as well. We did not recommend this use, but we were advised that such use was successful.
In domestic applications, the product can be used for dry film lubrication of sliding metal doors, drawers, window frames, and virtually on any two mating sliding surfaces where sticking may be a problem.
In industrial use, the applications are endless.
Machinery lubrication, conveyor lubrication, thread on fastener lubrication, and on all synthetic and metallic surfaces as an anti-seize dry film lubricant.

[ChaplainJohn]

I haven't tried the brown copper as of yet as the powder just arrived today. The red copper looks like this.......
106381[/QUOTE]


Gateway your attachment came up as invalid. Oops!

[HI-TEK]

WildcatBrass,

Some people would complain if ya hung them with a new rope! Lol lol lol

The answer is simple. Most guys do not make up large batches at a time. The 5 pack will make 1/2 liter of coating. 20gr (one pack) to 100ml of acetone, thus less wasted product.

The variety pack is an option that I had have been thinking about. I may charge a few dollars more for the extra work.

I haven't tried the brown copper as of yet as the powder just arrived today. The red copper looks like this.......
106381

Why would any one use a new rope?????? I have never heard of this expression....lol..lol..lol

Aside from eliminating HAZMAT with freight or postage, the coating made up mixture (in the solvent), seems to have been stable for a couple of weeks at least.
Tests done here, that were made up on the 5th May, the mixture was able to be used on the 25th May to coat.
If user makes up 100mls, it should coat about 3500-3800 projectiles.
So far it seems user friendly system.

With your attached photo, it cannot be viewed.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=ChaplainJohn;2799317]I haven't tried the brown copper as of yet as the powder just arrived today.

The Brown Copper seems similar colour to the Copperhead snake....lol (according to Ausglock)

So when Ausglock tested it, then he re-named the Brown Copper to Copperhead, as he claimed that it reminded him of that colour.

I think that he did refer to that colour in his blogs, but not sure.

[Gateway Bullets]

It looks like this?
106397

[Gremlin460]

It looks like this?
106397


Must be hell to load 10 of those in a mag.....

[Beagle333]

Sadly I got a lot of those around my yard and pond here in AL. :shock:
I'll take the zombie green instead. :D

[Gateway Bullets]

Must be hell to load 10 of those in a mag.....

Lol lol lol I just see big brother trying to ban it!

[Ausglock]

Yes. That colour is very close.

[Avenger442]

Beagle333 Your here in "Sweet Home"! I'm about 140 miles NW of you. Have you used the coating yet? I have been delayed in my testing of the coating for my hunting rifles by wife's medical problems. Family first.

Was at Auburn 1971-1976. War Eagle!

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Not to hijack the thread but I would like to try some Lee 180 grn .401" TC boolits lubed with HiTek. I will pay for them or trade. I would be looking for about 100....preferably unsized but sized is ok too. Thanks!

[angus6]

So will I be able to get a way not using a g/c for 300blk ?

[Gateway Bullets]

So will I be able to get a way not using a g/c for 300blk ?

Yes, no gas checks!!!

I have customers that use the coating in 300 blackout without gas checks. They run both sonic and subsonic. They said they have been running a 240gr around 1500-1800 and no leading.

[angus6]

Thanks , another question , will be sizing with my Lube Master, am I gtg putting shot in the lubes in the die or should I have Chris make a solid sizing die

[Gateway Bullets]

Have Chis make you a die. He makes all of mine!

[Ausglock]

Chris who???

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Lathesmith is his handle. He makes Star lubrisizer dies.

[Gateway Bullets]

Lathesmith is his handle. He makes Star lubrisizer dies.

Shhhhhh don't tell him! We need to keep some of those Aussies in the dark! Lol

Here is his link.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?2206-lathesmith

[Gremlin460]

I use a old house oven right, yesterday while retrieving something the dropped of the table, I noticed the oven has a Grill under the oven part. So I checked it all out, and decided when I am not so busy I am going to tear out the grill elements and fit into the main oven. With a 240v relay slaved to the PID unit, I should be able to increase heat faster when required.

Dunno why I never noticed it before, probably too interested in getting the oven hot and casts coated to really pay attention.

[Leatherhead Bullets]

+1 on Lathesmith's dies. We run several in our old Lubemasters and Hi-tek. Chris does very good work!

[kentuckycajun]

I've perused this thread rather carefully, and the first mention of gas checks I see is Angus's post for the 300 blkout. I could have missed a few posts (old eyes).
I plan to try this for a 500 S&W gc boolit (I realize this will take some trial and error on cook times).
Will I need to use a gas check since it has a .460 shank, and if so, at what stage of the process do I crimp it on?

[Avenger442]

kentuckycajun
I'm just getting into loading up my first test in .308 and .44 Mag. My understanding is that you cannot put bullet through a sizer before putting on the first coat. It burnishes the lead causing an adherence problem with the coating. I use a Lee sizer to set my gas check on .308. So I apply one coat, install check, size then apply two more coats.

Read thread "HI-TEK do's and don'ts" Ausglock says size after two coats (no mention of GC) and shoot. He's the Guru.

[Ausglock]

Coat once. Fit gc and size. Coat second time. Load and shoot.

[220]

I've fitted them before coating without a problem but using a lyman with the GC seater so the boolit is only going into the die as far as the GC.
With push through size dies I do it after the 1st or 2nd coat.

[rogsir]

After some time i terminated the LFC in my setup and just use it as a bulge buster wannabe. I use the dillon setup on the press. And after 150 fired rounds the bore is clean. Thanks for the solution.

[bosco555]

Hi all...I eventually got to hi-tek some cast boolits. I followed Ausglock instructions to the "T" 5-1-7. I have baked them for 12min @ 200deg C. When done, I let them cool and did the 2nd coat/bake. When they cooled, I gas-checked them, but noticed that the coat seems to be a bit brittle...as if it was burnt toast like...Is this what they should look like?
I have checked the oven temp with a laser thermometer, and it was at 200deg.C...
Thanks
bosco

[Moonman]

Time may have been TOO LONG for the total projectile mass that was baked.
You need to study YOUR PROCESS AND EQUIPMENT, and take notes.
Did you do the ACETONE wipe test EACH COAT?
Did you do the SMASH TEST each coat?
Maybe you should have tested a projectile at 10 mins, 11 mins and your final 12 mins.
How long did the INITIAL COAT DRY before coating?
First coat FAILING the tests CANNOT BE SALVAGED, remelt and start over.
DO NOT "SIZE" before coating, DO NOT try to REMOVE LUBE from
COMMERCIAL CAST PROJECTILES to then coat them with HI-TEK. (it will not work)
Over baking the projectiles will cause color to darken but the coating will work,
If your coating IS BRITTLE, I think you have problems with your process.

[Moonman]

bosco555,

How much coating was applied TO WHAT PROJECTILE MASS WEIGHT initially?
How much HI-TEK coating was used totally for what mass?

[Ausglock]

More info needed.
What oven?

etc etc.
I'd suggest too much coating used for first coat.

Photos and info Please.

[Gateway Bullets]

Well here is a pic that one of my customers sent me. He was using 45- 200gr swc coated in red copper. Thanks Bob!

107324

[popper]

240gr around 1500-1800 From a BO? Difficult to believe. I do suppose if the boolit is barely in the case mouth you might get enough powder in there. I've not seen that loading data.

[Ausglock]

Bosco.
Those laser thermometers are not accurate. Even the expensive ones.
'Get a Digital therm with K sensor leads to place in the oven.
What oven are you using? Is it a fan forced oven?

Come on... Wake up. It is 8am on the east coast. you westies always want a sleep in.

[bosco555]

107371Hahaha...Trev...I'm here...I was just admiring my failure....
I am using a sunbeam convection oven, I had ordered the breville, but hey...just my luck they delivered a sunbeam..nevertheless...
Just to add insult to injury (and this is my fault) I ordered the black hi-tek.
I mixed 5ml of black to 7ml of acetone to 1ml of hardener for approx 150 boolits (That's all I had at the time)
Boolits were cast by me (Lee furnace) and water dropped. I subsequently washed the boolits in acetone to remove any grease from molds/handling and followed your procedure.
I let them cool down properly before applying the other coats
However, I missed doing the wipe test...
Did the smash test and as you can see from the pic...Epic fail
The boolits are 303/314 british and the big one is a 458WinMag (wipe test after 3 coats)

[HI-TEK]

107371Hahaha...Trev...I'm here...I was just admiring my failure....
I am using a sunbeam convection oven, I had ordered the breville, but hey...just my luck they delivered a sunbeam..nevertheless...
Just to add insult to injury (and this is my fault) I ordered the black hi-tek.
I mixed 5ml of black to 7ml of acetone to 1ml of hardener for approx 150 boolits (That's all I had at the time)
Boolits were cast by me (Lee furnace) and water dropped. I subsequently washed the boolits in acetone to remove any grease from molds/handling and followed your procedure.
I let them cool down properly before applying the other coats
However, I missed doing the wipe test...
Did the smash test and as you can see from the pic...Epic fail
The boolits are 303/314 british and the big one is a 458WinMag (wipe test after 3 coats)

Hi,
I am just going to throw my hat into this arena, and try and help.

