38-40 for rifles

[DarthTater]

I've been loading .38-40s for my Colt Lightning rifle, circa 1884 for about a year. I don't shoot it a lot, but enough that I'd rather be casting my own rather than buying them.

The question that I have is which mould to get. It seems that most of them are designed with revolvers in mind. I'm concerned that the resulting boolits aren't going to carry enough lube for the much longer rifle barrel.

I shoot on the 100 yard and 150 yard line. I'd really like to shoot cowboy pistol cartridge silhouettes, but the NRA hasn't seen fit to allow the Lightning to compete...but that's a fight for another day.

Anyway, any suggestions for moulds? I've looked at Big Lube, Accurate and Lyman. I just can't make a decision!

[Don McDowell]

I can't help but think the RCBS 180 might just carry enough lube for a rifle barrel. I sure like the way it works in my handgun.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

The Lee 40 caliber 175 grain SWC will work in a 38-40. Size to .401" and tumble lube with 45/45/10.

[Chill Wills]

The Lee 40 caliber 175 grain SWC will work in a 38-40. Size to .401" and tumble lube with 45/45/10.

Because this post is in the Black Powder Cartridge area I am thinking the fuel will be Black and so your question about how much lube a bullet design will hold.

This begs the question ... what are you going to do about fouling control? If nothing and trying to shoot a string of shots, that changes the lube requirements.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

I use the Dick Dastardly Big Lubes, over Goex 2f, from Springfield in my Original 1894 Marlin Short Rifle. Can shoot 6 stages no problems.

Sam

[Nobade]

Something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=40-190C-D.png
will likely be more accurate at longer range but require better quality powder than something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=40-185C-D.png
which will allow use of cheap powder without fouling out, but not fly as well.

I'd get both and see which worked better.

[rbertalotto]

This tread is right up my ally!

I recently reconditioned an 1873 Winchester in 38-40. After buying five molds I finally figured it out!

The BEST mold on the market for the 38-40 if you are shooting BP, is the Big Lube.....PERIOD!

I have the Lyman (grease groves too small, but it is the most Period Correct bullet)
The RCBS (great for smokeless, but shallow grease groves for BP)
Lee (You need to cut your brass down so the roll crimp works. Only good for smokeless as it is tumble lube with VERY shallow grease groves....forgetaboutit!)

The BIG LUBE is fantastic. Zero fouling after 60 rounds of CAS shooting. Excellent accuracy! Can be used with smokeless as the crimp groove is in the correct place.

Dick will sell you sample bullets to try and then deduct the cost for a mold if you decide to buy one. Don't get no better!

[Don McDowell]

This tread is right up my ally!

I I have the Lyman (grease groves too small, but it is the most Period Correct bullet)
!

Sorta begs the question how in the world did those old dead guys ever get by before the 100 and some odd years passed until someone modified the T/C maxiball for CAS shooting don't it?

[DarthTater]

Thanks for the replies, fellas.

Chill Wills, your question about fouling control is part and parcel of my situation. I thought that I'd give Dick Dastardly's Pearl Lube a try, since he claims that it keeps fouling down to a minimum. The most that I shoot is ten rounds before running a patch down the bore.

As for the Big Lube boolit, the only concern that I have is its accuracy at 100 yards or so. It seems like it's an excellent design for short range CAS shooting and I like that big ol' grease groove. Nobade, I looked at the Accurate 40-190C and it seemed like it might be a better design for "reaching out", so to speak. I just want to be sure that by the time the boolit gets to the muzzle it's still steel-on-lube and not leading up the barrel.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this - I don't know. I suppose that the thing to do is buy something like the Big Lube and something like the 40-190C and compare. I keep telling myself that I can't have too many moulds. Right?

[Don McDowell]

I measured one of the bullets from my rcbs 180 , 1/3 of the "bearing surface" is the lube groove. A quality lube in a bullet sized properly for the bore, and there should be no problems in a rifle.

[Boz330]

I doubt that the big lube groove boolit would be a problem accuracy wise at a 100yd. I have the RCBS mold and while I haven't shot it with BP from my 92 it rang a gong consistently at 175yd.

Bob

[WARD O]

I recently purchased an Accurate 40-185 C which is his big lube groove boolit. I haven't had much range time yet with it for a meaningful comment. I shot a few through an original 73 and was getting 2-3" at 50 yards - needs more testing. I have several vintage 38-40's and when time permits will get in some testing.

I did try one of the big lube boolits from NOE in a current Marlin 44-40 with black powder and groups were hanging around 3" at 50 yards. This rifle can shoot better as I have done it with smokeless.

At the moment I am a thinking that these boolits may take a little more experiementing to get them to shoot well. There have been other threads here that suggest fine accuracy is possible with these boolits and real black powder. I believe you may just have to play around with alloy and see what results.

