Revolver wound ballistics for .38 snubnose and clothing

[barnetmill]

A very good is discussion about wound ballistics in general. Dick Fairburn has actually worked with Martin Fackler. Martin L. Fackler (1933–2015) was an American military officer, surgeon and wound ballistics expert. He served in the U.S Navy from 1960 to 1975 and in the U.S. Army from 1975 to 1991. He was a field surgeon at the Naval Support Hospitals at Da Nang, Vietnam and at Yokosuka, Japan, and later a colonel in the US Army's Medical Corps.[1] He was the founder and head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the Letterman Army Institute of Research from 1981 to 1991.[2][3]

Fairburn gives a good presentation and argument for use of wad cutters for .38 spl in self defense. The only downside is that a quick reload is faster with round slugs.

Short-barreled revolvers demand careful ammunition selection for best terminal performance. In this video I will test Lead Hollow point, Jacketed Hollow Point and lead wadcutter loads. What works best through heavy clothing?

[jdgabbard]

The gold standard for 38spl: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

Soft lead, driven fast, and delivers in 2" barrels. Makes 9mm a second class citizen.

[barnetmill]

The gold standard for 38spl: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

Soft lead, driven fast, and delivers in 2" barrels. Makes 9mm a second class citizen.

Interesting observation.
Short (2 to 2.5-inch) barreled revolvers have short ejectors. Those short ejectors typically used on 2-inch to 2.5-inch barreled revolvers are not long enough to fully eject 357 Magnum brass. So if you are forced into a situation where you need to reload your weapon under fire, you will find yourself picking your fired/empty 357 brass out of the cylinder one at a time -

I will have to try rapid ejection from snubnose guns. I was taught for rapid loading of a model 15 that has full length extractor to actually throw the empties over my shoulder by a long-time secret agent 25 years ago. One opens the empty gun with both hands and with the left eject and throw the empties over the right shoulder while the right hand pulls a speed loader from the belt and loads the cylinder and the both hand close the cylinder the gun is back in the right hand to fire more rounds.
I suspect one could also throw the empties out of snub nose gun if the ammo was standard pressure. In a J-frame I would go with the wadcutters due to the much lighter recoil.
When it comes to shooting bears I listen to Tim Sundles because he has done it a lot and exists in world where others have done it. Bears do not have guns to shoot back at you and use other means to kill. If he spent a life time in an urban area killing hoodlums I might listen to him a lot more on that topic.
I myself do carry 9x19 pistols with +P and even +P+, but they are lot easier to handle than a light wt .38 with a buffalo bore load.

[barnetmill]

The gold standard for 38spl: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

Soft lead, driven fast, and delivers in 2" barrels. Makes 9mm a second class citizen.

+P+ with a 115 grain bullet at about 1250- 1300 fps is not a second class combat bullet anywhere. I can fire such a gun faster and more accurately under combat conditions. I also have 15 rounds in the gun and when I reload it is with a 15 round magazine.

[jdgabbard]

+P+ with a 115 grain bullet at about 1250- 1300 fps is not a second class combat bullet anywhere. I can fire such a gun faster and more accurately under combat conditions. I also have 15 rounds in the gun and when I reload it is with a 15 round magazine.

I have found that ejecting with a snub is often more dependent on how you eject. A good downward slap on the ejector with the dominant hand while holding the cylinder in your off hand has always worked for me, when with a dirty gun, and sticky cases. But, your mileage may vary... For the record, I've got meaty hands with shorter sausage fingers....

As for 9mm +P+, it really just depends on what your carrying, both gun and ammo. In MY experience, you're not getting anywhere near that in compact 9mm. As an example, most of the +P+ ammo I have shot in my PF9 (what I normally pocket carry every day), has shown do closer to 1100fps. Not anything to turn your nose up at. However, I'll take a 158gr at 1050fps over a 124gr at 1100fps. It's just more energy... Though, as I mentioned, I typically carry 9mm every day. It's easier for me to carry it that a snub in my normal office garb. And since I'm proficient with both, it just makes more sense, even if the 38 has an edge over the 9mm.

[jdgabbard]

And for the record, I have not tried Buffalo Bore's 9mm loading. It may very well be as potent or more so than the 38spl loading. I just don't have any experience with it.

