Paper patching the .303 British

[tacklebury]

I'm really struggling to find any of the few .303 bullets in .312 with weights I'm interested in. Has anyone attempted to paper patch .308 leads to work in the .303 british? Just a curiousity question.

[grullaguy]

Yes I have. I had my best success in sizing them down to .304” and then patching up to .314”.
A final sizing at .314” for concentricity, and a bit of paste wax applied. ( actually I lubed first to aid sizing the pp bullet )
I shot an elk a number of years back with this recipe.

[andrew375]

I am currently playing with pp in my mosin,.3145" groove diameter. Bullets are the Lee 200gr..308 and the 155gr tl. I use them as cast. After patching I lube with briwax furniture polish and push through my .315" sizer. Accuracy isn't great but it's looking promising.

[beemer]

I haven't done any in a while but I sized cast to .308 and used 2 wraps of tracing paper to get .316. I then lubed with Lee alox and sized to .314. I have also paper patched jacketed .308 bullets to .312 and shot them in the Brit. Like I said I haven't done it in a while and don't remember all the numbers but it can be done. It is very time consuming. Accuracy is as good as anything else if done properly.

[Nobade]

303 Guy should show up before too long here. He's the master of patching for those rifles.

[longbow]

I made a push out mould for PP boolits for my .308 which worked well and accuracy wass good. The mould cast at 0.301". However, when I tried paper patching for my .303's using the same cast boolit but thicker paper to suit the .303's accuracy was poor. I thought maybe the boolit was undersize since the general approach is to use a bore size to a thou or two over bore size boolit then patch to groove diameter and my .303 bore is 0.303". So I tried knurling those boolits to 0.303"/.0.304" then paper patching to groove diameter and that worked for me.

I wasn't sure whether it was the diameter increase or the knurling... or a bit of both but it worked. Having read posts where people have trouble with "slicks" and paper patches slipping I am thinking a bit of both.

My boolits were cast from ACWW so possibly a softer alloy would have responded differently.

I didn't do a lot of paper patching for the .303's so no significant experience beyond that.

I'd start with a boolit sized to bore diameter or a thou or two over then patch to groove and try that. Alternately you could patch then size to groove diameter after which seems to work for some people.

Longbow

[gunwonk]

+1 to beemer.

I have an old P-14 with about .3125" groove diameter, and roughly .318"-.320" throat. Lately I've been taking pretty much any .30 cal bullet, sizing it to .310", paper patching, and then sizing the patched bullet to .316" and loading it into a .303 cartridge that's been resized, and run through a .317" expander.

Sizing the bullet first helps get the outer surfaces even, which makes it easier to put the patch on straight. Patching w/ 2 layers of ~.004" paper increases the patched bullet diameter to .320" or more, which might be okay for my throat -- actually I've fired them like that, from an unsized case, and it works okay -- but sizing the patched bullet again, to .316", makes it seat nicely, with good neck tension, in .303 cases that have been through my .317" neck expander. Also, sizing after patching seems to bond the patch onto the bullet a little. Unrolling one of those patches, and looking at things, shows the paper surface texture lightly swaged into the surface of the bullet, which I'd imagine helps prevent the patch from slipping. So, all in all, I've pretty much settled on this process.

At least a couple of these techniques are a bit Off The Reservation, but I have evidence that my pressures are perfectly safe -- fired primers stick out of the case head a few thou -- and I've had the experience of hitting 9 out of the 10 two hundred yard silhouettes at a recent BCPR match, which most likely wouldn't happen if the load was no good.

(What's a P-14 doing at a BCPR match? Another whole story.)

I haven't mentioned any loading data, partly because tacklebury didn't say what kind of rifle, and the SMLE's can be a little weird with reduced loads, but also because I'm using a filler (to prevent leading, rough bore), which is a completely different subject, probably not appropriate here.

BTW, "hi" to 303Guy. Look!! I got it working! (Hope you & yours are well and happy.)

[303Guy]

Hi gunwonk. Good to see folks having success with 303's. I'm busy trying to get my old faithful to reproduce what it did a number of years ago. It gets me to the range a lot.

