Accuracy testing standards?

[44MAG#1]

Decades ago,, when I took up handgun shooting,, I too had no mentor, or formal instruction. Of course,, there was no internet, or other immediate help. Books were around,, but often,, a bit confusing.
As such,, I developed some bad habits, & incorrect methods of handgun shooting that caused my abilities to suffer.

First off, if at all possible,, find a mentor or even pay a well known handgun instructor to at least teach you the PROPER basics of grip, stance, sight alignment, sight focus, trigger pull, follow-through, etc. It will be MUCH better than trying to break an ingrained, motor-memory skill that's incorrect.

That said, let's address your questions.
Group sizes. Normally they are measured at a specific distance, (say 25 yds) in both offhand & from a bench. Both techniques to properly do this are different. But they give you an idea of your potential & the gun's potential. And yes,, they are both carefully done in a slower, deliberate method. Speed is not your friend.

Action handgun shooters in a competition such as USPSA look at the fact that their scores are partially based upon speed. Scores are based upon speed AND accuracy. But the distances they most often shoot, combined with the size of the "A" zone scoring area can make for somewhat easier shooting than trying to get a tight group on a bullseye. But even in USPSA,, "Spray & pray" at top speed will not win.

So, by far,, I'd seriously suggest you look hard at finding an instructor or mentor with the credentials to at least give you the proper basics of how to shoot a handgun.

Very good advice. Find someone who is a good shooter who has good high scores or by observing them shoot, you will have to know what good shooting is first to be able to judge that, and get them to coach you.
I will say this that more accuracy is LOST by slouchy trigger control than ANYTHING ELSE.
You can have an accurate gun, accurate ammo, good stance, good grip etc. etc. etc. And ruin it all with IMPROPER TRIGGER CONTROL.
If you remember anything from all this is to remember IMPROPER TRIGGER CONTROL can and will ruin it all

[pettypace]

You can have an accurate gun, accurate ammo, good stance, good grip etc. etc. etc. And ruin it all with IMPROPER TRIGGER CONTROL.

AIMING IS USELESS! 3 Secrets To Great Shooting | Rob Leatham 6x IPSC World Champion!

[44MAG#1]

AIMING IS USELESS! 3 Secrets To Great Shooting | Rob Leatham 6x IPSC World Champion!

At across the room distances I agree.
Try that at 50 or 100 yards and see the results.
Just looking over the sights at 3, 5,7, 12 yards is enough to hit the BG. Try that at 25 yards on a 25 yard NRA slow fire target or a 50 yard slow fire NRA target.

[El Bibliotecario]

AIMING IS USELESS! 3 Secrets To Great Shooting | Rob Leatham 6x IPSC World Champion!

I don't even want to imagine what his bathroom must look like.

Seriously, that depends on what one is doing. For IPSC shooting, it obviously works well. Its been my observation that shooters who excel in rapid shot placement at close range often suffer a degradation of accuracy at 25 yards.

[dtknowles]

I will say this........If anyone thinks shooting 5, 6, 8 inch groups offhand standing using a two hand hold shooting slow fire at 25 yards is good......

I think shooting consistent 5 inch groups offhand at 25 yards with a handgun that shoots consistent 3 inch groups off a rest at 25 yards is good. You are not going to be better than the gun and ammo. I don't see many people at the range doing better than that.

I don't shoot groups offhand, offhand I shoot targets, either steel plates, combat silhouettes or bullseyes. I don't measure groups I total the scores. A plate is either down or it is not. Combat it is either in the kill zone or it is not. On bullseyes, hopefully it is 9s, 10s or X's. On a bullseye, a nice 1 inch group out at the 7 and 8 ring is horrible. A 3 inch group centered on the x is much better. I know that I am not good, but I am the best among my peers at the range. When I shoot my Ruger MKII offhand I put one of those shoot and see, 3 inch bullseyes out at 25 yards and try to keep all 10 shots on the bull. I always miss at least 1 but often the group is smaller than 3 inches just not perfectly centered. At least 2 of the 3 inches of dispersion is me, the gun shoots under an inch at 25 yards with almost any ammo.
I think what you consider good on a lame, acceptable, good, better, best, scale is more in the range of better and best.
Tim

[44MAG#1]

AIM or AIMING: point or direct (a weapon or camera) at a target.
So if he is pointing the gun at the target he is aiming. Maybe not PRECISION aiming but he is aiming.
One could hold the gun sideways style and aim along the slide but it is still aiming or pointing the gun at the target.
I could do that and head shoot a IDPA target at 7 yards.

[44MAG#1]

I think shooting consistent 5 inch groups offhand at 25 yards with a handgun that shoots consistent 3 inch groups off a rest at 25 yards is good. You are not going to be better than the gun and ammo. I don't see many people at the range doing better than that.