[barnetmill]

I would not fire +P+ in a PF9 and I have no idea if it rated for such ammo. I have one of those somewhere and I have not fired if for years. If I do it would be standard pressure 115 grain gold dot.
The smallest gun I carry is a G26 with a ~3.5 barrel. Ballistics with +P+ federal 115 grain is well over 1200 FPS.
Here in the photo below it averages 1248 fps second on a cold day. Remember with a snub .38 it is really intended for use in one handed holds, but two hands on the gun is more ideal. With the other hand you are likely fending off an attack. Unlike for a glock, you can and I recommend contact shot with the revolver when possible. A heavy recoiling small revolver at least for me is not easy to handle for combat shooting. I have slightly larger palms than average with shorter and slightly thicker fingers compared to my near male relatives. I know that a 1911 is easier on my hand than is a model 15 both with target loads. Polymer guns are even easier to control during recoil. The brits found out that ligher loads were much easier for soldiers to use in revolvers. They used low velocity 38 S&W but with a big bullet that would tumble when striking flesh. I do not know if you actually watched the Fairburn video where a lot of time spent explaining wounding ballistics in flesh.

Below tools and target. The ISP Knew The Way!...Federal Ammo 9BPLE +P+ 115 Grain 9MM Ballistic Gel Test & Review!
3.5 inch barrel ballistics
Screenshot 2025-09-03 at 10-15-12 (1) The ISP Knew The Way!...Federal Ammo 9BPLE P 115 Grain 9MM.jpg

[Der Gebirgsjager]

2" snubs:

If you're right-handed, you open the cylinder latch with your right thumb, turn the muzzle toward the sky, and slap the ejector rod forcefully which ejects the empties onto the ground. Some can do this with the trigger guard facing away from them with their left hand, more turn the trigger guard toward their body and slap the ejector rod with the right hand. Roll the muzzle forward, downward, in the left hand and insert a speed loader with the right hand. Drop the speed loader to the ground and close the cylinder with the left thumb.

Part of the problem in ejection of either .38 or .357 cases can be poor maintenance in that dirty cylinder chambers become sticky and resistant to easy ejection. Clean and polished chambers release fired rounds much easier. Throwing empties over your shoulder is wasted motion. I personally knew a law enforcement officer who was killed in a gun fight and his empties were found in his coat pocket, a habit he had picked up on the range to save having to later pick up the brass. You won't be needing the empty speed loaders again anytime soon either. If you live, you can pick them up after it's over.

Today's .38 Specials with today's improved loads and bullet designs will far outperform those of yesteryear. If ejecting .357s with their extra length is of concern, then carry .38s. If you carry a .357 revolver loaded with .38s for improved ejection, then it makes little sense not to carry a .38 sized revolver instead. If you carry a 4" barrel revolver with the longer ejection rod, then there is no problem for either .38s or .357s-- but the cylinder chambers should still be cleaned regularly. Nickel plated cases are another worthwhile
feature.

DG

[HWooldridge]

I use 4.0 grs of 231 under a 158 gr Keith SWC out of a 2” Smith, cast of straight WW alloy.

Have killed multiple raccoons and administered coup-de-gras to a couple of deer (neck or head shots at 7-10 steps after a first rifle hit). I only found one slug in the dirt and it was mushroomed - every one passed through and all critters DRT, nobody needed a second try.

[jdgabbard]

I would not fire +P+ in a PF9 and I have no idea if it rated for such ammo. I have one of those somewhere and I have not fired if for years. If I do it would be standard pressure 115 grain gold dot.
The smallest gun I carry is a G26 with a ~3.5 barrel. Ballistics with +P+ federal 115 grain is well over 1200 FPS.
Here in the photo below it averages 1248 fps second on a cold day. Remember with a snub .38 it is really intended for use in one handed holds, but two hands on the gun is more ideal. With the other hand you are likely fending off an attack. Unlike for a glock, you can and I recommend contact shot with the revolver when possible. A heavy recoiling small revolver at least for me is not easy to handle for combat shooting. I have slightly larger palms than average with shorter and slightly thicker fingers compared to my near male relatives. I know that a 1911 is easier on my hand than is a model 15 both with target loads. Polymer guns are even easier to control during recoil. The brits found out that ligher loads were much easier for soldiers to use in revolvers. They used low velocity 38 S&W but with a big bullet that would tumble when striking flesh. I do not know if you actually watched the Fairburn video where a lot of time spent explaining wounding ballistics in flesh.