I am concerned about a number of areas that may have been indicated by your message.
1. Are you using some sort of bullet Mold grease type release agent? You advised, that you had "washed alloy with Acetone to remove grease". Is that correct?
Failure of adhesion may be directly caused by residues from grease, or other release agents which are not removed by Acetone wash. Unfortunately, if this is the case, it is a re-melt job.
2. What metal/s are you using? The alloy seems to have a white powdery deposit and is not the same colour as regular alloys I have seen.
I have seen alloys that have high levels of Zinc and Cadmium and possibly other metals, that will form white crusty powders on alloy surface especially after contact with water.
These deposits are also a contributor to poor adhesion and may have negatively affected coating.
3. 5:1:7 ratio is OK.
You really need to cast a few hundred first, and make up adequate coating so that you can take larger more manageable ratios that provide less chance of volume errors.
Mixing small amounts such as you had, can contribute to possibility of large variations in ratios, as it is difficult to measure small amounts accurately.

I sent you a PM to which I have received no response as yet.
Happy to assist as possible.

[Ausglock]

Bosco.
Don't be such a tight **** with the mixing.
I mix 50mls of colour, 10mls of catalyst and 70mls of Acetone.
Doing 5,1,7 mls is a pain in the ringhole and you will get poor results.

Don't wash your pills. If you are using a release agent on your molds, stop!!!
I smoke my Lee molds and also use the HI-TEK Super 500 release spray with no ill effects on my coating.
Also. The first coat should not be able to be seen. the coated bullets should look almost uncoated. that is how much coating you use.

The mixed coating will last for a few months. don't be scared of it going off.

[bosco555]

Yep, will do that, wasn't sure how much it would take (being the first time), but I might put the mix in a squirty plastic bottle type of thing...I also had very cloudy boolits. I have since re-melted, fluxed and re-cast all of them...
I don't use any mold release agent, I smoke the molds with either matches or a candle..
I will take pics as I go along (will do tomorrow afternoon). And yeah, the first coat looked fine before the oven, but when they came out is was much heavier..will use less coating.
Is the black still ok though for >2000fps??

[Ausglock]

I have used Black to 1700fps on a 105gn SWC in 357 Sig.

[Gateway Bullets]

When I first started playing with the product, I would mix VERY small amounts and had terrible results! I didn't want to waste coating and it was a big mistake.

Here is what I learned.

Mix larger batches of coating (minor variance make a huge mess)
Don't try to wash of contaminants (Alox, wax, etc etc) from older bullets (scrap and recast them)
If a bullets has been cast and sized the coating will not bond to the bullet.
Contamination in your tumbling device will cause coating adhesion failure.
Bad acetone will cause a MAJOR headache!!!!!
Make sure you do the wipe and smash test after each coat. If it fails STOP and start over!
Make sure the temp in the oven is accurate.
Use very light first coats. If you think you put on enough, you put on to much!
Keep notes of what you are doing.
When all else fails, blame Joe for drinking to much bourbon while making the coating! Lol

But the biggest thing...... If you run into a problem ask for help!

My shop phone is 636-629-5555. Feel free to call and I will help any way that I can. If I don't answer, leave a msg and I will call ya back as soon as I can.

Also, from the look of the pic, the bullet looks very rough! This can be caused from either using to much coating or tumbling to long. You only need to tumble for 10-15 seconds. Don't tumble until you hear a change.

This is how light of a coat I use on my gold and red copper.

107474 107476

[bosco555]

Hi All and thanks again for your replies. I have tumbled until I heard the change and saw that the boolits were getting sticky. I shall change that. I also think the coat was too thick.

1700fps is not going to cut it as I need at least 2000-2100fps for my 458WinMag, will do another batch and see how I go, in order to get used to the procedure and then will order a batch of gold/copper red so that I can push my loads to those speeds..
Will keep you guys posted.
b

[leadman]

bosco555, you may want to get away from using a candle to smoke your molds. It leaves a greasy type deposit that is probably not good for the coating adhesion to the boolit. I have had no problem with match smoked molds.

I tested some of the gold powder Hi-Tek coated boolits a while back and I really like it. Seems to coat the boolit more completely in a thinner coat. No difference was noted in the couple of guns I tried it in versus the liquid.

[Pyrex]

I'm sure I'm not the first one to come barging in demanding a summary, but I have read the first 90 pages of the thread, and the last 10, and I'm a little confused and need some help about putting it all together. Has anyone outlined the entire process in a single post I can see, or website?

I'm purchasing the gold lube from gateway. It seems there is suppose to be a catalyst, is that included?

Also, it seems there are multiple supplies needed, mainly squirt bottles for the lube, some acetone which I assume is to cut it/act as binder? And then a third bottle to mix/squirt. So let me kind of outline what I presume is the method to use, and please correct me where I'm wrong.


Mix lube w/ catalyst and acetone (is this correct?)
Use roughly 1ml per pound of bullets - so for 250 230gr .45 bullets you would use 8.2ml (is this true for all coats you do, or is the first "light code" suppose to be less?
Ratio of 5-1-7, I don't quite understand this. What are the three elements to this ratio?
Bake for 15min @ 200c (392 F) per coat (I understand this is a derivative of the amount being done)
Acetone/smash test
Recoat
Bake for 15min @ 200c (392 F)
Acetone/smash test
resize.
load


Now, for tumble lube, is it okay to just toss them in a plastic bag like you would normal lube? Also, I have a twist dial style toaster oven I was going to use, however I'm not exactly sure if I can trust it's accuracy so I was planning on using a digital thermometer to supplement it and get the right temps. Anything special I should know beforehand?

[Beagle333]

Has anyone outlined the entire process in a single post I can see, or website?


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?240450-HI-TEK-do-s-and-don-ts

[Moonman]

Pyrex,
CONVECTION OVEN is best.
Accurate Temps are a MUST.
You tumble in a plastic bag you'll have a mess,
the Acetone will probably dissolve it.

RATIOS, the 5 is the amount of Color
the 1 is the amount of Catalyst (included in the kit) added to the Color,
the 7 is the amount of ACETONE (that you supply and add to the mix).
Mixing up MORE rather than LESS seems to work best,
Mixed solution will a bit of time.
You need to keep NOTES ON YOUR EQUIPMENT AND PROCESS.

if you're the impatient type, you'll probably be better off trying
the POWDER COATING methods either electrostatic or the tumble method.
Some folks have multiple tries over time, ALL FAIL and they just GIVE UP.

Fresh Cast, DO NOT SIZE it burnishes the surface and the coatings adhesion suffers,
DO NOT ACETONE BATH or try to clean of previous lube just remelt those they won't work,

Coating NEEDS TO REALLY DRY, more than to the TOUCH, underneath the coating
takes some time to dry.

Coat/DRY WELL/Bake/Acetone Wipe Test/Smash Test if all is A-OK keep going,
Coat again/Dry/Bake/ Acetone Wipe Test/Smash Test/if A-OK
NOW, You can size, if not REMELT START OVER/KEEP NOTES!

[Ausglock]

Pyrex.
Follow Beagle333's link.
I have the process listed in point form.
If you are unsure of something, call Gateway.
Byron can help you.

P.S. 15 minute bake will cause failure. you only need 10 to 12 minutes at 200deg C.

[Pyrex]

sounds good! lol @ the plastic bag, I didn't even think about that. I assume quenching in water isn't going to affect the adhesion, will it?

Big thanks for the link, puts me at ease.

[220]

Pyrex.
P.S. 15 minute bake will cause failure. you only need 10 to 12 minutes at 200deg C.

Yep 15min would be way to long in my experience.
Coated a few more batches over the weekend, forgot to reset my oven from 12 to 10min when I swapped from red/copper to the original blue green. Bullets came out looking over cooked, still passed the smash and wipe tests but you could tell by just looking they had been in to long.
Bit like a cake that has been baked to long, still usable but you know you can do better next time.

The whole baking boolits process is a bit like following a cake recipe, there is an oven temp and time listed but it is really only a guide and will require minor tweeking in temp and time to get the perfect results in your oven.
Follow the recipe 10-12min @ 200c check the results and then make minor adjustments, 5c or 1 min either way until you get the perfect result.

[Gateway Bullets]

Pyrex.
Follow Beagle333's link.
I have the process listed in point form.
If you are unsure of something, call Gateway.
Byron can help you.

P.S. 15 minute bake will cause failure. you only need 10 to 12 minutes at 200deg C.

I am more than willing to help out. Call the shop any time you need help. 636-629-5555. If I don't answer leave a msg. It gets pretty loud in there!!!!!

[ItZaLLgooD]

I have read about 80 of the earliest pages of this so please forgive me if this has already been covered. I am using the green color and mixing 5-1-7. My first coat passes the acetone and smash test but not the fingernail test. I was able to scrap it off fairly easily. I carried on and after 3 thin coats they made it through the Lee sizer without issue. I did however get some lead in the barrel after about 50 rounds. Like some of the others the leading was substantially reduced from the normal amount in this particular barrel (Taurus PT1911) and was very easy to get out.

I did make a fairly small batch of the mix. I used a 1/2 teaspoon for measuring and did the 5-1-7 with that. For approx. 200 230 gr. 45's I used 3 of the 1/2 tsp's of mix. I have a Hamilton Beech convection oven from WallyWorld and a thermometer on the tray with the boolits. I ran them just under 400°F for 12-15 mins. The color seems to match with what some have posted as good. I did make a batch that was a little darker that went up to 420°F for 10 mins. They actually passed all of the tests but were way darker in color. These were .40's and I haven't tried them yet.

