Lee 2 cavity 175 .401 mold question from a newb

[PBblaster]

Thanks rsrocket1, I am now up to 2,000 cast and waiting for the Lee sizer to show up. I measured as you suggested and get the same dimension regardless. I will take the advice and back the FCD stem out, I am trying to build inventory for the up coming IDPA season. I load 3.5 grains of HP38, COL 1.125 never put it through a chrono but can drop steel at the matches. If I can find a steady source of lead I will upgrade the pot and mold capacity. Thank you for the infromation, I will update my progress once I get the sizer and hit the range.

[RobsTV]

Did you mean to type 4.5gr of HP38?
3.5gr is below recommended minimum. May cause issues, some of which could be leading, improper slide cycling, and poor accuracy.

Here are some chrono results from HP38/W231 and that boolit.
W231 4.55gr, 897 fps, pf=161, 320 ft/lbs, ES-22, SD-8
W231 4.8gr, 935 fps, pf=168, 350 ft/lbs, ES-28, SD-8
W231 5.0gr, 964 fps, pf=174, 372 ft/lbs, ES-26, SD-8 (favorite load)
W231 5.3gr, 1046 fps, pf=188, 437 ft/lbs, ES-29, SD-6

another link that may be of help is the pdf .40 S&W IPSC Loads List
http://www.k8nd.com/ipscload.htm

[9.3X62AL]

Rob--I've used 4.7-4.8 grains of WW-231 with the Lee 175 TC (conventional lube groove) @ 1.135" to closely mimic my carry load for practice sessions in my 40 S&Ws (carry load is W-W Ranger SXT 180 grain JHP). In 3 pistols so far, these loads have met or exceeded the accuracy standard set by the jacketed factory loads, and cost a fraction of what j-word refills run.

[PBblaster]

Thanks for the information on the loads and PFs, I really need to purchase a chronograph in the near future.

I did receive the lee sizer in .401 and ran about 500 boolits through the die.

I also took a closer look at my mold considering the silghtly larger diameter that was being dropped, upon inspection with a 10X Loupe I noticed a thin amount of lead inside the track of the mold line up groove. I removed this obstruction and those boolits size easier with much less friction through the sizer then the previous mentioned in my OP. I did notice something in my mold during inspection that I have yet to completely get my mind around, With the mold closed and held up to the light I get a slight gap between the mold halves but only in between the cavities and no gap where the point of the boolits are formed. When I cast I do not get incomplete boolits or wings on the boolits.

I do load light for IDPA(3.5 HP38) and have changed out my recoil spring from the 16lb factory to a 13lb non-captured rod and spring. I will only do this until enough 40 pros are manufactured and I can shoot it in the production division. I have shot this load last season in a 40C without lead,cycle or extraction issues using commercial hard cast 180 grain and the factory recoil set up.

I completed 15 test bullets but have yet to go to the range, still feeling the after math of last weeks snow snow fall.

All were cast water quenched and weighed (185 gns)

pan lubed using 50/50 paraffin vaseline

sized through the lee .401 sizing die

3.5 of HP38 AOL 1.130

I tried backing the stem of the FCD out but the bullets would not feed and allow the slide to go into battery.

I set the FCD die up per the lee instructions and all 15 bullets feed freely and securely return the slide to battery.

Guess all that is left is to head off to the range,check accuracy and leading.

I really appreciate all the help this forum has offered me regarding my new learning experience.

[RobsTV]

It is normal to see light in closed cold Lee mold halves, and as long as they drop fine, you are in good shape.

I would skip the FCD all together and use the seating die to crimp just the case mouth enough to chamber. FCD is made for jacketed bullets not lead boolits.

1.130 was about the max OAL I could get to chamber, and went with 1.125 to give a little extra space. But the throating reamer corrected that as well, and now longer than 1.130 is possible.

But really just load some up and shoot 'em. All might be working fine the way you have things setup.

[RobsTV]

Thanks for the information on the loads and PFs, I really need to purchase a chronograph in the near future.
....
All were cast water quenched
...
sized through the lee .401 sizing die
....
3.5 of HP38 AOL 1.130
...
I set the FCD die up per the lee instructions and all 15 bullets feed freely and securely return the slide to battery.

A quickload check shows that Lee boolit loaded with 3.5gr of HP38 and OAL of 1.130 will generate maximum chamber pressure of 13040 psi, and have a velocity 749 fps. I find quickload is usually within 5% of what my chrono shows.

The boolit will not expand or Obturate with that load and water quenched boolits (15 BHN), as it needs at least 21330 psi to begin obturation. Basically, boolit will start as .401 sized, be swagged down a little in the FCD, and stay that smaller than .401 size. Fine if you are using jacketed. 4.5gr of HP38 would bring pressure up to 21661 psi (905fps), barely enough to start obturation, but at least it will fit a little better.

What does this all mean? At the very least, better accuracy if you increase that load to load data charts recommended minimum starting levels.

For proper chambering, another thing to try. See how your fired brass fits in the chamber. It will. And, it is larger than what your case sizing die will leave them. Try to insert one of your sized boolits into that fired case by hand. Should be able to. This should show you that the boolit will not expand the case large enough that you will need to resize everything after a round is completed (FCD). Again without sizing the brass and no boolit, add a flare/expand the mouth as you would prior to seating boolit. Now try to chamber. It won't. Final step is to place that brass in combo seating/crimp die and adjust crimp (main die body height) so that the mouth is small enough to chamber (note that you will need to adjust this again once you do it with lead since the seating process changes things a little). Measure everything. You will see that you do not need to use the FCD.