Below tools and target. The ISP Knew The Way!...Federal Ammo 9BPLE +P+ 115 Grain 9MM Ballistic Gel Test & Review!
3.5 inch barrel ballistics
Screenshot 2025-09-03 at 10-15-12 (1) The ISP Knew The Way!...Federal Ammo 9BPLE P 115 Grain 9MM.jpg

Yeah, it's rated to +P. But it'll handle +P+, at least my example will. I bought it back when it was the new thing, nearly 20 years ago. Been a nearly daily carry gun since then. DEFINITELY has some recoil to it though, and requires actually shooting it often. As well as a piece of inner tube over the grip to dampen the bite into the web of the hand... I've been meaning to upgrade to a P365 for several years now. Just haven't gotten around to it. It serves it's purpose, and is so easy to conceal it makes carrying anything else look like a step backwards. It's one of those few examples of a cheap gun that definitely hits above it's price point.

As for revolver, I'm like you and find shooting two handed easier. But can't that be said for any pistol? I don't find shooting semi-autos easier. I find it more difficult, especially the 1911. My fingers are just too short to get a good grip on the weapon. But, I train with them none the less, and I am more than good enough to use one if needed. They're just not as comfortable in my hand as a revolver. But I can keep a cylinder in the kill zone at 20yrds with a snub. And for me that is what matters.

[barnetmill]

Yeah, it's rated to +P. But it'll handle +P+, at least my example will. I bought it back when it was the new thing, nearly 20 years ago. Been a nearly daily carry gun since then. DEFINITELY has some recoil to it though, and requires actually shooting it often. As well as a piece of inner tube over the grip to dampen the bite into the web of the hand... I've been meaning to upgrade to a P365 for several years now. Just haven't gotten around to it. It serves it's purpose, and is so easy to conceal it makes carrying anything else look like a step backwards. It's one of those few examples of a cheap gun that definitely hits above it's price point.

As for revolver, I'm like you and find shooting two handed easier. But can't that be said for any pistol? I don't find shooting semi-autos easier. I find it more difficult, especially the 1911. My fingers are just too short to get a good grip on the weapon. But, I train with them none the less, and I am more than good enough to use one if needed. They're just not as comfortable in my hand as a revolver. But I can keep a cylinder in the kill zone at 20yrds with a snub. And for me that is what matters.

I would only carry a snub j-frame .38 when it offered advantage over a small automatic. It is superior for very close bad breathe distances. It can fired for example while in a pocket and not jam. You can strike or jab with it and do contact shots. It can be in 32 calibers or 38/357. I would shy away from the .357 loadings. But if one is up to the recoil, blinding flash, and catastrophic noise, go for it.
A 1911 fits my hand like it was made for it. A double stack 1911 in .45 is a tad too large for me. I can shoot it, but the handling is poor.

[Thumbcocker]

Gun Sam, a YouTube channel, has aot of videos testing different loads in gel and with denim and masonite in front of the gel.

[barnetmill]

2" snubs:

If you're right-handed, you open the cylinder latch with your right thumb, turn the muzzle toward the sky, and slap the ejector rod forcefully which ejects the empties onto the ground. Some can do this with the trigger guard facing away from them with their left hand, more turn the trigger guard toward their body and slap the ejector rod with the right hand. Roll the muzzle forward, downward, in the left hand and insert a speed loader with the right hand. Drop the speed loader to the ground and close the cylinder with the left thumb.

Part of the problem in ejection of either .38 or .357 cases can be poor maintenance in that dirty cylinder chambers become sticky and resistant to easy ejection. Clean and polished chambers release fired rounds much easier. Throwing empties over your shoulder is wasted motion. I personally knew a law enforcement officer who was killed in a gun fight and his empties were found in his coat pocket, a habit he had picked up on the range to save having to later pick up the brass. You won't be needing the empty speed loaders again anytime soon either. If you live, you can pick them up after it's over.

