9mm Largo

[Battis]

I found this vintage box of 9mm Largo, dated 1962. Probably not very collectable. I have some guns that take this ammo.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Suspect corrosive primers. I have a case of this ammo, boxed as shown. Mine has proven to be surefire, but I clean well. The Largo is a great cartridge, much like but a little less powerful than the .38 Super. As originally loaded it was a tad more powerful than the 9mm Parabellum, but modern propellants and bullets have made them about even. Personally, I would hesitate to load my 9mm Largos to 9mm Parabellum +P levels in consideration for the older pistols for which the Largo is chambered. Probably not more than borderline dangerous, but why put excessive wear on the guns? I purchase new Starline brass and load with 124 gr. bullets. I once bought a box of 500 CLSWC bullets from a fellow here on the Forum named Casting Machine, but I don't see him come up on the board anymore. Very good bullets. I've very successfully used Unique, Bullseye, Universal, and 231 for powders. I have several Astra Model 400 pistols, two Star Model As, and several Llama pistols in the Largo caliber.

DG

[Noah Zark]

Made in Seville, Spain. Beautiful city.

Otherwise, what Gebirgsjaeger said. I use W231 and 115 gr 9x19 boolits.

Noah

[Battis]

Actually, the above box will probably sit with my other vintage ammo, unfired. I've loaded my own for quite awhile. When I bought my Astra 400, it came with a bunch of ammo - maybe 120 rounds or so - and every one was a dud. I pulled and saved the bullets. Along with the Astra, I have a Star Super and a Destroyer carbine.
The Astra 400 also takes a .38 ACP round (never .38 Super). I always wondered how that came about (Astra taking a .38 ACP).

9mm Largo: 3.2 grs BullsEye
128 gr jacketed bullet (pulled) or a 122 gr cast bullet.
4.6 Unique worked well.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Easily answered. The .38 ACP (1900) was popular in the '20s and '30s but was largely replaced by the advent of the .38 Super (1929). The two cartridges have identical case measurements; they just souped up the powder charge. Much like the .357 Mag., the .38 Super was touted for Law Enforcement use as being capable of penetrating the heavy metal bodies of automobiles of that period. The Super became the preferred loading, and the ordinary .38 ACP began to decline in use and production. Today it is difficult to find regular .38 ACP ammo.

However, as relates to Spanish pistols of the 20s-50s, because the dimensions of the Largo and .38 ACP are so similar they capitalized on that fact and stamped their pistols as being appropriate for both cartridges. When one sees a vintage Spanish pistol stamped "9mm/.38" it refers to the .38 ACP and not the .38 Super which is higher pressure and which did not yet exist when some of these pistols were manufactured.

However, moving into the '60s some newly manufactured Spanish pistols were upgraded to handle .38 Super and many so marked. If one is marked for .38 Super it is certainly safe and appropriate to use that cartridge, although if a person could find .38 ACP it goes without saying that it would also be safe to use in the more modern pistol as would the Largo round if it fits. The .38 Super should not be used in the Astra 400, and many cracked frames have resulted from its use. If you buy a 400, be sure to check for this condition and disassemble the pistol for inspection as it can be difficult or impossible to see the crack (s) without field stripping. Impossible to do on Gunbroker or other internet auctions, so be sure to ask about it and the seller's return policy before buying. The 400's production was ended in 1950, and the design was never significantly changed from the original 1921 model. It was widely used in the Spanish Civil War and the ability to also use .38 ACP was a big plus when the Largo round was in short supply. Nevertheless, it is a great pistol, highly accurate and well balanced with the only drawbacks being the amount of effort needed to retract the slide because of its heavy recoil spring and small sights.

I collect Spanish pistols, the majority of which are Llamas. Their flagship pistol for many years was the IX-A model which is a close copy of the Colt 1911. One may find them stamped "9mm/.38" but also ".38 Super Automatic". I have them both ways, plus some stamped "9mm/.38" on the left side and ".38 Super Automatic" on the right side, which would seem to perhaps be evolutionary in their thinking or sales technique. Here things get a bit murky. If it isn't specifically marked for .38 Super I won't shoot Super ammo in it, but I have a friend who is probably THE Llama authority in the U.S. who will shoot the Super cartridge in any IX-A pistol that is marked "9mm/.38". As far as I know there have been no comprehensive books written on the Llama series of pistols, but if there was he would be the fellow to do it, but since he's a year older than I am and says that it would take a couple of trips to Spain to research things it will likely never be done. As already stated, I will not do it, but the 1911 is such a strong and adaptable design that perhaps with the appropriate weight recoil spring and maybe a shok-buff there isn't a problem and I'm just overly cautious.

