Paper patched bullets in magazine rifles?

[Naphtali]

Several years ago I read Paul Matthews' The Paper Jacket. I think I recall him writing that paper patched cartridges do not feed efficiently from tubular feed lever actions or conventional stagger box magazines, and, therefore, should be avoided.

I just acquired a side lever safety Savage 99 action with rotary magazine intended for 243/308/358 Winchester cartridge class. By way of this unusual rotary magazine, will paper patched cartridges 308 or 358 Winchester cartridges feed reliably and uneventfully? Or is the magazine feed problem one that cannot be overcome?

[longbow]

I don't do a lot of PP boolit shooting but so far have had no problems with feeding from a Mauser magazine, .303 Lee Enfield magazine or .44 Marlin tube magazine.

I guess the way to find out is to give it a try. Can't hurt! The worst thing that will happen is you might wrinkle or tear the paper and get poor accuracy or not get a round to chamber.

Longbow

[1874Sharps]

It has been a several years since I read Matthew's book that you cite, but if I remember correctly he states it can be done as long as the paper patch is protected from the load gate, mechanism, ramp, etc. Many folks have loaded for magazine rifles as Longbow has done.

[rob45]

An excerpt from The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews, pp. 114-115

Quote:"Now over the years I've been led to believe that paper patched bullets didn't function too well in the lever action repeating rifles because of the patch's vulnerability during its journey through the loading gate and feeding mechanism. Where I got this notion, I don't remember, but it is wrong. Loaded properly, the paper patched bullet will feed and function just as well in a lever action rifle as in a single shot.

There are two ways to protect the patch for use in a lever action rifle. First, waterproof the patch as described in Chapter 9. The beeswax and graphite on the patch do a lot toward promoting durability. Second, and even better than the waterproofing, is to regulate the width of the patch so that when the bullet is seated to provide the required overall length of the cartridge, the entire patch is enclosed within the cartridge case. I have used both of these methods in the new Marlin 1895SS and although I much prefer the latter method, either way will work fine.":end quote



So his preferred solution was to make the patch be covered inside the case when the bullet was seated; i.e., patch behind the crimp groove instead of out on the ogive.
Is that the type of information you were looking for?

[HollowPoint]

Only just this past Weekend I loaded and fired my very first batch of paper patch bullets out of my Model 92 lever action and SBH revolver.

I wasn't quite sure if it would work but they seemed to feed and fire just fine out of the M92's tubular magazine. They were 240 grain round nose.

I just had to be careful when I inserted each round through my loading gate. That's the only place where I could see that any damage might occur to the paper patching itself.

HollowPoint

[giz189]

I have been shooting ppb in a Marlin CB 45-70 with no problems. Just made sure the patch did not ride much above the end of the case and put a light taper crimp on it and chamfer inside of mouth good. I am loading some .358 Win to shoot in a Savage 99. Have run them thru the action with no problems. Haven't actually fired any yet.

[303Guy]

I am loading some .358 Win to shoot in a Savage 99.

Now that's the answer Naphtali asked for! I've cycled patched rounds through my Lee Enfield magazine with no problems. The Lee Enfield patched rounds protrude kinda far out the case mouth! (245gr and 208gr). I've found dry wrapped patches to be more robust than wet wrapped patches.

[Southern Son]

The only PPBoolits I have fired, I fired through my Brno .458WinMag. It is a Mauser action and has to be fed through the magazine. No problems (I did not put anything on the paper, either).

[rhead]

My Rossi 357 does just fine with PP, My Winchester 44 mag does just fine, My marlin 95 45 70 does very well My Turk Mauser does fine with them. My marlin 30 30 does not do well with PP boolits. Probably a variation of gun to gun. The only way to tell is to try some in your own firearm.

[pdawg_shooter]

I use paper patches in 2 lever, and 4 bolt actions. No problem.

[Naphtali]

Okay, it's worth trying. Between 308 and 358 Winchester cartridges - I'm starting from a naked action I can do what I want - which would be more likely to function reliably with paper patched ammunition?

If I can achieve my goal - to create a reliably penetrating and expanding accurate paper patch load satisfactory for elk to 175 yards - I suspect the bullet need be near the top of the cartridge's weight range - 180-200 grains if 308 and 225-250 grains if 358? Before this query, I had intended to use bulk 180-grain JSP for fun and deer, and similarly shaped 180-grain premium bullets for elk. But I do not shoot jacketed bullets in any other firearm, so why start now?

Recommendations for: [which] cartridge; bullet molds; powder (now I use only Hodgdon's TiteGroup, H110, H322, and IMR 3031); brass (some have said the best brass is US military surplus/once fired); preferred type of rifling (I must acquire a barrel); and any other information or tricks or quirks I should be aware of.

