You guys were right about the 6.5x55...

[StarMetal]

O.S.O.K.

Some of the posts in this thread with all the master teacher stuff and special secrets are enough to gag a maggot. Just shoot the thing down in the 1600 fps range and you won't have any trouble and it'll shoot. From reading your posts it's obvious you know what you're doing you're just trying to shoot it too fast. I really don't understand the big deal behind shooting a Swede fast anyway. At 1600 it'll shoot good and drill right through anything you shoot it at. In my opinion it's too small to be used for any larger game with cast and there's enough good jacketed bullets that'll do that for you if that's your intent.

Well if you read what O.S.O.K. first posted it's obvious in his first attempt that the bullet was going too slow to stabilize. Then Waksupi made his smart remark about the Swede won't shoot fast, so began the agrument again. Wasn't long before Larry and 45 2.1 got in on it. If some post choke a maggot such as you say why you even reading it and posting? You didn't learn your lesson over on the Accurate forum when Larry and I were going at it and you said my 6.5 Grendel wouldn't do 2400 fps with a 140 bullet with 4198. That it would blow the rifle up. Just showed you didn't know squat about the 6.5 Grendel cartridge or the AR15.

The secret rifle was just to have a little fun and spice the posts up some.

I have the test result from the secret rifle and I'm debating whether to post them or not. I know the first thing Larry will say and that's that I have another exception rifle. Let's see, that makes three, possibly four, exception rifles I have then. I don't think so. There was no bigger critic of 45 2.1 and his techniques then me. Isn't that a surprise. Everyone would think Larry was his biggest critic. I've had countless arguments with 45 2.1 over this. It's like Einsteins theories (and don't take that statement and screw it around to something that it's not) the more people tried/try to prove Einstein wrong the more they found he was right. Ditto with 45 2.1's technique. Well it all came together and as hard as it was to get there, the whole concept of it really is easy.

Yeah, nobody is getting anything out of this post at all and I agree.

Larry's description of how to reload for cast is very good...for the beginners. Anyone that knows anything about accurate shooting or competition, like Felix, knows that already. Probably one of the first accuracy tricks anyone learns is neck sizing produces better groups then full length sizing. Yes there are many rifles that shoot full length sized cartridges very good. Larry even covered bullet fit, thick necks, fast and slow powders....but he still didn't mention keeping the powder combustion heat off the bullet.

Two predictions because the Cast Boolit crowd is so predictable. One: Larry will make excuses with my groups even though I followed his instructions. Two: This thread will get locked by the administrators because velocity/rpm threads always do.

Joe

[Pat I.]

I read and posted for the same reason I would slow down at a train wreck, I don't really want to but can't help myself. Nice historical rewrite of the Accurate debate though but you left a major portion out.

Looking at the OP's loads and estimated velocity I don't think they'd be going too slow to stabilize a 150 gr bullet. The OP also said he wasn't interested in paper patching so if you're suggesting a wad or filler to keep the heat off the bullet just say so. If you're talking about PPing just say that too.

I can't understand why a simple question can't get a simple answer can you? Nothing can be that complicated can it? If something was puzzling to someone I'm sure there's enough people here that would be willing to help out or translate.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

Go ahead and post your test results from your "secret" rifle. However, this thread is about the 6.5 Swede in a milsurp rifle so if your "secret" rifle is not a milsurp 6.5 Swede mighten' it be better to start your own thread? That way we could discuss the merits of your "secret" rifle based on itself and not in comparison to the topic of this thread. One suggestion if you start a new thread; this time post all the information this time instead of a partial amount. If we are to assess or make a judgement then we need all of the information.

Thank you for prejudging what I will think/say. As usual you could be wrong.

Assuming you are refering to your own post with; "nobody is getting anything out of this post at all and I agree". We are in agreement there

BTW; if "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff?

Larry Gibson

[45nut]

This thread will get locked by the administrators because velocity/rpm threads always do.

Joe

I will certainly make it a priority to leave this and other such threads open simply because I find the subjects quite interesting myself,,all we need is for everyone to stay on topic and leave the name calling behind..Deal?