Any suggestions to improve my process?? I haven't heard anyone mention the fingernail test here but it was in the destructions that I got with my coating. I am going to try again later today and see if a larger batch of coating helps.

[Ausglock]

Ok. first thing first..
What is your alloy?
I use 2,6,92 alloy at 16 BHN and there is no way in hell I can fingernail scratch the coating off it.
Are you sure you are not removing lead with the coating when you scratch it?

If it passes the smash and wipe test, then I'd say you alloy is the problem.
do a hardness test to check.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I don't have a hardness tester at the moment. It's on my list. The alloy is Isotope lead (don't remember the actual content) and range scrap, 50/50. I am definitely taking lead when I scratch.

I will cast up a batch of straight Iso lead and see if it helps. Maybe I should add a little tin??

I use straight Iso lead and 45-45-10 for mid range 357's and +P 38's without any leading in my Model 66. The barrel in my Taurus has always been a real bugger when it comes to leading. The 40's (cast from straight Iso lead) will get run through my Sig 226. We'll see how that goes.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I also forgot to mention that after the 3rd coat I pass the scratch test, just not the first. I didn't know if this was normal or not

[ItZaLLgooD]

Here's what the batch I did today looks like.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zps59e657eb.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zps59e657eb.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

Here's what the batch I did today looks like.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zps59e657eb.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zps59e657eb.jpg.html)




These look OK.
I would be interested in some photos of your smash test, after 1st coat.

If your first coat comes off easily, do not continue coating with extra coats. It is a waste of time and materials.

My initial reaction to what you have described so far is, that first coat may have not been dried adequately, and baking them, may "set" the coat, but no bonding to the Lead.
That is why you may be able to scratch off coating with your finger nails.

I would appreciate if you coat once, dry it well, and then bake at 200C for 10 minutes.
Let it cool, and do the solvent test, and smash test,and if you can take photos of each, and describe what is happening in details after this firs coat and testing, it may shed more details so we can assist.

[ItZaLLgooD]

So do I start the timer once the oven reaches temp? I have been timing from when I put them in. The oven will be at 390-400, when I put the boolits in drops to 350 +- then it takes 10-12 minutes for it to get back to 390. Should I leave them in for 10 minutes after they reach 390?

I just got done with some 124 gr. 9mm's. They came out perfectly and passed all tests without any trouble. They looked so nice I skipped the 3rd coat. These will be loaded in some 357 sig's.

Everything that I have cast is coated. Mainly 45's. I just got a new mold for the 40. I will cast some of those next week and document the coating process, coat by coat. I will also try to try and let them dry longer. I have been waiting 15-20 minutes with a fan blowing on them. Maybe I will try to run it out to an hour or so.

[HI-TEK]

So do I start the timer once the oven reaches temp? I have been timing from when I put them in. The oven will be at 390-400, when I put the boolits in drops to 350 +- then it takes 10-12 minutes for it to get back to 390. Should I leave them in for 10 minutes after they reach 390?

I just got done with some 124 gr. 9mm's. They came out perfectly and passed all tests without any trouble. They looked so nice I skipped the 3rd coat. These will be loaded in some 357 sig's.

Everything that I have cast is coated. Mainly 45's. I just got a new mold for the 40. I will cast some of those next week and document the coating process, coat by coat. I will also try to try and let them dry longer. I have been waiting 15-20 minutes with a fan blowing on them. Maybe I will try to run it out to an hour or so.


The coating after thoroughly dry, needs to get to a minimum 180C, them held there for at least 3 minutes at 180C.
200C is not a problem.
It is not only the oven temperature that needs to be checked, but the projectiles loaded needs to get the heat up to correct conditions for cure and bonding.
Using 200C has been adopted, as a general guide, and all you have to do is set your oven, to get to 200C, then time after loading, check at what point the coating is cured.
All you have to do is take out quickly, say 2-3 projectiles at 10 minutes, again at 12 minutes, and so on, until you get right results.
Then simply reproduce that time in oven with same load, and dont keep changing temperature dial.
Only keep records time inside oven until it works with your baking system.

[Ausglock]

Don't try and bake too many at once. 40 and 45 pills, I only bake 175 to 200 at a time.
for 9mm 38 etc, I bake 250 to 300 at a time.

Follow the steps:
1. add 2 bullets to your colour resin and shake for a good 5 minutes.
2. shake the catalyst.
3. empty bottle ready. Add 5 parts colour immediately...IMMEDIATELY... after shaking.
4. Add 7 parts Acetone and then the 1 part catalyst.
5. Put lid on the mixture and shake the schit out of it for 5 minutes. I use 250ml juice bottles with pop-tops on them. easy to add coating to the bullets.
6. Add about 200 bullets( about 2Kgs) to the plastic bucket. lid is NOT needed.
7. Shake the 5-1-7-mix and Immediately add a 1 second dribble to the bucket of bullets. Replace mixture lid Immediately.
8. Shake the bucket of bullets and coating. Remember... you have to have the bullets and coating mixing around just like a cement mixer does. The bottom of the bucket should be wet with coating.
9. Keep shaking, swirling until the rattle of the bullets changes to a dull thumping. you will hear the change really easy.
10. dump the coated bullets onto your drying tray and shake the tray side to side until the bullets have leveled out on the tray. don't worry about them touching. it doesn't matter.
11. If you think there isn't enough colour on the bullet, then you have the coating just right. Leave them alone for at least 10 minutes. then warm them with a hair dryer.
12. turn on your oven and pre-heat to 200deg C.
13. place you bullets on the baking tray and spread them around to be even on the tray and place tray in the oven.
14. set the oven timer for 12 minutes. not 6 or 8. But a full 12 minutes.
15. when the oven turns off, remove the tray of bullets and let them cool. do not touch them until cool.
16. when cool. take 1 bullet. lay it in it's side on a steel base and smash it with a hammer. the coating should not flake off.
17. Take another bullet and get some acetone on a white cloth and wipe the coated bullet for 30 seconds and see if the colour comes off. if it does. place back into oven and bake for another 5 minutes. ( I have found 12 minutes per bake is enough).
18. When the bullets are cool, place back in the bucket and repeat steps 6 to 17.
19. when 2nd coat has cooled and has tested OK, Size and shoot.

[ItZaLLgooD]

The coating after thoroughly dry, needs to get to a minimum 180C, them held there for at least 3 minutes at 180C.
200C is not a problem.
It is not only the oven temperature that needs to be checked, but the projectiles loaded needs to get the heat up to correct conditions for cure and bonding.
Using 200C has been adopted, as a general guide, and all you have to do is set your oven, to get to 200C, then time after loading, check at what point the coating is cured.
All you have to do is take out quickly, say 2-3 projectiles at 10 minutes, again at 12 minutes, and so on, until you get right results.
Then simply reproduce that time in oven with same load, and dont keep changing temperature dial.
Only keep records time inside oven until it works with your baking system.

Got it. Maybe that's why the 9mm's worked out a little better. They got to temperature sooner.

With my set up, I couldn't get the color to change at 375-385°, even at 15-18 minutes, I bumped up the temp to 390-400 and was able to see a difference at 12-14 minutes. I think that my thermometer reads a little high. The oven is set to 350 to reach 390 on the thermometer.

I think that I am pretty close to getting it right. A little more fine tuning and I'll be off to the races. Thanks for all of the help guys.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Ausglock, I did exactly what you wrote minus the hairdryer and I put the catalyst in before the acetone. I might be a little closer to 220 45's. The tray isn't really packed. I tried to leave some room for air to move around. Next time I will drop it down to 150-175. The fact that the 9mm's came out perfect tells me that there may just be to many 45's to heat properly.

[Gremlin460]

The oven will be at 390-400, when I put the boolits in drops to 350 +- then it takes 10-12 minutes for it to get back to 390. so nice I skipped the 3rd coat.

All the good ovens seem to recover quite quickly , some not so much... Mine is a old house wall oven and does not recover that fast. As a work around I put 4 thick clay bricks on the bottom shelf. These act like heat soaks, they soak the temperature untill they themselves are a 200 degrees, I turn the oven on 30 mins before I want to set coating. When I open the door and close it after sliding in cold casts, the return to temp is 1/10th the time it used to take, as the bricks now release heat into the cooler oven.

I also removed the knob from the temp controler, so I dont get the urge to "tweak it".
Get a temp sensor in the middle of the oven and a digital readout, its the only way to really know whats going on. The digital temp meter will also indicate how fast the temperature recovers far better than a themometer.

Since using the bricks my oven take less than 4 mins to return to 203 from a door open/insert new tray/door close event that drops the temp to around 143 degrees.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I do have a multi-meter that I was using in my casting pot. The thermocouple is bad but I can get a new one. Never thought of it though. Thanks for the suggestion.

As far a the bricks go, another good suggestion. I would probably only have room for one or 2, but it would help the recovery of temperature.

[Avenger442]

Want to repeat something I said about the bricks in an earlier post, in case you missed it. If they have been outside you might want to cook them a while to get the moisture out. Mine steamed for about an hour the first time.

