simple Hi-Tek coating

[kryogen]

Get a Lewis Lead remover. It uses brass mesh on a cleaning rod type thing.
Works fast and 100%.

What is the fascination with wheel weights? they are of questionable quality and zero consistancy.
If you don't want to "add to the cost" of your alloy by using a bit of solder, or buying hardball alloy, then maybe store bought coated is your best option. Have you tried commercial coated bullets in this gun?

I have 1500 pounds of COWW ingots that I made for dirt cheap, 30 cents a pound for ingots.
I would rather do something with those 1500 pounds of lead that I have stacked....

Plated are 6$ a pound.
Would add some solder IF I knew that it would fix it for sure.

Will try the lewis lead remover.

Never tried commercial cast, they dont sell much in canada.

[ioon44]

Cold 40degF and rain today, so I coated some 200gr .45's cast with 6-2-92 alloy.
Used my drying/warming cabinet, warmed the boolits to 90degF and coated with Red Copper powder 125/20 mix, dried at 120degF for 1 1/2 hour baked 400deg for 12 min,

2nd coat at 90degF with 125/20 mix dried at 120degF for 1 1/2 hour then baked 400deg for 12 min.
The boolits look great and passed the smash test with no problems.

Two coats of the Red Copper powder 150/20 mix is working really well and was shot out of 2 different .45's at an IDPA match last weekend with zero leading.

[Avenger442]

I identify with Kryogen on the wheel weight and it's affordability. I get a full bucket here from the tire store for about $35 but found a salvage yard that lets me go through all of the weights they get in and pick out the lead ones for 40 cents a pound. Buckets of weights from the tire store contain zinc and steel weights so have to sort them. If I go to the scrap yard I sort while I'm there and end up paying a little more per lb but all lead no zinc and steel.

Kryogen:
When you processed the wheel weights did you melt the stick on weights with the clip on weights to make your ingots?

I have shot pure clip on weights through a .308 rifle with three coats of 1035 Gold in the liquid at near max loads. This was a bullet I cast for 30 carbine and was just trying in the 308 to see what would happen. Got terrible 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards but there was no lead in the barrel. Rifles typically put more pressure on the bullet than a pistol so there has to be something........

My typical alloy that I shoot in the .308 is wheel weights with 2% tin. I don't put the tin in the mix so much for the strength but to help with mold fill out. But in reading, adding tin does make a tougher bullet. I know you don't want to add cost to the alloy, I didn't, but tin on Ebay is about $33 US a pound. If your using a 20 lb melt that's about .4 lb tin or about 6 oz. of tin, if I did the math correct, or about 50 lb of alloy for another $33. Just a suggestion. I'm really not sure why the wheel weight is not working unless you had a lot of the stick on weights, which are almost pure lead, and it got your alloy down to the point it was too soft to use with your load.

[kryogen]

some batches were separate, some were together. I removed the large ones I could see, but not all.
I kept most stick on separate but not all, but they were a minority of the weight.
I made a few pure lead ingots, keeping them separate properly stamped.

[gunoil]

Iam gas checkin em now. Plainbase gas checks using coke cans from member here who helped me start. 122gr black beauties.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/BCE8E358-D2FB-46D8-ABFF-3A076117C4BF_zpsicgmfrev.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/BCE8E358-D2FB-46D8-ABFF-3A076117C4BF_zpsicgmfrev.jpg.html)

----------------
brevity&misspelling rampant

[benellinut]

kryogen, I understand your frustration but your bouncing all over the place trying to solve the problem. If you change more then one factor you won't know what solved the problem. Change a few things at one time and it will be even worse then when you get leading again you won't know what caused it or how to correct it. I suggest you slow down, try one thing at a time, cast and load 5-10 rounds and see what you get. Also make detailed notes as you go, a year from now you'll forget, believe me you will.

Good luck with it man, I sincerely mean that.

[gunoil]

What he��⬆️said:����

[kryogen]

I feel like a headless chicken, I'm really trying.

[HI-TEK]

I feel like a headless chicken, I'm really trying.


I know you are experiencing frustration and I really feel for you.

Can or may I suggest, that if you have a lot of various Lead alloys available, of unknown composition, you need to make a largest batch you can, and find out hardness of a few casts.
If you find that mixture is OK for the guns you use, then proceed to casting a few hundred, using that mix, then coating, baking, and then sizing a few at various diameters.
Load all with same powder loads, and test shoot them, and keeping records of all details you obtain and produce.
This should keep your trail of successes and failures in arranged order, so you can determine what works for you.
If coating has bonded well, and passes all tests, indications are, that "engineering" "physical"matters are needed to be refined until you get success.
As others had advised, only change one parameter at a time when doing any test.
That way you will get a direct result of one change.
Please keep in mind that the Coatings, lubes, cannot fix or solve problems if other areas are not correct, and such materials are there, simply to try and separate alloy from Barrel.

[Ausglock]

OK... I have pulled some of my test results from the depths of hell (my record keeping)
G17A ( A stands for Australia with a slightly longer barrel) Factory barrel.
Wheel weight alloy at 10BHN tested with Lee tester.
2 coated Red copper. sized .357.
4.2gn Ap-70 (Hodgdon universal)
Vel of 1055fps.
Leading from 1/2 way to the muzzle.

G34 with factory barrel, same results.

G34 with stormlake barrel. leading whole length.

I still say your alloy is too soft......

[kryogen]

I will try to water drop and reduce powder load to starting load, and test again. Might work better.

I guess that I need a lee hardness tester, just sucks that I bought stuff from titan last week, should have bought this at the same time, shipping was 15$... Or ill get it from somewhere in canada to get it faster.

at this point I have tested everything and it still leads so it might be the alloy like you say.

If my alloy is too soft, what do i add? 2% tin?

what bhn is needed for 9mm at starting loads?

[Sticky]

2% tin added to COWW alloy and water dropped from the mold will yield a higher BHN after they have aged a few weeks.. keep that in mind, the alloy will harden with aging when water quenched, so you need to wait at least a couple weeks before you shoot them. I usually let mine go for 3 weeks, as it seems that is about the ideal length to allow for aging and hardening. This should give you about a 96/2/2 alloy, which should work. The tin will also help with fillout in the mold.

[kryogen]

According to the lasc website, heat treating wheel weights at 215 celcius for 1 hour, then water quenching, will give an age hardened alloy at 18 from an alloy at 10.
According to them, bullets should not be sized after quenching.

So the plan would need to be cast, size (without contamination, in a clean and degreased sizing die), hi-tek twice, then heat treat.

Now, the heat treatment calls for 1 hour at 215 celcius to give a 18 BHN.

Can the hi-tek survive to 1 hour at 215? Will it destroy the properties of the material?

This looks like a plan for me to use my wheel weights and still get success.

Or just water drop after 10 minutes at 200, but then what do you get? maybe 12? That's good enough?
What BHN do you get from water dropping wheel weights after baking hi-tek?

[Sticky]

I use water quenching from the mold.. cast and drop em into a bucket (with a towel over top to prevent splashing water out) right from the mold, rather than dropping them in a clothed pan. You can size them if you do it soon after quenching, I do. The hardness is acquired over aging time, so the day you cast them, they are still soft enough to work with. I have dropped right from the oven after curing the last coat of HT, I cure for about 15mins at 400F, but.. I don't have a hardness tester to verify how hard that gets them as compared to dropping right from the mold. I worry about trying to subject the coating to the conventional oven hardening technique, so I use quenching right from the mold, then dry them well and coat with 2 coats of HT (usually water quench after the second coat to ensure that I am not annealing them too much by heating and air cooling) and then size them and GC if needed. Usually this is all done within 1-2 days and then I let em sit for a few weeks before loading them up.

[kryogen]

I will buy a hardness tester to figure this all out with numbers. Will try all options and see I guess.

[Sticky]

I need to as well, it's the only way to really be sure what you are getting.. but I just spent those funds on a mold in S&S, so it'll have to wait a bit more.. ;)

[gunoil]

If your alloy aint perfect, hardness tester want help either. We mix up hard junk and think we have it, NOT. l buy foundry boolit lead and also buy some made up when extra money is around. lam not a lead scientist so, (l been casting 4 years w/very expensive molds and still a big dummie) l collect correct lead with money l make. And like l said, l bought some un-coated correct lead boolits. But l also have a new love at 62, that being to gas check all ammo boolits under my roof or that l shoot.


Touch & watch vid:
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/th_A0A502BF-81DC-477D-A6A1-A072F3993841_zpshauxkv5v.jpg (http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/A0A502BF-81DC-477D-A6A1-A072F3993841_zpshauxkv5v.mp4)

------------------------------
brevity&misspelling rampant

[Gremlin460]

I water drop from the mold (9mm),dry, coat and bake, size, recoat and bake, and as yet have not had a cast too soft to put a hole in the target. In pistols at least, I feel too much onus is put on weather is 12/16/19bhn.
Mine are more accurate than I am, and do not lead the barrel. All from good ol' COWW

[Sticky]

Dangit gunoil, you ain't helpin! LOL

I use WW cause I have em. Free source of lead, other than my time and resources to turn them into useable material. Being out of work recently and not quite yet of age to collect all those benefits that I have paid into for my entire adult life, I need to keep my spending to a minimum for a while, so free lead is a big attraction to me and I will work with the process until I have a workable solution for the various weapons that I load for (pistols and AR's) where cheap projectiles will really save me $$$ as we move forward.

I will be loading for 357 and 44mag, so pressures and velocities will be challenged a bit. The 45acp is pretty straightforward. 308win and the 300AAC will be two other challenges, the latter is simple, the former not so much.. I need to know at least what hardness I am working with when using AC or WQ boolits with success in those various platforms.

I realize that a hardness tester is not a solution to anything, but for me it is a way to quantify a value that I feel does have a lot of merit in the overall equation. I am just starting out.. still have a lot to learn by trial and error.. hopefully with research and the help of others here, not too much error... :bigsmyl2:

[Sticky]

My worry with conventional oven heat treating, is what would happen to a coated boolit, Hi-Tek, or even PC'd. This is why I like the drop from the mold routine. I have had no issues with HT coated water quenched from the mold running through my Lee sizers as long as I do it within a day or two of dropping and coating. I usually coat the day after I pour them, sometimes another day before I get around to sizing them and gc'ing (when needed).

I tried taking them from the 2nd oven and water dropping and sizing wet, but it ain't my cup o tea. Water and reloading press don't float my boat, so I opt to size them dry and have no issues with rifle or pistol boolits that I have cast and coated.

I am curious what happens to the alloy (sorry to diverge from the thread a bit) with water dropping from the mold and not further heating required to cure a coating, versus the additional heating/cooling phases to which the alloy is subjected when coating, especially twice. How does water dropping from the second oven cure affect this equation?

SOooo many questions... LOL

[Avenger442]

Guys helping someone solve a problem they are having with the coated bullets is spot on and a good use of this thread.

I went back and did some checking on some notes I had made while getting ready to use the coating. The wheel weight (clip on weights only) with 2% tin alloy I have been using tested 13.4 BHN average with the Lee tester. I heat treated some (heated in oven 450 degrees then into tap water) and got 26.8 BHN average. When I coated them they lost most of the heat treating hardness. Dropped to 14.5. I decided that the 1 BHN wasn't worth the trouble of heat treating so I just started dropping them in water after the last coating of Hi-Tek. Those are running an average of 15 BHN. Like I said before, I have shot these with 1 1/2" groups 100 yards and no leading out of the .308 at near max load 43 grains of H4895 160 grain bullet gas checked three coats of Hi-Tek.

The wheel weight bullets with no tin that I shot out of the 308 were 117 grains gas checked 43-46 grains of H4895 best group I got out of those was 3" at 100 yards with the 45 grains. With no lead in barrel. The straight wheel weigh bullets have not had the hardness tested. They like the others were dropped in water after the 3rd coat.

One of the guys on this thread, memory gone, uses lino metal in 223. I'm going to test some 223s, if I can get all of my other projects done, that are 49% lino 49% wheel weights and 2% tin. BHN on them is 24.8 after three coats and water dropping after last coat. I'm with Kryogen, I don't like expensive alloys and would rather shoot the most thrifty (my wife says I'm cheap) alloy I can possibly shoot and it work.

I think I'll start dropping in water after they come out of the mold to see if I can gain BHN. That doesn't add a step before I load them like heat treating.

:bigsmyl2:Note: the above listed BHNs and the above listed loads which came out of a loading manual and your results may differ.:bigsmyl2:

[kryogen]

I will try dropping in water out of the mold and also after the last bake. We will see if that fixes it.
will also try some 357 vs 358 to compare. Now I just need to find some chore boy

[gunoil]

Dangit gunoil, you ain't helpin! LOL

I use WW cause I have em. Free source of lead, other than my time and resources to turn them into useable material. Being out of work recently and not quite yet of age to collect all those benefits that I have paid into for my entire adult life, I need to keep my spending to a minimum for a while, so free lead is a big attraction to me and I will work with the process until I have a workable solution for the various weapons that I load for (pistols and AR's) where cheap projectiles will really save me $$$ as we move forward.

I will be loading for 357 and 44mag, so pressures and velocities will be challenged a bit. The 45acp is pretty straightforward. 308win and the 300AAC will be two other challenges, the latter is simple, the former not so much.. I need to know at least what hardness I am working with when using AC or WQ boolits with success in those various platforms.

I realize that a hardness tester is not a solution to anything, but for me it is a way to quantify a value that I feel does have a lot of merit in the overall equation. I am just starting out.. still have a lot to learn by trial and error.. hopefully with research and the help of others here, not too much error... :bigsmyl2:

We are same boat, l been doing for 4 years and yes l should get a tester too. I have had ww sucess but if one lil' mistake, lam back in a hole. Iam learning too, prob slower than you. l an having a blast with gas checks too. I have free ww's too.

[kryogen]

Oh, if you guys care, I have found a good deal for bottles for storing hi-tek.
I buy nail polish remover at the dollar store. it's 1$ for a 300 ml bottle that's acetone resistant and has a hermetic cap.
I discard the remover, rinse, let dry, tadam, 1$ for a hermetic 300ml bottle to store mixed hi-tek indefinitely without issues. Best deal I could find.

Disclaimer: NO, I AM NOT USING THE NAIL POLISH REMOVER TO MIX HI-TEK...... Kmon.

Something like that:
134589

[HI-TEK]

Oh, if you guys care, I have found a good deal for bottles for storing hi-tek.
I buy nail polish remover at the dollar store. it's 1$ for a 300 ml bottle that's acetone resistant and has a hermetic cap.
Discard the remover, rinse, let dry, tadam, 1$ for a hermetic 300ml bottle to store acetone indefinitely without issues. Best deal I could find.

Something like that:
134589

Great advice for storage container for Acetone.
Must ensure, that the original contents are not mixed up with your pure Acetone, and the bottle is clean washed out before storing pure Acetone in them.
Nail polish removers, generally contain Acetone, but also contain "oily" ingredients.
These "oily additives" will cause no end of problems with the coating.
I hope that this nail polish remover is not what was used to mix the powdered coating into.

[kryogen]

discard, rinse, let dry, then use it as a storage container... Of course.

[benellinut]

I will try to water drop and reduce powder load to starting load, and test again. Might work better.

I guess that I need a lee hardness tester, just sucks that I bought stuff from titan last week, should have bought this at the same time, shipping was 15$... Or ill get it from somewhere in canada to get it faster.

at this point I have tested everything and it still leads so it might be the alloy like you say.

