Questions for those of us using RCE style dies for .224

[DsGrouse]

The goal is 70 to 77 grain .224 flat base open tip bullets.

I thought I could get there with a .930 jacket.

But I am running into problems.

First problem:
The ejector punch is punching through the bullet when ejecting the bullet. One-third to half of my attempts yesterday were failures in this way.

The jacket's average weight was 18.8, and the core weight was 58.2. The problem I ran into here was that the lead was squirted out the open tip. I would still have strike-throughs with the ejector pin.

So, I dropped the core weight to 53.2 grains for a 72-grain bullet. However, I still had a difficult time ejecting the swaged bullets. In more than 20 of my sample runs, the ejection pin pushed through.

Yesterday, I dropped the core weight further to 50.2 grains for a 69-grain bullet, and my failure rate skyrocketed to nearly half.


Am I swaging it too deep into the die?

Second problem:

There are deformations at the ogive, creases, or dents, for instance. If I run less lube, the bullet sticks; if I run more lube, I get deformations and dents.

At first, I thought this was due to too much lube, and that may be part of it. But when I moved to less lube, the swage bullet stuck, and it either splits at the ogive of the ejector pin or pushes through.

Third symptom:

The open tip is massive. I thought I needed to swage the core seated blank far enough into the die to nearly close up the bullet tip. Then, the ejector pin would push against that closed-up portion of the jacket and eject it.

It seems like that isn't happening. If I lower the swage 1/3rd of a turn, lead squirts out the tip around the swaged bullet. If I back it off 1/2 a turn, the open tip is half again as large as the ejection punch. Anywhere in between those two might make a bullet.

Is it possible that I've set the ejection punch too long? That when I swage the blank, the bullet tip is swaging around the tip of ejector punch thus never closing the tip of the bullet? And since it is swaging around the ejection punch, the bullet is harder to eject, thus the higher instance of strike-throughs.

[Bills Shed]

Swaging those long .224” projectiles can be problematic. There is a lot of bearing surface against the side walls of the die. I too had the trouble of projectiles sticking in the die especially when making 70gn round nose projectiles.
My answer is a little more lube. It seems you have tried that and are getting dents so let’s go back a step.
I think you are applying too much pressure in the PF process.
As to closing up the tip, I would assume that you are applying a lot of pressure to close up the tip. As you squeeze that jacket into the PF die the pressure is really pushing into the side walls as well.
I will assume that when you core seat you end up with a finish diameter of about .223” ish, this is good.
I would suggest that when you are point forming you only press the projectile into the PF die until you just reach .2242” and then stop. Set your stops at this point. When setting up the die, check often. Yes, you will go through a 1/2 doz core seated projectiles but see how you go.
Does the projectile now eject easily at .2242”?
If so, you have your answer. You will probably find the tip is not closed up much at all and the solution there would be to get a longer jacket. A longer jacket will be forced deeper into the PF die, so a more closed tip without putting extra pressure on the side walls. We are only talking a jacket .040” longer.

When making my heavy 25gn, 17 cal projectiles, when I hit .172” diameter the projectile is not as closed as I would like and makes for a very big open tip. For the culling work I do, the wallaby do not care at all about this. I could make a longer jacket but they explode just the same.

Bill

[DsGrouse]

Bill,

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll put it to the test the next go-around!

[DsGrouse]

Bill, I backed off the die a fair bit. While the tip isn't closed up as I would like, the swaged bullets are ejecting, and my issue with creasing at the ogive has disappeared.

So, sometimes easing up is the solution.

Thank you.

[rolltide999]

As you discovered, using too much force or holding too long while core seating and point forming will not allow spring back which is critical to get the bullet to release from PF die.

Good job.

Sometimes less is more.

[DsGrouse]

As you discovered, using too much force or holding too long while core seating and point forming will not allow spring back which is critical to get the bullet to release from PF die.

Good job.

Sometimes less is more.

Ah. The core swage step might be part of the problem. I'll back off on the pressure and see where I end up. Thanks for all the help.

[DsGrouse]

As you discovered, using too much force or holding too long while core seating and point forming will not allow spring back which is critical to get the bullet to release from PF die.

Good job.

Sometimes less is more.

Ah. The core swage step might be part of the problem. I'll back off on the pressure and see where I end up. Thanks for all the help.

[Bills Shed]

Good to hear that you are getting it sorted.
Could I just confirm that the point formed projectile did get to .2242”?

Getting the core seat die set, is just as important as the PF. It is easy to over do it.
When core seating just find the point where the external diameter does not increase. Check often. If you put too much pressure into it, there are issues.
The lead will start to bleed past your top punch, smearing lead up the inside wall of the jacket, your jacket will stretch causing a weak point in the jacket walls, at the lead line, and they will be harder to eject.
Squeezing the lead against the internal side walls of the jacket expands the jacket to the die diameter. It will not get any bigger no matter how much pressure you apply. Cracking a die is a possibility. As lead has NO spring back, the jacket can not spring back either so excess pressure is just causing issues. Gently does it. I only run a D Corbin, S press and every operation except jacket making can be done with very little effort.

[DsGrouse]

Whelp. I've been given some advice, and after putting that advice to use, I've some much better samples.
0.930 jackets, and 58.2 grain lead core.