Gremlin 460 is right, it helps maintain temperature when loading and while cooking. I'm using a cheap yard sale convection oven with a brick in it. My .308 and .44 are passing tests all three coats. Putting about 3lb. of lead in the oven for right at 390 F (200 C) varies only 10 degrees either side with brick. 3lb was an earlier suggestion from one of the post.

This stuff is great. Loaded about 60 .308 for some accuracy test. Will be pushing them between 1700 and 2000 fps. From previous information, I'm expecting the lower end to be the most accurate. Will report back with photos, I hope, when done.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Want to repeat something I said about the bricks in an earlier post, in case you missed it. If they have been outside you might want to cook them a while to get the moisture out. Mine steamed for about an hour the first time.

Gremlin 460 is right, it helps maintain temperature when loading and while cooking. I'm using a cheap yard sale convection oven with a brick in it. My .308 and .44 are passing tests all three coats. Putting about 3lb. of lead in the oven for right at 390 F (200 C) varies only 10 degrees either side with brick. 3lb was an earlier suggestion from one of the post.

This stuff is great. Loaded about 60 .308 for some accuracy test. Will be pushing them between 1700 and 2000 fps. From previous information, I'm expecting the lower end to be the most accurate. Will report back with photos, I hope, when done.


Did you just use a regular brick or a fire brick?

[leadman]

I put crushed rock around 1 1/2" in diameter in my ovens and it works fine. Stole it from the front yard.

itza, straight isotope lead may be too soft for your use. Mine runs around 8 to 9 BHN. This is ok for the 45 but in my experience not for the 9mm or 40 S&W.
You can water quench the last coating and it should harden it up some. If that does not help buy some linotype off the Selling & Swapping board here and mix about a pound per 10 pounds of isotope and it should help, especially if you water quench. COWW and shot will also harden your lead and help with water quenching.

[ItZaLLgooD]

For some reason I thought the iso lead was harder than that. Live and learn. I will try the WC first. If need be I can get some lino to toughen it up.

[Avenger442]

Did you just use a regular brick or a fire brick?
Just a regular solid brick. Actually any brick, paver, or fire brick will do. You are just trying to put something in the oven to absorb (heat sink) the heat and store it. One of the earlier post said the best material would be a block of copper if you have one of those lying around.

[Ausglock]

Well. I did some bake time testing last night.
I had 200 9mm 120con bullets with one coat of the DRY-TEK powdered Red/copper mixed 20gms to 100mls of Acetone.
They were placed in a pre-warmed oven at 200deg C. 2 Bullets were removed starting at 10 minutes and then every minute up to 20 minutes.
This was to see at what point the coating would fail the smash test.

So after all the bullets were cooled, they were smashed. 1 of each was smashed on their side. The other was smashed top to bottom.
I expected them to start failing at the 13 minute mark. But... NONE FAILED!!!!!
Even the 20 minute bullets passed the smash test with flying colours!

I have now applied the second coat and will re-bake these for a further 20 minutes and use the same methodology for bullet sampling.

After taking to HI-TEK Joe, it would seem that failing to allow the coated bullets to properly dry prior to baking is the main cause of smash failure.

Watch this space.....

[Gremlin460]

Now that is very interesting..!!

Also had some Bronze mixed in the shed, from 2 months ago, went and looked and noticed mixture had turned black!!.
Not that it mattered, just a note that after a couple of months I had one look like its gone off.

I haven't cast or coated for month or more now, been busy on other projects.

[Love Life]

Ausglock- Not only does it have a larger bake time range, it also has a wider bake temperature range.Try the acetone swipe test on all of your boolits baked at different times and let us know what happens...

[Ausglock]

Did that. All passed the wipe test too.
The coating used for this test was mixed 0n May 10th and has been sitting on my bench.
So it has been mixed for 5 weeks and still working fine.

This DRY-TEK seems to be the duck's guts...

[kweidner]

I let mine pre-warm on the top of the oven instead of hair dryer. That works too. I work with 10 racks at a time and 2 ovens. This is about 2500 9mm. Takes 5 shifts of 12 minutes. By the time load 3 or 4 is in, load one is cool and ready to coat again. 5 comes out and one is ready to bake round two.

[HI-TEK]

Ausglock- Not only does it have a larger bake time range, it also has a wider bake temperature range.Try the acetone swipe test on all of your boolits baked at different times and let us know what happens...

Love Life,
Thanks for your support and data.
The coatings have a minimum requirement with temperatures.
Cross linking aspects start to take place at approach to 180C, which seems the triggering point to cross link and harden and bond to metal.
Generally as a rule of thumb, at 180C, it should be adequately cross linked to pass the smash and solvent tests.

To clarify things a little,
1. Solvent test was started, to determine adequate cure at a specific time, so next coat did not remove previous coat by acting as a paint stripper.
Not enough cure or temperature, had caused next coat to be stripped of with addition of next coating mixture. If this "stripping" happens, then it is a re-melt, as the finish is very poor, and rough and cant be fixed.

2. Smash test was started to determine adhesion to alloy during severe deformation as occurring with sizing and shooting.
If coatings survive smash tests, and solvent tests, it can be re-coated without worry, and subsequent applications of coatings should work out OK.

3. Temperature & time of cure matters.
a. First, as per requirements, both projectile and coating must reach at least 180C.

Cure at 180C takes about 15 or more minutes, (depending on air circulation inside oven).
The temperatures and resident times in ovens, was adopted for commercial production uses.

Speed of cooking required for mass production, requires higher temperatures to reduce resident time in oven, so, a cyclone air circulation at a higher temperature above 180C, is ideal, and significantly shortens required resident time in oven with temperature rise.
Achieving the solvent test and smash test to satisfy "mass high volume users" is what was kept in the forefront.

b. As published on data sheets, the coating has residual ability to "automatically react" with additional heat with extra time in the oven, or with friction heat, or heat from powder, to further cross link and further harden the polymer.

Heating for additional times as carried out by Ausglock, simply provides support to the coating being able to withstand heat and stay bonded to alloy, although being made darker in colour.

(With this test result, I am now wondering, if by our concentrating on "cooking cycles for pistol use temperatures and times", (high volume market), we had in fact overlooked possibility of the coatings being softer than that required for rifle uses.)

c. Ausglock, advised, that at 20 minute bake, the coated projectiles were so slippery, that it was difficult to pick them up.

Hope I have clarified some aspects, and must admit, I also had learned a few things as well.

[Love Life]

I baked up to 24 minutes and up to 425F with the fire engine red powdered HI-TEK. It adhered well, passed all the hammer tests, and shot very well. However; there was always some color on the rag after a swipe test with acetone. This coating is much more...elastic-ish and not like a hard candy coating like the 3 part liquid system.

[Avenger442]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;2825553]

(With this test result, I am now wondering, if by our concentrating on "cooking cycles for pistol use temperatures and times", (high volume market), we had in fact overlooked possibility of the coatings being softer than that required for rifle uses.)

HI-TEK
Are you saying that by cooking the coating at slightly higher temp. and for a longer time the coating will become harder and able to withstand the higher pressures that are typical of rifle vs. pistol?

We know that harder lead alloy withstands higher pressures. But hard lead alloy is more expensive ie. wheel weights cheaper vs. Linotype harder but more expensive. Can we replace some of the strength needed in the lead with the strength (hardness if you will) of the coating?

I understand, the coating is not meant to be a jacket but a lubricant.

[HI-TEK]

I baked up to 24 minutes and up to 425F with the fire engine red powdered HI-TEK. It adhered well, passed all the hammer tests, and shot very well. However; there was always some color on the rag after a swipe test with acetone. This coating is much more...elastic-ish and not like a hard candy coating like the 3 part liquid system.

Thanks for your input.
With the Red coloured material you tested, did you do the solvent wipe test straight after last coat?
Interestingly, a local also advised, that after doing final coating and cooling, the Red was evident on solvent test.
The next day, coating passed all tests. (It seem to have "self healed".)
I suspect, that the red coating additives, may have an affect on film characteristics, and these affects which seem to be reduced with storage.
The Powdered version should perform same as liquid versions.
I dont know if you had compared the liquid red to the powdered red side by side.
It would be useful to have those sort of comparisons.
My rationale, that both solvent and powder versions may not fully encapsulate all the red components and that is why there may be a red stain on solvent wipes.

After shooting the projectiles, was there any residue inside barrel?

[Love Life]

Solvent wipe was done as soon as they had cooled after their second coat. The color still showed on the rag 2 days later. That was with the powder.

With the 3 part liquid red/copper, the bullets passed the solvent wipe test immediately after cooling.

In my tests, their was no comparable difference in accuracy between the two coating systems. Performance in the barrels identical. Absolutely no leading and no coating coming off in the barrels.

The only oddity showed with the 10mm at full horse power and only with one bullet profile (SWC). The throat shaving the driving bands was the cause there and not the coating as the issue went away when I switched to RN and WFN profiles.

I find the powder coating coats much better and more uniform. I prefer it over the 3 part system. The best way to incorporate the powder into the acetone is to sort of tumble it I while stirring with a glass stirring rod or in a bug juice bottle with some boolits in it as agitators and then shake the stank out of it.

