45ACP Revolver Bullet Recommendations?

[gcf]

Gents -

I have recently acquired a S&W 625-8 / 4" full underlug BBL / 45acp. Frame lock aside, a pretty nice revolver. Cylinder throats are a consistent .452". B/C gap is 0.005", cylinder / bore alignment appears good, & headspace is 0.006" w/ brass in full moon clips.

Although I've not slugged the bore, there does not appear to any type of bore constriction at the threads.

Shoots factory 230 jacketed ball quite nicely, but I bought it to shoot cast - as a high volume, steel match gun.

Problem here is leading w/ commercial cast, bevel base cast bullets. Not really a big surprise, as I've never had much luck w/ BB bullets in revolvers. They usually lead badly - regardless of cylinder throat fitment.

230TC-BB /.452" / 12BHN (TiteGroup 3.8 grains), lead the forcing cone, & 1st inch of bore. 200SWC-BB / .452" / 15BHN (TiteGroup 4.5 grains) leads the cylinder throats, forcing cone, & the half of the bore.

The good news here is, it appears to shoot plain base boolits very well - w/ no noticable leading.

On a hunch, I loaded up some nice LSWC's originally obtained from The BullShop for .45 Colt use: 255SWC-PB / .452" / 10BHN (Lee mould #90356 I think), over 6.0 & 6.5 grains PowerPistol.

Clean bore & throats - w/ ragged hole groups & no indication of excess pressure. This would probably make a great CB field load, w/ a little tweaking - but a little heavy for my intended application.

Sooo, what do you guys think?? It looks like a somewhat lighter (200 - 230 grn ?), 10 - 15BHN, plain base LSWC would be ideal for this revolver. Would I be better off ordering a few different types of PB bullets, or tweaking my existing 255 grain load down a bit?

Or better yet, can anyone recommend a LSWC-PB, or for that matter, a RFN-PB that works well for them in a .45acp revolver?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[9.3X62AL]

Lyman #452423 suggests itself here. Keith-designed for the 45 ACP/AR revolvers, nominal weight was ~238 grains. If I had a 45 ACP rollerpistol, one of these would be my first stop. There has been at least one group buy of a remake of this pattern here at Cast Boolits.

Bevel-based boolits are like taper crimp dies--in the context of cast boolit shooting, an invention of the devil.

[Bass Ackward]

Or better yet, can anyone recommend a LSWC-PB, or for that matter, a RFN-PB that works well for them in a .45acp revolver?

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

I haven't found a design that hasn't been able to be made to shoot well. So if this is a volume operation, LEE has a 200 gr and a 230 Trune in 6 cavities that I use in mass. The 200 requires a fairly good lube for me cause it doesn't carry much, but that is an easy adjust.

Both of these will work with the same 6.5 gr PP although the 200 will react better if you push it some in a 4". I use 7 gr of Unique. Just depends how far you want that blunt thing to reach really.

If you want a paper design, the H&G 68 has decades of history behind it.

[KYCaster]

Bevel-based boolits are like taper crimp dies--in the context of cast boolit shooting, an invention of the devil.

Al, I use both extensively, without issue.

I guess the devil makes me do it!


Jerry

[imashooter2]

For steel wouldn't you want a round nose that you could reload in a hurry in case of disaster?

[BSkerj]

Looks like a active buy just ended for the Miha 200 grn Cramer. This is without a doubt one of the best bullets I have used in my 625. Miha usually makes some extras or maybe you can contact the Honcho and he can get you in . Also Miha has a store on his website that may have some 2 cavities available. The price is a little spendy but well worth it. Some good pictures posted on the Group Buy forum. You really get 3 molds in one. I can send you some if you want to try them...PM me and I will get some out.

[35remington]

Usually, it's NO soft, heavy bullets. Such is usually asking for problems.

The 45 ACP is a revolver "writ large", so to speak. The enormous jump the bullet must make from cylinder to forcing cone is longer than many others, and a heavy bullet has a good head of steam when it crashes into the very shallow rifling. Maybe a gain twist would be ideal, but we don't have that.

So the bullet wants to skid like mad rather than grip the rifling. I can show you recovered bullets wherein the rifling marks are completely absent as the entire bearing surface has been rubbed away to bore diameter and the bullet never got a real purchase on the barrel. Or so it seems. When I obtained the good groups with heavy bullets the gun is supposedly known for the recovered bullets show just why that is so.

So the heavy bullet (245-255 grain) should be hard. Especially if run to the 950 odd fps possible with the revolver.

If the bullet isn't going very fast, or has a decent lube, a lead free barrel can result yet the bullet is still skidding but to a reduced degree.