[Bills Shed]

What are your jackets?
I note some appear to have a line at the base showing where the rim might have been.
Some of the bases appear convex and others flat.

Bill

[DsGrouse]

Corbins (not RCE) .930 jackets.

[rolltide999]

Whelp. I've been given some advice, and after putting that advice to use, I've some much better samples.
0.930 jackets, and 58.2 grain lead core.

Now your talkin'. Great Job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bills Shed]

They are big heavy projectiles.
Judging by the one on the scale and the lead around the tip of others you are still having a lot of trouble ejecting them out of the die. Your ejection pin is leaving a decent divot in that tip. What type of lube are you using.
There seem to be a lot of rotary marks up the nose section of those projectiles.
Are they home made or Richard’s dies? It should be smooth from lapping.
Those rings at the base puzzle me. Are they there from the factory? seconds?
Rings are common from rim fire jackets when the punch is worn and does not iron out the rim properly.
Or is it a mark from the PF die??
Interested to hear your answers

[deltaenterprizes]

Thanks for the info, I didn’t know about the core seating pressure causing problems.
It may be the solution to my issue with my 6mm nose forming die similar to the OP’s .

[DsGrouse]

They are big heavy projectiles.
Judging by the one on the scale and the lead around the tip of others you are still having a lot of trouble ejecting them out of the die. Your ejection pin is leaving a decent divot in that tip. What type of lube are you using.
There seem to be a lot of rotary marks up the nose section of those projectiles.
Are they home made or Richard’s dies? It should be smooth from lapping.
Those rings at the base puzzle me. Are they there from the factory? seconds?
Rings are common from rim fire jackets when the punch is worn and does not iron out the rim properly.
Or is it a mark from the PF die??
Interested to hear your answers

I dont believe the jackets are seconds. I picked them up directly from corbins. (Not RCE)
I'm thinking that my ejection pin has slipped in the die. That is allowing the core and jacket to swage around the ejection pin.

That is likely the source of my ejection problems and bulging at the base.

I'm using RCE lube, but likely too much. When I noticed resistance during ejection, I applied more lube.

Much of the banding at the ogive wipes off, but in the photos, none of these are wiped down.

Richard was kind enough to expedite a couple of replacement pins for me. I appreciate him taking the time to do so.

He also forwarded me instructions for sizing the replacement pins.

Once I have them in place, I think I will be able to address most of my remaining issues.

[rolltide999]

Thanks for the info, I didn’t know about the core seating pressure causing problems.
It may be the solution to my issue with my 6mm nose forming die similar to the OP’s .

To really make your life easy as far as swaging goes, you want a little "spring back" in the core seating operation, AND a little "spring back" in the PF operation BOTH. This will help hedge your bets against any sub one thousands of an inch irregularity in the core seating process, jackets, etc. due to flaw in material, error in process, or wear. You just do not want an air void inside the seated core anywhere so you can't go too soft on core seating pressure either. You get a "feel" for it after a while. The core seating operation has a full bore ejection punch pressing on the bottom of the jacket, so even if you way over do it in the core seating operation and have no spring back, they will still eject, and it probably won't show up until the point forming operation where you have a small diameter ejection pin pressing against pure soft lead. The closer the tolerances are to being optimal for precision final product, as all RCE dies are, that sub one thou spring back in BOTH operations becomes really important. You could make the core seating die diameter smaller so spring back would not be so crucial to PF operation, but then the final bullet would be more inconsistent bullet to bullet. Richard optimizes everything for final product precision and consistency, which means your process in using his dies must be correct, consistent and precise as well. I had to learn all this the hard way too. If you need tips on removing stuck bullets from expensive dies without destroying your investment ..., well ... I won't tell you how or why I learned that (you can probably guess). Believe me when I say spring back is your friend. Take care of it at every turn, and it will take care of you.

@DsGrouse, those last bullets are pretty good looking coming out of point forming. I don't think the little irregularities in the lead at the tip makes much difference, but if you don't like the look of it you can use less lead or more jacket to conceal it. If you want a more closed tip, or consistent pristine tip, you will have to finish with a tip die after using point forming die. I have tip dies in some calibers, but if you close them up TOO much, they start to look like FMJ unless there is exposed lead, and that is usually no bueno as far as hunting regs go. Personally, I just shoot open tips like you have there most of the time, except for ELD bullets where I finish with a metal "ballistic tip" insert for very long range target shooting (300 WM or PRC, 338 Lapua, and 50 BMG.) There is even some recent ballistics research showing very fine points on metal ballistic tip inserts (and monometal target bullets) may need to be SLIGHTLY more blunt for best extended long range accuracy (something about a VERY fine point metal tip "stirring" turbulence into the air at the tip of the bullet in flight that the rest of the bullet then flies through.) I think this is only an issue where group sizes are measured with magnification and micrometers.

[DsGrouse]

Rolltide,

Thanks for the summary. I'll put it to good use this next week

[DsGrouse]

Sorry for the link to my post, but I don't have time today to make up a post for Fb, X, and various bulletin boards. It covers my basic issue with my most recent test swages.

https://evandeshais.substack.com/p/swaging-224-bullets