45acp boolits fired heavy and slow vice light and fast.

[Jim..47]

I know of an incident where a felon was shot by a local police officer through the chest twice with a 45 cal., 230 grain FMJRN and ran off. He later walked to the PD and turned himself in to get some medical treatment.

I'm wondering if he would have rather been shot with a hollow point of a flat point.

[FISH4BUGS]

I know of an incident where a felon was shot by a local police officer through the chest twice with a 45 cal., 230 grain FMJRN and ran off. He later walked to the PD and turned himself in to get some medical treatment.

Bad shot placement

[nicholst55]

The .45ACP, in any loading, is NOT the end-all handgun cartridge. Here's a real-world example of this:

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issu...mo-on-the-job/

In my mind, shot placement is king; penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.

[dualsport]

You hear a lot about projectiles and placement. I heard a retired SF guy say "P is for Plenty". Really caught my attention. They are forced to make do with fmj stuff so make the most of it by applying PLENTY of hits. Makes perfect sense to me. I guess if you were thinking of one shot deals you gotta worry about things more but I'm voting for multiple hit type tactics. Let 'em have it, I say.

[Blackwater]

The problem with trying to go light and fast in a .45 ACP is those light bullets get pretty short, and as stated above, penetration is the first law of killing/stopping. I've never fired a bullet in the .45 lighter than 185 gr., though. Have seen quite a few lighter, and even heard of some good results with the lighter bullets, but I just can't personally trust a bullet that has little bearing surface in an autoloader. I want to trust a bullet that's at least as long as a 200 gr. TC type. These (and heavier) have given me and millions of others great service. Auto pistols depend on really good ammo to function reliably. For me, that's always included good bearing surface, proper nose length and conformation for reliable feeding, and that kind'a leaves the light/fast stuff out, or at least lighter than about 185 gr. For me, it's the need of good and reliable ammo for feeding that keeps me within normal parameters of bullet wt. in the .45. Millions of people have found 185-230 gr. to be as close to "ideal" as it gets in .45 ACP. Much lighter and they get kind'a short, and you can't help but wonder if those short bearing surfaces wont' let the bullet tilt a bit and tie up the gun in a bad situation. The heavy ones work the slide too hard and are slow enough that there's really not gain, and penetration may be diminished, too. After all, it takes bullet wt. AND speed to get good penetration.

That's my story, anyway, and I'm stickin' with it.

[Big Boomer]

We all have our own thoughts and what we think (perhaps I should say hope) is a reasonable, logical, experienced (if not ours', then others') and an informed approach or concept of self defense derived from our study of available data and test information. I had a genuine eye-opener one summer day in 1996 while shooting at a groundhog in NE Ky. I luckily (that's bold, italicized, and underlined for emphasis - I know luck when I see it) connected with the groundhog with one and only one shot from a Ruger P90 in .45 ACP, a handload that featured a 185 gr. jhp bullet over what I thought was a fine, generous load of W231 that proved to be very accurate while shooting from sandbags at paper targets at 25 yards. Those bullets would cluster nearly into a 1" group consistently. I lined up on the groundhog, not having a clue regarding the distance between the pistol and target and raised the front sight to cover the ground hog to the top of its head since it was standing up. At the shot, the groundhog dropped and never moved. A bit of checking revealed that the bullet not only did not open up, but hit the groundhog in the left shoulder and traveled only about 2/3rds of the distance across the groundhog toward the opposite shoulder (4" max penetration). A buddy was present who witnessed the shot and had a 50 yard tape measure handy in his pickup and stretched it out three times and proved my guess on the distance was far off the mark - it was almost exactly 130 yards. That bullet encountered nothing but tough groundhog. While it got the job done, I was more than a little put off that the bullet didn't open up and that it didn't penetrate any deeper. To each his own ... but I'll go with a 230 gr. rn bullet/boolit - preferably with a bit of a flat nose or hollow point if it will feed. Just my take on this. If any threat is 130 yards away, perhaps I've got time to think this over and get a bigger stick and preferably with a longer barrel. Since I just turned 76 and have fought and won - so far - three battles with cancer, I sorely realize that one good lick by a big young guy (or gal) could damage me considerably. So for me, I pack a full size .45 ACP using suspenders (since the cancer left me kinda skinny) or a Sig 938 9mm under dress duds. Big Boomer

[Char-Gar]

A short 45 auto bullet will loose allot of velocity by the time it goes 130 yards and any expansion is pretty much a gift of from God. Penetration would also be reduced.