I don't shoot groups offhand, offhand I shoot targets, either steel plates, combat silhouettes or bullseyes. I don't measure groups I total the scores. A plate is either down or it is not. Combat it is either in the kill zone or it is not. On bullseyes, hopefully it is 9s, 10s or X's. On a bullseye, a nice 1 inch group out at the 7 and 8 ring is horrible. A 3 inch group centered on the x is much better. I know that I am not good, but I am the best among my peers at the range. When I shoot my Ruger MKII offhand I put one of those shoot and see, 3 inch bullseyes out at 25 yards and try to keep all 10 shots on the bull. I always miss at least 1 but often the group is smaller than 3 inches just not perfectly centered. At least 2 of the 3 inches of dispersion is me, the gun shoots under an inch at 25 yards with almost any ammo.
I think what you consider good on a lame, acceptable, good, better, best, scale is more in the range of better and best.
Tim

If you can't group your shots offhand how can you sight in? If you put up a steel plate and shoot at it 5 or 10 rounds don't you group your shots on the plate?

[dtknowles]

If you can't group your shots offhand how can you sight in? If you put up a steel plate and shoot at it 5 or 10 rounds don't you group your shots on the plate?

The steel plate is plates, a plate rack, 6 plates that fall over when hit. I paint the plates with a fresh coat before the first round so when they are reset you can see the impacts and see if I am trending one way or the other. After a few resets it is hard to keep track of the impacts. I don't wait for a cold range between rounds, the plates can be reset from the firing line.

As far as sighting in. I sight in on sandbags and then make any adjustments needed for offhand base on my judgement of what caused the shots to fall where they do. If I am consistently low or high or right or left I will adjust the sights. Most of my guns have been sighted in for years so I hesitate to make sight adjustments for result offhand as they are probably me pulling or pushing the shot not the sights being the problem. I don't shoot handguns off a rest much these days. My guns are sighted in and my ammo is loaded or the load is already developed. I spend my range time working on my shooting technique. Sight picture, recoil control, trigger control, follow through, recapure and repeat. Right now I have two hand gun shooting interests. First is how fast can I clean the plate rack with my 9mm EAA Witness and how often can I hit the 100 yard steel with my Dan Wesson .357 Max. both offhand. Right now Plates is like 12 seconds and 100 yard steel is about 50%

Tim

[44MAG#1]

The steel plate is plates, a plate rack, 6 plates that fall over when hit. I paint the plates with a fresh coat before the first round so when they are reset you can see the impacts and see if I am trending one way or the other. After a few resets it is hard to keep track of the impacts. I don't wait for a cold range between rounds, the plates can be reset from the firing line.

As far as sighting in. I sight in on sandbags and then make any adjustments needed for offhand base on my judgement of what caused the shots to fall where they do. If I am consistently low or high or right or left I will adjust the sights. Most of my guns have been sighted in for years so I hesitate to make sight adjustments for result offhand as they are probably me pulling or pushing the shot not the sights being the problem. I don't shoot handguns off a rest much these days. My guns are sighted in and my ammo is loaded or the load is already developed. I spend my range time working on my shooting technique. Sight picture, recoil control, trigger control, follow through, recapure and repeat. Right now I have two hand gun shooting interests. First is how fast can I clean the plate rack with my 9mm EAA Witness and how often can I hit the 100 yard steel with my Dan Wesson .357 Max. both offhand. Right now Plates is like 12 seconds and 100 yard steel is about 50%

Tim

So you sight in using a rest then final tweaking offhand. I sight in offhand because I have enough confidence in my shooting to do so.
But I understand each has his own ways.
How big is the 100 yard steel? Do you shoot rapid fire or slow fire at it?
Do you shoot groups off bags while sighting in or just a couple at a time while adjusting the sights?

[Thumbcocker]

Accuracy is a three legged stool. Gun, shooter and load. A poor shooter will not shoot well with a good gun shooting excellent loads.

When you reach the point where you can tell that the gun/load combination are not giving you what you are holding for you have made progress.

Some guns just plain won't shoot. If you have one of those get it fixed or get rid of it. A gun that won't shoot well after a reasonable amount of load development will ruin your confidence.

A gun and load that you know will shoot well makes things simple. All you have to do is shoot up to the gun's capability. And all that takes is consistency. You can be told the basics of stance, grip, sights and trigger in a few minutes. Then spend the rest of your life trying to get it right.

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[44MAG#1]

What is the definition of "All you have to do is shoot up to the gun's capability. And all that takes is consistency.".
Do I take that to mean if one has a Bullseye set up 1911 that will shoot consistent 3 inch 10 shot groups at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest that shooter will be able to do that if he does everything correctly eventually?
Would that ever happen?

[dtknowles]

So you sight in using a rest then final tweaking offhand. I sight in offhand because I have enough confidence in my shooting to do so.
But I understand each has his own ways.
How big is the 100 yard steel? Do you shoot rapid fire or slow fire at it?
Do you shoot groups off bags while sighting in or just a couple at a time while adjusting the sights?

The 100 yard steel is about 8 inches wide and 12 inches tall but I have not measured them and they change them from time to time as they get torn up by rifles shooters. They don't have a standard.

I shoot groups when sighting in and doing load development. Usually, chronograph the loads and check for group size looking for the right load. I adjust the sights then so that it shoots to the sights. When I have settled on the load, I will shoot at targets offhand to see if the sights need more adjustment and then I shoot steel. This is sort of hypothetical; the loads are on the shelf and the guns are sighted have been for years. That is for the Witness and the SuperMag. It is different with other guns. The .22's no load development. I don't resight them in on the sandbags when I change ammo or decide to shoot other ammo. Again, last time I touched the sights was years ago. I just shoot them and if they don't seem to be shooting to the sights I adjust them or just hold off. I have some fixed sight guns that I just hold off (Kentucky Windage).
I mostly do what I feel like doing. This is recreation, it is supposed to be fun not stressful.

I also shoot benchrest both jacketed and cast. 6mm PPC and 30 BR. I shoot for score so I adjust the scope every time I shoot them. Sometimes I shoot sighters during a string. Sometimes I adjust the sights for windage and sometimes I hold off. I do shoot groups sometimes especially with cast because I am still trying to improve my ammo precision. Jacketed I am working more on my technique and reading the wind. Tiny things are important when shooting tiny groups.

Tim

[Thumbcocker]

The journey is the destination. The point i was trying to make is that when the shooter knows that they are the weak link it eliminates the other concerns. They stand or fall on their own. It was a bit tounge in cheek.

For example all you have to do to win in NASCAR is go fast and turn left better than the other drivers. Simple right?

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[ACC]

I've been giving some thought to handgun accuracy these past few months, actually many years before now.

The "Standard" test for accuracy was done at 25 yards back in the late 70's when I began handloading. If I recall correctly, any brand name decent gun was expected to shoot a 3" group at 25 yards. It seems that standard has fallen by the wayside. I'll head over to Youtube to watch reviews about various handguns. Once the smoke has cleared, it seems 7 yards is about the limit for the majority of those testing some of the newer handguns. If it will hold a group of less than 2-2.5"s it's deemed awesome. Okay, I get it. The vast majority of those doing the testing never plan on having to shoot it past that distance, even if it's a full sized 1911 or 4" revolver. My 69 year old eyes (with corrective lens) won't allow me to do that even off sandbags these days. I do realize many carry the smaller concealable various 9's and 380 Autos with 3" barrels.

So, what is your acceptable accuracy standard for your CCW handgun? I am fully aware that most self defense encounters take place from point blank point of contact out to around 20 feet. But, there's always exceptions and no guarantees it will.


Murphy

All my accuracy tests with hand guns are at 30 meters. Less than 2 inches standing is what I look for.

ACC

[44MAG#1]

All my accuracy tests with hand guns are at 30 meters. Less than 2 inches standing is what I look for.

ACC

That is great shooting. Not many can shoot almost all 10's at the 50 yard line on an NRA 50 yard slow fire target which is your equivalent at 50 yards
Great post.
This is not meant as a snarky post.
Please don't take it that way.

[dtknowles]

All my accuracy tests with hand guns are at 30 meters. Less than 2 inches standing is what I look for.

ACC

What guns do you have that meet your requirements. Will you share maker, caliber and model?

Tim

[pettypace]

... At 50 yards ... some old Remington Target Master WCs I had left over from my PPC days back in the late '70s ... went into a nice group 1.95" wide and just over 3" tall......hmmmmmm.

Very close to Hatcher's data from the 1930s:



(From Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, page 393.)

[44MAG#1]

Very close to Hatcher's data from the 1930s:



(From Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, page 393.)

Wonder how those shooters would have done offhand standing ?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Is there an app/program such as VIRGEL that could be developed that would give us that answer?
Just plug in a few numbers and then look at the results?

[Rich/WIS]

IIRC when I went through training taught by the FBI it was stated that the average range in shooting incidents was 7 yards. Also interesting was how many shots MISSED at that range. To my way of thinking worrying about group size is second to its, and your, ability to hit with your carry gun. Hunting and precision target shooting have the tightest requirements with dinging steel plates somewhere in the middle. Whatever the accuracy requirement the biggest variable is your shooting skill.

[contender1]

The comments about Rob Leatham above are interesting.
I have seen Robbie shoot. And while he holds so many titles & awards that many would be envious of,,, he also admits to doing things a bit differently. BUT,, he can also shoot open sights, at 100 yds, and outshoot most people. He did a show on Shooting Gallery a few years ago, and they had "shoot-offs" where they would all shoot at steel, at a distance. Starting at one distance,, most were able to hit steel on their first shot. Then they would all back up 5 yds or so & start over. If you missed, you were eliminated. It got down to around 100 yds,, and Robbie beat them all.
Robbie has developed his skills, to what works best for HIM. And he too will admit that sights are necessary for accuracy. It depends upon the type of shooting, and the amount of practice & several other factors that affect accuracy. His quote above & his explanation go together,, for SOME types of shooting.
Watch the TV,, when they are advertising Springfield Armory. When they show Robbie shooting, you will see that in slo-mo, he doesn't blink, flinch or anything. Yet,, watch other shooters & you will see blinking, flinching & other things that can & will affect serious accuracy.

Just last night, I was watching TV & I think it was G&A TV, that was highlighting a Springfield 1911 in 45 acp. They actually stated the group size AT 25 YDS. I was expecting them to not list the distance,, or if they did,, it would have been closer.