303-25 info and need a bit of help.

[barrabruce]

Got me 303-25 No 4 Mk1 out again today.
Trying to figure out whats what with it.
Some of the shells are hard to get them in the chamber and hard to open the action and extract.
Still using me original super cases. 5 left

O.K. did the stuff the cartridge with something and wack a bit of lead thing to do the throat and bore etc trick.

Hmm interesting.

Mine slugged using an unfired case...should have used and used one...but.
My demensions for this bore using my 1/4 centry old verniers that I've hardly used as a shifter reads.

Base of shell to the start of the taper to the throat 2.250"
New unfired brass length 2.175" plenty room.

brass unfired neck O.D. dia .285" fired 0.290" cast thingo 0.292"

Throat diameter 0.261 ... 0.262"

Bore 0.250"

Lands 0.257"

Base to end of throat = 2.500"

Seems to be no differnece in the web section of the brass but that is where is is sticking on extraction/loading it seems.

Shoulder is right and loose enough for the bore on the new ammo.

Attachment 12264
All super ammo.
The first round is a fired one.
next the lead mold with a new case. shortened cos I thought they may have been a bit long for the breech.
3rd from left factory Super 87 grainer.
right hs fired casse from different batch/eara. Newer red packet instead of the 'old blue ones withe the "sinoxid non corrosive primer"
Hoping it may help some-one else sometime as well.

Have and issue with the extractor I think...But major problem is the rimm thickness /headspace.
Will poke in by hand up to the last little bit of the rim say 1/8" or less. Can tap them home with the extractor and lightly tap out with a cleaning rod.
When you cam the action shut it is hard up and not slick or nothing. With or with out the other accessories such as extractor firing pin assembly.Fired are a bit tighter ..but unfired it still tight. Seems plenty of enough space all round for it slip in by what I can gather.

Note:
Took the extractor and firing pin etc off and it will 1/2 close on fired cases and 3/4 close on unfired case.
The screwwy bit on the end of the bolt is marked "0" which I believe there is a range from 0 to 7 or so for head spacing.

To get the shell out the fist initial 1/4 of the bolt opening is not bad till it takes up the free play and great camming force is needed to extract the case.. Hmmm

Any great ideas and things to do ..check before I take a wet stone to it and grind the end down a bit....or should I attack the end of the barrell.

Any safe and bodgey ideas / thoughts welcome.

Hope this is the right place to post this.

Barra
P.S. I know what I mean.... but hopefully Iv'e put it in some logical sense someone else may understand as well

[grumpy one]

Not sure I understand some of what you've said, but my experience many years ago with a new Sportco 303-25 built on a new Mk III* action might be relevant. First, I found that as received it was very difficult to close on a new Super factory cartridge. However, I persisted and by the time I'd fairly forcefully closed it on cartridges maybe 20-50 times, firing most of them, it became as slick as the proverbial frog snot. Seems the bolt head thread was a bit rough on account of newness, and just using it a bit burnished the thread and made everything just right, and pretty durable as well. It stayed tight despite my experiments with loads that caused difficult cartridge extraction.

The second point is that I did not end up with a very positive opinion of the dimensional control achieved by Super on either their cartridges or their new brass. I overcame this problem by buying their new brass and full length sizing it before I loaded it. I used a Super vice-type FLS die for the purpose. Think I've probably still got it, though I disposed of the rifle about 15 years ago, having never once achieved a decent group with it in 15 years of trying everything I could think of. Among other peculiarities it had about a quarter of an inch of freebore. I suggest you watch your trimmed case length - I accidentally shortened mine and I think it was pretty unhelpful, in combination with the freebore.

[Bigjohn]

Got me 303-25 No 4 Mk1 out again today.
Trying to figure out whats what with it.
Some of the shells are hard to get them in the chamber and hard to open the action and extract.
If the shells are hard to get into the chamber and hard to extract, that would be a sign that they have expanded too large. They would need some resizing of the case body. I'm not aware of what reloading equipment you have so I can not comment further.
Still using me original super cases. 5 left
Fired how many times???

O.K. did the stuff the cartridge with something and wack a bit of lead thing to do the throat and bore etc trick.

Hmm interesting.

Mine slugged using an unfired case...should have used and used one...but.
My demensions for this bore using my 1/4 centry old verniers that I've hardly used as a shifter reads.

Base of shell to the start of the taper to the throat 2.250"
New unfired brass length 2.175" plenty room.
Maximum case length is meant to be 2.185", trim to length is 2.175"

brass unfired neck O.D. dia .285" fired 0.290" cast thingo 0.292"

Throat diameter 0.261 ... 0.262"

Bore 0.250"
Sounds like it's correct size.