If you can get good accuracy and no leading with a very soft BHN bullet, please examine a recovered bullet sometime.....your claim of good results with a soft bullet at higher velocities (6.5 PP should get 900 plus fps with the 255 Lee) are not consonant with my experience, and maybe something is different I don't know about. Perhaps the rifling grip with your gun is somehow adequate enough to allow for such things, but I can't get away with using soft heavy bullets.

Lighter bullets have less inertia, and recovered 185 button nose SWC's show little skidding even if cast of straight wheelweights. Same with 200 SWC's that have a decent front band like the HG 68 clones do. However, try to shoot the wheelweight HG 68 at the higher velocities possible from a 625 and skidding problems will show up as well........1100 fps with straight wheelweights has accuracy go south on me in a hurry, and the recovered bullets show why. More standard velocities, no problem.

Commercial cast 200's are fine because they are hard, but could use a better lube for a revolver. They are good to go in automatics, usually, but revolvers demand something better than the lubes on commercial cast bullets.....and in fairness, they were lubed with such a concoction as they were intended for moderate velocities in automatics in the first place (that, and the lube doesn't fall off in shipping).

If you are just shooting steel falldown plates, a 185 to 200 grain bullet ought to be plenty. Fewer inertial related issues to boot. Big front bands are ducky.

BTW, recover a jacketed 230 sometime....they show skidding too, even though they shoot well. So with a heavy bullet it's probably impossible to completely avoid, but a reasonable amount is no detriment to accuracy.

It's when it gets excessive that problems occur.

One other comment; the Lee bullet (listed as 252 rather than 255 grains) seats really deeply in the case when the case mouth is crimped in the crimping groove or seated to that depth in ACP cases. Reduce charges others use with 255's to allow for this. It's fine when this deep seating is allowed for, but probably runs pressures notably higher than a 452424 or a 452423 at similar velocities.

[OBXPilgrim]

The very best shooting load I've gotten out of a 625 has been using the Lee 255gr RF PB. For my mold, it drops 240-245gr. And the lighter (240gr) was a screw-up on my part - I got too much lino from mystery metal in the mix. It grew - harder and larger in diameter after a month or two and after it was already loaded into 45 ACP ammo. It wouldn't chamber in a 1911 & I had to shoot them in the 625, which it would chamber into.

They shot better than anything else I've shot in it. They were nowhere as hot as 35 Rem mentions above as a hard bullet can be pushed.

And I agree totally with him about the skidding. I used to constantly get leading - but just up to the first inch from the forcing cone. But not with those.

The Lee 255gr - at least my mold, doesn't look much like the photos I've seen. Most of the photos almost make it look like the 255gr has a wider meplat than the 200gr RF. Not so with mine, it has much more "R" (round) than "F" (flat).

Hope that helps.

[crawfobj]

Off topic, but couldn't resist -

Pilgrim,

That's a nice Red you have there. Caught more than my fair share of bulls like that down in Port O'Connor, TX over the years.

[Blammer]

try a light wt like this

[gcf]

Usually, it's NO soft, heavy bullets. Such is usually asking for problems.

The 45 ACP is a revolver "writ large", so to speak. The enormous jump the bullet must make from cylinder to forcing cone is longer than many others, and a heavy bullet has a good head of steam when it crashes into the very shallow rifling. Maybe a gain twist would be ideal, but we don't have that.

So the bullet wants to skid like mad rather than grip the rifling. I can show you recovered bullets wherein the rifling marks are completely absent as the entire bearing surface has been rubbed away to bore diameter and the bullet never got a real purchase on the barrel. Or so it seems. When I obtained the good groups with heavy bullets the gun is supposedly known for the recovered bullets show just why that is so.

So the heavy bullet (245-255 grain) should be hard. Especially if run to the 950 odd fps possible with the revolver.

If the bullet isn't going very fast, or has a decent lube, a lead free barrel can result yet the bullet is still skidding but to a reduced degree.

If you can get good accuracy and no leading with a very soft BHN bullet, please examine a recovered bullet sometime.....your claim of good results with a soft bullet at higher velocities (6.5 PP should get 900 plus fps with the 255 Lee) are not consonant with my experience, and maybe something is different I don't know about. Perhaps the rifling grip with your gun is somehow adequate enough to allow for such things, but I can't get away with using soft heavy bullets.

35 Rem -
Thanks for sharing your observations. The hard alloy vs soft alloy is a hot topic for sure. Most of the 45 cal bullets (45 colt & acp) that I shoot, are in the 10 - 12 BHN range. If you are correct - & I feel it is entirely possible that you are, then I now have an explanation for the "occasional" flier from the group, that was fired with no "pulled" shots. ;=]

For the record, & in all seriousness, what BHN would you consider optimum, for heavy 45 acp revolver bullets?

Generally speaking, there are a lot of things that effect potential accuracy of a "soft" alloy bullet load. One thing I noticed a few years back, is the burn rate of the powder - or more specifically, slower powder seems to work better w/ soft / heavy / straight wall cartridge bullets. Figure it's a pressure push vs bump thing. Just a little food for thought.

