Hey lever gunners. Indiana just changed its deer rules, 1.16-1.8" cartridge cases with .357+ projectiles are legal for next year.
I'm already kicking around a marlin 336c in .35 Rem with the brass trimmed from 1.92 to 1.799.
Do you guys think it would work OK? Would that leave me with enough neck?
They can take my guns when they get past my IED's.
Doesn't the rule apply to the original rounds OAL?
Per my manuals, the neck is .335 long, so may be a bit short, but I'd try it. I figure worst case scenario is that it doesnt work as well as hoped and you have some cleaning to do.
It may apply to the round his gun was originally chambered for, but I would think that his new wildcat round should be ok. I mean, it may cost a ticket or something while he's out in the woods, but wouldn't your ammunition being measured clear you in the end? Just asking.
Blaster -
Howdy !
" Great minds think alike " !
I've been case-forming some .35 calibre wildcat designs here of late.
You can use a stock .358 Win FL size die ( LEE ) with expander & mandrel removed, to make die open-topped.
Since the .358Win has a shoulder diam of some .454", and .35 Rem basic brass has a shoulder smaller in diam; you can use a " perch" to help re-form .35Rem brass in the .358Win die.
A perch is made froma stock .308 shell holder, a flat-head screw w/ a head diam less than .455" daim; and two jam nuts.
The screw has one jam nut on it above the shellholder, and one below.
In-use, the extra screw threads are situated in the primer arm slot of the press
( mine's a "Rockchucker " ).
Brass to be formed is situated atop the perch, and press arm operated to advance brass up-into the case formeing ( .358Win FL ) die.
As the shoulder is shoved downward on the brass, excess brass extrudes out the top of the open-topped die.
You can run the shoulder downward on the brass, up to a point of where the new .35 widlcat's shoulder diameter is .454". However, at that "formed shoulder diameter, you'd have inadequate case capacity/ case oal.
**** SO... you'd need to stop shoving the shoudler at a point where you can still cut the final brass to .358WIn neck length ( assumes you'd chamber w/ a .358Win die held " short " ). When this is done, the formed shoulder would be smaller in diam than .454", and could be fire-formed ( if even proven necessary ) to expand out a few thou'.....l again, only if need be. You'd also be keeping an eye out for the majic case oal Indiana requires.
No custom dies... no custom reamers.
One can also wildcat w/ the .358Win die and "perch, utilizinn 7 X 64 Brennekke brass, which has a nominal base diam of .466".
Let's talk, again.
Regards,
357Mag
Great info there 357, but more involved than I'm looking for, I don't want to move the shoulder just trim .121 off of the case neck.
Rico, Case length is the operative measure.
Lone, that would only leave me with .214 of neck. I wounder if that would be enough neck tension. I'm not worried about a ticket since it will be legal and I'm not worried about representation if I get one since I'm a lawyer.
I posed this on Indiana sportsman and someone said he had the same idea, but he was going to go with a single shot to eliminate need for crimp or worries about cycling.
They can take my guns when they get past my IED's.
So wildlife officials are going around measuring everyones case length?
http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files...rhuntguide.pdf
2011-2012 Indiana Deer Hunting Guide.
"Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet
of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a
minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
are legal to use only during the deer firearm
season."
trimming .121" off a 35 REM leaves a 1.799" case.
Top of the shoulder on a 35 REM is 1.584".
These silly new pistol caliber hunting laws are a custom gun makers dream. Particularly ignorant when you consider the fact that pistol caliber rifles are by far more inherently dangerous than HV small caliber rifles. But we should probably keep that a secret.
The thing about wildcats which are designed to work around a law is this. You can never be 100% legal out in the field. You are simply stacking points against you. Who knows what some game warden will find offending? I’m mostly dipping into my truck driving experiences rather than hunting here. If you stand out in nay way you will be scrutinized. Well on any given Sunday that could be a sorry day in your life.
Fact is a 357 magnum will hammer the dickens out of a deer easily out to 100 yards and 150 yards with some skill. Makes those shotguns slugs look like the slingshots they are.
