All electric pickup. Still not buying it.

[MrWolf]

I grew up in the Panhandle of Texas (Massive Oil Industry Presence) and Propane was quite common for powering Pick Up Truck by Farmers and Oil Field Workers. In the 1960's and 1970's it was common for Automotive "Parts Stores" to sell carburetor conversion kits allowing one to run both gasoline and Propane in the P/U; by simply turning a switch that controlled where the fuel came from. Oil service companies basically got the Propane almost free from the Producers. We used to run "Propane" John Deere Tractors (called Popping Johnies) in the 1960s' and even into the 1970's and early 1980's as Propane was far less expensive than Gasoline (Which was cheap back then) - even considering Propane has less BTU energy than Gasoline the Price of Propane in the area made it economically sound.

Current bulk user prices for "Non-Road-Use" Propane in rural Montana is $2.25 per "Gallon". 87 Octane Gasoline sells for about $3.50 a Gallon. Propane has about 76% of the energy found in Gasoline. Converting for BTU based price comparison between Gasoline and Propane yields a $2.66 Gasoline price to $2.25 for Propane. Propane on the surface looks cheaper; but if one considers the Federal & State "Road Use Tax"; the costs would be almost the same or slightly more for Propane.

Sample Btu conversion factors
Energy source/fuel Physical units
Electricity 1 kilowatthour = 3,412 Btu
Natural gas 1 cubic foot = 1,037 Btu
Motor gasoline 1 gallon = 120,286 Btu2
Diesel fuel 1 gallon = 137,381 Btu3
Heating oil 1 gallon = 138,500 Btu4
Propane 1 gallon = 91,452 Btu
Wood 1 cord = 20,000,000 Btu5


I bring this up because most of the Federal and State Revenue for Roads has been built into the price of Gasoline and Diesel as embedded Tax in the price at the Pump. Often the use of "Propane", Farm or Factory produced Ethanol not in the commercial stream yet, or... all avoid the "Road Use Taxes"; thus giving a lower cost in the comparison - BUT... the States and Federales will make changes to the Tax Structure when they see any measurable loss of Revenues. It's coming for Electrical Vehicles!!!

My neighbor was just telling me she renewed her vehicle registration around Thanksgiving time. She was on hold for quite awhile and kept hearing the same message over and over. Regular vehicle registration is $50 (round numbers), hybrid registration is $100, and electric vehicle registration is $200. They will tax you any way they can including adding per mile charges. It is coming soon.

[shdwlkr]

didn't read all the posts but electric vehicles mileage is terrible in winter even if you can get from point a to point b. What does it take to make an electric vehicle? fossil fueled companies. How to produce enough electric power for these vehicles? What to do with the batteries when it is time to replace the old one? How many charging stations nation wide are needed? what is the charging time? How many electric semi's, how many planes? how many ships? Is our military going electric? The Greenie's just have not looked at the big picture and what we must give up to go totally green. How will crops be grown, shipped to your local store? Ok I am off my soap box as I need to find a way to recharge it.

[BJK]

biteme wants to get us all into those ridiculous electric monstrosities sometime in the future. he's such a believer that he's leading by example and he's driven around in one. Of course he isn't, he's a hypocrite (on top of everything else he is; senile, liar, bought by the Chinese, the list is very long). But he wants YOU to drive one, just not himself or the other beautiful people in power.

[Handloader109]

My dad had a for pickup he had a twin set of propane tanks that would fit under his tool box in the bed of his f150. Ran that truck off of propane for a number of years. He also had two tractors, Massey Ferguson, 90 and 85 hp that ran off of propane. No issues at all as long as you filled them up at 4 or 5% left. 1958 and 1962 models. Never had to change the oil. It was always almost pristine. Well, every 5 or 6 years... Brother still has and runs them.

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[Idaho45guy]

Answer is: Your EV Tax is about 43% higher than the current Federal and State Road Use Tax!!

