blackpowder expectations

[johnson1942]

just try a single felt wad behind the bullet and see if things improve. this has done the trick for some big time shooters ive talked to.

[bigted]

so i bought some .380 inch 275 grain boolits from baco that were lubed with SPG. have had em for a bit so i figured why not load a few to try thru my browning custom 38-55. load were such;

baco .380 inch 275 grain flat points
cci 200 large rifle primers
52 grains GOEX cartridge powder
.060 walters vegi wad
2.118 inch long starline cases
finger seated boolits over compressed powder of .450 inch with a compression tool from baco,,straightened flair with the size die,,crimp with a lee factory crimper,,used a blow tube i recently made from an old case and some clear tubing.

shooting went like such;

loaded 1 and shot,,blow tube with the rifle with muzzle down with 4 long breaths,,loaded 1 and ect ect for 5 shots...coulda pushed me over with a feather. all 5 in the same hole with a group at my short 35 yards to be covered with a dime. wowwwww!!!!

best ive EVER done with bp. NO cookies...NO lube wads ...NO felt wads...NO swabing...,,,...when i cleaned my rifle i was in for another shock...hardly ANY fouling at all. the first patch with ballistol mix came out pretty clean [much cleaner then any before in any calibre] and the second cleaned the remainder completely...oiled and away.

so two things happened here as i can see that ive never done before...1- use of SPG lube...2- use a blow tube with the muzzle pointed down so all the moisture went into the barrel from my lungs.

im so happy...im hoping that it wernt a fluke and that i can repeat this performance...i also see that the rifle range is open again from winter so ill give the 100 yd line a big ol try with this sweet shooting rifle. ive done this good with smokless powder before but NEVER EVER with blackpowder...and loading was so simple and straight forward...no drop tube...no cookies...no mess with the felt lubed wads...just load em and shoot em...who woulda ever thunk it?

[Don McDowell]

See there, that nasty ol blackpowder can shoot with smokeless.

[semtav]

bigted

I had just the opposite experience as you. I could get good accuracy on paper with the smokeless, but it wasn't consistant. When I switched to BP, and took the time to work up a good load it was night and day difference. But I only worked with my lightest cartridge (40-65) till i had it right. --Load, shooting and fouling control--- only then did I move on to the next gun. ( and in hindsight, I should have spent another year with the 40-65 before I went on.) I can't count the number of rounds I shot just to see if one little thing would improve the load. Bp does take a lot more work to get perfect. Not only do you need good fouling control, but you need good fouling control technique too.
Only when the wheels fell off my shooting and fouling control technique did BP loose its accuracy, and the only thing I found to match it is BH-209.

[bigted]

i cant say how much powder and lead ive shot in the last three years trying to get this bp to shoot with smokless but its been a bunch. i did try the blowtube early in my travel but somehow it didnt work at all so i took up swabbing to control fouling...got tired of that so set about trying to find a way to shoot bp without any fouling control. this took me to paperpatching and cookies and felt lubed wads and on n on n on...i have found a few ways to have hunting style accuracy but the final accuracy has always eluded me. when the frustration got the better of me i simply went to the old standby in smokless to reassure myself that i could really even shoot anymore.

goes to show that the simple things are king most of the time. i have much road to travel but now im encouraged...specially if i can repeat my performance from today with a repeat event...got em loaded and plan to visit the range tomarrow if things go rite...will see

thanks for all the ideas and encouragment fella's... my loading room is pleasantly smelling like burned bp now and i just smile when i smell it...now even more.

[Boz330]

Not to discourage you but what shoots good on one outing doesn't necessarily do it the next time out. It is definitely on the right track though. And what works for one gun doesn't necessarily work for the next one. The 38-55 is known for it's accuracy and you aren't burning those huge amounts of powder either.
I actually had a pretty easy time getting my 38-55 to shoot well. I'm using Swiss and compressing it .500. I did shoot some smokeless in it a couple times and it shot well with it as well.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Ted you'ld be surprised at how well just blowing down the barrel from the muzzle works (like folks do with a muzzle loader) altho I don't know if doing that at a match or other gathering of folks, might not get a small tempest started..

[Boz330]

Ted you'ld be surprised at how well just blowing down the barrel from the muzzle works (like folks do with a muzzle loader) altho I don't know if doing that at a match or other gathering of folks, might not get a small tempest started..

Without a doubt!

Bob

[bigted]

i do this consistantly with my muzzleloader but didnt get satasfactory results with my first use of the blow tube on the cartridge rifles...dont know unless it were becouse i didnt hold the barrel in the downward position so as to have all the moisture go with gravity 'down' the barrel such as happens with a muzzleloader.

between these two things...blowtube "DOWN" the barrel and using SPG lube ...im hoping that im on the rite track.

had i been a few decades younger i might have done the blowing down from the muzzle at the range just to see what folks would do or say but...these years have mellowed me enough that just the thought is enough to provide a smile. would make a stir tho im bettin.

[MT Chambers]

My experience has been much different then the original poster, with the big old cartridges 45/70 or bigger, BP fills the case and good accuracy follows.(with some playing around). In my 45/70s, 45/100 and 50/90 accuracy is tops with BP, I'm also not happy with these large cases only half full of smokeless or fillers or even wads to hold powder down near the primer.