I have tried patching 30 cal bullets but didn't have much success. They seated in the necks just fine but range results were not great. I'll try sizing the patched bullets and see if that helps. I shall load a few for next range session.

tacklebury, I have tried Lee 180's patched but no success. I have the mold and it casts well so it makes sense to use it. But then I also have a few smooth side molds that cast well enough. I'm concentrating on just one mold at the moment. The boolit is shorter than the Lee 180 which makes it easier to seat to chambering length. I can also vary the length. To lighten the casting, I have made a pouring 'funnel' that produces a wide hollow nose. This would also make it a good game boolit, I think. The idea of shortening it is to give the boolit some jump so as not tocant on entering the bore. But the longer boolit seems to fire concentrically anyway but at lower velocity. As soon as I try to push it up, it shoots badly, whereas the shorter boolit seems to be Ok at higher velocities. I now have a harder alloy that alloys the heavier boolit to be shot at higher velocity.

[Milky Duck]

some folks have had sucess just using .308 calibre projectiles as they are....... you can also get away with,if your lucky,projectiles meent for the wee x39mm cartridge,normally in 123grns...

[303Guy]

I'd love to be able to shoot the 123 grns. I did try some once and had poor results. Those were .311. I have tried seating a .30 bullet in a paper hand towel cup in an unsized neck. Didn't work well. I have had success doing that with a .312 bullet. Or maybe it was it a 180grn. I actually found some .311 bullets which are now on order.

Here are some pics of 180gr Lee boolits, knurled and patched. I rolled these examples for the pic but I had previously loaded one and fired it.


Here I rolled the patch so as not to impress it into the lube grooves with the idea that the patch will cut through the full length.


Here is some of the recovered patch. That's all I could find. Those pieces are the nose wraps which seems to have come off OK and were close to the muzzle.

I left the tail loose like that with the idea that the pressure at the muzzle would blow whatever is left of the patch off. Since I didn't see any more of the patch than what I found, I would say that idea might have worked. I previously rolled the patches on so that they hugged into the grooves and rebate - those did not perform.

I used 24gr of H4895 for that one test round. The boolit was seated in an unsized case neck which required seating in the press so a nice firm fit. I seat the boolits to the line which allows the boolit to be firmly engaged in the leade. The bore-ride section of the core is 0.298 and the patched diameter is about groove diameter toward the muzzle. The throat on this thing is big! A .308 bullet drops in quite far.

Since that one round gave mild pressure and burned the powder cleanly, I'll be loading up a few more of those to see how they group. Maybe two sets with an increase in powder charge. I'll only get to the range in another three weeks and by then I should have several different loads loaded for testing.

[andrew375]

Update on using the patched Lee 155gr tl bullet in the mosin. Yes, I know 7.62x54 isn't .303 British but they are similar enough to be relevant in this situation. I am using the bullets as cast (.3125") and pass them through a .314" sizing die to fix the gas checks and wrap 2 turns of baking parchment (.006"). Following wrapping they are lubed with 50/50 beeswax and vaseline and pushed through the .314 sizer again. I was getting encouraging results with AA2 but a bit erratic. I have found slower powders, Vectan Tu2000 and Lovex S065 giving better results. At the moment my loads are barely breaking 2000 fps so I think they aren't producing enough pressure to burn these powders properly. I'm currently going up the loads until I lose accuracy.

On the plus side the barrel, well worn is the kindest thing to say about it, is looking really smooth and clean. The annoying thing is that I still need to use gas checks. Groups without gas checks are noticeably worse, with some shots off the target, than those with.

[longbow]

Have you considered the NOE clones if the NRA paper patch designs?

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/prod...303-178-sp-g1/

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/prod...303-218-sp-g2/

Or are they not in the weights you want?

Longbow

[BJung]

This post is slightly off topic from the OP but relevant. Here is a copy of the response I was sent for the same need as yours.

