At really close range if you shoot him first well enough to disable/kill him all is good. But I do want more than 5-6 shots.Originally Posted by jdgabbard
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Willy Snyder
PO Box 2732
Pocatello, ID 83206
At really close range if you shoot him first well enough to disable/kill him all is good. But I do want more than 5-6 shots.
I'm not opposed to having more. And generally I'd prefer to have more, than to have less. Have and not need...if you will... But, I don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage with just 5 rounds. I can empty a revolver in 1-2 seconds and shoot more accurately than 95% of the people I see shooting at the range. Taking my time in a hurry I have no problem stacking shots on top of each other. I hazard a guess that unless I am either outnumbered, or they get the drop on me, I am going to be on equal ground. And if either of those situations arise, having a few extra rounds isn't going to matter much...
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I am not that good, especially with OEM trigger pulls on a DA revolver and with OEM grips. If he has a rifle the places where pistol bullets can disable him include the hands, arms, and CNS hits. The head area being hit is what you want regardless of what bullet you are firing. If the head shot does not include the brain you might have to shoot him again.
I LOVE these discussions about how "this" handgun cartridge or load is so much better than "that" load or cartridge.
In a 35+ year career as a paramedic, I've seen/treated folks shot with handguns from 22 short through 44 mag. By and large, they ALL suck as "manstoppers". Yeah, they can all kill you with proper bullet placement, but the "hollyweird" one shot, fall down dead doesn't happens without interrupting the CNS (spine or brain hit)
Where you're hit has a MUCH larger effect on the outcome than what you're hit with.
Carry whatever gives you the warm fuzzies though
You may now continue arguing that a 0.355" bullet at 1200 fps is more/less deadly than a 0.357" bullet at 1200fps etc
I bet you're a lot better than you lead on... In my experience 95% of guys who go to the range cannot shoot. Period. 5% can shoot very well. And of that 5% maybe around 5-10% are truly something special. I'm not saying I'm in that 5-10%, but I am definitely better than 95% of the guys I've seen at the range. At least with a pistol... Guys on this forum, in my experience, have a lot more in common than just casting....
MY problem is my eyesight is starting to get progressively blurrier. I can't distinguish a 300m target (rifle) like I used to back 20 years ago. About 200m is the my limit for iron sights on a silhouette these days. Which, if we're being honest is still better most of the guys out there. But it's frustrating, especially when I spent so many years carrying a rifle every waking moment of the day... I think all the micro-abrasions from sand out in the deserts are finally starting to show the damage they did...
As for trigger pulls, I definitely find it easier to shoot larger revolvers than smaller ones. The larger guns just seem to have really good triggers for me. The smaller you go, they seem to have overly heavy main springs. As an example, I've got a Taurus 85 that I cannot shoot accurately in double action past 12-15yds to save my life.... I tried swapping the springs for a Wolff kit, and could not get consistent primer strikes. On that same note, I have a Ruger SP101 with a DAO trigger that shoots just as well as any S&W K-Frame I've shot, whether a snub or a full size revolver. Then, there is the GP100 I bought last year. The trigger is nice, but leaves a lot to be desired (still gritty in a few areas). But, the extra weight of the 6.5" barrel and larger frame really keep the pistol on target. Making the problems with the trigger less noticable.
With that said, I have spent a LOT of time on revolver over the past 25 years. I used to take anywhere between 3-500 rounds to the range, and would leave with an empty ammo can. These days its closer to 200-250. But that is on top of whatever else I am shooting that day. I've been shooting actively for 35 years, as a civilian, wearing a badge, and my time in the service. That's not much for volume wise for someone in competitive shooting sports. But I'd guess that it's at least 2-3 times the volume of the average shooter.
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There is always someone who is an expert selling their particular ideas/opinions not necessarily tested under the stress of actual combat. The CHP shootout you referred to is known in law enforcement circles as the "Newhall Incident". The Officer I referenced was named James Pence, and he was the best shot in my cadet class, having received a plaque attesting to that fact upon graduation. As noted, this was pre-speed loaders, and he died on his knees behind the patrol car door attempting to reload his Colt Python one round at a time. The killer ran around the rear of the vehicle and shot him in the back of the head with a .45. There were four young officers killed within about 10 minutes time. This had a great deal to do with the adoption of speed loaders and a revision of tactics. There are at least three books chronicling the event if you care to find and read them. It's hard for me to believe, but it took place about 55 years ago.
So, winning gunfights has a lot to do with mindset (Jeff Cooper), practice, ability, technique, controlled speed, and efficiency of motion. One of the things my friends lacked that the two killers possessed was the mindset to viscously kill. Whereas the Officers' tactics were more defensive, the killers' tactics were aggressive. The incident occurred in the parking lot of an all-night coffee shop, and the fight was observed by a very brave ex-military customer watching out the big plate glass windows who left the restaurant, procured one of the fallen officer's shotgun, crawled along the edge of the blacktop and fired one round at the bad guys, at which point he was out of ammunition and wisely retreated. I seem to remember that at least one of the bad guys had prior military experience, the point being that military men are taught to attack when under fire, unlike most civilian Officers who tend to hunker down. Winning or losing can sometimes depend on the smallest of things or unexpected turn of events, but controlling the circumstances as best you are able gives you the best chance to survive. Had my friend run around the vehicles and shot the bad guy in the head instead of barricading he'd likely be alive today. Mindset and training.
