BNH Vs. Speed

[JIMinPHX]

I've been working up loads for a snub nose .44 & I seem to have found the speed at which my alloy no longer holds up to the force applied by the twist of the rifling. The picture below says it all. The red lines show how much width the grooves left on the boolit. I was pushing these with 10 grains of Unique. I got different speeds by adjusting the seating depth of the boolit.

[fredj338]

What is your recovery medium? Did you boil the lube out for the pics?

[JIMinPHX]

Those were shot into crumb rubber. The 1100fps ones went about 21" deep. The slower ones went more like 19" or maybe 20" deep. The boolits shown are as-recovered. I didn't clean them up at all. The lube was a mixture of Lyman Super Moly & Orange Magic. I didn't intentionally mix the two. There was some moly left in the lubber when I loaded the Orange Magic. I would estimate the lube to be about 90% Orange Magic.

[Buckshot]

..............So you're showing that the grooves were beginning to wipe the lands out, eh? Common WW is supposed to be somewhere around 11 bhn so you're a couple points harder. Have you ever tried pure lead, and done the same test, but starting at a lower velocity?

...............Buckshot

[JIMinPHX]

The alloy is recovered bird shot + 1% tin. It normally comes up slightly harder than WW. I just loaded up some of the same 1100fps rounds, duplicating everything, except using water dropped boolits that come up around 23-24bnh. I'll try them as soon as I get a chance & see how different they look.

I have not tried the same thing with pure lead or a softer alloy than I am using now.

I'm a little puzzled because I've pushed the same alloy a little faster in 9mm & .357 mag, and also a LOT faster in .223 & .30 cal without the groove marks getting wiped out like this. I'm sure that the amount of bearing surface has something to do with the other boolits holding up better, but I'm beginning to wonder if the diameter makes a difference too. Maybe the torque applied to the boolit by the grooves increases in direct proportion to the increase in diameter & the inertial resistance of the boolit increases as a square function of the diameter or something like that. I'll have to look up some formulas that I probably haven't used in over 10 years & see what the math looks like before I can make an educated conjecture about that.

Has anyone out there got any thoughts about that?

[45 2.1]

Boy, is this one gonna generate some disagreement................ If you study this for awhile, your going to see that other alloy types and different powders will have different results. What you show is for your alloy and powder choice which will be different than others combinations.

[44man]

The heavier boolit has more inertia then the smaller calibers.
10 gr of Unique is HARD on a boolit, punching it too fast right at the beginning. Slower powder will help correct the problem.
My work with the .44 has shown I could not get accuracy until I reached 28 BHN, using the fast powders. And that was with a light boolit of 245 gr.
When I plink with this boolit I water drop WW boolits and only use 7 gr of Unique. 22 BHN can just take it at that point. For 296 I get the best accuracy at around 25 BHN and the heavy weights.
Unique and pure lead???? I don't think so!
If you want to cure skid, make the boolits HARD. Make them .001" to .002" over bore size, better yet, fit the throats.
I refuse to shoot soft lead and every single problem has been solved by making a better alloy and making the boolit harder.

[44man]

Looking at those pictures makes me think they started life as a Keith. I see a portion of a shoulder until the last one.
SLUMP! Classic soft lead problems.
The barrel was most likely leaded too.

[243winxb]

but I'm beginning to wonder if the diameter makes a difference

What is your barrels groove diameter? How large were the bullets when dropped from the mould? What diameter were they sized to?

[cajun shooter]

If using bird shot in the alloy you can have two different out comes on which shot was used. If chilled shot was used then it will be softer than if Magnum shot was used. I know you are aware of this but failed to mention which was chosen.

[45 2.1]

I refuse to shoot soft lead and every single problem has been solved by making a better alloy and making the boolit harder.

Excellent advice............ if you want a cast version of a full metal jacket. What, you need expansion...... no need, just shoot a cannon that will effect your nerves later in life.

When I plink with this boolit I water drop WW boolits and only use 7 gr of Unique. 22 BHN can just take it at that point.

I'm really surprised you would say something like this Jim. That amount of Unique is under a starting load in a 44 Mag (I believe thats the smallest handgun you've said you own) that gives 800 fps or less........hard to imagine anyone needing a very hard boolit just to plink with..... let alone all the other people in the world that use really soft boolits at this level, and all the manufacturers that use swaged soft boolits in factory loads. Elmer himself used a less than WW hardness boolit to shoot excellent groups out of an iron sighted full load 44 Mag. His load still works fine and is extremely accurate. Why can't you see this?

