Revolver wound ballistics for .38 snubnose and clothing

[725]

I agree with the concepts here about shot placement. No arguing with a good hit. That said, I tell my wife to shoot the floor/air/wall - whatever - once if she thinks there is an intruder in the house and then call out, "The next one's for you." Should reduce the over all number of threat possibilities to deal with. If they keep on keeping on, well, that's another story.

[jdgabbard]

I agree with the concepts here about shot placement. No arguing with a good hit. That said, I tell my wife to shoot the floor/air/wall - whatever - once if she thinks there is an intruder in the house and then call out, "The next one's for you." Should reduce the over all number of threat possibilities to deal with. If they keep on keeping on, well, that's another story.

In the house I’m not so much concerned with how many rounds my 38spl holds. I’m usually carrying a full sized 9mm when home. And there is the AR next to the bed, loaded with M855. I don’t have to worry about friendlies, I live alone. And I know how to repair sheet rock… I’m shooting through walls, doors, or anything else I need to shoot through to drop whatever wandered into my castle. I chose the M855 for the extra penetration I’m not going to get from 55gr. My house, my rules…

[atfsux]

I will state that anyone that believes a reversed HBWC to be “king” for snubbies needs an information update, immediately.

Pleased to help, with receipts, in that regard.

Anyone who has done their own testing knows this truth. The receipts are the experience.

However, just as an illustration, do you recall the old Nyclad line of ammo> First brought out by S&W in the 70s, then sold to Federal, who discontinued it in the late 90s. That was the best ever factory HP ammo for standard pressure .38 and 9mm ever. 125grn 9mm HP Nyclads were my carry ammo for decades, and the HP 158s in revolvers when I packed one of those. Back before PC became a thing, these were dead soft lead projectiles sheathed in nylon. The 9mm opened up bigger than any JHP in that time and did so without +P pressures. The same for the .38 loadings. The reason was that copper jacketing tech back then wasn't what it is now, and JHPs often didn't reliably open up unless driven to +P velocities.

Thus, the same is true of reversed wadcutters. Or just about any pure lead HP going faster than 800 fps. Straight Shooter Casting out of West Virginia used to sell a gas-checked Hi-Tek coated 158 grn LSWCHP that worked beautifully. Underwood loaded that projectile for their .38 FBI load ammo. Alas, the folks at Straight Shooter retired last year and sold off their inventory and machinery.

Soft lead is the key. It works just fine.expanded HBWC.jpgNyclad 125grn 38spl.jpg

[35remington]

Atf, I mean to correct the record based on how poorly reversed HBWC’s actually shoot, from having actually done so myself, and how poorly they penetrate. These I speak of are swaged, but cast are iffy too.

I am not sure how a reversed HBWC has anything to do with the bullets you mention above. Neither are a reversed HBWC, which is pretty much a failure. Much better to use it flat point forward as you get the accuracy and penetration that reversing the bullet gives away. Bad, bad tradeoff.

[atfsux]

Atf, I mean to correct the record based on how poorly reversed HBWC’s actually shoot, from having actually done so myself, and how poorly they penetrate. These I speak of are swaged, but cast are iffy too.

I am not sure how a reversed HBWC has anything to do with the bullets you mention above. Neither are a reversed HBWC, which is pretty much a failure. Much better to use it flat point forward as you get the accuracy and penetration that reversing the bullet gives away. Bad, bad tradeoff.

I do not seek to claim your data is false or anything like that. But it is entirely inconsistent with all soft lead casting and loading of hollow-points I have ever done. I learned from pops who was casting and loading pure lead reversed HBWCs for duty use when he was on PhxPD back in the 70s. They had tested these in water barrels at the academy (back before gelatin took over) and they were always reliable openers, just as the soft lead Nyclads were. Never seen any seriously degraded accuracy. Sure, not as good as match grade with the wadcutters facing forwards, but they didn't suck. I've tested mine in water, gel, even pizza dough back in the day when I managed a Little Caesar's and we had a big batch to throw out. (You'd be amazed how similar wet gassy dough is to human flesh as a ballistic simulant media.) The only real challenge has been to not push the projectiles so fast that they over-open and shear off the petals of the mushroom, although that usually only occurred in 4in bbl guns and not snubbies.

[35remington]

Clothing of any reasonable thickness especially gives reversed HBWC’s fits. The overturning/tumbling impulse, if it isn’t already tumbling before it even hits the clothing (swaged especially), develops way too early. A cast HBWC, if soft enough to expand widely, penetrates poorly. Standards are not met.

The energy level of reasonably recoiling 38 wadcutters (less than 850 fps which is already Plus P) in aluminum snubbies, which I prefer, is way too low for a marginally stable bullet or a widely expanded bullet to penetrate well. If a guy with meaty arms like me got hit with a cross body shot that broke the bone (or not) I doubt it would get into the body cavity effectively.

More is needed than that.

[35remington]

I think the disconnect is you are interested in how widely the bullet expands, while I figure it better penetrate something effectively first. I want the bullet to shoot through something, not look like a steak topping.

[FergusonTO35]

I think the disconnect is you are interested in how widely the bullet expands, while I figure it better penetrate something effectively first. I want the bullet to shoot through something, not look like a steak topping.

My thoughts exactly, especially given the modest velocities of my handgun ammo. I've never shot a person (thank goodness) but I have shot bunches of game animals and I can confidently say two holes kill faster than one.

[35remington]

The actual top end of reversed HBWC’s of the Plus P variety in short barrels is close to 810 fps or so.

Anything but point forward penetration is just too poor for the various reasons given.

[pettypace]

The actual top end of reversed HBWC’s of the Plus P variety in short barrels is close to 810 fps or so.

Anything but point forward penetration is just too poor for the various reasons given.

Exactly!

The expanded (reversed) HBWC bullet shown in post #43 above is about the same diameter as the Roosevelt dime next to it. That's over 0.7" -- too much expansion for adequate penetration.

The mathematical models for bullet penetration (MacPherson: Bullet Penetration or Schwartz: Quantitative Ammunition Selection) predict that bullet (.7" expanded diameter, 150 grains, 800 f/s) will penetrate only about 8 inches in bare 10% gelatin. That might have seemed like a good idea 40 years ago, but wouldn't pass muster today with any knowledgeable law enforcement agency.

And if you don't have any faith in the math models, Fackler did highly controlled testing in 10% ordnance gelatin. Here's what he wrote about the .38 Special 110 grain Silvertip HP:

"The 38 Special 110 grain +P hollow-point bullet produces a wound profile that is almost exactly the same as produced by the 9mm Parabellum 115 grain Silvertip HP bullet. Both bullets were inspired by the RIl and penetrate insufficiently to reliably reach the vital organs of the human. The irrationality of trading penetration depth for a minimal increase in temporary cavity diameter was demonstrated, disastrously, in the FBI's “Miami Shootout” in 1986. The 9 mm Silvertip bullet's insufficient penetration caused the FBI to lose two agents and have five seriously wounded. The revelation of this bullet failure, at an FBl-sponsored wound ballistics workshop in 1987, was instrumental in the downfall of the RII and a return to sanity by the law enforcement community in their choice of bullets." Wound Ballistics Review, Volume 5, Number 1, page 29.

This is relevant because the expanded 110 grain Silvertip has about the same sectional density as the expanded reversed HBWC in question so it too will only penetrate about the same 8" in bare gelatin.