The Lee 170 FNGC mold can easily be honed. My bullet, after honing drops .3125” and I can size/check bullets at .3105” for 30-30, 30-06 or 3125” or 7.62X39
Search Honing Lee molds. I use the mold and cast with a hex nut on top of the mold with the sprue plate open and pour lead through the nut hole to fill it to brim. This makes a cast honing tool that can be turned with a wrench. I apply powdered pumice and dish soap made into a paste to the driving bands on the tool. Close, take 2 turns with light handle pressure. Open, remove tool and flush only mold cavity. Close tool back in and take 20 turns. Flush, warm the mold and cast a bullet then measure the bullet. This may take 5-10 cycles of abrading and lots of washing but make a cast bullet to check every Cycle so you don't go bigger than you want. My mold originally dropped .309” but now makes great bullets I can size for several rifles. I hone my sizing dies too to get just the size I want. A simpler method accomplishes that.

[gunwonk]

some folks have had sucess just using .308 calibre projectiles as they are.......

I tried this (with jacketed .308's) in my P14, and had success for about 2 years, then suddenly all the .308's would keyhole. I suspect shooting .308's through my .3125" barrel caused gas cutting in my throat and rifling, until .308's would strip instead of spin. I don't recommend it. At least not for long.

....... you can also get away with,if your lucky,projectiles meent for the wee x39mm cartridge,normally in 123grns...

I've done this too, and as far as I can tell they work fine. (Even after the bad news with .308's above, .310's sort of fixed it.)

Actually, it wasn't all bad news. I won a match by keyholing one through the X ring. They gave me the T-shirt, but said I wouldn't be allowed to do that again.

[Flygrimm]

I'm going to resurrect this thread as I too am paper patching for the .303 for my P-14.

Rifle is an Eddystone P-14 made in 1915 and re-barreled with a Criterion a while back. The rifle shoots way better than I can.

I'm shooting at 50 yards to start. That way I can at least catch all the shots if the group is ridiculous.

My first experiments are using the Lee C309-180-R using a mix of clip on and stick on wheel weights dropped into a bucket of water. BHN is probably in the 10-12 range. I do not have a hardness tester so I'm jus guessing here.

Powder is IMR 4198. I started at 20 grains and the results were very bad. Only 2 of the 5 shots were captured by the Labradar and those velocities were 1684 and 2191 FPS. Right at the bottom of the rifle range. The others were probably to slow to be captured.

I scratched my head for a while and decided that the velocity was too low to stabilize the boolit. I upped the charge to 25 grains (and raised the rear sight a bit) and boy was I surprised. I put 14 shots into 2.25". For me that's pretty good shooting. The ES and SD was terrible but at least I got a group.

My goal is to get these paper patched boolits to around 2500 FPS. So I upped the charge to 26, 27, and 28 grains. Each of these 5 shot groups has an ES of less than 22 FPS and the worst SD was 7.5.

The 26 grain load shot the best with all 5 shots touching, 4 in a horizontal with the fifth touching low. Just under 1" at 50 yds. The other two loads opened up to right at 2". No signs of leading.

Next up was 29, 30 and 31 grains. The numbers for the 29 grain load were comparable to the previous 3 with an ES of 14 and an SD of 6.1. Group size was about 1.25". Average was 2139 FPS.

The 30 grain load was awful opening up to just under 4" shotgun pattern and the ES was 50 because 1 shot was significantly higher than the rest. Average was 2224 FPS.

The 31 grain load fared a bit better at just under 2" for 4 of the shots. The 5th shot was a crazy high flyer. Average went up to 2285 FPS.

Went home and ran the borescope down the barrel and discovered that there was some leading starting to show around the last 1/3rd of the barrel. Probably why the groups opened up so bad at the end. It wasn't that bad, only a smearing look but probably enough to affect accuracy. I'm also guessing that I'm exceeding the speed of the lead hardness around 2100-2200 FPS.

My theory is that 1) my boolits are too soft and 2) that the patch isn't wrapped high enough around the ogive to keep the lead from contacting the barrel.

So here are my first questions.

I have seen that anything over about 6% Antimony makes the boolits too brittle. Harrison recommends a BHN of 16-20 (P. 94 Cast Bullets E. H. Harrison). Using the Lead Alloy Calculator I found somewhere on this forum a 20.5 pound mix of lead, antimony and tin is estimated at 16.0 BHN using 5 pounds of Rotometals super hard, 15 pounds of lead and 0.5 pound of tin. That is 7.32 % antimony. Is this an acceptable amount or will the bullets break up unexpectedly? BTW I'm not hunting, just punching holes in paper.

