primers

[Taylor]

Some time back I had read that winchester T7 primers were the same a regular 209's.Only difference being marketing,now I read the opposite.Can/should these be used in shotshell applications?

Walmart had these on sale for $2.00 a pack..I bought some.

[William Yanda]

Next to bottom line says for Muzzleloading only.

Midway says:
Winchester Triple Seven Primers are specifically designed for Muzzleloading and are milder than typical 209 Shotshell Primers. Milder primers do not force the powder charge forward, helping to maintain consistent velocities and minimize formation of crud rings. These primers are rigorously tested for consistency and sensitivity at temperatures and conditions far beyond the range of normal usage. Winchester guarantees better sensitivity for more positive firing in all guns, consistency in size and quality and stability in extremes of temperatures and humidity.

Technical Information
Primer Size: #209
Primer Usage: Muzzleloading rifles
Notes: These primers are not designed to be used in shotshells, they are for muzzleloading rifles only



That doesnt mean you can't try-I wouldn't expect spectacular results

[Taylor]

Granted,I would not deviate from published load data for plastic hulls.But for brass,one might have some leeway.

[NSB]

"You read", but you didn't say where you read. That statement doesn't mean much. Where did you read this? You can do anything you want, it's your eyes and fingers. As stated, they are milder primers as stated by the people who make them. I'd go on what the manufacturer says and writes rather that some generic statement you read from an unpublished or unknown source. Proceed at your own risk. At best, you're probably going to get inferior loads and you've wasted your time and the other components to save one or two cents a shot. At worst you probably won't blow the gun up or anything, but you'll have loads that aren't as good as they would be with proper ignition. What's that old saying? Penny wise and pound foolish. Good luck on this.

[Taylor]

Now we're getting somewhere.You won't get an argument from me.The whole purpose is to get opinions on this.Now the primers can be used as intended.So they won't go to waste.

It has been awhile now,google search is were my info came from.It's been a couple of years now,so remembering exactly,eludes me.And I can't confirm anything.

[Teddy (punchie)]

If it was the only primers to be had maybe I would try it, but use as it was made for the muzzleloader

[Taylor]

Lack of thought process on my part.But that's were you guy's come in.

[Hogtamer]

Here are some numbers that will make you think before subbing primers...

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

[NSB]

Here are some numbers that will make you think before subbing primers...

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

I'm having a slow day. This has what to do with the OP's question? Splain it to me.....

[Spudgunr]

I'm having a slow day. This has what to do with the OP's question? Splain it to me.....

The fact that different primers can have a 3000psi difference in pressure doesn't jump out at you (and the fact the OP is asking about substituting a primer for which I'm sure there is no reloading data given it is for muzzleloading)? For a rifle at 50,000psi not so big of an issue. A shotgun at 11,000 psi max would not be good to run at 14,000 psi. Though interestingly, crimp depth can have about as big of an impact, yet I don't even see that listed in loading data or talked about. Though maybe they do it at a fairly deep depth and think that if somebody goes a small amount beyond that no big deal, if they go less obviously its less pressure?

As has been covered, this primer, per their marketing, is LESS hot, so likely safe to substitute, but that doesn't mean most will say publicly "Sure, go ahead and feel free to substitute". Particularly true since the reaction isn't always predictable per the published link. The hot primer this time isn't necessarily the hot primer with a different load. So, in some cases maybe these muzzleloading primers are equivalent to a Remington primer, maybe a different load more like a Winchester. If the data you are using has the weakest primer in it substituting is probably not a good idea.

[NSB]

The fact that different primers can have a 3000psi difference in pressure doesn't jump out at you (and the fact the OP is asking about substituting a primer for which I'm sure there is no reloading data given it is for muzzleloading)? For a rifle at 50,000psi not so big of an issue. A shotgun at 11,000 psi max would not be good to run at 14,000 psi. Though interestingly, crimp depth can have about as big of an impact, yet I don't even see that listed in loading data or talked about. Though maybe they do it at a fairly deep depth and think that if somebody goes a small amount beyond that no big deal, if they go less obviously its less pressure?

As has been covered, this primer, per their marketing, is LESS hot, so likely safe to substitute, but that doesn't mean most will say publicly "Sure, go ahead and feel free to substitute". Particularly true since the reaction isn't always predictable per the published link. The hot primer this time isn't necessarily the hot primer with a different load. So, in some cases maybe these muzzleloading primers are equivalent to a Remington primer, maybe a different load more like a Winchester. If the data you are using has the weakest primer in it substituting is probably not a good idea.

