This tepid lil .357

[Chikinfishin]

I have a ruger-marlin 1894 in .357. I love the gun, but it is very fickle about what it shoots accurately.

I've done the usual gambit of accuracy improving mods, fitting the handguards, loose screws, williams aperture sight on the receiver and a Partridge blade up front.

It routinely struggles to give acceptable for medium game accuracy with all but a handful of bullets. I'm looking for 5 shots giving a 4moa group at 100yds. To date the only bullets to give this level of performance is the hornady 158 xtp-fp, and NOE 180-wfn cast from coww. I've tested probably a dozen others ranging 5-12 inches. Fliers common is the biggest issue. Some groups would be acceptable without them, but easily half the tested ammo is a fail.

Am I the only one struggling to get these to 100yds? Welcome to suggestions. I know its got design limits but I'm not asking it to be a bolt gun.

I'm debating taking off the mag tube and handguard and testing accuracy without the front end off to see if things clear up a bit. I wait 2 minutes between shots these days to keep heat from being a factor.

My current best is a 2.5in group.

[357Mag]

Chickenfishin -

Howdy !

What type of bench set-up are you using, for your 100yd work ?

An adjustable accuracy front rest and rear bag ?


A led sled ?


A simple sand bag, or similar .


A bi-pod + a rear bag ? Or other ?


If you are shooting the carbine with the fore arm contacting a bag or other type of rest,
I recommend you try a different rest configuration, if at all possible.. cause..

Pressure/ force excepted upward on the for end can translate to the barrel; and have a negative impact on obtainable accuracy ( here 100yd ).


As a temporary expedient:
you might try a barrel clamping set-up similar to those clamp brackets seen on tactical shotguns. where the mag tube is clamped onto the shotguns barrel. You could re-purpose
some specialized type of hangers designed for use on piping or electrical conduits.
Take an open-eyed look through the isles of places like Menards, Lowes, Home Depot,
Local hardware store; etc. The goal is to better integrate the mag tube w/ the barrel.

Or fashion something yourself out of a polymer block, thick plastic sheet, or perhaps even wood.
You use want to test a clamping arrangement(s), and see if it helps. Then, thread the lower clamp block to accept a bi-pod mounting screw.

Attaching the 2 pieces of the barrel clamp will necessitate that you give some thought to location and routing of attachment fasteners/bolts whether open sights or scope used.

You can use a rear bag along w/ the clamp-mounted bi-pod. Or. alternately. just re-try shooting the gun w/ the barrel clamp contacting a sand bag and see if it helps anything; accuracy-wise.

I used a cast-in-place combo barrel clamp/ fwd bi-pod mount, on my M-336 XLR .35 Remington;
and it proved to be a huge accuracy booster . Made my own bi-pod, too.

* The idea is to holster the mag tubes integration w/ the barrel, to make the front end of the gun more stable / rigid.


With regards,
357Mag

[papaglenn]

I struggled for many years with Marlin 357's. I ran into the same problems. I would get great 4-5" groups at 100 yards but every 8th or 9th shot would be a flyer.

I won't bore you with a long detailed summary of all of the things that I tried. But after struggling with barrel bands, stocks, etc. I found the only rifle that would perform consistently was my 1894 Cowboy with a 24" barrel. Not the standard rifles with the 18.5" round barrels but the 24" octagon barrels.

This rifle will consistently stay a 4" rifle all day. This is with factory buckhorn sights. My load is a NOE 180 gr WFN GC over 12.5gr of 2400.

I am tempted to buy another one with a 20" octagon barrel but for now I am shooting my 1893's in 30-30 and 38-55.

But I feel your pain as I have been there myself.

[jonp]

You don't say what powders your testing

[FergusonTO35]

How many rounds total would you say you have put through it? Seems like lever actions especially benefit from many rounds fired. Try some decent factory 158 grain JSP ammo, I like PMC, Federal, and Remington UMC. Not the fancy 20 round box defensive stuff, but the 50 round box of basic soft point bullets. If it won't shoot those within 4" all day long then you have a problem and the rifle needs to go back to Ruger. Ruger will not know there is a problem if guns don't come back. My 1981 edition will keep just about any load within 6" at 100 yards and I think that is a reasonable baseline expectation. Accuracy would probably be even better with a real marksman shooting it!

[Shawlerbrook]

Get mic Macpherson’s book on accurizing leverguns.

[Chikinfishin]

These days i use a Caldwell 2 piece adjustable front rest and rear sandbag. I frequently support it by the receiver to keep stresses off the barrel. Your solution is unique 357mag.

Most factory rounds tested both lead and jacket hobble in the 4-8in range. Tried norma, hsm bear load, aguila, federal, remington. It liked the 180grn hsm load the most so I sought to replicate and improve.

I'm currently using alliant 300mp and h110 the most. My worst results were with faster burning powders. 231 and cfe pistol have been used. 231 loads were unusable even at 50yds.

