Coatings toxic breakdown products

[Beagle333]

I have always cured the powder outside. We have had a few threads on it, but the argument "It smells, so it must be bad for you" just never convinced all. But I always have and always will do stinky experiments outdoors and encourage others to do the same.

[jcwit]

Reading most all of the hazards I find the real problem in backing the powder coat is the outgassing of products that can cause reproductive harm.

Do I really want to play with that in my home? Why not, both my wife & I are far, far past the age of that even remotely being an issue!

Now of course I would do it "baking" in the warm months with the house open to the outdoors.

[OS OK]

Thank you for joining and posting this information...and "Welcome aboard!"
The temps. you are citing are well under the temps. developed 'in chamber' and there too is the question of 'how much time' is involved where they are exposed to this temp. before the out-gassing occurs?

Regarding chamber temps. and barrel times, read this post...'The Wizardry of Propulsion'

Thanks again, hope you stick around!

charlie

[dbosman]

Welcome and thanks for the warnings.
I hope, that within ten years, someone will do a properly researched book or long article about powder coatings and some specific brands. IT will be contentious but if the author(s) omit the dangerous ones and specifically cite the safer options it might pass industry review.

[popper]

Anybody ever do toxicity tests on LLA or the other lubes we use? Or burnt powder? I don't sniff glue or cooking PC. We already use 'evil' Pb. Just use normal caution. Diet cola turns to antifreeze too. Elwarpo hasn't listed his pubs. so no way to check out his creds. I don't doubt his comments, I do remember the dirty look when an EPA friend saw the Excide hat I was wearing.

[flyingmonkey35]

He said w/out actual testing there is no way to know. You'd have to test the powders at the temperatures generated during firing to see what the byproducts are. This won't be cheap. I'm wondering if Federal did this w/ their coated bullet line. Due diligence is in order when you're a large company like ATK.

This was done. I will have to find my previous post on this. But powder coat once cured per msds. Will not remelt unitl you hit a temp of 1400 degrees for 15 minutes. So unless you cook off your ar 15 to ths point of glowing and then leave a pc bulliet in the chamber you may have a mess in your hands.

As for a fired round i think the results were around 250- 30p degrees 5 feet from the barrel and rapidly cooling. Based on superslow thermal image testing. By a university

As to gases that it gives off when baking. It is advised to be in a well a ventilated area. Per msds again.

And it is alllways advisable not to put foreign substances in to your lungs.

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[Wreck-n-Crew]

The odds are they are using a coating designed for high temperatures. Silicone or other technologies can make a paint that resists high heat, think muffler/exhaust/ fireplace coatings. standard powder coatings are not designed for high heat/high friction applications.

I'm in the process of finding a more heat resistant powder coat. Also hard enough to stand up to the friction. In your opinion what (if any) powder coats or paints (brands/types) such as polyurethane based or epoxy, would be better suited for the task?

[GrayTech]

maybe not in the gun.
but during the 'wet' stages of curing this could occur much easier.
the 400-f curing [crosslinking] point would be the most dangerous point for outgassing the by products.

This is why I use an extractor fan to vent the gasses released while baking. These do indeed present the greatest risk.

With regards to shooting PC, I don't think there is significant gas production as the PC remains intact and the exposure time is extremely short. I have degrees in chemistry and toxicology, and did consider this issue before. The only precaution I take is installing gas checks after coating so the surface exposed to combustion is not coated.

[NoAngel]

Obviously, there's a world full of educated people ten times smarter than this redneck will ever be but the longer I dwell on this the more it smells like BS. It's ranking right up there with a lot of the other myths like leading caused by the base of the bullet melting during it's trip down the barrel.

No offense to anyone but I'm gonna have to pass on worrying about this.

[badgeredd]

Third: It is nearly impossible to tell if a coating will give off toxic combustion products or not.

Herein lies the problem I have with your comments.

I see you are stating "may", "can", and "could" which are wide open to question.

Without some real research in the properties of the exhausted gases, it is ALL conjecture.

MY opinion...

[BNE]

Obviously, there's a world full of educated people ten times smarter than this redneck will ever be but the longer I dwell on this the more it smells like BS. It's ranking right up there with a lot of the other myths like leading caused by the base of the bullet melting during it's trip down the barrel.

No offense to anyone but I'm gonna have to pass on worrying about this.

My thoughts exactly.

if in doubt, read the MSDS for silica sand. If you take it seriously, you will never go to the beach again.

I am an engineer, and have worked with engineers, chemists, and PhDs my whole career. There is always someone who wants to tell you what you can't do because something might happen.

I dont want to sound un-reasonable, but has any one ever heard of employees in the powder coating industry suffering from these issues? Their exposure would be much higher than what most of us are exposed to on a regular basis.

[MUSTANG]

Questions:

1. What is risk for shooting PC'd boolits in an indoor range. Would seem to be an issue of type of gases generated, volumes, and transference mechanism (ingestion, breathing, saturation through the pores). This is not an insignificant question as many indoor ranges are attempting to limit potential for lead exposure by requiring full jackets, full electroplating, or now something like an PC coating to reduce risk of lead contamination. Are we trading one hazard for another, or ...

