New to casting - I want hard bullets with Wheel weights for 2000 fps loads

[Nakihunter]

Ok here are some conclusions I have made but happy to reconsider and get it right. Hence my posting here and asking for advise.

1. I am not able to find appropriate powder coating material here in NZ. Not even sure if "powder coating" is the right term for the dry powder tumbling and baking process on Youtube. Is that Polymer coating? I might just buy the Missouri bullets 340 gr from reloading international if I need to do that - box of 300 costs about US$54 and then I need to pay $90 for export & freight. Still worth it I guess. Hornady pistol jacketed 400 gr bullets cost US$60 per 50 pieces here.
2. I want low recoil ammo. I shot a 470 NE Chapuis once that did not fit me and it really hammered my face. I had a really sore cheek bone for 2 weeks. On the other hand a 600 NE Jeffery full house load of 900 gr at 1850fps pushed me back half a step. I shot my 416 Rigby ok with 400 gr bullets at 2550 fps but found the recoil quite heavy. But I shot the same combination at 2400 fps really well. I found a BIG change in felt recoil and rifle control, particularly off hand rapid fire.
3. Therefore I plan to load Re15 - well established loads - 85gr to 87 gr is what is most commonly suggested as regulating loads. The 75% rule is what the 400 gr cast or pistol bullets give me for regulated loads at lower recoil. Federal ammo is 87 gr Re15 without filler but using 216F primer which are hotter and not available to reloaders.
4. So I plan to use foam backing rod for jacketted bullets with Re15 & F215 primers as many people do. Some do not bother with fillers and others use dacron. (See earlier comment on barrel ringing).
4. My goal is to achieve that without barrel leading. 3 conclusions
(a) Hard cast - wheel weight + 50/50 solder and water quench
(b) Felt wad lubricated to minimise leading (Will foam backer rod filler work for cast bullets?)
(c) Card wad to prevent felt from sticking to base of bullet and throwing the shots wild and also to prevent powder contamination by the lube

This is the theoretical conclusions I have come to so far, even before casting a single bullet or firing a shot. Heck, even before seeing the rifle and holding it in my hands! I think this kind of research and analysis minimises time and effort in achieving my objectives. I hope I am starting with correct assumptions for fine tuning.

Any challenges, criticisms and corrections are welcome.

[Rcmaveric]

I have seen and heard of the foam backer rods used as filler. I have never tried it. I personally try to avoid fillers.

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[Nakihunter]

I did my first cast in my life. Thrilled with the outcome.

I used about 4 kgs of the ingots I made up last week and added on rod of 50/50 solder which was 208 grams. So about 2.5% tin added.

I did it in 2 lots and finished with about 500 grams lead in the pot. I stopped as the flow from the bottom was slow and I was concerned that the bullets may be cooling down and quality may not be consistent.

I might have got the temperature a bit hot as the thermometer started going above 500C

Water quenched.

The very first bullet I air cooled on a towel and it looked great. A bit dull but sharp edges. Threw it back in the pot and started water quenching. Now i can see how bad the other bullets were that I got off a supposed custom supplier!

As you can see - the bullets average 392.7 gr ranged from 395.8 to 389 gr. Variance for sample of 20 was 6.8 gr. Sizes varied from 0.477 to some bands going as low as 0.472. No bullet base was less than 0.475.

[Hardcast416taylor]

You make no mention of fluxing the molten lead either before casting or when the wheel weights were initally smelted down. This is a step to remove any dirt and other impurities from the alloy being cast. The casting temp as has already been stated should be running at or about 700 degrees Farenheit not Centigrade. Another question is, have you ever reloaded cartridges before? My estimation on you aims of what you desire the rifle to perform at is a comparision of an complete novice attempting to fly an airplane. Get help from other casters and shooters before a possible accident happens from an attempt to run before you have learned to walk. For what that beautiful double cost it would be a shame to make a wall hanger of it by damage.Robert

[Rcmaveric]

500 C is really kind of high. Should be more along the lines of 400 C. You really shouldnt have a need to go over 480 C. Nice first cast. You got the mold a little too hot. It cause some craters on the bullet bases. Let the sprue cool a bit longer or use a fan and damp spunge to cool the mold. You want good perfect bases because thats whats gonna give you accuracy.

You really shouldnt need any of the felts, cork, or foam. Fit is king and good fitting bullet wont lead when fired at velocities and pressures within its limits. If you are that worried about leading that you are wiling to risk damaging your gun, then why not just use a gas check? Those guns arent cheap.

If i were you. I would use the search function and read what the other guys on this site did. I wouldnt use a filler unless i have tuned the best i possibly can and wanted to see if that improved consistency and possibly milk that last little bit of accuracy. For a filler i prefer dacron (sacrifice an old pillow). Normally the accuracy i gained wasnt worth the danger.

I used the search function and read several threads were guys got their guns easily regulating. They didnt mention fillers.

