Throwing your Ramrod onto the ball

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Tried this out today but first I loaded it normally and with my upper body weight, leaned into the ramrod as usual to compress the powder. This works out roughly to around 70lbs of pressure on top of the ball.

The only mark on the face of the ball is from my short starter.


Next I did lifted the ramrod 12" off the charge and in the way of throwing darts, dropped it down the bore with some force behind it The old theory is that if the ramrod bounced, the ball was fully seated. I've tested this (Some years ago) with a ball 3/4 of the way down the barrel, completely aware it was no where close to being seated and guess what? It bounced! Where this theory came up, we'll never know.

Bouncing the ramrod to seat the ball consistently on the powder charge certainly is unattainable because there's not enough weight in the ramrod to seat a patched ball, nor is there any consistency because you are throwing it down the barrel with an unknown, inconsistent, pressure with your hand.



And in end, all we did was turn a round ball, into an off balanced semi wad cutter ball. Here's the same picture, only color adjusted to show the damage.

[JWFilips]

Geeze! Seat the ball like it has been done for 200 + years! A firm push on the rod feeling it all the way

[RoyEllis]

If you're only here to make adversarial posts such as this, an obviously a thinly veiled attack towards a video of 2 other members.....perhaps you'd be far more comfortable back on your own forum that you advertise via signature line. Maybe it's just me but you seem to be dancing on the thin line of violating Cast Boolits T.O.S.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

No arguing at all. Just showing you guys the difference of a nicely seated ball VS an abused ball.

Not a whole lot going on here so if you can't offer anything to post and show, that's your problem. I on the other hand had some stuff to show today.

Im getting ready for a bear hunt and decided since the rifle was clean, lets see what it looks like after ramming that ball like a 1950's walt disney movie

[waksupi]

Nothing wrong with showing the damage that can be done from careless loading practices.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I got a real neat range rod to do some testing with next time I am out on the range. It has a charge height indicator which shows you if you are on the powder charge or not. This will be a neat and easy way to seat the ball 1" above the powder, throw the ramrod down and check with the range rod to see if it even moved. This will simulate a crud ring thats catching the ball up in the bore.

[Old Iron]

I got a real neat range rod to do some testing with next time I am out on the range. It has a charge height indicator which shows you if you are on the powder charge or not. This will be a neat and easy way to seat the ball 1" above the powder, throw the ramrod down and check with the range rod to see if it even moved. This will simulate a crud ring thats catching the ball up in the bore.

A simple "mark" on your ramrod would serve the same purpose.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

You'll see why the range rod will be better when I take some pictures.

[OnHoPr]

I think it is a good post. If a number of newer shooters see it they may try different loading procedures which may enhance their accuracy which might have a more ethical effect on a deer shot at. Maybe you should have SEOed the title a little better for that purpose.

Yea, that is what I was taught back in the '80s with my new Traditions 50 cal sidelock. I learned a few things in the next couple of years. Then in late '90s all guns/bows/tools stolen, so I ended up with a TC Encore 209. I still had the mold so I cast and shot balls out of it. A PRB will shoot good out of a 1:28 twist, it just takes a bit more fidgeting.



Here are my Lee .490s. If you notice the one upper center with the starter ring on it. That is just about all the damage that happens to it on loading, maybe a touch more pushing it down the barrel. Then just a gentle firm push onto the powder to know that it is seated. They shoot fairly decent on a good day. Then somedays they curve like heck, but I found out why when I looked into the mirror wondering when I found out, I had Marty Feldman eyes that day.

Since the Encore is an inline with faster twist the Lee 240 gr and a Harvester sabot goes in it most of the time for general purpose hunting since it gives quite a bit more range.

[bubba.50]

yer message may well be a good one worth hearin'. but yer smug, belittlin', condescendin' way of presentin' it as "the only way" and "how ignorant you people have been all yer lives" can be off-puttin' to some. not me 'cause I grew a lot of tough hide at an early age.

not sayin' that's how ya meant it, just sayin' that's how it comes across to some.

[Omnivore]

I've noticed the difference between what all the manuals say, and the fact that so many people use the ramrod as a hammer. By the way; a relatively lightweight "hammer" can easily apply hundreds of pounds of peak pressure, so your technical description there is lacking. How heavy is that ball and with how much force does it strike it's target? It's all about velocity.