If my alloy is too soft, what do i add? 2% tin?

what bhn is needed for 9mm at starting loads?

kryogen,

Hang in there, you'll get it. You can use the drawing pencil set to test your lead to find the hardness, it's easy, accurate and the cheapest way. The pencils are "Staedtler Mars Lumograph Design Pencils, set# 100G12" They come in different grades of hardness. --> http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-Lumograph-Sketching-100G12-Attractive/dp/B0014E2S0Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1426905173&sr=8-3&keywords=Staedtler+Mars+Lumograph+Design+Pencils You find the softest pencil that will shave a curl off the lead, compare that numbered pencil to a chart and that will tell you what lead you have. I just bought a set off ebay for $11.50 shipped, got them in a few days, the guy only has a few sets left here --> http://www.ebay.com/itm/400860766222

Here is a thread on the pencil test, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils On page 10, about half way down you'll find the chart. You'll want to save that, print it and tape it to the inside of the lid on the pencil box. When you sharpen the pencils sand the sharp point off so it's a flat blunt end, use the edge of the blunt end to shave lead off your samples, not a sharp point. I stole a couple of my wife sand paper type nail files and put them in the pencil box.

[kryogen]

I have found a few other points that might be giving me issues with my boolits.

First, my lee 120tc is 356 and boolits are out of round and vary in size from 356 to 358.
My glock 17 groove dia is .3558

My lee 357 sizer was sizing to 3564 to 3568 or so. I enlarged it so now it sizes 3570 to 3574

What that means is that I have some lead boolits that went right through the sizer, or with very minimal force and contact points. They were probably too small and leaded.

The 358-105-swc mold that i am expecting (in the mail somewhere now) might help. If the boolits drop 358-360, and then are uniformly sized to 357, that migh work better. A full thousand and a bit more over groove diameter, with uniformity.

I will also water drop out of mold and after 3rd coat of hitek.
then that should work i guess.

I have tested my new 3 coated projectiles and they dont seem to show any bare lead after the barrel slug test with a hammer. Will have to wait for that new mold, cast, coat, and test again.

That probably means that for the next 2 weeks, I will be shooting plated bullets and will have no update.

[benellinut]

Great advice for storage container for Acetone.
Must ensure, that the original contents are not mixed up with your pure Acetone, and the bottle is clean washed out before storing pure Acetone in them.
Nail polish removers, generally contain Acetone, but also contain "oily" ingredients.
These "oily additives" will cause no end of problems with the coating.
I hope that this nail polish remover is not what was used to mix the powdered coating into.

Yeah nail polish has other stuff in it. You can get it pure Acetone in WalMart, it's a larger can then that bottle but it probably will end up being about the same price per ounce. They have one brand in the auto section near the body repair stuff and another brand in the house paint dept which is the one I get. Here's a link http://www.walmart.com/search/?query=acetone&cat_id=1072864_1067617_1067621_1043980&stores=1835

[Moonman]

benellinut,

Many here are in foreign countries,
kryogen I believe is in Quebec.
Wal-Mart is not everywhere.
He has not been able to purchase commercial
HI-TEK coated projectiles for testing in his Glock because of that also.

[HI-TEK]

benellinut,

Many here are in foreign countries,
kryogen I believe is in Quebec.
Wal-Mart is not everywhere.
He has not been able to purchase commercial
HI-TEK coated projectiles for testing in his Glock because of that also.

In most countries, where they make Fiberglass pools, tanks, or similar, should have MEK or Acetone in bulk, in 44 gallon drums.
MEK or Acetone can be interchanged for mixing with Powdered HI-TEK.
MEK is less user friendly, and dries a little slower.
Most reasonable hardware stores should have Acetone, but in a lot of cases, only in small packs, and can be expensive.
It is a case of looking around your specific area, to see if you can find an industry that would have the material in larger packs than 1 pint, or, half, or one litre cans.
Some Automotive paint suppliers, may have access to Acetone suppliers, and may be able to supply in 1 to 5 gallon lots.
Buyers must be aware, that solvents containing Acetone (with other solvents) may not be suitable.

In terms of commercial manufacture of cast projectiles in Canada, it would be useful to determine if there are any, that supply cast and supply with normal wax type lubes, who may be able to also supply straight cast alloys that would be suitable, without wax or lubes.
I am not aware of any commercial Canadian cast manufacturers.

[kryogen]

I am not aware of any commercial Canadian cast manufacturers.

I don't think that there are any.

As for the acetone, I get it at canadian tire or walmart in 1 litre metal containers.

I live in Quebec, which is a province (state) in canada.

The nail polish remover bottles are used as CONTAINERS after I have dumped and rinsed the nail polish remover. I like them because they are acetone resistant, plastic, clear, and have a nice size to shake the hi-tek.

[Ausglock]

have a look at the blue topped bottles in the background of this photo. they are 250ml juice bottles with poptops.
They are acetone safe and I use them for storing and dispensing the mixed coating.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/2013-12-24_13-02-44_778.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/smash/2013-12-24_13-02-44_778.jpg.html)

[kryogen]

Ausglock is that a melter melting ingots over the main melter so you have a steady supply of liquid lead?

[Ausglock]

Yep. I turned the 10lb pot around and run the 2 pots with PID controllers mounted in an old UPS case.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash1/2014-01-15160655.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/smash1/2014-01-15160655.jpg.html)

[Moonman]

kryogen,

That's what Ausglock does, also note the 3 multi cavity molds that
he casts with, and notice that the molds sit on a steel bar that acts
as a heat sink to help cool the molds.

He casts very rapidly with the 3 and produces piles of projectiles.

[Ausglock]

Just home from the range.
Fired more of the Superhard Bronze 500 bullets through the Marlin 1894 44mag lever gun.
All I can say is "WOW..........."
The rifle was used with factory jacketed ammo only before I bought it. there was copper fouling in the bore.
But now after a couple of 100 rounds of the bronze bullets, the bore is spotless.
Somebody that casts and coats for rifles, needs to try this Bronze 500.
After all the coatings I have tested, this one impresses me the most.

[HI-TEK]

Just home from the range.
Fired more of the Superhard Bronze 500 bullets through the Marlin 1894 44mag lever gun.
All I can say is "WOW..........."
The rifle was used with factory jacketed ammo only before I bought it. there was copper fouling in the bore.
But now after a couple of 100 rounds of the bronze bullets, the bore is spotless.
Somebody that casts and coats for rifles, needs to try this Bronze 500.
After all the coatings I have tested, this one impresses me the most.

Thanks Ausglock.
It seems, that we are progressing in the right direction with coming up with the closest product to suit all applications.
The results you had with the Bronze 500, hopefully, may be able to be applied to the other colours, and, with some work to confirm.

It would have been great to have a speed, on the ammo being shot.
I wonder what would be speed rate with that rifle with your load?
What is bore diameter and size of your cast coated alloy?

By the sound of things, that Bronze, and possibly the other Bronzes, would be suitable in most hand guns as well.

[Ausglock]

Thanks Ausglock.
It seems, that we are progressing in the right direction with coming up with the closest product to suit all applications.
The results you had with the Bronze 500, hopefully, may be able to be applied to the other colours, and, with some work to confirm.

It would have been great to have a speed, on the ammo being shot.
I wonder what would be speed rate with that rifle with your load?
What is bore diameter and size of your cast coated alloy?

By the sound of things, that Bronze, and possibly the other Bronzes, would be suitable in most hand guns as well.

The bullets are cast from 2.6.92 alloy.
Lee 200gnRNFP 6 cav mold
sized .430
1 coat baked and sized .430
2 more coats applied and sized again at .430
I have not chronoed this load, but the ADI manual shows about the 1000fps area.
I will chrono next Sunday.

[ioon44]

HI-TEK the Bronze 500 sounds really great.

Do you think your product will ever develop to the point of just one coat?

I shot a steel challenge match and 3-gun side match yesterday with a Glock 22 .40cal running 140gr SWC boolits with Black liquid coating 5-1-8 mix and 3 coats, great accuracy and no leading after about 200 rounds.

[robertbank]

No idea, no real way to test it. How do you guys do it?

"Also, is it possible to recover a shot projectile and taking a close up picture?"
Not before the summer when I can shoot at the outdoor range.

"After coating cooking and cooling, did you do a smash test, and how did you do it?"
I smashed it with a hammer, looks all good. no flaking, no wipe off.

If you still have snow on the ground at your range, pile up about 5' - 6'of snow in width, and shoot into it. Your builets will stop dead in their tracks. They do up here when we have snow, which is not very often for long.

Take Care

Bob
ps Just noticed you are in Quebec. - You have lots of snow left...go for it.

[kryogen]

The outdoor pistol range is closed during winter now that they have opened an indoor range.
Might open a few days during summer for restricted rifle shooting if I ask for it and try to open a few rifle days.

Not allowed to shoot pistol anywhere else than at the approved restricted firearm range. (yeah, not even at the shooting range next door that is approved for non restricted rifles up to 338LM).

And you can shoot even 50 BMG almost anywhere on crown land, or on the farm, (but not at the rifle range because it's 338LM only, really, ***), or semi auto 223 SU16F anywhere, but you cannot shoot 9mm handgun anywhere, EVEN at the regular gun range. (and semi auto 223 is ok as long as it's not an AR, because ARs are restricted and you can only shoot at the restricted range, but they wont allow it indoors not to damage the steel backstop. So you can shoot it a few times a year when we shoot outdoors at the restricted range.

So, no, I cannot shoot in snow or water or anything else that is not an indoor paper target until this summer.

Don't get me started on this.

[HI-TEK]

HI-TEK the Bronze 500 sounds really great.

Do you think your product will ever develop to the point of just one coat?

I shot a steel challenge match and 3-gun side match yesterday with a Glock 22 .40cal running 140gr SWC boolits with Black liquid coating 5-1-8 mix and 3 coats, great accuracy and no leading after about 200 rounds.



ioon44,
Thanks for your blog.
Many use a single coated product, to make coating go much further. They are not pretty but seem to work.
Main reason for multi-thin coats, is to dry them quickly, (mainly for commercial production), try to eliminate imperfections caused by touch and handling marks, and ensure total encapsulation of alloys, and, not to mention, to make them look pretty and professional looking with smooth even shiny coatings.
From what we have learned over years, a thin even coat will work, even if it looks blotchy and poor cosmetic finish, as long as coating is bonded and baked well.
A few marks here and there should not affect performance unless the "engineering" areas are initially compromised.
It must be kept in mind, that the coating, is a way of separating alloy and barrel, and, coating must stay put during time inside barrel without leaving deposits, and preventing alloy becoming in contact with barrel internals.
If people wish to use thicker coatings, and have success, then all is good.
Many are of the opinion, that " less is more". In this case, that description is probably accurate.
This thought however, conflicts with people, who seek perfection not only with appearance but also in performance.
My thoughts, if you are happy with what you achieved, so be it.
Keep up the good work.

[Avenger442]

The outdoor pistol range is closed during winter now that they have opened an indoor range.
Might open a few days during summer for restricted rifle shooting if I ask for it and try to open a few rifle days.

Not allowed to shoot pistol anywhere else than at the approved restricted firearm range. (yeah, not even at the shooting range next door that is approved for non restricted rifles up to 338LM).

And you can shoot even 50 BMG almost anywhere on crown land, or on the farm, (but not at the rifle range because it's 338LM only, really, ***), or semi auto 223 SU16F anywhere, but you cannot shoot 9mm handgun anywhere, EVEN at the regular gun range. (and semi auto 223 is ok as long as it's not an AR, because ARs are restricted and you can only shoot at the restricted range, but they wont allow it indoors not to damage the steel backstop. So you can shoot it a few times a year when we shoot outdoors at the restricted range.

So, no, I cannot shoot in snow or water or anything else that is not an indoor paper target until this summer.

Don't get me started on this.

The politicians must have gotten a hold of your range permissions:hijack:

Keep at it man. I know if I can get the 44mag and 308 rifle to work you can get it to work in your gun. As Ausglock pointed out previously it will be the cleanest barrel you ever had after a secession at the range. Wish I could get a good photo of how clean it is.

[robertbank]

Quebec is the dumbest province in the country when it comes to firearms, only surpassing Ontario by a bit for that honour. Sorry I forgot you might have regulations against shooting on the gun range....... Sounds like your club's BoD is no better than the Quebec CFO.

Bob

[gunoil]

You eat all those maltesess candy ausglock?

[NYBushBro]

Thanks Ausglock.
It seems, that we are progressing in the right direction with coming up with the closest product to suit all applications.
The results you had with the Bronze 500, hopefully, may be able to be applied to the other colours, and, with some work to confirm.

It would have been great to have a speed, on the ammo being shot.
I wonder what would be speed rate with that rifle with your load?
What is bore diameter and size of your cast coated alloy?

By the sound of things, that Bronze, and possibly the other Bronzes, would be suitable in most hand guns as well.

Hi-Tek Joe:

Do all of the new Bronze colours exhibit this 'super hard' quality... or just the Bronze 500?

The reason I ask is that I have asked Bayou Donnie to try to get me some of the Bronze 530. As we have discussed, my primary interest is using Hi-Tek in rifles.

[Ausglock]

You eat all those maltesess candy ausglock?

Hahaha... Some of them.
The Grandkids keep me supplied with EMPTY Maltesser buckets and pop top juice bottles.

I'm going to coat some 44's with the Bronze 530 and do a comparison against the Bronze 500.

[HI-TEK]

Hahaha... Some of them.
The Grandkids keep me supplied with EMPTY Maltesser buckets and pop top juice bottles.

I'm going to coat some 44's with the Bronze 530 and do a comparison against the Bronze 500.

Without being biased, I believe that the 502 should provide similar results as 500, and, the 530, should also work, but a different way, and 530 is also a different colour Bronze to 500 and 502.

As I said previously, as these are all new products, I need to be proven wrong, or right.
Many experienced shooters will either like them or they tell me that it is no good.
If no good is the final result, then, I will have to go back to the secret chamber and try again.
Fingers were crossed, and, so far so good.
All 3 passed smash test and solvent test and all seem to shoot well.

[Ausglock]

OK... How tough is this coating???

Have a look at this from a commercial caster here in OZ.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Heat%20stability%20test.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Heat%20stability%20test.jpg.html)

[kryogen]

So, baking last coat at 215 for an hour before water dropping to harden the alloy seems possible?

[Ausglock]

would seem so.
I have 12 bullets in the bottom of my oven. they have been through 7 bake cycles so far and the colour has darkened. I'm going to leave them there for a few weeks and then load them and see how they shoot.

[Sticky]

Interesting indeed. I am going to be loading for the 308, so a coating for that as well as being able to heat treat is of great interest. I have some red copper on hand, working with that now, if the Bronzes shake out, looks like I'll have to get hold of BB again soon!

[HI-TEK]

So, baking last coat at 215 for an hour before water dropping to harden the alloy seems possible?

From what I have now observed, and supplied to me independently by a reliable source, certainly seems to support that stance.
You need to consider, that this test was done with a non metallic coating, Dark Green, as used by Bayou, and possibly, many other coatings will be needed to be exposed to such drastic testing to see what happens.
What I can predict should happen is at least, that severe darkening of coatings may occur from over baking.

I was informed after blog placement, by manufacturer who tested it, that there in fact was a typo made.
The heat exposures were in fact done over 15 days of 8 hours each, and not 5 days as reported.
This makes the coating aspects even more interesting.
I think for commercial casting purposes, the coatings need to be baked until optimum performance is just achieved, otherwise production long winded baking, is not economical nor practical.
I think that the tests were done, just to determine just how the coating behaved after such brutal treatment.
It certainly surprised me, as I have never had such tests done since production of the coatings began.

