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Thread: Army testing new 6.5 rifle

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Artful's Avatar
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    Army testing new 6.5 rifle

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...ed-ammunition/

    New Experimental Army Rifle Uses "Telescoped" Ammunition

    New ammo technology allows for more powerful, compact bullets.

    Defense contractor Textron just unveiled a new rifle at the Modern Day Marine conference. Designed to use so-called "telescoped" ammunition, the new rifle promises a harder-hitting, lighter bullet for America's ground troops to fire. Whether the U.S. military is ready to embrace all the change a new rifle and ammunition would bring remains to be seen.
    Traditional bullet cartridges have a bullet seated roughly halfway inside a brass shell casing, with gunpowder inside the casing. By contrast, the new rifle uses a 6.5-millimeter polymer-cased telescoped bullet. Telescoped rounds feature a bullet completely encased in a polymer shell, like a shotgun, with gunpowder surrounding the bullet in the shell.





    Examples of traditional vs. case telescoped ammunition. US Army photo.


    The result is a cartridge that doesn't use brass, a considerable savings in weight. According the Kit Up! blog, telescoped ammunition is about 40 percent lighter than traditional ammunition. Textron could have channeled this weight savings into making lighter ammunition, but instead it chose to make new ammunition that packs a bigger punch. The rifle—and 20 rounds of ammunition—weighs a total of 9.7 pounds. By contrast, the standard M4A1 (pictured above) and 30 rounds of ammunition weigh 8.74 pounds.
    Textron claims the new 6.5-millimeter round has 300 percent more energy than the standard U.S. Army bullet, the M855A1. That translates into greater knockdown power against human targets, more armor penetration, and longer range. A heavier bullet and more energy would solve a persistent complaint about the U.S. Army's M4A1 carbine—that the smaller 5.56-millimeter bullet often requires multiple hits to incapacitate a target and it lacks the range to make accurate long-range shots. The latter has been a particular complaint in Afghanistan, where long-range engagements are common.
    Textron's rifle is a gas-operated, piston-driven rifle that has many familiar features drawn from the M4A1, including a charging handle and gas block. It features military-standard rails for the attachment of devices such as flashlights and lasers, and what appears to be Advanced Armament Corporation flash hider. The front and rear sights, pistol grip, and buttstock are all from firearm accessory manufacturer Magpul.


    Tellingly, the 20-round magazine is at least as long as a standard M4A1 30 round magazine. While a 30-round magazine may be possible, too long a magazine blocks the user from shooting while prone. In fact, it appears polymer-encased telescoped rounds are actually wider than brass rounds. While each round is lighter, it takes up more volume than its brass-encased peers.
    If that's the case, then Textron's design choice is understandable—if you must carry fewer bullets anyway, you might as well make them hit harder. There are always compromises in small arms design, and the new rifle is no exception. Is losing a third of available ammo and adding three quarters of a pound to the rifle worth a 300 percent increase in bullet energy? Decisions, decisions.
    Will the Army adopt the new rifle and ammunition? The U.S. Army is notoriously cheap when it comes to small arms, and institutional inertia is strong. The -A1 upgrade to standard M4 rifles is only a few years old and conversions are still taking place. We also don't know the cost of the rifle and—more importantly—the ammunition, which will be purchased and stockpiled in the billions.
    Still, if Textron can build a rifle that is reliable and inexpensive, and if the Army accepts the design tradeoffs inherent in the telescoped design, it could be the first all-new rifle design fielded by the Army in 51 years.
    Source: Kit Up!


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  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Digging into the source document: "Currently, the empty weight of the mock-up carbine is 8.7 pounds" and "Textron officials hope to have a working prototype to begin testing early next year, Cole said."

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Artful,

    This NEW 6.5 Rifle seems like more "Military Intelligence" gone astray. How many Billions of dollars will be squandered on this "Project?"

    Adam

  4. #4
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    Well, they will have to overcome a lot of old inertia with the military over this. The military already has a lot of guns and the current ones are being upgraded, so they don't have the budget for it. But maybe the military would get some to play with though. It likely won't go anywhere for a long time, many years. So they have to persevere with this. Only a company with deep pockets could pull it off. I do see one problem in that their prototypes do not have a groove for the extraction of the spent casing. I doubt you could make a blowback operated high powered rifle like that.

    A modernized M14 or AR10 in .308 would work. It would be good out to a thousand meters no problem. They could use carbon fiber, etc to reduce the rifle's weight. Maybe even go with plastic cases for the 7.62 Nato rounds too.
    Last edited by Earlwb; 09-29-2016 at 10:16 PM. Reason: add more information

  5. #5
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    A 6.5mm cartridge. Discovering what the Swedes knew 100 years ago.
    Thermal underwear style guru.
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  6. #6
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    Every few years; someone in the Defense Department resurects the "Plastic Case" for ammunition. Looks like more of the same. As Obi-Wan Cenobi said in the 1st Star Wars movie many years ago "Nothing to see here, move along".
    Last edited by MUSTANG; 10-01-2016 at 09:23 AM.
    Mustang

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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffinNZ View Post
    A 6.5mm cartridge. Discovering what the Swedes knew 100 years ago.
    Exactly. It was more like 120 years though.

