Another Questiion for Paper patching Gewehr 88

[Klaus]

Hi Gent`s,
i`am new to this Forum

i was already reading here for some times ago and decide to sign in to share and ask for different topics

i was able to bought a Commision Rifle 1888 Amberg 1891 in a good condition.
Now i ve been looking for a Cast Boolit Load.
Slug the Bore with a result of 316/319 dia.
The Rifle has the S Stamp and have had seen some service in Turkey.
My first try with a Lyman 311466 Loverin Design patched up to .325/6 and a charge of 7 grs HP 38 and BE are promised a good start on 50m
After this first trial i order the Lee 324/ 175 Mould and load them as cast with lubed with Lee Alox but results not as good as with the 311466
I got a Custm Mould basicly Made for a Kropatschek drop cast with 8mm. Patched to 325/6. load are the same as above.
On 50m the Loads are good not a hole in hole result but ok.
With 7 grs BE i do a trial on 100m. Groups open up but ok for a first try.


Next Step on 100m
I load 8 grs BE / also 11 grs of Lovex D036 / Accurate 5 and / 18 grs of Lovex D060 / Accurate 5744.

but the groups ob Bullet Impact open up over the complete Target.
Bulletholes are a clean round hole no flyers.

It ssems that all loads with other Powders as BE or HP 38 are not successful in my case
Only BE and HP 38 are able to get a group.

I do a further try with copying paper and patch up to .321.
Results with 7 grs BE are similar like the results i got with the Airmailpaper i patched to .325/6.
i was not sure but think about that the copying paper will be not strong enough to save the bore from leading?
Now i was looking for a .321 resizer and will do a trial with Airmailpaper wich looks like much stronger.
My Alloy is 4 kg softlead (Rooferlead) and 1 Kg Linotype

you info will be appreciated

Klaus

[yeahbub]

Greetings, Klaus! It's interesting to me that you are having similar results that I have recently. After considering what you wrote, I believe this may well be a problem of insufficient pressure. My usual load in 8x57 is 22-25gr of Alliant 2400 with a heavier boolit (311041, 175gr) and accuracy is good. The 311466 is 155-160gr in your alloy and the thin driving bands (Loverin) are very easy to engrave. Mine are patched to .325-.326, which is the maximum the throat will allow.

When I go to the recommended load of Reloader 15, accuracy is poor. I have found that accuracy improves considerably when the loadings approach those intended for jacketed bullets and pressures are increased. Apparently pressures are too low with the recommended loads for use with paper patched boolits. Indeed, my early accuracy with the recommended start load of 15gr of 2400 were also unremarkable. Your current load of 7gr of BE tells me BE is a fast pistol powder (HP38 certainly is) and pressure is in the range agreeable to your patched boolit. Your loads for slower powders may not be high enough. AA 5744 is certainly slower than 2400 and I need 22gr of 2400 for good accuracy. A load of 18gr of 5744 seems very low. With 5744, is there much unburned powder in the barrel after the shot?

I occasionally use the 311466 and have good results, usually cast of wheel weights and the BHN hardness is 11-13. I expect that your alloy is a bit softer and would be excellent for hunting.

[Klaus]

Greetings back to you Yeahbub,

thx for your answer,it`s the first i got in this Forum.
In time between i received my .321 Lyman Sizer and resize some PPW Bullets from .325/6 down to .321
Also a batch from my Lee .324/ 175 grs. load them with 7.2 grs BE.
Tomorrow i will run a test on 100m.

Unfortunately i was not able to buy some 2400 or Red Dot. I was loading HP 38 and HS6 for a long Time.
Change to Accurate,the same stuff called Lovex here in Germany , because it is cheaper and burns cleaner.
But i can not see any advantage in precision on papertarget.
I will follow your advise to raise my 5744 Load up to 24 grs at first. By the way i found no unburned Powder in the Barrel with the 18 grs load but very poor accuracy.
With 7 grs BE or HP and a 6 o Clock hold on the 6 er Circle the Bullet impact are in the lower 8/9 Circle on 50m.
I will take some Pics about my Stuff and post it here next time.

regards from Germany

Klaus

[Nobade]

I have found universally poor accuracy using paper patched boolits and light charges of fast burning powder. By far better results have always come to me by using a case full of very slow burning powder. Of course you must choose it wisely so as to not overpressure the rifle you are using it in. I also get much better results using ball powders compared to stick types.

