.35 Rem with the brass shortened

[blaster]

Start Date: 9/21/2011
End Date: 9/21/2011
Entry Description
INDIANAPOLIS – The Indiana Natural Resources Commission on Tuesday approved a package of changes to deer hunting rules that will go into effect in the 2012 season.

None of the changes will be in effect this year.

The final adoption vote came after preliminary approval by the NRC in January and a six-month public comment period that included hundreds of written comments and two public hearings.

The rule changes include creating a crossbow license and authorizing its use during the entire archery season; extending the archery season without interruption from Oct. 1 through the first Sunday in January; extending the urban zone season from Sept. 15 through Jan. 31; requiring hunters in urban zones to harvest an antlerless deer before harvesting and antlered deer; establishing a special antlerless season from Dec. 26 through the first Sunday in January in designated counties; adding the non-resident youth licenses and a new deer license bundles; requiring display of hunter orange on occupied ground blinds; and extending the rifle cartridge length that can be used in the firearm season to 1.8 inches.

http://www.in.gov/activecalendar/Eve...cate=syndicate

[scb]

Now I've gone to the link you provided. And it says what you have above "rifle cartridge length that can be used in the firearm season to 1.8 inches". Unless the legal definition of a cartridge in Indiana is different than what most of us except it as, the 1.8" INCLUDES the bullet. It dosen't say cartridge case.

[blaster]

This is a news dispatch, Not the revision of the Indiana Administrative Code as adopted.

312 IAC 9-3-3 as effective next year reads as follows:
"(4) A rifle must fire a cartridge that meets the following specifications:
(A) Fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch diameter or larger.
(B) Have a minimum case length of one and sixteen-hundredths (1.16) inches.
(C) Have a maximum case length of one and eight tenths (1.8) inches"

[GabbyM]

"(4) A rifle must fire a cartridge that meets the following specifications:"

That says the rifle and nothing about what cases you happen to have in your pocket or in the rifle.

perhaps you could stamp the barrel with a modified caliber? Stamp SHORT after 35 REM . But if they decide to drop a 35 REM case in there and it closes you're hosed. Simple fact is a 35 REM chamber has a maximum case length of 1.920". The 460 S&W mag has a case length of , you guessed it, 1.800".

What are the chances they will change that wording before it's final?

[357Mag]

Blaster -

Howdy !

After work today, I had the opportunity to get out some .35Rem brass; and my new vernier calipers.

Let's run a .35Rem wildcatting" drill ".....

Figuring backwards.....

- You'd have to re-form the brass ( shoulder shove ) some how, and I suggest use of a .358Win FL die' with internals removed. This gives you the case's neck length. That would be some .365", or.... a " one-calibre " neck.

- Indiana allows case oal of 1.625", an apparent concession to use of .500 S & W.
Backing off from that spec to provide a " cushion " for some picky compliance officer, the max case lg would be 1.620"; say.

- Looking at a .35 Rem case 2-dimensional drawing in profile view, virtually all the neck would be taken off the case, if cases forming would start that way.
But it won't start like that. Just leave the .35 cal case .35 cal, and it will form that way as the case' shoulders get shoved back in the .358Win die.
But... shove the shoulder to what point ?

- Looking at how the new case dimension will stack-up...
1.620" minus the .358 Win-spec .365" neck Lg and .045" shoulder " length
( in side view ); renders a 1.210'" figure.
1.210" minus the .200" dimension of the rim and extractor cut on a .35 Rem case' leaves us with a base-to-shoulder dimension of 1.010" .
That is approx .064" less than the same dimension for a 6PPC case, albeit
.35 Rem brass has a larger base diameter.

- What does the 1.620" case oal tell us ??
Well, compare to the stubby 1.285" .35 Rem-derived wildcat case I previously mentioned.....
- the 1.285" case + a Rem .35 calibre 150PSP seated to top of cannelure, gave a final cartridge oal of 1.870". THAT tells us a longish/pointy .35 cal bullet won't work in a 1.620" long case; as the 1.800" max cartridge length would be exceeded. * In-order to avoid having to seat bullets beneath the case neck....bullets would have to have truncated cone shaped noses, or wide/flat points; etc. Something like a .357" calibre 180gr Sierra.