But what are you after for accuracy? Like was mentioned, there is acceptable accuracy for CAS and then there is shooting for groups at 100 yards.

ward

[Old-Win]

What do you 38-40 shooters think is the maximum distance that you can accurately shoot your rifles. Accurate meaning 4" at a 100yds. Is the 44-40 more capable?

[Don McDowell]

Winchester claimed the 38wcf accurate to 300 yds. I would think that to still be the case when paired with a good bullet.
The biggest problem with attaining "good" accuracy with the big lube type bullets at 50 yds and beyond evolves around the center chank in the bottom of that behemoth lube groove. The nose will not set back the same at each shot, thereby you won't get an equal rotational balance and spin with them.
They work great for what they were intended for, but they weren't particularly designed for highend accurate shooting.

[DarthTater]

As far as accuracy goes, if I can knock over a steel turkey at 100 meters, I'm happy. I get the impression that the Big Lube types will do the job.

As to how far can I shoot the .38-40, 150 yards is tops for me. At that range I probably miss more than I hit. I don't know how far great grandpa shot, but for a well-used 130 year old rifle (and 50 year old eyes), I'm good with that.

[Old-Win]

I'm putting together an 1892 Winchester in 38-40 to shoot in our pistol caliber silhouette matches and was hoping it would work out to 200 yds. Our first match is in July.

[WARD O]

Shooting my Marlin 94 circa 1906 in 38-40 with a 180 cast with 9 grain of Herco I have had 100 yard groups slightly over 2" using a tang sight. The rifle does shoot reasonably well.

I haven't done much work with this rifle and black powder yet but this guy is why I bought the mould. With the big open center, I wondered about the setback changing the boolit enough to hurt accuracy.

Wasn't there a recent thread here about someone shooting 44-40 or 38-40 with black powder and doing great on sillywets without blow tubing or anything?

ward

[w30wcf]

with the Accurate 43-215C. I worked with Accurate on this design which has the nose profile of the original 44-40 bullet which shoots well at close and long distances. The 40-185C is the same design scaled to the 38-40.

They both have the additional lube capacity to run trouble free in a 24" barrel with black powder. I tested prototype bullets that I had made to determine the ideal lube capacity to do the job which resulted in a more balanced bullet.

At 200 yards, the 43-215C produced a 10 shot group of less than 6" with a majority of the rounds inside 4". The test rifle was a Marlin 44-40 Cowboy Ltd with a 4X scope on board.

At 300 meters (327 yards) in good conditions, the 43-215C produced these results
cell phone placed for size comparison


I would expect that the 40-185C should produce similar results once the correct load is found......

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

I've been loading .38-40s for my Colt Lightning rifle, circa 1884 for about a year. I don't shoot it a lot, but enough that I'd rather be casting my own rather than buying them.

The question that I have is which mould to get. It seems that most of them are designed with revolvers in mind. I'm concerned that the resulting boolits aren't going to carry enough lube for the much longer rifle barrel.

I shoot on the 100 yard and 150 yard line. I'd really like to shoot cowboy pistol cartridge silhouettes, but the NRA hasn't seen fit to allow the Lightning to compete...but that's a fight for another day.

Anyway, any suggestions for moulds? I've looked at Big Lube, Accurate and Lyman. I just can't make a decision!

For any black powder, I would suggest the Accurate 40-185C for use in a rifle based on the amount of testing I have done in the 44-40 that I mentioned in the previous thread.

My experience with the "Big Lube" 44-40 bullet is that it is not as accurate as the Accurate 43-215C at 100+ yards giving groups that run at least 50% bigger and more as the distance increases. I would imagine that the same might be true of the 38-40 "Big Lube" but I do not know for sure if that would be the case. The Accurate mold follows the profile of the original 38-40 and 44-40 bullets with the correct lube capacity to make the 24" trip. The "Big Lube" bullets have a larger meplat and the 44-40 bullet, carries a bit more lube than is necessary in my testing. I don't know about the 38-40.

The other advantage in buying a mold from Accurate is that you can specify the bullet diameter that you need and Tom will provide the mold to cast to your dimension. Not so with the others.......

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=40-190C-D.png
will likely be more accurate at longer range but require better quality powder than something like this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=40-185C-D.png
which will allow use of cheap powder without fouling out, but not fly as well.

I'd get both and see which worked better.

Nobade,
Thank you for posting the links. When I developed the 43-215C based on the testing I had done, my goal was to try and equal the downrange accuracy of the original 44-40 two groove bullet and to shoot a minimum of 50 rounds accurately with no barrel "foul out" .

As it turned out, thankfully, the 43-215C lived up to those expectations. The same might just be true of its smaller brother, the 40-185C.

w30wcf