Lands 0.257"
About what it is meant to be.

Base to end of throat = 2.500"

Seems to be no differnece in the web section of the brass but that is where is is sticking on extraction/loading it seems.
The body forward of the case head has expanded IMHO to be too large for chamber. Colour the case with a texta and feed it into the chamber a couple of times; this will show you where it is binding on the chamber.

Shoulder is right and loose enough for the bore on the new ammo.

Attachment 12264
All super ammo.
The first round is a fired one.
next the lead mold with a new case. shortened cos I thought they may have been a bit long for the breech.
3rd from left factory Super 87 grainer.
right hs fired casse from different batch/eara. Newer red packet instead of the 'old blue ones withe the "sinoxid non corrosive primer"
Hoping it may help some-one else sometime as well.

Have and issue with the extractor I think...But major problem is the rimm thickness /headspace.
The case is like a tapered pin being pushed into a tapered hole; the further you chamber the case, the tighter it will grip the chamber walls. Rather like a 'Morse' Taper in a drill press; it holds the drill chuck in place quite firmly. The extractor is only designed to extract at a reasonable force, anything excessive grip on the case will cause the extractor to fail to extract that case only.

The headspace issue could be you attempting to force the enlarged case into the chamber while trying to resize the case to fit it.
Will poke in by hand up to the last little bit of the rim say 1/8" or less. Can tap them home with the extractor and lightly tap out with a cleaning rod.
When you cam the action shut it is hard up and not slick or nothing. With or with out the other accessories such as extractor firing pin assembly.Fired are a bit tighter ..but unfired it still tight. Seems plenty of enough space all round for it slip in by what I can gather.

Note:
Took the extractor and firing pin etc off and it will 1/2 close on fired cases and 3/4 close on unfired case.
The screwwy bit on the end of the bolt is marked "0" which I believe there is a range from 0 to 7 or so for head spacing.

To get the shell out the fist initial 1/4 of the bolt opening is not bad till it takes up the free play and great camming force is needed to extract the case.. Hmmm

Any great ideas and things to do ..check before I take a wet stone to it and grind the end down a bit....or should I attack the end of the barrell.

Any safe and bodgey ideas / thoughts welcome.

Hope this is the right place to post this.

Barra
P.S. I know what I mean.... but hopefully Iv'e put it in some logical sense someone else may understand as well

Barra; if you have any real concerns about the headspace, take the rifle to a gunsmith and have him check it out for you. Please check out the following points first.

1. Take one new and unused case if you have one or one 'LIVE' cartridge and with care insert it into the chamber and check the bolt closing and extraction.
   
   If the older cases have only been neck sized in the past; the case bodies will have expanded to a point where they not fit back into the chamber. As I suggested earlier, paint the case with texta and try and chamber it a couple of times. This will show where it is binding.
   
   The expansion will only show up in front of the solid base portion of the cases; approximately 1/4" in front of the rim.
   

Try these and get back to us.
John

[barrabruce]

Lands 0.257"
About what it is meant to be.

Barrel diameter min O.D. of object able to be pushed down the barrell lenght.

All cases are once fired only factory fodder.
New cases are the rounds I aint shot yet.
This gun has fired aproximately 100yrds in its life.
The cow cocky I's got 'er orf gave me a near full packet of emties and a packet of ammo. If was to shoot deer. At most say 150ydrs all up.!!!! He had it in his cupboard for years and the stock varnish was all cracked. I cleaned 'er up a bit but haven't shot it in the 20 yrs Iv'e had it and then only the other week.

I did once take it to a gunsmith who "polished the chamber" but it didn't extract and was no bettera than it was before. By the rime I got to around firing it and being a 1000 kms from the blighter I would a took it back and complained and got me $50 bucks back.Or fixed proper.

Heres the pics of the Texta treatment.
the area worsed effected is about 1/2 inch high and about a 1/4 up for the rim as "bighorn" sumised.
Attachment 12290
Attachment 12291

Was tighter in chamber than without the texta.

Bruce


Oh loading gear for this. had dies for me super simplex but think they ended up with someone else .Never loaded a shell for it.
Have som horady 100grn bullets and they will seat if I don't push 'em in to far an even go in the mag. Well one dummy one at least.

Oh Ohhh I filed a bit off the back end of the case which if'n it twas head space and didn't seem to do nothin.

Bit like me

[Bigjohn]

BarraBruce
The texta cases seem to confirm what I thought; the bodies of the cases have expanded and won't go back into the chamber without binding against the chamber walls. This can also happen with the .303" British.

