Rather than using a drop tube I have found that placing a charged case against the top of my vibratory tumbler for a 10 count will settle the powder better and more evenly than a 24" drop tube. I am not a long range shooter rarly shooting beyond 300 yards, but at that range on a good day these loads will go in under 8". In addition I don't crush as much powder with compression. Some day I want to try these loads on paper at 600 to 1000 and see how they hold up.
I believe it was Paul Matthews that wrote in one of his books about doing the same thing, but he settled the powder and then compressed it also. He reported higher velocity and said it sounded like a modern centerfire when it went off.
NRA Life Member Since 1981
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"-- George Washington
II Corinthians 4:8-9. We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroyed."
Psalms 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Wish I could use that technique but it plays bloody hell with duplex loads!!
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
While 'getting ready to' jump into BPCR, I considered both methods. I laid one of those vibrating engravers on a sponge pad and held cases against it for various periods. It seemed to work well, but I had no drop tube (at the time) to compare against.Originally Posted by KCSO
The engraver's vibration speed is adjustable.
CM
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
I have read others doing this, I haven't but am tempted to try so far I have been using a drop tube 40" long works good but I really haven't been doing this that long to know any difference.
Thanks Ken.
Ken.
Be nice if it was better, but it could be worse
That is a good tip KCSO. Another thing that works pretty well is a fish tank pump attached to a Dillon. Helps keep from bridging and makes for real accurate loads when loading BP.
Yer pard,
Howdy
There's a pretty good discussion of this topic right now over on bpcr.net; lot of different thoughts and ways of doing it (compressing powder). No ones hostile yet, so you can just read it, maybe learn something from it and then do what you like.
McLintock
I've been loading 45-70 now and have just change to a Lyman drop tube. The previous tube was a length of copper pipe (plumbers type) approx 40" long. I immediately noticed a difference in the settling of the charge between the 40" and the 24". As I also compress my charges they now require extra effort to compress for seating of the projectile. There has also appears to be an effect on the grouping of the shots on the target.
It looks like I will need some time and a batch of cartridges to do some further testing. eg what effects each change has on the accuracy.
John
I did a little test last night and loaded up two batched of ammo. The first batch was drop tubed into RP cases with 68 grs of Elephant FFg and a thin cardboard wad seated. the second batch were settled with 5 seconds on the vibrator. and the wad seated. On average the vibrated wad was 15 thou lower in the case and required that much less compression. I will shoot them side by side this weekend and see about accuracy and group.
KCSO
Do you suspect that when you viberate the powder charge that the fines end up on the bottom near the primer flash hole? And if they do, what effect will that have, if any, on the ignition of the charge? Maybe if you had a clear tube, put the charge in it and viberated it, you could see if the fines were on the bottom. It will be interesting to see the velocity difference and/or accuravy difference, if any, in two charges that weigh the same, but having different methods of compressing the powder. I'm looking forward to your report.
Last edited by Black Prince; 05-12-2006 at 08:55 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
Has anyone done any experimentation regarding how much powder settleing is achieved with various lengths of drop tubes? Mine is 36” and I wonder if there would be any disadvantage to reducing it to 24”.
I understand at one time some people tried using an over primer wad to prevent powder from clogging the flash hole, but it was not found to be a significant improvement.
Have mercy.
A haw, haw, haw, haw, a haw.
A haw, haw, haw
I have a rather protected range and can quite often catch really good conditions when testing ammo.
When I was shooting BPCR Sil, I tried drop tubing with a 30" tube (slowly dribbling the powder into the case thru the tube) and also tried just dropping the powder (Goex and Swiss) into the case and using a compression die to end up with the same powder column height. There was NO difference in accuracy nor in SD. So, I just drop direct from the measure into the case and compress with a wad over the powder. The amount of compression depends on powder lot and brand (have gone as much as .350" with Goex and as little as .85" with Swiss). I use what shoots best. It takes MUCH less time to load than dibbling thru a drop tube.
Dale53
Talking about fines in the powder. I always had to screen Goex and Pyrocrap. I would get a large amount of fines. Swiss seems to have almost none in the can so I don't bother with it.
When I shot competition with muzzle loaders I would notice a change in accuracy as I got near the bottom of the container. I was actually going from FF to FFF and at the bottom, FFFFG.
As for settleing, I don't think it matters what you do, just so you do the exact same thing for every case. Drop tube, vibrator or right from the measure. As long as the effect on the powder when compressing is exactly the same, everything will work. Where you get into trouble is when one case is settled way more then another before compressing.
Well now, by golly that makes sense thar 44 Feller.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
Why the switch from a 40" to a 24"?
I use a 40" 1/4" copper tube drop setup and it works REALLY well.
I tried vibrating the cases, but, didn't see enough of a difference from the drop tube to bother.
Vibrating a drop'd charged case actually loosens it up, the opposite of what I have found.
Just my observation. I might very well be wrong (and full of sh*t).
The change in droptube length was to make it easier to handle when pouring the powder. I do not have my setup completed for reloading the BPCR yet (A new reloading room is on the drawing board). The tube is not yet mounted and must be held in one hand while pouring the powder. It would be wiser to make up a frame to hold the tube and resume using the 40" copper tube.
I agree with your observation that vibrating the powder seems to loosen it up rather than settle it in the case.
But, hey, these are some of the trials of life, we live, try things and learn from our mistakes and the advice of others. Thank you for your input.
John.
Last edited by Bigjohn; 06-08-2006 at 12:07 AM.
Got good results vibrating charged case with 3/8inch all- thread, about 4 seconds.
Very gentle, so it may help you duplex loaders, too.
After that experiment, I filed notches along the edge of the square stem on my old-timey adjustable powder measure. Handy, effective, settles 80 gr. of Pyrodex P about 3/16 inch or more in a 40-caliber case.
If you'd rather, try filing on a stick of brass key stock or extremely dense wood. Notch the corner, not the flat face. You can scribe a nice regular spacing by pressing a sharp, coarse file or all-thread against the corner of the square stem. Then give each mark about 5 strikes with a triangular needle file, get "all same-same," then deepen and shape notches with round or triangle file.
For 40 caliber, about 3/32 inch spacing with V-notches is OK. Try finer pitch on small cases. Try 1/8 inch or more with half-moon notches on Snider and Martini Henry size cases, for a deeper hit at each notch.
Give yourself about 2 to 4 inches of notches and play the case like a fiddle, and you'll see the powder column drop dramatically.
Once you decide on the routine, you can just barely start the card wad in the case neck to prevent spills when working in the wind.
Results? About 5 in 1.5 MOA at 100, 10 in 4 inches at 200, consistent hits on 30 -inch disk at 800 when wind and mirage were merciful. Using lightly thumb-seated paper patch bullets with flask-poured Pyrodex. Shooters more diligent about case lengths and conditions will probably do a bit better.
Good luck,
Rusty Hammer
KCSO,
What were the results of this? Did you ever get time to test it out to see if there was anyything different about them?
Greg
NRA Life Member
"Those who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety are not deserving of either liberty or safety." - Ben Franklin, 1776
Vis Sis Mis!
I use an over primer wad of newsprint and it definately makes a difference in group size. I'm shooting Swiss 2 F in a 40-65. Obviously YMMV.
The difference between Swiss and Goex is worth the extra bucks to me. Easier to clean, very consistant granulation, less fowling, and seems to be easier to develope loads with it. Then again maybe I was lucky the first couple times out with it.
Bob
GUNFIRE! The sound of Freedom!
I have loaded for several years now and I use Goex FFg in a 45/70 cartridge. Yep Swiss is better from what I have seen from other shooters but I use Geox. I use a 24 inch drop tube and pour in 73.2 grains of the lot I have now. Each new lot will change the amount I use to get the best group. I pour each load over a 6 second period down the drop tube. then I place a wax carton wad and newspaper wad over the poured load and just seat them on top of the powder column. I then use a compression die to reach a compression measurement of .338 inches before bullet seating.
I seat the 520 grain bullet using a competition die to reduce bullet run-out. Cases are Winchester with Winchester Large Pistol Primers. At 200, 300, 385 and 500 meters I can shoot MOA when all the conditons are right.
I shoot BPCR Silhouette all season long and my rounds are very accurate. All it takes is a lot of testing time to find the right load for your gun.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote