An even smaller bullet shooter ?

[excess650]

nanuk and good cheer,
The type of loading method you are talking about has been done in the past and is attributed to Harry Pope. Many of the old cartridge schuetzen rifles shot at the range at Walnut Hill used this method of loading. A loaded case is inserted in the chamber and then the bullet is ran down the barrel from the muzzle to just sit on top of the case.

While this method of loading was known to produce some quite accurate groups I do not believe that any modern range will allow it for safety reasons. Think about it. You are pushing a bullet down on a loaded and primed case and relying on your rifles safety while leaning over the muzzle.

just my thoughts ... Pete

IIRC, Pope's false muzzle barrels were also supplied with a loading rod, mould and boolit starter. The boolit was pushed through the false muzzle to the length of the loading rod, and because of the change in pitch of the gain twist, the boolit stayed put. A charged case was inserted behind the boolit, and may or may not have had a cork wad over the powder in the end of the case.

Modern schuetzen does away with loading from the muzzle and relies on breech seating the boolit (forcing it into the rifling by mechanical force) and then inserting the charged case behind it.

I owned a square cornered, 44 action Stevens in the 47 pattern with Pope false muzzle barrel with numbered false muzzle and boolit starter. I never had the mould, and the rod was missing, but IIRC, the barrel was marked for the proper length of the rod so that it could be duplicated if lost or broken. Mine was a 38-55.

What you folks are wanting to do can be done without a false muzzle. Insert a cork or vegetable fiber wad in the muzzle and then push a bore sized paper patched or grease groove (will need to be soft) boolit down to just ahead of the leade. Blackpowder will cause the boolit to upset and take the rifling.

Bottleneck case? I suppose that it might work, but something like a 7-08 could be expected to foul terribly, not to mention having a problem cleaning the cases after shooting BP. Pouring a case full of lead and drilling it to bore diameter to the flash hole would make for a small powder chamber, but it might work OK with smokeless.

Turning a Ruger #1 45-70 into a 45-120? No thanks! Try a 500+gr tapered paperpatch boolit just seated into the case over a charge of BP and you'll soon see why. Mine would shoot ragged hole groups at 100 yards when loaded that way, but recoil was brutal.

Oh yeah, Pope wasn't the first, but became a master. I believe that it was Schalk from Pottsville Pa who made the first false muzzled breech loader, and possibly a on Ballard at that.

[skullmount]

Hey guys, I was looking for input on what Loverin style moulds might work for the barrels listed.
I need help as I have not cast anything smaller than the .350.
Thanks, sm

[skullmount]

What you folks are wanting to do can be done without a false muzzle. Insert a cork or vegetable fiber wad in the muzzle and then push a bore sized paper patched or grease groove (will need to be soft) boolit down to just ahead of the leade. Blackpowder will cause the boolit to upset and take the rifling.

"obturate"
The White muzzleloaders are loaded in the manner you describe. Some do better with a felt wad between the powder and the bullet. Some are real finicky about the sizeing others are not. The lighter bullets need to be sized more closely.

Do any of you shoot a White?

[Nobade]

I think what is happening here is that what Skullmount (and I) are doing is outside the norm when people think about muzzleloading firearms. For those who have tried it, bullet firing long range muzzleloaders work extremely well, and have performance far beyond what roundball guns are capable of. But other than the Ped. Gibbs and Euroarms Volunteer rifles, there aren't any examples of this type of rifle currently on the market. Plenty of inlines can be made to work very well with long conical bullets, but most people who own them use plastic sabots and pistol bullets. Not because they work better, but rather because that is what they are sold.

Smaller caliber bullet firing rifles (and handguns) do work and work well. Both Skullmount and I have 35 caliber (.350 bore) bullet firing muzzle loading rifles, and they are fully the equal in power, accuracy, and range to a 38-55 cartridge rifle. (280 grains at 1400 fps) I see absolutely no reason why a 30 or 32 caliber rifle of the same type wouldn't work, and soon will likely build one myself to play with. Keep in mind this is not a 32 caliber Cherokee. It will be firing a 165-200 grain lead bullet at 1200-1400 fps. Not a 40 grain round ball at 2000 fps. This is the reason for the faster twist rates.

These rifles are normally loaded with lubricated lead bullets .0005 to .001 under bore size, or paper patched lead bullets the same size and black powder. When fired, the bullets slug up and seal the bore. They are accurate and do not lead.

Now that we (hopefully) all understand what we are talking about, let's have some productive discussion, shall we?

[excess650]

Nobade,
It appears that you have the answer. A boolit (GG or PP) that can be loaded with little or no resistance from the muzzle in a weight compaitble with the rifling twist. Of the calibers listed by the OP, the 32Spl or 32-40 will work better than the 32-20 due to the fact that either should shoot up to about a 200gr boolit. I had an original highwall in 32-40 with salt-n-pepper bore. When loaded with a tapered GG boolit of about 200gr (seated well out) over a charge of BP, the holes in a target were oval at 100 yards, but it could be expected to knock down turkey silhouettes at 385m. This tells me the 1-16" twist was marginal for stability and the boolit had considerable yaw at 100 yards. Apparently it "went to sleep" and shot point on at longer distances.