[Sticky]

I cast some 358 boolits today from 2 different molds for my DW 357. I plan on running the second bake for one hour, using red copper and then water dropping, rather than dropping from the mold. I have a Lee hardness tester now on order, so it will be interesting to see how they stack up against AC and coated, WD and coated, WD after a normal 2 coats and normal curing time and WD after 1hr bake time on the second coat. I will report back as I gather actual data and post pics tonite of the 1hr bake on the second coating of red copper HT.

[kryogen]

I cast some 358 boolits today from 2 different molds for my DW 357. I plan on running the second bake for one hour, using red copper and then water dropping, rather than dropping from the mold. I have a Lee hardness tester now on order, so it will be interesting to see how they stack up against AC and coated, WD and coated, WD after a normal 2 coats and normal curing time and WD after 1hr bake time on the second coat. I will report back as I gather actual data and post pics tonite of the 1hr bake on the second coating of red copper HT.

you are awesome sticky, I cant wait to get the numbers.

When I get my new mould, my plan is to bake the 2nd coat an hour, and then water drop harden. Color doesnt bother me too much, I would rather use my wheel weights... ;0

I might try two things:

A batch dropped after 15 minutes in water, if it works, it's easier.
And a batch dropped after 1 hour in water. If I need it, I can still have 500 bullets ready in an hour (not waiting for it anyway, doing something else) which isnt too bad anyway. We will see.

[Sticky]

Here are a couple of pics after a second coat with a 1hr bake time at 400F, water dropped from there. I should have my hardness tester before week's end and will put some numbers to some of the variations I have cast.

I am using an alloy that should be close to 94/3/3, COWW with some pewter added in to get the tin up a bit and add a touch of antimony. We'll see how it shakes out when I get my order from Titan..

This is Red Copper HT powdered coating.. A little dark compared to my normal 2 coat/bake routine, but passed the smash and acetone test fine.

134861

134862

[HI-TEK]

Here are a couple of pics after a second coat with a 1hr bake time at 400F, water dropped from there. I should have my hardness tester before week's end and will put some numbers to some of the variations I have cast.

I am using an alloy that should be close to 94/3/3, COWW with some pewter added in to get the tin up a bit and add a touch of antimony. We'll see how it shakes out when I get my order from Titan..

This is Red Copper HT powdered coating.. A little dark compared to my normal 2 coat/bake routine, but passed the smash and acetone test fine.

134861

134862

They look great, well done. Those colours are not unusual.
Looking forward to your findings.
My thoughts are, to try and reproduce some results, unless you have an idea of alloy mix composition first, from batch to batch, you may get some variations with hardness tests.
If possible, it may be more useful longer term, try to mix largest batch of alloy mix possible.
That way, you can get reasonable reproduction of results with a lot of coated projectiles, as you are using same large batch with tested results..

[Sticky]

They look great, well done. Those colours are not unusual.
Looking forward to your findings.
My thoughts are, to try and reproduce some results, unless you have an idea of alloy mix composition first, from batch to batch, you may get some variations with hardness tests.
If possible, it may be more useful longer term, try to mix largest batch of alloy mix possible.
That way, you can get reasonable reproduction of results with a lot of coated projectiles, as you are using same large batch with tested results..

I understand your concern. I use COWW that are smelted a few times to clean and flux. I use the alloy calculator (since I don't have analytical capabilities yet) to determine how much pewter to add to 5lbs of COWW alloy and when I add to my casting pot, it is in those 5lb increments with pewter added. I add the same amount each time, so my alloy should be fairly consistent... whether it's actually 94/3/3 or not, I do not know for certain, but I am working up some rifle loads, so I want the ability to water drop from the mold and get a decent hardness to the final casts.

I know I can air cool for lower hardness, or probably coat as normal with Hi-Tek to get a little more, but not near the hardness of aged heat treated boolits. Still learning, experimenting and researching all the options.. ;)

[Ausglock]

Sticky. Good stuff, Mate.

This is all un-charted territory, and your findings will be interesting.

Need Moonman or leadman to try some Bronze 500 with long bake times with water drop to see how it compares to their previous results.
Might have to con HI-TEK Joe into sending some test samples at no charge.....[smilie=s: :bigsmyl2:

[HI-TEK]

Sticky. Good stuff, Mate.

This is all un-charted territory, and your findings will be interesting.

Need Moonman or leadman to try some Bronze 500 with long bake times with water drop to see how it compares to their previous results.
Might have to con HI-TEK Joe into sending some test samples at no charge.....[smilie=s: :bigsmyl2:


Well, the wait may not be so long with US supply of Bronze 500.
There are bulk stocks nearly under way.
Shipping and clearing will be the delaying factors.

Samples at no charge????? Good try, but no Christmas box today....lol...lol

Parcel post for small amount of samples is expensive, and, at minimum takes about 2-3 weeks to arrive, and will depend on Customs clearing delays.

[Ausglock]

Did a bit of testing last night. I applied a coat of red copper and baked it.
then applied some Aqualube 5000 sizing lube and sized the bullets.
Then applied a second coat of black over the first red copper coat and baked it.
Tried to get the second coat to smash off the first. Didn't happen.
The 2 coats were bonded fine.
The thinking was that the sizing lube would stop the second coat from sticking.
But this seems to not be the case.
I have another batch of red 254 with 2nd coat of black ready to bake and test tonight.

I'm casting more 44 pills and will try this test with the superhard Bronze 500 and the Bronze 530 to see if they behave the same.

If this works, it will make sizing after the first coat so much easier.

[ioon44]

I had lathsmith make me a long punch for my Star sizer so it will push one boolit all the way through the long wax die.

I have some Aqualube 5000 on order looking forward to using it.

I don't know if it is just me but does the Red Copper get harder to size after they have been baked for a week?

[HI-TEK]

I had lathsmith make me a long punch for my Star sizer so it will push one boolit all the way through the long wax die.

I have some Aqualube 5000 on order looking forward to using it.

I don't know if it is just me but does the Red Copper get harder to size after they have been baked for a week?


Good question ioon.
It is possible that baking for a week, may harden coating. How much??? is not known, as it has not been done previously.
It stands to reason, that extra baking should increase cross linking density, so, hardness may also increase.
What was pleasing to learn is, that the over baked coating actually performed well.
Totally unexpected.
With Aqualube 5000, please use diluted and very sparingly. You dont need much for it to work well.
You may get a pleasant surprise at significant load reduction on your sizer.

[ioon44]

Good question ioon.
It is possible that baking for a week, may harden coating. How much??? is not known, as it has not been done previously.
It stands to reason, that extra baking should increase cross linking density, so, hardness may also increase.
What was pleasing to learn is, that the over baked coating actually performed well.
Totally unexpected.
With Aqualube 5000, please use diluted and very sparingly. You dont need much for it to work well.
You may get a pleasant surprise at significant load reduction on your sizer.

Thanks for the reply
I didn't mean to imply that I had baked them for a week, I just waited a week before sizing, they were baked for 12 min.

[popper]

Sticky - If you re-bake sized boolits to W.D. check the final size. I re-baked (1 hr @400F) some PC'd, they seem to have lost 0.0005". Don't know if the coating shrank or what. I generally size after final coating and W.D., this was for a test. Just so you don't get a surprise.

[gunoil]

Diggin gas chexs now over hitech. Tonite l sprayed dillon case lube on hitech boolits before seating gas chexs, Wow they are slick. I shoot alot straighter. Rite now just doing 380/9. Incredible and super clean, barrels and all.

[Ausglock]

Hey, Gunslick, Where did you get the check maker thingy from?

[Sticky]

Sticky - If you re-bake sized boolits to W.D. check the final size. I re-baked (1 hr @400F) some PC'd, they seem to have lost 0.0005". Don't know if the coating shrank or what. I generally size after final coating and W.D., this was for a test. Just so you don't get a surprise.
Thanks popper, I'll keep an eye on that for sure. I haven't done any pc'd that way yet, but with the HT coatings, I think I will use Aus's method of coat once, size, then recoat and bake for an hour. Should have my hardness tester today, I hope!

I did let a batch of heat treated HT coated boolits sit for a few days before resizing them.. I should know better.. they were tough! lol (looks like I need to get some Aqualube next time I order.. )

[Sticky]

I had lathsmith make me a long punch for my Star sizer so it will push one boolit all the way through the long wax die.

I have some Aqualube 5000 on order looking forward to using it.

I don't know if it is just me but does the Red Copper get harder to size after they have been baked for a week?

It is very likely that your alloy had increased in hardness over that time. I always try to resize just after coating, so the alloy doesn't harden too much before I size them. Heat treating, water dropping, heck.. perhaps even just curing the coatings in the oven will likely increase the hardness, depending on your alloy.

[kryogen]

bullets with gas checks shoot better than proper fitting bullets with hi tek only?

[gunoil]

Yep Ausglock, not barefoot anymore, my boolits have shoes now and dont smell, no lube, just hi-tech-supercoat from aussie-land dwn under.

I buy mine from member/vendor here, sageoutdoors.com. First batch of gc's came to me as gift and learning curve from member here on site. He got me educated and started. Dang l shoot much straighter. +P or even lil' lighter go straight, no fliers off the paper. I have lee boolit size die in .356. Use flat nose ausglock. Leave one flat nose boolit in die at all times to set the next one on. I have 5 gallon bucket with cut t-shirt & huge rubberband to hold tshirt, they fall softly. Iam trying dillon case lube (lite spray over hitech) before seating gc's.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/BCE8E358-D2FB-46D8-ABFF-3A076117C4BF_zpsicgmfrev.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/BCE8E358-D2FB-46D8-ABFF-3A076117C4BF_zpsicgmfrev.jpg.html)

I also have a lee 338 winchester collet (FCD for rifle) to seat hornadays copper gaschecks (a special expensive copper, according to sage) on seaco boolit but can find any to buy.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/54A0FD11-20C8-430D-8253-11679BCFDDF1_zpssmwatc8r.png (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/54A0FD11-20C8-430D-8253-11679BCFDDF1_zpssmwatc8r.png.html)

Also use my arbor press (53$) to swage case bases on 9/45 with the swivel of the lee 5 hole dieplate. I machine size die shank off & toss it. Then l can have 3 or 4 dies in die-plate to swivel around to punch.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/3570FE7D-14E9-4ED4-B55D-EB92ED930F2A_zpsghqpejkv.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/3570FE7D-14E9-4ED4-B55D-EB92ED930F2A_zpsghqpejkv.jpg.html)

800lb steel table bolted to concrete garage floor, 1 ton arbor press from harborfreight. Seating gc's and swaging brass needs to be solid IMO. Notice how my long lever arm is hanging down to protect my old shoulder, l just push forward setting down effortlessly.
------------------------------------------
misspelling&brevity rampant

[ioon44]

It is very likely that your alloy had increased in hardness over that time. I always try to resize just after coating, so the alloy doesn't harden too much before I size them. Heat treating, water dropping, heck.. perhaps even just curing the coatings in the oven will likely increase the hardness, depending on your alloy.

Yes, I am sure the alloy hardened some after a week. I think I need to regard baked boolits about the same as fresh cast and let them cure 3 to 5 days to size to the diameter I want.


I just don't know if the coating changes hardness from fresh baked to setting for a week as to the sizing process.

[kryogen]

can you put alum GCs on bullets that have no GC groove? I just bought a lee 358 105 SWC and I really dont feel like buying another mould

[Moonman]

kryogen,

I think you need A GAS CHECK MOLD.

[bstone5]

Gas checks made from cola can material or .006 thick roof flashing go on plain base bullet using an up side down Lee Size die.
The pictures below are of some plain base bullets with cola can gas checks and the second picture is of some 38 caliber wad cutter bullets with the gas checks, the Lee size die upside down on a Harbor Freight hand press and the gas check maker.

I apply the cola can gas checks to a lot of powder coated bullets. Most do not put the gas checks on powder coated bullets but I do to give a very good seal and to remove all possibilities of lead in the barrel.

I used cola can material in the past but went to the .006 thick roof flashing to avoid the time required to cut up the cans.
A cheap paper cutter from Harbor freight is used to cut the roof flashing into strips for use with the gas check maker.
I also make the gas check makers with my shop equipment.

[robertbank]

can you put alum GCs on bullets that have no GC groove? I just bought a lee 358 105 SWC and I really dont feel like buying another mould

You can buy a PB Gas Check Maker from Pat Marlin. He makes good stuff and ships to Canada. You then use pop can aluminum as a source.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

Mr. stone just answered your ? He got me started.

[robertbank]

Why would you heat a bullet for an hour before dropping into water? Seems excessive to me. Once the bullet gets to a temperature of 400 degrees it isn't going to get any hotter. I water drop my 9MM into water out of the mold and harden them to B22+. What am I missing?

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

Sounds like your missing nothing. l dont know much!

[kryogen]

Why would you heat a bullet for an hour before dropping into water? Seems excessive to me. Once the bullet gets to a temperature of 400 degrees it isn't going to get any hotter. I water drop my 9MM into water out of the mold and harden them to B22+. What am I missing?

Well, I suggest that you read a bit about heat treating. It's not just about temperature, it's about time and temperature.
Do you PC or hi-tek? Because the issue, is that when you reheat to 400 for 15 min, then air cool a bullet that was quenched out of the mold, you loose the benefits.
If you water drop out of the oven after 15 min at 400, you are getting some hardness but not all.

Depending on how much hardness you need or get out of your alloy with those procedures, you can heat treat the bullet for an hour at 415 (or other temps, see chart) then water drop, to get more hardness.

Just depends what you get or want with the other procedures. My alloy is too soft and I get leading with hi-tek just air cooled. So I can either water drop last bake and see what it gives, or heat treat last bake then water drop.
http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm


From wikipedia:
"Proper heat treating requires precise control over temperature, time held at a certain temperature and cooling rate."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating

[kryogen]

I got my 358-105 SWC mold today, will cast 1000 or so bullets tomorrow. Will then hi-tek 200 or so, and water drop 100 out of the oven, and then heat another 100 for one hour at 220C then water drop. Then I'll shoot both kinds in 4 days (I shoot tuesdays) and see what it does. Starting with the heat cured ones, then check for leading, and then continue with the quench after 15min batch, then see. Then I'll report.

It's not like heat treating 1000 at a time for an hour before quenching would be hard at all, so it's not really an issue if it helps with the leading. Seriously, place 1000 in oven, come back 1 hour later, dump in a bucket of water.... easier if dropping after regular bake works though.

[robertbank]

Well, I suggest that you read a bit about heat treating. It's not just about temperature, it's about time and temperature.
Do you PC or hi-tek? Because the issue, is that when you reheat to 400 for 15 min, then air cool a bullet that was quenched out of the mold, you loose the benefits.
If you water drop out of the oven after 15 min at 400, you are getting some hardness but not all.

Depending on how much hardness you need or get out of your alloy with those procedures, you can heat treat the bullet for an hour at 415 (or other temps, see chart) then water drop, to get more hardness.

Just depends what you get or want with the other procedures. My alloy is too soft and I get leading with hi-tek just air cooled. So I can either water drop last bake and see what it gives, or heat treat last bake then water drop.
http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm


From wikipedia:
"Proper heat treating requires precise control over temperature, time held at a certain temperature and cooling rate."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating

To recap, I cast a bullet, drop it in water and I get a bullet tested at 22 for hardness. I raise the temperature of a bullet to 400 degrees for 20 minutes in an oven and drop it in water and I get the same hardness. Coat it with miracle whip, PC or Hi Tech it now requires an hour to achieve. Got it!

The only reason why I want a hard bullet using regular lube for 9MM is because 9MM is a high pressure cartridge subject to gas cutting thence leading. PCing eliminates leading by covering the lead surface with a coating which acts very much like a jacketed bullet working as a barrier between the lead bullet and the surface of the barrel. It just seems to me the need for a hard bullet is eliminated.

Yes my sarcastic friend I do PC and also cast and have done the latter for some time now. Glad to see where you get your expertise from....wikepedia alas an internet expert.

Take Care

Bob
ps I should add, for low pressure rounds like 38spl, 45acp and 45 Colt I air cool my bullets. I am not so sure I need to WC my 9mm bullets but I do. Maybe a little witch craft works....who knows.

[Avenger442]

Hey Robertbank you get 22BHN by dropping your bullets in water out of the mold? Whats your alloy?

[gunoil]

Kryogen, your "we-wreck-trick" bill is very high! Don't waist your $.

[kryogen]

To recap, I cast a bullet, drop it in water and I get a bullet tested at 22 for hardness. I raise the temperature of a bullet to 400 degrees for 20 minutes in an oven and drop it in water and I get the same hardness. Coat it with miracle whip, PC or Hi Tech it now requires an hour to achieve. Got it!

The only reason why I want a hard bullet using regular lube for 9MM is because 9MM is a high pressure cartridge subject to gas cutting thence leading. PCing eliminates leading by covering the lead surface with a coating which acts very much like a jacketed bullet working as a barrier between the lead bullet and the surface of the barrel. It just seems to me the need for a hard bullet is eliminated.

Yes my sarcastic friend I do PC and also cast and have done the latter for some time now. Glad to see where you get your expertise from....wikepedia alas an internet expert.

Take Care

Bob
ps I should add, for low pressure rounds like 38spl, 45acp and 45 Colt I air cool my bullets. I am not so sure I need to WC my 9mm bullets but I do. Maybe a little witch craft works....who knows.

Were there any inexact facts on this wikipedia page that you would like to point out, or were you just making fun of me?
This seems like a very well written article with 26 references to scientific publications. I think that it would be reasonable to trust this wikipedia info.
Feel free to call me names or make fun of me though, I was just trying to share facts.

Now, let's talk about your alloy and results. I would like to know, so we can learn better from your tests:

What is your alloy?
What's the base hardness of your alloy?
What do you use to test hardness?
Your out of mold quenched alloy is 22. After how long?
When you say that you raise the temp to 400 for 20 min, water drop, and it's still 22, did you measure the hardness of the coated bullet, or a witness uncoated bullet placed in the same tray?
Tested how long after quenching out of the oven?

If anyone else wants to contribute, I would like if it someone had the following numbers:
(please use an uncoated witness bullet as the PC or hi tek coat will probably alter hardness testing)

What is your alloy?
Hardness of alloy.
Hardness after dropping out of the mold in water.
Hardness after baking for regular time at 200C and air cool.
Hardness after baking for regular time at 200C and water drop.
Hardness after heat treating at 220 for an hour and water drop.

Thanks for sharing

[robertbank]

Hey Robertbank you get 22BHN by dropping your bullets in water out of the mold? Whats your alloy?

WW with 50 - 50 solder added. With PCing bullets now it really isn't necessary I don't think as I get no leading using PS'd bullets out of the oven and sized. There are threads here suggesting sizing bullets after WC them in water removes most if not all the hardening achieved by dropping the bullets in water straight from the mold. In the end I may not be schieving much in the way of hardening by dropping them in water but I have to drop them somewhere and into a pail containing water is as good a place as any. I generally use two 9MM 125 gr TC molds at a time and two other molds; usually a 2 cavity 38spl RN and a 4 cavity 230 gr RN 45acp mold. The 38spl and 45acp bullets are just air dried.

Take Care

Bob

[Sticky]

If anyone else wants to contribute, I would like if it someone had the following numbers:
(please use an uncoated witness bullet as the PC or hi tek coat will probably alter hardness testing)

What is your alloy?
Hardness of alloy.
Hardness after dropping out of the mold in water.
Hardness after baking for regular time at 200C and air cool.
Hardness after baking for regular time at 200C and water drop.
Hardness after heat treating at 220 for an hour and water drop.

Thanks for sharing

I got my Lee tester yesterday, played a bit with it last night to get familiar and will start to gather some data along these very lines, as I am also curious how the heating/cooling cycles of coating affect a given alloy.

I mostly use 2 alloys right now, 98%COWW with 2% tin added and an alloy of COWW and pewter that yields very close to a 94/3/3 ratio. I also have some SOWWs that I can mix in, I know many run a 50/50 mix of CO and SOWW and add the normal 2% tin. My source of lead has been free, wheel weights of both varieties, predominantly COWW with a little SOWW mixed in the buckets (and some trash, of course.. lol)

I really need to run a fresh batch of boolits, perhaps tomorrow and I will report on some that I have cast in the past also. When using a Lee tester, it is best to file a flat on the front end of the boolit, so having a witness is not really needed, you will remove the coating to perform the test anyway (besides, I tried.. it's hard to measure a dimple in a coated boolit.. much easier in a plain lead surface.)

[Ausglock]

I file a flat on the side of the bullet and test it there.

[Sticky]

That's what I meant... 'towards the front'.. lol (to get away from the base)

[HI-TEK]

I file a flat on the side of the bullet and test it there.

With hardness testing, some metals/alloys actually "work" harden.
I wonder what happens to smashed alloy hardness like when you smash it flat?

[Sticky]

I actually tested a smooshed boolit.. hit that sucker twice with a 3lb maul... it tested about the same as the unsmooshed ones from the same batch of casting when I was learning yesterday.

It was already flat.. what's not to like? LOL

[HI-TEK]

I actually tested a smooshed boolit.. hit that sucker twice with a 3lb maul... it tested about the same as the unsmooshed ones from the same batch of casting when I was learning yesterday.

It was already flat.. what's not to like? LOL

Sounds like you love to smash...lol...lol
It must really relieve the tension....

[Sticky]

Well, it actually depends.. sometimes if you don't hit that sucker squarely, it flies off in the garage somewhere.. that merely adds to the frustration.

[Ausglock]

Well, it actually depends.. sometimes if you don't hit that sucker squarely, it flies off in the garage somewhere.. that merely adds to the frustration.
Hahahaha.. When I get to cleaning my shed, I think I'll find a few 100 1/2 smashed bullets. they fly everywhere..

[Avenger442]

I file a flat on the side of the bullet and test it there.

I've been wondering about this. I read that the water quince or even the heat treating just hardens the surface of the lead , how far down I'm not sure. If you file a flat do you remove the hardened surface? Because I didn't know the answer to that question I filed the flat before baking on one bullet then water dropped after the last bake and tested that bullet. It is hard to get a reading with the Lee tester on a coated bullet but not impossible.

[kryogen]

Personally i would give it one hit with a hammer to flatten it, i wouldnt file it. Might remove the surface hardness.

if anyone has a tester, test both.

[Sticky]

I don't think the hardness is only on the surface. The reason to allow an alloy to age harden is to ensure that the processes going on inside that boolit are complete. The base of a boolit is a bit suspect, as it is the last thing to cool, so they say don't test a base, it will likely test low.

Here are some preliminary results from various casts that I have on the shelf right now. I will do a more controlled test with some freshly cast, but probably not going to cast til tomorrow, just too damn cold out there today.. lol

135243

[Ausglock]

Interesting results, Sticky.
I'm going to do a trial if 50% of 2,6,92 alloy mixed with 50% pure Lead.
This is only for casting .452 bullets at this stage.
I'll try water dropping after 2nd coat to see what happens.

[robertbank]

Interesting results, Sticky.
I'm going to do a trial if 50% of 2,6,92 alloy mixed with 50% pure Lead.
This is only for casting .452 bullets at this stage.
I'll try water dropping after 2nd coat to see what happens.

Should be perfect for .45acp or 45 Colt. You don't need hard bullets for either of those calibers if that is what they are for.

Take Care

Bob

[Ausglock]

Yeah. When I was using range reclaim, it was testing at 10 to 12 BHN and was perfect for 45ACP pills.

[Sticky]

I have a bucket or two of SOWW, but waiting for the weather to warm a bit to turn em into into ingots. I plan on doing the same, mixing them 50/50 with alloy from COWW and a little tin for the 45acp. I like the idea of increasing the yield over just COWW alloy and the 45 doesn't need hard ones, so I think just a water drop after the second coating at normal bake times will suffice and may even not be needed.. more testing to follow soon.. :)

[gunoil]

What blue colors do they have nowdays ausglock?

[Ausglock]

The closest thing to blue is the gunmetal grey.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150321_171315.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150321_171315.jpg.html)

[popper]

135509
Gold 1035 @ 1800 in 140gr. AC PB 300BO, 100 yds. Flyers are the old nut running the trigger (big time out of practice). Got some 168gr. GC with the coating to compare with PC in the 308, maybe next week if the weather holds. That load normally runs 2500. Doing small batches for alloy testing now but I can do 3-400 at a time. Much easier than PC.
Edit: 168s come out 170.4 with a 0.5gr. spread, 3 coats of gold. 3% Sb w/Cu added. 10 H.T.d (400F for 1 hr, less doesn't cut it), 10 AC'd. cast these a year ago, same batch as those PC'd, HF red, H.T.'d. Ran some of the BO with H110 (~1900) so the pressures should be close to 308 load, H335, per Hodgdon jacketed data. H.T.'d were closer to red/copper than gold in color, survived sizing with no problem. CC LRP & LC07 brass. I'll load tomorrow & hopefully get results next week. AC test in the 308 may be interesting as the BO does fine.

[gunoil]

what about the color u posted on 1st page of thread?

oh sorry that was green!

[kweidner]

I have the cabine tree. Have to admit I smash a small flat. Will file one tomorrow AM and see if it makes a difference. The small sqiushed flat indicates my 92-6-2 is where it should as well as my 25-1......... Will be interesting to see if there is any difference. Either way it is much more consistent than the saeco.

[RP]

looking at some of the post above what I have learned about testing the hardness of a boolit and the tester instructions that I have. Mine tells me to file the base of the bullet so that it is bearing on the full base of the bullet no bumps or tits to compress when testing. Test in the center of the bullet nose which will help with the lead distorting to the side of the bullet and to test at least 3 and average the readings. Also my tester if for bullets not ingots since ingots cool at a different rate they say the hardness will not be the same or give the same reading. Another thing to keep in mind a fresh cast bullet is as soft as its going to be if air cooled it must age to reach its hardness. I found this out when I was trying to mix some alloy up for a giving hardness I was wanting. A water dropped bullet is as hard as it is going to get and the softens back to the leads natural state also takes time the amount of time is still not been figured out but there are some that are doing the testing to see. Several things effect the hardness time frame such at what temp they are stored at but like I said its still up in the air. From what I understand is when you melt lead the makeup of the lead is changed when its poured and air cooled it is still changing were speaking of the atoms and molecule stuff. As time passes these line back up in lets say its natural relaxed state that is when the lead is at its true hardness. I have not done any looking into what the heat treating is doing but from what I read it takes a extended amount of time at a temp to harden the bullet.
So after all that is said if you cast and water drop and that gives you a 18 bhn then you PC and bake at 400 for 15 mins and then water dropped again will you keep the 18 bhn ? And if you cast and air cool and get a 12 bhn and then PC and water drop will this increase the bhn. I just do not know the answer to this just wanted to share what others have shared with me and what I have found out on my own. When I cast and PC they have enough time to age cure for me not to worry about the hardness for what I am shooting.

[Avenger442]

And if you cast and air cool and get a 12 bhn and then PC and water drop will this increase the bhn.

I can answer this one for you concerning the Hi-Tek baking and water dropping after last bake. I cast several sizes of bullets some time ago air cooled. Tested them for hardness two weeks after casting and then coated three times with the 1035 Gold. After the last bake cycle 390 degrees +/- 10 degrees for 12 minutes I dropped into tap water. Bullets after water drop were at a higher BHN than two weeks after casting.

[Nebulous]

Great thread! Finally finished all 260 pages. I have a couple of questions, a friend has a free propane stove, and I was wondering if this would work for baking the Hi-Tek Boolits, and also if this would very economical on a 20lb bottle?

Thanks, HHB

[gunoil]

got a pic of that oven? It have a fan inside?

[Nebulous]

Not yet. Hope to have one soon. I don't think it would have one though.

HHB

[Ausglock]

So long as the coating is fully dry before you bake.
The HITEK Coating is extremely flammable. EXTREMELY!!!!!!!!!

[HI-TEK]

So long as the coating is fully dry before you bake.
The HITEK Coating is extremely flammable. EXTREMELY!!!!!!!!!


Ausglock, Just to support & clarify, the Solvents used to mix powdered coatings are very flammable.
Also, the liquid versions already have the coating mixed into flammable solvents.
They are considered as being similar to Denatured Alcohol, Nail polish remover, Auto Thinners etc etc.
The dry coatings themselves are very difficult to burn.
You can refer to Video produced by Gateway, where coated projectiles are heated with gas torch until Lead melts, but coating does not seem affected and did not ignite when Lead was melted.

In every advice being provided, it is stipulated that all users ensure, that coated alloys are totally dried before baking.
No smoking is allowed in area where coating is carried out, and, any solvents/coatings are used where there is no chance of vapours being ignited, in a well ventilated, and if possible an open area.
On the positive side, in 22 plus years, we have not had any reports of any fire situations occurring with hobbyists or with commercial manufacturers.
It seems that advice given is accepted and all caution has been adopted.

[ioon44]

I just got some Candy Apple Red powder, is there any difference in using it as with the Red Copper powder?
Do the powder mixes all contain 2-Extreme catalyst, I just can't find the post about this?

The Red Copper with 2 coats is working great.

[Shotgundrums]

Don't mean to hijack here. But, is anyone willing to offer this aspiring boolitsmith some steadfast hands-on mentorship concerning integrating a PID to a digital oven?? :veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu Which to buy, thermocouple(s) to buy, parts etc/ installation.
It'd be for an oster TSSTTVDFL1. That's what I have, anyway. I know some build their PIDs. But I've seen some relatively cheap. Much appreciated in advance.
Josh

[popper]

Put a thermo in the Oster and see how accurate it is, could be it already has a PID controller built in.
What you want is a consistant temp through the bake cycle with minimum overshoot at warm up. That is what a PID does. +/- 5F is fine, +10F overshoot on warm up is fine.
The one hour bake I use is to make sure the atoms in the SOLID alloy have TIME to move around and make a GOOD hard alloy when quenched. Lead softens when worked, not hardens. It also slumps (cold flows) over time, so As & Sb are added. Some OP wondered about neck tension degrading with time, thought the brass gave a bit, I suspect it is really the alloy. H.T is pretty much all the way through the boolit, but the core cools last so it is a little softer.

[robertbank]

Popper what caliber are you shooting that requires a hard bullet?

loon 44 where are you getting your powder from? Is there a US supplier?

Take Care

Bob

[ioon44]

Popper what caliber are you shooting that requires a hard bullet?

loon 44 where are you getting your powder from? Is there a US supplier?

Take Care

Bob

So far the HI-TEK powder has come from Donnie at Bayoubullets.net in Louisiana.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

I just got some Candy Apple Red powder, is there any difference in using it as with the Red Copper powder?
Do the powder mixes all contain 2-Extreme catalyst, I just can't find the post about this?

The Red Copper with 2 coats is working great.


All the powdered Hi-Tek I sell has the latest generation resin and 2 extreme catalyst

[Shotgundrums]

Put a thermo in the Oster and see how accurate it is, could be it already has a PID controller built in.
What you want is a consistant temp through the bake cycle with minimum overshoot at warm up. That is what a PID does. +/- 5F is fine, +10F overshoot on warm up is fine.
The one hour bake I use is to make sure the atoms in the SOLID alloy have TIME to move around and make a GOOD hard alloy when quenched. Lead softens when worked, not hardens. It also slumps (cold flows) over time, so As & Sb are added. Some OP wondered about neck tension degrading with time, thought the brass gave a bit, I suspect it is really the alloy. H.T is pretty much all the way through the boolit, but the core cools last so it is a little softer.

No PID on this thing. I put my lead thermometers in it. And after an appreciable warm-up, they both indicate an ON cycle overshoot of 15 degrees and an OFF undershoot of 35, sometimes 40. I've tried insulating it with A towel. I've tried the bricks and slab of lead idea. All of those keep it from even reaching required temperature for over an hour in. I'm starting to consider that Breville oven. But id love to have something more exacting. Not to mention, should the Breville become dumb after a year or so of bullet curing abuse lol. If it's got a PID, its not much of one.
Josh

[gunoil]

What ever happened to gateway?

[Ausglock]

What ever happened to gateway?
He is still around.
Just really really busy with his bullet business.

[popper]

I have a cheap convection. Took the outside shell off & drilled a probe hole in the side opposite the controls for the probe (long high temp K type). Assembled an Auber PID in a small Al box, wiring the AC with an cut extension cord. Put an extension cord on the lower Calrods - left the upper rod wiring alone - the rods usually use a push-on connector. Don't wire controls or fan to the PID. I turn the thermostat to max. I leave the Lee pot at 10. When I cast I use the probe in the pot, baking it goes into the oven.
I use a low Sb alloy so I H.T. for 9,40 & 308W @ 2500 fps. The BO seems to do OK (140 & 150 gr PB) without H.T. but I haven't pushed over 1900 so far. Hope to test gold AC & HT in the 308 carbine next week to see how the coating does. I tried the liquid green in 30/30 a while back @ 1200 but it didn't do good. I know that barrel is tight at both ends & MG so stopped testing. Actually tried it with gold, 168 GC - not H.T. - 30 gr LeverE, all shots were on paper @ 100 but just barely.

[Shotgundrums]

I have a cheap convection. Took the outside shell off & drilled a probe hole in the side opposite the controls for the probe (long high temp K type). Assembled an Auber PID in a small Al box, wiring the AC with an cut extension cord. Put an extension cord on the lower Calrods - left the upper rod wiring alone - the rods usually use a push-on connector. Don't wire controls or fan to the PID. I turn the thermostat to max. I leave the Lee pot at 10. When I cast I use the probe in the pot, baking it goes into the oven.
I use a low Sb alloy so I H.T. for 9,40 & 308W @ 2500 fps. The BO seems to do OK (140 & 150 gr PB) without H.T. but I haven't pushed over 1900 so far. Hope to test gold AC & HT in the 308 carbine next week to see how the coating does. I tried the liquid green in 30/30 a while back @ 1200 but it didn't do good. I know that barrel is tight at both ends & MG so stopped testing. Actually tried it with gold, 168 GC - not H.T. - 30 gr LeverE, all shots were on paper @ 100 but just barely.
Popper thanks very much! I found a guy willing to assist me with this project as he has done PIDs on fermenters. May we converse via PM? PM sent

[Avenger442]

I know we have:hijack: going on here but.... I have a problem with my PID that I installed on my cheap oven. It will not auto tune any closer than +/- 10 degrees. I know there must be an adjustment somewhere. Can anyone help?

Remember Hi Tek Joe saying sometime back that the oven just needs to be 200C +/- 10 degrees for that amount of time but I'm wanting better control than this.

Putting one on the Lee Pro too. Was hoping for +/- 1 degree

[Ausglock]

My PID runs a 20lb and a 10lb lee pot. they overshoot by about 10 deg C.
Still have to try one on the Breville oven. Also going to try a digital timer rather than the ovens timer too.

[HI-TEK]

I know we have:hijack: going on here but.... I have a problem with my PID that I installed on my cheap oven. It will not auto tune any closer than +/- 10 degrees. I know there must be an adjustment somewhere. Can anyone help?

Remember Hi Tek Joe saying sometime back that the oven just needs to be 200C +/- 10 degrees for that amount of time but I'm wanting better control than this.

Putting one on the Lee Pro too. Was hoping for +/- 1 degree

Avenger442

Plus or minus swing of 10 degrees or so is not a problem at all.
Main things are, make sure coatings (especially first) is dried well, and coated alloy gets to a minimum of 180C. Then, it needs to stay above 180C, for at least 2-3 minutes thereafter.

Depending on oven, load size and air circulation, will all affect the time required in oven, to get coated alloy to required temperatures to set coating.
Baking at 200 or more, plus or minus 10 degrees Celsius, simply speeds up production rates.,
Some use temperatures running at 220C, so they increase production rates.

Main concern is that once a Dry load is in the oven it needs to be evenly heated, so all are evenly cured.
Poor air circulation is usually main reason why some, in same batch tray are cured, and others are not. (Also reason why undercooked coatings have an odour when shot).

The hot air, that is not circulated well, simply does not get around to all areas equally so less heat transfer can occur.
Main thing is, what ever method is used, and you get results, it is simply reproducing it each time.
Dont be afraid if the cook time is longer, all it can darken colour somewhat but coating should be OK.
Please keep in mind, that it is not only the oven that is required to get hot enough, but it is the coated alloys placed inside, is what is needed to get to right temperatures for required time.

I am a preacher at having a mini cyclone air circulation in all ovens. But I realise that sometimes it is not feasible.
The coatings are not that sensitive, and they all should work.

[Avenger442]

Well I guess the 1 degree of set temp is out the window.

Going to the Lee pot next. Will be interested to see if still 10 degree swing.

Thanks guys.

[Gremlin460]

No PID on this thing. I put my lead thermometers in it. And after an appreciable warm-up, they both indicate an ON cycle overshoot of 15 degrees and an OFF undershoot of 35, sometimes 40. I've tried insulating it with A towel. I've tried the bricks and slab of lead idea. All of those keep it from even reaching required temperature for over an hour in. I'm starting to consider that Breville oven. But id love to have something more exacting. Not to mention, should the Breville become dumb after a year or so of bullet curing abuse lol. If it's got a PID, its not much of one.
Josh

If you oven will not reach temp with heatsoaks in then your wattage aka heating resource it too low. It means your "oven" is underpowered.
In this scenario a tray of cold casts going into the hot space will struggle to return to target temperature. I personally am not a fan of over-baking. Even though results prove the coating can survive long bake times.

My own oven is an ex-house oven. It cost me $50AUD from ebay, used. I see them on the side of the road come council clear out times for free. This particular oven had 1 1200w element in the fan forced area, and another 1200w element in the grill section. I removed the Grill element and relocated it in the bottom of the oven.
Now my bake area is fed by 2400watts of heating ability, couple that with several large clay bricks. The heating reserve is very high.
Overkill you say?. Not in the slightest, once the unit is at temp, the Pid spends most of the cycle off.
Opening and closing the door, typically drops the temp by 50 degrees, however, once closed the timeline to return to temp is extremely fast. This means there is a large reserve of heat and heating ability to offset the cold casts tendancey to absorb heat.

When baking for 10.30 min, the casts are at target temp for a longer percentage of that time. IE the casts arrive at temp quicker, less than 2 mins. This was proven by drilling a hole in the base of a cast and inserting a probe from a DVM.

Little toaster DO WORK. but you are running a narrow edge between success and failure.

[Gremlin460]

Some quick pictures to show what I am talking about.

http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/DSC_0001_zps09050dd5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=13
http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/DSC_0002_zps7a868775.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12
http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/DSC_0005_zps4ac4275f.jpg.html?sort=3&o=10
http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/DSC_0006_zpsc78bbe2a.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9
http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/DSC_0007_zps127d024b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8

[Gremlin460]

I know we have:hijack: going on here but.... I have a problem with my PID that I installed on my cheap oven. It will not auto tune any closer than +/- 10 degrees. I know there must be an adjustment somewhere. Can anyone help?

Remember Hi Tek Joe saying sometime back that the oven just needs to be 200C +/- 10 degrees for that amount of time but I'm wanting better control than this.

Putting one on the Lee Pro too. Was hoping for +/- 1 degree

Have you set it to AUTO-LEARN? they get better the more you use them in that mode. Mine does +/- 3 now. It used to be higher

[shoot-n-lead]

Little toaster DO WORK. but you are running a narrow edge between success and failure.

What are you talking about?

Plenty of people are using the toaster's, to good effect.

[gunoil]

Well lord have mercy, he autta answer his phone calls ausglock, eric told me he had a star bullet l was wanting to buy.

This one:

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/FB2F40EF-4C1C-46CC-8D77-F7904E3AB038_zps9c6toawu.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/FB2F40EF-4C1C-46CC-8D77-F7904E3AB038_zps9c6toawu.jpg.html)

------------------------------------------
brevity&misspelling rampant

[Ausglock]

what the hell is that? 44??

[gunoil]

no, its a lil' 38/357 bout 125 gr. It came in my loaded 700$ star sizer. Eric said gateway has that mold for his big casting machine.

Still no answer, no answer service either.

[Avenger442]

Have you set it to AUTO-LEARN? they get better the more you use them in that mode. Mine does +/- 3 now. It used to be higher

I understand that it has to learn the oven. It goes out of auto tune after a few minutes so I tried to tune it several times. Maybe it will get better.
Thanks


Ausglock:
Do you use the lubricant on your Lee molds when your casting?

[Shotgundrums]

Thanks, Grem and Joe for all information. Cleared up some things ☺️

[gunoil]

Ausglock, l found some from another mastercaster owner. 500 for 40$. Oh well, l like em.

[robertbank]

I just got off the phone with Donnie from Bayoo Bullets. I ordered a KG of powder ( 2 x 500 grams). One in Gold and one in Green. University of Alberta/Edmonton Eskimo colours. Ordered the powder due to ease of shipping. The catalyst is already in the powder. I have been powder coating my bullets and will continue to do so as well as using the Hi Teck product. The latter will predominate. Not sure how the acetone will evaporate when the temperature falls to below zero Celsius.

Now I have three weeks to wait for USPS/Canada Post to do their trick before the powder arrives. Time to do some major casting.

Take Care

Bob

[ioon44]

I just got off the phone with Donnie from Bayoo Bullets. I ordered a KG of powder ( 2 x 500 grams). One in Gold and one in Green. University of Alberta/Edmonton Eskimo colours. Ordered the powder due to ease of shipping. The catalyst is already in the powder. I have been powder coating my bullets and will continue to do so as well as using the Hi Teck product. The latter will predominate. Not sure how the acetone will evaporate when the temperature falls to below zero Celsius.

Now I have three weeks to wait for USPS/Canada Post to do their trick before the powder arrives. Time to do some major casting.

Take Care

Bob


To deal with cold weather coating I built a drying/warming cabinet. Getting the boolits to 25 to 30deg C before applying the first coat starts the acetone evaporating faster the thinner the mix the faster it dry's , after about 1/2 hour I put them in the heated cabinet at 50 to 60deg C for 1 hour.

I have baked them for 12 min at 200deg C after 1 hour or some times waited until the next day to bake, so far boolits have passed the smash and wipe test and preformed well in several different guns.

[robertbank]

Good to know ioon44. My enthusiasm for doing much other than casting varies directly with a falling temperature. Had air conditioning been around in 1775 or so, I might have been your neighbour. As it is my distant relatives headed into Ontario when the Irish rebels started making such a fuss.:-o Sam McGee and I have a lot in common. I would rather sit in the oven then watch from outside when ice crystals fall from the humid air. Did I mention I am no fan of winter? Well watching Hockey and Curling does help pass the time along with bullet casting.

Take Care

Bob

[220]

Ive found my breville very good, was getting boolits that looked a bit over cooked to start with, 200c 10-12min depending on coating.
Ran it with a couple of different thermometers and found the oven temp was out by 10c with about 10c over or under swing.
It was hitting as high as 220c, now run it at 190c on the dial temp range now is 190-210c could probably drop back another 5-10c on the dial but it is working and producing nice boolits so Ive left it alone.

[Ausglock]

The only lube I use on Lee molds is the HITEK Super 500 Mold release.
Spray it on and brush in with a toothbrush.
I also use a Q tip to wipe a very light coating of synthetic 2 stroke oil on the underside of the sprew plate.

[Sticky]

My Lee molds typically drop with no need for lube (other than the sprue plate). They actually drop very well with just a soap and water/toothbrush cleaning..

Okay Kryogen, here is some preliminary data for you. Cast some peestol and rifle boolits on 3/31. I used my remaining 94/3/3, which I get by adding a little pewter (look for this at yard sales) to my COWW alloy. I ran the alloy at about 700F, water dropped all but a few, Hi-Tek coated most with my normal 2 coats and 20mins in my mini toaster oven and ran a few more for an additional 40 mins to make one hour at 400F. Didn't run the peestol boolits at the 1hr treat and didn't go to the 220C range for this batch, but I will run another batch tomorrow using COWW with 2% Sb added and run some at 220C also for you. I also didn't run a normal air cool after coating, which I will add in this next run of testing. The results posted are from testing 2 places on 2 different boolits from each batch and averaging the numbers (I do get some slight variations, but they are minor, thus testing 2 different sample boolits and averaging the 2 readings from each to a final average number).

These are the results after 4 days, ran the Lee 3092305R and also some RCBS 358158RN. I will test again after 2 weeks and one more time at 3 weeks for final results...

135805

[Gremlin460]

What are you talking about?

Plenty of people are using the toaster's, to good effect.

Please do not get me wrong, small toasters DO work, and I said so in my post.
However they have a harder time recovering from tray swaps, an 700w or 1000w element will struggle more with 250 45cal cold casts.
Hi-Tek once told me right from the beginning, and he can jump in if I mis-quote him here, Hi air flow and constant stable temperature is the ideal situation that I need to strive for.
Some people I have spoken to say they are pushed for room and that a house oven would take up too much room. Fair statement, I use my oven as a cupboard for storing my pot and gas ring ladles, molds for ingots etc. when not in use. So it doubles at storage.

This whole tread consists of coaters stories of what has worked for them, and what has not.
My post was just that. Not a shot at those who use toaster ovens.

[Avenger442]

The only lube I use on Lee molds is the HITEK Super 500 Mold release.
Spray it on and brush in with a toothbrush.
I also use a Q tip to wipe a very light coating of synthetic 2 stroke oil on the underside of the sprew plate.

I really have not had trouble with the Lee dropping the bullets. So don't need lube for that. Need to do something under the sprew plate and general lube to help keep mold clean. Had been using some bees wax for sprew plate but got concerned about contamination from wax keeping the Hi Tek from sticking.

Cast about nine pounds of .308 as I had time yesterday and today. These are COWW With 2% tin water dropped from mold. Plan to let them age a week test BHN . Then coat water drop on last coat test BHN and report back. Want to see if I gain anything with this alloy by water dropping out of mold. I have BHN for the alloy just water dropping after last coat.

Yes I'm playing with my process a little. The water drop after last coat have shot great. I have not had any problems with the coating except one batch of 45 cal. that I think did't get dry on first coat before baking. No lead in rifle barrels. Most of the time they look bright and shinny like they were cleaned.