In a single shot 357 you can load rifle bullets like my 205 grain 35 rem boolit which places more bullet out in the nose to free up case capacity. But that’s all splitting hairs on paper.
Unfortunately we are in a scourge of Corporate issues with Marlin lever guns. Or I’d say just trade off for an 1894 in 357 or 44. The break top single shots are actually kind of handy. You can always sell one a couple years out for thirty bucks less than you paid for it.
Back about 1971 I purchased a Hawkins smoke pole to hunt deer here in Illinois.
There were no muzzle loader only hunting seasons back then I just knew shotgun slugs suck. Well that and Robert Redford got kissed by his Indian wife in a movie Jeremiah Johnson . And he lusted for a fifty caliber Hawkins. I was 15 and confused.
If you’re gona go pistol caliber hunting then watch a few western movies and get attached to a 44-40 John Wayne cowboy gun. Then buy a 44 mag lever gun and load it with 205 grain boolits at 1400 fps. The old 44-40 black powder rounds only launched the 205 gr at 1205 fps. If you wanted to you could launch a gas checked 250 grain slug at 1,500 fps or a #429215 at 220 grains at 1,700 fps. Then 357 mag ballistics are no slouch out of a rifle
look for hornady leverrevalution brass. it is quite a bit shorter, so less trimming will be needed.
Blaster -
OK... some more idle thoughts.....
It sounds like the Indiana law on minimum deer "rifle" calibre/case would allow for use of a .357Mag @ 1.290". .38Spl cases are 1.155" long.
You quoted "case oal " , and not "cartridge oal ".
A .357AutoMag case length of 1.470" ( un-altered ) would be longer than the case length stated. .357 Baine & Davis cases would run right around 1.600" oal.
If you were to shoot .35 Rem "shorties " in a stock M336, is one idea to come up with minimum recoil effects by means of shooting the absolute MINIMUM case capacity you can get by with ?
One more time....
A .35 Rem case shortened ( for example ) to 1.285" case oal and with a
.358 Win-length neck; would give the following cartridge oals... with the example bullets seated to tops of their cannelures:
1.285" case w/ Rem 150 PSP = 1.870" c.o.a.l.
1.285" case w/ Hornady 140 " FLEX-Tip" = 1.650" c.o.a.l.
As you can see by the reference bullet examples, use of longer/heavier .357" or
.358" cal bullets in a case of 1.285" length ;would result in cartridges w/ c.o.a.l.s
significantly longer-than 1.870".
Thinking aloud... an H & R Handi-Rifle in .45Long Colt, shooting .45 calibre muzzle-loader sabots; loaded w/ .35 cal bullets. One could pull the bullets, and load .35 calibre bullet of his choice ( rifle twist allowing ), should empty/new .45 cal sabots ( that accept .35 cal bulets ) be un-obtainable on their own.
Further along the H & R line-up...... that combo .45LC/ .410 combo Rifle would have a rifled barrel. .410 hulls ( maybe sabots, too ) could be cut short, and loaded w/ the .35cal bullet of choice. This would be a short-range proposition,
fer sher.
Just some thoughts....
With regards,
357Mag
I'd be willing to bet if and when you get caught by some bunny cop you will be either arrested or at least ticketed. Now when you get to court with your lawyer, and if you get a judge that's willing to listen to your argument you might prevail. But at what cost. If I just HAD to do something like this I'd get a "beater" 30/30 and have someone put a 357 Herrett (1.75" cast length) barrel on it. My $.02.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
Benjamin Franklin
Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.
James Madison
How about a short 35 Remington using a 7.62x39 case?
7.62 through a trimmed 35 Rem die, Fire formed 35 ARem w/Hornady 180 SSP, 300 Blackout
OAL is 2.150" right now, still doing some load development.
I think you're just inviting trouble.
What would I do? Find a 30-30 336 and rebarrel to 357 Herrett. Cases are easily made from 30-30s. Speer #10 lists case length at 1.765".