Is it just me or do the before and the after photos of the ball look the same? They look the same to me.

Don't forget the shape of the ram rod tip. If it doesn't fit the shape of the projectile, then you're certainly re-shaping the projectile, no matter which method you use, unless it goes down with very little pressure. On the other hand, who says there is an ideal projectile nose shape?

We who load cap and ball revolvers, or metal cartridges, or we who size lead bullets, using a seating plunger or top punch that doesn't match the shape of the bullet, know very well that the bullets aren't shaped the same after seating, because we can easily see them.

I re-shaped three percussion revolvers' loading plungers for flat nose bullets, and so of course when I load round ball with that plunger they always end up as flat points. They still shoot OK though. Who says a flat nose round ball is a bad projectile?

Shoot any bullet shape you want, but understand that you're re-shaping it upon seating unless the seater matches the shape exactly. Then again if you're hitting your targets with the desired effect, who cares about any of this?

Anyway, I though the main idea was to get consistent compression of the load, from shot to shot.

[Omnivore]

I might add that a guy I've come to know on line (he runs the capandball channel on YouTube) loads his rifles by tossing the ram rod. His military rifle team just won the MLAIC championship.

Also, some of the steel ramrods are very small in diameter, with a threaded end which you can't shove on without injuring yourself, and the seating tulip at the business end. The issue ram rod in a Remington Zoave comes to mind, since I have one of those. If you're using it as issued, I believe you have little choice but to use the rod as a hammer. I'd be leery even of using a wooden short starter as a ball end for shoving on, with the rod being as pointy as it is. Does anyone know if these thin steel military rods came with some kind of hand protector to use in the shoving process, or was everyone expected to use the rod as a hammer?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

The difference is very obvious in the pictures.

How much difference in accuracy, we won't know that until I do some shooting, but one thing is for certain. It does not seat the ball any harder on top of the charge, especially when one has to lean into the ramrod to get it down the bore with a tight patch combo.

Thats the main point here. Bouncing the ramrod on top of the projectile.

[Dryball]

concerning loading pressure, didn't someone make a ramrod or device that measured pressure so you could compress your powder with consistency?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

yeah that would be the muzzleloaders precision packer.

[rfd]

thank you for schooling me yet again, jon, in your both thinking and ways of seating a patched ball. however, i'm gonna continue to stoopdily bounce my concave hickory tipped ramrod so there's no need for you to waste yer time scolding me any more because clearly i'm as dumb@$$ as they come for not seeing the light of the images you've posted, nor the wisdom of yer superior thought process. i'm sorry that i'm just an old fogey what don't know sh!te from shinola and just too set in my old and thoroughly inaccurate muzzleloading ways.

[JSnover]

Why not wait for some accuracy testing before getting our skivvies all knotted up?
I don't know if it was the heat or what, but it seems like a lot of CB members were in a foul mood this weekend.

[historicfirearms]

The first and second photos look very similar to me. Even the shape of the casting void are identical and in the same orientation on top of the ball. The patch looks different, so it's not the exact same picture, but that is odd that the casting flaw would look identical.

When I was shooting a lot of muzzleloaders, I had better accuracy by bouncing the rod on the ball a few times. I think the reason was I got more consistent powder compression and hence more consistent ignition. I'm sure it damages the projectile more, but the accuracy was still better for me.

[bedbugbilly]

I have no dog in this fight . . but am scratching my head over why anyone would feel the need to bounce a wood ramrod on a patched round ball after seating? First of all, there isn't enough weight in a wood ramrod to do much of anything when it is bounced. If your are worried about the ball being seated where it needs to be . then do what's been done by many for may years . . . mark your ramrod to show the ball is fully seated. Using more than one charge size . . .then mark your ram rod for each charge . . . or your range rod . . whatever.

The only time that a ramrod would possibly be needed to be "bounced" is when shooting such long guns as rifled muskets . . which shoot a minie ball and have a metal ramrod. I have shot literally thousands of rounds down rifled muskets and it has always been a common practice to seat the minie and then bounce the metal ramrod. In such shooting as N-SSA, it is common practice as you are shooting timed relays and shooting multiple rounds in quick order - thus fouling build up in your bore so you do it to make sure your minie is seated tight.