This IS a discussion board first and foremost,, it is not somewhere to hurl insults back and forth. That's why every thread gets locked, if everyone can leave that out.. we are golden!

I for one am quite aware of conflicting personalities and techniques and conclusions such threads off, but I am also quite aware the same factors can result in advances in our craft by such threads.

< not Einstein here!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I think the best thing or your post,would be for you to contact Wiljen, and see if it could be placed as an article on Castpics. Too good a summary to just sit as a sticky.

Waksupi

I have forwarded the article to Wiljen for posting in CastPics. I edited the article for spelling, grammer and content. I also added a couple things so you might want to read it there also when posted.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Starmetal (Joe)

Go ahead and post your test results from your "secret" rifle. However, this thread is about the 6.5 Swede in a milsurp rifle so if your "secret" rifle is not a milsurp 6.5 Swede mighten' it be better to start your own thread? That way we could discuss the merits of your "secret" rifle based on itself and not in comparison to the topic of this thread. One suggestion if you start a new thread; this time post all the information this time instead of a partial amount. If we are to assess or make a judgement then we need all of the information.

Thank you for prejudging what I will think/say. As usual you could be wrong.

Assuming you are refering to your own post with; "nobody is getting anything out of this post at all and I agree". We are in agreement there

BTW; if "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff?

Larry Gibson

Larry,

See, you're throwing a fly in the ointment already. Never the less I will post the targets and begin a big reply. First let's start with......

Yes I don't own a Swede. It doesn't make a whole lot of difference what the twist is on. Yes I know there are unique characteristics of the Swede chamber. Rifling is rifling unless it's really something totally strange or different such as pologonal. In fact the rifle which I am about to disclose has shallower rifling then the Swede so that should make it harder to shoot at HV if anything. Here is the picture of the rifle:


Okay, what it is: No Scot not a 6.5x47 Lapua although that is one fine caliber. It's an old model 110 Savage action that I acquired from KSCO...might add he's a very gracious man. The barrel is a Lothar Walter stainless....and the long awaited caliber (nothing new here folks) is the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. The rifling twist is 8. This is very very close to the 6.5 Swede...but makes no difference because HV is HV which Larry says is tied forever to rpm. Supposedly nothing out of his rpm range will shoot. Well we shall soon see. I done the 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 meters, yes meters, not yards and I'm still scanning. They will be in my next post.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Okay, let's begin. First the bullet. It's the 6.5 group buy graciously cast and donated to me by 45 2.1. Let me tell you they were very well casted bullets. Gas: Mine...I make my own tools and cut them out of aluminum. Here's the bullet:



The brass is 7x57 Mauser swaged down by me. By that I mean I had to make tools to swage the head area down which takes much pressure. You cannot do this with a full length resizing die. The load is 29 grains of Accurate 2495. Now Larry please forgive me if I didn't chrono the whole 25 shots because I got through 15 and it started to rain. Also please forgive me if it's not 2400 fps as the average is 2320 which brings us to 208,800 rpm which is well out of your rpm threshold. Here's proof of 15 shots:

Here's the average:

Here's the standard deviation:

Here's the extreme spread:


Yeah, I know, there are lube dents on my chrono screen. Next post are the five targets.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Okay, now the targets. First picture is a pic of all the target because I don't want any poop they were the same target or whatever:

Target #1

Target #2

Target #3

Target #4

Target #5


Look and weep non believers. 45 2.1's technique (that doesn't mean he invented it, means he taught it to me) seems to work at HV. If I took more time, weighed the bullets, etc., etc., I could probably one hole them. I wanted to get this done and it was some work. I had to make the gas checks, load the rounds, shoot them (between rain I might add), scan and post all this.

So what do you say now Larry, Tpr Bret, Waksupi, Pat I, and all others that say it can't be done? So far I've done with this new rifle, my AR15, my Sako 7mm-08, and 6.5 Grendel. Sorry about being a little smart ass about this, but really tired of getting ragged by Larry and others. I get some really rotten post from members about this.

I could have bought this barrel and caliber in a faster twist, but I wanted it in the slowest available from LW just to show Larry and others the 6.5 can be shot at HV and out of his rpm threshold.

One final last thing. The technique can be dangerous if not done correctly. It's a pressure raiser for sure. 45 2.1 knows me and quizzed/talked to me by phone for quite some time before he decided that I could do it without blowing my rifles up hurting myself. That's the real reason he won't tell all of you, nor will I.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

As usual I forgot something. I shot all those groups with a dirty barrel. Yup, I didn't want to clean and have a fouling shot I would have to defend on the target. Lord knows how many rounds have been through that barrel before the group too! Also forgot to mention that the lube was LBT Blue soft. Testimonial, at least to me, how well it conditions your bore.

Joe
P.S. I'm looking for a M38 Swede by the way.

[45nut]

I know a M 96 Carl Gustav that just might be available Joe.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

No fly in the ointment, you want to hijack this thread then so be it as long as every one else is in agreement.

That obviously is a nice custom barreled rifle and it shoots very nicely. It is a far cry from a milsurp Swede which was, in fact, the topic of this thread and the topic of my article. Let me point out that you continually infer that the RPM threshold I refer to is a “limit” that can not be gone above and maintain any accuracy with cast bullets. Let me tell you once again, like I have so many times in the past that that is not the case at all. I have repeatedly stated that you can go above the RPM threshold only that it is difficult to do so. At least you agree that it is difficult to do so. Accuracy at high velocity is tied forever to RPM. It just is a little more difficult to control than when the velocity/RPM is under the RPM threshold.

Nice picture of the bullet. You could have given us the weight of the bullet though. That’s part of the information I asked for. A little more information would have been nice. I was nice enough to ask for all of the information but as usual you neglect to provide it. I understand you not wanting to weigh every bullet but weighing one and giving us the weight wouldn’t have killed you, would it? Anyways 45 2.1’s GB bullet looks an awful lot like a 266455 with a FN on it. Strange that 45 2.1 and I seem to agree on what the best design for such is, don’t you think? I shall assume the bullet, fully dressed weighs in between 130 and 140 grs. Appears the lube is LBT Soft?

Forming the cases from 7x57 cases should give you a bit smaller case capacity than Norma cases and possibly thicker necks also.

“The load is 29 grains of Accurate 2495.” Ok, so you are using AAs 4895 and 29 gr you get 2320 fps out what length barrel?

I’ll take your targets at face value and congratulate you on your success. I’ll also remind you that I never said it couldn’t be done. It is you, and a couple others, who keep saying that.

Now I will call BS on one thing, you state;

“The technique can be dangerous if not done correctly. It's a pressure raiser for sure. 45 2.1 knows me and quizzed/talked to me by phone for quite some time before he decided that I could do it without blowing my rifles up hurting myself. That's the real reason he won't tell all of you, nor will I.”

Now, the fact that the max load for 4895 in the Lyman Manual for a 160 gr jacketed bullet is 34 gr, for a 140 gr jacketed bullet it is 36 gr and for the 129 gr jacketed bullet it is 38 gr. I have loaded for the 6.5 MS and know what the max loads are for those bullets and Lyman's manual is correct. Given my experience with the 6.5 MS and the loading data available quite frankly I do not by that "dangerous and a pressure raiser for sure" part and I don’t think anyone else other than 45 2.1 will either. Thus can you explain how a load of 29 gr of an equivalent 4895 is “dangerous” with a 130-140 gr cast bullet? If something is 'dangerous" isn't it rather childish and contraire to safety for you not to tell us?

BTW; I kindly asked you to answer 2 questions; "the whole concept of it really is easy" and you know how to "keep(ing) the powder combustion heat off the bullet" then why don't you just tell us instead of all the "secret" stuff ?” It would be nice and it would lend a lot of credibility to your posts if you would answer those 2 questions.

One additional question; can you please now tell us how to shoot such cast bullet groups at such velocity in a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with original sights? That was the topic of this thread you know, or perhaps you don’t know that.