Data from a 14" Contender barrel and 180gr Speer FN (max loads):
32gr WW60 for 1944fps
27gr IMR4227 1817fps
25gr WW296 1834fps
24.5gr H110 1837fps
24gr Hercules 2400 1887fps
158gr are 2000fps+
This is a VERY efficient cartridge. There are lots of cast boolits that would perform very well, and you'll pick up some velocity by going to a longer barrel.
Scb has a great point. The DNR man is the law in the field. If he doesn't like it, then you get a ticket, maybe your gun confiscated, and perhaps even jail. Then, once you are out (with the stigma of "poaching offender" stuck to you) then it is your burden to prove you did not violate some poorly thought out, bizzare law.
The law certainly seems to intend to allow carbines chambered for magnum revolver cartridges, and no others. Without some written proof that your combination is acceptable to the local game authorities, do you want to be the town Crash Test Dummy?
I know I don't.
As I stated I'm not worried about getting a ticket, I'm a lawyer. The prosecutor had the burden of proof of establishing that the cartridge case was over 1.8" all I have to do is raise the defense that the case was >1.8. I love going to court when I know I'm going to win.
You guys are getting off point here. I really don't want to re-barrel anything especially for a wildcat when these regs have changed twice now in 3 years.
Will I have issues running shortened cases in a dead stock 336c with standard reloading data?
They can take my guns when they get past my IED's.
Blaster -
Before I take my MEDs..... Thinking out-loud....
If you'd have an easy way to get it back out, use a chamber insert ( similar to those used to fire smaller cases in larger chambers of the same calibre.
Your M336 .35 Rem stays a M336 .35Rem, and shorter cartridges would be supported at the front; somewhat akin to a revolver chamber. It might help a bit with bullet " jump " to the rifling. The insert's inner and outer dimensions/specs would need to be fine-tuned. You'd have to try it to know fer sher.
With lower pressure loads and not a whole ton of fired rounds likely, I can't see throat errosion as being any potential problem.
Time for my medication !
Regards,
357Mag
OK if you take care of the other "problems" . The neck on a 357 SIG is .15" long and it seems to work fine. I personally don't think I'd go any shorter than that and certainly keep it as long a possible. What I would do is get one made up, without a primer or powder and send it to Lee and have them make a custom "Factory Crimp" die as you won't be able to crimp with standard dies http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Factory-Crimp-Die/ (see asterix below list of available calibers). Unless your going to shoot this a LOT I wouldn't be too concerned about erosion caused by the short brass. You will certainly loose some case capacity so I wouldn't rely solely on published 35 Rem data. This is where an internal ballistics program comes in really handy. I use "Loads From a Disk" http://www.loadammo.com/ Another $.02Originally Posted by blaster
BTW the neck on the 300 Savage is .220" long.
Last edited by scb; 09-24-2011 at 01:45 PM.
Benjamin Franklin
Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions.
James Madison
1.8" would shoot with no problem. the neck tension may cost you a tad of accuracy but that's not a given. What has us confused some of is the rule states a max length of 1.625" not 1.8". If you cut a 35 REM to that you've cut the neck down to .041".
Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet
of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a
minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
are legal to use only during the deer firearm
season. Some cartridges legal for deer
hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40
Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44
Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester,
.45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475
Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express,
and .500 S&W.
I would just buy myself a .45 Colt, .44 Mag, or .44/40 lever gun and set about killing a pickup full of deer.
Ditto. to be legal, anyway.
I'm all for wild cats, or working with what you have, but.... seems alot of work, when this would be a great 'I need another gun!' excuse.
Dunno.
To be super honest, personally(IE,I am NOT recamending you do this...), I'd be reeeeaaaally tempted to just hunt with the .35rem and be done with it. What are the odds of actually meeting a DNR man in the field anyway? Meh. Probably wouldn't. but really... how many hoops should we have to jump through?
Last edited by G. Blessing; 09-24-2011 at 03:41 PM. Reason: spwling.. ;-0
"Brass?" "Check." "Lead?" "Check." "Powder? ""Check." "Primers?" "Check." "Lube? ""Check." "Good.... Gun? ......... Gun?......." "ummm.... I'm soposed to have a gun?"
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