One thing that has shown some promise for several rifles has been to use polyester fluff as a filler over lighter charges of powder. It seems to protect the boolit and help, but I still get better accuracy using naked cast boolits compared to paper patched ones at these lower speeds/pressures.

-Nobade

[Klaus]

Nobade,

sounds very interesting with the slow burning powder.
what kind of powder do you use here?
did you use any gascheck with the slow burning Powder
i use no gaschecks with the BE or HP 38. and nacked Bullets.

Hope that my PPW Bullet will match with my .321 size...

Klaus

[Nobade]

Hi Klaus,

I use a lot of military surplus ball powder designed for use in the 50 BMG and 20MM Vulcan cannon. WC857, WC860, and WC872. I do not know what is available where you are, and I would be extremely careful with loads like this in an 1888 rifle. You certainly don't want to hurt it. But with careful selection there should be something available that will work. Basically the slowest ball type powder you can get.

I do not use any gas checks with paper patched bullets, just lead and paper.

-Nobade

[yeahbub]

Some photos would be good. It saves much explaining.

Nobade's method of using a case full of powder seems to be popular with a lot of people. I do that only in .357 magnum with 2400 under a 158gr. Mine are very snug in the case with just enough crimp to straighten the case mouth bell. I find I can taper crimp some without clipping through the patch, but this requires making sure there are no sharp edges on the case mouth. Spinning them and working the case mouth with medium steel wool to radius the edges left after trimming works well.

[Klaus]

i`am back with some results

went to range on saturday morning with some Lee 324/175 and some PPB. All are load with 7 grs BE and resized to .321.
Distance was 100 m.

my results are not successful with this load at given distance but have a look for yourselfe

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2cba7a06.jpg

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3d9d6f6f.jpg

the first Target are for 100 m the Bullet holes at the 9 / 10 er Circle are from the Lee all other are from the PPB.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/...ps72477c8c.jpg

the second shows a 50m Target with PPB and 7 grs BE only

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/...ps864fbb8c.jpg

what is showing promise on 50 m altered at 100m dramatically

next time i will try other kind of Powder

regards Klaus

[303Guy]

I have had success with paper patching by developing a load that would disintegrate the patch at the muzzle. When the bore polished up a bit I needed to increase the powder charge to get the patch disintegration. I was using quite soft alloy - soft enough not to 'pluck' the sprue off.

I notice some folds in the boolit castings. This could indicate boolit irregularities which would not do accuracy any good. It's just a variable that you need to eliminate. Also, if the alloy is too hard with slicks, the paper cannot grip the core so you could get some paper slip which may cause wrinkling of the patch. I have photo's of this somewhere.

[Klaus]

Hello 303 Guy,

sounds a lucid explanation.
i use soft lead for my BPCR Cartridges but change to a harder alloy for the smokeless 8x57.

here some pics of my slugs







here an example jacketet Bullet wich stuck in the Barrel while 7 grs BE are not enought to push it throug reliable but a good proof of Barrel Diamensiones







as mentioned before i will do a new trial with Accurate 5477 or slower Powder next time.
one more Question did you have got some experiences with Red Dot ?

Klaus

[yeahbub]

Good photos, Klaus.

303guy also noticed the wrinkles in the casting. These are defects which can go deep into the casting and the boolit may also not have consistent dimensions. This usually indicates a mold not yet up to operating temperature. I usually preheat the mold by setting it on top of the lead pot, covered with aluminum foil and left there for ten minutes or so. By that time, the mold will be very close to the alloy temperature and seamless castings with fine mold details are much easier to produce. If the mold is hot enough, the boolits will look frosty, but this is not a disadvantage. These days, I look at frosty boolits as an indicator that my castings are now of good quality. This is reflected in consistent weight and dimensions.