On a patched round ball rifle . . . and every rifle is different . . . most will run a spit patch or similar down between shots to keep the fouling build up to a minimum . . .thus making it easier to get the next patched ball down the barrel in a smooth and easy fashion. If you are taking a quick "second shot" and it's a little tough to get the patched ball down, yes, you sometimes have to use some quick up and down movements on the ramrod when ramming home . . we've all done that. But as already mentioned . . . and it's common sense . . . do it the way it was done for the past 200 plus years - a smooth downward movement on the ramrod until you feel the ball seated and then move on.

Everyone has their own "thing" . . and I guess if you feel better about bouncing the ramrod . . . then go to it . . . but it's not necessary and if anything, it's a "Hollywood notion". But as is often said . . "some folks make great efforts to complicate the obvious". The key is to be "consistent" when you load and to seat it firmly on the charge.

As far as "misshapen" balls from bouncing the ramrod . . . today's muzzleloading shooters look at things in a whole different light than our ancestors did. They are so wrapped up about "accuracy" and how every little thing might affect it, that they forget about the tradition of muzzle-loading shooting. Some worry about making sure each powder load is exactly the same as the previous . . each ball weighs exactly the same . . .in fact . . each ball is perfectly round. That's fine if that is "your thing". However . . . and I'm not being critical of anyone on this . just remember that for those that are more on the "traditional" side . . . most of the balls shot by our ancestors were cast with a "bag mold". Sprues were cut with the cutter on the handle and were pretty "rustic" to say the least. Yet they worked just fine for them whether they were shooting to kill game or shooting in a friendly "match". In essence, I doubt very much that any "damage" to a round ball that has had somebody "bounce" the ramrod on it is going to affect accuracy anymore than a dimple put on it by a short starter.

Many years ago, I used to sit and watch a particular shooter on the line down at Friendship shoot a half stock percussion rifle. He was strictly a "target shooter". He had a wood mallet that looked like a custom turned gavel. His ball was so tightly patched that he never was able to push it down the barrel with a easy movement of the arm . from the time he placed the ball on the patch on the muzzle, he used a mallet . . to seat it in the muzzle, to hit a shot starter . and then to hit the range rod he used to seat the ball. Some of us watching him usually ended up in a discussion about it as we watched hi shoot He was an O.K. shooter but nothing that ever allowed him to place. One time, I asked him why he used a mallet and his reply was that to get good accuracy, you needed a tightly patched ball. I let it go at that. I often wondered if he ever thought about the damage he was doing to the ball while he was whacking on it and what it looked like by the time he got it seated.

In the end, everyone has their "own way" . . . but while we think we have greater technology and can come up with "new ways" to do things . . . . we have a lot to learn from our ancestors who maybe didn't have all the technology, but they learned by experience. My grandfather that I remember very well . . . and he was born in 1867 . . . had a half-stock Plains style rifle in 45 caliber. He cast his balls from a bag mold - kept them in a little leather sack along with a tin of caps. His patches were kept in the patch box - the rifle still has some in it and they appear to have been greased with probably mutton tallow as he raised sheep. His powder he kept in a small glass jar that that once held Marishino cherries (sp!) that he kept in his pocket. Pretty low tech . . . but from stories I've heard, he had no problem hitting what he was aiming including a dog at well over a 150 yards away from his back porch which was getting in to his sheep and killing lambs. I highly doubt he worried about all of this stuff.

[curator]

Would ball damage be less or none if the short starter and ramrod's face matched the curve of the ball? I have always made my own short starters with the working faces exactly matching the curve of the ball. This allowed me to use very tight ball/patch combinations for better accuracy without deforming the ball in the loading process. I also ground the ramrod tip as well and used a range rod as large in diameter as smoothly slid down the bore. When I was really serious about loading compression, I brought a bathroom scale to the range and placed the butt of my rifle on it when seating the ball, applying 30 pounds pressure. On the few occasions where I used a CO2 ball discharger to unload the gun, the balls so loaded were near perfect, only showing a ring where the patch was compressed in the rifling, and no damage to the face except a rounding of the sprue.