Again, congrats on some fine high velocity shooting with cast bullets and your ability to push the RPM threshold with them. I told you it could be done and apparently you've succeeded. I see nor read nothing in your last post that is a “secret” to your success. It appears to be almost exactly how I said to do it in my post here and how I’ve said to do it on numerous other threads. Nice to know you and 45 2.1 are paying attention to my testing and writings regarding the results and how to push the RPM threshold. Obviously neither of you will admit to that and will no doubt go off on some rant about it. Fact is, as I said in my article; “There is no secret to any of the techniques I use as all of the information is available in Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook, the NRA Cast bullet supplements and numerous other publications.”

You have shown us that it can be done following the steps I outlined and by using a nice custom barreled rifle with a scope on it. Well done in that regard.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Joe, I don't recall ever saying that it couldn't be done in the bore size. I have always held it is very difficult to do in a military Swede.

[StarMetal]

I know a M 96 Carl Gustav that just might be available Joe.

Ken is it a Model 38?

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal (Joe)

Now you have gone and done it.....got me all riled up and I had to go pull one of my 6.5 Swedes out of the gun safe. It is a SR Mexican M98 action piller bedded and MicroBed'd into a Fajen stock. The barrel was a new "in the white" M38 barrel milsurp that was easy to screw on the action. Headsapce is tight as with cases that are completely FL sized in the RCBS FL diie can just be felt as the bolt is closed on them. It has a 9X scope on it and she shoots into sub moa with 120 gr Sierra's and 129 gr Hornadys. Trigger is a Timney and breaks clean at 2 lbs. I've not done any cast bullet work with it yet. I put it together before I went to iraq, did some intial tests with known loads and then put it in the gun safe and haven't had it out shooting since. My other HV load testing has been with my M38 scout with a Leupold 2X scout scope on it. It shoots well enough but the 2X scope leaves something to be desired for serious group testing. Attached is a picture of the rifle and another of the 266455 bullets (do they look familiar?) with a '06 formed neck of the cartridge. The bullets shown are only partially lubed. I do that when i shoot them down at 1400 fps (fine grouse load when hunting deer).

Darn, I have so little time between now and when winter and hunting season sets in......sometimes you really irritate me as I'll lose sleep over this now

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Well let's recap some of the things you've said here Larry:

Did I tell you of shooting a 10 shot group at high velocity with cast bullets out of my 6.5 Swede? Well 3 of those shots were within MOA so it's an MOA load! All I've got to do is pay attention to the "masters" and figure out what made those 3 shots land within an MOA of each other! As to the other 7 shots? Obviously they landed upards of 8" from the "group" so I must have "torn the rice paper".........

My groups didn't turn out that way today and I have to fool around doing something else until the barrel cooled down some.

You are "seriously" correct. Welcome to the world of "myths, secrets, old wife's tales and witchcraft" regarding cast bullets at high velocity. Go ahead and cast some of 50/50 alloy, HT or WQ them, let them age, slap some LBT Blue on 'em and fill the case up with a slow powder.....go test them and then come back ans some of us will tell you point blank why the accuracy still sucks.

Okay, I did. Tell me my accuracy sucked.

and waksupi said this:

Yeah, that's it. Push the 6.5 a little faster. Yeah

I did and look at how unbent they were and the nice groups they shot....fast.

One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

I shot your prescribed amount of shots and group..from a dirty barrel too.

So go ahead and shoot those bullets faster as you want to, we'll be waiting for your results.

The waiting is over. The excuses begin.

..and this:

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates.

I love the way my accuracy deteriorated today


....and this:

Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

I did.

...and this:

My point exactly. There is nothing "secret" about it. You can read about most of it in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and similar publications. They are not 45 2.1's "techniques", they are everyones. There is no "secret" knowledgeable only to a few "artists".

Well apparently those of you on the forum sqwaking haven't proved the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and similar publications does tell you everything because you're not doing it.

....and this:

The truth of the situation is that the one good 1" groups was simply the product of random dispersion

You said five consecutive five shot groups. I did it...out of a dirty barrel I might add..except it really wasn't dirty because the LBT kept it pretty clean.

...and this:

The problems are several; first there is the fast twist. Normal cast bullets are adversely affected by RPM above a certain threshold. That threshold is in the 120-140,000 RPM range.

Where were my cast bullets adversely affected by RPM above your mentioned threshold in my five targets? Like I said I didn't even cull the bullets.