[Houndog]

My way of thinking on this is John Moses Browning designed the 1911 AND the 45ACP round to work with a 200 grain bullet and I'm not in any position to one up him in either case. When the ordinance department mandated the 230gr bullet I think they deminished the efectivness of the design. We can all agree a 200 grain slug moving along at close to 1,000 FS will do a bunch of damage but is still no match for a rifle, nor was it ever intended to be. Since we are only talking 1000fs MAXIMUM velocity a jacketed hollow point bullet might not be an advantage at a longer range. My favorite load for the 45acp has been a Lyman 452460 cast of 50/50 ww and pure over 7.5 Unique. It has served me well for everything I've used the 45 for.

[Shiloh]

My 200 gr. HG 68 CLone goes 825-850 or so IIRC. Better than two years since I clocked them. 4.4 gr Bullseye.

Shiloh

[fredj338]

IMO, not so much heavy & slow vs bullet shape. A RN bullet pushes tissue aside, smooth hole thru the target. A flat point or sec will crush & tear tissue along it's path. The perm wound will be larger, not prone to self sealing with fat & fur. The idea of a HP is to create a larger frontal area that crushes/tears more tissue, bigger bullet = bigger hole.
If I were stuck with FMJ, I would want a SWC or flat point. I carry & shoot the 45acp a lot. I am a big fan of the 200gr bullet in target form or something like the Lee WNFP. Run it at 950fps, recoil is very manageable & it smacks things really hard.

[wv109323]

A quote I read from a forensic pathologist was "It is not what you got it is where you put it."

[RogerDat]

Accuracy followed by penetration in my book. Need to have enough momentum and be able to carry that momentum through the target, if bullet fractures into pieces each piece will penetrate much less. If bullet is modest weight it will have more problem with transfer of energy and with maintaining momentum. Big slow sledge hammer does a whole lot better job of driving a big tent stake into the ground than a smaller faster moving hammer. Even if the actual force is equal E.G half as much weight traveling twice the speed is equal force.

Which does beg a question what is the force of the specific rounds in question? Going from 220 gr at 800 fps vs. 200 gr. at 1000 fps you have to ask what is the actual force being delivered to the target by each. Also rate at which they lose force. 10% loss of speed from the heavier round costs it less force than it does for the lighter round.

[Jim..47]

If I were stuck with FMJ, I would want a SWC or flat point. I carry & shoot the 45acp a lot. I am a big fan of the 200gr bullet in target form or something like the Lee WNFP. Run it at 950fps, recoil is very manageable & it smacks things really hard.

Fred, would you mind sharing your loading data with me for the 200 Gn. SWC. I have the mold and have been shooting it for a few years, but it doesn't seem as accurate as the 230 Gn. RN. I would rather shoot the 200 if it would shoot accurate as its a little less recoil. PM is fine if you don't want to advertise.

[Outpost75]

Here is my .45 ACP data:
______________________ M1911A1_NM-5"
230-grain FMJ___________Avg._Sd_ES
TW55 Ball REF___________858_28_72

H&G#68_200grain SWC, Federal cases, CCI primers
AlliantBE_4.0 grs.-CCI_LgPmr_819_7_20
______________CCI_SmPmr_784_15_46
AlliantBE_4.5 grs.__LgPmr___863_21_51
________________SmPmr__864_46_115
AlliantBE _5.0 grs._LgPmr___945_6_15
________________SmPmr__922_19_42