12,000 miles a year. Divide the $240.00 annual fee by the 12,000 miles per year. This yields an EV Tax of $0.02 (2 cents per mile). At 35 "MPG" for Federal & State Road Use Tax collected by the gas station on all sales, Divide $0.49 (49 cents) by 35 and you get $0.014; or 1.4 cents per mile Road use Tax. The STATE ONLY EV Road Use Fee is considerably HIGHER than the existing Federal and State Road Use Tax.

Thank you for doing the math for me!

I imagine that for folks like me that drive a lifted SUV that averages 15 mpg, the EV tax is not as severe.

[Idaho45guy]

My dad had a for pickup he had a twin set of propane tanks that would fit under his tool box in the bed of his f150. Ran that truck off of propane for a number of years. He also had two tractors, Massey Ferguson, 90 and 85 hp that ran off of propane. No issues at all as long as you filled them up at 4 or 5% left. 1958 and 1962 models. Never had to change the oil. It was always almost pristine. Well, every 5 or 6 years... Brother still has and runs them.

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When I lived in Iowa in 1998, I had a 1979 F150 2wd Supercab with a 400m V8 and a 120 gallon propane tank in the bed.

At the time, propane was around $.85 per gallon, and regular unleaded was $.98 per gallon. I did the math and figured out that I was losing money running propane due to the lower MPGs.

Removed the tank and weird carb attachment thingy.

Might have a picture of that pickup somewhere...

Attachment 293166

[Lloyd Smale]

biteme wants to get us all into those ridiculous electric monstrosities sometime in the future. he's such a believer that he's leading by example and he's driven around in one. Of course he isn't, he's a hypocrite (on top of everything else he is; senile, liar, bought by the Chinese, the list is very long). But he wants YOU to drive one, just not himself or the other beautiful people in power.

yup they want us peddling bicycles while they fly in private jets. Us to have solar panels covering our whole yard to power our small 3 bedroom home while they live in a mansion with more bathrooms then i have rooms period. Drive an electric smart car while they ride around in there benz's and bentleys. I say ride around because they dont even drive. I say any one of those idiots that wants to vote for any new green deal bs policy should have to show proof that they are totaly green themselves. By the way biden has a dirty burning old 60s corvette. Dont see him trading it off for a tesla!!! Harris doesnt even know how to plug in an electric car but wants to shove them down our faces. At least on this forum people understand. I go on one other outdoors forum that has many liberal (cant use the word or id get banned). Heck even on the dodge challenger forum I go on that youd think would be most muscle car guys theres people there cheering for an electric challenger. BLOWS MY MIND! Hope they know the electric fairy because if the liberals get there way and gas cars are banned electricity will be rationed and hands down the most expensive bill you pay. Probably higher then even your house payment.

[Lloyd Smale]

When I lived in Iowa in 1998, I had a 1979 F150 2wd Supercab with a 400m V8 and a 120 gallon propane tank in the bed.

At the time, propane was around $.85 per gallon, and regular unleaded was $.98 per gallon. I did the math and figured out that I was losing money running propane due to the lower MPGs.

Removed the tank and weird carb attachment thingy.

Might have a picture of that pickup somewhere...

Attachment 293166

journeyman lineman that worked for me had a 96 silverado that had a propane conversion. It paid for a while then propane prices went up and he ran into the same deal as you. Fuel economy wiped out the savings in fuel. Might work at todays prices though but i havent seen conversions for these new cars and trucks and it would surely require a computer tune and most computers are locked so you would void your warantee doing it. Then i doubt if it would work with the new direct injection systems. But thats just a guess as i have no clue. Id think if it was possible it would be being done. It would definitely extend the life of motors because he could go 10k between oil changes and his oil still looked like new. Lot cleaner burning. But sadly we probably wont know. With biden shutting down NG pipelines and wanting to ban fossil fuels the idiotic liberals would never be satisfied with switching to propane. Heck there trying to shut down a pipeline up here and just that overnight would raise gas prices so high youd be right back where you were in the 90s.

