Tell me why....

[Col4570]

This is a Barrel that failed under Proof test.As an illustration of what can happen with excess loading.

[Walter Laich]

got a link to a series of pic where a Savage bolt action ML blew. Graphic pic of what happened to his hand.

I think of it each time I go out to reload

Walt (still with all 10 fingers)

[M-Tecs]

Currently there are two types of muzzleloaders. The most common are black powder and black powder substitutes only. Smokeless is not safe in these due to design and material shortcomings. The design of the cap or primer system is not compatible with the higher pressure of smokeless loads. The same for the material used for barrels and breech plugs. The material is normally a leaded type of mild steel that is fine for black and sub but definitely not suitable for smokeless.

The second type are the smokeless type muzzleloaders like the Savage 10ML II or the semi-custom rifles like:
http://badbullmuzzleloaders.com/
http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/
http://www.performancegunworks.com/B...leloaders.html
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/...zzleloader.htm
http://www.prbullet.com/
http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-...leloaders.aspx
http://www.swinglock.net/home.php


Good place to learn about smokeless ML’s
http://www.sav10ml.com/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm
http://www.smokelessmz.com/
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

[Wilkie]

So I've been doing a lot of reading and research on smokeless and Holy Black. I agree with a lot of the previous posts. From what I can gather BP is very inefficient at making gas when it burns. Lots of material in the powder does not get turned into gas. I've seen efficiency of producing expansive gas of around 20%. Smokeless is super efficient at turning into a gas-close to 100% of the material turns to gas. Also, for the most part smokeless produces gobs more pressure when it is a compressed load. (There are exceptions in handloading but even these compressions are slight compared to ramming a bullet down a barrel with a ram rod) BP is very tolerant of compression and increases pressures slowly. Using a smokeless powder in a ML safely would require a precision with loading that is impossible due to the nature of how projectiles are loaded. If you are dumb enough to load smokeless in a ML the pressures of seating the bullet don't raise in a linear fashion. It's almost exponential. I'm not even convinced there is a safe point with any smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. The pressures that are created when using smokeless in a ML can exceed safety levels even for a modern rifle, little alone a cheap barrel made in Spain(which is where mine was made) So the take home message is NEVER use smokeless in a Muzzleloader!

[Wilkie]

By the way. Thanks for the feedback on this question. I love this forum!

[Hickory]

A little bit. To be clear I will NEVER load with smokeless. I just want to understand what pressures the ML endures vs. my other weapons....I can't find any real info on pressures.

I believe this is one of those "live and learn" situations in life we often hear about.

[M-Tecs]

Also, for the most part smokeless produces gobs more pressure when it is a compressed load. (There are exceptions in handloading but even these compressions are slight compared to ramming a bullet down a barrel with a ram rod) BP is very tolerant of compression and increases pressures slowly.

The only thing correct in your post above is to never use smokeless powder in a muzzle loader rated for black powder only. The rest of it at best is misinformation.

With a ramrod you are hard pressed to get sixty pounds compression. In a loading press you can generate a thousand + pounds of force.

Compressing smokeless have very little to do with the pressure of the load http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/compress.html

Black Powder in a confined space (pressure vessel) will max out at about 36,000 PSI. I don’t know what the max is for smokeless is but I have seen tests as high as 179,000 psi.

Using a smokeless powder in a ML safely would require a precision with loading that is impossible due to the nature of how projectiles are loaded .

The original target guns of the 1880’s – early 1900 where breech loaded rifles with false muzzles loaded through the front to increase accuracy and precision. Look up Harry Pope rifles and accomplishments. They were also using smokeless in some of these. Today's smokeless muzzle loading crowd is using full formed bullets (no sabot) with incredible accuracy.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...arry-pope.html

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com...ling-pope.html

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....-bullet-sizing

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/Ya...num=1149608940

If you are dumb enough to load smokeless in a ML the pressures of seating the bullet don't raise in a linear fashion. It's almost exponential. I'm not even convinced there is a safe point with any smokeless powder in a muzzleloader .

These folks would disagree with you.

http://www.sav10ml.com/
https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles...der_10mlii.pdf page 14 for smokeless loads
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_ML_FAQ.htm
http://www.smokelessmz.com/
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....-muzzleloading
http://badbullmuzzleloaders.com/
http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers...r-700-rem.html
http://www.dsscustomguns.com/custom-...leloaders.aspx
http://www.chuckhawks.com/william_ball.htm
http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/rifles.html
http://www.richardscustomrifles.com/...zzleloader.htm
http://www.performancegunworks.com/B...leloaders.html
http://www.swinglock.net/home.php
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

[XTR]

You can shoot smokeless in a Savage ML, or in a Remington with a barrel made for it, but put it into your TC or Knight and you're gonna blow it up. There are a lot of people who shoot smokeless MLs. (self) BUT, unlike loading a cartridge there is really no capacity limitation to keep you from being stupid, then again if you pour 70 grains of Unique into a 45-70 case you're gonna put on a show when you drop the hammer on that too.