The cases need to be full length resized.

I have an article in a New Zealand Guns and Hunting magazine on the 303/25. If you are interested I will scan it and email it to you.

PM your email address.

John

[barrabruce]

P.M. sent
thanks may be a great help and source of information.

Bruce

[Frank46]

One thing I see not mentioned was the hardness of the brass. If too soft would tend to give sticky extraction. Frank

[Bigjohn]

Bruce, email sent; it was basically a review of the cartridge and rifle with modern powders.

Frank46 has in my opinion "hit the nail on the head". In my observations over the years, "SUPER" brand brass cases appear to be too soft and expand more than needed.
I have a Martini Cadet in .222 Rimmed using "SUPER" brass, even with mild loads the cases expand excessively in the case body. Most noticable just in front of the solid head portion of the case.

In some circumstances, such as yours, the cases will not fully seat/chamber in the chamber in which they were fired originally.

LYMAN and SIMPLEX made 7/8" x 14 die sets for this cartridge and they may be available through Western Firearms down SYDNEY way. Link included in your email.

On the question you asked in you PM; I would not be doing anymore work to the chamber without having someone examine the chamber with a borescope.

You may need to full or partial length resize your cases every time you reload them. A full length die set will allow you to form new cases from .303" British cases.
I believe the article I sent you indicates that these rifles don't handle accurately projectiles over 85 grains or so. This would depend on the twist rate of the rifling.

Keep trying,

John

[barrabruce]

Thanks Big John Got the email and all seams logical in the symptoms of mine as to others as well.
A bloke as the range has a 303-25 and he can't get his to shot either. 87 grainers...

Found a few more cases.87 grainers ..some were a different batch I think.
Feed in well but hard still a little hard to fully close slowly
Extraction was tight on the "cam" part of opening but extracted well till me extractor chipped off...still worked on most thou.

shot like sh$t about 4-5 inches or more at 100 yds. seated that deep that the tips wouldn't catch on the fingers of the mag unless moved forward a tad.



Mine has "12 twist and 120's will seat well in the case and touch the lands.
Just wondering if the velocity would be enough to stablise them thou.
May look for something maybe a tad lighter but still long enough if they ever made someting.

I know that long throated things like wetherby magnums 6.5 sweedes etc still shoot well with a big jump. maybe they got longer lead in to the gooves or something.

Still trying to see if I can get me old dies back when I can find the bugga home
My forearm has been bedded along the barrell in fornt of the action but the acton is well"free floating" and well gun oiled wood.Dimple hard up on the but secton bit.

Tried some shots with a bit of cardbourd under the lug to free float the barrell but did no better with it.

maybe a couple of wood screws up the end of the stock and in the middle and bedding the action may help and take some of the spring on wobbles out the whole lot.

who knows!!!!

Looks like a slow project and think I may be better off with a 30 30 but time shall tell. Don't want to spend too much on this project but it sounds like a mighty challenge to me!!



One bloke at the range rekons its the taper of the case and the spring in the bolt that does it.

Still a lot of roo shooters had one for when the wind picked up too much for the 222's so they must've got 'em to shoot somehow!!!

I think I saw some
'highland loads in 303-25. wonder how that brass will work.



Bruce

update when something happens next.

Ohh the links good thanks for that.Have to order a extractor now

[hollow-point]

i have 303/243 and 303. all super cases need full -length or partial -length resize in my 3rifles. 303's are p14 and 1942 smle. 243 is 1944 smle. i now use winchester and remington u/p cases exclusively. forget super, they never had the control then and now they are just too old! there are 303/25 cases advertised in our local publications. try some new brass and fresh adi powder. i have 303 new centre-flash loaded factory and they are nearly all split so i will not fire themand will only salvage projectiles.

[hollow-point]

hi, i am in upper S-E(coomandook) on dukes highway. if you could scan and mail the same article i would be most appreciative. thanks david.

[hollow-point]

big john, if i had that cat he could endlessly plink at trucks that use exhaust brakes in town! what make and calibre? cat and carbine? david

[Bigjohn]

G'day Hollowpoint, Nothing like an article with an aussie flavour to bring us aussie's out of the woodwork.

Nice PUMA White Hunter; I had on once; traded it off; now use mostly 'LANTHOIS' Customs; good knives and very sharp.

I have the article already scanned just need your email address to send it to; it would come as an "ABODE" pdf format file. ABODE Reader is free off the net.

The cat and rifle were put together by someone with better skills in photoshop than me; Rifle is a SAKO TRG .308".

