My old Martini .303

[Keith]

Having recently started Blackpowder Paper Patching with the help of this and other Forums, my eyes turned to Smokeless PP. I have read threads here by 303 guy and others and thought I might give it a go.
The only rifle I could find that may be suitable is this old Martini I was given as a kid 50 odd years ago.
It was a .22 RF then with a rusted out barrel.
I cut it off and made a short rifle from it.
Recently I bought a brand new greased up No 1 SMLE H stamped barrel and fitted it.
The profile fitted the original wood perfectly, so this is what I will use.


Keith

[DIRT Farmer]

Looks good, and gives me an idea of what to do with mine. I have wanted to have the barrel relined but that is a much better plan

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The barrel looks fine for the job. The .303 Martini was originally made with barrels identical to the Long Lee-Enfield's. The action looks like a composite, though, with the long lever model and a short lever from an ordinary gun. I like the look of that much better, and with modern .303 brass you shouldn't need any extra leverage. But you should check whether the breech face is exactly at right angles to the bore axis.

[leebuilder]

Nice rifle!! I hope it groups for you!!
nice piece of history, would see them around years ago. Not so much now. I have two 22s with i guess it would be the cadet action and are prized rifles in my collection.

[Keith]

The barrel looks fine for the job. The .303 Martini was originally made with barrels identical to the Long Lee-Enfield's. The action looks like a composite, though, with the long lever model and a short lever from an ordinary gun. I like the look of that much better, and with modern .303 brass you shouldn't need any extra leverage. But you should check whether the breech face is exactly at right angles to the bore axis.

It was converted to a .22RF way back when.
When I converted it to a .303 I thought I would have to change the breech block to centrefire.
I compared breech blocks with a .303 Artillery Carbine I had and they were the same.
Investigating further showed the lever lugs inside had been altered so the BB did not come up so far.
This allowed the firing pin to hit the rim of the RF.
I bought another lever at a gunshow but it still slots into the socket in the butt the same.
The butt and forend wood show the same checkering so must have been done at the same time. Even though the butt is broken I want to keep it as is.
URL=http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/shooting/IMG_1500_zpsavvzoq4r.jpg.html][/URL]

For the Kiwis, it is stamped W. H. Tisdalls, Christchurch.
This is or was a Gun Dealer there.

Keith

[saint_iverson]

Did this start as a 310? Or was it originally a 22lr. Dad had one of those 310s in a 218bee,fun fun fun gun/action to play with, also had a scope side-mounted, so about as accurate as you could make a single shot!

[Keith]

This is the full size Martini action, not the Cadet.
I don't know if it was an Enfield or Henry to start with.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It was converted to a .22RF way back when.
When I converted it to a .303 I thought I would have to change the breech block to centrefire.
I compared breech blocks with a .303 Artillery Carbine I had and they were the same.
Investigating further showed the lever lugs inside had been altered so the BB did not come up so far.
This allowed the firing pin to hit the rim of the RF.
I bought another lever at a gunshow but it still slots into the socket in the butt the same.
The butt and forend wood show the same checkering so must have been done at the same time. Even though the butt is broken I want to keep it as is.
URL=http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/shooting/IMG_1500_zpsavvzoq4r.jpg.html][/URL]

For the Kiwis, it is stamped W. H. Tisdalls, Christchurch.
This is or was a Gun Dealer there.

Keith

Got him! There are various other references to WH Tisdall in Google, but this one is from 1915.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...P19150203.2.71

The SMRC were the Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs, who changed their name to the National Smallbore Rifle Association around the time miniature rifles got larger than ordinary ones. Bonehill converted many ex-military Martinis to their specification, and the Stevens 44 also enjoyed some popularity until the Francotte/Greener small Martini action arrived. I don't know if Bonehill sometimes substituted a special rimfire block, or if Greener (who certainly did) also did it by reducing the lever lugs.

Very likely the "original" short lever was added by Bonehill at the time of the conversion, and a butt to match unless there is evidence of a filled-up recess in the wood for the long-lever retaining catch. SMRC shooting was all or nearly all from the prone position, in which the long lever would be inconvenient. There was plenty of surplus rifles and parts at the time.

The trouble is, simply lowering the block also changes the angle of the breech face, and I don't know if they milled or filed it square again. It is worth checking up on this, as I don't think it would be dangerous or even much affect accuracy, but it might reduce brass life with full .303 loads. One way, when the barrel is removed, is to use a 90 degree setsquare on the action face and a steel rule small enough to rest its end on the block face, and see if they line up. Or you could stick layers of gummed paper to a new case-head until you see if it is more squashed flat by the block on one side than the other. Since you have two blocks you could drive two firing-lin sized pins into a piece of wood. and see if the rest of the blocks line up when they are placed breech-face down with the pins in the firing-pin holes.

Yes, your receiver is a MkIV military rifle, the Martini-Metford, and it is possible that it is now on its fourth chambering. Some (not all) were made for the .402 cartridge of 1886, which really was as good as black powder military cartridges get. Then they found that they had little choice but to adopt a smallbore smokeless magazine rifle. So those Martinis were modified for the .577/.450 cartridge, principally for the Indian Army. Others were made for it from scratch. It is possible, though I don't know, that some ex-.402 Martinis were among those converted to .303, although I have seen only the straight-backed earlier Martini actions in this role.

[barrabruce]

Should a large martini that had been converted to 303 take a full load 303 or was it the lower pressure round first bought out.

I can find an old martini 303 with shot out barrell .

If keith will let me know where he got his new barrell I would to play too.

