One Inch!

[barrabruce]

Awesome.
I couldn't do that with a lazer gun standing with no recoil.

[windrider919]

Unfortunately, the problem I never solved was having enough case neck tension to grip the bullet hard enough that the rounds in the magazine did not get their bullets set back deeper into the case from recoil. If the necks hold the PP bullet that tight, there is NO accuracy.

Also, as too many have noted, the standard length action (a supposed benefit for the 458 touted by Winchester) limits the OAL...yet invariably the best PP OAL is WAY forward into the throat.

Which means I shoot my 458 as a bolt action single shot. not a magazine fed rifle. And the LESS case mouth tension, the more accuracy, to the point of diminishing returns where fired, un-sized brass shoots best of all.

[offshore44]

Unfortunately, the problem I never solved was having enough case neck tension to grip the bullet hard enough that the rounds in the magazine did not get their bullets set back deeper into the case from recoil. If the necks hold the PP bullet that tight, there is NO accuracy.

Also, as too many have noted, the standard length action (a supposed benefit for the 458 touted by Winchester) limits the OAL...yet invariably the best PP OAL is WAY forward into the throat.

Which means I shoot my 458 as a bolt action single shot. not a magazine fed rifle. And the LESS case mouth tension, the more accuracy, to the point of diminishing returns where fired, un-sized brass shoots best of all.

I'll agree to that. Two to two and half inches is the best that I seem to be able to get with enough case neck tension to prevent set back. With set back, the groups just go away entirely. Give me something to work on though. I'm guessing that I'll need to have two different sets of loads, one for bragging rights and one for shooting / hunting. The nice thing about the rifle / boolit / load combination that I am using is that the crimp falls right into a grease groove. There is only so much movement that the boolit can have. Push them faster though and the case cuts the patch. Bad stuff.

I started sizing my boolits so that they are a very firm thumb push fit into the un-sized case. I may go about a half a thousandths bigger, just for grins. That would put them at 0.454", plus the paper would put them at 0.464".

I really need to get a custom adjustable mold about now. $200 is more than I can afford right now though, so it'll have to wait.

I have no issues with magazine length on the CZ. It is a magnum length action. Way more room there than I can ever think of using with any of the boolits I currently have. The 458 is actually pretty under sized in the magazine. One of the reasons that I purchased the CZ was because it holds five in the magazine; that and the set trigger is a real delight to use. It's also nice to have a rifle that is actually big enough to fit me.

On another note. I tried your case annealing technique, using melted lead in the pot as a heat source. Seems to work really well so far. I was annealing some once fired .300 Win mag brass to blow out for making .458 cases. (to chicken to try it on my precious 458 cases yet) No soldering at all, the little lead that was on the cases came right off with my thumb nail.

It seems that powders on the faster side are giving me better accuracy and consistency. Am I imagining that?

[windrider919]

Congratulations, glad we (Smokeless PP) could help! I see that you have almost duplicated my loading procedure for .458, good to know it has been 'independently verified' by another shooter.

I also had some good results with H4198, H322 and Reloader7 in different 458's....one would work extremely well in a rifle but not in another one but I find one of the three powders will always work.

Yes, the 'faster' powders seem to give better accuracy for me.

I AM seriously considering picking up a CZ...VERY well made action!

My best/most favorite 458 was a 300 Weatherby I re-barreled when working for the gunsmith Ron Freshour as a 'apprentice' during the '80's. The finishing reamer he had was old and when we re-sharpened it, gave me a throat of .461 instead of the SAMMI usual of .464 or .465. It also had less freebore than the spec called for. That rifle was where I discovered just how accurate a 458 could be. Of course, the action IS longer which allowed bullets to be seated out to the rifling, too. Had about $700.00 invested in it (Shilen match barrel was just $88.00 back then, and I re-stocked with a Reijnhart Fagin Premium walnut stock to fit the new #6 barrel taper, 90% inleted stock: $140.00 ) but after showing off its accuracy with j-bullets [2" at 100 yds] of various weights then proudly shooting some of the first PP bullets I ever made (thats when I got into PP, working up new loads for that 458, which by the way were ALL done to the BP bore specs and loaded with BP. Did not switch to smokeless and find out how different it was for several years!!!) for several 5 shot groups, every one under an inch...a guy on the range offered me $2500.00 CASH right then and there, for the rifle, dies and moulds and all the bullets i had for it...in other words, "lock, stock and barrel" ....and all the load data PLUS I had to re-load all the empty brass I had with the PP bullets. Hey, it was 1983 and I had a new wife with a kid on the way...that sale paid all his birth expenses. But, I have been trying to recreate that rifle ever since, once with a stock Winchester African 458 {sold at a loss to keep from smashing it agaist a tree, Winchester should have been ashamed to let it out the door!}, once with a re-barreled Remington 700 {once again offered 'too much' for me to resist and since it was not up to my old dream rifle, I would start again..}...and currently with a re-barreled Ruger 77 {and so far I HAVE resisted all the offers, but if the right action were to cross m path....}. Maybe someday I will run across a donor Weatherby action that is affordable...or perhaps 'my' rifle ver.02...or is it ver.03 by now? is hiding in a CZ somewhere.

It is funny, ever notice how the guy that is not that good a shot, but who talks a lot, just has to have a 'proven' rifle to brag about...oh well, as long as their money is green and stacks high enough! But what REALLY irked me was he had me reloading for him when he DID shoot the rifle...THEN he got a job in some country in AFRICA a a 'Game Management Officer"!!!!! Worst shot in the club and walked as noisy/clumsy as a cow yet he got hired!!!! Ego the size of a bowling ball and BBs lower down from the way his personality was. Got married to some South African woman and worked till he retired I heard a few years ago.....and he carried MY rifle as 'his' all during that time....ARAGCH!!!!! The AGONY of it all!!!!! I am STILL ...urinated....about it after all these years.

[offshore44]

If you are ever out in Oregon, you are welcome to shoot mine to give a CZ a test run windrider. I'd give you access to the reloading bench and the rifle; I'd learn something and you'd get a chance to wring out a CZ. An interesting tid-bit on the big bore Cz rifles: the claw extractor is designed to "snap" over the rim of a cartridge, so they can be single loaded right from the factory. Pac-Nor has a "no throat" reamer for the 458 that sounds interesting, but then I'd loose that nice hammer forged CZ barrel and the nice safari sights. Oh well, maybe if I ever build a custom 458 that would be the way to go. The only thing I'd change on my CZ is the safety. The one it has is perfectly adequate, but I prefer the the three position Dakota / Winchester style. ( Well, I REALLY like the one on my wife's old Czech 7mm Mauser, but that would be a total custom job.)

Interesting story on the Weatherby conversion. Those are nice rifles, but man are they spendy these days. Old saying: "Beware the quit man with only one rifle. He is probably a very good shot." The reverse is also true.

[bigted]

Whoo Hooo! My 458 CZ now, officially, shoots better than I do!

I got up into the hills today for a little shooting, took the CZ big bore and a pair of 308's along. I was shooting J-words out of the 308's, so we'll ignore them.

The 458 Win Mag, on the other hand produced a three shot grouping that was less than an inch. I pulled two of the five shots a little (one off of the target backer ) and another low and to the right about four inches. I called both of them, so we'll ignore them as well.

I have been working on shrinking group size off and on for a little while now. The good advice obtained here worked as predicted. Patching to throat size did the final trick. Ended up going 0.003" over bore size to get there though. Sized the boolit to 0.453, patched with 100% cotton vellum and the final size was 0.4635" - 0.464" all the way to the break of the ogive. These dried for 24 hours and were very tight on the boolit. After dry, I put a little JPW on the patches before loading.

I seated these to just touch the throat, which gave me right at a 1/4" into the case. Very tight thumb push fit into a fired case. No case work done other than de and re-priming plus a slight flare. Put 40.0 grains of 5744 into the case and filled the distance between the powder and the boolit base with Dacron. Finished off by taking the flare out with a Lee Factory Crimp Die adjusted out to just take the flare out, and not crimp into the paper jacket.

Recoil was very moderate compared to some of my other loads. Perfect "poof" of confetti through the scope. The bore was spotless!

I only loaded ten to test out the changes, and now I wish I had loaded the rest of my brass up.

offshore...been following along here and i cant remember what the boolit is or what the final size is for your success...please?

my 458 is a re-worked ruger with a ruger takeoff barrel. i have the works in a new "rubber" stock from hoag in the present ruger configuration. i really love this rifle but...it has the short mag well so a no-go for the long seated boolits from the mag.

have you ever used cornmeal or cream of wheat for your filler?