Does water quenching increase hardness significantly and if so can it be estimated? And is quenching long lasting or do the boolits soften over time?

Longbow suggested the NOE clones of the NRA paper patch mold a few posts above. I have been waiting over 2 years for this mold. I have spoken to the poor guy at NOE several times. He cannot get anyone to operate his machinery. He recently had a guy mostly trained up who quit and went to a better paying job. I'm not sure if I will ever be able to get this mold. Frankly I'm surprised that he is still in business.

I really want to try the NRA design because it has a pointier ogive. I think wrapping higher up will be easier than with the stubby round nose of the Lee design.

Please let me know your thoughts and I'll keep everyone updated on my progress.

Stuart

[longbow]

If you want a cheap hardness tester try the pencil test method:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...pencils/page13

I bought a Staedtler drawing pencil set for $14 and the results seem to be reliable based on testing pure lead and clip on wheel weights against the chart numbers.

What is you bore diameter"

What is your groove diameter?

What diameter is your cast boolit?

Are you siziing before patching, after patching or at all?

Are you wet patching or dry patching?

As noted, what worked for me was to ensure the cast boolit was at or a little over bore diameter then patch to groove diameter. I did not size. I chose a paper thickness to suit.

For my .308 I used the as cast bullet at 0.301" then patched to groove diameter and that gave quite good results without much work. For the .303 that 0.301" bpplit wasn'[t working even when patched to groove diameter. So I tried knurling to bring the diameter up to 0.303"/0.304" then patched to groove and that worked. This is with ACWW and wet patching.

I have to think a standard .30 cal. bullet at 0.308"/0.309" would need fairly thin paper at 0.0015" to 0.002" thick or if using thicker paper that the patched boolit should be sized to suit the groove diameter after patching. The patched bullet should be at groove diameter ot a thou or so over groove diameter. My guns all run about 0.314" groove diameter as far as I can measure. I size cast GG boolits to 0.315" and that works well.

I didn't know NOE was having problems. I see he has the 0.301" moulds in stock but not the 0.303" moulds. You could knurl the 0.301" boolits up but you need a knurler to do that. Accurate Molds could make you a 0.303" mould but it would be a small FP boolit.

Not sure this is helping you at all!

If you are stuck using a 0.308"/0.309" boolit try patching to groove diameter +0.001"/0.002" or patching larger than groove diameter then size to groove diameter.

Longbow

[steveu]

FWIW,
I am using 9 pounds of WW and 1 pound of Lino with my ddpp bullet for my bpcr rifle. The bullets I have recovered show no slumping at all. I also wet patch them, folding the paper over the base.

[beemer]

I dug around and found some noted from PPing for the Mosin-Nagant. I have 91/30 with a good bore. I sized to .308, patched to.316, lubed with LLA and sized to .314. The Lee 180 was under 3 inches for 5 shots at 100 yds. Load was 44 grains of W760. I chronoed a 45 grain load at 2380 fps. I think the boolits were wheel weight.

Another interesting thing was two loads I ran over the chrono, a jacketed 180 and a PP180 with 40 grains of IMR 4064. The jacketed was 2140 and the PP was 2290. My notes do not have group size but poi was same for both loads.

[steveu]

I dug around and found some noted from PPing for the Mosin-Nagant. I have 91/30 with a good bore. I sized to .308, patched to.316, lubed with LLA and sized to .314. The Lee 180 was under 3 inches for 5 shots at 100 yds. Load was 44 grains of W760. I chronoed a 45 grain load at 2380 fps. I think the boolits were wheel weight.

Another interesting thing was two loads I ran over the chrono, a jacketed 180 and a PP180 with 40 grains of IMR 4064. The jacketed was 2140 and the PP was 2290. My notes do not have group size but poi was same for both loads.

Could be the pp has more bearing surface and the diameter of the bullet being larger than the jacketed caused the increase in velocity. I tried a .0005” thicker paper and got 30 fps gain in velocity.

[Fitz]

I just purchased a 303 savage lever gun model 99 and just trying it with paper patched and having great results . more accurate than most of my other 30-30 levers this one is showing great possibilities with paper patching . 200 gr and 150 gr bullets .