[Lloyd Smale]

Look at this for what it really is. They want our guns and they want to control where and when we can be mobile. Keep us at home struggling to heat them and to put food on our table so they can push there agenda which is total control. SOCIALISM pure and simple.

[MUSTANG]

Someone commented on being a "Muscle Car" web site member and how many were "Energized" over the emerging EV Market. I will tell you; in my youth I had cars with a 427 engine and a big Holley 4 barrel Carburetor; and a 396 engine with a big Holley 4 barrel Carburetor. The Tesla acceleration leaves the memories of those two in the dust. Coming home from Spokane; we were behind a Tourista Pickup Truck towing a 30 foot Travel Trailer with all the Hazards flashing for at least 20 miles - one of those that would speed up every time there was a Straight-a-way keeping the backed up traffic from passing. I got a section of road where I could see far enough forward where I felt comfortable trying to pass; and I never before experienced acceleration like the Tesla had on passing that P/U and Travel Trailer. Not sure yet if the Tesla overcomes all of the negatives we have discussed.

[BJK]

Not even Li-Ion cells like the cold. And heating cabin air uses lots of juice. We had a Prius and would watch the mileage drop when the cold weather arrived. Loved the Prius BTW. Then covid arrived and the like China joes empty store shelves the car lots emptied out too, or I'd be driving a new Prius today.

BTW, I used to love pulling up to a match and pulling out the weaponry. People think Prius owners are all tree huggers; not so. We bought one because the Toyota hybrid system as found on the Prius just makes sense.

[megasupermagnum]

Someone commented on being a "Muscle Car" web site member and how many were "Energized" over the emerging EV Market. I will tell you; in my youth I had cars with a 427 engine and a big Holley 4 barrel Carburetor; and a 396 engine with a big Holley 4 barrel Carburetor. The Tesla acceleration leaves the memories of those two in the dust. Coming home from Spokane; we were behind a Tourista Pickup Truck towing a 30 foot Travel Trailer with all the Hazards flashing for at least 20 miles - one of those that would speed up every time there was a Straight-a-way keeping the backed up traffic from passing. I got a section of road where I could see far enough forward where I felt comfortable trying to pass; and I never before experienced acceleration like the Tesla had on passing that P/U and Travel Trailer. Not sure yet the Tesla overcomes all of the negatives we have discussed.

I deal with people like that all the time. I never could wrap my head around what compels a person to accelerate when you try and pass them. Highway 55 in Minnesota is the worst. Not a lot of straight sections, 60mph speed limit, but no matter what, you always come up on someone doing 50 mph who then tries to race you when you pass. The worst was one time I got behind some guy doing 40 mph, but in every conceivable passing spot, he would absolutely floor it. After taking his license plate number, and since I've driven this road a million times, I knew a good passing spot up ahead. I downshifted and floored it before the corner, and hoped nobody was coming. Thankfully nobody was, and I got around him. There's a special place in hell for people like this.

[Lloyd Smale]

Someone commented on being a "Muscle Car" web site member and how many were "Energized" over the emerging EV Market. I will tell you; in my youth I had cars with a 427 engine and a big Holley 4 barrel Carburetor; and a 396 engine with a big Holley 4 barrel Carburetor. The Tesla acceleration leaves the memories of those two in the dust. Coming home from Spokane; we were behind a Tourista Pickup Truck towing a 30 foot Travel Trailer with all the Hazards flashing for at least 20 miles - one of those that would speed up every time there was a Straight-a-way keeping the backed up traffic from passing. I got a section of road where I could see far enough forward where I felt comfortable trying to pass; and I never before experienced acceleration like the Tesla had on passing that P/U and Travel Trailer. Not sure yet if the Tesla overcomes all of the negatives we have discussed.

well honestly ive driven muscle cars all my life. Gas powered ones today make the 60s and 70s muscle cars look lame. My 392 challenger is 500 hp as it sits. It would whoop my ls6 chevelle which was considered one of the fastest muscle cars of the day. Now thats throw in a hell cat or a zl1 camaro or a gt500 mustang. There in a differnt universe. If your buying an electric because 800 hp isnt enough for you and are willing to sit at a charging station for a couple hours on a trip have at it.