....and this:

So go to work and show us 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups ata chronographed "high velocity".

I did go to work and now you're making excuses like I said you would. There are other fast twist rifles out there then just the Swede. I believe I proved myself on four of them.

...and I said this:

I'll admit and I think 45 2.1 will agree that it's hard to shoot HV with a very fast twist. Let me clarify the word "hard". By that I mean you have to do lot's of work and testing to find that "pressure" sweet spot.

Did you see there what I mentioned hard to mean?

Larry the barrel on my rifle isn't custom. It's an off the shelf LW barrel. The length is 23 inchs. It's also of a very light sporter weight. The rifle is as average as you can get. The stock is a Ramline (which didn't even fit the old 110 action) and the scope is just a cheapo Tasco 3x9 World Class. So don't make it sound like I have some kind of high dollar competition rifle. The old 110 Savage is just that, the old action with the "old" trigger.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Starmetal (Joe)

Now you have gone and done it.....got me all riled up and I had to go pull one of my 6.5 Swedes out of the gun safe. It is a SR Mexican M98 action piller bedded and MicroBed'd into a Fajen stock. The barrel was a new "in the white" M38 barrel milsurp that was easy to screw on the action. Headsapce is tight as with cases that are completely FL sized in the RCBS FL diie can just be felt as the bolt is closed on them. It has a 9X scope on it and she shoots into sub moa with 120 gr Sierra's and 129 gr Hornadys. Trigger is a Timney and breaks clean at 2 lbs. I've not done any cast bullet work with it yet. I put it together before I went to iraq, did some intial tests with known loads and then put it in the gun safe and haven't had it out shooting since. My other HV load testing has been with my M38 scout with a Leupold 2X scout scope on it. It shoots well enough but the 2X scope leaves something to be desired for serious group testing. Attached is a picture of the rifle and another of the 266455 bullets (do they look familiar?) with a '06 formed neck of the cartridge. The bullets shown are only partially lubed. I do that when i shoot them down at 1400 fps (fine grouse load when hunting deer).

Darn, I have so little time between now and when winter and hunting season sets in......sometimes you really irritate me as I'll lose sleep over this now

Larry Gibson

Ooops...sorry...didn't mean to rile you up. This has been festering inside me for a long time. Know what I told 45 2.1 when it all came together for me? I said "You poophead (cleaned up for the kids in our audience) you've created a monster". He laughed. I went on to name all the calibers I was going to experiment with now.

If and when I get a 6.5 Swede I will put a scope on it. My eyes are just too bad. Shucks, look at my custom drawn bullsyes on those five targets. I can don't see those through my 3x9 scope as clear as you younger fellows do.

Larry, you inspired me. Like I said I deliberately ordered that 6.5x54MS barrel with the fast twist to prove you wrong. I was going to go all the way and get it with the original bore and rifling and didn't because both are really "fat" and it's hard enough as it is finding a 6.5 mould that casts them fat. Other then that it has the long long throat for the heavy 160 grain bullets and is a hair withing the original twist. Lothar Walther can provide you with original spec barrel per caliber. They have two pages on their barrel sight and one is for Amerian calibers and the other for European. They make barrels for everything including pellet rifles.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I didn't answer your statement about the 7x57 cases having less capacity. I thought that too when I made them up, but found it's hardly anything. I done some 30-06 cases and although they worked the necks definitely have to be trimmed....way way too thick. The 7x57's oddly weren't. They are a mix too, of RP, WIN, and FED. I need to make another batch. I told you how undersized the heads are on my Norma and I have a poopload of those too darn. They did affect accuracy, but worse the necks are grossly thin. They don't split, but the also don't have good neck tension. What a shame, nice brass.

I've played around with this rifle some with jacketed to break the barrel in and come to the conclusion that it's not hotter then the 6.5 Grendel. Yup, that little Grendel can beat it. I fought that at first a little Grendel which is 6.5x39-40 and skinnier case beating the old 6.5x54MS. I thought too that the old Mannlicher was just loaded down pressure wise for the older rifles out there, but found out that trying to push it didn't work. It actually did build up high pressure and fast.