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    The French led the way with elongated projectiles (Mine Bullets) and smokeless powder (Poudre B) and the Germans made us go with the spitzer projectile after they adopted it. I guess the US Military would like to be first with something.

    Looks to me like those rounds could easily get loaded backwards under stress or in the dark, even with the visible and tactile ID ring at the front.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 09-30-2016 at 09:07 PM.
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    Boolit Master OptimusPanda's Avatar
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    The old West German G11 rifle would be easier to get working and fielded than this.
    It's only hubris if I'm wrong.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by OptimusPanda View Post
    The old West German G11 rifle would be easier to get working and fielded than this.
    I was thinking of mentioning that, but decided not to so I'm glad that you did. The G11, even with the full backing of German technology and lots of Deutschmarks didn't get very far after the design was finalized. Perhaps the end of the Cold War brought about its demise in 1990, but I was always suspicious of the technology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 09-30-2016 at 09:16 PM.
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  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scharfschuetze View Post
    The French led the way with elongated projectiles (Mine Bullets) and smokeless powder (Poudre B) and the Germans made us go with the spitzer projectile after they adopted it. I guess the US Military would like to be first with something.

    Looks to me like those rounds could easily get loaded backwards under stress or in the dark, even with the visible and tactile ID ring at the front.
    I believe it was the Swiss that introduced the boat tail spitzer to the military - Germans copied them and we copied the Germans.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master



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    My first thought......."Looks like the old Dardick 'tround', except it's cylindrical". And yes, it also looks like a real fumble fest in the dark or heat of battle. Not all good ideas are all that good in real life.

    I also realized that my reloading technique has been wrong for over fifty years.........I should have been seating my bullets "roughly halfway into the brass shell casing".

    No wonder I'm such a lousy shot...................

  13. #13
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    One of the issues with the old G11 caseless ammo was, the brass case helps remove some of the heat, you dont get that in a caseless or plastic ammo. Not so much an issue for most of us, but cook off becomes an issue with lots of sustained fire.

    And we all know how this will turn out, they will squander several million in this research and in the end.....keep the M4 rifle and 5.56 ammo it uses. They just spent millions developing the latest ammo. The same issues keep coming up, the expense of replacing all the rifles and magazines. 50 yrs from now they will have some death ray attached to the M16A12.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy muskeg13's Avatar
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    A 6.5mm cartridge. Discovering what the Swedes knew 100 years ago.
    and the Norwegians, Japanese, Portugese, Italians, Romanians, Greeks, Dutch and French!

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    I see a potential very large problem in the illustration: the 7.62 CT and 6.5 CT look physically interchangeable. If you load the wrong rounds into the right magazine, very bad things could happen (if both rounds were to be adopted). Presumably, the US Army wouldn't make a mistake like that, but they've done some things over the years that didn't look much better in retrospect.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Well unlike the G11 and having it cook off rounds when hot, I think that the plastic cased 6.5mm round will melt in the chamber and get stuck.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Going to 5.56 opened up the path to cycling all the way back up in bore size, one improvement after another.
    If I lived another hundred years maybe I'd get to read the reviews on the caseless recoiless 20mm's.

  18. #18
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    Why don't they just use one of the tried and true 6.5 or 6.8 rounds that are based on the 5.56, and save millions that they could use to convert the current rifles? What am I thinking...this is the Federal Government....that makes WAAAYYY too much sense.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    US smallarms procurement seems to work like British government, alternating to left and right of the decade-to-decade style we want. That works with progressive changes in society, but in this case there is going to be a week when every soldier in sight has something new in his hand.

    They seem to have about caught up with the 1895 Navy Lee. It may be that the polymer case is self-consuming, which would limit it to gas operation. As to heating, it is the rounds which miss that heat up a barrel, or all engagements would be won and lost at once. It could even be that improved gas systems have permitted lightening the bolt to the extent that it can fire with an open bolt. Or perhaps most of the chamber is in the bolt, and that groove is for extraction. That might even permit changes of bolts to substitute for the changing of barrels.

    It seems inconceivable that a rifle or machine-gun could work on the split-chamber principle of the Dardick system. Those rounds were of non-consumable plastic, probably nylon, and of rounded triangular outside cross-section. One side matched the inside of a large cylinder, and the other two the recesses in a rotor which was fed from a box-magazine. It was made in .38 ad .22, the latter with ordinary rimfire cartridges inserted in the Dardick triangular... er... thing. The system is such a natural for submachine-guns at the very least, that I think it must have been found unworkable at pressures equallying the 9mm. Luger round.

    I think the cylindrical shape would lend itself to box-magazines which turn a corner from the horizontal, like the Krag, or something like the MG42 saddle drum. It may be that the intention is to supply the round only in magazines, or in disposable chargers which will only fit the magazine the right way around.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Noone stumbled upon the 300% increase in energy thing?
    Well the 5.56 SS109 does 1300ftlbs according to Wiki.
    So thats 3900ftlbs for a 6.5, going with the swedes 160gr that means a V0 of 3315fts.
    Well theres a first for everything and even the good old Swedes didnt do better than 2560fts in their Mauser, and that from a looong barrel.

    So its a 26 Nosler on steroids (more like a 6.5-378 Weatherby) in polymer cases from a carbine length barrel, that'll be the day!!!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check