Hmmm. . .Would this expanding characteristic make it a useful lube component? Expansion of the silicone under sudden heat/pressure maybe pushing our other lube ingredients more forcefully out of the lube grooves, making for a stronger gasket effect?Originally Posted by geargnasher
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Maybe. Lube purging would have to be controlled. The tell-tale sign would be group increasing on a per shot basis, assuming no viscosity change per shot causing the problem. Look for the slightest keyhole increase per shot too, as that would be the lube getting slicker per shot. Absolutely no wind allowed during the string which would cause the boolit axis angle to change for compensation, confusing the matter. ... felix
Last edited by felix; 07-27-2013 at 11:43 AM.
felix
Silicone oils have very low film strength and are fundamentally unsuitable for metal-to-metal lubrication by themselves. In commercial lubricating greases, silicone oils tend to act only as inert vehicles for the transportation of lubricant additives. In some cases, the thickener (such as aluminum salt compounds, zinc oxide, organometallic zinc, zinc or antimony salts, or even talc) serves more as a "lubricant" than does the silicone base oil.
Here's the short version of bringing the Lube Quest up to date:
We've found that metal salt thickeners don't pump well in the cold and have erratic bleed characteristics dependant upon temperature. They also tend to de-oil under extreme pressure and shock loading and get dumped behind in the first half of the barrel, accumulating and disrupting accuracy. The de-oil point for sodium is around 20-22K psi based on three different people's testing. Add wax to the sodium/oil mix and the dump point is increased to mid-30K psi, still not good enough. Lithium salts are less prone to dump oil under pressure with certain "polar" oils, but the lack of pumpability in the cold, excessive bleed in the heat, and thixotropic tendencies make it unsuitable for extremely heavy-duty boolit lube. Calcium-based thickeners and polyureas have their own issues, mostly related to pressure de-oiling.
Solids fillers such as wood flour, graphite, talc, and bentone also de-oil and get left behind in the bore.
Calcium sulfonate, moly disulfide, and hexagonal boron nitride still show some promise due to strong bonds with certain polar oils, and may prove essential as friction modifiers to control the slickness of the synthetic base oils.
Waxes can work very well IF paired with like oils (microwax and napthenic lube oil, paraffin wax and paraffin oils, beeswax and oils based on fatty acic/alcohol esters) because lubes made with such become the sum of their parts and do not easily break apart into their constituents under extreme heat, pressure, or cold. The problem with wax/oil lubes is that they are generally temperature sensitive and don't always print the first shot from a cold barrel in the group. Wax and oil lubes also melt easily and run out of loaded ammo in warmer climates.
Several people are working on a concept similar to Runfiverun's moly complex concept, that is blending several different types of waxes, several types of base oils, and several different metal salt thickeners in an effort to balance out the shortcomings of each individual ingredient. Proportions are being developed based on results and initial testing is positive.
I'm still looking for the "magic bullet" here, though. Something way out of the "box", simple, and effective without a ton of modifiers and stop-gap measures. One thing is clear through all of this, we need a GREASE. that means a thickened oil. Lubes have been made that go liquid instantly under pressure, others the go liquid in stages, and still others that NEVER go liquid, and they all work. So I quit worrying about that part. We just need a putty-like substance with some EP film properties that is temperature insensitive. We have two approaches left to try as far as I can tell: Polyglycols and Polyethylenes. I think I've finally discovered the way to approach polyethylene in lube.
Gear
Last edited by geargnasher; 07-28-2013 at 01:51 PM.
That sums it up quite well. Took well over a year and untold batches of lube to get that far.
The quest isn't over but we know many, many things now that we didn't know before.
Thanks for a quick, complete summation Gear.
Cheers, Brad.
I learned something else today, HDPE and 450 SuS ester oil makes for a fine NLGI "0" or so grease, but that's as much as it will thicken and still be usable. The stuff would be outstanding if we would make it with about 15% HDPE and could cast it into the lube grooves. AG and HDPE has the same issue, but at 5% HDPE by weight the AG is much more slick and has a better film strength. Add wax to either and it makes a crumbly mess. This is going to take a lot more resources than any of us here have to pull off if we want a polyethylene grease that's thicker than pancake syrup.
What was that other thing? Oh yeah, the late-night flaming mess.......two years and I'm back to that. Oh Lamaaaaaaaarrrrrr????!!!!
Gear
Ummm, I ain't messing with that stuff. A lat night flaming mess could lead to divorce in my home. My wife tolerates many things, that wouldn't be one of them!
Weird that the wax makes the HDPE additive stuff go to a crumbly mess. That is how this seems to play out. Mix a few things together and end up with a goofy mess.
I hadn't really thought about your comments on like with like. That might be why the beeswax lubes get soft and sticky with ester oil. Hadn't really given the commonality of the chemical structure a thought. Interesting.
You must wait until you have a weekend where SWMBO goes away and then make a lifetime supply-or there is always byte the boolit and go with White Label.
Oh, she has let me make many, many batches of lube on the stove. ATF cooking with soap got me kicked out to the patio with my hot plate for lube making.
Until you have experienced it you just don't know what 450 degree ATF smells like. Not a good thing. Boiling cat pee might be better smelling. Might.