Joe

[303Guy]

Pat I.

You are quite right in what you say and I might even agree with you - in fact I do agree with you but is't the fun factor and the challange! I think we are all having fun here watching and hoping that O.S.O.K. will succeed! WE WANT him to succeed!
We are learning stuff along the way, too! (At least I am. )

StarMetal

There is only one thing to say to your target results;




Beauty!

(Now iff'n you had used nice official targets, I could have used them as my wallpaper!)

[Larry Gibson]

[QUOTE=StarMetal;658338]Well let's recap some of the things you've said here Larry:

Did I tell you of shooting a 10 shot group at high velocity with cast bullets out of my 6.5 Swede? Well 3 of those shots were within MOA so it's an MOA load! All I've got to do is pay attention to the "masters" and figure out what made those 3 shots land within an MOA of each other! As to the other 7 shots? Obviously they landed upards of 8" from the "group" so I must have "torn the rice paper".........

My groups didn't turn out that way today and I have to fool around doing something else until the barrel cooled down some.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context.
You are "seriously" correct. Welcome to the world of "myths, secrets, old wife's tales and witchcraft" regarding cast bullets at high velocity. Go ahead and cast some of 50/50 alloy, HT or WQ them, let them age, slap some LBT Blue on 'em and fill the case up with a slow powder.....go test them and then come back ans some of us will tell you point blank why the accuracy still sucks.

Okay, I did. Tell me my accuracy sucked.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context. Nor were you using a "cruize missle" as was the originator of the thread.

and waksupi said this:

Yeah, that's it. Push the 6.5 a little faster. Yeah

I did and look at how unbent they were and the nice groups they shot....fast.

[B]No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context.
One can shoot a good group simply due to random dispersion. The key to accuracy is not just one group but the ability to consistently reproduce that accuracy without excuses such as different lots of powder, primers, GCs, ambiant temperature, nodes, lubes, etc.

I shot your prescribed amount of shots and group..from a dirty barrel too.

So you say but is there a point here? Where in this thread did I say to clean the barrel between groups except with my experiemce using soft alloy and long nosed FP bullets? Where did I tell anyone to clean between groups? In the past I told you to do so if you wanted to and even allowed for a fouler or two. You really need to quit halucinating stuff up Joe. I've already congradulated you on your success. I suppose this is part of your ranting because you can't prove I said the RPM threshold was a "limit"? Sorry Joe, wrong again.

So go ahead and shoot those bullets faster as you want to, we'll be waiting for your results.

The waiting is over. The excuses begin.

No, but then you weren't using a 6.5 Swede milsurp rifle with iron military sights were you? Try to remember the topic of the thread before you quote and bragg out of context.

Anybody getting tired of Joe not figuring it out?
[/B]..and this:

Buckshot's post is a very fine one and demonstrates the problem with RPM and cast bullets. As the velocity/RPM increase above a certain threshold the accuracy deteriorates.

I love the way my accuracy deteriorated today

Nice razz but out of context as usual. No your accuracy did not deteriorate but Buckshots did. That was what the response was to. BTW; Buckshot was using a milsurp 6.5 Swede and a regualr cast bullet with a bore riding nose and you weren't, get the point yet?

....and this:

Now if only you and Joe could post 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups fired at 100 yards and post the targets here? If you could then perhaps most of us would give some credence to your "secrets". I would settle for 3 five shot groups or 1 ten shot group at 2400 fps from your 6.5. How about it?

I did.

[B]That you did and congradulations again. Now Joe, I wish I could have been there to see the jig you danced after that 5th group and heard the shouting but you are getting on in age and you could hurt yourself
[/B]...and this:

My point exactly. There is nothing "secret" about it. You can read about most of it in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook and similar publications. They are not 45 2.1's "techniques", they are everyones. There is no "secret" knowledgeable only to a few "artists".

Well apparently those of you on the forum sqwaking haven't proved the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and similar publications does tell you everything because you're not doing it.

