Other calibers for No.4 Enfield?

[303Guy]

If I had his rifle I would fire-lap it then see how it shoots. Being me, I would try paper patching or cast with appropriate sized boolits. Being a No4, and if I had some spare cash I would look at a 25-303 or 6mm Musgrave (6mm-303) re-barrel. Playing around with rust damaged or worn bores is not going to be everyones cup of tee. Having a 25-303 on a SMLE action I would definately prefer such a cartridge on a No.4 action. It would be my preference over a 6mm-303. A 22-303 would get my attention. It's a rimmed 220 Swift! (But would have to operated at starting loads as max for the No.4).

[Four Fingers of Death]

If I had his rifle I would fire-lap it then see how it shoots. Being me, I would try paper patching or cast with appropriate sized boolits. Being a No4, and if I had some spare cash I would look at a 25-303 or 6mm Musgrave (6mm-303) re-barrel. Playing around with rust damaged or worn bores is not going to be everyones cup of tee. Having a 25-303 on a SMLE action I would definately prefer such a cartridge on a No.4 action. It would be my preference over a 6mm-303. A 22-303 would get my attention. It's a rimmed 220 Swift! (But would have to operated at starting loads as max for the No.4).

The 303/25 was the only really successful 303 wildcat here. When I was a young un' SMLEs were all that was available pretty much.

I spoke to my friend who is a gunsmith that I use a bit. He has a 303Epps reamer. I will have to convert one of my rifles to this to see how it goes. The trouble is, which one???? I have an iron sighted SMLE sporter, a SMLE sporter with a scope and a mint BSA No4 Factory Sporter. Decisions, decisions. The P14 I have is a very original one, that is out.

Dies are a bit of a mystery, been drawing a blank there on the net.

[scrapcan]

Mick,

I responded to your other thread on dies for the Epps. I don't have any but listed a few places that have then in their listings. CH will likely be the cheapest and you might check out BTSniper's thread on discount to cast boolit members.

Jansa also lists them in their dies series 7 for 7/8 presses. A bit pricey though.

[Multigunner]

The 303/25 was the only really successful 303 wildcat here. When I was a young un' SMLEs were all that was available pretty much.

I spoke to my friend who is a gunsmith that I use a bit. He has a 303Epps reamer. I will have to convert one of my rifles to this to see how it goes. The trouble is, which one???? I have an iron sighted SMLE sporter, a SMLE sporter with a scope and a mint BSA No4 Factory Sporter. Decisions, decisions. The P14 I have is a very original one, that is out.

Dies are a bit of a mystery, been drawing a blank there on the net.

I wouldn't think of rechambering an original BSA No.4 actioned sporting rifle. I have on several occasions run across original barrels for BSA and Parker Hale sporters offered for sale as new old stock.
I didn't think to save links, which would be years out of date by this time any way, but IIRC these were offered on an Australian or New Zealand gun auction site.

As for dies, it was fairly common in the old days for problems to crop up when rechambering for wildcats and then buying resizing dies from another source.
Chambering reamers from one source, especial if used and re ground by a gunsmith didn't always match up well with full length resizing dies from another source.

For the various wildcats based on the .303 case I would think neck sizing only would be the way to go.

If desiring ease of chambering cartridges with reformed cases neck sized only you might try a trick a friend uses with his No.5 Carbine.
After I obtained a #3 bolthead for him when I ordered mine (back then they were still to be found and dirt cheap) He took to using the #3 bolthead for target shooting and load development, then switching out to a #2 bolthead when using the Carbine for hunting.
Of course any case fired with the #2 bolthead must then be full length resized for later use with the #3 bolthead.

I get around the tight fit of neck sized cases by using each fired case as a snapper cap, the impact of the firing pin is enough to drive the case into the chamber far enough to micro size it for ease of chambering.
Helped with developing good trigger control as well.

For other bore diameter cartridges on could try the method once used by Australian gunsmiths, cutting off the barrel stub and boring it out then fitting a turned barrel blank or cut off barrel to the stub.
A commercial coversion of the Carcano rifle to 7.62 NATO used this method as well, and it seems that these hold up okay. I'd not recommend hot loads in such a two piece barrel though.
The British experimented with this sort of two piece barrel during WW2, they found these didn't hold up well enough for combat conditions.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I wouldn't think of rechambering an original BSA No.4 actioned sporting rifle. I have on several occasions run across original barrels for BSA and Parker Hale sporters offered for sale as new old stock.
I didn't think to save links, which would be years out of date by this time any way, but IIRC these were offered on an Australian or New Zealand gun auction site.

As for dies, it was fairly common in the old days for problems to crop up when rechambering for wildcats and then buying resizing dies from another source.
Chambering reamers from one source, especial if used and re ground by a gunsmith didn't always match up well with full length resizing dies from another source.

For the various wildcats based on the .303 case I would think neck sizing only would be the way to go.

If desiring ease of chambering cartridges with reformed cases neck sized only you might try a trick a friend uses with his No.5 Carbine.
After I obtained a #3 bolthead for him when I ordered mine (back then they were still to be found and dirt cheap) He took to using the #3 bolthead for target shooting and load development, then switching out to a #2 bolthead when using the Carbine for hunting.
Of course any case fired with the #2 bolthead must then be full length resized for later use with the #3 bolthead.