Additionally, the powder coating has much different separation and dilution qualities. It stays mixed together MUCH better than the 3 part liquid system.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;2825553]

(With this test result, I am now wondering, if by our concentrating on "cooking cycles for pistol use temperatures and times", (high volume market), we had in fact overlooked possibility of the coatings being softer than that required for rifle uses.)

HI-TEK
Are you saying that by cooking the coating at slightly higher temp. and for a longer time the coating will become harder and able to withstand the higher pressures that are typical of rifle vs. pistol?

We know that harder lead alloy withstands higher pressures. But hard lead alloy is more expensive ie. wheel weights cheaper vs. Linotype harder but more expensive. Can we replace some of the strength needed in the lead with the strength (hardness if you will) of the coating?

I understand, the coating is not meant to be a jacket but a lubricant.

Avenger 442,
The tests results certainly point that way.

We already are aware, that the "set" polymer as used now, is adequately cross linked at temperature and time to meet requirements.
We also know that at that point, the polymer is not totally or fully cured, and additional time or higher temperatures, in fact should push the cross link density further to completion.

The question is, what are the effects on such baked film, and rationale is, that the film should be harder, but by how much, it is not known, as no one over the years ever wanted to determine those parameters.

In terms of coating withstanding higher pressures, again, I really cannot advise what pressures are being imposed onto coatings, and what additional pressures arise from various shooting types.

The interest by shooters was that the film separated alloy from barrel without leaving residues. There is some lubrication, but that is not the pre-requisite.
Coating should stay put, bonded to alloy and not transfer onto barrel, whilst shooting process is taking place, and conform to hydraulic deformations and keep separated the alloy and barrel.

Your question about replacing jacketed type ammo with a harder coating matrix is a good one, but due to lack of adequate such comparative testing in those areas, it may be a simple test to compare standard cure with longer cured projectiles in the same gun with same loads.
That way, hopefully we can get more positive confirmations to your question.

Apology for my long answer, but I really can only provide my interpretations on what should happen.
May be longer cured coatings will work as you are proposing, and may be they wont.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Love Life;2826337]Solvent wipe was done as soon as they had cooled after their second coat. The color still showed on the rag 2 days later. That was with the powder.

With the 3 part liquid red/copper, the bullets passed the solvent wipe test immediately after cooling.

Love Life,
I am a little confused with your above post.
Did you try Red Copper powder against Red Copper liquid?

If this is what you did, then there may have been something wrong with powdered applied system for the colour coming off the coatings as Red Copper colour will not or should I say should not be evident, with solvent wipe test.

If you are comparing Red powder with Red Copper coatings, ( one is metallic and one is not), they contain totally different ingredients and will provide some differences with final coat properties..

[Love Life]

I was comparing the red powder against the red copper 3 part liquid system. Two different coatings. One with metallic and one without.

I don't sweat the color on the rag because they shoot fine. I also coat thick. I use 5ML of the powder/acetone to coat about 2 to 2 1/2 lbs of boolits.

The 10mm targets are 18 rds per target fired at 25 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy

The 45 ACP targets are 14 rds per target fired at 20 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy.

The stuff is legit, and I hope the US dealers sell large jars as I have no interest in ready mix packets.

Here are the different ratios of acetone to powder:

[HI-TEK]

I was comparing the red powder against the red copper. Two different coatings. One with metallic and one without.

I don't sweat the color on the rag because they shoot fine. I also coat thick. I use 5ML of the powder/acetone to coat about 2 to 2 1/2 lbs of boolits.

The 10mm targets are 18 rds per target fired at 25 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy

The 45 ACP targets are 14 rds per target fired at 20 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy.

The stuff is legit, and I hope the US dealers sell large jars as I have no interest in ready mix packets.

Here are the different ratios of acetone to powder:

Love Life,

Thanks much for your clarifying things on the different coatings you posted and your vote of confidence.

I have had some discussions with US dealer about pack sizes for powdered versions.
This is a new area for all of us.
The economics with packing small packs to larger packs is always a consideration.

May be all who are interested should weigh in and give the US dealers some hints as to what is required, so they can then decide direction from the demand of the market.

I would like to make some comments about your coating method.
I am not trying to knock it and am happy you are using more.
The reality is that you do not need a "thick coating" for the Hi-Tek to work OK.
Final finished coating needs to have just enough cover to provide a thin film to separate alloy from barrel.
Any "extra" is merely a cosmetic finish without providing much additional benefits.

The mere fact that you are coating "thick" may be some of the reasons why you may get some problematic areas showing up.


The coating is very insulating. When applying heat, the thicker coats reduce heat transfer into the alloy, and you may get much higher temperatures outside coating than inside with the alloy.

I can guess, that you may get up to 15-20 degrees difference with alloy temperature to outside coating temperature at any specific time.

This temperature "difference" can be much more evident with all the metallic coatings, as they are much more heat insulating than plain coloured coatings and is more evident with all the metallic coatings.

From the colour of your Red Copper, it seems that it is much darker in the picture than what I have seen previously. I expect this colour, with longer & higher temperature cooking.

For experimentation purposes, can I request that you have a go at coating with much thinner coating applications, (two coats) and compare results to what you are now doing.
This should provide some comparative information, and may also save you some money as well.

OOOOOPs I just may have reduced sales.....lol..lol

[Love Life]

I do coat thick, and it is solely for cosmetic reasons. I do not like to load ugly boolits that look like they have an STD!!

I started at 12 minutes and moved up in 1 minute increments all the way to 24 minutes. It was pretty exhausting to be honest. At all time settings, the coating passed the smash test and succeeded in the shooting test. Same for cook temp testing. I settled on 18 minutes for 40/45 caliber bullets and 16 minutes for 35/38 caliber bullets. <---This is all with the powdered HI-TEK. I need to continue testing to how long I can bake before failure, but I really enjoy shooting more than testing...plus after all the testing all you get is naysayers doo doing all over the results without chipping in any effort.

I also coat heavily with the liquid coating system, but only because I don't like ugly boolits. I have it on the highest authority (with absolutely no proof or research) that pretty boolits shoot better than ugly boolits.

I don't know if the powder I have is red copper. It is more fire engine than anything and has no metallic qualities. The pictures of boolits I posted have been twice coated with powdered HI-TEK using ratios 1:4, 1:5, and 1:6 Powder:Acetone with TBS being the measurements. If I coated more boolits at a time it would be thinner, but once again, I like pretty boolits.

As for packaging, I much prefer a jar over premeasured amounts. How does the powder seller know how many boolits I want to coat? Psh on that noise...

[Love Life]

In reference to heat and coating thickness. All of my ratios went through the same bake time and temp testing. All passed and shot fine. The 1:6 actually coated thinner than I like on the 1st coat, but the way this stuff coats, the 2nd coat provided the coverage I wanted for pretty boolits.

[mcyrier]

Rec'd my first batch of black Hi-Tec paint today in the mail from Gateway Bullets. They are quick ship and very easy to deal with. I was ready and set up with the equipment and had read over these posts. Using a 45 acp RNFP 200 gn bullet I cast myself, and following the instructions from Gateway (I didn't read them, I just glanced-hate to lose my man card) the first coating passed the smash and wipe test.

108321
Smash Test
108320
After second coat
108323
And then they were sized and put in a case.
108324
I'm going to the range to try them out tomorrow . I'll report back what happens.

[Love Life]

Wonderful!!

[runfiverun]

still paying attention.

so this IS a cross linked polymer coating....
if so is there anything [ph neutral or above] being used to help the crosslink ?
or is it all heat dependent?

[Gateway Bullets]

Rec'd my first batch of black Hi-Tec paint today in the mail from Gateway Bullets. They are quick ship and very easy to deal with. I was ready and set up with the equipment and had read over these posts. Using a 45 acp RNFP 200 gn bullet I cast myself, and following the instructions from Gateway (I didn't read them, I just glanced-hate to lose my man card) the first coating passed the smash and wipe test.

Thanks for the compliment! If they fail when when shooting, then TURN IN YOUR MAN CARD!!!! lol lol lol

[HI-TEK]

still paying attention.

so this IS a cross linked polymer coating....
if so is there anything [ph neutral or above] being used to help the crosslink ?
or is it all heat dependent?

The reply is Yes and no.
Sorry.
1, Polymer is a hybridised system not a cross linked coating.
2. Yes, heat is factor for cure and curing density as well as cross linking.
3. Every thing that is required for system to work correctly, has been included already, and, "additions" of ingredients to promote crosslinking may or may not improve polymer properties.

[mcyrier]

Gateway Bullets gave a tip to cool the boolits between the coats by putting a fan on them. In the thumbnail of my post above I rotated the fan head parallel with the floor and set the tray on top of it. Worked great for air circulation.

[Ausglock]

Well. Second coat was applied and left to dry for 1 day. This was because I was busy with work and didn't to it yesterday :-)

The second coat was baked for 20 minutes and 2 bullets removed every minute from 10 minutes to 20.

Long story short.......all bullets smashed and wiped fine. even the 20 minute bullets.

So the bullets first coat has actually been baked for 40 minutes!!!

I sized these and they size fine. Smash after sizing is still 100% perfect.
So... does anyone that coats for rifles with red copper want to try my 20 minute process for rifle bullets and check accuracy against 10 minute bake bullets??