[popper]

it needs at least 21330 psi to begin obturation

Does that come from QL? 50/50 COWW/Pb = 11, WD = 18. How do you equate the bump pressure to BHN?

[RobsTV]

Does that come from QL? 50/50 COWW/Pb = 11, WD = 18. How do you equate the bump pressure to BHN?

The main point I meant to stress was 3.5gr of HP38 and OAL of 1.130 will generate maximum chamber pressure of 13040 psi (Quickloads), which with a 40 S&W, is something I think would be way to low, and below minimum recommended starting load.

The 15 BHN was just a simple guestimation of WD WW, and also about the same as my air cooled alloy. Each WW alloy batch BHN will be slightly different than another unless exact same weights are used, or first each weight is measured for hardness and sorted. Also requires exact same casting temp, water temp, and casting speed to the water. For these reasons, I prefer HT in toaster oven.

If your WD boolits measure 18 BHN, then it would require 25920, which according to QL would need about 4.9gr of HP38 with that Lee boolit at 1.130.

But while all this might make good reading, and reference points to build around, nothing beats the results a shooter obtains with his own gun, alloy and powder.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

From the link above:
Bullet BHN / "Minimum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)

The formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obturate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422.

[PBblaster]

RobsTV,

Thank you very much for the information regarding boolit obturation, I will leave the FCD die to bulge bust range pick ups. I will also increase my load to 4.5 grains of powder and set my seating and crimp die per your instructions. I guess a harndess tester will be in order so I can try keeping my alloy at the same hardness to assure boolit obturation. I really appreciate the education you provided me in your response.

[RobsTV]

Don't get too carried away with technical info.
I think most casters never check hardness and some don't even use a thermometer.

Loading tables for the powder and boolit used is a good starting point, but that can be harder to find when shooting the still fairly new 40 S&W lead.

Cast a few dozen, then shoot and see how things work for you, then adjust as needed. Once you get it down you can pump out 100's or 1000's as desired.

[PBblaster]

I want to make sure I learn the proper way to apply the science behind casting and shooting the boolits made by my own hand. Obturation and pressure go hand and hand, this is clearly a variable I did not take into consideration due to my newbness. I would of continued to make mistakes with powder charge and bullet hardness.

I guess I should research pressure and hardness and decide on where I want to be while getting the best performance from my equipment. Problem being I scrounge lead and do not have the experience to know what composition it may be of, I know what wheel weights are but have had old lead from people who made sinkers, lead pipes and wire sheathing. I try to homogenize all lead sourced and then cast it up. I guess a hardness gauge and known metals and amounts needed to either harden or soften the alloy would be in order.

[RobsTV]

This is a must have if you really want to get into things.
Free pdf can be downloaded, or view with browser.

From Ingot to Target:
A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Also a good read is:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[popper]

RobsTV - OK, the Lee formula. Unfortunately it doesn't work well for pistol. I agree, the 3.5 load will need softer than 50/50 WW/Pb where most of us use 4.5 gr. I tried pure with 1% tin and got bad leading, in part because the Lee sizer (.401) leaves the soft @ .400.

[PBblaster]

Finally got to the range this weekend, I loaded and shot 30 rounds of my newly cast boolits with the starting load of 4.5 HP38/185 gn at a COL of 1.130.

I'm not sure if I'm getting streaks of lead or the bore is a bit rough considering newness, I could remove most of the streaking with a few passes of a brass cleaning brush. Boolits are sized to .401-2 and I am using 50/50 paraffin vaseline, I recovered one round and could clearly make out the lands and grooves in the boolit. Any insight on what I can do to eliminate the streaking?

[MT Chambers]

I'd try a diff. lube first, my fav. is Carnauba Red.

[PBblaster]

Thank you sir for the response, I will lube my next batch using your suggestion.

[Willbird]

I'm not a fan of smoking mold cavities to get a mold to work, BUT if you did not have to smoke, if you do so it will reduce the dia of the bullets some, could be .001 or more depending on what you use to smoke. I have used butane the most. I try to re clean a mold and can usually can get them to work without smoking, but if I had a "Big" mold I wanted smaller bullets from I sure would try smoking. I had a .452 TL mold that dropped .454 bullets....Lee did replace it with some grumbling. My point was that the TL is sold to use bullets as case, and .454 is a pretty big bullet for some 45 acp's, it caused failure to feed in my gun.

[warf73]

OK I don't get why you would change your powder charge which was proven accurate last shooting season? You also stated that you changed out the factory spring set up for a lighter one to go with your light charge of HP 38. With your heaver charge of powder you could damage your firearm over time considering you shoot comp with it would/could happen in short order. As for the hardness why worry about it at all you also stated you shot store bought boolits last shooting season with your charge of 3.5gr with accuracy I'm guessing or you would have changed your load then, and those store bought boolits are brn 18~25+.

Now you loaded and shot your cast boolits with 4.5grs and getting leading?? Maybe you should go back to were you started and see were you are as it worked before aka 3.5grs. as again I'm guessing you didnt get leading before or you would have changed something last year.

These are all just observations on my part of what has been posted.

Warf

[mpmarty]

I would run the loaded rounds thru a Carbide Factory Crimp die, this will post size your brass/bullet to work in a standard SAAMI chamber. I do this with my Lee TL bullets.

This will guarantee lousy accuracy and plenty of leading. The LEE carbide pistol "FACTORY CRIMP DIE" is a disaster waiting to happen to anyone using it plus the brass springs back and the boolit doesn't so you run the danger of blowing up a gun with boolit setback.