Keep in mind that stated range of electrics like the high power teslas is for cruising down the road. Id bet you drain one down in a heck of a hurry unleashing 800 plus hp and it would take a heck of alot longer wait at the charging station then a chev spark. As to towing trailers for the price of a tesla truck you could have a 3/4 ton diesel truck that wouldnt even know that camper was behind you and have plenty of money left over to buy fuel for years. Bottom line is today electrics just are practical. Theres not enough charging stations, they take to long to charge with home charging stations and to get real performance your talking major bucks. Then try to sell it in ten years when the batterys which are very expensive are in need of replacement. Id bet you about couldnt give away a tesla truck thats 10 or 15 years old. Then like BJD said they never talk about operating in COLD enviroments. The extra drag on the drive train. Heating the inside and reduced battery power when its cold. Then we will throw in the biggest problem of all. theres absolutely no way our power grid can support charging a car or even two in every home. to do it it would cost tax payers (many that dont want it) massive amounts of tax dollars to upgrade the entire electrical grid from the (coal fired) Power plant to the service going into your house.

So when you try to justify the electrics you need to figure that most people will need a bigger service and transformer at minimum and at least for the power company i worked for for 40 years that cost is yours not the power companys. To me its about like a non reloader looking for his first deer rifle and choosing a 303 instead of an 06. Might be just as good but good luck finding ammo. Make the ammo available first then bring out the rifle and i have no argument. If we can find a cheap way to produce clean power it might make more sense. But what there asking us to do today is to pay more taxes so hippys can pretend there green. You watch what happens to electric rates when electric cars a mandatory. Look at the fact youll way all day in line to get to the charger then an hour or two charging. Just saw on fox yesterday that the average electric bill in NYC is over 600 dollars a month. I couldnt afford that let alone twice that much and that would probably be a conservative guess with the electrical grid we have today.

[Handloader109]

Yah gotta realize Brandon's big wet dream, multitrillion dollar green new deal socialist spending bill had a few hundred billion to put in charging stations. All free, at government's expense. Once those are installed, it'll be Teslas for everyone. Oh, and also included is extension of the program to give tesla a big check to help you pay for that new electric. $7 or 8 k per car rebate.... No wonder musk is a rich man. must be nice to get that free government money. That is probably 2 to 3 times the wages for each car produced. Take that away, and sales will plunge

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[10x]

Wife worked with a woman who bought a Chevy Volt. During the summer she would come to work and brag about not buying gas. The first sub-freezing day she was late for work. Got three miles from her house and the battery died.

The chemical reaction that frees electrons in batteries starts to slow down at 0F.
It is -30C outside right now. Unless that battery in your electric pickup or car is warm, you ain't going no where and you are going to sacrifice distance for cabin heat.
There is no free lunch

[DocSavage]

In all honesty I can't see the ICE being replaced anytime soon. As some one mention earlier there's no way an electric tractor trailer is going to haul supplies of various types from one coast to the other not unless there's a miracle battery tech that no one is talking about.

[shdwlkr]

Yes there is a miracle battery it is in the minds of those who think going totally green is a good idea. PS these batteries are known for massive discharge when challenged

[rbuck351]

Until they come up with a nuclear generator that weighs in under 400lbs to power and EV, I'm sticking with my nasty old diesel Dodge Cummings. Even then, how can I smoke out someone following to close?

[jonp]

Very nice. My hunting camp is 10miles off the road and 30 miles to town which has no chargers. My camp has no power, either. What use is this to me?

[rbuck351]

What use is an EV to anyone that lives way outside a large city or is into traveling to remote areas?