[targetshootr]

The one on the right looks like a different kind of boolit than the others and it show the most difference between red lines.

[StarMetal]

Ten grains of Unique under a Saeco .429 TCN was my target plinking load for my Smith 629. It was deadly accurate and darn good load. I'm not buying 10 grains of Unique is bad or that hard on the cast bullet.

I have a Smith 25 45 Colt that skips worse then that with lots of alloys and it's about THE most accurate revolver I own. 44man will attest to the 100 yard groups with it using iron sights. As long as I get groups I'm getting and it's not leading my barrel, I don't care what the bullets look like after shooting them. I feel the major difference in revolver then any other type of firearm is the bullet having to jump from the cylinder to the rifled bore. Shoot those same loads in something else that doesn't have a cylinder, say like a lever rifle in the same caliber and I bet you'll see a difference then. Don't forget that the bullet is traveling pretty fast by the time it passes the forcing cone. It's hard for the rifling to put the brakes on the bullet without some skidding.

[JIMinPHX]

The 3 boolits were all from an old Ideal (now Lyman) 429244 mold. They were all the same alloy. They were all air cooled. The extra slump of the right boolit may have been caused by it hitting another boolit inside the boolit trap. I picked that one boolit to put in the picture because it had a good representative rifling line on it. I think that there were others from that set that didn't slump like that. I'll see if I can find some more to photograph, but I may have thrown them all into the melting pot last night. I'll have to look.

The front shoulder on the right boolit may have been wiped out because that one had a firm roll crimp over the shoulder & the roll crimp may have wiped the shoulder off when when the round got fired. The others were seated out further & the front shoulders on them were forward of the crimp before firing.

45 2.1's concept about the fast powder being the problem is interesting. I'll try this with some H-110 when I get a chance & see what happens.

10 grains of Unique is what I was using. At standard book COAL for the .44 mag, I got the results on the right side of the picture, so what .44 man says about that charge being too hard on the boolit looks to be correct in this particular example. I suspect that StarMetal had better results with 10 grains behind his TCN because that boolit had more bearing surface, but that's just a guess on my part.

The groove diameter on this gun is a few thousandths bigger than the throats, so I expect that I am going to get some leading no matter what I do. I sized the boolits a half thousandth bigger than the throats. The throats have been coming out lead-free, so I think that I'm OK there.

The leading that I see is just forward of the forcing cone & not all that bad, so I'm just living with it for now. This thing is a snubby that I use as a defensive gun & don't plan on shooting real often, so a little leading is not that big of a deal to me. It's not worth re-barreling or reaming the throats for the amount of ammo that I plan to put through this thing.

The shot that I melted was recovered from a skeet field, so it's a random mix from whatever shells were shot there. I don't know the material's actual pedigree.

[44man]

I refuse to shoot soft lead and every single problem has been solved by making a better alloy and making the boolit harder.

Excellent advice............ if you want a cast version of a full metal jacket. What, you need expansion...... no need, just shoot a cannon that will effect your nerves later in life.

When I plink with this boolit I water drop WW boolits and only use 7 gr of Unique. 22 BHN can just take it at that point.

I'm really surprised you would say something like this Jim. That amount of Unique is under a starting load in a 44 Mag (I believe thats the smallest handgun you've said you own) that gives 800 fps or less........hard to imagine anyone needing a very hard boolit just to plink with..... let alone all the other people in the world that use really soft boolits at this level, and all the manufacturers that use swaged soft boolits in factory loads. Elmer himself used a less than WW hardness boolit to shoot excellent groups out of an iron sighted full load 44 Mag. His load still works fine and is extremely accurate. Why can't you see this?