- Compared to a .357AutoMag case, the new stubby .35 Rem-derived case we're talking about would hold LESS powder. My .357AutoMag-chambered carbine shot 24gr WW296 and Magnum primers under Sierra or Hornady .357 180s
superbly ! The new .35 wildcat case would hold/shoot less powder than the
.357AutoMag.

- If fired in a stock .35 Rem chamber, the new .35 cal wildcat's shoulder and neck pretty much lie exactly in space immediately beneath the rifle chamber's shoulder, that is... in a section of chamber where the side-walls normally would have contained the upper portion of a stock .35 Rem case' . Say WHAT ?!?
....The new wildcat's shoulder would " blow-out " to conform to the sidewalls of the rifle's chamber. The wildcat's nominal .380" OD neck would blow-out to fit the chamber's upper section of straight-tapered side wall. This DOE NOT mean that fired cases could not be extracted after firing.

- Also of note..... even .35 cal wildcat cartridges close to max allowed 1.800" lg
would feature seated bullets that.... of necessity... would have to "jump" to the rifling; because of the 1.800" celing on cartirdge oal. The "net effect " on accuracy, would need to be tested.

With regards,
357Mag

[Uncle Grinch]

How about a short 35 Remington using a 7.62x39 case?


7.62 through a trimmed 35 Rem die, Fire formed 35 ARem w/Hornady 180 SSP, 300 Blackout
OAL is 2.150" right now, still doing some load development.

Now this looks very interesting.....

[izzyjoe]

i guess i'm missing something here, but what's wrong with a .357 mag. or .357 max. if you feel under gunned with those, you could buy a rossi in 480 S&W. but if you just need Something to do with time, sky's the limit! cause you know for every law there is a loop hole.

[SCOTT ARTHUR]

What blaster, myself & others here in Hoosierland are trying to do is make the .35 Rem. cartridge legal in Indiana by trimming the case to a little less than 1.8 in. in length. I'm having good luck ( so far) using H4895 & the TLC 359 - 190 RD boolit at a COAL of 2.30. Functions fine thru my Marlin 336. I will get real serious latter this fall when it cools down & my vacation kicks in.

Scott

[357Mag]

Scott A.

Howdy -

' Been following this post, and want to re-ask the question:

Is the 1.800" length Indiana regs mention JUST for the brass, or....
is it for the loaded cartirdge oal ?

IF it's the latter, simple case trim won't " cut it ".

I believe from reading the previous entries, that BOTH positions/views have been stated.

IF I might then ask ( again )...... which way is it ?!

With regards,
.357Mag

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The 35 on the 7.62 X 39 case will work through a short SAKO action. I tried it years ago. No reason , maybe , it wouldn't work in the CZ 527. My SAKO 7.62 custom is a deer killer. I think bullet quality in 30 caliber would make up for bullet diameter on deer shooting.

BvT

[white eagle]

just grab a rifle and go

[SCOTT ARTHUR]

357Mag,

The 1.80 inch length is for the BRASS only. As crazy as it sounds, a person could load up a 250gr. J-word bullet or a itty bitty collar button boolit in 1.8 brass & still be legal!

Scott

[357Mag]

Scott -

Thanx for the info update.

Well heck, if it's 1.800" case oal, IMHO a fore-shortened ( neck trimmed )
.35 Rem should be workable.

- You'd have bullet jump to the rifling

- You might have a sooty neck on case/chamber ( but not many rounds will
be fired in the field ).

A Sierra bullet tech once told me, that as a general guideline..... .125" of bullet in the neck was/is considered the minimum practical amount.
He did not specify or qualify his statement by calibre. I know I often have pushed the .125" minimum rule, and have always had satisfactory outcomes from those rifles/loads.

With regards,
357Mag

[Bret4207]

So what are you gonna do if the Game Dept uses the SAAMI standards and see's through your attempt to skirt the law? I understand what you're trying to do and I think the law itself banning rifles for deer is kinda dumb, but I've seen people try to get around the law be coming up with some technicality and it almost always backfires on them.