To my way of thinking something in the 185gr range that casts near your bore diameter, or can be minimally sized to your bore diameter (or patched UP to it) is where I would look. This may or may not require a custom mould, but that isn't a big deal these days. For an "off the shelf" approach, try a 30cal like the 311407 or 311467 and size it down to be patched.

[Redleaf]

Skullmount, you need to search all the standard barrel manufacturers' offerings in that range to determine their bore dimensions, then just search available bullet moulds in the same range til you find something that will work. WHats the bore size for a .32 barrel (A BULLET BARREL, NOT A ROUNDBALL BARREL?) when you start looking for a bullet, dont forget about patching one vs using a greaser. Patching typically will increase the bullet diameter by .007" to .012". You ought to be able to find something in that range that will suit your needs. Do you have any particular use in mind for this gun other than curiosity?

[waksupi]

This may be of assistance. Look through the links on the page.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/index.htm

http://inforumer.com/Top/Recreation/...istory/050641/

[skullmount]

Nobade,
It appears that you have the answer. A boolit (GG or PP) that can be loaded with little or no resistance from the muzzle in a weight compaitble with the rifling twist. Of the calibers listed by the OP, the 32Spl or 32-40 will work better than the 32-20 due to the fact that either should shoot up to about a 200gr boolit. I had an original highwall in 32-40 with salt-n-pepper bore. When loaded with a tapered GG boolit of about 200gr (seated well out) over a charge of BP, the holes in a target were oval at 100 yards, but it could be expected to knock down turkey silhouettes at 385m. This tells me the 1-16" twist was marginal for stability and the boolit had considerable yaw at 100 yards. Apparently it "went to sleep" and shot point on at longer distances.

To my way of thinking something in the 185gr range that casts near your bore diameter, or can be minimally sized to your bore diameter (or patched UP to it) is where I would look. This may or may not require a custom mould, but that isn't a big deal these days. For an "off the shelf" approach, try a 30cal like the 311407 or 311467 and size it down to be patched.

I'll look into those moulds you listed ! Thanks

Skullmount, you need to search all the standard barrel manufacturers' offerings in that range to determine their bore dimensions, then just search available bullet moulds in the same range til you find something that will work. WHats the bore size for a .32 barrel (A BULLET BARREL, NOT A ROUNDBALL BARREL?) when you start looking for a bullet, dont forget about patching one vs using a greaser. Patching typically will increase the bullet diameter by .007" to .012". You ought to be able to find something in that range that will suit your needs. Do you have any particular use in mind for this gun other than curiosity?

Redleaf,

The barrels I have narrowed it down to, I think, what I listed.

As far as patching goes, nobade has kept that in front of me as we have shared on the .350's. Maybe skipe could help him to tutor me

My limited exposure to smaller bullets leads me to again ask the question about the Loverin style bullets/moulds and what else is out there that could be sized to work?

Other than punching paper, I would consider hunting whitetail here in Michigan, as a number of years ago, the minimum caliber restriction was dropped from the regs. as far as ml long guns goes.

[skullmount]

This may be of assistance. Look through the links on the page.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/index.htm

http://inforumer.com/Top/Recreation/...istory/050641/

Thanks Ric,

I have been to a number of those sites, but there are more that I have not seen.
I'll do more reading later today.......on the way to Hillsdale College to bring the "baby" home for CHRISTmas break.

[Redleaf]

You've already used the .35 cals, so a 32 or a 30 mould is going to do the same thing. 1. Pick a barrel, 2, pick a bullet, 3, get to work. You aint going to find an instruction manual for this. You're going to write it. It will work though, you already know that. To answer one of your questions, or rather to inject another "opinion" I dont belive the twist rate is going to have any bearing on fouling. And as one of the other guys posted, the answers to all your questions and more will be found on the slug gun range at Friendship. THose guns are fully capable of 2moa out to 600yds.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer,
Ha! OK, I'll bite ...... What is the difference? A safety is a mechanical device that can fail. A loaded gun is a loaded gun, enter the human factor and the potential for an accident I would think would be the same for either rifle.

Pete

I was thinking about being able to close the H&R action after loading. It would be easier to finagle than with my No.3. Also the exposed hammer of the H&R could be blocked.
Muzzle loading the 45 Colt H&R should be real easy because of the short length. Probably be about like shooting one of the carbines from the 1860's.

[scrapcan]

451 Pete,

Thanks for the explanation. I had been trying to figure out in my own mind the differences from what I was reading.

To all, I would like to say thanks for offering the info you have it is making for good reading, more learning, and formulation of new projects.

[excess650]

I'm going to suggest (WARN) that if you are planning to do this(muzzle load) with cartridge rifles that you seat the bullet to a specified depth FIRST, and then insert your charged case behind the boolit.