2. An analogy to #1. What is the risk of shooting in an outdoor range? One could assume that a Bolt gun would provide less shooter exposure than a gas/recoil operated gun. 2nd hand exposure (non-shooter), similar issue to 2nd hand smoking.

3. More practical question for most on this forum: What are potential product to effectively clean a rifle barrel if PC fouling materializes?

4. What is real risk? there are probably hundreds of millions of Teflon coated pans in use in the USA; yet we see warnings against Teflon in higher heat (500 and 650 degree thresh holds) such as:

If the danger begins when pans overheat, then how hot is too hot? "At temperatures above 500ºF, the breakdown begins and smaller chemical fragments are released," explains Kurunthachalam Kannan, Ph.D., an environmental toxicologist at the New York State Department of Health's Wadsworth Center. DuPont, inventor and manufacturer of Teflon, agrees that 500 degrees is the recommended maximum for cooking.

At very high temperatures — 660° F and above — pans may more significantly decompose, emitting fumes strong enough to cause polymer-fume fever, a temporary flu-like condition marked by chills, headache, and fever. (The fumes won't kill you — but they can kill pet birds, whose respiratory systems are more fragile.) At 680° F, Teflon releases at least six toxic gases, including two carcinogens, according to a study by the Environmental Working Group, a nonprofit watchdog organization. "However, even if those gases are formed, the odds that you're going to breathe enough of them to be sick are low," says Wolke, a point corroborated by several of the experts we interviewed. What no one has yet researched is whether overheating these pans regularly for a prolonged period might have long-term effects.

http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/cook...-safety-facts/

[flyingmonkey35]

Questions:

1. What is risk for shooting PC'd boolits in an indoor range. Would seem to be an issue of type of gases generated, volumes, and transference mechanism (ingestion, breathing, saturation through the pores). This is not an insignificant question as many indoor ranges are attempting to limit potential for lead exposure by requiring full jackets, full electroplating, or now something like an PC coating to reduce risk of lead contamination. Are we trading one hazard for another, or ...


A: significantly less then any type of lube/ grease. As that stuff smokes

Very Small chance of lead vaporising in the barrel.

But proper fit to the barrel stops this.

2. An analogy to #1. What is the risk of shooting in an outdoor range? One could assume that a Bolt gun would provide less shooter exposure than a gas/recoil operated gun. 2nd hand exposure (non-shooter), similar issue to 2nd hand smoking.

A: Less outside then the above answer wind helps bit

3. More practical question for most on this forum: What are potential product to effectively clean a rifle barrel if PC fouling materializes?

A: Pc desolves with acetone so "IF"you have a improperly cured boolit. That left. Smears of coat ( no one has reported this yet!) you can wipe it out very quickly.

Also.

PC once cured is now inert polymer plastic.

For a test. I have done this. Throw a pc boolit​ in your smelting pot, once all the lead is out try and smear the left over coat on any thing. It wont stick to it. I've tried steel, wood and cinder block.

In the powder form you can sprinkle it on your Cheerios and eat it. Not recommend.

You have more to worry about inhaling the gun smoke or casting at improper temps then you do with powder coat.

I did the research when we just started doing this.

Here is a blue pill.

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[NoAngel]

A: Pc desolves with acetone so "IF"you have a improperly cured boolit. That left. Smears of coat ( no one has reported this yet!) you can wipe it out very quickly.

Also.

PC once cured is now inert polymer plastic.

For a test. I have done this. Throw a pc boolit​ in your smelting pot, once all the lead is out try and smear the left over coat on any thing. It wont stick to it. I've tried steel, wood and cinder block.

In the powder form you can sprinkle it on your Cheerios and eat it. Not recommend.

You have more to worry about inhaling the gun smoke or casting at improper temps then you do with powder coat.

I did the research when we just started doing this.

Here is a blue pill.

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Never tried playing with the melted PC but I have noticed remelted PC bullets don't really smell that much and don't put off smoke. Toss in a few lubed bullets and you could film a Cheech & Chong movie.

[K2man]

ElWarpo, I appreciate your information and share your concerns here. Maybe most of the time there's little degradation of most coatings. Maybe not. Maybe if you shoot several hundred rounds a week or month, you just get a tiny bit of a carcinogen lodged in your lungs. Maybe over the years, this causes a rapidly growing tumor to form, and maybe it kills you. It is far better to test and understand all the risk in what we do. I for one would like to see some actual testing done with the Hi-Tec coating I use.


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[NoAngel]

It takes more heat to melt PC than typical bullet lube and you can find find bullet lube left in the grooves on fired cast bullets. If it won't get hot enough to melt off bullet lube, how could it possibly heat PC enough? In the oven? Yeah..maybe. Even then, any fool that sits there and breaths the fumes from the oven deserves what he gets from it.

[Smoke4320]

I heard PC'ing bullets would make your babies be born NAKED.. I have and Mine were

[Vly]

Very interesting discussion.

[mozeppa]

i imagine that during a shot some of the vapor follows the bullet to the target....since i don't plan on sniffing all the way to the target ...i won't worry much.

[garym1a2]

I was dianose with cancer 15 months ago. I always wondered if it was due to something in powder coat or smelting/casting process. Or could it have been from working in EE industy for over 20 years or maybe just being around too many smokers. Never know, but take basic precautions.