[SCOTT ARTHUR]

Brett4207,
If I go to the woods with SAMMI spec ammo for the 35 Rem., I WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW!!! As long as the BRASS is trimmed to the STATES specs., it's legal. I know it sounds crazy, but this is not ''skirtting'' the law...it IS the law.


357MAG,
Not much boolit jump at all. My 336 has a short throat, so the RD boolit seated at the base of the neck BARELY touches the rifling.


Scott

[Suo Gan]

and extending the rifle cartridge length that can be used in the firearm season to 1.8 inches.

Forget the 35 Rem, I would seek out a good used 44 mag rifle it will do what you want and then some, if you already have a 35 Rem 336, I would sell it off and get a 44 mag 1894. What an asinine rule to contend with. Heed Brets advice on this and don't get your tit in the legal wringer.

[excess650]

BVT,
I HAVE a CZ-527 in 7.62x39 and it is incredibly accurate. Yes, it could be rebarreled, but the original poster doesn't want to go to any expense to be legal or practical.

SG,
The OP is a lawyer, so doesn't care if he is called for using short brass in a SAMMI chamber.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ditto. to be legal, anyway.

I'm all for wild cats, or working with what you have, but.... seems alot of work, when this would be a great 'I need another gun!' excuse.

Dunno.

To be super honest, personally(IE,I am NOT recamending you do this...), I'd be reeeeaaaally tempted to just hunt with the .35rem and be done with it. What are the odds of actually meeting a DNR man in the field anyway? Meh. Probably wouldn't. but really... how many hoops should we have to jump through?

Regarding the excuse for another rifle, I'm with you on that. But we have to recognize that not everyone has the spare cash these days, or a sufficiently understanding wife (or significant other).

I would not, in any way, contemplate just shooting .35 Remington and taking my chances. Yes, the odds of meeting a Warden in the field are slim. But it can happen. And if it happens, it can be really, really costly these days. Buying a new rifle would be cheap compared to the fines and seizures which can be levied against a game law violator.

Just my $0.02 USD.

Ed

[Bret4207]

Brett4207,
If I go to the woods with SAMMI spec ammo for the 35 Rem., I WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW!!! As long as the BRASS is trimmed to the STATES specs., it's legal. I know it sounds crazy, but this is not ''skirtting'' the law...it IS the law.

Scott

Scott, if you really want to try this then I would suggest you contact the Fish and Game people, present exactly what you want to do, find out exactly how they measure the cases and what the tolerance on their field measuring instruments are and get the names of anyone who tells you you are okay doing this.

I'm not trying offend you, but what you are doing reminds me of the people who try to skirt NYS law against daggers by saying that although it's double edged ( the definition of a dagger) only one edge is sharp! Using your interpretation of a law and the technical way around it depends, among other things, the Game Wardens measuring instrument being set very close to yours. It also depends on what standards they are using for case measurement. If they are using SAAMI specs as a guide, you're gonna get arrested. They may not measure the actual case you are using at all. They may be aware of varying case lengths and choose to go with the standard for the case. Without knowing EXACTLY how they are figuring this you are leaving yourself open.

Again, no offense, but I spent over 20 years seeing people trying to bend the law to fit their wants based on their opinion and interpretation and arresting them when they fell on their face. It's just not a good idea.

[Dutch4122]

Hmm, lets see, he's carrying a rifle that is stamped ".35 Remington" on the barrel; and the cartridge case head says ".35 Rem" and "RP." Looks to me like he's hunting with an illegal caliber. No, I don't have a set of calipers in my cruiser; and no we don't have any back at the station, either. So, you get issued a citation; and the gun and ammo get siezed as evidence.

Now, if you are able to represent yourself (for free I might add) and not pay a lawyer hundreds or thousands of dollars to get yourself out of this mess; I guess it's not that big of a deal. But, for most hunters it is a big deal. Just not worth the headache in my humble opinion.

I'm with the others, get a .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum levergun and hunt with the appropriate headstamped ammunition.