This is not going to be a quick-and-dirty assembly. A great deal of the pleasure is slowly watching the rifle come together the way it's supposed to.

[pdawg_shooter]

I use only heave for caliber bullets, and I use a powder that gives me as near as possible to 100% load density. With the proper alloy for the velocity a paper patched bullet will be just as accurate as a jacketed one.

[rhead]

Okay, it's worth trying. Between 308 and 358 Winchester cartridges - I'm starting from a naked action I can do what I want - which would be more likely to function reliably with paper patched ammunition?

If I can achieve my goal - to create a reliably penetrating and expanding accurate paper patch load satisfactory for elk to 175 yards - I suspect the bullet need be near the top of the cartridge's weight range - 180-200 grains if 308 and 225-250 grains if 358? Before this query, I had intended to use bulk 180-grain JSP for fun and deer, and similarly shaped 180-grain premium bullets for elk. But I do not shoot jacketed bullets in any other firearm, so why start now?

Recommendations for: [which] cartridge; bullet molds; powder (now I use only Hodgdon's TiteGroup, H110, H322, and IMR 3031); brass (some have said the best brass is US military surplus/once fired); preferred type of rifling (I must acquire a barrel); and any other information or tricks or quirks I should be aware of.

This is not going to be a quick-and-dirty assembly. A great deal of the pleasure is slowly watching the rifle come together the way it's supposed to.

In my experience the .358 is easier to learn on. If you will be using the ciggarette roller the .308 will fit it without alteration. Some tinkering will be needed to get it to fit on the .358. From the physics of the bullet feeding. I have no way of knowing but would expect both to work.

[mashaffer]

I hope you don't mind this newbie resurrecting an old post. I ran across this forum while searching for information on using paper patched bullets in cartridge revolvers. So HollowPoint I am naturally curious as to how you SBH experiments went if you would like to expound on that I would be grateful. My concern would be whether a paper patched bullet would be able to traverse the the cylinder gap and forcing cone intact yet still reliably fall away after leaving the muzzle.

Thanks.

mike

Only just this past Weekend I loaded and fired my very first batch of paper patch bullets out of my Model 92 lever action and SBH revolver.

I wasn't quite sure if it would work but they seemed to feed and fire just fine out of the M92's tubular magazine. They were 240 grain round nose.

I just had to be careful when I inserted each round through my loading gate. That's the only place where I could see that any damage might occur to the paper patching itself.

HollowPoint

[pdawg_shooter]

I hope you don't mind this newbie resurrecting an old post. I ran across this forum while searching for information on using paper patched bullets in cartridge revolvers. So HollowPoint I am naturally curious as to how you SBH experiments went if you would like to expound on that I would be grateful. My concern would be whether a paper patched bullet would be able to traverse the the cylinder gap and forcing cone intact yet still reliably fall away after leaving the muzzle.

Thanks.

mike

I have used paper patched bullets in revolvers a number of times, and it works fine. BUT, there is no advantage to patching at handgun velocities. Lube cast will handle anything a revolver can put out.

[grullaguy]

The lips on my Enfield magazine damages paper patched bullets quite effectively. I have resorted to using it as a single shot and have not taken the magazine out to the range for many months.

No problems with my Ruger #1.

[303Guy]

Welcome aboard mashaffer.
It's the fun factor! The benefit is the satisfaction.

grullaguy, might I suggest trying that magazine with the insides removed? It makes a brilliant spent case catcher if you open the bolt slowly. More value for single shot use in the field really but it is handy on the bench too. Lee Enfield's actually do make quite handy single shot bolt actions.

[trench]

Interesting. I intend to create a cap and ball revolving rifle, with 30-30 type velocities/performance, using Triple 7 Hodgdon Black powder substitute. 3" diameter cyclinder, 16 shots, using paper patched bullets.

[CJR]

During the end of this summer's PP testing, I concentrated on improving my large round groups sizes as well as insuring that chambering/ejecting unfired PPCB rounds (without de-bulleting) would work for hunting. PPCB stuck in the chamber, while hunting, are not good. Well so far into the hunting season, I've been chambering/ejecting the same PPCB round into my Mauser and they are working fine- just like jacketed rounds. No problems whatsoever. Now if the deer would only cooperate!

Best regards,

CJR

[Nobade]

Interesting. I intend to create a cap and ball revolving rifle, with 30-30 type velocities/performance, using Triple 7 Hodgdon Black powder substitute. 3" diameter cyclinder, 16 shots, using paper patched bullets.

Now THAT I look forward to seeing!