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[Nakihunter]

You make no mention of fluxing the molten lead either before casting or when the wheel weights were initally smelted down. This is a step to remove any dirt and other impurities from the alloy being cast. The casting temp as has already been stated should be running at or about 700 degrees Farenheit not Centigrade. Another question is, have you ever reloaded cartridges before? My estimation on you aims of what you desire the rifle to perform at is a comparision of an complete novice attempting to fly an airplane. Get help from other casters and shooters before a possible accident happens from an attempt to run before you have learned to walk. For what that beautiful double cost it would be a shame to make a wall hanger of it by damage.Robert

You are right in that I am new to casting, as already stated.

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

I have been reloading centre fire rifle ammo with jacketed bullet for over 25 years.

With regard to flux, we used paraffin candle wax while melting the wheel weights and skimmed off all the rubbish.

Then I used a small bit (0.5+ inch) of the same when doing the casting - just to make sure all the rubbish was out and as advised by the various books and posts to flux again and to keep scraping the pot sides and bottom.

I am probably trying to fly as you put it, but by holding on to someone who is already soaring !

The goals are realistic as they are being achieved by many. Nothing special or spectacular.

I hear the questions about fillers. For me it is a trade off between comfortable control of the rifle (read recoil sensitivity) and risks with filler. My experience with the 416 Rigby is the point of reference. I was comfortable with 400 gr bullets at 2400 fps using H4350 (AR 2209) and rapid fire at 50 meters giving 4 inch groups of 5 shots. The same combination loaded to 2550 fps was not so good & hence I loaded down closer to original Rigby spec.

With the 470 NE, using 400 gr bullets at 2000 fps and 87gr Re15 (the VC is also 1 lbs heavier) should give me less felt recoil compared to the 416 Rigby

[RogerDat]

Powder coat is a polymer paint but the variety you want is "electrostatic paint" Here is a Google search link to suppliers in New Zealand

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FV1....0.kTrxGJ8gIlw

Paint sticks due to static charge differential between dry powdered paint and object being painted. The powder covered object is then baked to melt the powder into a solid coat covering the object. So you are looking for electrostatic paint that requires baking to apply. They sell application "sprayers" with a charged tip and a ground wire for the item being painted. Bullets are typically coated on metal baking sheet with ground wire from sprayer attached. Then baked in a counter top toaster oven by using tweezers or fine needle nose pliers to place them point up on non-stick aluminum foil.

Some of us will use black plastic air soft bb's inside a number 5 plastic bowl with a lid to shake the powder, bullets, and plastic bb's to coat the bullets. Hence the name "shake and bake". Plastic bb's and bowl will create a static charge in the metal bullet and powder paint.

You might check out the member smoke432 he sells the bags of powder and the bb's and all his powders are tested with the shake and bake method. I think he typically sells 1# which will do a huge number of bullets. The excess powder stays in the bowl with shake and bake so there is little loss. Smoke used to sell sample packs of 3 or 4 colors which can be nice. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...-4320-s-Corner

No idea what shipping is like but he could probably provide better information on the actual product or maybe ship in a quantity that stays reasonable. Has the bb's too.

[Nakihunter]

I ordered the NOE bushing size dies today.

The Powder coat material sample arrived today - Black. I'll try powder coating next week.

I went to a tyre shop and the guy is a keen diver and fisherman and so he uses all the wheel weights. So I went to the scrap dealer and bought 22 kg building roof lead and swapped with the tyre guy for a big bucket full of wheel weights. I think I got 10 kg more!

[Green Frog]

I ordered the NOE bushing size dies today.

The Powder coat material sample arrived today - Black. I'll try powder coating next week.

I went to a tyre shop and the guy is a keen diver and fisherman and so he uses all the wheel weights. So I went to the scrap dealer and bought 22 kg building roof lead and swapped with the tyre guy for a big bucket full of wheel weights. I think I got 10 kg more!

That roofing lead is also getting hard to find around here! I use it for muzzle loaders and when I make precise alloys from pure metals for my cast bullet bench rest efforts. BTW, have you asked around about Linotype down there? My sources for that have about dried up here, but boy howdy, that makes good alloy for hard bullets! I’m a diver too, but you only use so much weight for diving... maybe your tire guy will eventually finish filling out his needs (unless he has a side hustle selling to HIS dive buddies.)

Froggie

[Nakihunter]

What is the source of antimony based lead apart from Linotype 11% and Clipped on wheel weight 4%?

There are is well known company here in NZ which sells lead alloys in bulk but minimum order is 450 kgs! That is almost 16,000 bullets for my 470 NE!

[Rcmaveric]

Range scraps will also have a 1 to 2% antimony. That's what i use to cut my Clip on Wheel weights (50/50 for rifle). Range scraps by it's self makes fine pistol bullets. Reclaimed shot has a lot of antimony in it as well. Pretty high a amount if it is chilled shot 6%, i think. Do not quote me as i am shooting from the hip. A side from those, ordering hardball alloy is all i can name.