That is an interesting design. Your twisted tail patches also look nicely done, but may be a bit short. Is the nose diameter of the casting the same as the bore diameter? I ask because with a soft alloy, the nose may obturate when fired and result in unlubricated lead on steel contact. My usual practice is to cover every part of the boolit which might contact the barrel with paper to prevent any possibility of leading. This will also prevent the nose from deforming off-center during acceleration. Such an imbalance will badly affect accuracy. I have included a link to a previous post which may provide some ideas: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...t-the-paper-up, post #16.

If your usual load will allow a jacketed bullet to be stuck in the barrel, I would say they are very light. With slow powders, I usually begin with charges near the start loads for jacketed bullets of the same weight. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has data which includes fast propellants, including Red Dot. I have not used it in the 8x57 so far.

[Klaus]

Yeahbub,

thx for the link ( very informative)

you`re right i have use some slugs with wrinkles hints but the most are without them because i use some slugs wich are cast prior the alloy and mould arrived the correct temperature. i preheat the mould the same way like you .

The bulletnose is under borediameter and i patch the explicit lenght on the Slug.
After your advise i will try to patch a bit larger to cover the nose.

with given lengt of the set bullet in the case i can close the bolt easy without any resistance and the paperarea touch the rifling. ( markings made to proof this with black marker) at this lenght the bottom of the slug will be around 0,078 inch deeper as the neckarea in the case.I be afraid to set the Bullet much deeper because the Powdergas will hit the sides of the slug and not the bottom only.
Will it affect the Slug as i imagin about it?.

Klaus

[yeahbub]

I think your patches will be okay. I have not noticed any difficulty with the boolit extending below the neck on any of the patches I have recovered. In any case, the paper over the heel of the boolit will always be exposed and I have never seen evidence of burns there. I have only found scorched paper patches from undersize boolits in a schutzen rifle when the boolits didn't expand to fill the rifling and leaked on their way down the barrel. In cartridges I usually seat them so I have noticeable resistance when closing the bolt so they are positively centered in the throat. They are always less accurate when I seat them so the bolt closes with no resistance. This has been true of any kind of cast boolit I've shot from a rifle. It seems to be a universal truth with cast boolits, bare or paper patched, that they are best solidly centered in the throat in front and centered in the case neck in the back, to assure they are started straight. Mine are patched to be able to just enter the throat, so they will be swaged .001 - .0015 smaller when they enter the barrel. In a .30-06, the groove diameter is .308 and the large end of the throat is usually .310, so my boolits are sized .309-.3095 so I can use the throat to center the boolit. Military throats are usually longer and somewhat larger, which gives paper patched boolits a wider range of diameters which will work. For the 8x57 (.323 groove diameter) I recently experimented with, boolits as large as .326 have no trouble entering the throat. This also helps to fill the case neck, which is often oversize from expanding in the oversize military chamber neck. I size the case necks down a little in a Lee collet die so they hold the boolit firmly, but it would be nice to have the boolit diameter which fills the unsized neck be the same as the best diameter for the throat. My cases would last forever if I didn't have to size them.

By the way, my molds are all .311-.314, so for patching for 8mm, I use two wraps of .004 paper on a .311 boolit which results in a .326 diameter. This seems to work well. It would be nice to see what results I would get with a .318 like yours. Two wraps of .002 paper would result in .325, which sounds like a good place to start. I have to patch to the desired diameter because I do yet not have a correct sizing die for .325.

[Klaus]

I will do some more trial and take pics to show the result.
the next step is a higher load with ACC 5477 about 26 grs or so and with Acc No.5 in the 11 - 14 grs
Also with Bullseye between 7 - 9 grs.
all with PPB sized down to .321 and as wraped to .325/5

let you know...
Klaus

[Klaus]

Hi Gents,

just for Info

unfortunately i was not successful with my PP Loads in 8mm Mauser.
All Trials are failed and the Bullets Impacts scattered all over the Papertarget.
Only a soft Load with 7 grs BE or HP 38 are in the Black.
So i gave up and sell my Mould to anybody who like
Looking for a Greaser like Saeco 081 next time


cheers
Klaus