[HI-TEK]

Please do not get me wrong, small toasters DO work, and I said so in my post.
However they have a harder time recovering from tray swaps, an 700w or 1000w element will struggle more with 250 45cal cold casts.
Hi-Tek once told me right from the beginning, and he can jump in if I mis-quote him here, Hi air flow and constant stable temperature is the ideal situation that I need to strive for.
Some people I have spoken to say they are pushed for room and that a house oven would take up too much room. Fair statement, I use my oven as a cupboard for storing my pot and gas ring ladles, molds for ingots etc. when not in use. So it doubles at storage.

This whole tread consists of coaters stories of what has worked for them, and what has not.
My post was just that. Not a shot at those who use toaster ovens.

Yea, Gremlin,
I am an advocate of a mini cyclone inside ovens.
That evens out air temperatures, transfers heat into alloy faster, temperature controllers become more reliant, even cooking of all alloys.
If you oven has low wattage, it should really not matter much, as long as you are aware, that time inside oven, of coated alloys may be needed to be "adjusted" to suit.
Having said all that, many are getting good results with small ovens as they do not have big loads, and have plenty or air space between alloys during bake.
I suppose, people make do with what works for them, after some playing, to find optimum conditions for their equipment

[andre3k]

Have a question about the smash test: how many time are you guy striking the bullet? My coating is intact after 3 - 4 strikes. After that it will begin to flake off when the bullet is almost completely flat.

I'm using 20 grams of coating to 100 ml of acetone and baking at 400 for 11 minutes. Temps are verified with a thermometer inside the oven. I also let the bullets dry for 30 mins before I put them in the oven. What would be causing my failures?

[Avenger442]

andre3k:
Man you really must like smashing those bullets:kidding:

I've seen many comments on this thread about the smash test. So I'm going to tell you how I do it. I lay the bullet on it's side on the anvil portion of my vice and hit it with a two pound sledge hammer. It usually ends up about 1/8" thick after one blow. Some times I get some very small flakes almost dust. There will be a few not a lot. I have shot those bullets with no leading in my .308. The one failure I had was with the 45s. It was unmistakable large flakes about the size of a 16d (that's penny, another fine Kings measurement) nail head and down to the lead. The cause, I believe, was getting to fast with the drying time. I usually dry (especially the first coat) over night now due to this. I have seen comments that a too thick first coat will flake but it looks like you are using the correct mixture for powder Hi Tek. I control my coating thickness by mixing thinner than recommended or more acetone. This is another reason for longer drying times. To use a phrase coined by one of the guys you are "staining" not painting the bullet. If you cannot see the lead through the first coat before baking it is too thick. In most cases you can only see my first coat by looking hard.

If they are perfect they will look like Ausglocks post 4172 on page 209.

Hope this helps. Keep at it. It works.

[rnt300]

Allright guys, i shoot 300 aac and i am going to cast lightweight for my super sonic rounds and heavier for my sub sonics. My question us for a .309 boolit at around 115 grains doing over 2000 fps and hi tek coated, is it necessary to still use gas checks to maintain good performance or is the hi tek good enough?

Thank you in advance!

[HI-TEK]

Quote "The one failure I had was with the 45s. It was unmistakable large flakes about the size of a 16d (that's penny, another fine Kings measurement) nail head and down to the lead. The cause, I believe, was getting to fast with the drying time. "

Avenger,
as they say, you hit the nail right on the head....
Main causes of adhesion failure is rushing drying when it is cold, or humid conditions.
Drying problems is made worse if trying to coat thickly with first coat.
It simply takes a hell of a long time for thick coats to dry unless they are warmed for periods.
Alternatively, you can pre-warm alloy before coating, then coat quickly, and warmth residue in alloy, should help dry coating faster.

Ausglock has become the master smasher.....

[gunoil]

hitech 500 mold lube is all l use w/ q-tip. Love it & my new molds dont look burnt.

Try it out robertbank & let us know. Sure is quick & easy. Thanks for your help on lead recipe.

[Ausglock]

here, yesterday, it was raining and cool (22deg C) and 95% RH in my shed.
I coated and baked 400 200gnRNFP 44 pills with Bronze 530.
2kg of bullets with 6mls of coating.
trays of coated bullets were left for 1 hour to dry. But still didn't "feel or look" right.
So set the tray on top of the hot oven to pre-warm them.
Tray was on the oven for 10 minutes and temp was 40deg C after the 10 minutes.
Placed in oven and baked at 200Deg C for 12 minutes.
The next tray was placed on top of the oven to warm.
did this for the 3 trays.
ZERO smash failure.
All OK.

I have some 1" timber broom handle cut into pieces 1" long.
these are the spacers that the tray sits on when warming.
these spacers allow the warm air to circulate around the bullets to warm them.

Try it. You'll love it...

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Ausglock;3204622]
ZERO smash failure.
All OK.

Any pictures?
Would like to see how they turned out.

[Ausglock]

I'll take a few photos and do a new smash video later on.

[Ausglock]

Photo of Pat303's black that turns out brown.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/pat303.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/pat303.jpg.html)

[PAT303]

Joe what am I doing wrong?,I coated some 303's today and can smash them to the thickness of a coin so the coatings working a treat,if you look at the jar you can see the gold flakes but they turn out brown,any idea's?.Those boolits are coated,dried and baked at 200C for 15mins first coat,12mins second,pass the wipe and smash tests,2mls of coating per Kg of boolits and shoot perfectly out of my rifles or 357 revolver,very happy with it but would prefer black if possible. Pat

[HI-TEK]

Joe what am I doing wrong?,I coated some 303's today and can smash them to the thickness of a coin so the coatings working a treat,if you look at the jar you can see the gold flakes but they turn out brown,any idea's?.Those boolits are coated,dried and baked at 200C for 15mins first coat,12mins second,pass the wipe and smash tests,2mls of coating per Kg of boolits and shoot perfectly out of my rifles or 357 revolver,very happy with it but would prefer black if possible. Pat


Hi Pat 303,

What colour are you using?
I see Ausglock, saying below, about Pat's 303,s that are turning Brown and are looking as one of the Bronzes or Bronze Copper?
It is confusing?
Which colours are on labels?

[Ausglock]

Pat. was this liquid or powder?
As Joe asked, What was on the label of the coating when you received it?
How long ago did you get this?

[PAT303]

It's Texas tea liquid,I got it about 6 months ago.I'm not worried about the colour,the coating works very well and comes out of the bottle black with gold speck,just wondering if I'm doing something wrong with the process.If the colour is the only problem I have to deal with using your product I'm not worried in the least. Pat

[PAT303]

Just checked,it's got Texas Tea on the label,just a bit more on the coating,I've been sizing 32/40 boolits down from .322 to .316 to use in my 303's,the boolits are tripled coated as they are loverin style boolits with lots of grooves and the coating makes it easy with one pass through a sizer,if I bake the first coat for 15 mins instead of 12 the coating sticks like baby poo to a blanket. Pat

[HI-TEK]

It's Texas tea liquid,I got it about 6 months ago.I'm not worried about the colour,the coating works very well and comes out of the bottle black with gold speck,just wondering if I'm doing something wrong with the process.If the colour is the only problem I have to deal with using your product I'm not worried in the least. Pat


Pat 303,
I suspect, that it may be simply a mixing problem.
The stuff does settle well, and possibly in layers, it takes an effort to re-suspend all contents.
Depending on how much you have left in bottle, simply put into it some Glass marbles or similar, to act as mixing aid like in aerosol cans.
Tighten lid, and mix well.
Let us know how it ends up.
With Texas Tea powdered system, settling of concentrate is eliminated, as you can make up amounts as required and there should be no separation of components in the powders, like you may get with solvent concentrates.
You need to keep in mind, that solvent based concentrates are low viscosity systems, and, therefore settling will occur at various rates, and depending on coloured systems.

[PAT303]

The gold specs do sink to the bottom,I'm not worried,the coating does everything you claim it does,that is a rare thing these days. Pat

[Gremlin460]

Joe! I'm out of coating! Need some Candy Apple and something Bright Green please. PM details and I get it done.

[Ausglock]

Pre-warming spacers on top of ovens
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150406_153128.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150406_153128.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150406_153145.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150406_153145.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150406_153202.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150406_153202.jpg.html)

Experimental powders.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150406_153221.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150406_153221.jpg.html)

Mixed Experimental powders and coating buckets.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150406_153233.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150406_153233.jpg.html)

Most of the powders are going to get thrown out. They all work. But some a bloody horrible colours.
Dark Olives, turd browns etc etc. I'm running out of room.
The coating buckets get washed with MEK and reused. The pop top bottles get tipped out and thrown in the recycle bin.
I will upload 2 new smash vids later on.

[Ausglock]

New clearer videos of smashing.

The Bronze one is a lee 200gn RNFP and was coated once then sized. this was due to the base being a flat base and had flashing on it.
2 more coats were applied for the Bronze 530.

These have been pushed at 1470fps out of my Marlin 1894 44 Mag with 13.5gn of W540 (HS6) with Large rifle primers.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/th_20150406_151912.mp4 (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150406_151912.mp4)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/th_20150406_161635.mp4 (http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/20150406_161635.mp4)

http://vid193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/smash/20150406_161635.mp4

[kryogen]

I have just tested something.

Coating Lee 105 SWC 2 times, with 1ML per pound. The lube grooves are not really coated, but I think you guys said that it did not matter at all.
The 2nd coat was baked at 220 celcius for an hour, and dumped into tap cold water. They were towel dried and sized immediately to .357.

I will reload some later this week to try. I need to let them cure at least 24 hours, and ideally 48 hours, so I'll shoot those at the end of the week I guess.
I have 150 or so, I really hope that they don't lead. I'll start with 50 or so, so I don't have to pull an awful lot if they lead.

The color (was brown copper) is now like a burnt caramel copper, but they still look good, and totally pass the smash test.

They just dried on top of the oven 10 minutes before baking, both times. Works #1.

Will report once I have tested those. Still looking for a 9mm COWW load that doesnt lead. Heat treating and a larger mold is kind of my last try. If that doesnt work, I'll try a 358 sizer, and if that doesnt work, I'm out I guess.

[fredj338]

Have a question about the smash test: how many time are you guy striking the bullet? My coating is intact after 3 - 4 strikes. After that it will begin to flake off when the bullet is almost completely flat.

I'm using 20 grams of coating to 100 ml of acetone and baking at 400 for 11 minutes. Temps are verified with a thermometer inside the oven. I also let the bullets dry for 30 mins before I put them in the oven. What would be causing my failures?
I flattened mine pretty good, coating appears intact. I use the liquid, 5-7-1, so not sure how that translates to the dry. I use a fan to dry, about 10m, then bake for 10, then cool in front of the fan, recoat, dry again, bake. Cheap toaster oven until I can find something better.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/photo_zps4z0katpx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/photo_zps4z0katpx.jpg.html)

[robertbank]

I have just tested something.

Coating Lee 105 SWC 2 times, with 1ML per pound. The lube grooves are not really coated, but I think you guys said that it did not matter at all.
The 2nd coat was baked at 220 celcius for an hour, and dumped into tap cold water. They were towel dried and sized immediately to .357.

I will reload some later this week to try. I need to let them cure at least 24 hours, and ideally 48 hours, so I'll shoot those at the end of the week I guess.
I have 150 or so, I really hope that they don't lead. I'll start with 50 or so, so I don't have to pull an awful lot if they lead.

The color (was brown copper) is now like a burnt caramel copper, but they still look good, and totally pass the smash test.

They just dried on top of the oven 10 minutes before baking, both times. Works #1.

Will report once I have tested those. Still looking for a 9mm COWW load that doesnt lead. Heat treating and a larger mold is kind of my last try. If that doesn't work, I'll try a 358 sizer, and if that doesnt work, I'm out I guess.

One comment I will make is you can get leading with hard lead. Leading in the main is caused by gas cutting either because the bullet doesn't seal the bore due to being to small in diameter or the bullet will not obuterate at the base due to the lead being to hard. Too, lube quality can cause leading often because it is to hard and doesn't liquefy and seal the bore allowing gas to pass by.

[kryogen]

Well they lead air cooled so we will try heat treated.
if they still lead ill try water drop after regular bake.
if they still lead ill try 358 same thing
if they still lead im selling all my lead and pistols and screw this....

[robertbank]

Well they lead air cooled so we will try heat treated.
if they still lead ill try water drop after regular bake.
if they still lead ill try 358 same thing
if they still lead im selling all my lead and pistols and screw this....

Quitter.:bigsmyl2:

Bob

[Shotgundrums]

Softoff. 😂

[pauly]

G'day from Downunder . [smilie=s:

G'day Trevor , mate if those sample colour powders are okay mate don't chuck em out put in a box and I will pay the freight to send them to me in South Australia . :razz:

Regards Paul . :razz:

[Ausglock]

G'day from Downunder . [smilie=s:

G'day Trevor , mate if those sample colour powders are okay mate don't chuck em out put in a box and I will pay the freight to send them to me in South Australia . :razz:

Regards Paul . :razz:

Sorry. I can't. Not allowed.
The manufacturer states that all experimental samples must be destroyed or disposed of.
Samples are not to be used for any purpose other than testing to verify they are "fit for purpose".

[pauly]

G'day from Downunder . [smilie=s:

G'day Trevor , no worry's mate I understand :sad: I just hate to see such a great product wasted I guess I will just keep using my D.D.Red and Texas Tea powders as they do make such pretty boolits .

Regards Paul . :razz:

[Ausglock]

I'm going to mix a few together and see what colour comes out.
The Gunmetal Grey mixed with Gold 1035 should be interesting.......

[kweidner]

gold 1035 is my favorite. All my commercial stuff gets it.

[robertbank]

Well they lead air cooled so we will try heat treated.
if they still lead ill try water drop after regular bake.
if they still lead ill try 358 same thing
if they still lead im selling all my lead and pistols and screw this....

You probably checked this but have you ever loaded a bullet then pulled it to see is you are scrapping the paint off the bullets when you seat them. I did until I opened up my belling a bit more than I had it set at and the problem solved some leading I was getting. Any exposed lead on the driving bands has the potential to lead your bore.

Take Care

Bob

[Gateway Bullets]

What ever happened to gateway?



Kinda difficult to get much computer time anymore when you are putting in 10-12 hour days in the shop, plus the kids stuff on top of that!!!!!

[Avenger442]

Kinda difficult to get much computer time anymore when your putting in 10-12 hour days in the shop, plus the kids stuff on top of that!!!!!

Been there done that. Family time very important. Mine are grown and out of the house but still make time for them.

Cast another 5 lb of bullets yesterday. Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold CTL312-160-2R. Going to size them down to .309 after first coat.

[Ausglock]

Kinda difficult to get much computer time anymore when your putting in 10-12 hour days in the shop, plus the kids stuff on top of that!!!!!


BooHoo... Ya big girl...
You sound like HITEK Joe... he has the man flu and is whinging like a little girl.

Good to see you are still in the land of the living and pumping out the bullets. Run out of coating yet???:bigsmyl2:

[Gateway Bullets]

Getting low and need to order pretty soon.

[Gremlin460]

You sound like HITEK Joe... he has the man flu and is whinging like a little girl.



Oh god no, and I was just going to buy more coating! Will have to quarantine it now.

[Ausglock]

Spray it with Baygon to kill the germs...

[HI-TEK]

Oh god no, and I was just going to buy more coating! Will have to quarantine it now.


Oh nooooo, you let out my secret recipe, green slime.....lol, made from exclusive down under bugs

[popper]

136369
300BO PB, ~1800 fps @ 100. I think the 1st group(Smokes black PC) formed a 'ring' due to base coating variations. Vertical strung were 1035 gold so the coating is more controlled on the boolit. I was really working on trigger pull, cheek weld and breathing this time. Dealing with bad weather and wife's relatives and 2 sisters have kept me from testing in the 308 this week. Lots of rain scheduled for next week, I need a break. Interested in Avenger's 308 results too.

[Avenger442]

136369
300BO PB, ~1800 fps @ 100. I think the 1st group(Smokes black PC) formed a 'ring' due to base coating variations. Vertical strung were 1035 gold so the coating is more controlled on the boolit. I was really working on trigger pull, cheek weld and breathing this time. Dealing with bad weather and wife's relatives and 2 sisters have kept me from testing in the 308 this week. Lots of rain scheduled for next week, I need a break. Interested in Avenger's 308 results too.

Popper
Looks like your results are a little better than mine. So far mine are running about 1 1/2 " groups at best. My shooting technique is not greatest in the world so I use a rest to eliminate some of my bad habits. Are you shooting from a rest?
Was at the range the other day with a young friend of mine and his Granddad. His 75 year old Granddad hit the 100 yard target with his lever action 30-30 once in the bulls eye and twice within three inches of center out of five shots using iron sights no rest. He was kidding me a little about using the scope but my eyes are bad enough that I have to at 100 yards. With no rest and the scope I out shot him but not by much.

[popper]

Adjustable front stand & rabbit ears back bag. Scoped rifle as I can't focus on the BUIS. I push the LR308 carbine to 2500 GC'd and get 1 1/2" - haven't shot it for a while. If the H.T. 308 170gr. with gold works I'll stop ESPC altogether.

[kryogen]

Adjustable front stand & rabbit ears back bag. Scoped rifle as I can't focus on the BUIS. I push the LR308 carbine to 2500 GC'd and get 1 1/2" - haven't shot it for a while. If the H.T. 308 170gr. with gold works I'll stop ESPC altogether.

I have stopped PC also.

[Shotgundrums]

Yea, Gremlin,
I am an advocate of a mini cyclone inside ovens.
That evens out air temperatures, transfers heat into alloy faster, temperature controllers become more reliant, even cooking of all alloys.
If you oven has low wattage, it should really not matter much, as long as you are aware, that time inside oven, of coated alloys may be needed to be "adjusted" to suit.
Having said all that, many are getting good results with small ovens as they do not have big loads, and have plenty or air space between alloys during bake.
I suppose, people make do with what works for them, after some playing, to find optimum conditions for their equipment



I smashed some bullets coated months ago that now we're failing by flaking when hammered past a certain point.
I took some of these bullets which I thought were cured...at the 28 second mark of the wipe test, faint coloring started to appear. I took a shot and threw them back in the oven. After 20 minutes I then tested again. This time, no flaking when smashed down to 1/8 inch. Then threw in some freshly coated bullets and finally after 20 minutes, all have passed. However, because of the much longer dwell time, the color is far darker than prescribed: red copper turns almost maroon, brown copper turns to something just above a maroon, zombie green almost a golden green. While the color isn't the most important thing, these are just some observations.
My oven is not overloaded. The fan works. How efficiently it circulates I'm not sure. The temp is verified by a couple lead thermometers, with and without tray loads.
For all intents and purposes, this oven manages to cure the coating. It's far slower and color is misrepresented.
These are my small oven observations. I may have to get a new oven...$$$...Mine seems to be too underpowered. If curing metallic coatings, it takes a MINIMUM of 20 minutes to fully cure and pass 30 seconds of wipe test. Non, around 16+ minutes.

[robertbank]

My order from Bayou Bullets should be here Monday or Tuesday according to PO tracking. I mentioned this on another thread, thanks Donnie your service is outstanding. Will do more business with you as need arises.

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

I smashed some bullets coated months ago that now we're failing by flaking when hammered past a certain point.
I took some of these bullets which I thought were cured...at the 28 second mark of the wipe test, faint coloring started to appear. I took a shot and threw them back in the oven. After 20 minutes I then tested again. This time, no flaking when smashed down to 1/8 inch. Then threw in some freshly coated bullets and finally after 20 minutes, all have passed. However, because of the much longer dwell time, the color is far darker than prescribed: red copper turns almost maroon, brown copper turns to something just above a maroon, zombie green almost a golden green. While the color isn't the most important thing, these are just some observations.
My oven is not overloaded. The fan works. How efficiently it circulates I'm not sure. The temp is verified by a couple lead thermometers, with and without tray loads.
For all intents and purposes, this oven manages to cure the coating. It's far slower and color is misrepresented.
These are my small oven observations. I may have to get a new oven...$$$...Mine seems to be too underpowered. If curing metallic coatings, it takes a MINIMUM of 20 minutes to fully cure and pass 30 seconds of wipe test. Non, around 16+ minutes.

Thanks for your findings.
Main areas that may cause this possibly, is that ambient temperatures outside are very cold, and if oven walls are not insulated, will cause mayor heat losses, and, your heating element capacity struggles to keep up with maintaining heat losses.
Heat coming /radiating from these ovens through the walls, can be useful when trying to dry next batch on top but no good when trying to speed things up.
It may be useful to insulated internal walls to try and trap heat inside.
Many cheap materials are available from hardware stores that may be suitable to internally line small ovens..
Various mineral thin boards can be simply glued in place with High temperature Automotive type Silicone but please ensure that vents, that allow escape of gasses/fumes is not blocked up.

With Metallic coatings, due to their heat reflecting property, also adds to slowing of heat transfers into alloys, especially if heating is not adequate, by element being low wattage, or too much heat losses through oven wall, or combination of both.

It never seems to stop amazing me, with all sorts of variables that had popped up, that require problem solving, since coatings were introduced into colder climatic areas.
I am very impressed with all you guys, who have taken time and effort, certainly showed a great resolve, and ingenious inventiveness to overcome shortfalls.
Thank you all much for your efforts.

[Avenger442]

Hey Joe, while we are helping you we are helping ourselves in the process.

I have a cheap (even when it was new) convection oven that will only hold one tray bought at a yard sale. No insulation in the walls of the oven. Outside gets really hot on the top. I found early on that a lot of my heat was escaping around the door. There was no seal between door and oven with about an eighth inch gap all around the edge of the door. I overcame this with a high temperature silicone seal. One of my earlier post tells you how to create it. We used this stuff to put car engines together when we couldn't find the right gasket. It will take well over 500 F degrees without breaking down. After sealing the door that is about the max temp the oven will reach.

Another thing that I would question would be the lead thermometer being used. I've found that these, while accurate enough to heat lead, are not close enough to bake the coating. Would suggest a cooking/frying thermometer that reads over 500 F. If you ever want to check the accuracy of a thermometer, boil water and stick thermometer in it. Should read 100 C or 212 F. My lead thermometer was way off but found that I could adjust it. The PIDs have taken all the guess work out for melting the lead. I haven't tried the one on the oven while baking a load of bullets yet.

Shotgundrums keep at it.

[gunoil]

Gateway, u sell these? Magma mold, eric said u have it.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/FB2F40EF-4C1C-46CC-8D77-F7904E3AB038_zps9c6toawu.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/FB2F40EF-4C1C-46CC-8D77-F7904E3AB038_zps9c6toawu.jpg.html)

38/357

[atygrit]

I am STILL having issues with the coating coming off in my 45 and 9mm barrels. First I tried my own coated bullets then ordered from two manufacturers to see if it was my bullets, and I'm still getting the same issue.

Please give me some ideas on what to look for that could be causing this issue. I am at my whits end on this, I have been messing with this off and on for over a year. I wouldn't complain about it too much except everyone states theirs is clean except for carbon and the coating is a royal pain to scrub out of the barrel!

The 45 barrel (1st picture) has coating in the breach of the barrel and nothing at the muzzle after 100 rounds.

The 9 mm barrel (2nd and 3rd pictures) has the coating at the muzzle end of the barrel after 100 rounds.

The 45 is a PT1911 and the 9 mm is a XDM 4.5

136497136498136499

[HI-TEK]

The 9 mm barrel (2nd and 3rd pictures) has the coating at the muzzle end of the barrel after 100 rounds.

The 45 is a PT1911 and the 9 mm is a XDM 4.5

136497136498136499[/QUOTE]

The warning signs for me, if coating is being deposited/bonded to inside barrel any where, is mainly caused by not adequate curing or not enough temperature or both.
Coating deposited will bond strongly to surfaces due to heat generated by powder burn gasses.
Essentially, it is then cured and bonded with supplied heat, to where it was smeared initially.
My initial suggestions are, ensure solvent test passes with first coat, also smash tests passes with first coat.
When cool, have a look at test parameters, and ensure all pass, before you do any thing else.
If you can, try and simply bake a few coated projectiles at say 210C for 10-12 minutes.
If you are not "heat setting adequately" that is main reason for coating residue deposits occurring.
Longer heat/bake times should fix this, and, may also darken colour, but should not affect bond to alloy and should eliminate re-deposits you are seeing or think what you are seeing.
Additional heat/cure simply ensures complete set of coating.
Afterwards, extra heat from any source, should not soften or melt correctly baked film.

[popper]

Looks like leading to me, happens to my XDs every once in a while, especially with a fast powder like WST. Only time I've seen actual coating in the barrel was using liquid green, PB & pushed to 1300 in a 30/30. Got a tough donut of coating at a tight spot in the barrel and had to pound it out with the cleaning rod, chore boy brush wouldn't touch it.
I don't smash that thin but do it on a paper tower. Rub to see it any fine flakes are on the paper. If so, recycle.
After sizing I inspect for any trace of lead showing - re-cycle.
Most toaster ovens have no insulation so an old folded cotton bath tower over the top and back is enough and doesn't burn. Just don't cover any air vents on the oven. I do a final bake for 1 hr (H.T.ing) for 9 & 40, color changes but it works fine.

[atygrit]

Looks like leading to me

Thank you for the observation because I now think you are correct. I ran a cleaning patch after scrubbing the barrel and I see a few slivers of lead.

[Ausglock]

To: Everyone that reads this.
I, Ausglock, wish to apologise to all and sundry that have been offended by my liberal use of "Naughty" words and/or phrases.
Mr. HITEK will now have to stop producing the Coating formally known as DD Red as this coloured coatings name has Offended people.

Maybe it is my Australian sense of humour that is too "Naughty" for the rest of the free world.
Goodbye.

[Moonman]

Oh Trevor, You're such a WICKED PISSAH!

[Avenger442]

Trevor,
I don't think that "liberal use of Naughty words" only exist in the Australian language. The "rest of the free world" also has it's problems with what is often called colorful (pun intended) language.

:redneck:

[Ausglock]

If you don't see me around here anymore, It is because I have been banned for Naughty word usage.

2 Moderators have "Issues" with some of my "terminology"
Bye bye..

[ioon44]

I really hope you don't leave the forum, with out your input I never would never have got the HI-TEK products to work.

I never was offended by your terminology.

[ioon44]

I am STILL having issues with the coating coming off in my 45 and 9mm barrels. First I tried my own coated bullets then ordered from two manufacturers to see if it was my bullets, and I'm still getting the same issue.

Please give me some ideas on what to look for that could be causing this issue. I am at my whits end on this, I have been messing with this off and on for over a year. I wouldn't complain about it too much except everyone states theirs is clean except for carbon and the coating is a royal pain to scrub out of the barrel!

The 45 barrel (1st picture) has coating in the breach of the barrel and nothing at the muzzle after 100 rounds.

The 9 mm barrel (2nd and 3rd pictures) has the coating at the muzzle end of the barrel after 100 rounds.

The 45 is a PT1911 and the 9 mm is a XDM 4.5

136497136498136499

When I was starting with the HI-TEK I had coating bond to the barrel, I found that Kano Kroil oil would loosen the coating with an hour of soaking then a copper brush.

I like to run boolits .002" over bore da and make sure your dies are not swaging the seated boolits.

[oneokie]

If you don't see me around here anymore, It is because I have been banned for Naughty word usage.

2 Moderators have "Issues" with some of my "terminology"
Bye bye..
If one looks just below his user name, you will not see "Banned", so he has not been banned.
This is a privately owned forum open to the public without cost. We have Terms of Service that everyone had to agree to when they joined.
If he wants to play the martyr and fall on his own sword, so be it. The court of public opinion does not enter into the picture.

[NYBushBro]

In the course of a 264-page thread (which I confess I have possibly read 20%), I can only recall possibly a half dozen posts which use the afore-mentioned terminology.

I only hope that this decision is NOT based on a po$$ible economic 'feud' between powder-coating businesses, bullet lube suppliers (and the 'status quo'), and the HI-TEK method...
Remember, the last time I checked, this country is still based upon the 'free enterprise' system (complete with competitors).

For one, I am not interested in red bullets (whatever you call them), but as a cutting-edge development in cast bullet technology, this alternative method at least deserves the benefit-of-the-doubt (with its attendant R&D by members here) to possibly advance a 19th century technology into the 21st century.

E'nuf said.

[Ausglock]

Not playing the Martyr card and not falling on my sword.

Just can't believe the storm in a teacup.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Is anyone using this in 44 mag?
i just started with a 44 mag and would prefer to run hi-tek over any other lube.
Any suggestions on alloy to work with?
i was thinking my modified WW alloy cut with pure lead so it's about
1.25% Tin 1.5% antimony and some arsenic in there. Then I water drop them.
Any suggestions? Critique? Seems like guys on this forumhabe good luck with similar alloy AC or WD with traditionall lubes. Wondering how hi-tek will stack up.
Maybe step it up to 3 thin coats instead of 2?
P.S. I'm using the liquid gold.
Thanks guys!

[Avenger442]

Is anyone using this in 44 mag?
i just started with a 44 mag and would prefer to run hi-tek over any other lube.
Any suggestions on alloy to work with?
i was thinking my modified WW alloy cut with pure lead so it's about
1.25% Tin 1.5% antimony and some arsenic in there. Then I water drop them.
Any suggestions? Critique? Seems like guys on this forumhabe good luck with similar alloy AC or WD with traditionall lubes. Wondering how hi-tek will stack up.
Maybe step it up to 3 thin coats instead of 2?
P.S. I'm using the liquid gold.
Thanks guys!

Michael
Posted some test for my 44 mag rifle back on page 203. Needed to change the powder and go again to see if I could improve those results.
Three coats of the liquid Hi-Tek Gold 1035 and no leading.

I believe that Trevor (Ausglock) was also about to test a 44 mag rifle load. I think he was going to use the new powders.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Awesome thank you. I'll look for that when I get back to my computer and not just on my phone.
Do you know the alloy off hand? Thanks guys!

[Ausglock]

G'day.
Did a bit of testing yesterday.
I cut 2.6.92 alloy 50/50 with Pure Lead.
BHN came out at 11.4 with a lee tester.
I cast a few 100 Lee 200gn RNFP 44 pills.

Coated once with Bronze 530 then sized.
re-coated with 2 more coats and sized again to .430.
I loaded these over 18gn of Alliant 2400 with Magtech Large pistol primers.
Fired out of a 1978 vintage Marlin 1894 Lever gun.
Chrono for these loads was average of 1677fps.Checked out the barrel and it was shiny clean.

Also tried the same bullet, but sized them as bare lead, Then applied a thin first coat and baked.
Sized again and then did 2 more coats and sized again.
Loaded these with 13gn of W540 (HS6). Chrono went 1440Fps average. barrel was shiny clean.
I am still uncertain if sizing bare 9mm or 40cal will be successful as they are high pressure rounds.
But in the 44 and 45 it seems to work.
Will try some 38Spl pills too and see what happens.