I honestly cant tell you what is in my alloy. I do know the BHN's though and can mix and match to create what ever i desire.

[Echo]

Prep the Lee mold. Add 2 oz 50/50 solder for 5 lbs lead. Is this correct for a good mould fill or will the bullets be too soft?

I want at least 2% in my alloy, so I would probably add 3-4 oz 50/50 to get 1.5/2 oz Sn for 1.8/2.5% Sn in the alloy.

[Nakihunter]

Back here after a while.

I got the rifle in hand after last post above. Shot it first on 3rd Aug. I have been shooting it quite regularly - 10 to 20 shots at a time with a friend on his farm. He made up a standing rest for better control

I have now got the rifle regulated with jacketed bullets - 500 gr Woodleigh softs, 500 gr Hornady DGX Bonded & 500 gr Hornady DGS Solids. The left & right barrel target now overlay for a reasonable 2 inch group with 3+3 shots.

The lead cast bullets 400gr with card & felt lubed wads are not shooting too well.

I got some powder coating material from the local Rep of the company - free samples. Very happy with result - baked in an oven. I had to do 2 runs. Shoots much better than the lubed bullets. Far less messy. Just using backer rod as filler cut to compress powder.

I also imported some 340 gr cast bullets from Missouri Bullet Company but made the mistake of not selecting the PC design! They are lubed bullets and now I have to use lubed wads & card!

One question - If I am using smokeless powder like Varget with lubed bullets - DO I NEED to use lubed felt wad or can I just use a card and backer rod filler like I do with jacketed bullets?

[44Blam]

I shoot 400 grn boolits from my 45-70 at about 1800 fps and that is enough for me.
That ends up being about 3000 foot pounds of energy going down range...
I gas check those booits and I also powder coat them. I think you can get some from Smoke and you just need a #5 plastic bowl and airsoft bbs... Just tumble them and bake them in a $10 toaster oven.

500 grn @ 2200 fps is almost 5400 foot pounds of energy. That is gonna hurt on both ends, I'm thinking.

Source:
http://www.ballistics101.com/muzzle_energy_calc.php

[Rcmaveric]

Have you tried shooting them without the cards, wads and fillers? No you dont really need them. If the powder isnt position sensitive then you dont need a filler. Go with a bulkier powder or one designed for reduced loads.

You can take those lubed bulletz and clean the lube off of them. Then clean residue off. Then PC them.

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[waksupi]

I think your biggest problem will be trying to get your regulated barrels to shoot the 400 gr. bullets to shoot to the same point of impact as the 500 gr. How does it do with factory loading with the lighter bullets? That may be a telling test to attempt to see if the barrel twist will be capable of what you ask of the rifle.
I have a friend who was trying to get a new Sharps shooting well with 405 gr. bullets, and they were all over the target. I gave him some of my 550 gr. loads that the rifle was built for, and the group went down to under 2 inches at 100 yards.

[Nakihunter]

Being a double, they have their own unique attributes to regulation & reloading as per Graeme Wright's book on shooting the British Double rifle.

The 75% rule works with 400 gr bullets. I get around 2000 fps and pretty close to bull with Varget - so recoil is much less with 100 gr less bullet weight & 30 gr less powder. Same with jacketed pistol bullets.

My question is if I can use foam backing rod instead of lubed felt wad.

I do not want the base of the cast bullet to melt and lead the barrels. There is about 1 inch gap between powder and base of bullet when I use reduced loads with lighter bullet and faster burning powder.

I also do not want to "ring" the chamber by using inappropriate fillers. A ringed chamber will just ruin a $10,000 double rifle.

[Rcmaveric]

Fillers arent to protect the bases of the bullet from melting. That wont happen and not what causes leading. The pressures will deform the bases and there is a chance the filler can smack into the base of the bullet which is really bad. If that is your fear then use a gas checked bullet.

You do not need to use the greased felt wads with smokless powder. You can use the backer rod without it.

Fillers primary purpose is to create uniform ignition with powders that are position sensitive. An inch of free space isnt that big of deal as long as it has consistent ignition.

Experiment, try and see what happens.

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[Nakihunter]

Thanks for that.

I have got similar advise from 2 others.

I am very careful not to allow any space between filler and bullet base. I ALWAYS make sure I compress the foam filler by 6 mm.

Fillers arent to protect the bases of the bullet from melting. That wont happen and not what causes leading. The pressures will deform the bases and there is a chance the filler can smack into the base of the bullet which is really bad. If that is your fear then use a gas checked bullet.

You do not need to use the greased felt wads with smokless powder. You can use the backer rod without it.

Fillers primary purpose is to create uniform ignition with powders that are position sensitive. An inch of free space isnt that big of deal as long as it has consistent ignition.

Experiment, try and see what happens.

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[sw282]

Hi. l have a NZ buddy l corresponded with. He lives in Blenheim, NSW. A train driver 'engineer' at work. A SASS shooter at play.. Welcome Naki.

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