That is exactly what you want, a cast boolit as hard as a jacketed so it takes the rifling. No, you will never convince me that soft lead is better. Elmer shot good groups, never excellent or super. Sorry, I was a follower of Elmer but found better. He was ecstatic with 1" at 25 yards. With all the group pictures I have posted, not a single person has EVER shown better with soft boolits.
All the other people in the world do not know what a revolver can really do and "go bang" with a hole somewhere in the paper is great for them. There is not a single person here that has shot 1" or less at 100 yards with a revolver except by accident. An accident is just that too. No, you have to show me as I have shown. My revolvers will out shoot many rifles at 100 yards or 500 meters for that matter.
There is ZERO need for expansion in the .44, .45, .475 and .500 because the velocity is correct. Now the 45-70 is too fast and NEEDS expansion for deer but that is where accuracy suffers with softer boolits. I go from 5 shots in 5/16" with hard to 1" with fliers by making boolits softer, at 50 yards. Good enough for deer.
Why would you need expansion with a WLN or WFN in the .44? If I could pile up all the deer at your front door shot with these I would, if it would help. Sorry, I ate them!
The .44 is a mild ***** cat and so is the .45 Colt. The .475 lets you know the gun went off. We spent all day Saturday shooting a .500 JRH, I am none the worse for wear and I am 72+. Been shooting the .44 since 1956, nice, easy going little gun. Even with 320 and 330 gr boolits it feels like a .38.
But you have never proven me wrong, you just keep saying what others have done and if you really go back, you will see what they claim or did was not what I get, not by a long shot.
I do not believe anyone has EVER, EVER shot the groups I get with cast boolits at any distance with revolvers right out of the box. No fancy $3000 guns that I will beat anyway.
I am leaving the gate open so you can enter and show soft boolit groups, come on in.
You notice how light my plinking load is----good start. From that point on the boolit needs to be HARDER as the load is increased but since I use water dropped WW's, 7 gr is the limit unless I want more expensive alloys. What you forget is the extreme pressure punch with fast powder that ruins boolits.

[303Guy]

Not dissagreeing with you, 44Man, but you're talking extreme cutting edge accuracy. We're talking bottom end, lucky to get 1" at 25 yds, 'accuracy'. I started out with quite hard cast boolits in my 44mag. Then one day I recovered a boolit and the land impressions were higher than the 'grooves'. The metal in between had been flame eroded away. I switched to my 'crappy looking' soft alloy and found the accuracy to be much better and recovered boolits had full bore impressions. Had I used correctly sized boolits as you do, I would probably have achieved even better accuracy. You also have scoped guns with good triggers. Mine had fixed iron sights with the rear notch too narrow to aim with and the most horrid trigger. It was a 'Federal Marshall' clone. I loved that gun!

[243winxb]

The groove diameter on this gun is a few thousandths bigger than the throats,

Then the bullet is undersized and you will not get good contact with the lands/grooves. Unless the bullet Obturates (means to block or obstruct). Your bullet is to hard to expand using Unique, plus the gas check..... Your alloy might be as high as 6% antimony, if magnum shot was used , + your tin. I would not heat treat/water drop as your leading will get worse. IMO Edit/add- I shoot 10gr Unique with my cast, very accurate.

[454PB]

That's a gas check design, why not use a gas check?

[243winxb]

Gas checks on the end ones, middle one missing the GC. Unless my eyes are bad.

[44man]

Not dissagreeing with you, 44Man, but you're talking extreme cutting edge accuracy. We're talking bottom end, lucky to get 1" at 25 yds, 'accuracy'. I started out with quite hard cast boolits in my 44mag. Then one day I recovered a boolit and the land impressions were higher than the 'grooves'. The metal in between had been flame eroded away. I switched to my 'crappy looking' soft alloy and found the accuracy to be much better and recovered boolits had full bore impressions. Had I used correctly sized boolits as you do, I would probably have achieved even better accuracy. You also have scoped guns with good triggers. Mine had fixed iron sights with the rear notch too narrow to aim with and the most horrid trigger. It was a 'Federal Marshall' clone. I loved that gun!

I would shoot Creedmore with my SBH at 100 yards and shoot one pop can after another, open sights when I could still see good. Now I use a red dot---NO SCOPE and until you see the difference, you will find the red dot is not easy to shoot groups with. The dot is very large.
Saturday I shot a bunch of water bottles (12 oz) off the 100 yard rail with my .475 and if you looked at them all side by side I would have a 1/2" group. All were centered.
What do you mean by "bottom end?" A revolver is SOOOOO easy to get super accuracy from, there is no need for "bottom end" stuff.
Some guns just will not do it no matter what. Short barrels, clones, dirt cheap guns, etc. Most Ruger's, S&W's, Freedom's, BFR's, etc, WILL shoot better then we can control them. There is no excuse for a poor shooting gun when you load your ammo.
All I can say is harder has always been more accurate and is easier to work a load with. Way too hard might not be good (brittle) and soft never is.