I currently use:
Hornady 158grn XTP-FP, 17grns Alliant 300-MP, 1.585" OAL, heavy crimp with lee collet crimp die 1800 fps
NOE 180 WFN, COWW alloy, 16grns 300-MP, 1.585" OAL, light taper crimp 1700fps

Ive slugged the bore and its a .358", so i size .359". Barrel is always clean after shooting.

Im debating reducing my current 180 load. They group excellent withholding fliers. My money is on the fliers being boolits who shed the check in flight. I've stewed on upgrading my checks to more expensive and thicker copper flashing as well.

1000002677.jpg

If I could curb the fliers I'd be ecstatic with those. The hornadys shoot great every time.

[Larry Gibson]

With those powders using top end loads I suggest trying a lighter weight GC'd cast bullet, one in the 150 - 160 gr range for accuracy at a lower velocity. The accuracy level of the 158 XTP is probably the best "reference" for potential accuracy.

I'd also use Hornady GCs to establish a "reference" to judge the quality of your GCs by.

Are you using PC or traditional lube?

Does the NOE 180 WFN bullet have the same profile and length of the HSM bullet?

[NSB]

Please don’t be offended, but I’ll point out something I’ve found about lever guns over the last 50+ years: any, and I mean ANY change in cheek pressure applied to the stock will shift bullet impact. Sometimes radically. As far as bullets go, there’s nothing that’s going to shoot better than the Hornady 158 AND the 180 XTP’s. I could get consistent five shots at 100 yards around 3” and once in a while just a tad better using H110 or WW296. I was using a scope on the gun also. With “irons” I could get around 4” about all the time. The advice about cheek pressure applies to any and all guns with two piece stocks to some extent.

[Sgt H]

I will 2nd NSB concerning cheek pressure. The same applies to single shots like a Sharps 1874 or 1885 High wall. Shooting off a bench with front and rear bags will compound this. I use bench top cross sticks and no rear bag so I can sit more upright and not be leaning down on the stock. I hold the forearm in my hand with my only my elbows on the bench for rear support. I feel this system minimizes the cheek pressure issue. I get 2-3 moa groups with early 1894c micro groove 357 and with the new Ruger/Marlin 1894 44 mag with their preferred cast bullet loads. All of my loads are lighter 1100-1400fps loads though.

[FergusonTO35]

Yes, and cheek weld is a factor on one piece stocks as well. Good cheek weld ensures repeatable sight picture, especially when using sights. On a rifle with alot of drop in the comb, I use a temporary cheek piece of rolled up shop towels when sighting in.

One more thing. Chikinfishin, are you using sights or a scope? If using sights, you may want to temporarily mount a scope for accuracy testing. Reason I suggest this is that aiming errors will be more obviously seen with a scope, that's how it always is for me.

[Griff]

Get mic Macpherson’s book on accurizing leverguns.

This↑↑↑

Don't shoot jacketed & cast loads in the same session. Or, if you must, insert a thorough cleaning between the two.

Best accuracy is seldom found at max pressures. Drop 10-15% below max, adding ½ a grain until accuracy falls off, then back off in 2 tenths of a grain increments until accuracy reasserts itself.

[lightload]

Long ago I decided to test lever actions with a 3 shot group. If multiple 3 shot groups gave good results, I was happy. Let me confess. Never could I could I beat a 3 shot 3 inch groups if the cartridge was a pistol round. For this reason, I elected not to shoot at deer if the range exceeded 100 yards. In JM Marlin 357 rifles I sized at .360 and used 2400 powder and a gas check bullet and had consistent results. I am not an expert rifleman by any means but do know my limitations. I hunt and shoot accordingly.

[Thumbcocker]

180 grain rnfp gas check with Lil gun.

[Chikinfishin]

1000002682.jpg1000002681.jpg1000002684.jpg

Well here she is guys. All 6.5lbs of her!

I have a williams fp-336 on it, i drilled and tapped an additional hole in the receiver to space it lightly forward and create clearance enough to work the hammer without issue. Running a stock .093 aperture for now, tighter and loose are available to me. All hardware is secured with blue loctite.

Front is a skinner sights Partridge blade. You cant see it but I installed a lead tipped grub screw to lock it down on the right side. That whole FSB is very solid.

Larry gibson:
I'm using powder coat and bens red. Results similar. The powder coat builds up on the 180grn wfn im using however and chambers hard. The boolit is designed with a tapered band to prevent this issue with regular lube. So I switched.

Both the NOE and HSN use a 80% meplat and I hardness tested the hsn at 14bnh. My mix is a splash softer around 12bnh. My mold is plain base so commercial checks are not an option. Im thinking of upgrading from beer can to commercial copper sheets thick as my tool can handle.