[B]And you haven't done it from a 6.5 milsurp Swede yet either
[/B]....and this:

The truth of the situation is that the one good 1" groups was simply the product of random dispersion

You said five consecutive five shot groups. I did it...out of a dirty barrel I might add..except it really wasn't dirty because the LBT kept it pretty clean.

Careful Joe, you'll hurt yourself!
...and this:

The problems are several; first there is the fast twist. Normal cast bullets are adversely affected by RPM above a certain threshold. That threshold is in the 120-140,000 RPM range.

Where were my cast bullets adversely affected by RPM above your mentioned threshold in my five targets? Like I said I didn't even cull the bullets.

[B]Out of context again and still inferring the RPM threshold is a "limit". It's not Joe, several of us have proved that including you. Is there a real point here?
[/B]....and this:

So go to work and show us 5 consecutive 5 shot groups or 3 consective 10 shot groups ata chronographed "high velocity".

I did go to work and now you're making excuses like I said you would. There are other fast twist rifles out there then just the Swede. I believe I proved myself on four of them.

[B]No excuses from me Joe. Your'e theone with the excuse; "There are other fast twist rifles out there then just the Swede" I and everyone but you knows there is a hell of a lot of difference between a Walther-Lothar barrel and a Swede barrel. Betwen a bullet for a .263/.264 (you didn't say which) and a .266 milsurp Swede barrel with a milsurp chamber. Not to mention the difference in stocks, triggers, lock time and how about the scope vs iron milsurp sights? You need to get real Joe. You've done a marvelous job pushing the RPM threshold with your custom barreled rifle. I would think that should be enough to gloat over. I certainly would and probably will gloat when I get to testing in my M98 Mex/Swede mentioned above.

[/B]...and I said this:

[B]I'll admit and I think 45 2.1 will agree that it's hard to shoot HV with a very fast twist. Let me clarify the word "hard". By that I mean you have to do lot's of work and testing to find that "pressure" sweet spot.

[COLOR=Blue]Did you see there what I mentioned hard to mean?

If you understand that then you should be able to grasp that the RPM threshold is not a "limit". It can be pushed through with a good bullet of correct fit and design and some "hard" work developing the load. There, I've said it again. Can't you agree with me now?

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Larry the barrel on my rifle isn't custom. It's an off the shelf LW barrel. The length is 23 inchs. It's also of a very light sporter weight. The rifle is as average as you can get. The stock is a Ramline (which didn't even fit the old 110 action) and the scope is just a cheapo Tasco 3x9 World Class. So don't make it sound like I have some kind of high dollar competition rifle. The old 110 Savage is just that, the old action with the "old" trigger.

Joe, I don't know about where you live but rifles with "after market" (is that better than custom?) Walther-Lothar (or visa versa) are as rare as hens teeth. I seriously doubt if you'll find many of them around on milsurp 6.5 Swedes. Now the Savage M110 may be an "old action to you but it does out class the M96 Mauser action in accuracy potential. And I've adjusted enough of the "old" M110 triggers (they are adjustable unlike the M96/M38 triggers) to know what can be done with them.

As to the Ramline stock, well my Fajen was made for another action also and took a little fitting. The scope on mine is also a TASCO 3x9 World class. So it looks like we're pretty much matched up except I don't need no steeking LW barrel! O gotss a real 6.5 Swede barrel guess that puts me one up on you as far as this thread goes. Well hopefully you've not had the "big H" from all that hooping and hollering I'm looking forward to matching the accuracy capability at the same velocity with my Mex/Swede 6.5. However I do not expect the groups to be as good as yours considering the difference in barrels. However I do think I can at least duplicate the consitency of accuracy. I believe I said at the close of my article that I had not quit trying and I have not.


BTW. You are, as usuall, ignoring the specific questions asked in of you in my last two posts to you here. Could I please have an answer to those questions?

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Larry Gibson

On the RPM issue, I accept that there is such a threashold but my question is on where that threashold is? It must surely be boolit diameter specific? Or boolit diameter/length specific maybe?

Taking the question further, how much does the boolit length and pressure threashold (yield stress related) influence the issue? (Keeping in mind that lead flows under stress).

Finally, muzzle pressure - if the muzzle pressure is too high the boolit could be 'bumped up' as it exits the muzzle?