[runfiverun]

thank's HI-TEK.
I was wondering.
I work with cross linkers quite frequently and temperature is important but so is the PH, in fact we control the relax of the fibers, the cross-link, and the crash through ph.
we also have to change our catalyst [for the ph crash [break] depending on temperature.
funny thing about that is the catatlyst actually changes the PH of the mix itself so you have to change the buffering agent to counter act it so that the ph will be high enough to get a good crosslink.
that's after using a buffering agent to lower the ph enough for the fibers to relax and straighten out.

I know with the poly's you actually lay a strand[s] out and the fibers do actually form a type of cross weave pattern once they relax.
and then they turn hard from the temperature drop.
short version.

[prickett]

The information on cook times is very interesting. Frankly, I'm surprised that something that has been in use on this board, hasn't been tested this way before. Just out of curiosity, where did the whole "cook it longer than 12 minutes/cook it at too high of a temperature and it becomes brittle come from"? Seems like these tests are dispelling that. Did someone actually experience brittleness or was it pure speculation?

[Ausglock]

Prickett. It came from " Lets see what happens" idea.
Commercial casters are after quick turn over. so all coating and limited testing was focused on their process as stated above by HI-TEK.

But.. this has only been tested once by me on the red/copper coating. I am going to do the same for the non-metallic black coating. Also the colour does darken a large amount. The red/copper went a dark brown.
Also the extra bake time will not affect hobby caster/coaters, but will not be of use to commercial casters as time is money.

This red/copper was the new powdered DRY-TEK coating that is a totally different beast to the liquid coating that has been in use for over 20 years. I intend to try the same thing with liquid red/copper coating to see how it goes.

The ones that have been baked for the 20 minutes are getting loaded and fired tomorrow out of my SV racegun.

Anyone want to try this with rifle bullets?????

[SpotHound]

Yeah, I do, will Joe send some to Perth. I will put them through a 30/30.

[220]

I've run into a problem that I know has been raised before but I don't know the answer.
Just retested some boolits I coated around 3 months ago, at the time and a week or 2 later they passed the smash test with flying colours, they are now flaking when smash tested.
What has happened in the months between? Obviously something has or they wouldn't have passed to start with.
This is with the blue/green and gold metallic although far worse with the blue/green.

[Gateway Bullets]

Interesting..... I spilled a box of black 45-200 swc in the bed of my truck about 6 months ago and they have been there ever since. I blew off the dust and they look and test just fine.

[prickett]

I've run into a problem that I know has been raised before but I don't know the answer.
Just retested some boolits I coated around 3 months ago, at the time and a week or 2 later they passed the smash test with flying colours, they are now flaking when smash tested.
What has happened in the months between? Obviously something has or they wouldn't have passed to start with.
This is with the blue/green and gold metallic although far worse with the blue/green.


Hmmm, maybe the same tests need to be run, but waiting a couple of months before doing the smash tests to see if brittleness occurs over time.

[HI-TEK]

The information on cook times is very interesting. Frankly, I'm surprised that something that has been in use on this board, hasn't been tested this way before. Just out of curiosity, where did the whole "cook it longer than 12 minutes/cook it at too high of a temperature and it becomes brittle come from"? Seems like these tests are dispelling that. Did someone actually experience brittleness or was it pure speculation?

Hi,
Apology for my long reply, but you did raise a good question, and, hopefully you will appreciate my response.
The brittleness was in fact a historical problem , (20 plus years ago), when product was first started to be developed.
The brittleness warning was left on the data sheet, because some folk still want to coat very thick coatings, and advice is there, so people realise that it is a very hard coating, and that is also why we advise people, to use as thin coating as possible to do the job.

However, over the years, due to the volume market demand, we further developed these coatings, so that there was a balance of hardness, flexibility and adhesion.

As production speed/rate was the prime aim, and for product to be suitable for high volume market here, we have not returned to do testing, to see how the newer generation systems behaved, as there appeared, no real reason to simply continue baking until destruction was achieved.

Further, we used various materials, that were affected by prolong heating, and resin also darkened which then made finished product less pretty.
The discolouration on over baked products still seemed to work OK, but people complained that product was "not the same colour as before", "it is no good" and on it went.

People also did not like the darker coloured product, so it affected sales.
Some colours simply either changed drastically or disappeared.

Because of "picky" buyers demands, we used the "final colour" that was acceptable and pretty, as a guide "indicator" reference point , and, we can also see when heating or excessive cooking has occurred.
(Quality control)

As there is a huge demand apparently in the US for "Harder coating" approaching Jacketed hardness, we have developed a harder resin with intent to try to satisfy market pressures.
Product was sent to the US in commercial volumes.

Quite frankly, until recently, we have never thought to try cooking these coatings, for extended periods.

What is known, that curing product at 200C for 10 minutes, at that point we set the polymer adequately suitable for majority of applications.
We also know, at that point, the polymer is still not 100% fully cured or "hardened".

We also advise, that the polymer has built in "reserve" property, that allows high energy, from friction heat and gun powder heat for the coating to further "react" to those conditions and cope, but not fuse or not melt nor become sticky and do not bond to bore..

The rational used now, is to examine and determine, at what point the product will being to fail and also take away some of the myths that have developed.

The other "cooking tests" we can conduct is to subject the coated alloy to 210C and 220C for 10 minute periods, to determine what happens.
This results should provide commercial casters and hobbyists, a "window" of time frame at specific time/cure conditions, without having to bake for extended periods which slows production and increases costs.

As Ausglock said, now, that we know, that what he did, has been found OK and apparently not damaged coating adhesion, these results now reverse/eliminate some concerns about product failing due to over cooking reasons.

Again apology for long reply.

[HI-TEK]

I've run into a problem that I know has been raised before but I don't know the answer.
Just retested some boolits I coated around 3 months ago, at the time and a week or 2 later they passed the smash test with flying colours, they are now flaking when smash tested.
What has happened in the months between? Obviously something has or they wouldn't have passed to start with.
This is with the blue/green and gold metallic although far worse with the blue/green.


Can you please advise what alloy you used?
It may shed some light on why there may be long term loss of adhesion of coating.

[Ausglock]

My next testing will be with liquid coating.
I have coated some of the same bullets with a 5-1-7 mix of Brick red coating. these will get baked tomorrow for 20 minutes with the same bullet selection process.

I am also going to try some that are baked at 220Deg C for 6 minutes to see if that works.
If it does, I'll go to 250 DEG C for 4 minutes.
Why???
Just for schits N Giggles to see what happens.

[HI-TEK]

My next testing will be with liquid coating.
I have coated some of the same bullets with a 5-1-7 mix of Brick red coating. these will get baked tomorrow for 20 minutes with the same bullet selection process.

I am also going to try some that are baked at 220Deg C for 6 minutes to see if that works.
If it does, I'll go to 250 DEG C for 4 minutes.
Why???
Just for schits N Giggles to see what happens.


Good ideas.
I go have some concerns about some ovens not being able to get to those temperatures, especially the hobbyist type ovens.

With heat testing,
there is another parameter that is not known.
When uncoated alloy is placed into the oven, it should absorb heat quickly.
As coatings reflect heat, at same settings and metal loads, the heat going into alloy should be absorbed at a slower rate.
Obviously, two or 3 coats will also reduce heat absorption at increased levels.

What would be great, if we could monitor in real time, and plot a graph, the temperature of oven versus temperature of alloy internally, without and with coatings.

That way we can determine, say at 200C, non coated alloy at 10 minutes, will get to a specific temperature inside, possibly to 200C, and then repeat same test with one coat, and then two coats at same loads and settings.

I am guessing, but I think, that there may be a significant difference with heat transfer rates with non coated alloy as compared to coated alloys.
I also think, that two and three coated alloys may not get to the 200C after ten minutes.

This then may explain, why some have problems with coating "not working" as it should.

Any one with ideas???

[Ausglock]

one temp probe in the oven and a second probe drilled into the core of a bullet should display any temp differential.

[220]

Can you please advise what alloy you used?
It may shed some light on why there may be long term loss of adhesion of coating.

The gold was on range salvaged lead, should be very close to commercial alloys as I sort pulling out the swaged HBWC and round balls. What is left would be nearly all commercial cast from HR and Westcast as they seem to be the most popular brands used by club members.
Blue/green was on a mix of straight COWW and 50/50COWW/pure lead.
I do recall a similar post earlier in this thread but cant recall if the cause was discovered, I'll work my way back through all the old posts and see.

[HI-TEK]

The gold was on range salvaged lead, should be very close to commercial alloys as I sort pulling out the swaged HBWC and round balls. What is left would be nearly all commercial cast from HR and Westcast as they seem to be the most popular brands used by club members.
Blue/green was on a mix of straight COWW and 50/50COWW/pure lead.
I do recall a similar post earlier in this thread but cant recall if the cause was discovered, I'll work my way back through all the old posts and see.



Previous such results, as you seem to have experienced, were found to be from alloys containing Zinc and Cadmium.
Initially, coating bonded well, and with time, it simply lets go.

I am not sure what each manufacturer uses as alloys, so I cant comment.

I question that any range, in the majority would have alloys from only two manufacturers.

Range Scrap, is not all "correct" alloys, as people use whatever Lead is available including wheel weights, and it is very difficult to separate and identify composition of shot projectiles by simply looking at them.

To determine composition, you would have to have alloy tested by Atomic absorption.