If you go to http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/ there are actually a whole lot of pressure traces on smokeless loads in Savage MLIIs

If you feel that you are not able to adequately measure and pour powder you need to leave smokeless MLs alone. As for in the field loading. I carry my weighed charges in 7mmRM cases with foam earplugs in them. Pop the top and pour it in, push down a sabot with a cast bullet on top and I'm ready to shoot, again, no spit patching, fouling, and if I don't clean it for a yr, who cares.

Want to see pictures of an exploded 1911A1? Well, sorry didn't take any but I blew one of those up in 1989 or '90, it wasn't the pistols fault.

[mack1]

I have not read the entire thread so maby this has been mentioned but in a muzzleloader the boolet is stationary in the barrel like loading a bullet into the lands also the seal for the ignition is a problem, I think that is what ended the savage smokless.

[C. Latch]

Add me to the list of very satisfied Savage Smokeless customers. Been shooting mine for a decade now - including shooting the ramrod out of it over a very heavy charge of lil'gun back when that powder was the rage - with no damage yet. I'm largely convinced that the scare stories of savages blowing up are 100% due to operator error, and some of the high-profile cases may well have been intentional, by people out to smear the savage's reputation. Anyway, mine kills the snot out of deer. I certainly wouldn't try it with any other production muzzleloader, though.

[XTR]

I have no idea why Savage took the MLII out of production. I'm just glad I have one. They do have a lower threshold for dumbassery than a cartridge or a BP muzzle loader, but the gene pool needs a little chlorine now and again anyway.

[mooman76]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/284246/ More this is why.

[nanuk]

I'd like to see Larry Gibson do some pressure trace experiments with his guns loaded with factory level loads, BP level loads and loads WITH BP, and then compare them.

[longbow]

I know you are asking a legitimate question and so far have received a lot of good answers but I can't help but add a bit.

As stated well by dtknowles ~ "...the tool was not designed for smokeless powder."

A mistake many people make is assuming...

"Surely we are up over 30,000 cup or more."

No we are not using BP in muzzleloaders!

A quick check in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook will tell you that. Pressures run about 1/2 that or less and are listed generally in LUP.

Back in the "old days" when I was young, information was not so easy to find. If you didn't have a Lyman Black Powder Handbook or Hodgdon handbook and if you didn't know anyone with a loading book with pressures listed and there was no local gun store that had one you were sort of out of luck.

However, now with the internet access we have, a few keystrokes will usually bring up enough information to give some guidance.

Within a few pages I turned up:

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/blac...ity-chart.html
http://powderburns.tripod.com/powder.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-result...mits_09-04.htm
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fu...hp?tid/281698/
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/in...p?topic=8018.0

Some BP cartridge gun pressures are up around 30,000 PSI but no muzzleloader data I have found so far.

No need for anyone to become a Darwin award recipient.

Not lecturing, just adding some reference for others.

Longbow

Yikes! Whilst I was typing the thread grew a lot! Probably much of the same as I have added. Now I have to re-read.

Hahahaha! My bad! I didn't type that slow, I missed a page... DOH!

[fouronesix]

While the academics of why are worth the study- and BTW well known and understood by those willing to study the ballistic data, I can't help but think that the original purpose of primitive weapons hunts and their set-aside season dates were for primitive weapons. If you want the technology to outrun the sport then it surely seems to be doing so to the detriment of the sport. If you want to shoot targets at long range with some smokeless "ML" contraption more power to you. If you want to partake in a primitive weapons season then use a primitive weapon. If you want to use a modern ML smokeless contraption that is no different than a high power center fire single shot then hunt during the regular high power center fire season. If you want to push the envelope and flirt with "Darwin" I have no problem with that either- just do it far away from me.

[XTR]

...I can't help but think that the original purpose of primitive weapons hunts and their set-aside season dates were for primitive weapons. If you want the technology to outrun the sport then it surely seems to be doing so to the detriment of the sport. If you want to shoot targets at long range with some smokeless "ML" contraption more power to you. If you want to partake in a primitive weapons season then use a primitive weapon. If you want to use a modern ML smokeless contraption that is no different than a high power center fire single shot then hunt during the regular high power center fire season. If you want to push the envelope and flirt with "Darwin" I have no problem with that either- just do it far away from me.

You may find that your concept of the reasons behind the "primitive" season is in error today. Whether it be modern inline MLs or crossbows both are now well accepted in many places and neither has resulted in the decimation of the deer population, quite the contrary. Maybe when the primitive seasons were started thirty odd yrs ago that was the point, and I understand that in some states out west there are still restrictions to keep it "primitive", but today in many parts of the US, esp in the east, the point is game management. No matter how "easy" you think it is there are still fewer hunters in ML and Archery than in rifle season. Here in TN archery and ML season is doe season, in MS they've completely done away with the ML requirement and only require that it be a single shot of .35 cal or larger I think, (which by the way has resulted in a HUGE resurgence of the 35 Whelen). The major benefit of these seasons is population control.