[Shotgundrums]

Bronze 530 is a very hard prototype right?

[oneokie]

Fair warning:
Clean up the language or this thread will disappear.

[Avenger442]

Awesome thank you. I'll look for that when I get back to my computer and not just on my phone.
Do you know the alloy off hand? Thanks guys!

My alloy was wheel weight with 2% tin.

[Avenger442]

Fair warning:
Clean up the language or this thread will disappear.

Consider us warned. As a Christian I have a certain sensitivity to the use of the words Jesus Christ and God. As a 40 year veteran of the construction site world I have had the chance to be the moderator of the speech of others. I appreciate your position. But, I would certainly not like to see this thread disappear. I believe that we will consider this "as an opportunity to expand one's vocabulary".

Just out of interest have you tried the Hi-Tek coating? Would like to hear your opinion of this lubricant.

[Ausglock]

Bronze 530 is a very hard prototype right?

Yes it is, my good sir.
I think HITEK is sending some to the USA.
Check with him.

farewell and goodbye
Toodleloo etc etc.

[oneokie]

Consider us warned. I believe that we will consider this "as an opportunity to expand one's vocabulary".

Just out of interest have you tried the Hi-Tek coating? Would like to hear your opinion of this lubricant.

Excellent point on expanding one's vocabulary.
No, I have not tried any of the coatings. Life and its many issues have curtailed my shooting time.
What works for some will not work for others due to many factors.
It will be a loss for the whole forum for this thread to disappear due to the actions of a few.

[Avenger442]

Excellent point on expanding one's vocabulary.
No, I have not tried any of the coatings. Life and its many issues have curtailed my shooting time.
What works for some will not work for others due to many factors.
It will be a loss for the whole forum for this thread to disappear due to the actions of a few.

Sorry you are stuck with the administrative.

[Shotgundrums]

Joe, Trevor,
whats the story of this Bronze series of coating? Are all HT coatings, powder/liquid/colors, destined to this change? If so, this could be that "cure-all" to the multitude of variables, from imperfect guns to alloy, velocity, bullet-size matters :guntootsmiley:

[Ausglock]

Joe, Trevor,
whats the story of this Bronze series of coating? Are all HT coatings, powder/liquid/colors, destined to this change? If so, this could be that "cure-all" to the multitude of variables, from imperfect guns to alloy, velocity, bullet-size matters :guntootsmiley:

Not sure. That is Joe's department.
I'm going to mix some powder gold 1035 and liquid gold 1035 and try both these with the above mentioned methodology and see how they go.
Stay tuned.
Same bat time, Same bat channel (can I say that without getting in the poo?)

[Shotgundrums]

Ok great!! I look forward to your findings:) Bronze non metallic at this point?

[Ausglock]

The bronze 500, 502 and 530 are metallic.

[HI-TEK]

Bronze 530 is a very hard prototype right?

The Bronze Coatings are not prototypes.
They are made with similar technology as used with Red Copper, Bronzed Copper, Old Gold, Sunny Gold and 1035Gold.
What we have found, that using these new materials, did produce a coating
that was much harder to size, and despite being smashed flat with testing, coating stayed on similarly to all other coatings..
Ausglock, simply tried using Aqualube 5000, to determine effects with sizing.
It simply worked, and these Bronzes were sized much more easily where as not using dry lube almost jammed the sizing machine.
What these tests mean in terms of hardness, and end use results is not clear at this stage.
Coated alloy softer blends, at about 11-12 hardness, coated with these coatings, test firing, all produced excellent results at speeds of around 1600-1700ft/second (correct me if I misquoted Ausglock).

[kweidner]

Very interested in the tough stuff. Did I read you have some going to bayou? I will certainly get some to try. I have a little project that might call for that specifically.

[robertbank]

Bayou has the powder. Ordered from him last Monday and it will be here today. I can't believe the service both from Donnie at Bayou and our two post offices and Custom Officers.

Take Care

Bob

[andre3k]

I'm still getting failures on my bullets. They always pass the wipe test but often times will fail the smash test with. I'm almost certain my issue is temperature control and the fact that I'm using metal cookie sheets instead of the trays made from hardware fabric. I'm trying to run batches of 500 in each oven (250 per rack as seen on top of the ovens). I get my temp readings from thermometers I have on the racks inside of the ovens. Could the cookie sheets inhibit heat and airflow to the bullets which is causing the smash test failures? Here is a pic of my setup.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2v8oh79.jpg

[Shotgundrums]

Trev, was Brick Red ever made a powder? I see Bayou has this color but don't know what type. I'm dead set on the powders. Other than Zombie green, are any others greens floating this way?
cheers

[HI-TEK]

Trev, was Brick Red ever made a powder? I see Bayou has this color but don't know what type. I'm dead set on the powders. Other than Zombie green, are any others greens floating this way?
cheers

Shotgundrums
The Brick red (Red 254), and Zombie Green (both powders) should be both in stock at Bayou.
More are on water but no new green powders.
The other Red, (which caused most on recent ethical turmoil with blog discussions) is FR2K Red. This is a more orange pink type flesh colour.
I dont know for sure if Donnie has stock of this one, and you need to ask.

[Shotgundrums]

Shotgundrums
The Brick red (Red 254), and Zombie Green (both powders) should be both in stock at Bayou.
More are on water but no new green powders.
The other Red, (which caused most on recent ethical turmoil with blog discussions) is FR2K Red. This is a more orange pink type flesh colour.
I dont know for sure if Donnie has stock of this one, and you need to ask.

Ahh, yes..the infamous DDR hahaha!
Well, great. I'll phone him in the morn
thx Joe

[HI-TEK]

Ahh, yes..the infamous DDR hahaha!
Well, great. I'll phone him in the morn
thx Joe


Careful, you will get crucified if you use this stuff....lol lol

[Ausglock]

I'm still getting failures on my bullets. They always pass the wipe test but often times will fail the smash test with. I'm almost certain my issue is temperature control and the fact that I'm using metal cookie sheets instead of the trays made from hardware fabric. I'm trying to run batches of 500 in each oven (250 per rack as seen on top of the ovens). I get my temp readings from thermometers I have on the racks inside of the ovens. Could the cookie sheets inhibit heat and airflow to the bullets which is causing the smash test failures? Here is a pic of my setup.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2v8oh79.jpg

Yep. Ditch the trays and get some mesh. you MUST have airflow with these small ovens.
Those thermometers are horribly inaccurate. to the ebay and buy a cheap digi thermometer with probe K sensors that you can wrap around a tray and run the lead out the side of the door. far more accurate.

[HI-TEK]

andre3k

Your ovens are OK.
Solid trays do not allow even heat circulation.
Best is with open mesh type trays not over loaded.
Even better, fan forced air circulation inside oven, even if you build them your self.

Main reason for smash test fails are
1. Not enough drying,
2. Using too much coating on first coat.
3. Both 1 & 2.
4. Not enough heat, or not enough cooking at correct temperatures.
I will try to explain.
Solvent pass, not a problem. If coating is too thick, & not dried enough, (possibly both combination)
The heat will form super heated steam/vapour between alloy and coating.
The coating will cure OK with heat, but you get poor or no adhesion, hence smash failures.
With heat/cooking/time, the well dried coated alloys all must reach at least 180C then held there at least 5 minutes or so.
Many use 200-210C settings, to quickly drive in the heat and bake to about 12 minutes after placing load into pre-heated oven.
Main and important areas, Dry coatings well, and, only then, bake adequately to set cure and bond coatings.

[andre3k]

andre3k

Your ovens are OK.
Solid trays do not allow even heat circulation.
Best is with open mesh type trays not over loaded.
Even better, fan forced air circulation inside oven, even if you build them your self.

Main reason for smash test fails are
1. Not enough drying,
2. Using too much coating on first coat.
3. Both 1 & 2.
4. Not enough heat, or not enough cooking at correct temperatures.
I will try to explain.
Solvent pass, not a problem. If coating is too thick, & not dried enough, (possibly both combination)
The heat will form super heated steam/vapour between alloy and coating.
The coating will cure OK with heat, but you get poor or no adhesion, hence smash failures.
With heat/cooking/time, the well dried coated alloys all must reach at least 180C then held there at least 5 minutes or so.
Many use 200-210C settings, to quickly drive in the heat and bake to about 12 minutes after placing load into pre-heated oven.
Main and important areas, Dry coatings well, and, only then, bake adequately to set cure and bond coatings.
OK I will see if I can make some trays using hardware cloth. Is there a way to make one that will support 250 200gr 45 bullets? I am using the fan convection setting on the oven at 400 but I will try letting the bullets dry for a longer amount of time. The bullets sit for about 10 minutes before I put them in the oven. They appear to be dry to the touch when I place them in the oven.

[Ausglock]

200 45 bullets per tray is far too many.
I only do about 150 per tray and my oven is insulated with a high flow fan fitted.

[HI-TEK]

OK I will see if I can make some trays using hardware cloth. Is there a way to make one that will support 250 200gr 45 bullets? I am using the fan convection setting on the oven at 400 but I will try letting the bullets dry for a longer amount of time. The bullets sit for about 10 minutes before I put them in the oven. They appear to be dry to the touch when I place them in the oven.

The coatings feeling dry at 10 minutes can be misleading in some cases.
The fact that they feel dry is not guarantee that they are dry completely.
This area has been discussed in great detail, many times on this blog.
Coating/drying success cannot be rushed. Drying can be very variable, due to coating amounts/dilution used, ambient drying temperature, humidity, and air circulation around drying alloy.
A dry skin can form quickly, but then traps small amounts of moisture and solvents below skin.
Heating this film, causes something like a blister, separating alloy from coating by super heated steam. No contact during baking, and coating cannot stick to alloy but elevated skin bakes adequately to pass solvent tests but fail smash tests.

[ioon44]

What is working well for me is to warm the boolit to 25-30deg C before coating then place in heated cabinet for 1/2 to 1 hour at 55deg C. Then bake in convection oven for 12 min at 205deg C with 2kg of boolits on 1/4" screen trays.

[popper]

Al gutter guard - 10 pieces for ~$10. Cut to length & bend up the edges a bit. ~ 150 per tray.

[bosco555]

Yep. Ditch the trays and get some mesh. you MUST have airflow with these small ovens.

Hey there Ausglock...long time...anywhoo...a quick one if I may please...Where do you get these infamous wire trays? Or shall we just make them? However I am still at a loss for the mesh?? Any ideas?
thanks and best to all
bosco

[HI-TEK]

Hey there Ausglock...long time...anywhoo...a quick one if I may please...Where do you get these infamous wire trays? Or shall we just make them? However I am still at a loss for the mesh?? Any ideas?
thanks and best to all
bosco

I tried to scam some from him,a couple of times,..... and no luck.
He is tight as....lol...lol
Hes got the most fancy mesh you can get, stainless steel.

[Ausglock]

Yep perforated Stainless steel mesh.
holes are about 3mm.
Ya gotta know a mate that knows a bloke that knows a bloke that has a sheetmetal business.

I have seperate coating drying trays and baking trays.

[HI-TEK]

Yep perforated Stainless steel mesh.
holes are about 3mm.
Ya gotta know a mate that knows a bloke that knows a bloke that has a sheetmetal business.

I have separate coating drying trays and baking trays.

That would be right.
Some struggling starters are seeking to get one decent tray.
You have drying and baking trays by the dozen, typical capitalist...lol...lol
Should hand a few around as friendly gesture.
Look after your mates...... give a couple away as early Christmas presents.....lol...lol:kidding:

[Ausglock]

Buggeroff.
The Lord helps them who help themselves.
Go make more bloody coating.
I want some gunmetal grey with gold 1035 in it.

[bosco555]

Buggeroff.
The Lord helps them who help themselves.
Go make more bloody coating.
I want some gunmetal grey with gold 1035 in it.

Indeed, however one needs a bit more direction in order to help oneself!! Lol...And as far as living in WA...well..that says it all..lol

bunnings?? Ta muchly! and best to all

[pauly]

G'day from Downunder . [smilie=s:

G'day All , I found some cheap mesh drying trays and stand at IKEA , these are document trays there are 3 trays and a stand for $10.00 Auzzy they work a treat unfortunately just to big for my oven :( as to baking trays a metal work teacher mate made me some out of perforated steel with 2.5mm holes in them and they fit my Breville fan forced convection oven so I have one on the rack in the middle of the oven baking and one on top of the oven preheating , having 5 trays I can put roughly 1.5 kg of bullets in each and swap them out as each one cooks .

Regards Paul . 8-)

[robertbank]

Baking trays for the over are not difficult to make out of 1/4" hardware cloth, just cut to fit. I plan to use the same hardware cloth laid over an old wooden bed frame as a drying bed as well. The HI - TEK product is going to be so much easier to deal with than the PC and hopefully with far better results.

Take Care

Bob

[Maximumbob54]

Disclosure up front, I've still not yet tried Hi-Tek despite meaning to give it a try.

I keep reading the above statement how much easier Hi-Tek is and I don't get it. Using the right PC I can tumble them in the ASBB's, dump them in a tumbler, or just shake them in a bucket and all I have to do is pour them over hardware cloth and bake them. I do take a quick minute to poke them apart so they don't bake together and that is the most tedious part of it. I only need to bake once and I'm done. It's pretty darn easy. As long as you bake them at the correct temp and then let them cool then I have yet to have the PC fail. I really only want to try Hi-Tek just because I want to try all the various coating options.

[andre3k]

200 45 bullets per tray is far too many.
I only do about 150 per tray and my oven is insulated with a high flow fan fitted.

The coating part is the only thing holding me back. I can make about 2400 bullets per hour on my Mark 8 caster but coating them is killing me. I'm trying to perfect the process on a small scale before I purchase a cement mixer and a commercial convection oven. Eventually I want to coat 3000-5000 bullets per batch. What processes are commercial casters using to reliably produce large quantities of coated bullets?

[Avenger442]

Disclosure up front, I've still not yet tried Hi-Tek despite meaning to give it a try.

I keep reading the above statement how much easier Hi-Tek is and I don't get it. Using the right PC I can tumble them in the ASBB's, dump them in a tumbler, or just shake them in a bucket and all I have to do is pour them over hardware cloth and bake them. I do take a quick minute to poke them apart so they don't bake together and that is the most tedious part of it. I only need to bake once and I'm done. It's pretty darn easy. As long as you bake them at the correct temp and then let them cool then I have yet to have the PC fail. I really only want to try Hi-Tek just because I want to try all the various coating options.

I can only reply for me and not for the others on this thread. For me it was the beginning of casting and I didn't want to do the grease/ wax/ .....and didn't want to buy the more expensive sizer to put the grease in the groves. I had bought all of the stuff for the alox wax mix (tumble lube) but had not used it because I was looking for something else. I began reading about the PC process and Hi-Tek at about the same time. I tried Hi-Tek first and it works for me in my rifles. I can't tell you why it would be easier than PC. And I'm kind of like you I might try PC some day. I think that both PCing and Hi-Tek along with other baked on coatings are the alternative to the previously more accepted way of separating the barrel from the bullet. There will probably be something better than them in 10-15 years. I'm sure there are others on this thread that have tried both and can better reply to you. For me it is what I tried first, it works for me and I can't see it being any more difficult than PC.

[kweidner]

formme these work the best. They form nicely to whatever depth you want. I use the whole 3 pack for 1 tray and just bend the sides taller. They are perfect for convection ovens and easily hold 5 lbs per tray. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Backyard-Grill-Disposable-Grill-Topper-3pk/19581290. I probably have 20 or so and use them for my bullets in different stages of production from initial inspection out of the magma to final inspection after sizing