[offshore44]

offshore...been following along here and i cant remember what the boolit is or what the final size is for your success...please?

my 458 is a re-worked ruger with a ruger takeoff barrel. i have the works in a new "rubber" stock from hoag in the present ruger configuration. i really love this rifle but...it has the short mag well so a no-go for the long seated boolits from the mag.

have you ever used cornmeal or cream of wheat for your filler?

No problem bigted!

The boolit is a Saeco #018. It is supposed to weigh 405 grains when cast in Lyman #2 alloy. Saeco also makes a 350 grn and a 465 grn version of this same mould. Both of those are gas checked. The 350 grn is actually pretty accurate when pushed to about 2500 fps with a case full of H4895. faster than that and accuracy goes down hill a little. The 465 grn gas checked boolit is really a non-entity for my uses. It is almost identical to the 405 grn, with the addition of a gas check shank. Hard to believe that there is 60 grns of lead in the gas check shank. It may become useful if I get the gas check shank taken out.

The #018 is a grease groove design without a gas check shank. It has a bore riding nose that measures, stock, right at 0.451" I beagled the mold to drop a boolit that has a 0.453" to 0.454" bore riding nose on it. I bought a Lee push through sizer and "honed" it out so that the boolit can be sized to 0.4535" to 0.454" This boolit has a fairly large meplat and a pretty short ogive. Nice shape, but kinda blunt looking. I like the nose shape of the windrider boolit better. By a happy coincidence, seating the boolit a 1/4" into the case puts the case mouth right into the middle of the second groove. I have been messing about with crimping into that groove to prevent boolit set back, without a lot of success. It also puts the nose gently in contact with the leade. After putting the patch on, it measures out at 0.4635 - 0.464". This is a Very firm thumb push fit into the fired, unsized case. My right thumb is now my bullet seating die. Sometimes I need to finish seating the boolit with my press. Not always though.

The final COL is 3.320".

I just started messing about with filler, and decided to try Dacron first. It works. I haven't tried corn meal or Cream of Wheat yet. I may not, the Dacron seems to be working so far. Corn meal or COW may be a possible solution to boolit set back though, giving it a second thought. They aren't as compressible as Dacron, I believe. It won't take much.

Hope that helps!

[bigted]

cool...thanks for the info and sharing your success with us all.

[offshore44]

cool...thanks for the info and sharing your success with us all.

You're welcome! Glad to share.

Very little of this success was based on original ideas that I had. The vast majority of the techniques came from these pages. It's like cooking in a way, a little of this and little of that...mess about until it tastes good.

Now...on to the 8mm Mauser... I have to develop a paper patch load that justifies the extra effort involved. I already have a GCGG load that is amazingly accurate. Well, amazing to me anyway for a $100 rifle. Then the .308, and then the .303...and then, ? It never seems to end.

[bigted]

i completely agree...so many things to do for fun and so little time to devote to the persuit of this happiness!!!

i also agree with the things that come from these pages. ive learned so many small things and big ones that cut my learning curve to a fairly short one...and all thanks to the things i glean from these posts on this terrific forum.

[windrider919]

Ran across these drawings of my design and thought you might be interested. Twist determined the bullet length. The reason for the flat nose is because every round nose gets the flat anyway if it is in the 458 magazine when fired. It only does it so much but it tends to be a little uneven mushrooming...so I standardized it by having a meplat in the mould. This flat does the trick and NO damage happens now since it is pre-flattened. Note that the math shows only a couple of points difference in the flight characteristics of the round nose version and the one with the little meplat! Yet if you calculate what you lose with a distorted nose...big loss...so better to lose a little BC points and gain consistency/accuracy. Also note that although it is not much there is some bore rider built in to the nose. The weight was selected as the lightest (for recoil purposes) that still had the qualities of a long range 1000yd bullet. And of course, the micro-groove was to hold the PP using smokeless after so much poor results with smooth sided bullets and paper rings in the chamber and leading due to patch slipping, etc. A rebated boat tail was tried but takes a LOT of work making a 'cup'/sabot to keep it from riveting on firing...more work than the few percent of efficiency the BT gives so dropped it.

Here is mine -

Dia as cast - .455 (sized PRE-PP to .4525 then PP to .462/3 & NO further sizing), weight - 460gr




And for FYI, Here is the Wasserburger Mile extra LR / Money Bullet

[geargnasher]

Just a thought, is there any way you guys with the extra-long magazines could contact-cement a strip of closed-cell polyurathane foam in the front of the mag well to cushion those noses under recoil a bit?

Gear