Lot's of speculation there on your part. Here's the best answer: If you can't find it in a loading manual, don't use it. Lyman makes the best shotshell reloading manual out there and it doesn't list BP primers for any of their loads. The OP can do anything he wants, they're his primers, his gun, and his fingers and eyes. I doubt the gun will blow up or anything, but I don't doubt that it's a waste of time and money (on the other components) to go very far with this. As a general rule, if you can't find any reliable (that means published from a reliable manufacturer or publisher) source, you're better off not using it. You really didn't offer an answer to the specific question. The link provided didn't answer the question since it doesn't provide any test data using the primers in question. It might be a good guess, but it's still a guess.

[rsrocket1]

Triple Se7en primers are meant for muzzle loaders only and even with ML's should be used only with T7 powder. These primers are intentionally made to be as weak as possible because normal 209 primers tend to cause T7 powder to leave a "crud ring" in the chamber of a muzzle loader. Winchester found that weakening the primers eliminated or reduced the annoying "crud ring" in muzzle loaders when using T7 powder.

The result of using T7 primer in normal shotgun applications will be lower pressure, lower velocity loads. First of all, you ought to be using only published shotgun data for shotshell applications unless you really know what you're doing and there won't be any published loads showint T7 primers. Primers you will see are Winchester, Remington, Federal, Rio, Cheddite, Fio, maybe a few more and they are all different in their energy which is why they are explicitly listed that way. If you are loading on the lower end of the load data and substitute a T7 primer, you may end up with "bloopers" or complete misfires where the primer does not set off the powder properly.

There is a chance that the T7 primer will work because unlike rifle powder, shotgun (pistol) powder is very fast and usually lights off easily but I would strongly recommend not trying out the T7 primers in your shotshells.

[Tackleberry41]

Its hard to separate marketing hype from truth sometimes. Did winchester put research and money into the issue and this was the solution? Or did they just put regular 209s in a different box and charge more money for them? I dont tend to be very trusting when it comes to such things, I remember buying a bulk pack of the cheap Winchester 12ga at Wal Mart, sold as 1 1/8 oz loads, but only had 1 oz in them. I doubt they expected anybody to open them and check.

[rsrocket1]

try 'em yourself and let us know

[Taylor]

I thought marketing too.As Winchester does not differeciate in their primers.For example:they are either LR-SR,LP-SP. No magnum,either larger or small.

I bought 15 packs,5 I will give to my brother for his muzzle loader. Like I stated,they won't be wasted.

[Tenbender]

Next to bottom line says for Muzzleloading only.

Midway says:
Winchester Triple Seven Primers are specifically designed for Muzzleloading and are milder than typical 209 Shotshell Primers. Milder primers do not force the powder charge forward, helping to maintain consistent velocities and minimize formation of crud rings. These primers are rigorously tested for consistency and sensitivity at temperatures and conditions far beyond the range of normal usage. Winchester guarantees better sensitivity for more positive firing in all guns, consistency in size and quality and stability in extremes of temperatures and humidity.

Technical Information
Primer Size: #209
Primer Usage: Muzzleloading rifles
Notes: These primers are not designed to be used in shotshells, they are for muzzleloading rifles only



That doesnt mean you can't try-I wouldn't expect spectacular results

That is what sells you a product. I can't see a company that make's billion's of shotgun primers re-tool for a half million muzzle loading primers. I have a pack of these muzzle loader primers that someone left on the bench at the range and I can't tell any diff.

[Taylor]

So,you are loading them in shotshell?

[RMc]

Taylor,

Depending on how many Win. 777 primers you have, here is a fun load that is sure to work well.

Pick up some once fired Federal Paper Hulls, load 3 drams (82 grains) of FFFg Black Powder, a .125 nitro card, two 1/4" felt filler wads, 1 1/8 ounce of your favorite upland shot and star crimp as usual. Don't try to drop the powder through your loader, instead use a dipper. Lee Precision makes an adjustable shot dipper that works great. Set it on the 1 1/4 ounce shot setting and it will drop very close to 82 grains of FFFg. This combination delivers 1165 fps out of a 30 inch full choke barrel. Published pressures for this load are under 7,000 psi.

Black powder lights off very easily, so any 209 will work.

If you have an old single barrel that does not make it into the field often, this would be the perfect excuse for a squirrel hunt in those Tennessee Hills! I can just see the white smoke drifing through the trees!

By the way, those old single barrels are a cinch to clean up afterward.

[John Boy]

These primers and any others will cause no velocity fluctuation if the hulls are to be loaded with black powder
Because BP does not explode as does smokeless, it deflagrates the powder column

[Taylor]

I have an 1895 NR Davis sxs that I load bp for. My original thought was for 410.But no paper.