[Artful]

Well, I have several 45 ACP guns, some revolvers (S&W, Ruger) and mine did fine with 45-255KT RCBS and 452450 200 SWC Lyman, and NEI TC 230 grain.

I'm waiting for my pointy 45's to try them
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=98344

[Lloyd Smale]

Niether of the 25s i have will shoot lighter bullets well. Both do much better with bullets around 250 grain. Problem with that is id really like to shoot 230 round nosed bullets as they drop in with clips much better. Ive tried about everything with the lighter bullets and 2 inch groups at 25 is about all they will do. One thing about mine is it does do much better with harder alloys and sized to 454. With alloys softer then ww or with 452 bullets they shoot shotgun patterns.

[MGySgt]

I shoot the RCBS 45-230 CM out of my 625 5 in bull barrel - Very little leading and sub 2 at 25. not bad for me and my old eyes.

I do shoot a 10X10 Steel plate at 75yard with them and ring it consitently. They work well for fast reloads in a full moon.

I push them with Unique - don't remember the load and all my stuff is packed up as I am in the process of moving.

[Thumbcocker]

The very best my model of 1989 shoots is with the lyman 452460 200 grn swc over 6.0 of 231. This is a max load in the lyman manual and is also an accuracy load. Boolit diamater is .453. I have never had the chance to shoot keith boolits in this gun but hope to do that soon.

[Dale53]

My two 625's are my most shot revolvers (5000-7500 rounds per year). I mostly shoot the H&G #68 clone from a MiHec mould. These will shoot well under one inch at 25 yards from a rest. On one of my better days, last fall, this resulted from standing at 25 yards:



This is not a once in a lifetime target nor is it something I can do every time I shoot. However, these revolvers seem to give me more of these kinds of targets than anything else I use.

My cast bullets for these revolvers are cast of WW's+2% tin and sized to .452". My cylinder throats will just admit these bullets (the throats are just large enough to admit them). Both of my revolvers seem equally accurate and I can get similar results from the orignal H&G #130 (stubby 195 gr SWC), the Saeco #68 200 gr SWC, and the NOE moulded bullet for a clone of the Lyman 454424 bullet (250 gr Keith). I drive the Keith at 900+ fps. I also shoot the Lee TC (truncated cone) 230 gr bullet from a six cavity aluminum mould. This bullet does not shoot quite as well as the others. It gives me 1 1/4" groups at 25 yards. However, I get exceptionally quick reloads with full moon clips and the flat nose guarantees much better terminal performance than the round nose bullet.

Here is the NOE bullet loaded in Starline Auto Rim brass:



A bullet that I neglected to mention is the Mihec 200 gr Hollow Point (a clone of the Lyman 452374 round nose bullet but hollow pointed). This bullet is also a speedy loader and will expand to nearly .80 caliber when properly alloyed:



NOTE: In this particular case is loaded in Starline Auto Rim cases. When needing a quick reload, I load these in .45 ACP cases and use with Ranch Products Steel full moon clips.

Dale53

[BLTsandwedge]

Lyman's 452630 over 4.1g Clays will produce accuracy ala Dale 53 with not a hint of leading. This recipe produces an average of 873fps (5" BBL, S&W 625- 1988) and a standard deviation of 13.07. Another that I've been very pleased with is Lyman's 452389- a 185g button-nose wadcutter, no longer manufactured. I was lucky to come across two- four cavity moulds of this design. They shoot as well as the 452630 and are likewise leading-free. For the 452389 I used 8.5g AA#5 and found an average 1,094fps with a standard deviation of 13.11. BhN on both the 452630 and 452389 are roughly 15 to 17 using Lee's proctology scope (hence the 'about.' I can't read the flippin' thing very well). The 625 is my 'most oft' shooter as well but I'm lucky if that means 4,000 per year.

[Gunsmoke4570]

I have used Magma Eng 45-200-RN-BB bullets for years in my 625 Model of 1988 (Very early). I have had excellent results with Bullseye and HP38 with minimal to no leading sized at .452". My standard load is 4.6gr of BE and has shown plenty enough for steel plates and IPSC poppers. This load and bullet also work well in my Kimber Custom II.

[376Steyr]

Try using 45 AR brass for your initial experiments for accuracy. My experience is that ACP cases in moonclips can have alignment issues, which is just another variable to mess things up. In my 6" M-25 1955 Target with .455 throats, using 5.8 grs of W-231 and AR cases, a hard commercial cast H&G 68 clone is quite accurate, while soft swaged equivalents make patterns, not groups. And both loads lead more than I'd like, so I'm still searching for the perfect load too.

[Freischütz]

You can't go wrong with 452423.