NSB:
I'm not offended, I've only just started shooting peeps regularly this past year. Mostly M1 rifle, ar15a4 with carry handle. This lil thing certainly doesn't have the cheek weld you and others are suggesting. More like "chin weld" by the time the sights were on. The old M1 is far more comfortable. If only it wasn't 11lbs. A leather cheek pad may be in order after a function test of cotton towel and tape.

Griff:
Does a boresnake qualify? I might have had copper in the bore when I shot my cast. Ran 20 jackets and one pull of the snake before shooting. It had a through cleaning before range session.

[1006]

I have a ruger-marlin 1894 in .357. I love the gun, but it is very fickle ……. It routinely struggles to give acceptable for medium game accuracy with all but a handful of bullets. I'm looking for 5 shots giving a 4moa group at 100yds. To date the only bullets to give this level of performance is the hornady 158 xtp-fp, and NOE 180-wfn cast from coww. I've tested probably a dozen others ranging 5-12 inches.

Your accuracy sounds satisfactory to me. I have a SBL Marlin (16 inch stainless) and have not tried to shoot groups beyond 50yards. I usually get 1.5 - 2.0 inch groups at 50. I have tried it with a scope, with irons, and lately with a red dot; it is always about the same group at 50 yards.

I have had good luck with 180 grain cast bullets from Missouri Bullets and 6.6HS-6, and Remington 125grain 1/2JHP with 21.6W296 for a blistering 2251fps.

I have several lever guns in traditionally rifle calibers, and I believe the 357 has the WORST trigger. The trigger is definitely the biggest deterrent to better accuracy for me.

[longarm60]

I gave dad's marlin in 35rem to nephew - after I tore the forearm and magtube off and fixed it all..

That stupid rifle wasn't even 6" grouping at 100yd, but I discovered the forearm rattled in carry or shooting - and the magtube rattled as well, all in different frequencies and places..

I ended up cleaning th metal parts and then treating it all with release, and then slathered tons of epoxy into the forearm and under magtube and reassembled it all. A day later, I tore it down to remove releases and oil, reassembled - and the 35rem was shooting better than a 1" group, and that was it. Done.. Gave to the grandpa-worshiping nephew.

I suspect it's either unloved or rusting solid.

[Jhon]

Interesting thread. Especially the info re cheek welds..I shoot a bunch of LAs, mostly Rossi Puma in several Cals but also Winchester 92, Uberti Highwall and soon a Winchester Model 94. Cheek weld and using a rear bag are issues that never occurred to me but make a lot of sense thks.

The one thing I have concentrated on is the effect of velocity on accuracy. Also mentioned above but worth stressing. Here is a graph plotting group size against velocity for a 180gn bullet in 357mag. From the site from which this comes (link below), the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of moderate velocity giving best accuracy.

Screenshot_20260802_080132_Dropbox.jpg


http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[Hickok]

With handgun cartridges, .357, .44, .45 in lever actions I realistically strive for 1.5-2.0" groups at 50 yards, and 3-4" groups at 100 yds, scoped and bench rested. The rifle cartridge lever actions can cut these groups in half.

I believe the 30/30 and rifle bullets are longer, more stable, and more aerodynamic lending to their better accuracy.

The lever action rifles weren't made for hunting humming birds!

[FergusonTO35]

1000002682.jpg1000002681.jpg1000002684.jpg

Well here she is guys. All 6.5lbs of her!

I have a williams fp-336 on it, i drilled and tapped an additional hole in the receiver to space it lightly forward and create clearance enough to work the hammer without issue. Running a stock .093 aperture for now, tighter and loose are available to me. All hardware is secured with blue loctite.

Front is a skinner sights Partridge blade. You cant see it but I installed a lead tipped grub screw to lock it down on the right side. That whole FSB is very solid.

Larry gibson:
I'm using powder coat and bens red. Results similar. The powder coat builds up on the 180grn wfn im using however and chambers hard. The boolit is designed with a tapered band to prevent this issue with regular lube. So I switched.

Both the NOE and HSN use a 80% meplat and I hardness tested the hsn at 14bnh. My mix is a splash softer around 12bnh. My mold is plain base so commercial checks are not an option. Im thinking of upgrading from beer can to commercial copper sheets thick as my tool can handle.

NSB:
I'm not offended, I've only just started shooting peeps regularly this past year. Mostly M1 rifle, ar15a4 with carry handle. This lil thing certainly doesn't have the cheek weld you and others are suggesting. More like "chin weld" by the time the sights were on. The old M1 is far more comfortable. If only it wasn't 11lbs. A leather cheek pad may be in order after a function test of cotton towel and tape.

Griff:
Does a boresnake qualify? I might have had copper in the bore when I shot my cast. Ran 20 jackets and one pull of the snake before shooting. It had a through cleaning before range session.

Aahh, I see. I've been shooting peeps for over 20 years. They can be very accurate, but are quite unforgiving of poor cheek weld or other errors. My personal max distance with any type of sights for hunting is 75 yards, and I accept that. Once again, I would respectfully advise temporarily mounting a scope to remove another variable.
O