Barra

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The briefly used black powder loading for the Lee-Metford, at least with a fouled bore, give about as high pressure as cordite, although it fell off faster as the bullet travelled up the barrel. A British military Martini which hasn't been impaired in any way should be good for any military or commercial .303 load. This is one of the firearms which the Belgians copied rather well, and I haven't seen any Belgian Martini which inspired mistrust. But I haven't seen all of them.

Ways in which a Martini might be impaired could include grinding or sanding the sides thinner to remove pitting, or removing a barrel by means of a metal or wooden bar through the receiver. If some member of the intellectual classes does this, it can start cracks in the sides, just behind the receiver ring. A .577/.450 probably needs the firing-pin tip and its hole reduced in diameter, but a professionally done .303 conversion probably doesn't.

Some excellent heavyweight .303 barrels were made by Parker-Hale and others, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone in the US is sitting on a trove of these which he doesn't find it worthwhile to advertise. These would be chambered very like the correct SAAMI specification, to which most reloading dies are made, avoiding the oversized chambers sometimes found in takeoff barrels. The early long Lee-Enfield barrels and First World War SMLE are likely to be better than some No4 chambers.

Note that it isn't simply a matter of screwing in a new barrel. The Martini threads are shorter, so you would need a chamber reamer. A 7.62x51 barrel for the No4 (they weren't intended for earlier Lee-Enfields) could surely be rechambered for something interesting. But the Martini needs a rimmed case. You would need a good cartridge book to calculate what can be done, and drawing up the 7.62x51 and other rounds on squared paper is the easy way to judge the feasibility.

I don't know what are the problems of exporting and importing barrels. I would guess lots and lots, since even blanks and liners have just become harder to export from the USA. Fultons of Bisley are the leading authority on target .303s in the UK, and at the very least they could probably tell you if they know of any US dealer who has barrels. It's a helpful industry, and one in which people tend to know what others are doing.

http://www.fultonsofbisley.com/

[Keith]

Should a large martini that had been converted to 303 take a full load 303 or was it the lower pressure round first bought out.

I can find an old martini 303 with shot out barrell .

If keith will let me know where he got his new barrell I would to play too.

Barra

I got it many years ago from a small country gun shop that was having stock take and selling off old stock.
I think I got the last he had.
Keep looking , something may turn up.

Many thanks to Ballistics in Scotland for the info.
I index my cases so hopefully this will take care of any BB problems.
Putting a square on the heads of my fired cases and rotating does not show any variation.
I have only shot 175gr CJ,s so far.

[Keith]

I have a large box of commercial hard cast boolits that I had tried , but was not happy with the performance.<br>
I ran them through a .309 sizer and patched them with 2 thou paper.<br>
They fit nicely into the unsized fired case neck of .316.<br>
When I get time I will load a few to try.<br>
I have been using 2213sc for CJ,s so will start with that.<br>

URL=http://s939.photobucket.com/user/123rover50/media/shooting/IMG_1505_zpsekehyhjo.jpg.html][/URL]

[303Guy]

I have one of those cases opened to 375 as in 38 Hawkins. It has that notch on the rim.

I can find an old martini 303 with shot out barrel .

I have a barrel for Martini that despite being shot out (or because of it) shoots paper patched boolits real well. I've just let a Martini pass because I would have to drive too far to pick it up. Pity.

[Keith]

I notch the rim as I index when loading the chamber.
Just in case the Breechblock is not square.
I do it with my Rolling Blocks too but don't know if it makes any difference.
303 guy, which part of NZ are you in? Did you notice this old girl was sold by Tisdale in CH CH.

[303Guy]

I'm in Auckland. I did notice.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Many thanks to Ballistics in Scotland for the info.
I index my cases so hopefully this will take care of any BB problems.
Putting a square on the heads of my fired cases and rotating does not show any variation.
I have only shot 175gr CJ,s so far.

Thanks for your thanks. It sounds fine so far. It is still worth making sure that the breech face, rather than the resulting brass, is square to the bore axis, though. Brass that comes out square may not with an oily chamber, or a different hardness of brass. If that ever happens, sizing by any conventional method wouldn't square it up.

[Keith]

Well that did not work.
I wont bother showing the target as it looks as if a shotgun hit it.
Tried 2213sc and 2206 but no difference. I was wondering if the hardcast is too long.
Should I get a Lee C309 160R , 170R or 180R and try softer cores ?

Keith

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There might be some information in the way the group is distributed. If the shots are strung out in a particular direction, and especially if they "walk" in that direction as the barrel heats up, it is most likely to be a bedding problem. If the same bullets are in different positions in the group at different ranges (i.e spiraling paths twining around one another like loose string), it is likely to be bullet imbalance.

You can test the latter by shooting with a mid-range card just above the aiming-point, so that the bullets' trajectory send them through it. If bullet-holes are on the left at mid-range and on the right on target, it is an air-spiral problem. If the bullets are in the same positions but the on-target group is twice as wide as the mid-range one, it is something else. If you only have a range so short that the mid-range trajectory isn't high enough, you can shoot through a mid-range sheet of cellophane instead.

I see you have a broken head on the cocking indicator/sear axis locking screw. Here is a website I have found very reliable, which can supply a replacement. I'd check first that it fits the MkIV, but I expect it does. Their castings section is also well worth looking into.

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalo...NRY_Parts.html

[303Guy]

You might try seating those further out. As far out as it takes to make them actually engage the rifling.

[Keith]

At the length shown the rifling just marks the paper. Any further out the paper starts to wrinkle and leaves the boolit in the chamber when I extract the case.
I have ordered a Lee C309-160R to play with first.
Ballistics in Scotland. The wood was a bit loose so I packed it where the bands are and its tight now.
I have it shooting Sierra MK,s into a 100yd group that is 2' wide by 1 1/2" high ATM. Thats about as well as I can shoot without a scope.
Thanks for the link too.

Keith