I get around the tight fit of neck sized cases by using each fired case as a snapper cap, the impact of the firing pin is enough to drive the case into the chamber far enough to micro size it for ease of chambering.
Helped with developing good trigger control as well.

For other bore diameter cartridges on could try the method once used by Australian gunsmiths, cutting off the barrel stub and boring it out then fitting a turned barrel blank or cut off barrel to the stub.
A commercial coversion of the Carcano rifle to 7.62 NATO used this method as well, and it seems that these hold up okay. I'd not recommend hot loads in such a two piece barrel though.
The British experimented with this sort of two piece barrel during WW2, they found these didn't hold up well enough for combat conditions.

I agree with you, the BSA No4 Sporter is probably best left alone, worth a bit in the (well, it's )original configuration, but just another bubba if interfered with.

I spoke to Jansa Arms about the dies, I know him pretty well, he said that he sells a few sets of Simplex dies in 303 Epps every year and has never had any negative feedback. Simplex also sells neck sizing dies.

I have had a couple of M17s with what we call 'sleeved barrels. The were fitted with used barrels from other rifles and the original barrel stub drilled and threaded for it. One was an Remington 7mm Mag which went ok, but I suppose for combat conditions, the saving would have been minimal and not worth it. OK for us cheapskates trying to use a discarded barrel rather than buying a new one.

I have friends who shoot military rifle, a few of them make a body die using a sawn off Lee FLS die, cheaper than a Redding, lol

[Multigunner]

I have had a couple of M17s with what we call 'sleeved barrels. The were fitted with used barrels from other rifles and the original barrel stub drilled and threaded for it. One was an Remington 7mm Mag which went ok, but I suppose for combat conditions, the saving would have been minimal and not worth it. OK for us cheapskates trying to use a discarded barrel rather than buying a new one.

I wish I had known about barrel sleeving before I traded off a otherwise good condition Krag Carbine many years ago. The Carbine had the worst rotted out bore I've yet seen, many years in a closet with corrosive primer salts trapped under a thick layer of cupronickel fouling really did a job on it.
When I tried to push a bronze brush though it most of the bristles came off. The cupronickel in the grooves had broken loose in strips as the steel rusted away under it. There were pits you could lose a coon hound in.
The action was perfect, and bluing was close to 90%, stock was in great shape as well.
I couldn't find any gunsmiths willing to do a rebarrel for this carbine. They said they couldn't cut that type of thread. Few gunsmiths anywhere near here had much in the way of barrel making equipment.
Years later replica replacement barrels became available. Wish I had just hung that Krag on the wall till then.
I had very little in that Krag and by prices of the day I got over like a big dog in the trade, but now that Krag , if in firing condition , would be worth about 20 times as much as it was then.

The Spanish bought up a lot of WW1 Gew 98 rifles dirt cheap because of corroded bores, then had them relined from 8mm to 7mm.
I think they used these up during their Civil war. Probably any that survived were rebarreled with a proper 7mm barrel at a later date or converted to their model 43 short rifle standards.

I think what killed the two piece Enfield barrel was the effect of heating from long strings of firing. These barrels can get mighty hot, and once heated and cooled the fit of the threaded joint would begin to get loose.
The same barrel might last from now on if fired as a sporter would be, no more than three to five rounds if that between cooling off periods.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't know what the problem must have been, heat in battle conditions is the only thing I can think of, but in reality, the barrel is screwed into the old barrel shank and butts up against the bolt in the normal manner, not much different to threading into the action. Beats me. My 7mm rem mag worked fine, but it was crude! Lotsa dead things as a result of it. I never measured a group, it was sighted in by my mate when I got it and everything I pointed it at died immediately!

[Uncle45Auto]

The idea of a No. 1 or No. 4 Enfield in 45-70 sounds good to me. Other than a new barrel, would it be necessary to modify the bolt head or the magazine?

[Four Fingers of Death]

The rim diameters for the 303 is .540" apparently. The 45/70 is .608" and the 444 is .514" which may be easier and also the reason I have only struck SMLEs, etc converted to 444 rather than 45/70.

Having made that profound (not) finding, there are perlenty of 45/70 conversions out there, especially in the States.

I have never had more than a passing curosity for these conversions, because for the cost of a barrel, not to mention the gunsmithing out here (or should I say down here?) you can pick up a nice used 45/70 or 444. In fact if there were any real difficulties getting it to feed from the magazine, etc, it could run dearer than a new Marlin.

The only 45/70 conversions I have come across are on the large Martini action.

[madsenshooter]

There was also a line of South African developed wildcats based on the .303 case, the Musgraves. Lee even sells a very limited production die set for the 6mm version. I've been looking around the web for a cartridge or chamber drawing, no luck yet. As I wanted to make my wildcat from .303 brass, it may be an option for me, but then, I already have the reamer and dies for the 6mm-30/40AI.