What happens with Zinc and Cadmium type contaminants in Lead alloys is, that they seem to produce a white powdery Oxidation on alloy surface with time.
This Oxidation is then becomes the film between coatings and alloys which then seems to affect long term adhesion.

This powdery film, reminds me to salt coming out of stone and drying on the surface.

Coatings cannot cope with such a problem.

Usually, metals are acid pickled/etched to remove surface reactive metals that may produce such corrosion problems and where good bonding is required.

My initial suspicion is, that alloy composition is not up to scratch.

[prickett]

Again apology for long reply.

No apology needed. It's a very interesting history. Thank you for explaining.

Extended cooking is good news as we can ensure the product is fully cured and also so we don't have to be so careful about pulling out our trays after exactly 12 minutes.

[Rompin Ruger]

I've read thru all this from the beginning and talked (email) with one US supplier at length.

One thing puzzles me in advance of actually getting set up to try all this.

I keep reading about so many pounds of this or that bullet and how long to bake... 9mm, 10mm, 45 acp, etc.

How can bake times be consistent with larger, heavier caliber bullets as smaller lighter ones? I mean, it seems to my fragile mind that a 45 Colt 280 gr. bullet is going to take a good bit longer to come to an even internal temperature than an equal total poundage of .45 or 9mm bullets?! Being far larger, heavier, denser, the 45 colt is going to take longer to reach internal temps. Did I miss something? I read every new post that comes along, but that fact seems to be lost with the semi shooters being the majority of users.

I'm not going to invest in probes and drilling bullets to see when the internal temp of heavy slugs reaches "cook temp" but it does seem to be a variable...same total poundage of bullets that are 25% heavier seemingly would take longer to reach "temp"?

NO?

[HI-TEK]

I've read thru all this from the beginning and talked (email) with one US supplier at length.

One thing puzzles me in advance of actually getting set up to try all this.

I keep reading about so many pounds of this or that bullet and how long to bake... 9mm, 10mm, 45 acp, etc.

How can bake times be consistent with larger, heavier caliber bullets as smaller lighter ones? I mean, it seems to my fragile mind that a 45 Colt 280 gr. bullet is going to take a good bit longer to come to an even internal temperature than an equal total poundage of .45 or 9mm bullets?! Being far larger, heavier, denser, the 45 colt is going to take longer to reach internal temps. Did I miss something? I read every new post that comes along, but that fact seems to be lost with the semi shooters being the majority of users.

I'm not going to invest in probes and drilling bullets to see when the internal temp of heavy slugs reaches "cook temp" but it does seem to be a variable...same total poundage of bullets that are 25% heavier seemingly would take longer to reach "temp"?

NO?

The answers are simple.
Get a good oven with Cyclone air circulation and adequate heating recovery capability, and with a good quality thermostat.
Use weight of projectiles instead of number of projectiles, and dont overload..
Consistent weight loads into the oven, will be equal time for all calibers at set temperature.
My reference to measuring internal and external temperatures was to actually measure what happens to heat transfer rates when coating is applied.
I never expected the home user to carry out such tests as it really has no meaning for the average person.
It is a technical detail that can explain results with heat transfer rate changes.

[runfiverun]

it would also be real helpful when water dropping, for a consistent bhn from batch to batch.

[Ausglock]

Core temp testing is for my info only. You only need the bullet to reach 180Deg C, not the core. The surface is what is in contact with the coating.
Fired the 20 minute bake bullets today. Fired fine. Accurate and barrel is clean. No difference to the normal 12 minute bake bullets with the same coating and bullet.

[220]

I question that any range, in the majority would have alloys from only two manufacturers.


Small club with less than 40 members, only about 50% shoot centre fires, Im the only one who casts apart from a few of the BP shooters who cast round ball.
May be a small percentage that isn't from the manufacturers mentioned but shooting with them every week I know what everyone is using.

Could be some contamination in the COWW or pure lead, I guess I will have to smelt it all again and see if it cleans up.
Mould fill out was good so didn't think zinc would be an issue. I guess I will leave a few uncoated from each session and see if I get any oxidation on them with time.

So the next question, If I cast and leave them 3 months before coating am I going to run into any trouble apart from contaminate oxidation. I guess it should be visable by this time but is there anything else that will effect the bond if they are left for this amount of time?

[Ausglock]

I have had 45 pills cast from range reclaim and left to sit for a few months prior to coating. No problems.
Check your process.

[Love Life]

I just fired some 45 acps that were coated over 7 months ago. No leading or any other issues.

[runfiverun]

calcium would probably also cause the coating issue...
zinc could easily be in a ww alloy you wouldn't even notice it until it got over about 2% except that the boolits would be a bit harder than normal.

[kentuckycajun]

Took the plunge and bought some red copper (liquid) from Donnie at Bayou Bullets. After reading through about 1500 *whew* of the 3540 posts here, I'm sure I have the process down before trying this - just can't wait to finish reading the other 2000+ posts :shock:


I have a nice convection oven and a DVOM with K type thermocouple. I placed a tray of uncoated boolits, about 200 158g RFP, to see how the oven would respond. It took about 5 minutes for the oven to come back up to 375. Should this be counted as cook time, or does time start when oven has come back up to the 375 deg temp? It regulated well between 370-380 through the cycles.

Will post back with pics after my first batch...

[Ausglock]

Cajun.
Turn oven on.
Set at 200 Deg C.
Let heat up until the thermostat turns the heating off when temp is reached.
Insert Tray of bullets and set the timer for 12 Minutes at this time.
At the 6 minute mark, you can open the oven, take the tray of bullets out and shake them and replace back into the oven.
Leave until the timer turn the oven off.
Remove tray of baked bullets.
Let bullets cool and repeat.

[leadman]

Since you will be opening the oven and placing boolits in it each time you will want to include the time it takes to recover up to temperature. Have you placed a brick or stones in your oven to help stabilize the temperature?
Donnie is great to deal with so if you have any start-up issues give him a call.
With the Red Copper make sure the coating is mixed well as the solids like to gather at the bottom of the container. I use a clear container so it is easier to see if the coating is mixed well. Go light on the first coat.

[HI-TEK]

one temp probe in the oven and a second probe drilled into the core of a bullet should display any temp differential.


That would be great to do.
However, it would be much better if we could then plot the readings on a graph continuously, against time.

I wonder who would have such equipment, even if we need to hire it, to do the tests.
It would really provide some interesting results.

[kweidner]

I have a probe I might try this with this afternoon as I coat the ones cast before vacation. I only use one rack in my ovens currently but am trying to source a commercial convection. I got about 10k to cast and catch up but the new bullet master has allowed me to focus on baking while casting. :razz: Ausglock if you find 6 minutes acceptable for new powder I will be doing the happy dance. I still use three coats for cosmetic reasons and that would cut bake time significantly at 10000 a day! I am moving to the "new" gold for the resin properties.

[HI-TEK]

I have a probe I might try this with this afternoon as I coat the ones cast before vacation. I only use one rack in my ovens currently but am trying to source a commercial convection. I got about 10k to cast and catch up but the new bullet master has allowed me to focus on baking while casting. :razz: Ausglock if you find 6 minutes acceptable for new powder I will be doing the happy dance. I still use three coats for cosmetic reasons and that would cut bake time significantly at 10000 a day! I am moving to the "new" gold for the resin properties.


Not so fast gungadin....lol ( I will need a video of your happy dance)

The secret of speeding up of cooking, is to have a cyclone air circulation inside your oven.
And I mean a cyclone, not just air circulation.

Air is a very poor conductor heat transfer medium.

You need to have the heated air, touch the projectiles as many times as possible to transfer contained heat to the alloy.

The faster air is circulated, the faster the heat will get transferred into coated alloys and more even bake.
Simply increasing temperature is not the complete answer, you may achieve reduction of cook times by simply an increase air circulation rate.

Combining air cyclone and higher temperatures is ideal set up..

Downside of higher temperatures is that in a static oven system, from batch to batch, you may get variations with colour and cure, and it will occur much quicker.

Flow though ovens, (mainly for commercial suppliers), have better possibility to control exposures to heat more accurately.

I am hoping that Ausglocks tests work out OK, but only time will tell.

I have some reservations about a few colours, and especially a few liquid versions, coping with longer cure time at set temperatures, and in fact may fail at elevated temperatures, or fail when cooked at longer times as same temperatures.

Again test will reveal all.

[kentuckycajun]

Cajun.
Turn oven on.
Set at 200 Deg C.
Let heat up until the thermostat turns the heating off when temp is reached.
Insert Tray of bullets and set the timer for 12 Minutes at this time.
At the 6 minute mark, you can open the oven, take the tray of bullets out and shake them and replace back into the oven.
Leave until the timer turn the oven off.
Remove tray of baked bullets.
Let bullets cool and repeat.


Therein lies my question: Being it takes my oven 5 minutes to come back up to temp, they would have only been exposed to 200 deg for about 1 min when I open the door to shake them around (at the 6 min mark). When I replace them after shaking, I'm sure it will come back up to temp faster (as the boolits are already hot), though I haven't timed the second temp recovery.
If it takes 2-3 minutes to come back to temp the second time (just a guess), them that only exposes them to 200 deg for another 3-4 minutes. Will this be enough to properly cure the coating?

[Ausglock]

When you shake at the 1/2 way point, you only have them out of the oven for 2 seconds while shaking. That is all that is needed.