Today's .38 Specials with today's improved loads and bullet designs will far outperform those of yesteryear. If ejecting .357s with their extra length is of concern, then carry .38s. If you carry a .357 revolver loaded with .38s for improved ejection, then it makes little sense not to carry a .38 sized revolver instead. If you carry a 4" barrel revolver with the longer ejection rod, then there is no problem for either .38s or .357s-- but the cylinder chambers should still be cleaned regularly. Nickel plated cases are another worthwhile
feature.

DG

''his empties were found in his coat pocket, a habit he had picked up on the range to save having to later pick up the brass.''
This has happened more than once. Bill Jordan gives an example of someone doing that during a cross border fire fight. The BP officer was not killed, but found out that all of his brass was in his pocket and he had no idea he had done so. You must train the way that you would fight.
Also remember another officer describing a gun fight to us when two goblins killed two CA HP officers. One of the dead officers prior to the day of speed loaders tried to load six into the his empty gun instead of one and was killed while reloading.
Over the shoulder is much faster and as I said I was shown by an old timer from the secret service. It is almost a blur of motion when it is mastered. But to each his own. And I do not use revolvers too much any more. Although last time I did kill something, a water moccasin, I used a short barreled .38 with a shot load. I had been looking for it for a couple of days after a new neighbor almost picked it up while cleaning up her yard.

[jdgabbard]

Gun Sam, a YouTube channel, has aot of videos testing different loads in gel and with denim and masonite in front of the gel.

I watch Gun Sam's channel quite often. I prefer his channel over "Tools & Targets" which is who the picture above is a post of. His testing, although I'm still not convinced is "real world", is FAR better than Tools & Targets' testing. I'm not certain how well the masonite emulates ribs, or the 2" of gel in front of it emulates the pectoral muscles. But it is a much better representation of a real world scenario, that is for sure.

Any time I go to look if a particular round has been gel tested, I look for Gun Sam's video first. The one thing I will say, he needs to get a better Chronograph. The one he's been using is trash...

[jdgabbard]

I would only carry a snub j-frame .38 when it offered advantage over a small automatic. It is superior for very close bad breathe distances. It can fired for example while in a pocket and not jam. You can strike or jab with it and do contact shots. It can be in 32 calibers or 38/357. I would shy away from the .357 loadings. But if one is up to the recoil, blinding flash, and catastrophic noise, go for it.
A 1911 fits my hand like it was made for it. A double stack 1911 in .45 is a tad too large for me. I can shoot it, but the handling is poor.

I don't disagree that it's better up close. I find it better in many other ways as well though. But that is precisely why there are so many variations on handguns and the cartridges they shoot. If just one of us was right, there'd only be one gun and one type of bullet.

[barnetmill]

I don't disagree that it's better up close. I find it better in many other ways as well though. But that is precisely why there are so many variations on handguns and the cartridges they shoot. If just one of us was right, there'd only be one gun and one type of bullet.

On single action if you eyes are still good, a quality snub .38/357 is just as accurate as its larger and longer barrel cousins when fired single action. For that matter a baby browning can also be a lot more accurate than many would believe.

Fairburn gives a very good explanation of where 10% gel come from and again it was Frackler that came up with it. And it is more for a comparison of one bullet to another. Its prediction on actual tissues is something else. I needed velocity for +P+ and tools and targets turns our videos like crazy and so was able to find it. He is prolific. I happen to like the late Paul Harrel's meat target a lot. If you are going low velocity I believe that the wad cutter is the most dependable for damaging tissues since it tends to cut tissue and not simply displaces or pushes it to the side. Tim Sundles of Buffalo bore will also tell you that as did Elmer Keith. But in a semiauto, the wadcutter will not feed and even the flatnose bullets can have problems in cycling.

[atfsux]

True,...the little snubbie is more accurate than you are. Your skill and eyes and calmness under fire are the weak point in accuracy with snubbies. Snubbies can be more of a challenge to shoot well,...but they are NOT inaccurate.

[Bigslug]

Worth the viewing for the attached link to Fairburn's matrix for converting milk jug test results into equivalent gelatin penetration. His "modifiers" to factor in damage to, but not penetration of, the final layers of jug plastic at the end of the bullet's travel is brilliant.