Let's revisit the brass over the shoulder thing one more time and consider the unpleasant things you'd say to me later if were we in a gunfight together as partners. I am perhaps behind a barricade shooting at the bad guys and you're coming up behind me to assist. I throw a handful of hot brass over my shoulder into your face, or onto the asphalt or concrete where your foot rolls on one or two of the empties causing you to lose your balance or perhaps turn your ankle. Man....that could have been avoided! How much more efficient to just dump the brass in front of you in the manner I previously described (earlier post). What are you doing dumping it into your hand anyway? There's an awful lot of BS on you tube and in print. If the BS is wrong and you buy into it, then it's kind of like the parachute that didn't open-- no doing it over.
DG
DG,
As you clearly described above, all fights are very unpredictable.
I’ve never been in a gunfight but have personally been involved in or witnessed more than a few street fights with knives, sticks and/or fists. I was stabbed twice in middle school (we lived in a bad neighborhood) and fortunately, both were relatively minor injuries. All fights have a cycle - a buildup, the action, then the wind-down. Sometimes, the confrontation happens very quickly, in seconds - and sometimes over minutes or even hours.
I would say mindset and situational awareness outweigh the weapon(s) used, unless it’s a preplanned attack, like a targeted hit. If you’re the intended victim, then it’s pretty much in God’s hands whether you make it out alive.
''So, winning gunfights has a lot to do with mindset (Jeff Cooper), practice, ability, technique, controlled speed, and efficiency of motion. One of the things my friends lacked that the two killers possessed was the mindset to viscously kill. Whereas the Officers' tactics were more defensive, the killers' tactics were aggressive.''
I follow Gabe Suarez's teachings and he trained directly with Cooper; he makes the points of mind set and being a killer. He killed almost a dozen people in gunfights and beat the you know what out of countless others. I do not disagree at all with you and concur that since I will not fully act that way puts me at a disadvantage. Legally, especially as a civilian, i can not follow that mindset. Delivery of a coup de gras, shooting a fleeing foe in the back, or drawing and firing first, especially from ambush just because I sense that something is wrong can hard to justify later.
Operating a gun behind barricade especially kneeling is not the same as standing running through a mock ipsc gun game. Anyway I do not use revolvers for self defense, but I know how to use one. Many do depend upon the snubbies for concealed carry. I can carry a G26 just as well, but for safety it must be in a holster.
Hitting a fellow officer with brass could be a thing, especially with an autoloader. I hate shooting next to someone when shooting bullseye that is lubing his .22's, especially if he is taller than I. Yes people including one's self can trip on expended brass. Trip hazards are always hazardous, especially when under stress. The heavier you are, the harder you will fall.
I'd fall hard!
Situation and circumstances have a great deal to do with the approach one can take. Obviously, a police officer will suffer unpleasant legal consequences should he shoot a fleeing felon in the back. That's how it is today, but it wasn't always so. A soldier shooting a fleeing enemy is usually acceptable. A police officer beating someone up is unacceptable, and that's often the case in the military depending on the situation. You have to react within the constraints of your occupation and situation. The thing is that if and when we're faced with that life threatening situation we have to do what we have to do to survive, and attempt to justify our decision later, which in today's world will almost be a certainty. Thank goodness for shooter's insurance! If there is a point to these observations it would be that one philosophy won't cover all situations.
Like you, I rarely carry a revolver anymore. Also, like you, I do not completely rule out their usefulness. A snubby .38 is still very concealable and of sufficient power and reliability. I favor the 1911 for most circumstances, but very honestly at my age I'm finding the bulk and weight annoying. I never thought I'd see the day......Two good things though, half the year it's winter and I can carry under a heavy coat, and the other is that I seldom go anywhere anyway! .380s are convenient.
DG
.380 is not so different from .36 navy round ball full charged load. It was a gun the Bill Hickok preferred, but the difference being shot placement.
Situation and circumstances have a great deal to do with the approach one can take. Obviously, a police officer will suffer unpleasant legal consequences should he shoot a fleeing felon in the back. That's how it is today, but it wasn't always so. A soldier shooting a fleeing enemy is usually acceptable. A police officer beating someone up is unacceptable, and that's often the case in the military depending on the situation. You have to react within the constraints of your occupation and situation. The thing is that if and when we're faced with that life threatening situation we have to do what we have to do to survive, and attempt to justify our decision later, which in today's world will almost be a certainty. Thank goodness for shooter's insurance! If there is a point to these observations it would be that one philosophy won't cover all situations.
Like you, I rarely carry a revolver anymore. Also, like you, I do not completely rule out their usefulness. A snubby .38 is still very concealable and of sufficient power and reliability. I favor the 1911 for most circumstances, but very honestly at my age I'm finding the bulk and weight annoying. I never thought I'd see the day......