You should be fine. suck it and see.

[kentuckycajun]

Hmmm - I wonder
if I just shook the whole oven....:kidding:

[HI-TEK]

Hmmm - I wonder
if I just shook the whole oven....:kidding:


Good point.....lol

The cooking is not all that "sensitive"
Simply try a few, at what ever settings you decide, around 200C, cook for 5-6 minutes, remove tray, shake to move around projectiles, and replace back into the oven and finish cooking for 5-6 minutes again..
Check cooled product, and if all is OK, coat again.

[Michael J. Spangler]

i cooked about 1k mixed today
358429
358156
358495
mp454200

that batch went for 15 minutes at 375. it was the second coat. passes all the test perfectly

i was in a rush with the next batch which was all 358156 and mp 454200 so i checking it at about 9 or so minutes just for the heck of it.
i checked a random bullet from each style i was coating. passed flawlessly also.

this coating has plenty of leeway. if i've learned anything from following this giant thread for months its that as long as you have consistent heat, and coat properly you can get the job done. a little high or a little low on temp or a little lees or more on time and you're still good.
its such an awesome product.
oh by the way i'm using gold coating and i have a kelvinator home sized electric oven that was given to me from a friend. he used to use it for powder coating. once its up to temp its very consistent.

[Gremlin460]

Hmmm - I wonder
if I just shook the whole oven....:kidding:

Drill a hole in the side of the oven and shake the tray with a wire hook, no need to open door..:redneck:

[Rick45Colt]

I finally got around to making steel baskets for baking yesterday. Someone gave me a toaster oven but it is not a convection. If I have read correctly this can be critical. Opinions, please?

[leadman]

Rick, if you are just doing small batches a toaster oven can be used. A Walmart DVOM with the thermocouple for $20 is a big aid in making sure you have the correct baking temperatures.
One of my oven is an old Black & Decker with a door that rolls back and up that I use a pid with. I use it for baking boolits and preheating my molds. My other 2 are convection ovens.
Check out the thrift stores for convection ovens. I bought one for $10 and the other for $4.

[Gremlin460]

Ausglock once made a suggestion to me that I think has Hi Merits, drill a hole in the oven and fit motor on outside and fan on inside, taken that suggestion and add in HiTek's mention that high heat turbulence is a good thing makes this idea even more attractive.

Lets face it, none of the oven manufactures had what we do in mind, and even our "convection" ovens are a mere breeze compared to what we really could do with.

[leadman]

Gremlin, I have been thinking of doing what Ausglock suggested. I have one of my convection ovens that the fan motor is getting lazy. I have taken it apart but it is a really cheap motor. I do have 5 or 6 small motor around so might be able to retrofit one of them.
My best convection oven moves alot of air and I do not open it until the timer runs out and the boolits are all baked evenly.
When I had the fan out of my convection oven I found out that it blows outside air into the oven rather than recirculating heated air. This could be the reason some of the ovens do not recover very fast. The fan blade is plastic.

[HI-TEK]

Gremlin, I have been thinking of doing what Ausglock suggested. I have one of my convection ovens that the fan motor is getting lazy. I have taken it apart but it is a really cheap motor. I do have 5 or 6 small motor around so might be able to retrofit one of them.
My best convection oven moves alot of air and I do not open it until the timer runs out and the boolits are all baked evenly.
When I had the fan out of my convection oven I found out that it blows outside air into the oven rather than recirculating heated air. This could be the reason some of the ovens do not recover very fast. The fan blade is plastic.


Leadman,
You can get from electric wholesalers, specific domestic oven fans (aftermarket stuff) , that are supplied with two metal fans.
I got one and got stung a bit on price.

But, I managed to get a tool shop to make me an extension shaft for the fan motor.
I mounted motor on the outside with shaft going through wall of oven.
Mounted fan inside oven, and it works great.
Motor does not get hot and has bushes instead of bearings.

I have an inline power switch, so I can turn fan off first, before opening the oven, so I don't bang any thing into rotating fan whilst taking out or loading stuff..

Unless you open oven, and keep door open for long time, I doubt that very short periods of open oven door should affect too much the baking cycle.

If you loose some temperature during half way whilst "shake and return tray", simply leave in the product a little longer to finish bake say 1 minute or two.

The "Shake & return tray at half way point", this was a suggestion made by someone, for people who don't have good air circulation inside their ovens and may get large temperature cycling, and variation with cooking.

If you have internal fan, it is not so much a problem, and getting good air circulation, eliminates the removal at half way to shake tray.

[leadman]

I went to the range yesterday with my 1960s' era Savage 110 CL 30-06 and some heat treated linotype boolits coated with the Gold 1035 (3 coats), and Hornady gas checks. The boolit was Lee's 30 caliber 200gr RN sized .309". Powder was H1000 and a Winchester large rifle primer. Overall length was 3.19" . Range was 100 yards. 5 shots

Here are the results:
Charge Avg. Velocity Group Size
55 grs 2,354 fps 1.435"
56grs 2,396 fps 1.715"
57grs 2,427 fps 1.646"

Bore was very clean and shiny after shooting. This is the first time I have used this powder and it was amazing how clean the bore was.109083109084109082

The pictures uploaded out of order so they are #2, #3, #1.

[leadman]

When I was at the range Thursday I also shot a Type 99 Arisaka that I recently purchased. The shooting was done at 25 yards since I had no idea where the boolits might end up. This is a full military gun with original sights, mum, uncut stock.
Here is the info on the load:
S&B 8X57 case reformed to 7.7X58 (a little short but works fine)
Lee 160-312-TL (actually 170grs) sized .315"
Hi-Tek Red Copper
copper GC
MagTech LR primer
18grs IMR SR4759
3.055" OAL
5 shots
25 yards
1,492 fps
.416" group size.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I have had 45 pills cast from range reclaim and left to sit for a few months prior to coating. No problems.
Check your process.

I can get range lead for relatively cheap locally. This would be an acceptable alloy for 45acp??

I shot (actually my son) shot a full USPSA match with the coated 45's that I did earlier. I still have a little bit of leading. It was just over 100 rnds, but it was pretty much the same amount of leading I got when I shot 25-50 rnds for testing. It doesn't seem to get any worse as I continue to shoot.

These boolits are from a Lee tumble lube mold. Maybe the TL boolit is causing some issues?? There isn't a lot of surface on this mold.

I am going to add some shot to my alloy and try some 40's. My 40 mold is not a TL design.

[Ausglock]

Range reclaim (8 to 10 BHN) is fine for 45ACP. This is what I'm using with 2 coats of Kryptonite Green. The bullet is Use now is the Hardline 230gn RN. But I have used the Lee 230gn RNTL with no issues. There is a lot of leading caused by the lack of proper throating in barrels. Most barrels are throated for jacketed. I reamed the throat of my Para GI Expert and can now seat longer and zero leading. Accuracy has improved as an added bonus. From 15 yards 6 of 8 shots went through the same hole. the other 2 shots were like the ears on the mickey mouse club hat. All hand held standing.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I did a second coat on a 10 or so pound batch today. Placed it in the oven.
Totally forgot about it. Left to buy some sandpaper and didn't pull the batch for probably 40 minutes.
They were dark but other than that they passed the tests and look great to me.
God I love this coating.

[HI-TEK]

I did a second coat on a 10 or so pound batch today. Placed it in the oven.
Totally forgot about it. Left to buy some sandpaper and didn't pull the batch for probably 40 minutes.
They were dark but other than that they passed the tests and look great to me.
God I love this coating.


You are a naughty person.
Fancy you abusing the poor coatings that way...lol...lol

Main thing is, did they shoot OK?
Now for the dreary details, what gun, calibre, feet per second etc etc.. (some may actually wish to know such details)

What colour coating did you use, and what colour were they when you finished them?
Before and after pictures would be great.

Thanks much...Joe

[Michael J. Spangler]

I haven't shot any yet but I'll let you all know as soon as I do
It was the gold liquid coating. They turned out pretty dark almost a light cinnamon color. They kind of nice.
I'll let you know how the shoot.
I'll have to take some pics tomorrow side by side with the batch that I didn't over cook.

Just goes to show once again this coating can take a beating and isn't something you need to baby and get exactly perfect each time. It still works! Plenty of room for operator error.

[Michael J. Spangler]

So I tried to take a picture of them side by side.
There isn't really much difference. I guess if I used my light tent I could get a decent picture but there isn't really much difference to speak of.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Here we go.

1st coat dried.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zpsecb028d5.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zpsecb028d5.jpg.html)

Cooked at 400° for 14 minutes. (only at 400 for the last 4 minutes) And wiped with lacquer thinner. No color on the paper towel.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zps99ee3e62.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zps99ee3e62.jpg.html)

Smash test.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zps10b70859.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zps10b70859.jpg.html)

[ItZaLLgooD]

2nd coat. Drying

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zps5fa5d416.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zps5fa5d416.jpg.html)

Again, 400° for 14 minutes. really rubbed with lacquer thinner, still no color on the paper towel.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zpsf15a7fdf.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zpsf15a7fdf.jpg.html)

Last smash test.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q580/ellisamplification/temporary_zpsd1f66590.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/ellisamplification/media/temporary_zpsd1f66590.jpg.html)