[RMulhern]

Anyone with one eye and half a brain that has been into the smokeless world for a number of years knows that smokeless rifle cartridges perform best for accuracy when the case is loaded with a dense charge! What's a dense charge? Contrary to the opinion of many...this is not a charge near maximum pressure but one whereby with appropriate powder choice that gives a full case with the powder at the level of the bullet base. I've tried in the past several powders in my old 30/06 match rifle that only filled the case about half way and these were not reliable because they gave what I call 'spitz-bangs' which is characterized by an initial small recoil followed by a larger recoil. Accuracy was excellent for hitting.....DUE EAST! I fail to see whereby loading SP into a large case designed for BP can be conducive to good performance WITHOUT using some form of 'packing' to keep the powder adjacent to the primer!

Now...you can proceed to tell me that you've been using SP in these large cases designed for BP for years without any trouble and that they give 1/2 MOA accuracy! Fine! You stick with your SP and I'll stick with BP!!

[oldred]

But several smokeless powders that yield excellent results also fill these cases to the bullet base, for example Varget and H4895 in a 45/70 can be used at loads that are actually compressed while still at relatively low pressures. While I do enjoy shooting BP in my 45/90 I also loading 4064 in that case which fills it nearly to the base of the bullet at BP pressures. Half empty cases when using smokeless are not always necessary, just a matter of which powder is chosen.

[bigted]

i also agree Rick...my smokless charges almost always dont fill the case but i ALWAYS use c/m to fill enough to provide that slight compression.

however that is NOT the cunundrem here! the problem ive had IS trying to get the same or better accuracy with my BP loads. think i may actually be on the rite track tho and im happy with my recent endeavers...thanks to the graciouse advise from fellers here.

ALSO...i did read Ricks "GHOST IN THE DARK" post and i have to say that i probably have some to learn about my shooting procedures as i DO qualify with the success with 'smokless' loads in 'smokless' chamberings with 'jaxeted' boolits so yes i do have to watch my follow thru and hold as well as my sight picture follow thru. so i do have a lot of ground to cover and im having a ball traveling thru all the mistakes which makes my advanses so satisfying to achieve.

and i THINKS that i DO have one eye AND 1/2 a brain.......maybe ..........

[oldred]

The thing is smokeless does work ok but it just ain't half as much fun!!!!

[TerryH]

Gents,

I often see all sorts of scrubbing and poking going on with BPCR's which looks like a lot of effort. I'm in the SPG and blow tube camp, which has and does work for me in Texas, Quantaco and now the UK.

I'm using standard grooved boolits, nothing special with the reloading, fibre or HDPE over wad, no grease cookies just what's on the bullet. Seems to work:



Another thing that comes into to play personnaly is the (British) NRA back in the days of military use of BPCR's banned wiping so that the civilian shooters developed loads not requiring such, as a soldier could not wipe on the battle field i.e. the military benifited from free R&D. (NB when the British military do that in modern times they end up with the best SWS in the World the AI, when they don't they end up with the SA 80 go figure? )

Brgds Terry

[Don McDowell]

I think the bigger reason behind the Brits outlawing wiping in a match , was to try and stop the Americans from kickin their butts. The Americans with the Sharps and Remington rifles loaded with patched bullet wiped between shots with their target loads. The Brits and their muzzleloaders thought this to be an upperhand, and wouldn't concede that by proxy they were wiping the bore by using the tight fitting bullets and false muzzles to load their muzzleloaders.
Fouling control no matter how you get it done is needed to maintain accuracy.

[montana_charlie]

i also agree Rick...my smokless charges almost always dont fill the case but i ALWAYS use c/m to fill enough to provide that slight compression.

I really hate to ask a smokeless question on this blackpowder forum, but ...
Since that filler will change the 'volume' of the case, isn't that a dangerous practice with smokeless powders?

CM

[45 2.1]

See there, that nasty ol blackpowder can shoot with smokeless.

Actually Don, some of those smokeless loads in 38-55 single shot rifles can do what he did at three times that distance. I saw that done at a registered CBA match a long time ago.

I really hate to ask a smokeless question on this blackpowder forum, but ... Since that filler will change the 'volume' of the case, isn't that a dangerous practice with smokeless powders? CM

Not really in a straight case of that size.............

[Don McDowell]

Yup 452.1 and I've seen blackpowder loads that would shoot circles around the smokeless loads at 1000 yds.Myself I had 38-55 loads with both powders that would shoot equally well. It's also a long established fact that back in the hayday of the target matches before short distances, smokeless and jacketed became the norm, blackpowder loaded 38-55 was the cartridge to beat in the midrange matches.
It's all in what the shooter puts into load developement, and how well they get their load to working with what ever powder they choose. As much as I truly enjoy blackpowder shooting , it's still necessary to admit the stuff went obscolete a hundred years ago for some reason.
.

[RMulhern]

Gents,

I often see all sorts of scrubbing and poking going on with BPCR's which looks like a lot of effort. I'm in the SPG and blow tube camp, which has and does work for me in Texas, Quantaco and now the UK.

I'm using standard grooved boolits, nothing special with the reloading, fibre or HDPE over wad, no grease cookies just what's on the bullet. Seems to work:



Another thing that comes into to play personnaly is the (British) NRA back in the days of military use of BPCR's banned wiping so that the civilian shooters developed loads not requiring such, as a soldier could not wipe on the battle field i.e. the military benifited from free R&D. (NB when the British military do that in modern times they end up with the best SWS in the World the AI, when they don't they end up with the SA 80 go figure? )

Brgds Terry

But But Terry........ahhhh.....those ain't in the middle!!