John

Coomandook; Yep!, know it reasonable well; used to pass through going to or coming home from ADELAIDE. Now I'm out the other side of town; the coast road is the easier to get to for that trip.

J

[303Guy]

shot like sh$t about 4-5 inches or more at 100 yds. seated that deep that the tips wouldn't catch on the fingers of the mag unless moved forward a tad.

Something wrong there. My 303-25, built on a 1943 Lithgow, shoots anything I throw at it. When the groups went south it turned out to be a poorly fitted scope base. I seat my bullets to fill the neck without going into the "dough-nut". I also lube my loaded cases and more recently have started lubing the bullets by using a 'waxy-lube' wad which I create by dipping the base of the bullet into the molten 'waxy-lube'. the main reason for doing that is to keep the interior of the suppressor waxed to prevent corrosion.

87gr load and 85gr ballistic tips. It's the ballistic tips that I wax dip.


The effects of the loose scope base. It put all its shots in that pattern until fixed.


I nearly forgot to mention - the bore is corrosion damaged near tne breach!

[hornet fan]

Hi guys, I am working on loads for a .303/25 at the moment and came across this site while conducting a search to sort out some problems. The rifle is an SMLE No.1 MkIII*. Barrel is in new perfect condition.

Full length sized "new" super brass and it sized down more than I expected.

Also will try only 85gn-87gn bullets too if you say that is what get the best accuracy.

[MaxJon]

I have a Sporter No.4 that I wish to re-barrel to 303-25. Just got Simplex dies, think it will make a great varmint rifle, with 75-85gn bullets out of a nice heavy SS 1-12 twist barrel. Any thoughts?? TIA!

I now have a Sportco 25 303, looking to cast for it!!

[BigEyeBob]

PPU make new brass in 303/25 , I bought some from Kevin Loveridge in Qld ,nice brass . www.ammoandpowder.com.
Simplex are still manufacturing dies for most of the 303 wildkats , they have thier own website and sell direct to the public.
Just google Simplex dies and it will surface.
I now only use PPU brass for all of my 303 wildkats and 303 reloading ,I tossed all the Super brand ****e I had into the scrap bin and took it to the scrap metal dealer used the money to buy brand new brass.
I shot this three hole group just recently from the bench ,100Grn Taipan hollow point @ 110 yds with my Mauser 96 in 303/25
Coin is a Aussie Ten cent piece for our American brothers


Another group , same rifle same load same day .

Thanks Big John Got the email and all seams logical in the symptoms of mine as to others as well.
A bloke as the range has a 303-25 and he can't get his to shot either. 87 grainers...

Found a few more cases.87 grainers ..some were a different batch I think.
Feed in well but hard still a little hard to fully close slowly
Extraction was tight on the "cam" part of opening but extracted well till me extractor chipped off...still worked on most thou.

shot like sh$t about 4-5 inches or more at 100 yds. seated that deep that the tips wouldn't catch on the fingers of the mag unless moved forward a tad.



Mine has "12 twist and 120's will seat well in the case and touch the lands.
Just wondering if the velocity would be enough to stablise them thou.
May look for something maybe a tad lighter but still long enough if they ever made someting.

I know that long throated things like wetherby magnums 6.5 sweedes etc still shoot well with a big jump. maybe they got longer lead in to the gooves or something.

Still trying to see if I can get me old dies back when I can find the bugga home
My forearm has been bedded along the barrell in fornt of the action but the acton is well"free floating" and well gun oiled wood.Dimple hard up on the but secton bit.

Tried some shots with a bit of cardbourd under the lug to free float the barrell but did no better with it.

maybe a couple of wood screws up the end of the stock and in the middle and bedding the action may help and take some of the spring on wobbles out the whole lot.

who knows!!!!

Looks like a slow project and think I may be better off with a 30 30 but time shall tell. Don't want to spend too much on this project but it sounds like a mighty challenge to me!!



One bloke at the range rekons its the taper of the case and the spring in the bolt that does it.

Still a lot of roo shooters had one for when the wind picked up too much for the 222's so they must've got 'em to shoot somehow!!!

I think I saw some
'highland loads in 303-25. wonder how that brass will work.



Bruce

update when something happens next.

Ohh the links good thanks for that.Have to order a extractor now

[MaxJon]

Awesome stuff, big eye bob! Hope my No4 shoots as good!

[bearfighter]

looking for a load for 75 gr projectile for my 303/25 can anyone direct me to some load data

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My 303/25 is built on an Eddystone P14. Recently I started loading 100gn RCBS powder-coated and gas checked boolits at 2,500 with a load of 28.5gn of 2206 (equiv to 3031)