The snubbie problem is not unlike the .380 problem: there may be enough energy for penetration, or expansion, but maybe not both. The wide range of potential barrel lengths compounds the problem for load selection - if the manufacturer isn't saying it's a load for 2" guns, it was probably concocted with something else in mind.

Fairburn's on pretty solid ground with the wadcutter idea, but as stated, reloads are a problem. I dunno. . .having the first five be effective is probably a higher priority than planning for five not being enough, but there's nothing wrong with carrying five of one and five of something else. Winchester is loading what is basically a WFN full metal jacket 130 grainer that wouldn't be a shabby option either.

[rintinglen]

Worth the viewing for the attached link to Fairburn's matrix for converting milk jug test results into equivalent gelatin penetration. His "modifiers" to factor in damage to, but not penetration of, the final layers of jug plastic at the end of the bullet's travel is brilliant.

The snubbie problem is not unlike the .380 problem: there may be enough energy for penetration, or expansion, but maybe not both. The wide range of potential barrel lengths compounds the problem for load selection - if the manufacturer isn't saying it's a load for 2" guns, it was probably concocted with something else in mind.

Fairburn's on pretty solid ground with the wadcutter idea, but as stated, reloads are a problem. I dunno. . .having the first five be effective is probably a higher priority than planning for five not being enough, but there's nothing wrong with carrying five of one and five of something else. Winchester is loading what is basically a WFN full metal jacket 130 grainer that wouldn't be a shabby option either.

My thoughts precisely. Although I have abandoned my belief in magic bullets and one shot stops, I still look for enhanced expansion, where accuracy and penetration are adequate. I have carried wadcutters in a S&W 342 for years now, but my reloads are usually 125 grain JHPs or 158 LHP. Truth to tell though, I carry a reload not because I expect to run dry in the course of my encounter and be compelled to reload to finish the fight. That is not likely in the cards. But what does happen is that while you are waiting for the cavalry to arrive, the friends of the guy or guys you have subdued may decide to avenge them and you are now in a new confrontation. One in which you are well advised to have a full complement of ammo to deal with.

In 1988 I was driving through a rough neighborhood on the the way to my patrol area when I heard a gun shot and saw a Security Officer struggling with an individual over possession of a firearm. I called for back up, pulled over and joined in the struggle. The Security Officer and I were able to subdue the individual. The Guard related he had told the suspect to stop dealing drugs and leave the property, which he had; but then, the suspect had come back with a small auto pistol, either a 25 or 22, and fired a shot the shot that I had heard, narrowly missing the Security officer. I think the gun was a Lorcin, but I had no time to deal with the gun other than to take custody of it before a crowd of 20 or so individuals gathered around. They were yelling insults and demanding that we release the suspect. It appeared for several minutes that things might get out of hand, but the arrival of several additional officers soon quelled the incipient violent confrontation and the crowd was dispersed before we had a riot.

The suspect was booked for ADW, assault with a deadly weapon, which at the time was a "wobbler" either a misdemeanor or felony, but plead guilty to misdemeanor assault and served a very short time before getting back on the street. Had to love L.A. courts then. They didn't even tag him for discharging a firearm in the city limits.

[jdgabbard]

Worth the viewing for the attached link to Fairburn's matrix for converting milk jug test results into equivalent gelatin penetration. His "modifiers" to factor in damage to, but not penetration of, the final layers of jug plastic at the end of the bullet's travel is brilliant.

The snubbie problem is not unlike the .380 problem: there may be enough energy for penetration, or expansion, but maybe not both. The wide range of potential barrel lengths compounds the problem for load selection - if the manufacturer isn't saying it's a load for 2" guns, it was probably concocted with something else in mind.

Fairburn's on pretty solid ground with the wadcutter idea, but as stated, reloads are a problem. I dunno. . .having the first five be effective is probably a higher priority than planning for five not being enough, but there's nothing wrong with carrying five of one and five of something else. Winchester is loading what is basically a WFN full metal jacket 130 grainer that wouldn't be a shabby option either.

I've never felt I would necessarily be out-gunned with only 5 rounds. You gotta remember, 7-21ft & 3-5rds. That is the average distance and number of shots fired. With that said, the only caveat to that is if they're using a rifle. And at that point, unless you're carrying a rifle you're outgunned.