DG
I was mentioning Suarez, he mentioned IIRC a detective that had killed 20 people in the LA county area that was not an especially skilled shot. But apparently he had the mindset and a human is big target. Also today's ERs are probably a lot better.
What you just pointed out is probably one of the most important things that everyone seems to forget about a gunfight. You have to be ruthless, and willing to kill. Training will only take you so far. Having the determination to make sure the other guy is the one laying in his own pool makes a HUGE difference.
I know an Officer over in OKC. We were in Afghanistan together. He was a medic, armed only with a sidearm for self defense. While treating an injured ANA soldier three insurgents flanked him. He saw them just in time to pull his sidearm and empty his magazine into the three of them before reloading, and continuing to treat the ANA soldier. He received an ARCOM with V Device, while the Armchair Captain back at the FOB received a Bronze Star for his administrative duties...
But my point is, he was outnumbered, outgunned, and vulnerable while treating a wounded soldier. But that determination to do whatever needed to be done was the deciding factor.
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Tumbling wadcutters make a good argument for wadcutters in .357 Mag brass. I read somewhere than transonic velocity encourages tumbling.
That is another topic and trick for .38's. I was unware of doing it trans-sonically in a .357.
I do know that hollow base wad cutters fired backwards through the cheap .38 snub nose that I had when much younger would often hit the target sideways. one has to watch the powder charge and seating depth when loading a hollow base wad cutter backwards. Typically revolvers have a slow twist rate. I am guessing it is something like one 1 turn in 18 inches or so. Many european 9 mms are about 1 in 10 or so.
The point is that a long slow bullet, especially with the wt in rear like a hollow base wadcutter is not stable and with a slower rifling twist that just increasea lack of stability. I have never seen such striking flesh, but could be an effective wound making bullet.according to google: 1:9.84-inch twist, though this can vary by generation and specific barrel. For example, Gen 1-4 barrels often have a 1:9.84" twist rate optimized for 147-grain ammunition, while some aftermarket barrels for models like the Glock 17 can have twist rates of 1:10" or 1:14"
IIRC, we had an almost identical discussion on this subject a few months ago - with similar conclusions. We should now introduce the 200 gr. slugs…
That then includes the 38 S&W low velocity loading called the 38/200 that was meant to tumble; and some issue with the geneva convention, the 200 lead bullets was changed to a jacketed more pointed bullet of about the same length but about 20 or so grains lighter. There was long ago a high speed load for 38/44 revolvers in the 38 spl case that was also 200 grains that was only meant for some N-frame guns. I have not checked recently to see if the ammo companies still do load a 200 grain standard pressure load or the 38/44 high speed load.
The reversed 148 grn HBWC remains king for snubbies. For the first cylinder, anyway. After that, plain little round-nosed lightweights are best, like the 95 grn. .380 projectiles. The rounded profile ensures the speed-loader will quickly seat those rounds into their chambers and the gun back into action,...and the light wieght because as non-expanders, they will be least likely to penetrate through and through and hit that bus full of nuns in the background.
When democracy becomes tyranny, those of us with rifles still get to vote.
Hello.
I think it's mostly about what they would be shooting at...
When I started training for IPSC competitions, I was a good 25m shooter, on stationary paper targets, without time limit. When I tried moving targets, and by moving I only mean they rotated 90 degrees, and with a timer, I missed almost every shot, even at a much closer distance. The problem is that shooting at a moving target, even one that doesn't shoot back, has little to do with shooting at the range. Add stress and bullets flying at you and all bets are off...
Gil.
Even on paper. My experience has been that a lot of people simple are not marksman. Competition Shooters are a completely different animal. The scenarios they shoot are some of the most difficult, and often unrealistic, you’re going to find. This is a learned skill, though natural aptitude does help.
As for ‘pop ups’ and moving targets. I was first introduced to those in the Army. Pop-ups were used on the qualifying range. And getting used to only having a split second to visualize the target, take aim, pull the trigger, and hope the flight time was short enough for the bullet to hit the target before it dropped down again. Add to that the margin of error in accuracy of that rifle (typically 4-5moa), stress while shooting, and only one round per target, and you learn a lot about rifle marksmanship.
But then I was introduced to the ARM course. Where we got to use the new ‘CCO’ (M68) to engage moving targets out to 450m. This added a simulated 5-10m dash on top of the pop-ups at varying distances. Now, depending on distance, you might have to think about where the target is GOING TO BE rather than where it is when you pull the trigger. That range really taught me a lot.
Competitive shooting incorporates a lot of these principals into a fun exercise. But the problem I have is that it also teaches some bad practices for real world scenarios. That’s a different discussion. But I’m a firm believer that if you want to shoot REALLY well you gotta shoot moving targets and pop-ups with a limited supply of ammo.
Back to the 38spl… I 100% agree shot placement is king.
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GOA and FPC have done more in the last decade than your NRA has done in it's entire existence... Support the ones that actually do something for you.
I will state that anyone that believes a reversed HBWC to be “king” for snubbies needs an information update, immediately.
Pleased to help, with receipts, in that regard.
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