You're gonna have to post a reference to that!!in one of the very earliest versions of the Bible theres a line where Jesus says he will go down to haties and save those who are there. or something to that effect
You're gonna have to post a reference to that!!in one of the very earliest versions of the Bible theres a line where Jesus says he will go down to haties and save those who are there. or something to that effect
Whatever!
"This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" Ephesians 4:8-9 8
"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners," Isaiah 61:1 (See Luke 4:10)
"As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit." Zechariah 9:11
Isaiah 42:6-7
“I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison." Isaiah 42:6-7
This occured when Christ died and rose again. "Abraham's bosom" the place for the righteous dead was emptied. (We discussed Abraham's Bosom in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.)
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan
It does make a difference to me (and many others) in how God will deal with the unsaved. Death was promised for disobedience, not eternal torment. Had God told Adam and Eve "death" actually meant eternal torment, I certainly think it would have been included in his warning. There is a big difference between death (ceasing to live) and unending torture. To equate the two is ridiculous and would make it that God had lied to Adam and Eve.
The germ for the idea of eternal torment doesn't appear until Jesus taught with a few parables that describe destruction. Why do you suppose the disciples didn't ask Jesus about a never ending physical hell? The disciples did not because they understood what he was getting at: the lost are obliterated like dead branches in the fire. The next "evidence" we see for an everlasting eternal punishment is in Revelations. However, this book is written in symbolism and hyperbole and should be used sparingly for proof especially when you get into weird descriptions. The books of the New Testament that we use to establish doctrine do not present an eternal conscientious torment for the lost. The authors use terms that suggest an end to existence: death, perish, destroyed.
Those who see Jesus' parables as depicting eternal torment for the unsaved don't even take these passages literally. We no longer have Jonathan Edwards preaching a terrifying picture of sinners being roasted throughout the never ending ages. Now we have people claiming that hell will be psychological suffering or a eternity away from the good things of God. Even you yourself have suggested as much. Why is that? Because eternal physical suffering is just too much to fathom (because for reasonable people it seems unfair), let alone suggest God would do such a thing.
Annihilation will bring peace to those who are lost. They will not have to endure the harmful effects of sin,restlessness, etc. anymore. I would rather picture a lost loved one being obliterated than being tortured forever. They will be given peace.
There are many people who "believe" that are not saved (see James). There are those who have accepted the Gospel message as fact, but for whatever reason will not commit to God. I would imagine these people would worry about hell.
I don't know if you've spent more time studying these things than me or not. Maybe, since you're older.
That is using human logic and feelings and understanding to interpret what the Bible has to say on the subject. You have not quoted any of God’s Word to support your position. Any believer here would be happy to mail you a free Bible to read. Please don’t just take our word for it. Read it for yourself. Really.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. It is a fact. No parable identifies the subjects by name. That’s what makes it a... parable.
“If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan
Do you need to be insulting? You think I just sit here making up stuff? No, I have done my share of Bible study.
I did quote Bible passages, not all of them though. Over and over the Bible says "death", "perish" and "destroy." The only way we have to interpret these words is using human understanding. Do you know of another? Somehow people came to believe that these words actually mean eternal suffering. That is very odd and it is certainly reading something into those passages.
Do you realize that when Jesus healed people, and when the way he went about doing it was described, that no two ways were the same? Jesus used variety in his ministry. The parables he told also used a variety of presentations. Just because Lazarus and Abraham were named doesn't mean it was a true story (where do you get this is the criteria?). The story was told to describe the magnitude and peril of unbelief, not give a lecture on the afterlife. This is basic biblical interpretation (FWIW, I learned this getting my degree in biblical studies). Even if the story were a true event, there is no mention that the rich man's situation is eternal.
I realize I will change few minds with my arguments here. I was hoping to prompt some interest in researching the matter. Alas, it is almost impossible to have Christians examine or amend their personal doctrine (at one time this was called a not having a teachable spirit). But you don't have to be rude about things.
I have suggested more than once a better source of information on the matter than myself. I was once like you guys. I was sure that sinners would be tormented in hell forever. My mind was changed. Is there emotion involved? Yes, I feel much better in what I have learned and come to believe.
Last edited by Ickisrulz; 09-12-2020 at 06:40 PM.
No......
"Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"
Disarming is a mistake free people only get to make once...
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change, if he does change then we cannot believe the bible at all, so what would you have? i say nothing. john 3:16 says it very well, part of the verse "whoever believes in him should not perish but have ETERNAL life." that means forever. and yes, that's why Jesus warned us continually about believing in him and why it is so important.
All y'all making this harder than it needs to be. We have 73 posts, Romans is only 17 pages. Apostle Paul describes how you should be. Thus Romans 12.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
>>"for it written..."<<
Where? 16 cross references across The Word of God
Deuteronomy 32:35 for example.
If you are uncomfortable with a God of Vengeance, God of Wrath, reaping the whirlwind, the whole judging thing, Heaven and Gehenna, then you must choose. Ignore the hole in your heart or fill it with the only thing that fits. I do not worry at all, or study much, the afterlife, I am just trying to get out of here alive. I would be glad if you came with me. Thank You Jesus for not leaving me as I was!
so, then, what does "unto the ages of ages" transfer to in your words.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |