What would General Custer do?

[PappyD]

Fairly new shooter to black powder. Just started loading 45colt with bp. I have read many of the suggestions about lube and basically use a beeswax/crisco/canola oil concoction and pan lube the cast bullets I use.

I have tried a search for this topic but have not found much. I'm sure some of you history buffs might shed some light for me.

Before smokeless powder was available, how many shots could a soldier be expected to fire before his weapon would be so dirty that it would be inoperable?
In a Sharps 45-70? In the Colt, SSA, 45? Was there some sort of lube recipe that we lost? What about Custer's last stand with soldiers pinned down, very little water, and the only way out was to fight to the end? Were there any documented failures?

My experience with my Uberti 45 SA is that I can get maybe 30 shots or so before it gets so dirty as to not function. I usually don't wait that long to touch it up enough to continue.

Just wondering what the troops did back in the day!

[NickSS]

This is an interesting question and I have a lot of knowledge on this subject. First the Cavalry trooper of that day usually was equipped with 60 to 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 to 24 rounds of revolver ammo. The revolver was used for mounted combat when the saber was not. The usual cavalry trooper fought with the carbine when dismounted. Per records Custer's Troops carried 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 rounds of pistol ammo on their horses. Additional ammo was carried on pack animals which reached Reno and Bentine but not Custer even though he sent a trumpeter to have them brought to him. The pack train was turned back by the Indians before it could get to Custer. I have shot upwards of 100 rounds from a trapdoor rifle with black powder without cleaning. The weapon still functioned but accuracy was degraded somewhat. As most soldiers of that era were not very good shots, it probably made little difference. It is also doubtful if the sholdiers lasted long enough to shoot all their ammo away. It was reported by Reno and Bentine that indians were shooting at them with rifles taken from Custers troops. As for a revolver it depends on the revolver. I have shot up to 100 rounds from a Colt SAA clone loaded with black powder. The gun was very dirty and a bit hard to cock and the groups kind of looked like buckshot at 25 yards but most would have hit a man. Besides in a battle if your weapon became unusable there were usually a lot of them laying around to be picked up and used.

[jgraham1]

You also had to remember that very few of the fights required the Troopers to fire all their rounds. Shooting a 100 rounds in a lightweight carbine with full loads, or even the lighter carbine loads, makes one very sore. Many engagements were "hit and run" operations with the indians.

Jerry

[PappyD]

This is an interesting question and I have a lot of knowledge on this subject. First the Cavalry trooper of that day usually was equipped with 60 to 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 to 24 rounds of revolver ammo. The revolver was used for mounted combat when the saber was not. The usual cavalry trooper fought with the carbine when dismounted. Per records Custer's Troops carried 100 rounds of carbine ammo and 18 rounds of pistol ammo on their horses. Additional ammo was carried on pack animals which reached Reno and Bentine but not Custer even though he sent a trumpeter to have them brought to him. The pack train was turned back by the Indians before it could get to Custer. I have shot upwards of 100 rounds from a trapdoor rifle with black powder without cleaning. The weapon still functioned but accuracy was degraded somewhat. As most soldiers of that era were not very good shots, it probably made little difference. It is also doubtful if the sholdiers lasted long enough to shoot all their ammo away. It was reported by Reno and Bentine that indians were shooting at them with rifles taken from Custers troops. As for a revolver it depends on the revolver. I have shot up to 100 rounds from a Colt SAA clone loaded with black powder. The gun was very dirty and a bit hard to cock and the groups kind of looked like buckshot at 25 yards but most would have hit a man. Besides in a battle if your weapon became unusable there were usually a lot of them laying around to be picked up and used.

Wow...100 rounds? What is your lube secret? Another shooter friend of mine has a squeeze tube of crisco that he uses liberally on the cylinder. Just a squeeze dab on the bullet side of the cylinder. Seems to work but the gun is a mess.

Thanks for the backgrounder on cav troopers. Interesting stuff!

[Mike Venturino]

This is one of the Custer Battlefield revolvers that U.S. Firearms started putting out a few years back. I was lucky enough to get serial #1876.



This is the first of four consecutive 12 shot groups fired with it at 25 yards with it mounted in a pistol machine rest. No cleaning between groups. The last 12 shot group was better than this one. Loads were BP only in .45 Schofield cases. There was no binding of the revolver at the end of 48 rounds. I'd have to dig into my records to see exactly what the load consisted of. (By the way, the revolver actually hits point of aim at 25 yards but I don't pay any attention to where it prints when in the machine rest.

[montana_charlie]

Were there any documented failures?

Yes, there were. The most glaring one was that Custer failed to lead his troops with intelligence and sound reasoning.

As for individual reports of weapon failures, nobody lived long enough to submit any...
CM

[iron mule]

pappy sent you a pm on my lube
mule

[405]

Little Bighorn historians need to pipe up on this one. Somewhere in my CRS, semi-senilic memory I think I read of some after the battle inspection evidence or other "finds" on the LBH site suggesting at least a few of the 45-70s suffered case head separation during the battle. Like I said maybe just CRS tho

[docone31]

I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up.
There was an attempt to produce copper ammo. The cartridges had massive amounts of case head seperation during battle.
I am just glad I wasn't there for all that.

[doubs43]

The .45-70 cases of the day were made of copper or a high copper content metal. It was found that only a certain number of rounds could be safely fired per minute without cases sticking and the rims of the cases being torn through by the extractor. In the heat of the battle, that number was exceeded and there are reports of numerous broken pocket knives being found along side the bodies of the troopers; broken as they tried to pry the stuck cases from the chambers of their rifles.

Indian accounts of the battle indicate that Custer may have been one of the very first to be killed and that resulted in confusion among the officers and troopers who failed to establish a cohesive defensive line. Many were broken into small groups and destroyed piecemeal.

On that day the Indians chose the ground and had better leaders. But, it was a pyrrhic victory for the Indians as there could only be one outcome to the war.

Some of the best evidence was found a number of years back after a brush fire burned over much of the battlefield. A lot of new discoveries were made in the way of artifacts that helped to explain the events of the day.

[Don McDowell]

Part of the problem was the carbine load itself. The lower pressure generated by the 55 gr load tends to foul pretty heavy, then you add the oppressive heat and the dirt and crud that most likely had settled into the bullet lube and bullets, there's a disaster about to happen. Keep in mind the ammo those troopers carried had been in their belts for about 3 weeks on the trail. The main ingredient of the military lube is bayberry wax.
The only cohesive line from Custers command was Keoghs, most everybody else was ran down and shot like dogs. Custer was a freakin idiot that made some horrificly horrible decisions that got 286 good men killed including his brothers and a favored nephew. The accounts from the Indians later say that Custers part in the battle probably lasted about 30 minutes.
If you have never been to the Little Bighorn you need to go. You can still feel the fear, and anger, and smell the death in that place.

[jgraham1]

Put what doubs43 and Don McDowell said about the cartridge itself and add in the idiot that Custer was and it can only spell disaster for everyone involved.

Someday I will travel there and to Gettysburg just to look at them.

[PappyD]

Part of the problem was the carbine load itself. The lower pressure generated by the 55 gr load tends to foul pretty heavy, then you add the oppressive heat and the dirt and crud that most likely had settled into the bullet lube and bullets, there's a disaster about to happen. Keep in mind the ammo those troopers carried had been in their belts for about 3 weeks on the trail. The main ingredient of the military lube is bayberry wax.
The only cohesive line from Custers command was Keoghs, most everybody else was ran down and shot like dogs. Custer was a freakin idiot that made some horrificly horrible decisions that got 286 good men killed including his brothers and a favored nephew. The accounts from the Indians later say that Custers part in the battle probably lasted about 30 minutes.
If you have never been to the Little Bighorn you need to go. You can still feel the fear, and anger, and smell the death in that place.

This may be a little off topic but I'm the OP so.....Can you recommend a good read or two on the battle? (Little Bighorn battle)

I have been to Gettysburg twice and have pretty good knowledge of the events there. Last trip I sat with my 3 sons, (14, 16, 19) on the front slope of Little Round Top until closing time. It was almost creepy looking down on Devil's Den. My oldest said there was some "powerful mojo" working in that place.

Thanks for the great info!

[Mike Venturino]

Probably a good overview of both Custer and the battle would be Son of The Morning Star. Its not perfect. There are a few mistakes but its a good read. The author is a talented writer.

As for the 7th's guns, this is most likely the load they were issued for their .45 Colts. Note the date and powder charge on the box.



MLV

[Don McDowell]

You know the only "good" read I can recommend is the archeoligist report compiled after the fire. I have it, but can't think of the name of it at the moment. But it sort of drolls on in places, but the maps and the "ballistic" evidence are really fascinating.
Most of the books on the battle are slanted pretty heavily either pro Custer (most of them) or anti Custer. So you have to take grain of salt with what's inside. Amazon and Alibris are good places to search up books on Custer, and the little bighorn.
Some of the more telling accounts of the battle can be picked up in snipits from various books about the region at the time, alot of the Indian accounts are probably the more accurate of what has been written afterwards.
You can get the reprints of the Army field manual for the Springfield from various sources, and it has the recipe for the Military bullet lube .

[semtav]

Another very good book is Sixty Six Years in Custer's Shadow
by Henry Weibert. He grew up on the ground where Reno fought. He debunked a lot of the earlier theories on how the battle was fought.
Hard to find at a reasonable price but well worth the effort to obtain if you are a real Custer Buff.

[semtav]

Little Bighorn historians need to pipe up on this one. Somewhere in my CRS, semi-senilic memory I think I read of some after the battle inspection evidence or other "finds" on the LBH site suggesting at least a few of the 45-70s suffered case head separation during the battle. Like I said maybe just CRS tho

I think a lot of the Case head separation was from extracting stuck cases. in many places that a case head was found, a broken knife was also found. And some were found with a piece of rawhide in the separated case. ( a technique the Indians used to extract the case)

[shooter575]

There are a bunch of us here that shoot BP cartridge in rapid fire team events. Anyway in my trapdoor I have shot 70 rounds with out wiping.I am using 55 gr ff Goex w/COW filler and the Lee HB boolit and just a tad of compression when seating.No drop tube compression die blow tube or any of that fancy stuff. My lube is BW and olive oil I have a winter and summer mix.
That said we are shooting offhand at hanging breakable targets at 50 or 100 yd usualy.
3-4" @ 50 yd & 6-8" @ 100 yd. So these are not long range paper punching loads.
But we do have a blast

[shooter575]

BTW I can clean up the barrel with 3-4 patches,no leading

[mooman76]

The history channel had a show covering this and other battles where they would actually go to the sites and search for clues and to what happened and compare to the writings. They traced the spent cartridges with metal detectors to help piece it together. It might have been called Battlefield Detective or something like that.