With a tapered boolit, or two diameter boolit, patched or GG, it can be loaded from the breech as fixed ammunition.

The difference between doing this with a trued MLer and a cartridge rifle is that the primer or cap is the last item added with a MLer. Using a primed, charged case and loading the boolit from the muzzle is just begging for trouble.

Do what you want, I'm done preaching.

[Good Cheer]

By the way, probably repeating myself but my .458 bore rifle is a TC New Englander with the 26" barrel sleeved by Bobby Hoyt. In essence it's just a single shot 45-70 that doesn't use brass.
This shows a little gas cutting from not using enough wad under the gas check base.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/y...iredBullet.jpg

http://s791.photobucket.com/albums/y...hthebullet.mp4

My other boolit rifle is a Lyman GPR with a fast twist .40 caliber barrel by Ed Rayl.

[451 Pete]

Nobade and Skullmount,
After reading what was posted last night and this a.m. now I can see what you are trying to accomplish. I was thinking from the early posts what you were trying to make was something more along the lines of re- creating a particular style of a traditional rifle from the past.

I might have a cheap and easy way out for you. Something that I have thought of doing is making a long range muzzle loading rifle by using a .45 cal. black powder cartridge bullet barrel from Green Mountain on a used TC Renegade with a junk barrel. This would allow you to use all of the TC parts except the original barrel as both the Renegade and the GM barrel are 1 inch across the flats. GM also makes BPC barrels for .38 and .32 with the same 1 inch across the flat dim. so I see no reason why the same could not be done using the smaller cal. barrels.

My choice of the Renegade to build this on is mainly because of these rifles having the flat shotgun butt style of stock which would be a bit better suited for heavy recoil ( in a .45 with it's 500 + grain bullets). Also everything is set up for a 1 inch barrel and this rifle has a patent breech which is a lot stronger than a drum and nipple set up for any bullet gun.

BTW the GM barrel for the 32-40 is set up with a 1 -14 twist. I would either use paper patch or go to a custom mold as the small bullet molds for modern cartridges do not hold very much lube.

Pete

[skullmount]

I'm going to suggest (WARN) that if you are planning to do this(muzzle load) with cartridge rifles that you seat the bullet to a specified depth FIRST, and then insert your charged case behind the boolit.

With a tapered boolit, or two diameter boolit, patched or GG, it can be loaded from the breech as fixed ammunition.

The difference between doing this with a trued MLer and a cartridge rifle is that the primer or cap is the last item added with a MLer. Using a primed, charged case and loading the boolit from the muzzle is just begging for trouble.

Do what you want, I'm done preaching.

That was not the idea, I have read about that being done. I have no intrest.

As far as cost goes, a barrel liner slid into another like this; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e+barrel+liner

is an option / direction that is tugging really hard on me.
I have a swing block Rem. Genesis with a marginal barrel that would work as a donor. I would look at modification of the breechplug to accept a 32 sp or 25 acp for a primer.

I really need to spend some more time with the bullet/mould stuff and find something that will cast out at or just above the bore size. (in pure lead)

[skullmount]

Been bullet searching.

Anyone cast this one in almost pure lead ?? Wondering about shrinkage
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...t=lyman+311407

[skullmount]

Hope this brings a to you guys as it did me.

I e-mailed a friend, one that built my first .350 ml with the fast twist the following;


Larry,
Do you have any moulds that throw a bullet in the .315 to .320
diameter area that weigh over 170 grains and are plain or Loverin
style base..and throw in a partridge in a pear tree too ...
Man there are so many bullets in that .310 to .325 area it makes my head spin
I like the looks of the Lyman 311407

Carl

And his response;

I dont have anything much in that range. I've got a .338 Lee and a Lyman that throws a .311 of about 160or 170 grains in #2 alloy. You need to give paper patching a try. As soon as I get time, I'm going to get back at that with the underhammer gun that I put a .40 cal
1:16 twist barrel on. I've got a pp mould that is adjustable from about .9" up to 1.5" that throws a .392" bullet. With 25# paper, it patches up to .3995 or .400 depending on how tight you wrap the patch.
I'm tellin ya Carl, the .40's are where its at. Skads of moulds,
and standard barrels from every manufacturer. You're like a salmon,
swimming upstream with those little pipsqueek guns. Go on and build yourself a sub-caliber .14 muzzleloader and be done with it. Then you
can rejoin the practical/sensible world.
Larry

[Underclocked]

Since I know both of you - I have to agree with Larry and the smile.

[Nobade]

Haha - Sounds like Larry has been here and already done it, huh? I'm with Skullmount still though, I want to see what a 32 caliber bullet firing rifle will do. I also have a rusted bore TC Patriot that might be interesting to reline to something smaller. (Have to do a bit of sleeving on the breechplug on that one to make it work but that shouldn't be hard.)

And yeah, that #311407 looks like it would work quite nicely. Especially if the gascheck shank were opened up.