In the last three yrs I've harvested 4 does in ML season with a Knight rolllingblock, this yr I've switched to a Savage MLII. Loaded with a 250 Sabot over 70gr of IMR4198 it makes about 2400FPS and I can shoot dead hold all the way out to 200 yards with a 175 yard zero. It's +2 at 100 and about -2 at 200. I like it. I'll be carrying it on a Management area quota hunt next weekend. Hopefully I can tag two more.

As for flirting with Darwin, shooting a ML designed for smokeless is not, shooting smokeless in a firearm not designed for it is not just flirting, it's going to end badly.

[fouronesix]

You may find that your concept of the reasons behind the "primitive" season is in error today. Whether it be modern inline MLs or crossbows both are now well accepted in many places and neither has resulted in the decimation of the deer population, quite the contrary. Maybe when the primitive seasons were started thirty odd yrs ago that was the point, and I understand that in some states out west there are still restrictions to keep it "primitive", but today in many parts of the US, esp in the east, the point is game management. No matter how "easy" you think it is there are still fewer hunters in ML and Archery than in rifle season. Here in TN archery and ML season is doe season, in MS they've completely done away with the ML requirement and only require that it be a single shot of .35 cal or larger I think, (which by the way has resulted in a HUGE resurgence of the 35 Whelen). The major benefit of these seasons is population control.

In the last three yrs I've harvested 4 does in ML season with a Knight rolllingblock, this yr I've switched to a Savage MLII. Loaded with a 250 Sabot over 70gr of IMR4198 it makes about 2400FPS and I can shoot dead hold all the way out to 200 yards with a 175 yard zero. It's +2 at 100 and about -2 at 200. I like it. I'll be carrying it on a Management area quota hunt next weekend. Hopefully I can tag two more.

As for flirting with Darwin, shooting a ML designed for smokeless is not, shooting smokeless in a firearm not designed for it is not just flirting, it's going to end badly.

Nope, sorry no error. The original set aside early primitive weapons seasons were established to allow primitive weapons hunters a separate season apart from the high power hunters. It was originally lobbied and pressed politically and sold from the standpoint of PRIMITIVE, LIMITED EFFECTIVENESS hunting. Since then it has morphed into a gadget and technology race to simply TAKE ADVANTAGE and market and sell gadgets. It was never envisioned as a high powered single shot hunting opportunity type season. At least one State gave up fighting with having to re-write regs to keep up with the techno-race and went simply with a "Single Shot Whatever" reg. In those States that have too many deer in certain areas such means may be just another tool for herd reduction- not sport hunting, only depredation killing (or to some, simple target practice or bragging rights for total kill talley. Unfortunate that in those instances where deer are labeled and treated as vermin to a point where sport hunting and the basic hunter ethic is lost.

Simple as that.

[leeggen]

I have noticed that several people have given Wilkie a real thrashion for his info request. Several have staighted you'll blow your hand off or you'll get a breech plug in the face. Now my question is have any of you known, personally anyone that has been injurd by doing this???? Don't get me wrong I myself would not try this. I have shot really heavy slugs out of my 54TC using bp. I also noticed a couple on here that said they us FFF in their mz. I don't remember reading in the mz spec's that FFF was to be used. So are youany different than the guy trying smokeless??? Think about it, you are not f0llowing the rules either. But noone climbed your back about it or jumped to the conclussion like people did to Wilkie. He ask a simple question ,just for info., as I have done an got the same trashing.as I have gotten. My point is take the time to answer the question without jumping off the deep end. Wilkie what is comes down to is the steel in the mz just can't handle the fast increase in presure that smokless can do in comparson to bp. That is just the bottom line. IMO it is like loading a 3030 case full of bulseye in stead of 3031. The final results might not be so good, and the gamble to me is not worth it at might happen.just to see wh
CD

[johnson1942]

wilkie, a while back you asked, what is the biggest bullet and the powder you put behind it? i have a custom side lock i built my self. the barrel is 30 inches long and 1 and 1/8th diam. it is .50 cal. and 1/23 twist. i have shot alot a 720 grain paperpatch bullets in it with 110 grains of 2f black behind it. i now shoot 683 grain pp bullet with 100 grains of 2f black. its not even uncomfortable to shoot.i never felt it was unsafe to shoot. the barrel is modern rifle barrel steel. i gave my son a high end custom inline .50 cal muzzle loader that recommends smokeless powder. never felt comfortable with that. we shoot blackhorn 209 in it and it will never shoot smokeless. why chance it. the 209 powder give a 250 grain pistol bullet 2200 ft per sec. and is tack driveing accure. why go to smoke less. i use a light load of reloader 7 (37) grains in my 45/70 and feel good about that, it is a cpa modern steel gun. some people like to risk things in everything they do, i dont, the odds will catch up to you some day. a guy told me once, i always knew i was going to die, i just didnt know it was today.

[ShooterAZ]

I read an article by E.C. Harris on the Ruger Old Army. He stated that when Ruger was doing their proof testing that they used a full cylinders of Bullseye powder....and the gun held. I don't know if this is true or not, but the pressures must have been enormous if it is!