[Four Fingers of Death]

There was also a line of South African developed wildcats based on the .303 case, the Musgraves. Lee even sells a very limited production die set for the 6mm version. I've been looking around the web for a cartridge or chamber drawing, no luck yet. As I wanted to make my wildcat from .303 brass, it may be an option for me, but then, I already have the reamer and dies for the 6mm-30/40AI.

Simplex sell dies for the 303/243 and the 6mm Musgrave, which is what you are referring to I suppose. They also sell 303Epps dies (I couldn't find these, but they are available from Jansa who are the main resellers of their stuff here) I spoke to Ray (son of the original owner) and he said two or three die sets were available for the 303 Epps ( I can't remember the price of the two dies set, but the three die set were $AU205.00) RCBS Dies may be cheaper for you, but the price I got quoted by RCBS online was $143 + shipping, etc and that was in America for a two die set!

I would imagine a three die set would be superior, especially considering the fact that we are talking SMLEs (HaHa! Die sets worth more than the rifle! Rifle $70, rechamber $75-100, dies $205, lol).

[Four Fingers of Death]

Whoops! forgot the link, started a new post in case you were just watching the usercp like me.
They appear to have 303-22, 303-243, 303-25, 6mm Musgrave, 303-270, 303Epps that I can see.

Jansa Arms are a small shop in Sydney, they have their own website. Ray drops into Simplex (which is not far from him) every Friday morning. I have bought many die sets from him, service has been excellent.

http://www.jansa.com.au/simplex3.php

[Multigunner]

The idea of a No. 1 or No. 4 Enfield in 45-70 sounds good to me. Other than a new barrel, would it be necessary to modify the bolt head or the magazine?

The subject came up on another board and IIRC those familar with these conversions posted that a clearance cut of some sort in the lower left receiver wall was necessary for proper feeding from the magazine.
Not sure if both No.1 and No.4 required this clearance cut, or if it was only the No.4.
I'd check with those who have the commercial conversions first before starting on one.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks for the link Four Fingers, but their 2 die set is US $144+ shipping here. The Lee set is only $43 and includes a Factory Crimp Die. Reason I'm looking at the Musgrave is to keep from doing any receiver mods, which would be required for the 6mm-30/40AI. I may be able to get away with modifying the sideplate alone though, I guess that would be easier, and a lot less expensive than getting new dies and another chamber reamer.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks for the link Four Fingers, but their 2 die set is US $144+ shipping here. The Lee set is only $43 and includes a Factory Crimp Die. Reason I'm looking at the Musgrave is to keep from doing any receiver mods, which would be required for the 6mm-30/40AI. I may be able to get away with modifying the sideplate alone though, I guess that would be easier, and a lot less expensive than getting new dies and another chamber reamer.

Their two die set is dearer than that here. A lot of Aussie products are way cheaper in the states.

When you refer to the Lee set what round is that for? The 303 Epps I hope. I normally use Lee dies they are as good as any and as you said, have the FCD. I try and buy their delux sets, get the FLS and the neck die.

[303Guy]

Does anyone know the difference between the 6mm Musgrave and the 303-243?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Does anyone know the difference between the 6mm Musgrave and the 303-243?

There must be some difference as Simplex sells die sets for both. Probably more the fact that one was developed in Australia and one in South Africa, without consultation with each other. The 303/243 was too big in the case for the powders of the day with the 243 bullet apparently and wasn't very successful or popular. It was ok in the P14s, but why not just make it a 243 or 6mmRemington?

I picked up a 1906 or 1908 made Sht Lee sporter in 303/25 today. The stock has been bubbered, but it still has the volley sights (front and back and complete) and all of the furniture apart from the nose cap. I have a SMLE sporter with lovely wood and a reasonable barrel. I might swap out the barrels and give it to my mate who restores and rebirths old Milsup rifles.

This thread has got me interested in SMLEs and No4s again.

[303Guy]

I like the 303/25. Mine has produced some impressive accuracy and it's performance is between the 257 Roberts and the 250 Savage. I'd like one on a No.4 action. Then again, a 257 Rimmed would be very tempting! That would take it right up the Roberts (lower end Roberts).

[madsenshooter]

I've got a drawing coming from Lee on the Musgrave, will post when it gets here via snail mail.

[TRX]

I have a 1905 Ross that was originally chambered in .303 British. The barrel was butchered beyond salvage, so I immediately thought of .303 Epps, until I found that .303 blanks are way more expensive than .30 caliber blanks, and Epps dies are more expensive than that. I was looking at .30-40 Krag for a while, until I went nuts and came up withwhat I call a "semi-wildcat."

Basically, it's a rimmed 6.5 Mannlicher rimless. There was a rimmed Mannlicher, but dies are very expensive and a reamer would have to be custom made. So I'm running .303 British brass into a 6.5 rimless sizing die to create either a rimmed 6.5 Mannlicher or a variant 6.5/.303, depending on how you look at it.

I plan to load at standard 6.5 Mannlicher levels. It's not a really powerful cartridge, but the 6.5 bullet carries a lot of velocity downrange, and they tend to be accurate. I'm hoping the slight difference in cartridge taper won't affect feeding from the magazine.