So, .38 Super in an Astra 400 is "no", and in Llama "maybe". That leaves Star. The Star Models A and Super A are also close to the Browning design and might be tweaked for use of the Super round. The main problem here is that they don't use 1911 size springs and custom springs to permit heavier recoil are hard to find. Some Star owners, especially the Super A shooters, claim to routinely use the Super round in their pistols without ill effects. However, I have seen cracked Star frames, so again my caution would be to use the Largo cartridge in Stars that are marked 9mm/.38" as the .38 Super wasn't what the manufacturer had in mind. The Largo can be handloaded with any bullet suitable for the 9mm Parabellum (Luger), and the Parabellum is presently the darling of Law Enforcement, Military, and the combat sports shooters, so my point being why stress these older pistols by using the Super round?

IM007762.jpg
Llama 9mm/.38 mfg. 1944. .38 Super would not be a good choice.

From past threads I know that you know most of this, so it's for the benefit of those who don't. There are useful Largo loads listed in the Speer Reloading Manual #13 and a good write up on page 507.

DG

[Battis]

Good info. I baby my old guns. I load for my Colt 1903 Hammer - one of my favorite handguns.
As I remember, I used hairspray or some such spray to check for cracks in the Astra before I shot it (advice from this forum - was that you?). I found an aftermarket 9mm Luger barrel for the Star Super - I think it (the spare barrel) was made in Korea.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

No, I never heard of the hairspray trick before. I wonder how and why that would work?
I've also got a Korean barrel replaced Star Mod. A (linked barrel) that if memory serves, I bought from a now-long-out-of-business outfit that I think called themselves Federal Arms Corp. I bought several barrels from them including a couple of new replacement Astra 400 barrels. All proved satisfactory. The Star A is stamped 9mm/.38. so someday when it passes from my cold dead fingers to the next owner, they'll be surprised when they try to load it with Largo ammo.

I guess your Colt 1903 is a .38 ACP? Nice old pistols, that's for certain, and reflective of Colt's high manufacturing standards of the time. Spanish pistol collecting led me to acquiring some representative examples of the WW I "Ruby" pistols which were pretty much a direct copy of the Colt 1903. I did not get into these as deeply as I did the later pistols. They represent a very large area of collecting as there were almost 30 known pistol makers attempting to fill the French Army's contracts, and they ranged from very good to poor in quality and reliability. They used to be affordable, but like everything have become expensive.

DG

[Battis]

There's 2 Stars for sale at a shop not far from me. I haven't checked them out yet, but I probably will.


Star B5 9mm 1128xxx $499.95 1 MAG, 5 INCH BBL
Star BKM 9mm 1368xxx $399.95 FBOX, 1 MAG

[Rockindaddy]

Nice thread on the 9mm Largo. My stash of 9mm Largo is pretty old. Have a STAR pistol that shoots the round. I get a dud in about every magazine full. On occasion the whole magazine will shoot. When I had a Spanish Destroyer bolt action carbine the gun would shoot every time. I figure the old mercuric primers are slowly deteriorating. But a heavy primer blow will set the rounds off. My Z-45 will run a burst of 10-12 rounds and quit. Recocking the bolt the remainder of the 30 rounds in the magazine will fire. Very frustrating! Have an Astra Model F with the original shoulder stock. Same thing! Sometime the whole 20 magazine will empty. The gun has a retarder mechanish that limits it to 300 rounds per minute fire rate. However if I load up the ammo I make up for my 1902 Colt (38 Colt Automatic) using 38 Super brass and a cast and lubricated 147 gr lead alloy round nose bullet; the 9mm Largo guns like it! I remember paying $.05 per round for the 9mm Largo ammo. The jacketed boolit and powder is still salvageable.Attachment 345188

[Battis]

When I bought my Destroyer carbine, it didn't have a rear sight, just the ring that once held a sight (or so I thought). I removed the barrel, and there was the sight on the bottom- someone had rolled it over to get it out of the way.

[GONRA]

GONRA sez - pay attenion to Der Gebirgsjager.............

>>>>> Lottsa Spanish 9mm Largo ammo was imported into U.S.A. <<<<<
.
SOME may be "non corrosive
BE CAREFUL! ! CHECKITOUT

[abunaitoo]

Used to be Blazers made some 9mm Largo ammo.

[dtknowles]

Used to be Blazers made some 9mm Largo ammo.

Like this?
f5a56d8f-e8b4-4cd6-838a-e16cb9c2af11~1.jpg
Tim

[rintinglen]

Aggghhhh! That blazer stuff was awful. My Star Modelo Super hated it. I thought it was the gun until I loaded some 124 grain FMJ'S into Starline brass and all of a sudden I could shoot mag after mag without a stutter. I like the Star Modelo Super very much. If you can get one and you reload for it, you'll have some good shooting fun.