I am fortunate to have a very understanding wife. That understanding might fall apart at the sight of flames. Ask Lamar, he knows. Something about 3 am and a flaming batch of lube and snow on the ground. I am sure there is more to the story than we know......
Nothing like the smell of burned ATF to a Transmission Guy's nostrils=Money will soon come to you! The latest transmission fluid reminds me of "odors from the backhouse" at my Grandma's place.
Has anyone tried food grade grease as a component? It's the wide temperature range that caught my attention.I have a tube of the stuff (can't identify the brand or type as bugs have eaten most of the label - so even the label is food grade!?) and decided to try mixing it with beeswax. It has a high melting point but not that high that the beeswax smokes or anything, just takes some time and stirring to dissolve. A 50/50 mix is pasty enough to use in a lubri-sizer but sets 'hard'.Grease is pure, non-toxic, rust & corrosion resistant, resistant to equipment wash downs, protects against food-related acids & has temperature range from 10 degrees F to 470 degrees F. .... applications including grease lubricated machinery & equipment, anti-friction bearings, slides, gears & guides ....
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Quite a interesting subject... needs a lot of time/testing for anyone that time on his/her schudle
Slow Elk 45/70
Praise the Lord & Pass the Ammo
that smoking mess was polyglycol.
airc the magic temp was 450-f.
it cakes and dries them poof.
i'm fairly sure it locked in the oils and didn't just drop them out.
i'm pretty sure it's the same principle we have been seeing under pressure with the sodium layering.
it just takes that much heat/pressure and bam the lube goes to cake stage and we get the half barrel layer thing.
if we could prevent the caking effect we could push things to the muzzle then work on seeing if it purged or not.
the Li addition seems [so far] to combat the sodium lock up.
now if there is an anti-caking agent we could sprinkle in???
i'm thinking this based on what else could be happening, where the stearate just dumps all its oils.
that would push the excess to the muzzle and blow out the groups at the same time.
that is kind of what we were seeing with some of the SL lubes where the groups would go from outstanding to sucky then back again [even better] then blow up again.
Lamar and Ian long time. Did I ever send you any OCP polymer used in motor oils? would melt into wax I think keeps oils thin when cold and thick when hot more or less. Used at 1-3% in MG motor oils, melta in at 200-300F depending on base fluid type.
Im address again if you want some, comes as off white rubbery "crumbs"
bruce
I know this probably sounds stupid, but I'm not educated enough to know anything about graphite or its properties. Has anyone ever attempted mixing powdered graphite into a lube where it would be "consistent" with the lube (without gumming it up or making it all gridy)? A friend the other day suggest to stop using sprue plate oils for my sprue plate and take out the sprue plate screw and cover it with powdered graphite (it obviously won't stick to the alignment pins), so far I've had AWESOME luck because temperature doesn't affect it and I'm not yet sure if I even need to add any more (or how often if I do have to). That's about when I had a crazy thought with the graphite idea. How would it affect the barrel, how would it mix into a lube, etc. Has anyone ever experimented trying to add it to a lube? I haven't found any old posts on it yet.
-Steve
Last edited by Steven; 08-08-2013 at 02:05 AM.
Not boolit lube exspert but graphite and moly have been added for years to boolit lubes i do not know if good or bad.
Yep, both will destroy clothes in no time flat. Reason enough not to include them. Too many other materials to choose from which perform the same function. One is motor mica and might be used for the worst case scenario, like for revolters way out of tune. ... felix
felix
there has been some picking and poking at HBN lately.
also the size of the additives seems to have a lot of bearing on how much is transferred elsewhere.
the micron thick stuff lyman uses gets everywhere, the larger diameter moly doesn't seem to transfer the black all over the place.
I used a fair bit of Midway's moly powder in a batch and it left ZERO black on my hands or anything else it touched. Sadly the lube didn't work as well as I hoped.
I thi I the dry, powdered ingredients need to be kept to low levels, too much leads to a dry lube that doesn't flow well. Maybe an initially wetter lube could benefit from some dry stuff?
As i recall, the NRA tested graphite in the 1960s and it eliminated both leading and accuracy.
Others' experiences in, what? the 1990s with moly disulfide leas me to wonder if the particle size is/was a critical factor.
That said, I'm with those who have little or no interest in stuff that pencils up our fingers and everything else the bullets touch. Still working through a batch of moly bullets i bought maybe 10 years ago.
on the other hand, if those promising cold-weather mixes that are stiff enough hot could lose their lube purge fliers by dumping some/all of the oil(s) for graphite or HBn, I would consider that acceptable enough. Enough stories about moly corrosion AND buildup for me to not want that one.
Grump, I doubt the moly in a lube will be deposited or layered on the bore. With a dry lube and a dry bore maybe, with grease and wax around, nope.
The dry ingredients don't, in my opinion, so much lubricate as much as they thicken and dry the lube. Make a lube that is too wet or that tends to lube purge and the addition of a small amount of dry ingredients can help. Maybe.
I haven't messed with these things enough to really know but I have real mixed opinions on them. I will say that they must be kept to a low level. Get over 5 percent and I think they will interfere with the ability of the lube to flow properly.
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